{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6094", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6094, "subject": "Pike/Oreb", "messages": 38, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-11-01T17:29:22+00:00", "last": "2011-11-10T02:52:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T17:29:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused\nabout the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. I know\nthere was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt\nwant to chime in until I read it. Thing is I still have no clue as to\nwhat to make of it. Anyone out there have any idea what to make of\nthat sequence?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T17:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "larry miller wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused\nabout the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. I know\nthere was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt\nwant to chime in until I read it. Thing is I still have no clue as to\nwhat to make of it. Anyone out there have any idea what to make of\nthat sequence?\n\n My conclusion a while back is that it wasn't actually Patera Pike he saw,\nbut his older self astral-traveling back in time, and bringing Oreb along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The BOTSS novels show Silk using this ability quite a bit.\n\nI have a short article discussing that and other theories about the\napparition on the Wolfe Wiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LakeOfTheLongSun.TheHolyGhost" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320170220.75873.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T17:57:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/1/11, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 10:50 AM\n\n\nlarry miller wrote\n\nStarted reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused\nabout the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. I know\nthere was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt\nwant to chime in until I read it. Thing is I still have no clue as to\nwhat to make of it. Anyone out there have any idea what to make of\nthat sequence?\n?My conclusion a while back is that it wasn't actually Patera Pike he saw, but his older self astral-traveling back in time, and bringing Oreb along. The BOTSS novels show Silk using this ability quite a bit.\n\nI have a short article discussing that and other theories about the apparition on the Wolfe Wiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LakeOfTheLongSun.TheHolyGhost\n\nDave, I really like your interpretive work on Evil Guest and there, and I agree 100%. Remember what Krait said, \"Paradoxes explain everything ...?since they do, they can't be explained.\"\n\nalso, I think you, if the Wiki is all you, are dead right on the Mucor as doll in the dream state. Have you read Talk of Mandrakes? Also, I am somewhat confident later in Exodus from the Long Sun the black and blue tunic of Silk indicates some kind of causal confusion when he is present but have not been able to trace it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB048F5.10603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T19:31:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2011 12:50 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nlarry miller wrote\n\n Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused\n about the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. I know\n there was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt\n want to chime in until I read it. Thing is I still have no clue as to\n what to make of it. Anyone out there have any idea what to make of\n that sequence?\n\n My conclusion a while back is that it wasn't actually Patera Pike he \nsaw, but his older self astral-traveling back in time, and bringing \nOreb along. The BOTSS novels show Silk using this ability quite a bit.\n\nI have a short article discussing that and other theories about the \napparition on the Wolfe Wiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LakeOfTheLongSun.TheHolyGhost" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My only discrepancy with the description of the \"Silk astra-projecting \nthrough time\" theory is that it attempts to explain away Silk's \nmis-identification of himself as Pike in that \"he didn't get a clear \nlook at the face\".\n\nI don't personally find that to be compelling. The text doesn't imply \nthat Silk *thinks* it looked like Pike.\nIf one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake an older version of himself (although \nprobably slightly altered in astral-travel) for Patera Pike?\" all kinds \nadditional plot elements suggest themselves.\n\nAlso, I think the problematic time-line in tBotSS suggests that \nastral-travel always has a potential for time-travel.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB04F01.3020100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T19:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB048F5.10603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (01-11-2011 19:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake an older version of himself (although\nprobably slightly altered in astral-travel) for Patera Pike?\" all kinds\nadditional plot elements suggest themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. Like, all of Pike, not only the astral one, being Silk. Making Silk \nyou-know-who's father." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320177540.2515.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T19:59:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB04F01.3020100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that means Astral Silk and Rose have to get it on. I just don't want to follow that to its end. Has Silk aged enough to be \"older\" than he should be in Short Sun? Living the past with fine fine Maytera Rose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/1/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 12:56 PM\nJames Wynn wrote (01-11-2011 19:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake an older version of\nhimself (although\nprobably slightly altered in astral-travel) for Patera\nPike?\" all kinds\nadditional plot elements suggest themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah. Like, all of Pike, not only the astral one, being\nSilk. Making Silk you-know-who's father.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB04FE6.1050407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T20:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "larry miller wrote (01-11-2011 17:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused\nabout the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. I know\nthere was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt\nwant to chime in until I read it. Thing is I still have no clue as to\nwhat to make of it. Anyone out there have any idea what to make of\nthat sequence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't think they did well to answer you, because their answer, \nregardless of being correct or not (and they have by no means convinced \neveryone, though they have their arguments), betrays/requires/gives away \nplot elements from the Book of the Short Sun which you shouldn't really be \naware of while reading the Book of the Long Sun (unless you'd read them \nyourself, of course).\n\nIn short, no one has any idea what to make of that sequence [using only the \nmaterial that precedes it]. So don't worry." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320179300.29758.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T20:28:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB04FE6.1050407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/1/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 1:00 PM\nlarry miller wrote (01-11-2011\n17:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im\ntotally confused\nabout the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks\nroom. I know\nthere was some mention of this last week in a few\nposts but I didnt\nwant to chime in until I read it. Thing is I\nstill have no clue as to\nwhat to make of it. Anyone out there have any\nidea what to make of\nthat sequence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't think they did well to answer you, because\ntheir answer, regardless of being correct or not (and they\nhave by no means convinced everyone, though they have their\narguments), betrays/requires/gives away plot elements from\nthe Book of the Short Sun which you shouldn't really be\naware of while reading the Book of the Long Sun (unless\nyou'd read them yourself, of course).\n\nIn short, no one has any idea what to make of that sequence\n[using only the material that precedes it]. So don't worry.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, there are really only three possibilities, and none of them could be guessed at that point. The properties of mainframe and the appearance of those who are gone, time travel, or mistaken identity/visions/shape changing. Oreb flying around when his wing is broken is strange.\n\nNo conclusion is proferred concretely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320187622.57654.YahooMailNeo@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T22:47:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB048F5.10603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In view of Antonio's post, maybe I should give this a SPOILER WARNING." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/1/2011 12:50 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: \nlarry miller wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused about the appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. “I know there was some mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt want to chime in until I read it. ?Thing is I still have no clue as to what to make of it. ?Anyone out there have any idea what to make of that sequence”\n?My conclusion a while back is that it wasn't actually Patera Pike he saw, but his older self astral-traveling back in time, and bringing Oreb along. The BOTSS novels show Silk using this ability quite a bit.\n\nI have a short article discussing that and other theories about the apparition on the Wolfe Wiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LakeOfTheLongSun.TheHolyGhost" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My only discrepancy with the description of the \"Silk astra-projecting through time\" theory is that it attempts to explain away Silk's mis-identification of himself as Pike in that \"he didn't get a clear look at the face\". \n\nI don't personally find that to be compelling. The text doesn't imply that Silk *thinks* it looked like Pike.\nIf one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake an older version of himself (although probably slightly altered in astral-travel) for Patera Pike?\" all kinds additional plot elements suggest themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk for Master Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera?P., but such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me. Pike and Malrubius were authority figures, now dead, in regard to Silk and Severian (as I remember). Is the idea that many people will see astral Silk that way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I think the problematic time-line in tBotSS suggests that astral-travel always has a potential for time-travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly not the kind of thing you can rule out. I haven't tried to look closely at the times of Silk's astral appearences as people have suggested.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T23:44:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320187622.57654.YahooMailNeo@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was my first impression also that Pike was Silk from the future\nin astral form. Do you really think that Wolfe knew that far ahead\nwhat would happen to Horn/Silk in Short Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/11, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nIn view of Antonio's post, maybe I should give this a SPOILER WARNING." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/1/2011 12:50 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nlarry miller wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Started reading Lake of Long Sun last night and Im totally confused about\nthe appearance of Patera Pike and Oreb in Silks room. “I know there was\nsome mention of this last week in a few posts but I didnt want to chime\nin until I read it. ?Thing is I still have no clue as to what to make of\nit. ?Anyone out there have any idea what to make of that sequence”\n?My conclusion a while back is that it wasn't actually Patera Pike he saw,\nbut his older self astral-traveling back in time, and bringing Oreb\nalong. The BOTSS novels show Silk using this ability quite a bit.\n\nI have a short article discussing that and other theories about the\napparition on the Wolfe Wiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LakeOfTheLongSun.TheHolyGhost" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My only discrepancy with the description of the \"Silk astra-projecting\nthrough time\" theory is that it attempts to explain away Silk's\nmis-identification of himself as Pike in that \"he didn't get a clear look\nat the face\".\n\nI don't personally find that to be compelling. The text doesn't imply that\nSilk *thinks* it looked like Pike.\nIf one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake an older version of himself (although\nprobably slightly altered in astral-travel) for Patera Pike?\" all kinds\nadditional plot elements suggest themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk for\nMaster Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera?P.,\nbut such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me. Pike and\nMalrubius were authority figures, now dead, in regard to Silk and Severian\n(as I remember). Is the idea that many people will see astral Silk that\nway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, I think the problematic time-line in tBotSS suggests that\nastral-travel always has a potential for time-travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's certainly not the kind of thing you can rule out. I haven't tried to\nlook closely at the times of Silk's astral appearences as people have\nsuggested.\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T13:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB048F5.10603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't personally find that to be compelling. The text doesn't imply\nthat Silk *thinks* it looked like Pike. If one asks, \"Why did Silk mistake\nan older version of himself (although probably slightly altered in astral-\ntravel) for Patera Pike?\" all kinds additional plot elements suggest themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I think the problematic time-line in tBotSS suggests that astral-travel \nalways has a potential for time-travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that there are problematical *incidents* which haven’t been explained, but that the main storyline actually sticks quite firmly to a non-time travelling version of astral travel, which is instantaneous regardless of distance.\nI suppose one could put forward the hypothesis that Silk(+X) ranges freely in time when he is by himself, or with just Oreb. Perhaps he only brings a party along to keep him anchored, lest he become lost in the Corridors! \n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1BE0D.5050108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:02:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320187622.57654.YahooMailNeo@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2011 5:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFor instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk for Master Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera P., but such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, it is difficult to get around the explanation that Silk and Pike \nare brother clones.\nThe clincher for me is Silk's two-page struggle with why he called Blood \n\"son\" even though THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2011 6:44 PM, larry miller wrote:\nThat was my first impression also that Pike was Silk from the future\nin astral form. Do you really think that Wolfe knew that far ahead\nwhat would happen to Horn/Silk in Short Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had to know what the inhumi were there for and why Quezel wanted a \nhuman colony on Green. So he had a good idea of the differences between \nthe two planets. There is also the foreshadowing in Silk's conversation \nwith Horn, his ability to mimic Silk and such. So, yeah, I think Wolfe \nknew that Horn would become Silk. He didn't know if the SS volume would \nbe published. But he knew generally what would happen if it were.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T00:11:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1BE0D.5050108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah that makes sense. Right after I posted that I started to wonder\nif maybe Wolfes original intention with Short Sun was similiar to Urth\nof New Sun. If thats the case maybe all of Long Suns mysteries could\nbe solved by looking to Short Suns text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/11, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/1/2011 5:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk\nfor Master Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera\nP., but such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it is difficult to get around the explanation that Silk and Pike\nare brother clones.\nThe clincher for me is Silk's two-page struggle with why he called Blood\n\"son\" even though THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO.\n\nOn 11/1/2011 6:44 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That was my first impression also that Pike was Silk from the future\nin astral form. Do you really think that Wolfe knew that far ahead\nwhat would happen to Horn/Silk in Short Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He had to know what the inhumi were there for and why Quezel wanted a\nhuman colony on Green. So he had a good idea of the differences between\nthe two planets. There is also the foreshadowing in Silk's conversation\nwith Horn, his ability to mimic Silk and such. So, yeah, I think Wolfe\nknew that Horn would become Silk. He didn't know if the SS volume would\nbe published. But he knew generally what would happen if it were.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nDave, I really like your interpretive work on Evil Guest and there, and I agree 100%. Remember what Krait said, \"Paradoxes explain everything ... since they do, they can't be explained.\"\n\nalso, I think you, if the Wiki is all you, are dead right on the Mucor as doll in the dream state. Have you read Talk of Mandrakes? Also, I am somewhat confident later in Exodus from the Long Sun the black and blue tunic of Silk indicates some kind of causal confusion when he is present but have not been able to trace it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for checking out my other commentary files on WolfeWiki. Yes, the\none on Mucor as the dream doll is mine. I have read \"Talk of Mandrakes\" but\nI didn't think of the monster in that story as being like an inhuma.\nInteresting thought. I haven't looked into the tunic colors of Silk. I will\ncheck that out some time soon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320356664.43717.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1BE0D.5050108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/1/2011 5:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk \nfor Master Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera P., \nbut such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it is difficult to get around the explanation that Silk and Pike are \nbrother clones.\nThe clincher for me is Silk's two-page struggle with why he called Blood \n\"son\" even though THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read that passage quite differently from you. What's your evidence for a\n\"struggle\"?\n\nI'd think it more accurate to say that he thing that Silk tries to explain to\nhimself is why he said \"sir\", not why he said \"my son\". In fact, he seems to\nhave been trained or to have worked out ways to address older or higher-status\nmen more respectfully than \"my son\". The reason he comes up with for his\nswitch makes sense. If we think he's hiding another reason from himself, one\npossibility is that he switched from \"sir\" to \"my son\" after he went from begging\nto doing an augur's job of explaining something about the Outsider to a layperson.\nHe might hide this from himself because it might feel like sinful pride to him. I\ndon't see any hint that he unconsciously sees Blood as something like his son\nin a physical sense or that Wolfe is inventing this to give us such a clue.\n\nAnd what about Severian's mistaking Silk's astral appearance for Master\nMalrubius's ghost? There's no doubt about that, I take it. I'd think that gets\npriority as something needing explanation, and that the explanation for it\nmight shed some light on Silk's mistaking his future astral self for Patera\nPike.\n\nIncidentally, there's a possible discrepancy in the theory that Pike's ghost is\nSilk's future astral self. The only description of Oreb's astral appearance I\ncould find is as a fat bird up to Silkhorn's belt (RttW, Ch. 17). The young Silk\nwould hardly call that \"Oreb\" without further comment. I suppose one could\nsay that Oreb was big to contain the version of Scylla, and that after she was\nremoved from him, he would have looked like his normal self. However, Hoof\ngoes along on that expedition, when Cilinia is separate from Oreb, and doesn't\ncomment on any change in Silk, unless I'm missing something.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320358041.71592.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:07:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n\n\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 12:31 PM\n\n\nThanks for checking out my other commentary files on WolfeWiki. Yes, the one on Mucor as the dream doll is mine. I have read \"Talk of Mandrakes\" but I didn't think of the monster in that story as being like an inhuma. Interesting thought. I haven't looked into the tunic colors of Silk. I will check that out some time soon.\n\n\n\nNot like the inhuma at all. Like the trees that eat trees that eat trees/vanished people." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB311ED.7030506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:13:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320356664.43717.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (03-11-2011 21:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn\nOn 11/1/2011 5:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For instance, is it connected with Severian's mistaking the astral Silk\nfor Master Malrubius? We can take Severian to be a son or clone of Patera P.,\nbut such a relationship with Master M. is a bit much for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me, it is difficult to get around the explanation that Silk and Pike are\nbrother clones.\nThe clincher for me is Silk's two-page struggle with why he called Blood\n\"son\" even though THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read that passage quite differently from you. What's your evidence for a\n\"struggle\"?\n\nI'd think it more accurate to say that he thing that Silk tries to explain to\nhimself is why he said \"sir\", not why he said \"my son\". In fact, he seems to\nhave been trained or to have worked out ways to address older or higher-status\nmen more respectfully than \"my son\". The reason he comes up with for his\nswitch makes sense. If we think he's hiding another reason from himself, one\npossibility is that he switched from \"sir\" to \"my son\" after he went from begging\nto doing an augur's job of explaining something about the Outsider to a layperson.\nHe might hide this from himself because it might feel like sinful pride to him. I\ndon't see any hint that he unconsciously sees Blood as something like his son\nin a physical sense or that Wolfe is inventing this to give us such a clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're quite right, but I feel there's more to it than that. Though I don't \nknow what." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what about Severian's mistaking Silk's astral appearance for Master\nMalrubius's ghost? There's no doubt about that, I take it. I'd think that gets\npriority as something needing explanation, and that the explanation for it\nmight shed some light on Silk's mistaking his future astral self for Patera\nPike.\n\nIncidentally, there's a possible discrepancy in the theory that Pike's ghost is\nSilk's future astral self. The only description of Oreb's astral appearance I\ncould find is as a fat bird up to Silkhorn's belt (RttW, Ch. 17). The young Silk\nwould hardly call that \"Oreb\" without further comment. I suppose one could\nsay that Oreb was big to contain the version of Scylla, and that after she was\nremoved from him, he would have looked like his normal self. However, Hoof\ngoes along on that expedition, when Cilinia is separate from Oreb, and doesn't\ncomment on any change in Silk, unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're missing the part where - iirc - Silk/Horn explains that Oreb's spirit \nis similar to a human being's, so 'astral Oreb' has quite a lot of \nanthropomorphic features, which missing part strenghtens your point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB31547.4030006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:27:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320356664.43717.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 5:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI'd think it more accurate to say that he thing that Silk tries to explain to\nhimself is why he said \"sir\", not why he said \"my son\". In fact, he seems to\nhave been trained or to have worked out ways to address older or higher-status\nmen more respectfully than \"my son\". The reason he comes up with for his\nswitch makes sense. If we think he's hiding another reason from himself, one\npossibility is that he switched from \"sir\" to \"my son\" after he went from begging\nto doing an augur's job of explaining something about the Outsider to a layperson.\nHe might hide this from himself because it might feel like sinful pride to him. I\ndon't see any hint that he unconsciously sees Blood as something like his son\nin a physical sense or that Wolfe is inventing this to give us such a clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I understand the theory, the idea is simply that Wolfe deliberately \nhighlights the meaning and usage of \"son\" in Silk's thoughts regarding \nBlood, spending 2 pages on it, to wave a small flag. The reason for \nSilk's thoughts don't much matter---they may make perfect sense and tell \nus much about him.\n\nSilk himself has no reason to think Blood is \"his\" son because he lacks \nPike's memories. But Silk is not signalling, Wolfe is. The clue (if it \nis) remains readable: Blood = Silk's son. In what sense? In a purely \ngenetic sense (if Silk = Pike), as well as the other sense Silk ponders.\n\nNaturally this alone is not enough to build a case on, just a pointer if \none is already looking, i.e., if one is looking for confirmation of an \nalready-observed pattern." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB31B8E.2060009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:54:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320356664.43717.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 4:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI read that passage quite differently from you. What's your evidence for a\n\"struggle\"?\n\nI'd think it more accurate to say that he thing that Silk tries to explain to\nhimself is why he said \"sir\", not why he said \"my son\". In fact, he seems to\nhave been trained or to have worked out ways to address older or higher-status\nmen more respectfully than \"my son\".\nThe reason he comes up with for his\nswitch makes sense. If we think he's hiding another reason from himself, one\npossibility is that he switched from \"sir\" to \"my son\" after he went from begging\nto doing an augur's job of explaining something about the Outsider to a layperson.\nHe might hide this from himself because it might feel like sinful pride to him. I\ndon't see any hint that he unconsciously sees Blood as something like his son\nin a physical sense or that Wolfe is inventing this to give us such a clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wish I had put it as succinctly as David. The exposition is peculiar. \nAs is often the case, I think Wolfe has a remarkable ability to provide \nexposition on multiple channels at one. There are many times Wolfe has \nhis characters chattering on about something that seems barely relevant \nand in an overly verbose way and suddenly I have an epiphany that as the \ncharacter speaks, Wolfe is there, in the same spot. He is speaking the \nsame words but he is looking at me, the reader, from the corner of his eye." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what about Severian's mistaking Silk's astral appearance for Master\nMalrubius's ghost? There's no doubt about that, I take it. I'd think that gets\npriority as something needing explanation, and that the explanation for it\nmight shed some light on Silk's mistaking his future astral self for Patera\nPike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, what of Malrubius? If we have a repeated pattern in which someone \nmeets a character for the first time and mistakes him for someone he \nknows quite well....not everyone, mind you, only in two very specific \ninstances...well, why should we not conclude that he looked unncannily \nlike each of those persons. And if A = B = C then A = C. In other words, \nwhy is not simplest explanation to conclude that if Severian had met \nPatera Pike, that he might also have mistaken him for Malrubius as well.\nIt's not like Wolfe has never peopled his stories with inexplicable \ntwins (genetic or temporal) running around with seemingly separate agendas.\n\nI have some suspicions. They are are beyond my ability to even argue \nthem. They just seem to fit on the overall horizon. I believe that Don \nDoggett was on track in his theory that Severian was in some way a \ndescendent/relative to Typhon and Ymar. He was wrong at certain points, \nI think, but his concept was valid. I think members of Typhon's family \n(such as it is) are to be found all over the Sun Cycle. What is missing \nis a valid tree and the role each plays." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, there's a possible discrepancy in the theory that Pike's ghost is\nSilk's future astral self. The only description of Oreb's astral appearance I\ncould find is as a fat bird up to Silkhorn's belt (RttW, Ch. 17). The young Silk\nwould hardly call that \"Oreb\" without further comment. I suppose one could\nsay that Oreb was big to contain the version of Scylla, and that after she was\nremoved from him, he would have looked like his normal self. However, Hoof\ngoes along on that expedition, when Cilinia is separate from Oreb, and doesn't\ncomment on any change in Silk, unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have an explanation for why Oreb did not look like a bird at the \ntime. It was because he was possessed. Actually, I believe (IIRC, ho ho \nho) that the text explains this. An astral Oreb, unpossessed would have \nan animal soul and would look like itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB32C04.6000501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T00:04:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB31B8E.2060009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (03-11-2011 22:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 4:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, there's a possible discrepancy in the theory that Pike's\nghost is\nSilk's future astral self. The only description of Oreb's astral appearance I\ncould find is as a fat bird up to Silkhorn's belt (RttW, Ch. 17). The\nyoung Silk\nwould hardly call that \"Oreb\" without further comment. I suppose one could\nsay that Oreb was big to contain the version of Scylla, and that after she\nwas\nremoved from him, he would have looked like his normal self. However, Hoof\ngoes along on that expedition, when Cilinia is separate from Oreb, and\ndoesn't\ncomment on any change in Silk, unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have an explanation for why Oreb did not look like a bird at the time. It\nwas because he was possessed. Actually, I believe (IIRC, ho ho ho) that the\ntext explains this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text does not explain that, but it in fact describes how the 'fat bird' \nsplit into a bird that looked just like the real Oreb, plus the 'girl'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An astral Oreb, unpossessed would have an animal soul\nand would look like itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does look like himself, but he's still close to a human being; however, \nnot closer nor farther than out of dream. Dream travellers look like their \nsoul, but if their real body is the natural medium for their soul, then they \ndon't look different. The difference shows up only when the real body and \nsoul are out of sync: the Rajan looks more like Horn, Babbie looks more \nhuman, the inhumi look human, possessed Oreb looks somewhat human; \nunpossessed Oreb looks like normal Oreb, no matter how humanlike he \n*naturally* is. This is an important point because it lends weight to the \nview that Babbie is part Horn: if he were only Babbie, he'd look like \nBabbie, no matter how naturally humanlike, just as Oreb looks like Oreb. \nNotice, however, how Babbie looks humanlike at the same time the Rajan looks \nHornlike; Horn wasn't displaced by Silk, he* just faded a bit all while \nsending a copy into Babbie.\n\n(*) or the copy of him the Neighbours sent into Silk; but I don't think \nthat's it, I think the original Horn really went into Silk, rather than a copy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3331B.80103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T00:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB31B8E.2060009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 6:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI have some suspicions. They are are beyond my ability to even argue \nthem. They just seem to fit on the overall horizon. I believe that Don \nDoggett was on track in his theory that Severian was in some way a \ndescendent/relative to Typhon and Ymar. He was wrong at certain \npoints, I think, but his concept was valid. I think members of \nTyphon's family (such as it is) are to be found all over the Sun \nCycle. What is missing is a valid tree and the role each plays. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect this as well, based on others' theories that have opened my eyes.\n\nI think however that the tree will always remain as obscure as the \nfamily tree of any god/gods. Gods seem to have multiple \nfathers/mothers/offspring and these change depending on the story or the \nteller. And after all, once you discover everything there is to know \nabout a god, he/she's not really a god anymore. Just another \nspecies/monster/genetic freak!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320377250.53278.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T03:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB32C04.6000501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 11/3/2011 4:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Incidentally, there's a possible discrepancy in the theory that \nPike's ghost is\n Silk's future astral self. The only description of Oreb's \nastral appearance I\n could find is as a fat bird up to Silkhorn's belt (RttW, Ch. 17). \nThe young Silk\n would hardly call that \"Oreb\" without further comment. I \nsuppose one could\n say that Oreb was big to contain the version of Scylla, and that after \nshe was\n removed from him, he would have looked like his normal self. However, \nHoof\n goes along on that expedition, when Cilinia is separate from Oreb, and\n doesn't\n comment on any change in Silk, unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " We have an explanation for why Oreb did not look like a bird at the time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It\n was because he was possessed. Actually, I believe (IIRC, ho ho ho) that the\n text explains this.\n\nThe text does not explain that, but it in fact describes how the 'fat \nbird' split into a bird that looked just like the real Oreb, plus the \n'girl'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, there it is, TrrW, Ch. 17. So much for my discrepancy.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T12:24:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320377250.53278.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Wolfe is. The clue (if it is) remains readable: Blood = Silk's \nson. In what sense? In a purely genetic sense (if Silk = Pike), as well as the \nother sense Silk ponders.Naturally this alone is not enough to build a case on, \njust a pointer if one is already looking, i.e., if one is looking for confirmation \nof an already-observed pattern." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the already-observed pattern the Zeus-Dionysus, Pas-Outsider, father-son-father\nambiguity (which may also appear in BotNS)? If not, apologies for intruding my \ntheory into the discussion. But earlier on, I was wondering if it would appear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think however that the tree will always remain as obscure as the \nfamily tree of any god/gods. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIncluding Severian's?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gods seem to have multiple fathers/mothers/offspring and these change depending on the \nstory or the teller. And after all, once you discover everything there is to know about \na god, he/she's not really a god anymore. Just another species/monster/genetic freak!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI REALLY think this gets to the heart of a point Wolfe is trying to make. We learn about\ninvertebrate biology in high school and college so when a sexual/asexual budding creature \nlike Tzadkiel compares him/herself to a sponge, we sorta get the science of it.\n \nWhen ancient Greeks or someone like Severian or Horn is presented with such a being their\ninterpretation and description will reflect their own education and life's experience. So\nwe get stories of angels, gods, monster, etc. The story-tellers are not less intelligent\nthan we, just operating from a different frame of reference.\n \nWe, ourselves, are not sufficiently advanced to succintly grasp the reproductive structure\nand family tree of electronic beings who can also possess human bodies/brains. We are left\nstruggling to find the proper way to express our limited understanding of such things but \nwe do our best, much as the Greek mythologists did in their stories. I think this was \nWolfe's intention. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F64B.20404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 8:24 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Wolfe is. The clue (if it is) remains readable: Blood = Silk's\nson. In what sense? In a purely genetic sense (if Silk = Pike), as well as the\nother sense Silk ponders.Naturally this alone is not enough to build a case on,\njust a pointer if one is already looking, i.e., if one is looking for confirmation\nof an already-observed pattern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the already-observed pattern the Zeus-Dionysus, Pas-Outsider, father-son-father\nambiguity (which may also appear in BotNS)? If not, apologies for intruding my\ntheory into the discussion. But earlier on, I was wondering if it would appear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the Silk-Pike clone brother theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think however that the tree will always remain as obscure as the\nfamily tree of any god/gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Including Severian's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gods seem to have multiple fathers/mothers/offspring and these change depending on the\nstory or the teller. And after all, once you discover everything there is to know about\na god, he/she's not really a god anymore. Just another species/monster/genetic freak!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I REALLY think this gets to the heart of a point Wolfe is trying to make. We learn about\ninvertebrate biology in high school and college so when a sexual/asexual budding creature\nlike Tzadkiel compares him/herself to a sponge, we sorta get the science of it.\n\nWhen ancient Greeks or someone like Severian or Horn is presented with such a being their\ninterpretation and description will reflect their own education and life's experience. So\nwe get stories of angels, gods, monster, etc. The story-tellers are not less intelligent\nthan we, just operating from a different frame of reference.\n\nWe, ourselves, are not sufficiently advanced to succintly grasp the reproductive structure\nand family tree of electronic beings who can also possess human bodies/brains. We are left\nstruggling to find the proper way to express our limited understanding of such things but\nwe do our best, much as the Greek mythologists did in their stories. I think this was\nWolfe's intention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, exactly. And so we interpret our science-based world much as the \nGreeks did---as human beings will and must." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320449391.90289.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T23:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB31B8E.2060009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/3/2011 4:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read that passage quite differently from you. What's your evidence for a\n\"struggle\"?\n\nI'd think it more accurate to say that he thing that Silk tries to explain to\nhimself is why he said \"sir\", not why he said \"my son\". In fact, he seems to\nhave been trained or to have worked out ways to address older or higher-status\nmen more respectfully than \"my son\".\nThe reason he comes up with for his\nswitch makes sense. If we think he's hiding another reason from himself, one\npossibility is that he switched from \"sir\" to \"my son\" after he went from begging\nto doing an augur's job of explaining something about the Outsider to a layperson.\nHe might hide this from himself because it might feel like sinful pride to him. I\ndon't see any hint that he unconsciously sees Blood as something like his son\nin a physical sense or that Wolfe is inventing this to give us such a clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wish I had put it as succinctly as David. The exposition is peculiar. As is often the case, I think Wolfe has a remarkable ability to provide exposition on multiple channels at one. There are many times Wolfe has his characters chattering on about something that seems barely relevant and in an overly verbose way and suddenly I have an epiphany that as the character speaks, Wolfe is there, in the same spot. He is speaking the same words but he is looking at me, the reader, from the corner of his eye." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The difficulty, of course, is knowing when he's doing it and when he's not. I see that several people have felt he's doing something unusual in this passage, which certainly strengthens your argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And what about Severian's mistaking Silk's astral appearance for Master\nMalrubius's ghost? There's no doubt about that, I take it. I'd think that gets\npriority as something needing explanation, and that the explanation for it\nmight shed some light on Silk's mistaking his future astral self for Patera\nPike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, what of Malrubius? If we have a repeated pattern in which someone meets a character for the first time and mistakes him for someone he knows quite well....not everyone, mind you, only in two very specific instances...well, why should we not conclude that he looked unncannily like each of those persons. And if A = B = C then A = C. In other words, why is not simplest explanation to conclude that if Severian had met Patera Pike, that he might also have mistaken him for Malrubius as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two reasons. One is the lack of people saying the physical Silk resembled Pike. Rose knew Pike quite well in his younger days. Marble knew him, though the files might have gotten corrupted, and no doubt older people in the quarter knew his appearance. Yet unless I'm missing something again, we never hear of anyone saying that the new augur is the spit and image of the old one. When we see Rose's point of view, she doesn't think it, though you'd expect it to be quite disturbing to her. Likewise Mint knew Pike when he was old (she was at the manteion before Silk), and she sees Silk in RttW and discusses his appearance (which is like Silk, not Horn), but doesn't mention any resemblance to Pike.\n\nThe other is that giving the Commonwealth the same practice of thawing embryos as the /Whorl/, without any mention, doesn't strike me as a simple addition to BotNS.\n\nSo maybe the simplest explanation is that only the astral Silk resembles other people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not like Wolfe has never peopled his stories with inexplicable twins (genetic or temporal) running around with seemingly separate agendas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not arguing that he'd never do such a thing, just that I don't see the reason to believe it in this case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have some suspicions. They are are beyond my ability to even argue them. They just seem to fit on the overall horizon. I believe that Don Doggett was on track in his theory that Severian was in some way a descendent/relative to Typhon and Ymar. He was wrong at certain points, I think, but his concept was valid. I think members of Typhon's family (such as it is) are to be found all over the Sun Cycle. What is missing is a valid tree and the role each plays." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm at the same point, or not as far along.\n\n[snip the part that's been taken care of]\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB55DC4.1080208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320449391.90289.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, what of Malrubius? If we have a repeated pattern in which someone\nmeets a character for the first time and mistakes him for someone he knows\nquite well....not everyone, mind you, only in two very specific\ninstances...well, why should we not conclude that he looked unncannily\nlike each of those persons. And if A = B = C then A = C. In other words,\nwhy is not simplest explanation to conclude that if Severian had met\nPatera Pike, that he might also have mistaken him for Malrubius as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 6:29 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: \nTwo reasons. One is the lack of people saying the physical Silk resembled Pike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. They don't say it. I expected them to, or at least a proffered \ntheory as to why Silk and Severian mistook the Rajan for someone else. I \ncan't remember right now, does Severian or anyone else recognize \nSeverian's face in Apu-Punchau in the first four volumes? I know \nSeverian proferred an incorrect theory regarding his identity and gave \nus no more information about his identity. (I could search the text for \nthe answer but not finding anything would not be a confirmation and \nmaybe someone knows.)\n\nBut Remora's conversation with Silk about the embryo that Tussah bought \nhas always made me sense that he knew Silk was such an embryo and might \nbe THE embryo. That might well be because he saw he similarity between \nSilk and Pike. But then Remora was an older man as well. I the reason \nSilk was assigned to the poorest quarter was to hide him from the \nattention of the city's elites. I suppose there are other ways the could \nhave found out (Tussah told them for instance). But that he had a face \nthey had seen before is another possible way.\n\nAs for others, well, it is not true that Silk and Pike were the split \nimage of each other. Pike was a good deal older. Additionally, Wolfe \nseems to lean more to Nurture rather than Nature in the development of \npersonalities. In \"Home Fires\" Chenille sees her mother in the body of a \nsimilar but by no means identical woman. She recognizes her immediately \nbecause she sees her mother's expressions and gestures in the body.\n\nPike has lived a different life. He grew up in a different world. He had \ndifferent parents. I think Wolfe would find that significant in addition \nto the age difference between them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rose knew Pike quite well in his younger days." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is an interesting conversation (for me) that Rose-in-Marble has \nwith Silk about why she hated him. She says it was because she could see \nin his face that he found her unattractive. Imagine how it would be to \nsee such a thing in the face of the one you loved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marble knew him, though the files might have gotten corrupted, and no doubt older people in the quarter knew his appearance. Yet unless I'm missing something again, we never hear of anyone saying that the new augur is the spit and image of the old one. When we see Rose's point of view, she doesn't think it, though you'd expect it to be quite disturbing to her. Likewise Mint knew Pike when he was old (she was at the manteion before Silk), and she sees Silk in RttW and discusses his appearance (which is like Silk, not Horn), but doesn't mention any resemblance to Pike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marble might have noticed that they were similar. But who cares? They \nweren't the same person.\nOn the other hand, Mint used to run from Silk's face." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other is that giving the Commonwealth the same practice of thawing embryos as the /Whorl/, without any mention, doesn't strike me as a simple addition to BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Commonwealth *does* commonly thaw embryos. Remora mentions all \nthe animals. Blood thaws a human one one. Tussah too. It is common \nenough that the elite of Viron rightfully guess that Tussah procured one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So maybe the simplest explanation is that only the astral Silk resembles other people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wouldn't we expect Hoof and Hide to think the astral Rajan looks like \ntheir father then?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T22:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PIke/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB55DC4.1080208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nThe difficulty, of course, is knowing when he's doing it and when he's not. I see that several people have felt he's doing something unusual in this passage, which certainly strengthens your argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's something unusual, but it may just be because Silk is unusual.\nHe has a tendency to go off into long ruminations like this, and while\nthis certainly gives a good opportunity for hiding clues, it doesn't\nmean there has to be a clue every time - it wouldn't be proper hiding\nif there were. The question makes sense, and so does the answer. What\ndoesn't make so much sense is Silk worrying about it - but this is\nSilk. So the passage helps to establish something both about social\nrelations and about Silk's character (which we're very new to at this\npoint). This, of course, doesn't stop it being also a clue, but it's\nnot clear that it must be." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T22:41:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nJerry Friedman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other is that giving the Commonwealth the same practice of thawing embryos as the /Whorl/, without any mention, doesn't strike me as a simple addition to BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the Commonwealth *does* commonly thaw embryos. Remora mentions all\nthe animals. Blood thaws a human one one. Tussah too. It is common\nenough that the elite of Viron rightfully guess that Tussah procured one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the Whorl. Jerry's worry was about the Commonwealth (on Urth).\nI agree it's a worry. We know - as you say, we are told repeatedly -\nthat there is a store of embryos on the Whorl, though we don't know\nthat they are clones. On Urth, by contrast, we know that there are\nclones, but the ones we're told about are all contemporary clones;\nthere's no suggestion of a store of embryos." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T22:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haing now reread the pasage, I am still worried about Oreb. it's his\npresence, presumably, that is the signal that 'Pike' is actualy a\ntime-travelling Rajan - if it were not for that he might be many\nthings, an actual ghost, a vision produced by the Outsider, even a\ntime-travelling PIke. But Oreb is not actually with Pike; he flies out\nof the window some time before Pike appears. And I remain unconvinced\nthat it is Oreb, Silk sees him at the moment of waking, in the dark,\nthrough a curtain. In those circumstances he might mistake almost\nanything that flies for Oreb. I don't think we've ruled out the\npossibility that it's Quetzal.\n\nI also wonder what Mucor is doing there. We have _three_ ghostly\nvisitors to Silk's house; one feels there should be a connection\nbetween them. Silk later speculates that Mucor summoned Pike, though\nhe's very likely wrong. In any case, I don't see how Mucor can be\nfitted into the time-travel story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320544151.22062.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T01:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Andrew Mason wrote:\nFrom: Andrew Mason \nSubject: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:58 PM\nHaing now reread the pasage, I am\nstill worried about Oreb. it's his\npresence, presumably, that is the signal that 'Pike' is\nactualy a\ntime-travelling Rajan - if it were not for that he might be\nmany\nthings, an actual ghost, a vision produced by the Outsider,\neven a\ntime-travelling PIke. But Oreb is not actually with Pike;\nhe flies out\nof the window some time before Pike appears. And I remain\nunconvinced\nthat it is Oreb, Silk sees him at the moment of waking, in\nthe dark,\nthrough a curtain. In those circumstances he might mistake\nalmost\nanything that flies for Oreb. I don't think we've ruled out\nthe\npossibility that it's Quetzal.\n\nI also wonder what Mucor is doing there. We have _three_\nghostly\nvisitors to Silk's house; one feels there should be a\nconnection\nbetween them. Silk later speculates that Mucor summoned\nPike, though\nhe's very likely wrong. In any case, I don't see how Mucor\ncan be\nfitted into the time-travel story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mucor, Fava, and Mora or whatever her name is go back in time at one point to retrieve Hy's spirit, if the doll in the dreams in Short Sun is indeed Mucor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T20:40:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1320544151.22062.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n. In any case, I don't see how Mucor" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "can be\nfitted into the time-travel story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mucor, Fava, and Mora or whatever her name is go back in time at one point to retrieve Hy's spirit, if the doll in the dreams in Short Sun is indeed Mucor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be an older Mucor, of course, but as she klooks like a\nskull, I guess it's possible Silk can't tell the difference. I can't\nremember if Mucor ever shows any awareness of having come to Silk's\nbedroom." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320646283.84757.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T06:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EB55DC4.1080208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, what of Malrubius? If we have a repeated pattern in which someone\nmeets a character for the first time and mistakes him for someone he knows\nquite well....not everyone, mind you, only in two very specific\ninstances...well, why should we not conclude that he looked unncannily\nlike each of those persons. And if A = B = C then A = C. In other words,\nwhy is not simplest explanation to conclude that if Severian had met\nPatera Pike, that he might also have mistaken him for Malrubius as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 6:29 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two reasons. One is the lack of people saying the physical Silk resembled Pike.\n\nNo. They don't say it. I expected them to, or at least a proffered theory as to why Silk and Severian mistook the Rajan for someone else. I can't remember right now, does Severian or anyone else recognize Severian's face in Apu-Punchau in the first four volumes? I know Severian proferred an incorrect theory regarding his identity and gave us no more information about his identity. (I could search the text for the answer but not finding anything would not be a confirmation and maybe someone knows.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember anything like that, but then I might not even if it were there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Remora's conversation with Silk about the embryo that Tussah bought has always made me sense that he knew Silk was such an embryo and might be THE embryo. That might well be because he saw he similarity between Silk and Pike. But then Remora was an older man as well. I the reason Silk was assigned to the poorest quarter was to hide him from the attention of the city's elites. I suppose there are other ways the could have found out (Tussah told them for instance). But that he had a face they had seen before is another possible way.\n\nAs for others, well, it is not true that Silk and Pike were the split image of each other. Pike was a good deal older." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I gave examples below of people who should have seen them at the same age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, Wolfe seems to lean more to Nurture rather than Nature in the development of personalities. In \"Home Fires\" Chenille sees her mother in the body of a similar but by no means identical woman. She recognizes her immediately because she sees her mother's expressions and gestures in the body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I haven't read /Home Fires/, but I think an extra \"en\" got into a character's name.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pike has lived a different life. He grew up in a different world. He had different parents. I think Wolfe would find that significant in addition to the age difference between them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But according to your idea, Silk's older self does look identical to Pike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rose knew Pike quite well in his younger days." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is an interesting conversation (for me) that Rose-in-Marble has with Silk about why she hated him. She says it was because she could see in his face that he found her unattractive. Imagine how it would be to see such a thing in the face of the one you loved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A common experience, unfortunately. But we're in Rose's point of view near the beginning, and she thinks about the filthy things Silk could do to Marble (!), without thinking that he looks very much like her lover in his youth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marble knew him, though the files might have gotten corrupted, and no doubt older people in the quarter knew his appearance. Yet unless I'm missing something again, we never hear of anyone saying that the new augur is the spit and image of the old one. When we see Rose's point of view, she doesn't think it, though you'd expect it to be quite disturbing to her. Likewise Mint knew Pike when he was old (she was at the manteion before Silk), and she sees Silk in RttW and discusses his appearance (which is like Silk, not Horn), but doesn't mention any resemblance to Pike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marble might have noticed that they were similar. But who cares? They weren't the same person.\nOn the other hand, Mint used to run from Silk's face." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When she gets brave, and even when she talks about his appearance, she doesn't mention anything.\n\nAnd imagine if a young augur joins a manteion and looks strikingly like the old augur when he was young. Isn't that going to be the first thing all the older people are going to say? \"My, sonny, I mean Patera, don't you look just like Patera Pike when he was a sprat!? Are you related, by any chance?\"\n\nI don't resemble my father more than I resemble my mother, but the summer I worked for him, customers would often ask whether I was his son. (It reached the point where I wondered whether word was getting around.)? I was twenty and he was in his fifties. \"Ah, no; the years, the years...\"\n\n\n[snip a part that Andrew Mason answered]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So maybe the simplest explanation is that only the astral Silk resembles other people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wouldn't we expect Hoof and Hide to think the astral Rajan looks like their father then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you're getting at specifically there, since they do. One might ask, though, whether we'd expect random passersby on Green or in Nessus to think the astral Rajan is a ghost. I don't have a good answer to that, but there's much less opportunity for them than there is for people who knew Silk and Pike.\n\nMaybe this is a good time for a quotation from the interview that Larry Miller reminded us of.\n\n\"There's a wonderful bit in the Roger Rabbit movie nobody\nseems to get. Roger goes around with handcuffs on his wrists for half an hour. Then he pulls one hand out of\nthe cuffs and does something with it, and sticks it back in. Bob says, 'You mean to tell me you could get out\nof those whenever you wanted to?' And Roger says, 'No, only when it's funny.' That is a profound expression of\nthe law that governs all writers and performers. The audience doesn't have to think about that, but writers are\nbound by it.\"\n\nSo maybe the answer is that Silk looks like Pike or Malrubius, or he's Pike's clone brother but the resemblance comes up, only when it's funny. But that's a heck of a thing to do in a book that also has puzzles we're supposed to solve.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBB027F.2050403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T22:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 5:58 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nHaving now reread the pasage, I am still worried about Oreb. [...] But Oreb is not actually with Pike; he flies out of the window some time before Pike appears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is true that we do not see \"Pike\" at the time, but Oreb's presence \nmeans that the Rajan is already nearby when Silk awakes. Probably in \nPike's bedroom. If astral Oreb is there, astral Rajan is there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I remain unconvinced\nthat it is Oreb, Silk sees him at the moment of waking, in the dark,\nthrough a curtain. In those circumstances he might mistake almost\nanything that flies for Oreb. I don't think we've ruled out the\npossibility that it's Quetzal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a modification of the \"Silk didn't really get a good look at \nPike\" explanation. I think this causes the number of misidentifications \nto become cumbersome. I find it quite unlikely that Quetzal (flying \nserpent) could be mistaken for any bird, let alone a very specific bird. \nHere's the text:\n\n++++++++++++++\n\"He woke gaping for breath. The lights had extinguished themselves. In \nthe faint skylight from a curtained window, he saw Oreb hop out and flap \naway. Mucor stood beside his bed, naked in the darkness and skeletally \nthin; he blinked; she faded to mist and was gone.\" Lake of the Long Sun, \nchapter 1.\n+++++++++++++++\n\nWhen he awakes he is immediately convinced that what he sees is Oreb. \nIt's not \"What is that hopping flying thing? Is that Oreb?\" Only \nafterward does he decide it is illogical that what he saw Oreb since \nOreb can't fly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also wonder what Mucor is doing there. We have _three_ ghostly\nvisitors to Silk's house; one feels there should be a connection\nbetween them. Silk later speculates that Mucor summoned Pike, though\nhe's very likely wrong. In any case, I don't see how Mucor can be\nfitted into the time-travel story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At other times, we see Mucor appearing in mirrors and possessing people. \nI *think* this is the only time we see her appearing in astral form, \ndisappearing in a mist. I propose that the Mucor Silk sees here is \n***Mucor from Blue,*** on her mission to find Silk. The Silk she finds \nis the Rajan in astral time travel. It is he who tells her:\n\n++++++++++++++++\n\"'He asked me not to tell you where he is. It will be very dangerous for \nyou to try to go where he is. If you find him, it will be dangerous for \nhim, and for Hyacinth as well.' This was said without any expression, as \nMucor always spoke; but it seemed to me that there was a spark of \nconcern in her eyes, which were usually so empty. \"OBW, chapter 4\n+++++++++++++++++\n\nThe concern is her knowledge (having conversed with the Rajan) that \nsomething very strange is going to happen to Horn and Silk, although she \nmight not be exactly clear on what.\n\nHow this is dangerous for Horn is that if he continues his journey, is \nthat he will die on the floating island and his body will be destroyed \non Green. How it is dangerous for Silk relates to all the events that \nhappened to Silk after he killed himself in front of Hyacinth's casket \nand even before which are certainly helped along by the Rajan.\n\nDangerous for Hy? It could be that the answer is tied up in her \nconfabulation with Mucor and Seawrack. Personally, I believe it is \nbecause he knows that as events unfold, the inhuma Fava will die, become \ntrapped in dreams, rescued and set free in the Whorl only to become a \nprostitute for Blood, and all the other dangerous events that will \ntranspire up to her death--starting with Neighbor-Horn becoming Silk and \nreturning to Blue. This is a story with no clear beginning, middle, or end.\n\nOtherwise, it is never made clear how Silk though Horn coming to where \nhe was was dangerous for any of them. Silk was not under any threat from \nthe Vironese or Trivigaunte government.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T00:07:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EBB027F.2050403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thats a great theory. Can you explain the whole Fava thing to me\nthough? I had no clue she was one of Bloods prostitutes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/5/2011 5:58 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nHaving now reread the pasage, I am still worried about Oreb. [...] But\nOreb is not actually with Pike; he flies out of the window some time\nbefore Pike appears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is true that we do not see \"Pike\" at the time, but Oreb's presence\nmeans that the Rajan is already nearby when Silk awakes. Probably in\nPike's bedroom. If astral Oreb is there, astral Rajan is there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I remain unconvinced\nthat it is Oreb, Silk sees him at the moment of waking, in the dark,\nthrough a curtain. In those circumstances he might mistake almost\nanything that flies for Oreb. I don't think we've ruled out the\npossibility that it's Quetzal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a modification of the \"Silk didn't really get a good look at\nPike\" explanation. I think this causes the number of misidentifications\nto become cumbersome. I find it quite unlikely that Quetzal (flying\nserpent) could be mistaken for any bird, let alone a very specific bird.\nHere's the text:\n\n++++++++++++++\n\"He woke gaping for breath. The lights had extinguished themselves. In\nthe faint skylight from a curtained window, he saw Oreb hop out and flap\naway. Mucor stood beside his bed, naked in the darkness and skeletally\nthin; he blinked; she faded to mist and was gone.\" Lake of the Long Sun,\nchapter 1.\n+++++++++++++++\n\nWhen he awakes he is immediately convinced that what he sees is Oreb.\nIt's not \"What is that hopping flying thing? Is that Oreb?\" Only\nafterward does he decide it is illogical that what he saw Oreb since\nOreb can't fly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I also wonder what Mucor is doing there. We have _three_ ghostly\nvisitors to Silk's house; one feels there should be a connection\nbetween them. Silk later speculates that Mucor summoned Pike, though\nhe's very likely wrong. In any case, I don't see how Mucor can be\nfitted into the time-travel story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At other times, we see Mucor appearing in mirrors and possessing people.\nI *think* this is the only time we see her appearing in astral form,\ndisappearing in a mist. I propose that the Mucor Silk sees here is\n***Mucor from Blue,*** on her mission to find Silk. The Silk she finds\nis the Rajan in astral time travel. It is he who tells her:\n\n++++++++++++++++\n\"'He asked me not to tell you where he is. It will be very dangerous for\nyou to try to go where he is. If you find him, it will be dangerous for\nhim, and for Hyacinth as well.' This was said without any expression, as\nMucor always spoke; but it seemed to me that there was a spark of\nconcern in her eyes, which were usually so empty. \"OBW, chapter 4\n+++++++++++++++++\n\nThe concern is her knowledge (having conversed with the Rajan) that\nsomething very strange is going to happen to Horn and Silk, although she\nmight not be exactly clear on what.\n\nHow this is dangerous for Horn is that if he continues his journey, is\nthat he will die on the floating island and his body will be destroyed\non Green. How it is dangerous for Silk relates to all the events that\nhappened to Silk after he killed himself in front of Hyacinth's casket\nand even before which are certainly helped along by the Rajan.\n\nDangerous for Hy? It could be that the answer is tied up in her\nconfabulation with Mucor and Seawrack. Personally, I believe it is\nbecause he knows that as events unfold, the inhuma Fava will die, become\ntrapped in dreams, rescued and set free in the Whorl only to become a\nprostitute for Blood, and all the other dangerous events that will\ntranspire up to her death--starting with Neighbor-Horn becoming Silk and\nreturning to Blue. This is a story with no clear beginning, middle, or end.\n\nOtherwise, it is never made clear how Silk though Horn coming to where\nhe was was dangerous for any of them. Silk was not under any threat from\nthe Vironese or Trivigaunte government.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBB2161.7010008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T00:57:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller wrote:\nThats a great theory. Can you explain the whole Fava thing to me\nthough? I had no clue she was one of Bloods prostitutes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am arguing at this point that Fava in dream-travel IS Hyancinth. There \nis not way to detect this if you haven't read SS. Only that there is \nsomething \"off\" about. I explained the theory on 11/3 12:09 cst." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBB24CD.4020105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T01:11:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EBB2161.7010008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 6:57 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOnly that there is something \"off\" about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...Hyacinth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T01:12:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EBB2161.7010008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah and you explained it to me no less. Totally think I missed that.\n Oh well read it now and its seems pretty like a good theory to me. I\nwish I was as familiar with Long/short as I am with New so I could\nfind something wrong with your theory. Ha Ha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller wrote:\nThats a great theory. Can you explain the whole Fava thing to me\nthough? I had no clue she was one of Bloods prostitutes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am arguing at this point that Fava in dream-travel IS Hyancinth. There\nis not way to detect this if you haven't read SS. Only that there is\nsomething \"off\" about. I explained the theory on 11/3 12:09 cst.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320893530.64221.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T02:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike/Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<4EBB2161.7010008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/9/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike/Oreb\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 4:57 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller wrote:\nThats a great theory. Can you explain the whole\nFava thing to me\nthough? I had no clue she was one of Bloods\nprostitutes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am arguing at this point that Fava in dream-travel IS\nHyancinth. There is not way to detect this if you haven't\nread SS. Only that there is something \"off\" about. I\nexplained the theory on 11/3 12:09 cst." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fava definitely is Hyacinth somehow, I just think she retrieves her spirit, not certain that she actually goes back and becomes a new body Hyacinth, or if she does, or that there isn't an \"original\" corporeal Hy she's merging with. In other words, I don't think Hy and Fava spring into existence together and then live Hy's life, only that they merge somehow later, so that there is an original Hy.\n\nMan, this stuff can give you a headache." } ] } ] }