{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6095", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6095, "subject": "Hyacinth", "messages": 30, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-11-02T14:15:01+00:00", "last": "2011-11-05T04:37:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T14:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was just checking into the Hyacinth myth and I was reminded that this\ncharacter was a teenage boy, the sexual consort of Apollo. I was trying \nto think if there is any evidence (for or against) that this might impact \nthe Long Sun story.\n \nSomewhere in his writing, Mantis remarks that Hyacinth's breasts, as\ndescribed, seem likely to be implants. Silk does seem almost unnaturally\nafraid of his own passion when he first meets Hyacinth. And she is a \nshockingly good fighter, we find out toward the end. Is there any evidence\nthat Hyacinth can't be male, like her being pregnant?\n \nIt wouldn't be a complete shock to find Blood's clients might have a thing\nfor ladyboys, especially Oosik. In history, pagan soldiers have a reputation \nfor that sort of thing.\n \nJames Wynn has suggested Patera Incus (I think it was him, yes?) might be \npart of a gender bender thing going on. I wonder if James might find the\ninclusion of Zephyrus (West Wind) as part of the Hyacinth-Apollo story to\nbe of interest.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1BB60.4060200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T21:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 9:15 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI was just checking into the Hyacinth myth [...]\nJames Wynn has suggested Patera Incus (I think it was him, yes?) might be\npart of a gender bender thing going on. I wonder if James might find the\ninclusion of Zephyrus (West Wind) as part of the Hyacinth-Apollo story to\nbe of interest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So inquiries like this one make me realize that although my comments on \nthis list don't go back as far as Borkski's or Mantis' or Roy's, it has \nbeen a long while now. So long, in fact, that very infamous theories \nthat I helped initiate are not even lore anymore.\n\nImmediately after I finished \"The Book of the Long Sun\" so many years \nago, I posited that Hyacinth might be a male chem who had himself \nretrofitted to pass as a woman. I did not know at the time that Marc \nAramini had posited only a few months earlier that Hyacinth might be male.\n\nI don't believe my \"male chem\" theory anymore (I only half believed it \neven then), nor even Marc's \"male Hyacinth\" theory. I've moved on. But I \ncan still see the appeal of theories along that line. There's something \n\"off\" about Hy. She has a secret that Chenille knows to some extent. At \nthe time I offered the \"male chem\" theory, I noted that Hyacinth \nfollowed the same transformative pattern as Dracaina of \"The Soldier of \nthe Mist\". I asked at that time \"what was Hyacinth before\"? I have \nanother working theory that I'm currently collating. I don't think Hy is \nor has ever been male, but I am still convinced she ain't no ordinary girl.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T00:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1BB60.4060200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of mysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your theory on Hyacinths nature as well\nas anything in the text that suggests she is not a female. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in hearing more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\nOn 11/2/2011 9:15 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was just checking into the Hyacinth myth [...]\nJames Wynn has suggested Patera Incus (I think it was him, yes?) might be\npart of a gender bender thing going on. I wonder if James might find the\ninclusion of Zephyrus (West Wind) as part of the Hyacinth-Apollo story to\nbe of interest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So inquiries like this one make me realize that although my comments on\nthis list don't go back as far as Borkski's or Mantis' or Roy's, it has\nbeen a long while now. So long, in fact, that very infamous theories\nthat I helped initiate are not even lore anymore.\n\nImmediately after I finished \"The Book of the Long Sun\" so many years\nago, I posited that Hyacinth might be a male chem who had himself\nretrofitted to pass as a woman. I did not know at the time that Marc\nAramini had posited only a few months earlier that Hyacinth might be male.\n\nI don't believe my \"male chem\" theory anymore (I only half believed it\neven then), nor even Marc's \"male Hyacinth\" theory. I've moved on. But I\ncan still see the appeal of theories along that line. There's something\n\"off\" about Hy. She has a secret that Chenille knows to some extent. At\nthe time I offered the \"male chem\" theory, I noted that Hyacinth\nfollowed the same transformative pattern as Dracaina of \"The Soldier of\nthe Mist\". I asked at that time \"what was Hyacinth before\"? I have\nanother working theory that I'm currently collating. I don't think Hy is\nor has ever been male, but I am still convinced she ain't no ordinary girl.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T12:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: As someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of mysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your (James Wynn's) theory on Hyacinths nature as \nwell as anything in the text that suggests she is not a female. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in hearing more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Bring out your theory James, even in partial form. You can complete and\npolish it for publication later. This is just for fun and elucidation. will it really \nignore the mythological boy Hyacinth? That would be surprising for a James theory. \n \nYes, it will probably draw out some venomous criticism from those who enjoy dispensing \nit. And we know that some who find merit in a theory will withhold their praise. Just\nremember all that has its emotional roots in simple jealosy of one of the best Wolfe\ntheorists still working. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2A198.7010103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T14:13:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/3/2011 8:44 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nlarry miller: As someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of mysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your (James Wynn's) theory on Hyacinths nature as\nwell as anything in the text that suggests she is not a female. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in hearing more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Bring out your theory James, even in partial form. You can complete and\npolish it for publication later. This is just for fun and elucidation. will it really\nignore the mythological boy Hyacinth? That would be surprising for a James theory.\n\nYes, it will probably draw out some venomous criticism from those who enjoy dispensing\nit. And we know that some who find merit in a theory will withhold their praise. Just\nremember all that has its emotional roots in simple jealosy of one of the best Wolfe\ntheorists still working." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, bring it on, James!\n\nDisregard the almost imperceptible sound of the sharpening of knives. :D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<33624A23-6D0C-4599-B4F8-F88A8982C3FF@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T14:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/03, ?s 12:44, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: As someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of \nmysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your (James Wynn's) theory on \nHyacinths nature as\nwell as anything in the text that suggests she is not a female. \nThis is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in hearing more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Bring out your theory James,\neven in partial form. You can complete and\npolish it for publication later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last time James was asked to present an incomplete theory, the list \nwent up in flames." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320333091.39371.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "quite simply it is the name, the fake breasts, here surprising ability to fight, and the statue of Catamitus that is near her room when Silk breaks in. On the other hand, Blood has Musk, and its his villa, so maybe the Hyacinthus/hyacinth connection, while valid in light of the hyacinth flower blooming at the end of Short Sun, is not necessarily applicable in terms of gender, but the statue of Catamitus is a bit thematically suggestive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Hyacinth\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 5:44 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: As someone who is rereading Long Sun in\nsearch of mysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your (James Wynn's) theory\non Hyacinths nature as \nwell as anything in the text that suggests she is not a\nfemale. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in\nhearing more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Bring out your theory James, even in partial form.\nYou can complete and\npolish it for publication later. This is just for fun and\nelucidation. will it really \nignore the mythological boy Hyacinth? That would be\nsurprising for a James theory. \n \nYes, it will probably draw out some venomous criticism from\nthose who enjoy dispensing \nit. And we know that some who find merit in a theory will\nwithhold their praise. Just\nremember all that has its emotional roots in simple jealosy\nof one of the best Wolfe\ntheorists still working. ???\n????????\n?????? ???\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320334008.69182.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:26:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1BB60.4060200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/2/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\nImmediately after I finished \"The Book of the Long Sun\" so\nmany years ago, I posited that Hyacinth might be a male chem\nwho had himself retrofitted to pass as a woman. I did not\nknow at the time that Marc Aramini had posited only a few\nmonths earlier that Hyacinth might be male." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh heh heh was that my fault? sometimes I forget who said what when. There is definitely something off about Hy, looking in her little ring and changing her appearance, but I agree, its not definitive by any means that she is male, its just an odd mythical association chain with her through the presence of all those boy toy mythological statues and Blood's homosexuality and the resonance with the mysterious gender bending elsewhere in the Soldier series." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320334225.58416.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:30:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320334008.69182.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So let's assume that Hy is in fact male/transsexual/altered. What does that mean for Silk and how we interpret him?\n\nI don't want this to be a dismissive question. I suppose I'm just looking for what it means if that's the case. Are we suggesting that it's Wolfe (as a cliche Catholic) undermining Silk's sanctity? Or is it the opposite, opening him to a kind of grace and love beyond traditional sexual relations? Or is it something else altogether?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/2/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\nImmediately after I finished \"The Book of the Long Sun\" so\nmany years ago, I posited that Hyacinth might be a male chem\nwho had himself retrofitted to pass as a woman. I did not\nknow at the time that Marc Aramini had posited only a few\nmonths earlier that Hyacinth might be male." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh heh heh was that my fault? sometimes I forget who said what when. There is definitely something off about Hy, looking in her little ring and changing her appearance, but I agree, its not definitive by any means that she is male, its just an odd mythical association chain with her through the presence of all those boy toy mythological statues and Blood's homosexuality and the resonance with the mysterious gender bending elsewhere in the Soldier series." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320334882.72811.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320334225.58416.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 8:30 AM\n\n\n\nSo let's assume that Hy is in fact male/transsexual/altered. What does that mean for Silk and how we interpret him?\n\n\nI don't want this to be a dismissive question. I suppose I'm just looking for what it means if that's the case. Are we suggesting that it's Wolfe (as a cliche Catholic) undermining Silk's sanctity? Or is it the opposite, opening him to a kind of grace and love beyond traditional sexual relations? Or is it something else altogether?\n\nI agree, I don't like it. Unless it means she is the super false kind of untrue love that can still somehow be transformed to sanctity (lying, cheating whore can we make her any lower ... oh yeah ex-man)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2B7F7.1010302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320334882.72811.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (03-11-2011 15:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On *Thu, 11/3/11, Craig Brewer //* wrote:\n From: Craig Brewer \n Subject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 8:30 AM\n\n So let's assume that Hy is in fact male/transsexual/altered. What does\n that mean for Silk and how we interpret him?\n\n I don't want this to be a dismissive question. I suppose I'm just\n looking for what it means if that's the case. Are we suggesting that\n it's Wolfe (as a cliche Catholic) undermining Silk's sanctity? Or is it\n the opposite, opening him to a kind of grace and love beyond traditional\n sexual relations? Or is it something else altogether?\n\nI agree, I don't like it. Unless it means she is the super false kind of\nuntrue love that can still somehow be transformed to sanctity (lying,\ncheating whore can we make her any lower ... oh yeah ex-man)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... does nobody really remember Silk's absolute shock after his wedding \nnight?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320335546.65822.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2B7F7.1010302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 8:49 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (03-11-2011\n15:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Thu, 11/3/11, Craig Brewer //*\nwrote:\n? ???From: Craig Brewer \n? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\n? ???To: \"The Urth Mailing List\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\n? ???Date: Thursday, November 3,\n2011, 8:30 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ???So let's assume that Hy is in\nfact male/transsexual/altered. What does\n? ???that mean for Silk and how we\ninterpret him?\n\n? ???I don't want this to be a\ndismissive question. I suppose I'm just\n? ???looking for what it means if\nthat's the case. Are we suggesting that\n? ???it's Wolfe (as a cliche\nCatholic) undermining Silk's sanctity? Or is it\n? ???the opposite, opening him to a\nkind of grace and love beyond traditional\n? ???sexual relations? Or is it\nsomething else altogether?\n\nI agree, I don't like it. Unless it means she is the\nsuper false kind of\nuntrue love that can still somehow be transformed to\nsanctity (lying,\ncheating whore can we make her any lower ... oh yeah\nex-man)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well... does nobody really remember Silk's absolute shock\nafter his wedding \nnight?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And going to kill himself on the airship. Just cheating with Saba, or worse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<798622-1320335717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1543636718-@b12.c5.bise6.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:55:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320335546.65822.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Y'all might be on to something here imho...Borski did a chapter on GW's negative portrayal of homosexual characters ( as I'm sure you all know....)\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:52:26 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 8:49 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (03-11-2011\n15:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Thu, 11/3/11, Craig Brewer //*\nwrote:\n? ???From: Craig Brewer \n? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\n? ???To: \"The Urth Mailing List\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\n? ???Date: Thursday, November 3,\n2011, 8:30 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ???So let's assume that Hy is in\nfact male/transsexual/altered. What does\n? ???that mean for Silk and how we\ninterpret him?\n\n? ???I don't want this to be a\ndismissive question. I suppose I'm just\n? ???looking for what it means if\nthat's the case. Are we suggesting that\n? ???it's Wolfe (as a cliche\nCatholic) undermining Silk's sanctity? Or is it\n? ???the opposite, opening him to a\nkind of grace and love beyond traditional\n? ???sexual relations? Or is it\nsomething else altogether?\n\nI agree, I don't like it. Unless it means she is the\nsuper false kind of\nuntrue love that can still somehow be transformed to\nsanctity (lying,\ncheating whore can we make her any lower ... oh yeah\nex-man)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well... does nobody really remember Silk's absolute shock\nafter his wedding \nnight?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And going to kill himself on the airship. Just cheating with Saba, or worse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2CACB.8010101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T17:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 7:31 PM, larry miller wrote:\nAs someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of mysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your theory on Hyacinths nature as well\nas anything in the text that suggests she is not a female. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in hearing more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Hyacinth is Fava (both beans...and beans were believed by the \nRomans to contain the souls of the dead). I think that after the end of \nSS, the Rajan reclaims Fava from the World of Dreams where she has been \nstuck. Then he goes back in time, says hello to Silk, then goes further \nback with Fava and releases her into the Whorl as Hyacinth. He then \ntakes a job at the Juzgado (Silk's mother's intention for him) and is \nidentified as her \"father\". Thus, Silk meets him but WE never do.\n\nBetween that time and when she meets Silk, she \"forgets\" her origin \n(perhaps the same way the Rajan forgot that he was Silk), remembering \nGreen only as a green umbrella and her former form as a dress, both of \nwhich she got from her mother (who bequeathed to her a human soul). She \nsuddenly remembers everything at the end of Exodus of the LS when she is \nfaced with the prospect of returning to Green.\n\nThis explains why Hy didn't know her mother was dead. The mother she met \nin Mainframe was the mother of her human soul--her inhumi portion has \nbeen left behind on Blue.\n\nProblems (some small some bigger)\n\n1) Chenille says that Hy's father rented her out to the family of \nColonel when she was a child. She says \"they had a lot of sprats\". Many \nhave opined from that that Hy had lots of siblings. Actually, no. It was \nthe Colonel who had a lot of children. Hy was being hired as a nanny.\n\n2) Hy seems to eat. Auk brings her a fruit which she demands from him.\nActually, though, we don't see her eat it. She claims to have eaten the \nfruit whole, pit and all (improbable).\nI'm convinced she ditched the fruit. But what was she doing while she \nwas alone when Auk was getting that food?\nAlso, Marble asserts that Hy doesn't actually eat at all. Remember that \nthe Rajan himself claimed to only pretend to eat until Spring came and \nhe was ravenous (Hello, trees! --because the Rajan is a Neighbor who has \npossessed the bodies of Horn and Silk consecutively).\n\n3) Dave Tallman has pointed out that it *appears* Fava is blonde in \ndream world. This is the part I'm still collating. But I don't think so.\n\n4) Hy has some pretty contemptuous things to say about her \"father\".\nThis is a real toughy -- -- if one takes it at face value and assumes \nthat this is Hy's constant and forever opinion of her father, then it is \ndifficult to overcome. I suspect she is in intermittent communication \nwith each other and this statement represents a recent falling out with \nhim.\n\nSo there it is, for what it is worth.\nThe following was something I wrote even before I came up with the \"male \nchem\" theory:\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/worm.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2CE5E.60600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T17:24:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320334225.58416.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 10:30 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nSo let's assume that Hy is in fact male/transsexual/altered. What does \nthat mean for Silk and how we interpret him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a lot of push-back at the time that Wolfe would not have a \n\"moral exemplar\" (that was the term) be married to a transsexual.\n\nOf course, I didn't see a problem with it since I was suggesting Hy was \na male CHEM. It would be no more sexually \"deviant\" for Silk to marry a \nretro-fitted male chem than a female chem. Neither are male or female in \nthe biological sense (although, I think they are in the spiritual sense).\n\nAs pointed out, Silk becomes suicidal after his second enlightening on \nhis wedding night. He tells Horn that \"there was a taint that came from \nneither Hyacinth or me, but from the act itself.\n\nOf course, if Hy is Fava in dream-travel (plugging my newest theory), \nshe is therefore 100% REAL WOMAN. So the taint could not come from Hy in \nthat case. But the Rajan warns Hoof that, although the promiscuous \nJahlee, was a true woman sexual relations between humans and inhumi in \ndream travel are nevertheless wrong.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320341087.89890.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T17:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2CACB.8010101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hyacinth\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:09 AM\nOn 11/2/2011 7:31 PM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As someone who is rereading Long Sun in search of\nmysteries and\npuzzles I would love to hear your theory on Hyacinths\nnature as well\nas anything in the text that suggests she is not a\nfemale. This is a\ntheory I have never heard before and Am interested in\nhearing more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe Hyacinth is Fava (both beans...and beans were\nbelieved by the Romans to contain the souls of the dead). I\nthink that after the end of SS, the Rajan reclaims Fava from\nthe World of Dreams where she has been stuck. Then he goes\nback in time, says hello to Silk, then goes further back\nwith Fava and releases her into the Whorl as Hyacinth. He\nthen takes a job at the Juzgado (Silk's mother's intention\nfor him) and is identified as her \"father\". Thus, Silk\nmeets him but WE never do.\n\nBetween that time and when she meets Silk, she \"forgets\"\nher origin (perhaps the same way the Rajan forgot that he\nwas Silk), remembering Green only as a green umbrella and\nher former form as a dress, both of which she got from her\nmother (who bequeathed to her a human soul). She suddenly\nremembers everything at the end of Exodus of the LS when she\nis faced with the prospect of returning to Green.\n\nThis explains why Hy didn't know her mother was dead. The\nmother she met in Mainframe was the mother of her human\nsoul--her inhumi portion has been left behind on Blue.\n\nProblems (some small some bigger)\n\n1) Chenille says that Hy's father rented her out to the\nfamily of Colonel when she was a child. She says \"they had a\nlot of sprats\". Many have opined from that that Hy had lots\nof siblings. Actually, no. It was the Colonel who had a lot\nof children. Hy was being hired as a nanny.\n\n2) Hy seems to eat. Auk brings her a fruit which she\ndemands from him.\nActually, though, we don't see her eat it. She claims to\nhave eaten the fruit whole, pit and all (improbable).\nI'm convinced she ditched the fruit. But what was she doing\nwhile she was alone when Auk was getting that food?\nAlso, Marble asserts that Hy doesn't actually eat at all.\nRemember that the Rajan himself claimed to only pretend to\neat until Spring came and he was ravenous (Hello, trees!\n--because the Rajan is a Neighbor who has possessed the\nbodies of Horn and Silk consecutively).\n\n3)? Dave Tallman has pointed out that it *appears*\nFava is blonde in dream world. This is the part I'm still\ncollating. But I don't think so.\n\n4) Hy has some pretty contemptuous things to say about her\n\"father\".\nThis is a real toughy -- -- if one takes it at face value\nand assumes that this is Hy's constant and forever opinion\nof her father, then it is difficult to overcome. I suspect\nshe is in intermittent communication with each other and\nthis statement represents a recent falling out with him.\n\nSo there it is, for what it is worth.\nThe following was something I wrote even before I came up\nwith the \"male chem\" theory:\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/worm.htm\n\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, there is also the possibility that doll Mucor and Fava in the dreams are retrieving Hy's soul, and that they are separate, but they can serve as a conduit to the past without ever \"being\" her, only combining in a spritual gestalt for the dreams.\n\nheadache time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320341376.34542.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T17:29:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2CACB.8010101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a similar switch in Castleview where we see one girl die and are then at the funeral of the other girl that reminds me of the Fava and friends situation, really disconcerting. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320342732.94367.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T17:52:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2CACB.8010101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is also a fair amount of ambiguously creepy same sex molestation in Wolfe for an author considered so heterodox in his morality system, even extending to a Catholic priest being raped at one point. The gay warrior who likes young men in the Soldier series is actually likeable and manly.\n\nI actually don't like reading that stuff into his texts, to be honest, as I sometimes do tend to be the heterodox fellow with a slant toward benevolent fascism that Wolfe is misconstrued as being, but some of the undercurrents tend to point at times to things I don't like (suicidal Silk, for example)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T18:48:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<1320342732.94367.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: There is also a fair amount of ambiguously creepy same sex molestation\nin Wolfe for an author considered so heterodox in his morality system, even extending\nto a Catholic priest being raped at one point. The gay warrior who likes young men in\nthe Soldier series is actually likeable and manly.\nI actually don't like reading that stuff into his texts, to be honest, as I sometimes do\ntend to be the heterodox fellow with a slant toward benevolent fascism that Wolfe is\nmisconstrued as being, but some of the undercurrents tend to point at times to things\nI don't like (suicidal Silk, for example)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh, well, this cuts to the heart of the matter for me. We are willing to discuss the\nramifications of Wolfe being Catholic on his work. If he were openly gay, would that not\nsimilarly impact our interpretation of his work? Should we assume that Wolfe's long\nmarriage and multiple children define him as a 100% red-blooded heterosexual?\n\nI get the sense that bisexuality (and perhaps pedophilia) are masked in Severian's story.\nAnd Silk- he is so likable and good, he has such strength in his faith and such skill in\nhis social interactions and combat/military situations...yet, the author clearly intends\nto show him as a flawed figure; his own self-loathing is his downfall. Is it fair to suggest\nthat all failure in regard to Silk may be traced to Hyacinth? What might Wolfe be\ntrying to say with that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I believe Hyacinth is Fava" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes! I have encountered this theory in a different context. Thanks for reviewing it for\nus James. As you say, there is some conflicting evidence to be found, but it is worth\nthinking about.\n\nOne connection I see clearly is the aspect of sexual unwholesomeness that radiates from\nHyacinth and seems to be shared by male and female inhumi. Add Severian's passion for Agia\nand Juturna to that same assessment.\n\nI find this in direct contrast with the more pure and innocent passion felt by our narrator\nfor Dorcas, Pia and perhaps Bugundofora (while the feelings toward Seawrack are a very\ninteresting mix of these two types).\n\nA further contrast can be seen to whore and nymph, in the prim, practical connection our narrator\nfeels for Valeria and Nettle. Surely Wolfe is not the only man who has felt that no one woman\ncould ever be all things a man needs. For me, Wolfe short answer to James Jordan speaks volumes:\n\nJJ: Is Valeria the ideal love for him?\n\nGW: No. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2E6F7.8060406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:09:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2CACB.8010101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 12:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n4) Hy has some pretty contemptuous things to say about her \"father\".\nThis is a real toughy -- -- if one takes it at face value and assumes \nthat this is Hy's constant and forever opinion of her father, then it \nis difficult to overcome. I suspect she is in intermittent \ncommunication with each other and this statement represents a recent \nfalling out with him. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, what she says of her father is that he was \"a pig's arse\".\nIf one sees The Long Sun/Short Sun as a single novel (as I do), this \ncan't help but to recall Pig and his relationship to the original Silk \n(recognized but still not nailed down). The name and the term might be \ncoincidental. Still, \"pig's arse\" is not a typical insult. Usually it is \n\"horse's arse\". Leaving open the possibility that Hyacinth or Wolfe is \nrelaying something other than what was understood on the initial reading.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:44:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2E6F7.8060406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, what she says of her father is that he was\n\"a pig's arse\". If one sees The Long Sun/Short Sun as a single novel (as I\ndo), this can't help but to recall Pig and his relationship to the original\nSilk (recognized but still not nailed down). The name and the term might be\ncoincidental. Still, \"pig's arse\" is not a typical insult. Usually it is\n\"horse's arse\". Leaving open the possibility that Hyacinth or Wolfe is\nrelaying something other than what was understood on the initial reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm.. It might be a stretch to think that Wolfe has his minor godling character\nfrom RttW in mind when he was creating Hyacinth's character. But not an\nimpossible stretch. I am struck by the use of the word \"arse\". American english\nwould actually more commonly use the term \"horse's ass\". Does Pig speak in some\nsort of British accent. I don't have my book but I think maybe he does?\n\nIs there any way the \"pig's arse\" comment could link more immediately to Phaea?\nWith Pig being a godling and Phaea being a pig-associated god of the Whorl it\nalmost cries out that there be a connection. The Tartaros connection is there\nalso, of course, but if we must choose one (which might not be necessary) the\npig connection seems stronger to me. Names, names names rule the Sun series imho. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2F5D0.1070904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T20:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, what she says of her father is that he was\n\"a pig's arse\". If one sees The Long Sun/Short Sun as a single novel (as I\ndo), this can't help but to recall Pig and his relationship to the original\nSilk (recognized but still not nailed down). The name and the term might be\ncoincidental. Still, \"pig's arse\" is not a typical insult. Usually it is\n\"horse's arse\". Leaving open the possibility that Hyacinth or Wolfe is\nrelaying something other than what was understood on the initial reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nHm.. It might be a stretch to think that Wolfe has his minor godling character\nfrom RttW in mind when he was creating Hyacinth's character. But not an\nimpossible stretch. I am struck by the use of the word \"arse\". American english\nwould actually more commonly use the term \"horse's ass\". Does Pig speak in some\nsort of British accent. I don't have my book but I think maybe he does?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scottish brogue, IIRC" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3027B.5030909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2F5D0.1070904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (03-11-2011 20:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, what she says of her father is that he was\n\"a pig's arse\". If one sees The Long Sun/Short Sun as a single novel (as I\ndo), this can't help but to recall Pig and his relationship to the original\nSilk (recognized but still not nailed down). The name and the term might be\ncoincidental. Still, \"pig's arse\" is not a typical insult. Usually it is\n\"horse's arse\". Leaving open the possibility that Hyacinth or Wolfe is\nrelaying something other than what was understood on the initial reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nHm.. It might be a stretch to think that Wolfe has his minor godling\ncharacter\nfrom RttW in mind when he was creating Hyacinth's character. But not an\nimpossible stretch. I am struck by the use of the word \"arse\". American\nenglish\nwould actually more commonly use the term \"horse's ass\". Does Pig speak in\nsome\nsort of British accent. I don't have my book but I think maybe he does?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scottish brogue, IIRC" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iyrc? Are these rhetorical questions? Everybody knows what Pig speaks.\nDo you also not remember you've presented the Fava-Hy theory just a few \nmonths ago, albeit with not so much detail?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3068A.7010809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB3027B.5030909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Scottish brogue, IIRC" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio wrote:\nIyrc? Are these rhetorical questions? Everybody knows what Pig speaks.\nDo you also not remember you've presented the Fava-Hy theory just a \nfew months ago, albeit with not so much detail?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "???\nOn this subject, I like to give people are reason to NOT pick irrelevant \nfights. \"IIRC\" was just one of those ways. I don't want to get in a \nfight over whether it is Welsh or what-have-you.\nI can't imagine why I would be paranoid that there would be some \npugnacious sphincter out there looking to up-end the tables over nothing.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB30A44.9010802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:40:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB3068A.7010809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (03-11-2011 21:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Scottish brogue, IIRC" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio wrote:\nIyrc? Are these rhetorical questions? Everybody knows what Pig speaks.\nDo you also not remember you've presented the Fava-Hy theory just a few\nmonths ago, albeit with not so much detail?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???\nOn this subject, I like to give people are reason to NOT pick irrelevant\nfights. \"IIRC\" was just one of those ways. I don't want to get in a fight\nover whether it is Welsh or what-have-you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In matters of opinion, you have showed no problems in asserting stuff \nwithout qualification. In a matter of fact such as this, you take care to \nplace such caveats. How is the unwary reader to know what is established and \nwhat is conjecture?\nYou should moderate your temper, btw." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB31226.7050800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB30A44.9010802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 5:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nIn matters of opinion, you have showed no problems in asserting stuff \nwithout qualification. In a matter of fact such as this, you take care \nto place such caveats. How is the unwary reader to know what is \nestablished and what is conjecture?\nYou should moderate your temper, btw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "JAMES should?\n\nNever mind---I don't follow it anyway. If you guys have an old argument \nto revive, well ... you know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB31809.8060200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB31226.7050800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (03-11-2011 22:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 5:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In matters of opinion, you have showed no problems in asserting stuff\nwithout qualification. In a matter of fact such as this, you take care to\nplace such caveats. How is the unwary reader to know what is established\nand what is conjecture?\nYou should moderate your temper, btw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JAMES should?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoever is unable to maintain civil language, whoever can't face a question \nwithout snapping, should." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Never mind---I don't follow it anyway. If you guys have an old argument to\nrevive, well ... you know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no argument here. I was puzzled first by James apparently not \nremembering Hy-as-Fava having been discussed at painful length not so long \nago, then by his apparent uncertainty as to Pig's language. Should Gene \nWolfe have done something like that in one of his books, it would constitute \n'clues' to some mystery." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3D2FE.7030800@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-04T11:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth \"post mortem\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frankly, I think that before discussing the theories about \"masculinity\" of\nHyacinth it would be useful to think about the causes of her death.\n\nTo me it looks like some nasty gynaecological disease, like cervical cancer\n(she is about 40). It is very probably related to her early situation\nas a \"sex worker\". Transsexuals usually die of other causes.\nIf it is breast cancer, again, nothing to do with implants.\nAs far as I remember, it was discussed somewhere (with Chenille?)\nthat the girls at Orchid had to get rid often of the foetuses. It can\nexplain easily the infertility of Hyacinth. It is told also that she\nand Silk tried to have children.\nThe desperation of Silk is better explained in this context,\nif you add to the brew some \"masculinity\" or \"transsexuality\" it will\nonly confuse the matter.\n\nMore arguments against this theory.\n\nThere was some real \"transsexual\" (or something very close) in the story \ntold by\nSpider to Mint and Remora. When it really plays the role in the story\nit is told explicitly - even if it is needed only to create an \"atmosphere\".\n\nI think the argument that Hyacinth in the story about Apollo and Hyacinth\nwas male is weak - the Hyacinth (flower) grew from his blood, it doesn't \nmean\nthe flower is male. The girls names in the Whorl are given after plants\nregardless to the gender of the word in Roman languages.\n(By the way, Lily in French is \"Lys\" and\nit is \"male\".) Amor (love) also was male, and it didn't bother\neven the medieval Catholics.\n\nSergei" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F5C8.1070803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth \"post mortem\"", "in_reply_to": "<4EB3D2FE.7030800@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 7:56 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\nThere was some real \"transsexual\" (or something very close) in the \nstory told by\nSpider to Mint and Remora. When it really plays the role in the story\nit is told explicitly - even if it is needed only to create an \n\"atmosphere\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The spy Titi, yes. It is made quite clear.\n\nI don;t think it's atmosphere, though---I think Wolfe wants to include \nhomosexuals etc. as imperfect human beings trying to be better with poor \nmodels to work from. They are imperfect in a certain way that fits with \nhis concerns (obsessions?) with the body and procreation.\n\nI think the \"male Hy\" theory needs some way to make Hy male in a way \nthat does not involve genitals. For example---just an example---if we \nknew she were a female Typhon, i.e., a clone of him with a bit of a \ntwist to make her female.\n\nShe'd then be a potentially aggressive masculine personality (if you \naccept Typhon's engineered general genetic superiority) in a very female \nbody. If we assume that sex change surgery is unheard of in the Whorl, \nthen that makes her almost, not quite, a transsexual who has no concept \nof transsexuality. As a prostitute, she is unspecific about her partners \nand may even register as bisexual. So she might be another type of the \nimperfect human striving to work it all out.\n\nAgain, just an example, with none of the implications worked out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320467849.96603.YahooMailNeo@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T04:37:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2F5D0.1070904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Lee Berman wrote:\n Does Pig speak in some\n sort of British accent. I don't have my book but I think maybe he does?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scottish brogue, IIRC" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scottish-ish, anyway.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }