{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6096", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6096, "subject": "South America", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2011-11-03T12:04:32+00:00", "last": "2011-11-05T22:55:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T12:04:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) South America", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: The Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, \nand there are far more suggestions of South America than of Africa or \nAustralasia, but I don't think we're supposed to connect it with the \nreal present-day South America, still less connect the mountains with \nthe Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting! The debate does carry on after all. I would agree with the\nassessment that there are far more S. America references than to any other\ngeographic location on earth. This includes extant and fossil animals and \nhuman cultural references.\n \nSo I guess the question becomes: if Wolfe didn't intend us to associate the \nCommonwealth with South America why did he use such an overwhelming volume of \nSouth American references? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320376712.10917.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T03:18:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) South America", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: The Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, \nand there are far more suggestions of South America than of Africa or \nAustralasia, but I don't think we're supposed to connect it with the \nreal present-day South America, still less connect the mountains with \nthe Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting! The debate does carry on after all. I would agree with the\nassessment that there are far more S. America references than to any other\ngeographic location on earth. This includes extant and fossil animals and \nhuman cultural references.\n\nSo I guess the question becomes: if Wolfe didn't intend us to associate the \nCommonwealth with South America why did he use such an overwhelming volume of \nSouth American references? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Color and flavor. These things aren't incidental--you remember that BotNS\nstarted with a cool costume for a con, and the storyteller in \"The Tale of the\nRose and that Nightingale\" says that \"fantasy, color, and pathos are the\nchief\" merits of a tale. Writers have to give to airy nothing a local habitation\nand a name.\n\n\nA good source of solid details is real places and cultures. South America worked\nwell--it's not overdone like medieval Europe, it's different from Byzantium, it\nties in with the character who has resemblances to Borges.\n\nI agree with something David Stockhoff said--we can see the continent as\nthe result of a glance at a map of South America, not detailed study of the\nmap. I put it too strongly when I said I didn't think we were supposed to\nconnect it with South America, but I still see no reason to connect the\nmountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T13:01:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) South America", "in_reply_to": "<1320376712.10917.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I agree with something David Stockhoff said--we can see the \ncontinent as the result of a glance at a map of South America, not detailed \nstudy of the map. I put it too strongly when I said I didn't think we were \nsupposed to connect it with South America, but I still see no reason to connect \nthe mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI wouldn't (of course) argue that the Commonwealth is an exact match to South\nAmerica but I don't think you are recognizing how close the match is. The \nCommonwealth has pampas where S. America has pampas. There are the cold islands\nto the south. There is the mention of the large Ouroboros river just where we'd \nwould expect the Amazon to be. Gyoll tracks quite nicely to the Rio de la Plata + \nRio Uruguay. There is even a town named Salto on the route north. There is the \nmention of \"the cataracts\" in the vicinity of where Iguazu Falls would be. And what \nother mountain range in the world has a lake with floating islands other than the \nAndes? These are not incidental features of S. America but (except Salto) are all \nmajor, defining landmarks of the continent. \n \nWith regard to Nessus, it does track geographically with Buenos Aires but there is\nalso the resident blind librarian there who surely can't be dismissed in evoking \nArgentinian Jorge Luis Borges.\n \nThe name \"Nessus\" sounds a bit like Buenos Aires and I'm sure Wolfe was aware of that\nin picking it. But I don't think that was his primary purpose. We are told the name\nNessus is meant to suggest poison and this is an ironic twist to the \"good air\" \nmeaning of Buenos Aires.\n \nBut I think the primary purpose for choosing the name Nessus and invoking poison was\nto focus a laser pointer on the Hercules story. I don't think Wolfe was successful in\nthis for most of his readers, unfortunately. But I see much in the subtext of Severian's\nstory which tracks to that myth. But that is a different discussion. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320533744.96983.YahooMailNeo@web114702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T22:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) South America", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I agree with something David Stockhoff said--we can see the \ncontinent as the result of a glance at a map of South America, not detailed \nstudy of the map. I put it too strongly when I said I didn't think we \nwere \nsupposed to connect it with South America, but I still see no reason to \nconnect \nthe mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't (of course) argue that the Commonwealth is an exact match to \nSouth\nAmerica but I don't think you are recognizing how close the match is. The \nCommonwealth has pampas where S. America has pampas. There are the cold islands\nto the south." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the continents but Africa have big grasslands at temperate latitudes and\ncold islands off their high-latitude coasts. I don't see these as \"defining\nfeatures\", as you call them below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is the mention of the large Ouroboros river just where \nwe'd would expect the Amazon to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps not \"just\" where. It's around the same latitudes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gyoll tracks quite nicely to the Rio de la Plata + Rio Uruguay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the Parana? Did I miss another river?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is even a town named Salto on the route north. There is the \nmention of \"the cataracts\" in the vicinity of where Iguazu Falls would \nbe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although that area is close to the mountains in the Commonwealth and far\nfrom them in South America." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what \nother mountain range in the world has a lake with floating islands other than \nthe Andes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Himalayas.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prashar_Lake\n\nAccording to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_island, they're fairly common.\nTo take you less literally, I don't know of another place where people live on\nartificial floating islands, and as I think I said, I do think Lake Titicaca is the\ninspiration for Lake Diuturna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are not incidental features of S. America but (except Salto) are \nall major, defining landmarks of the continent. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you see, I don't agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With regard to Nessus, it does track geographically with Buenos Aires" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except it's on the west coast, not the east. Also, Master Ash says Nessus\nwas once a city by the sea, not a river. However, at Buenos Aires the Rio\nde la Plata has fresh water and isn't a very good choice for the metaphor\nfor time that Ash is suggesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but there \nis also the resident blind librarian there who surely can't be dismissed in \nevoking? Argentinian Jorge Luis Borges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did mention him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name \"Nessus\" sounds a bit like Buenos Aires" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and I'm sure Wolfe was aware of that in picking it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSo neither of us thinks it's a perfect match for South America or unrelated to\nit, but I think it's less close than you do, and in particular I don't think we can\nuse geographical details of South America to help us read the book.\n\nThanks for making me waste lots of time looking up the geography of South\nAmerica and other places :-)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }