Subject: (urth) South America

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:04:32 +0000

>Jerry Friedman: The Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, 
>and there are far more suggestions of South America than of Africa or 
>Australasia, but I don't think we're supposed to connect it with the 
>real present-day South America, still less connect the mountains with 
>the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires.

Interesting! The debate does carry on after all. I would agree with the
assessment that there are far more S. America references than to any other
geographic location on earth. This includes extant and fossil animals and 
human cultural references.
 
So I guess the question becomes: if Wolfe didn't intend us to associate the 
Commonwealth with South America why did he use such an overwhelming volume of 
South American references?

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 03:18:32 +0000

>South American references? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? 

Color and flavor. These things aren't incidental--you remember that BotNS
started with a cool costume for a con, and the storyteller in "The Tale of the
Rose and that Nightingale" says that "fantasy, color, and pathos are the
chief" merits of a tale. Writers have to give to airy nothing a local habitation
and a name.

A good source of solid details is real places and cultures. South America worked
well--it's not overdone like medieval Europe, it's different from Byzantium, it
ties in with the character who has resemblances to Borges.

I agree with something David Stockhoff said--we can see the continent as
the result of a glance at a map of South America, not detailed study of the
map. I put it too strongly when I said I didn't think we were supposed to
connect it with South America, but I still see no reason to connect the
mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:01:37 +0000

>Jerry Friedman: I agree with something David Stockhoff said--we can see the 
>continent as the result of a glance at a map of South America, not detailed 
>study of the map.  I put it too strongly when I said I didn't think we were 
>supposed to connect it with South America, but I still see no reason to connect 
>the mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires.
 
I wouldn't (of course) argue that the Commonwealth is an exact match to South
America but I don't think you are recognizing how close the match is. The 
Commonwealth has pampas where S. America has pampas. There are the cold islands
to the south.  There is the mention of the large Ouroboros river just where we'd 
would expect the Amazon to be. Gyoll tracks quite nicely to the Rio de la Plata + 
Rio Uruguay. There is even a town named Salto on the route north. There is the 
mention of "the cataracts" in the vicinity of where Iguazu Falls would be. And what 
other mountain range in the world has a lake with floating islands other than the 
Andes? These are not incidental features of S. America but (except Salto) are all 
major, defining landmarks of the continent. 
 
With regard to Nessus, it does track geographically with Buenos Aires but there is
also the resident blind librarian there who surely can't be dismissed in evoking 
Argentinian Jorge Luis Borges.
 
The name "Nessus" sounds a bit like Buenos Aires and I'm sure Wolfe was aware of that
in picking it. But I don't think that was his primary purpose. We are told the name
Nessus is meant to suggest poison and this is an ironic twist to the "good air" 
meaning of Buenos Aires.
 
But I think the primary purpose for choosing the name Nessus and invoking poison was
to focus a laser pointer on the Hercules story. I don't think Wolfe was successful in
this for most of his readers, unfortunately. But I see much in the subtext of Severian's
story which tracks to that myth. But that is a different discussion.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:55:44 +0000

> From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

> to the south.

All the continents but Africa have big grasslands at temperate latitudes and
cold islands off their high-latitude coasts. I don't see these as "defining
features", as you call them below.

> There is the mention of the large Ouroboros river just where 
> we'd would expect the Amazon to be.

Perhaps not "just" where. It's around the same latitudes.

> Gyoll tracks quite nicely to the Rio de la Plata + Rio Uruguay.

What about the Parana? Did I miss another river?

> There is even a town named Salto on the route north. There is the 
> mention of "the cataracts" in the vicinity of where Iguazu Falls would 
> be.

Although that area is close to the mountains in the Commonwealth and far
from them in South America.

>And what 
> other mountain range in the world has a lake with floating islands other than 
> the Andes?

The Himalayas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prashar_Lake

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_island, they're fairly common.
To take you less literally, I don't know of another place where people live on
artificial floating islands, and as I think I said, I do think Lake Titicaca is the
inspiration for Lake Diuturna.

> These are not incidental features of S. America but (except Salto) are 
> all major, defining landmarks of the continent. 

As you see, I don't agree.

> With regard to Nessus, it does track geographically with Buenos Aires

Except it's on the west coast, not the east. Also, Master Ash says Nessus
was once a city by the sea, not a river. However, at Buenos Aires the Rio
de la Plata has fresh water and isn't a very good choice for the metaphor
for time that Ash is suggesting.

> but there 
> is also the resident blind librarian there who surely can't be dismissed in 
> evoking? Argentinian Jorge Luis Borges.

I did mention him.

> The name "Nessus" sounds a bit like Buenos Aires

A little bit.

> and I'm sure Wolfe was aware of that in picking it.
...

So neither of us thinks it's a perfect match for South America or unrelated to
it, but I think it's less close than you do, and in particular I don't think we can
use geographical details of South America to help us read the book.

Thanks for making me waste lots of time looking up the geography of South
America and other places :-)

Jerry Friedman