{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6099", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6099, "subject": "vanished people=Hieros", "messages": 259, "voices": 19, "first": "2011-11-06T02:50:39+00:00", "last": "2011-12-06T14:19:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T02:50:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First off I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right. I just\nwanted to say that I remember reading an interview with Wolfe where he\nis asked if the Neighbors are the Hierodules and he replies that they\nare not nor are they cooperating with them in any way to shape\nhumanity. Just wondering if any one can reconcile this with the Urth\nis Green theory being discussed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320549779.20341.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T03:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, larry miller wrote:\nFrom: larry miller \nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 7:50 PM\nFirst off I am not trying to prove\nanyone wrong or right. I just\nwanted to say that I remember reading an interview with\nWolfe where he\nis asked if the Neighbors are the Hierodules and he replies\nthat they\nare not nor are they cooperating with them in any way to\nshape\nhumanity. Just wondering if any one can reconcile\nthis with the Urth\nis Green theory being discussed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hopefully we can find that interview because I don't remember anything like that from an interview, only a refutation that they were related to the Shadow People of fifth head of cerberus. (or more specifically that St.Anne and accompanying planet were not Green/Blue)\n\nHe DID in an interview from Gevers and Jordan deny that Green/Blue was any combination of the following:\n\n\"GW: None of those you suggest. I began with the idea of writing about a good man in a bad religion. That's all.\n\nJJ: Aww, why not? I might as well at least ask one of the $64,000 questions, so I'll just go for broke. (Hmm. I've gotta be very precise here. Okay, here goes:) Which of the following, if any, are physically (not in some merely literary or symbolic sense) the same planets as Blue and Green, in the same order?:\n\nUshas and Lune\nUrth and Lune\nLune and Ushas\nLune and Urth\nTwo Urths\nTwo Ushases\nTwo Lunes\n\nGW: None. \"\n\nwhich I can't respond to, not sure if he was serious in that answer or felt it was a \"cheating\" type. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T03:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320549779.20341.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interview was titled A Magus of Many Suns and was conducted by\nNick Gevers. I found it by googling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Sat, 11/5/11, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: larry miller \nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 7:50 PM\nFirst off I am not trying to prove\nanyone wrong or right. I just\nwanted to say that I remember reading an interview with\nWolfe where he\nis asked if the Neighbors are the Hierodules and he replies\nthat they\nare not nor are they cooperating with them in any way to\nshape\nhumanity. Just wondering if any one can reconcile\nthis with the Urth\nis Green theory being discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hopefully we can find that interview because I don't remember anything like\nthat from an interview, only a refutation that they were related to the\nShadow People of fifth head of cerberus. (or more specifically that St.Anne\nand accompanying planet were not Green/Blue)\n\nHe DID in an interview from Gevers and Jordan deny that Green/Blue was any\ncombination of the following:\n\n\"GW: None of those you suggest. I began with the idea of writing about a\ngood man in a bad religion. That's all.\n\nJJ: Aww, why not? I might as well at least ask one of the $64,000 questions,\nso I'll just go for broke. (Hmm. I've gotta be very precise here. Okay, here\ngoes:) Which of the following, if any, are physically (not in some merely\nliterary or symbolic sense) the same planets as Blue and Green, in the same\norder?:\n\nUshas and Lune\nUrth and Lune\nLune and Ushas\nLune and Urth\nTwo Urths\nTwo Ushases\nTwo Lunes\n\nGW: None. \"\n\nwhich I can't respond to, not sure if he was serious in that answer or felt\nit was a \"cheating\" type.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320551070.37856.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T03:44:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, larry miller wrote:\nFrom: larry miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 8:39 PM\nThe interview was titled A Magus of\nMany Suns and was conducted by\nNick Gevers. I found it by googling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks. That seems definitive to me, the vanished people are certainly not heirodules, nor are they cooperating with them. Great. So ... how was the Green man related to the heirodules? and what about the heirogrammates? time to re-read the whole sun sequence I guess." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6041B.3030308@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T03:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 9:50 PM, larry miller wrote:\nFirst off I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right. I just\nwanted to say that I remember reading an interview with Wolfe where he\nis asked if the Neighbors are the Hierodules and he replies that they\nare not nor are they cooperating with them in any way to shape\nhumanity. Just wondering if any one can reconcile this with the Urth\nis Green theory being discussed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Green is Urth, and the vine-covered ruins are a long-abandoned \nNessus, then the Neighbors are the remnants of the final, most ambitious \nuplift of the _actual_ human-cognate Hieros before their Ascension. Urth \nwas an unfashionable backwater by then, inhabited chiefly by other \nexperiements thus the four-armed gear and other nonhumanoid amenities. \nThe flora-sprung ur-Neighbors eventually smothered the other underpeople \nraces.\n\nThe continuity mis-matches between the series are explainable as the \ndifferences between manvantara-iterations. Just as the futuristic BotNS \nis actually in the deep deep past, the Short Sun books are in deep in \nthat past's past." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320551486.28844.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T03:51:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320551070.37856.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "let me get this straight. mankind will evolve into heirogrammates (?). What is the green man? I am fairly certain the vanished people were what was left of humanity after the trees \"ate\" them (the inhuma being the only problem the trees couldn't \"solve\").\n\nI understood that the heirodules were working for the heirogrammates, so in that case Gene saying the vanished people are not cooperating with the hierodules really nixes that. I actually put credence in that interview statement after reading it. Are the hierodules cooperating with the hierogrammates? Or just doing what they \"think\" the heirogrammates would want?\n\nIf there is no possibility that the vanished peole are heirogrammates, then I suppose I have to fall back on their relationship to the green man as vegetative hybrids with access to the corridors of time, but still not feeling good about that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB60966.1070705@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T04:13:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320551070.37856.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:44 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Sat, 11/5/11, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: larry miller\nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 8:39 PM\nThe interview was titled A Magus of\nMany Suns and was conducted by\nNick Gevers. I found it by googling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thanks. That seems definitive to me, the vanished people are certainly not heirodules, nor are they cooperating with them. Great. So ... how was the Green man related to the heirodules? and what about the heirogrammates? time to re-read the whole sun sequence I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Green Man represents \"good\" genetic engineering; algae uplifted to \njoin with humanity, to uplift humanity from material need and greed to \njoin with God.\n\nThe Yesodis are the the red-headed stepchildren of mankind, the get of \n\"bad\" genetic engineering to technically side-step slavery by making \nnon-people to do the dirty work. Sadly, they do the same by making \nhierodules (both biological and mechanical) to do *their* dirty work, \nand the hierodule Inire further makes animal-based underpeople to help \nwith his support of the Autarchy. He may also be the source of the \ntechnology that facilitates the exultant exploitation of the khaibits.\n\nThus the evil that men do" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB60DCA.6020402@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T04:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320551486.28844.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:51 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nlet me get this straight. mankind will evolve into heirogrammates (?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once, humankind evolved into \"the Hieros\" (high ones), who created the \ncreaturs that later became the hierogrammates (holy names) from human \nand unintelligent extraterrestrial DNA.\n\nThe Hieros vanished and the hierogrammates took over stewardship of our \nuniverse Briah by ascending to the white hole universe Yesod.\n\nThey in turn create hierodules (holy slaves) to take on various \nsubordinate tasks, and hierarchs (holy scribes) to record and supervise \nat intermediate levels.\n\nThis happens on a galaxy-by-galaxy basis, and each time Briah ends and \nis created again in a big bang, some hierarchs may graduate to become \nhierogrammates.\n\nIt's possible that hierodules can be promoted, but most only live as \nlong as their job was intended to last so tough titty for them.\n\nLazy and forgetful posters abbreviate those created races as \"the \nhieros\" despite my many appeals not to confuse people while the \nperfectly good label \"Yesodis\" is available." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T17:45:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB60DCA.6020402@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Green Man is Vertumnus, the \"changing one.\" \"Vert\" also happens to mean\n\"green.\"\n\nI think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they both\nare known to change shape, and that he is trying to influence Severian to\ncreate a future in which his race evolves from humanity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6D288.70102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T18:31:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320549779.20341.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nHe DID in an interview from Gevers and Jordan deny that Green/Blue was any combination of the following:\n\n\"\nJJ: Aww, why not? I might as well at least ask one of the $64,000 questions, so I'll just go for broke. (Hmm. I've gotta be very precise here. Okay, here goes:) Which of the following, if any, are physically (not in some merely literary or symbolic sense) the same planets as Blue and Green, in the same order?:\n\nUshas and Lune\nUrth and Lune\nLune and Ushas\nLune and Urth\nTwo Urths\nTwo Ushases\nTwo Lunes\n\nGW: None. \"\n\nwhich I can't respond to, not sure if he was serious in that answer or felt it was a \"cheating\" type." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it an impolite question, but I'm not sure GW would give a wrong \nreply tout court. Notice that Blue is too big to be Lune, so Blue+Green \ncan well be P+Urth, where P is anything but Lune or Urth - it can be \nMars or some rogue planet drawn by the WF, or something else related or \nunrelated to the WF. In fact I find the idea of an unknown planet drawn \nby the WF interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6D521.4060602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-06T18:42:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB60DCA.6020402@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 12:32 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/5/2011 10:51 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "let me get this straight. mankind will evolve into heirogrammates (?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once, humankind evolved into \"the Hieros\" (high ones), who created the \ncreaturs that later became the hierogrammates (holy names) from human \nand unintelligent extraterrestrial DNA.\n\nThe Hieros vanished and the hierogrammates took over stewardship of \nour universe Briah by ascending to the white hole universe Yesod.\n\nThey in turn create hierodules (holy slaves) to take on various \nsubordinate tasks, and hierarchs (holy scribes) to record and \nsupervise at intermediate levels.\n\nThis happens on a galaxy-by-galaxy basis, and each time Briah ends and \nis created again in a big bang, some hierarchs may graduate to become \nhierogrammates.\n\nIt's possible that hierodules can be promoted, but most only live as \nlong as their job was intended to last so tough titty for them.\n\nLazy and forgetful posters abbreviate those created races as \"the \nhieros\" despite my many appeals not to confuse people while the \nperfectly good label \"Yesodis\" is available." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I beg forgetfulness. \"Yesodis\" is more than adequate, if I can remember it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6D835.3060003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-06T18:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB6041B.3030308@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 11:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/5/2011 9:50 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "First off I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right. I just\nwanted to say that I remember reading an interview with Wolfe where he\nis asked if the Neighbors are the Hierodules and he replies that they\nare not nor are they cooperating with them in any way to shape\nhumanity. Just wondering if any one can reconcile this with the Urth\nis Green theory being discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Green is Urth, and the vine-covered ruins are a long-abandoned \nNessus, then the Neighbors are the remnants of the final, most \nambitious uplift of the _actual_ human-cognate Hieros before their \nAscension. Urth was an unfashionable backwater by then, inhabited \nchiefly by other experiements thus the four-armed gear and other \nnonhumanoid amenities. The flora-sprung ur-Neighbors eventually \nsmothered the other underpeople races.\n\nThe continuity mis-matches between the series are explainable as the \ndifferences between manvantara-iterations. Just as the futuristic \nBotNS is actually in the deep deep past, the Short Sun books are in \ndeep in that past's past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then where did Blue go?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T20:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thats interesting. I dont think I have ever heard that theory\nproposed before. Do you know of any textual evidence that would\nsupport such a conclusion? It would seem to explain Inires\nconstruction of the Botanic Gardens and his preservation of plant life\nfrom Urths history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/11, Nick Lee wrote:\nThe Green Man is Vertumnus, the \"changing one.\" \"Vert\" also happens to mean\n\"green.\"\n\nI think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they both\nare known to change shape, and that he is trying to influence Severian to\ncreate a future in which his race evolves from humanity." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T20:58:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people = Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nthanks. “That seems definitive to me, the vanished people are certainly not heirodules, nor are they cooperating with them. ?Great. ?So ... how was the Green man related to the heirodules” “and what about the heirogrammates” ?time to re-read the whole sun sequence I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I read it:\n\nHieros were super-evolved humans in a former cycle of the universe.\n(Malrubius in COTA leaves it uncertain wheter it was this cycle, a\nformer one or a future one, but Tzadkiel in _Urth_ seems sure it was a\nformer one.)\n\nHierogrammates were beings, originally of a non-human origin, shaped\nby Hieros: they ultimately transcended their makers and escaped to\nYesod.\n\nHierodules are beings, also of non-human origin, and indeed of more\nthan one species, shaped by Hierogrammates, more quickly, in earlier\nstages of the present (Severian's) cycle - and now working under\ntheir command (though not strictly _for_ them, according to Barbatus).\n\nThe Green Man is a development of humans in the far future of\nSeverian's cycle, and so a step between the humans of Sev's time and a\nnew generation of Hieros. He is not, therefore anything like a\nHierodule or a Hierogrammate.\n\n_If_ the Neighbours belong to the future of Urth, they also fit in\nsomewhere along this process of evolution, and so are not Hierodules\nor Hierogrammates - so Wolfe's statement does not create a problem\nthere.\n\nIncidentally, the name 'Hieros' - which only occurs twice - is weird.\n'Hierodule' means 'holy slave' and 'hierogrammate' means 'holy\nscribe'; and both these names are explained in terms of their relation\nto the Increate. So why the super-evolved humans, who bear no special\nrelation the Increate that we know of, should be called Hieros, is\nsomething of a mystery." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T21:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people = Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lazy and forgetful posters abbreviate those created races as \"the\nhieros\" despite my many appeals not to confuse people while the\nperfectly good label \"Yesodis\" is available." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far as I can tell, while the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs live in\nYesod, the Hierodules don't, so I don't think that name is really\nsuitable for them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6F92E.8040601@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T21:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 11:45 AM, Nick Lee wrote:\nThe Green Man is Vertumnus, the \"changing one.\" \"Vert\" also happens to\nmean \"green.\"\n\nI think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they\nboth are known to change shape, and that he is trying to influence\nSeverian to create a future in which his race evolves from humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? Are \nthey attested to do so in the story somewhere?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB6FB37.7080302@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T21:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB6D521.4060602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 12:42 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/6/2011 12:32 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:51 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "let me get this straight. mankind will evolve into heirogrammates (?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once, humankind evolved into \"the Hieros\" (high ones), who created the\ncreaturs that later became the hierogrammates (holy names) from human\nand unintelligent extraterrestrial DNA.\n\nThe Hieros vanished and the hierogrammates took over stewardship of\nour universe Briah by ascending to the white hole universe Yesod.\n\nThey in turn create hierodules (holy slaves) to take on various\nsubordinate tasks, and hierarchs (holy scribes) to record and\nsupervise at intermediate levels.\n\nThis happens on a galaxy-by-galaxy basis, and each time Briah ends and\nis created again in a big bang, some hierarchs may graduate to become\nhierogrammates.\n\nIt's possible that hierodules can be promoted, but most only live as\nlong as their job was intended to last so tough titty for them.\n\nLazy and forgetful posters abbreviate those created races as \"the\nhieros\" despite my many appeals not to confuse people while the\nperfectly good label \"Yesodis\" is available." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I beg forgetfulness. \"Yesodis\" is more than adequate, if I can remember it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of it after hearing about \"Iraqis\" this and \"Saudis\" that for \nyears on the news, who are of course as varied among themselves like any \nlarge group of people, perhaps that will be a helpful association." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB704BF.5090406@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T22:05:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB6D835.3060003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 12:55 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThen where did Blue go?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the question is more, if Green is Urth, where did Blue come \nfrom? Perhaps Blue is Verthandi, made over by the Hieros before their \ndeparture.\n\nI'm actually a bit encouraged by this \"Green is Urth\" assertion, it \nprevents the Yesodis from being liars about there being no intelligent \naliens in Briah, and supports my guilty-pleasure, \"Planet of the Apes\" \ntrajectory for the Whorl hypothesis. It also ties all of the ancient \nmyth-memes to the events of the story with in-continuity causality in \naddition to any thematic links which are contentious for some." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB709E5.7050307@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T22:27:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people = Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 3:04 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lazy and forgetful posters abbreviate those created races as \"the\nhieros\" despite my many appeals not to confuse people while the\nperfectly good label \"Yesodis\" is available." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So far as I can tell, while the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs live in\nYesod, the Hierodules don't, so I don't think that name is really\nsuitable for them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FB&O are hierodules and they come from Yesod. They also spend a great \ndeal of time in Briah. Inire claims relation to the same hierodules and \nhas devices that directly access a hierogrammate on demand, so despite \nhis deep cover as a human vizier on Urth, I believe he is also \nreasonably characterized as a Yesodi, and likely a hierarch judging by \nhis lifespan." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T23:01:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB709E5.7050307@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? Are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "they attested to do so in the story somewhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should have been clearer. It is Vertumnus who is known as a shapechanger,\nbeing the god of seasons and change. Inire-the-shapechanger is an old\nBorski theory. Certainly Inire must have some method of disguise to pass as\nhuman, even a short, monkey-faced one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB73AB5.60109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T01:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB704BF.5090406@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI think the question is more, if Green is Urth, where did Blue come \nfrom? Perhaps Blue is Verthandi, made over by the Hieros before their \ndeparture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don Dogget first pointed out the references between Edgar Rice \nBurroughs' \"John Carter of Mars\" series and the Short Sun books-- \nincluding the Rajan's dream traveling and the multi-limbed Martians. \nAdditionally, the references to Lan Wright's \"The Last Hope of the \nEarth\" (aka \"The Creeping Shroud\") are quite remarkable. Hyacinths, \nfloating islands, generation star ships, and (oh yeah) the colonization \nof Mars." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB7471F.4020802@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 5:01 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n\n When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? Are\n they attested to do so in the story somewhere?\n\n\nI should have been clearer. It is Vertumnus who is known as a\nshapechanger, being the god of seasons and change.\nInire-the-shapechanger is an old Borski theory. Certainly Inire must\nhave some method of disguise to pass as human, even a short,\nmonkey-faced one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pretending to be a bent, old man works, since most people don't want to \nsee more. This easily affords him the old shaman disguise, since the \ncovered face and the exposed physique is the complement of his Vizier \ndisguise. And being purpose-made to pose as a human, by beings who can \nmake human-appearing beings, eliminates a specific need to shapeshift." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320634219.62545.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB704BF.5090406@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 2:05 PM\nOn 11/6/2011 12:55 PM, David\nStockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then where did Blue go?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the question is more, if Green is Urth, where did\nBlue come from? Perhaps Blue is Verthandi, made over by the\nHieros before their departure.\n\nI'm actually a bit encouraged by this \"Green is Urth\"\nassertion, it prevents the Yesodis from being liars about\nthere being no intelligent aliens in Briah, and supports my\nguilty-pleasure, \"Planet of the Apes\" trajectory for the\nWhorl hypothesis. It also ties all of the ancient myth-memes\nto the events of the story with in-continuity causality in\naddition to any thematic links which are contentious for\nsome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another thing I wanted to comment on is the scene in Urth where Sev looks up and Apheta is peering at him from Green. I really need to take notes like I did for Short Sun for Urth of the New sun next time (I cross referenced every mention of tree, wind, chimney, etc for short sun back in 2001 or so) Still not happy with the explanation for wind in the chimney.\n\nI'm sure there's SOME cosmological hint there I simply have not been equipped to handle; I never paid enough attention to the hierogrammates and their tools." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:58:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320634219.62545.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPretending to be a bent, old man works, since most people don't want to\nsee more. This easily affords him the old shaman disguise, since the\ncovered face and the exposed physique is the complement of his Vizier\ndisguise. And being purpose-made to pose as a human, by beings who can\nmake human-appearing beings, eliminates a specific need to shapeshift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Considering what the other hieros look like, he would at least need a mask.\nVertumnus doesn't necessarily shapeshift, either. In the myth of Pomona,\nfor example, he wears a wig. I am reminded of Agilus's ribbons. I was\nthinking of Tzadkiel as the more obvious shapeshifting example." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB74DBE.3070403@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T03:17:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320634219.62545.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 8:50 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnother thing I wanted to comment on is the scene in Urth where Sev looks up and Apheta is peering at him from Green[sic].\n\nI'm sure there's SOME cosmological hint there I simply have not been equipped to handle; I never paid enough attention to the hierogrammates and their tools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From the end of Chapter XXII:\n\n\"The sphere was like a wall. At its center, just as I had seen it \npictured on board, was the ship.\nI have written that I sought to stop. It was difficult, and soon I could \nnot resist. It may be that the void held some attraction like that of a \nworld. Or perhaps it was only that the pressure of the wind on the air \nheld static around me was so strong that I was driven forward.\nOr perhaps the ship had some hold upon us both. If I dared, I would say \nthat my destiny drew me, yet Gunnie cannot have been drawn by the same \ndestiny, though perhaps her quite different fate drew her toward the \nsame place. For if it were merely the wind, or the insensate hunger of \nmatter for matter, why was Apheta not drawn with us?\nI will leave it to you to explain these things. Drawn I was, and Gunnie \ntoo I saw her flying through the void behind me, twisting and whirling \nas the universe twisted and whirled, saw her just as one leaf twirling \nin a spring storm might see another. Somewhere behind or before us, \nabove us or below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning, frantically \nspinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as a moon of the most \nbrilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie fluttered across it once or \ntwice before she was lost in the diamond-decked blackness. (And once it \nseemed to me and still seems when I call that frantic memory forth that \nI saw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"\n\nThis demonstrates that the Yesodis are able to open channels into Briah \nto faciliate sending and receiving massive objects like people as well \nas light, which facilitates spying, even without mirrors at at the \nimmediate terminus.\n\nThere's another moon-like apparition of Apheta in XLVIII, but Sev admits \nhe's drunk and sleepy, so it's not compelling." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T03:23:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB74DBE.3070403@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee: The Green Man is Vertumnus, the \"changing one.\" \"Vert\" also " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "happens to mean \"green.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they both\nare known to change shape, and that he is trying to influence Severian to\ncreate a future in which his race evolves from humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nA good call Nick. Vertumnus is another rustic Roman nature god joined to the\n\ncadre of Bacchus, Faunus, Fauna, Flora etc. who all seem at least tangentially \n\nreferenced in the Sun Series under the Dionysus umbrella.\n\n \n\nI still think that wiccan/pagan carved wooden figure called The Green Man is\n\nalso referenced, perhaps under the same umbrella since he is closely associated\n\nwith the Great God Pan. A certain carved wooden mask which appears in Long Sun\n\nhas been discussed here in regard to that...maybe last winter.\n\n \n\nI think your understanding of the Inire character is correct. We see various\n\nversions of....someone in the story. Some seem \"good\", some seem \"evil\". But\n\nworking together as hammer, anvil and tongs, they forge humanity or at least\n\ndrive it (via Severian) along the proper, necessary path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are they attested to do so in the story somewhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nSince the topic has been discussed at length before, I'll take that as a rhetorical\n\nquestion not really designed to elicit an answer or reflect a desire for knowledge.\n\n \n\nAs has been demonstrated in here before, if you don't see the old woman and/or don't\n\nespecially want to see her, no painstaking effort to show the lines which create\n\nher image will ever allow her to be seen. \n\n \n\nhttp://www.askix.com/avav/images/optical_illusions/woman.gif \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB750A4.2010507@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T03:29:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 9:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAs has been demonstrated in here before, if you don't see the old woman and/or don't\n\nespecially want to see her, no painstaking effort to show the lines which create\n\nher image will ever allow her to be seen.\n\n\n\nhttp://www.askix.com/avav/images/optical_illusions/woman.gif \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see both, but that does not convince me that both are intended to \nrepresent the same person, or that either person has a philia for fur \nstoles or feathers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320636876.86087.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T03:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB74DBE.3070403@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 7:17 PM\nOn 11/6/2011 8:50 PM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another thing I wanted to comment on is the scene in\nUrth where Sev looks up and Apheta is peering at him from\nGreen[sic].\n\nI'm sure there's SOME cosmological hint there I simply\nhave not been equipped to handle; I never paid enough\nattention to the hierogrammates and their tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the end of Chapter XXII:\n\n\"The sphere was like a wall. At its center, just as I had\nseen it pictured on board, was the ship.\nI have written that I sought to stop. It was difficult, and\nsoon I could not resist. It may be that the void held some\nattraction like that of a world. Or perhaps it was only that\nthe pressure of the wind on the air held static around me\nwas so strong that I was driven forward.\nOr perhaps the ship had some hold upon us both. If I dared,\nI would say that my destiny drew me, yet Gunnie cannot have\nbeen drawn by the same destiny, though perhaps her quite\ndifferent fate drew her toward the same place. For if it\nwere merely the wind, or the insensate hunger of matter for\nmatter, why was Apheta not drawn with us?\nI will leave it to you to explain these things. Drawn I\nwas, and Gunnie too I saw her flying through the void behind\nme, twisting and whirling as the universe twisted and\nwhirled, saw her just as one leaf twirling in a spring storm\nmight see another. Somewhere behind or before us, above us\nor below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning,\nfrantically spinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as\na moon of the most brilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie\nfluttered across it once or twice before she was lost in the\ndiamond-decked blackness. (And once it seemed to me and\nstill seems when I call that frantic memory forth that I\nsaw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"\n\nThis demonstrates that the Yesodis are able to open\nchannels into Briah to faciliate sending and receiving\nmassive objects like people as well as light, which\nfacilitates spying, even without mirrors at at the immediate\nterminus.\n\nThere's another moon-like apparition of Apheta in XLVIII,\nbut Sev admits he's drunk and sleepy, so it's not\ncompelling.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "interesting, but the double conglomeration of the moon and apheta must surely mean something. Thanks for adding the [sic] there, I surely meant Lune, not Green. (The rajan and his droogs make a similar mistake in their trip to Urth, as far as I remember.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB7CB7B.7000100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-07T12:13:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB74DBE.3070403@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 10:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/6/2011 8:50 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another thing I wanted to comment on is the scene in Urth where Sev \nlooks up and Apheta is peering at him from Green[sic].\n\nI'm sure there's SOME cosmological hint there I simply have not been \nequipped to handle; I never paid enough attention to the \nhierogrammates and their tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the end of Chapter XXII:\n\n\"The sphere was like a wall. At its center, just as I had seen it \npictured on board, was the ship.\nI have written that I sought to stop. It was difficult, and soon I \ncould not resist. It may be that the void held some attraction like \nthat of a world. Or perhaps it was only that the pressure of the wind \non the air held static around me was so strong that I was driven forward.\nOr perhaps the ship had some hold upon us both. If I dared, I would \nsay that my destiny drew me, yet Gunnie cannot have been drawn by the \nsame destiny, though perhaps her quite different fate drew her toward \nthe same place. For if it were merely the wind, or the insensate \nhunger of matter for matter, why was Apheta not drawn with us?\nI will leave it to you to explain these things. Drawn I was, and \nGunnie too I saw her flying through the void behind me, twisting and \nwhirling as the universe twisted and whirled, saw her just as one leaf \ntwirling in a spring storm might see another. Somewhere behind or \nbefore us, above us or below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning, \nfrantically spinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as a moon of \nthe most brilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie fluttered across it \nonce or twice before she was lost in the diamond-decked blackness. \n(And once it seemed to me and still seems when I call that frantic \nmemory forth that I saw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"\n\nThis demonstrates that the Yesodis are able to open channels into \nBriah to faciliate sending and receiving massive objects like people \nas well as light, which facilitates spying, even without mirrors at at \nthe immediate terminus.\n\nThere's another moon-like apparition of Apheta in XLVIII, but Sev \nadmits he's drunk and sleepy, so it's not compelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would a white Lune be Green?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E8E01D2AB3B48D089C77B43A6F126B3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T13:04:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320636876.86087.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSomewhere behind or before us, above us\nor below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning,\nfrantically spinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as\na moon of the most brilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie\nfluttered across it once or twice before she was lost in the\ndiamond-decked blackness. (And once it seemed to me and\nstill seems when I call that frantic memory forth that I\nsaw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "interesting, but the double conglomeration of the moon and apheta \nmust surely mean something. Thanks for adding the [sic] there, I \nsurely meant Lune, not Green. (The rajan and his droogs make a \nsimilar mistake in their trip to Urth, as far as I remember.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely Severian is clearly indicating that it is NOT Lune? It looks like it, but it’s a different colour. (I don’t think it’s a moon at all.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FFFAABBC6934D72A7898581CA338A64@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T13:23:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB7471F.4020802@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 11/6/2011 5:01 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\n\nRestored for context:\n[Nick Lee wrote:]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they\nboth are known to change shape, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Jeff Wilson wrote:]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? Are\n they attested to do so in the story somewhere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should have been clearer. It is Vertumnus who is known as a\nshapechanger, being the god of seasons and change.\nInire-the-shapechanger is an old Borski theory. Certainly Inire must\nhave some method of disguise to pass as human, even a short,\nmonkey-faced one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pretending to be a bent, old man works, since most people don't want to \nsee more. This easily affords him the old shaman disguise, since the \ncovered face and the exposed physique is the complement of his Vizier \ndisguise. And being purpose-made to pose as a human, by beings who can \nmake human-appearing beings, eliminates a specific need to shapeshift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. \n\nAs for the Green Man, if he has shape changing abilities they are fairly limited, as reading the section in which Severian first encounters him will make obvious.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<692EFBFC17E744D490BDA6EF7CBA2E4B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T13:24:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB7471F.4020802@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nRestored for context:\n[Nick Lee wrote:]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think The Green Man may actually be Inire, which makes sense as they\nboth are known to change shape, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Jeff Wilson wrote:]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When do the Green Man or Inire display their shape-changing ability? Are\nthey attested to do so in the story somewhere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should have been clearer. It is Vertumnus who is known as a\nshapechanger, being the god of seasons and change.\nInire-the-shapechanger is an old Borski theory. Certainly Inire must\nhave some method of disguise to pass as human, even a short,\nmonkey-faced one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pretending to be a bent, old man works, since most people don't want to \nsee more. This easily affords him the old shaman disguise, since the \ncovered face and the exposed physique is the complement of his Vizier \ndisguise. And being purpose-made to pose as a human, by beings who can \nmake human-appearing beings, eliminates a specific need to shapeshift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. \n\nAs for the Green Man, if he has shape changing abilities they are fairly limited, as reading the section in which Severian first encounters him will make obvious.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320679330.6381.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T15:22:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<7E8E01D2AB3B48D089C77B43A6F126B3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 5:04 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSomewhere behind or before us, above us\nor below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning,\nfrantically spinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as\na moon of the most brilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie\nfluttered across it once or twice before she was lost in the\ndiamond-decked blackness. (And once it seemed to me and\nstill seems when I call that frantic memory forth that I\nsaw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "interesting, but the double conglomeration of the moon and apheta \nmust surely mean something. Thanks for adding the [sic] there, I \nsurely meant Lune, not Green. (The rajan and his droogs make a \nsimilar mistake in their trip to Urth, as far as I remember.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely Severian is clearly indicating that it is NOT Lune??? It looks like it, but it’s a different colour. (I don’t think it’s a moon at all.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\nI fancied it was old school original white moon (if something as absurd as a white moon around Urth could be imagined!) Some time fluctuation once again. At the time of Apu-punchau the moon should be white, assuredly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320679382.16365.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T15:23:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB7CB7B.7000100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nWhy would a white Lune be Green?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people= Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320679382.16365.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.askix.com/avav/images/optical_illusions/woman.gif " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I see both (young woman and old woman), but that does not convince me \nthat both are intended to represent the same person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is not quite germaine to the conversation, at least from my point of view. There \nis one image amd two faces. But only one is visible at a time and which one you get depends \non your viewing angle or perspective.\n \nThis, I think, is what Wolfe is trying to say about epithets of gods. Are Zeus and\nJupiter and Jove \"the same person\"?\n \nI don't think you can answer that in a comprehensible way, as you could answer it for\nhuman beings. Likewise for Dionysus-Pan-Bacchus-Faunus. And likewise for The Outsider-\nPas-Silver Silk-Silent Silk-Severian etc. \n \nI think the Janus/Quadrafons is there to additionally point the concept out to us: \nmultiple faces on one god, like multiple names, is just our (necessarily) human attempt to \nexpress what we can't quite consciously grasp: the simultaneous individuality yet unity of \ncertain non-human beings. \n \n(like \"Father Inire\" though that is merely one of his names)\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B02CEB3889A48E1A859BD5797935FE6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320679330.6381.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \nGerry Quinn wrote: " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Surely Severian is clearly indicating that it is NOT Lune? It looks like it, but it’s a different colour. (I don’t think it’s a moon at all.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I fancied it was old school original white moon (if something as absurd as a \nwhite moon around Urth could be imagined!) Some time fluctuation once \nagain. At the time of Apu-punchau the moon should be white, assuredly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " But hardly ?the most brilliant white?! \n\n I don’t get why you think it’s a moon at all, as distinct from a portal out of Yesod. [Severian later ruminates on whether the White Fountain may be a similar portal, or even the same one.]\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n \n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB80533.6090203@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<3B02CEB3889A48E1A859BD5797935FE6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, the green moon of Urth was a result of some \"geo-engineering\" \n(or, rather,\nluna-forming) in the period of maximal technological development of \nhumanity.\nAn atmosphere was created, the trees planted, and then all connection \nwas lost.\n\nEven our Moon,\ngiven an atmosphere once, will hold it for several million years \n(maybe tens or hundreds).\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \n*> Gerry Quinn *wrote:\n\n Surely Severian is clearly indicating that it is NOT Lune? It\n looks like it, but it’s a different colour. (I don’t think it’s a\n moon at all.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I fancied it was old school original white moon (if something as \nabsurd as a\nwhite moon around Urth could be imagined!) Some time fluctuation once\nagain. At the time of Apu-punchau the moon should be white, assuredly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nBut hardly ?the most brilliant white?! \n \nI don’t get why you think it’s a moon at all, as distinct from a \nportal out of Yesod. [Severian later ruminates on whether the White \nFountain may be a similar portal, or even the same one.]\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n \n \n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:29:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB80533.6090203@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Why would a white Lune be Green?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. But it might be meant to represent our moon.\nI consider that as part of the evidence that Yesod is\nour universe though overall I don't consider that to be a\nvery firm conclusion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As for the Green Man, if he has shape changing\nabilities they are fairly limited, as reading the section in\nwhich Severian first encounters him will make obvious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have trouble believing that a being capable of transporting\nhis body through space and time cannot, in the process, transport\nhis ankle through a metal shackle.\n\nI think the Green Man episode is simply another act in the play\nwhich is being performed in BotNS for Severian's benefit. That is\npart of the reason Palaemon and Rudesind are shown forgetting their\nlines, and partly why we are shown a play in which Baldanders is\nable to free himself from his shackles at any time.\n\nIt's tough to remember all your lines! (especially if you have to\nplay so many parts, yourself) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB80825.9000900@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:32:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people= Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2011 10:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.askix.com/avav/images/optical_illusions/woman.gif" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I see both (young woman and old woman), but that does not convince me\nthat both are intended to represent the same person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is not quite germaine to the conversation, at least from my point of view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was just asking Nick Lee about his opinion, not taking up once again \nyours that we've discussed exhaustively." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320683567.65328.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:32:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB80825.9000900@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 8:07 AM\nBut hardly “the most brilliant white?!” " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t get why you think it’s a moon at all, as distinct from a portal >out of Yesod. [Severian later ruminates on whether the White Fountain >may be a similar portal, or even the same one.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I feel like we've inexplicably switched places! Doesn't sev say it's a moon in that quote (and isn't that your normal preferred method of definitive narrational statement)? but yes, clearly a portal from yesod, too. the moon is a balloon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:35:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320683567.65328.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: To me, the green moon of Urth was a result of some \"geo-engineering\" \n(or, rather, luna-forming) in the period of maximal technological development of \nhumanity. An atmosphere was created, the trees planted, and then all connection was lost.\nEven our Moon, given an atmosphere once, will hold it for several million years \n(maybe tens or hundreds)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that is worth mentioning. The mechanics of that \"luna-forming\"process generated a \nlong and spirited discussion in here, a while back. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB80C31.9080003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:49:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320679382.16365.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (07-11-2011 15:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would a white Lune be Green?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It never would be, I meant to write Lune (it's just that it's green, usually)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's made of green cheese." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB80C87.7050101@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:51:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2011 10:29 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Why would a white Lune be Green?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dunno. But it might be meant to represent our moon.\nI consider that as part of the evidence that Yesod is\nour universe though overall I don't consider that to be a\nvery firm conclusion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As for the Green Man, if he has shape changing\nabilities they are fairly limited, as reading the section in\nwhich Severian first encounters him will make obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have trouble believing that a being capable of transporting\nhis body through space and time cannot, in the process, transport\nhis ankle through a metal shackle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they stop Severian, why not the Green Man?\n\n*everything* in the books that is present in Urth's physical plane \nbefore or after entering higher dimensions and/or transcending time is \nshown moving physically as part of the process. The Green Man runs back \ninto his future as Aquastor Malrubius' ship approaches from a similar \ndistance in that same un-Urthly direction. Inire's mirrors open portals \nbut people and cats have to step or be flung through. Juturna extends \nher arms in these directions, just as the Brook Magregot's water flows \nthrough a channel, and Sev walks beside the channel. FB&O's saucer lifts \nas it departs. And of course, The Ship infamously sails past galaxies as \nit retreats in time.\n\nOh, and Apheta's portal is set up to MAKE people move forward so they \ncannot stop from going through. Why all this is, only Wolfe knows; \nperhaps he's a big Zelazny fan." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB80DE3.50700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:57:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB80C87.7050101@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, I'm worried for Master Ash. What happened to him?\n(I'm also a bit worried for Randy Carter's mule.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T16:58:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320683567.65328.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t get why you think it’s a moon at all, as distinct from a portal \nout of Yesod. [Severian later ruminates on whether the White Fountain \nmay be a similar portal, or even the same one.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, I feel like we've inexplicably switched places! Doesn't sev say \nit's a moon in that quote (and isn't that your normal preferred method \nof definitive narrational statement)? but yes, clearly a portal from yesod,\n too. the moon is a balloon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Somewhere behind or before us, above us\nor below us, was a wide circle of light, spinning,\nfrantically spinning, a thing like Lune, if such a thing as\na moon of the most brilliant white can be imagined. Gunnie\nfluttered across it once or twice before she was lost in the\ndiamond-decked blackness. (And once it seemed to me and\nstill seems when I call that frantic memory forth that I\nsaw Apheta's face as she leaned from that moon.) \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t know where you get the idea about “my preferred method of definitive narrational statement”. I’ve repeatedly pointed out that Wolfe’s characters — just like real people - often use metaphor which should *not* be taken literally. And here he starts with plain old simile, even if he finishes up with metonymy or metalepsis or whatever. Same difference. He’s not saying it’s a moon. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<34D121B54C1A4CE1A6D35815816BACA2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T17:17:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the Green Man, if he has shape changing\nabilities they are fairly limited, as reading the section in\nwhich Severian first encounters him will make obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have trouble believing that a being capable of transporting\nhis body through space and time cannot, in the process, transport\nhis ankle through a metal shackle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s because you don’t pay attention to the text. His mode of time travel is to walk or run through the Corridors of Time. The shackle binds him in time no less than in space. \n\nIf you want an analogy, consider a jet liner with a wall built around it at a distance of 50 yards or so. It can fly, but nevertheless it is completely trapped by a low wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the Green Man episode is simply another act in the play\nwhich is being performed in BotNS for Severian's benefit. That is\npart of the reason Palaemon and Rudesind are shown forgetting their\nlines, and partly why we are shown a play in which Baldanders is\nable to free himself from his shackles at any time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. He must be a shapechanger because... well, because you want him to be, so everything we are told about him must be just a joke on the reader.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T17:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<34D121B54C1A4CE1A6D35815816BACA2@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If they (shackles) stop Severian, why not the Green Man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm guessing you mean how do Typhon's soldiers shackle Severian if he\ncould time-space travel out. The obvious answer would seem to be that\nsuch travel is not consciously available to Severian at that time, like\nhis healing, earlier in the story. Perhaps we can agree that time travel\nis under conscious control by the Green Man at the time of his \"capture\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*everything* in the books that is present in Urth's physical plane \nbefore or after entering higher dimensions and/or transcending time is \nshown moving physically as part of the process. The Green Man runs back \ninto his future..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n*everything* in the books is told to us by Severian, a guy with a medieval\nperspective. I take the description of muscular movement as a means of \nachieving space-time as metaphor. How are actin and myacin fibers supposed\nto burn sugar/ATP and achieve super-light speed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Look, I'm worried for Master Ash. What happened to him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeverian: \"I'm lonely, Master Ash..You were lonely also. Who was the woman you \ncalled Vine? Perhaps I only imagined his voice. 'The first woman'\n\"Meschiane?\" Yes, I know her and she is very lovely...\"\n \nOf course, in a gnostic universe, the first woman is not Meschane/Eve but Jahi/\nLilith, the vampiress. So Ash (tree) went to back in time to Blue and became \nThe Neighbors and hooked up with Vine/the Inhumi. ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That’s because you don’t pay attention to the text...Right. He must \nbe a shapechanger because... well, because you want him to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nKeep your personal comments about me to yourself, butthole.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T18:14:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\n\nThat’s because you don’t pay attention to the text. His mode of time\ntravel is to walk or run through the Corridors of Time. The shackle\nbinds him in time no less than in space. If you want an analogy,\nconsider a jet liner with a wall built around it at a distance of 50\nyards or so. It can fly, but nevertheless it is completely trapped by\na low wall.\n\nThe text has no a priori meaning, Gerry. It only means what we think\nit means. In any case, you've already been given an example of a\ncharacter who can remove his shackles whenever he wishes. Or do you\nthink those scenes are to be taken at face value, literally, but by\nyour own definition of what is literal?\n\nAnd how do you know what the green man's mode of transportation is?\nCan you explain it scientifically? Is he capable of running faster\nthan the speed of light? That would make him go backwards in time.\nWhat is his true mechanism of travel? If you can't explain that, then\nI don't think your position is tenable.\n\nAs it stands, we are not privy to the scene of his \"capture.\" Your\nnotion that the green man is honest is as much conjecture as anyone\nelse's version of events.\n\nWhat do the hierodules have to say about the green man and his ability\nto travel through time?\n\nUrth, p.361:\n\n\"But as for returning you to your own time, we cannot help you. Your\ngreen man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least he had more energy\nat his disposal.\"\n\nAnd on that same page:\n\n\"You're a materialist, like all ignorant people, but your materialism\ndoesn't make materialism true.\"\n\n Right. He must be a shapechanger because... well, because you want him to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be, so everything we are told about him must be just a joke on the reader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who *wants* him to be a shapechanger? I'm just exploring the notion\nand seeing where it leads me.\n\nRemember the myth of Proteus? He could change shape and *foretell the\nfuture*. He was of the sea, as algae is, and so would, like the\nundines, be sea-green in appearance. According to Virgil, he is\n\"sea-green\" (Geogrics 4.388).\n\n\nUrth, p.56:\n\n\"The undine's hair had been green, not white; perhaps that had done\nmost of all. I should have realized that such a true and vivid green\nis not found in men or beasts with hair or fur, and when ti seems to\noccur is the effect of algae, like that in the blood of the green man\nat Saltus. A rope left hanging in a pond will soon enough be green;\nwhat a fool I had been.\"\n\nThat monologue is also about a case where Severian was deceived.\n\nProteus's name means \"first\" likes Protogonos, \"first-born,\" another\nname for Phanes/Dionysus. \"Saltus\" begins with \"salt\" which conjures\nthe sea. In latin it means \"jump, flow, copulate, spring.\" This has\nconnotations of both water and the White Fountain, as well as sex,\nwhich is connected to Phanes/Eros.\n\nPerhaps we should also look at *The Wizard Knight*, at Garsecg and Setr.\n\nAt the very least, you must admit the connections are interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB824FE.6050605@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-07T18:35:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) translator - of other books?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In BoTNS the existence of a translator is assumed (who can choose some \nnotions of\nour time to translate difficult concepts of Severian's Urth).\n\nWhat about other books of the Sun cycle? Did GW abandon this idea? Or it \nis supposed\nthat they are also translated? It is supposed that the translator got \nthe manuscript\nof BoTNS thrown by Severian. But how other manuscripts came to us?\n\nThe importance of this question is. e.g., in the meaning of the fragments\nfrom the books of our time in Chrasmologic Writings. If they are\n\"adapted translations\", OK. But they are in the book written by Rajan,\nor even Horn's children. And the use of quotations from Homer,\nSantillana, Sapho - is important!\n\nSergei" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB826C0.2050706@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T18:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) translator - of other books?", "in_reply_to": "<4EB824FE.6050605@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (07-11-2011 18:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In BoTNS the existence of a translator is assumed (who can choose some\nnotions of\nour time to translate difficult concepts of Severian's Urth).\n\nWhat about other books of the Sun cycle? Did GW abandon this idea? Or it is\nsupposed\nthat they are also translated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always wonder about that whenever the languages spoken aboard the Whorl \nbecome important in relation to some point.\n\nAnd the notes in the Long and Short Sun books are terse for a reason. What \ndoes the absence of editorial prose there mean? I think it means a lot, but \nI have no idea what." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is supposed that the translator got the\nmanuscript\nof BoTNS thrown by Severian. But how other manuscripts came to us?\n\nThe importance of this question is. e.g., in the meaning of the fragments\nfrom the books of our time in Chrasmologic Writings. If they are\n\"adapted translations\", OK. But they are in the book written by Rajan,\nor even Horn's children. And the use of quotations from Homer,\nSantillana, Sapho - is important!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, so are Robert and Marie in the Botanical Gardens." } ] }, { "message_id": "<61B1852976FD425FBC1045269B7016C6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T18:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That’s because you don’t pay attention to the text. His mode of time\ntravel is to walk or run through the Corridors of Time. The shackle \nbinds\n > him in time no less than in space.\nIf you want an analogy, consider a\n > jet liner with a wall built around it at a distance of 50 yards or so. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It\n > can fly, but nevertheless it is completely trapped by a low wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text has no a priori meaning, Gerry. It only means what we think it \nmeans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incorrect. It means what readers who have properly read it think it means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, you've already been given an example of a character who\n can remove his shackles whenever he wishes. Or do you think those scenes\n are to be taken at face value, literally, but by your own definition of \nwhat is literal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What absurdity is this? Much later we are shown a character in a play who \nbreaks his fake shackles when the script calls for it - what does that have \nto do with the Green Man? We are also shown many more characters who do not \nbreak their shackles. Do they count?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And how do you know what the green man's mode of transportation is? Can\n you explain it scientifically? Is he capable of running faster than the \nspeed of\nlight? That would make him go backwards in time. What is his true \nmechanism\n of travel? If you can't explain that, then I don't think your position is \ntenable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He clearly does not run faster than light (how could Severian have seen him \nif he did?). Time travel probably does not exist in reality, and if it does \nneither I nor Gene Wolfe can explain the manner in which it may be achieved. \nBut we are reading a work of SF in which, as is often the case, time travel \nand other impossible things happen, and we understand the rules by which \nthey happen by what we are told in the book. In the book, the Green Man \nruns through the Corridors of Time, as Severian himself does later (in the \ntext anyway)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As it stands, we are not privy to the scene of his \"capture.\" Your notion \nthat\nthe green man is honest is as much conjecture as anyone else's version of \nevents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know he was captured, and that he is chained, apparently against his \nwill. Of course, you may argue that the village of Saltus are engaged in \nsome bizarre conspiracy with a shapechanger (no reason to believe he is from \nthe future at this point, since you have essentially decided to completely \nignore everything we are told about the storyline). And if his purpose is \nto encourage Severian to bring the New Sun, he doesn't need to be a \nshapechanger anyway any more than he needs to be a time traveller, he just \nneeds to be a guy that's convincingly painted green. So what is the point \nof such a conspiracy theory that basically ignores the logic of characters \nand storylines that are meant to relate to them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do the hierodules have to say about the green man and his ability to\ntravel through time? Urth, p.361: \"But as for returning you to your own \ntime,\n we cannot help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at\n least he had more energy at his disposal.\" And on that same page:\"You're\n a materialist, like all ignorant people, but your materialism doesn't \nmake\nmaterialism true.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems like they say about zilch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right. He must be a shapechanger because... well, because you want him \nto be,\n so everything we are told about him must be just a joke on the reader." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who wants him to be a shapechanger? I'm just exploring the notion and\nseeing where it leads me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To a chain of random associations, apparently.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1193459642.5967.1320694497851.JavaMail.seven@ap1.p0.sjc.7sys.net>", "from": { "name": "palaeologos at gmail.com", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T19:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<61B1852976FD425FBC1045269B7016C6@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "< -- The message is truncated. -- >\n\n\nSent with Verizon Mobile Email\n\n\n---Original Message---" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: 11/7/2011 9:46 am\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nJeff Wilson: If they (shackles) stop Severian, why not the Green Man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm guessing you mean how do Typhon's soldiers shackle Severian if he\ncould time-space travel out. The obvious answer would seem to be that\nsuch travel is not consciously available to Severian at that time, like\nhis healing, earlier in the story. Perhaps we can agree that time travel\nis under conscious control by the Green Man at the time of his \"capture\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*everything* in the books that is present in Urth's physical plane " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320698691.53851.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T20:44:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<61B1852976FD425FBC1045269B7016C6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \n? It means what readers who have properly\nread it think it means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you on this, Gerry. \n\n The problem is metonymic associations are impossible to prove except through repetition ad nauseum, and can still can be denied. Thus the similarities between Nessus and the city of the inhumi, the presence of a mechanism for transit to Green in the narrator's thoughts, and Gene's card lead me to believe I have properly read a text, while your equally valid (to you) reading may stress the narrator's claim to see the red sun in the sky and that they are necessarily two distinct places since the solar systems are obviously not similar in any way shape or form.\n\nIs it not possible that one author may intend dream sequences to be taken literally and another not? Yes, it is exceedingly possible, and thus our disagreement on Kypris/Mother/Hy/Chenille/ and your insistence that the actual identity of the two sets of parents was inconsquential in the long run, when I think they can be mapped onto the story through the dreams and other comments quite clearly. If the author intended for those dreams to only be psychologically realistic, I AM misreading the text. If he intended them to be literally true SOMEHOW, then you are by ignoring statements like those that are simple linking verb predicate nominative constructs with no room for interpretation except are they intended to be true or not. That's all there is to it.\n\nThis is why multiple readings are understandable, though not all can be equally correct. We are each going to have our interpretation, some will be closer to the authorial intent than others. Hamlet's father may have been a ghost, but he wasn't an alien. The same assertions can't be made with Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB8467D.3060905@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T20:58:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) translator - of other books?", "in_reply_to": "<4EB824FE.6050605@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2011 12:35 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nIn BoTNS the existence of a translator is assumed (who can choose some\nnotions of\nour time to translate difficult concepts of Severian's Urth).\n\nWhat about other books of the Sun cycle? Did GW abandon this idea? Or it\nis supposed\nthat they are also translated? It is supposed that the translator got\nthe manuscript\nof BoTNS thrown by Severian. But how other manuscripts came to us?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that the original intent was for the original ms left behind \nto have come backward through time-bending architectures along with \nother artifacts into G.W.'s hands; doubtless they are the buildings he \nmentions photographing." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T21:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people = Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320698691.53851.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nick Lee wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering what the other hieros look like, he [Inire} would at least need a mask." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in the scenes where we most definitely see him he wears one, or a\nhood. By the other hieros I take it you mean B and F (who are indeed\nhinted to be of the same species)? It seems likely that this species\ncannot shapeshift, since they are regularly masked.\n\nThe Cumaean, by contrast, presumably belongs to another species, since\nshe does shapeshift. (I think it's actually pointed out somewhere that\n'hierodule' denotes a function rather than a race.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T21:23:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people = Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFB&O are hierodules and they come from Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we told this? In any case, whatever is true of them, I don't think\nit can be true of all hierodules, In the appendix to COTA we are told\nof a trade in arms with the hierodules - the same hierodules whom\nInire has just been referring to as 'my cousins' - and it does not\nseem likely that these arms are made in Yesod.\n\n\nThey also spend a great" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "deal of time in Briah. Inire claims relation to the same hierodules and\nhas devices that directly access a hierogrammate on demand," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean the book? I'm not sure if we know it can access a\nhierogrammate on demand - Severian sees one when he opens it, but that\nmay be because of his specific situation. In any case it looks as if\nthe hierogrammates normally contact the Autarchs through aquastors,\nwhich is a bit odd if Inire is directly in touch with them.\n\n\n so despite" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his deep cover as a human vizier on Urth, I believe he is also\nreasonably characterized as a Yesodi, and likely a hierarch judging by\nhis lifespan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah - interesting. I would take him to belong to the same species as B\nand F, given Severian's remark about his life being prolonged beyond\nthe short lifespan of his race (and this can't be because he thinks\nall hierodules are of the same race - it's actually mentioned\nsomewhere that they aren't). So I don't think he can be a hierarch if\nthey are a dsitinct species, the literal children of the\nhierogrammates. Now, I have wondered if they are in fact adopted\nchildren of the hierogrammates - since if they were their biological\nchildren you might expect them them to inherfit their parents' powers\n- and then certainly Inire could be one." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T22:15:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To a chain of random associations, apparently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe.\n\nYou remind me of those fundamentalists who read their sacred text,\narrive at one interpretation of it, and then call other\ninterpretations heretical.\n\nTo be fair, I've shared many of your frustrations with Wolfe\ninterpretation. I've thrown my copies of Borski's books across the\nroom many times. I still think Marc's ideas about Blue and Green are\nunpersuasive.\n\nAt some point I decided that I did not know what Wolfe's stories\nmeant. I decided it was all right to entertain notions that might seem\nfar fetched to see if anything substantive could be made of them.\n\nYou seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that\nis the case, I don't know why you bother with this list.\n\nIf my idea about the green man does not pan out, then so be it. All I\nwill have lost is time, but I will have spent it reading material I\nenjoy and exercising my thought processes. That's all literary\ninterpretation is about, anyway. It's not empirical.\n\nYou'd probably hate the paper I wrote about *Pandora by Holly\nHollander*. I made some pretty outlandish \"random connections\" in that\none. It was still fun, though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320704988.18903.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T22:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Nick Lee \nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"urth\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 2:15 PM\n\n\n\nTo a chain of random associations, apparently.Maybe.You remind me of those fundamentalists who read their sacred text, arrive at one interpretation of it, and then call other interpretations heretical.To be fair, I've shared many of your frustrations with Wolfe interpretation. I've thrown my copies of Borski's books across the room many times. I still think Marc's ideas about Blue and Green are unpersuasive.At some point I decided that I did not know what Wolfe's stories meant. I decided it was all right to entertain notions that might seem far fetched to see if anything substantive could be made of them.You seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that is the case, I don't know why you bother with this list.If my idea about the green man does not pan out, then so be it. All I will have lost is time, but I will have spent it reading material I enjoy and exercising my thought processes. That's all literary interpretation is about,\n anyway. It's not empirical.You'd probably hate the paper I wrote about Pandora by Holly Hollander. I made some pretty outlandish \"random connections\" in that one. It was still fun, though." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T22:31:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320704988.18903.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's something else. I assume Wolfe has read Ovid. If we look at the\nMetamorphesis, we see several characters that Wolfe, or our \"translator,\"\nhas appropriated:\n\nTyphon, the Sybil of Cumean, Aeneas, Scylla, Bacchus, Hyacinth, etc.\n\nHe doesn't mention Aeneas or Bacchus by name but makes direct reference to\nthem. I think he makes the same reference to Proteus/Vertumnus in this way.\nYou just have to have read your Ovid to catch it the reference in the green\nman.\n\nI'll admit that I don't know what that means beyond the reference; maybe\nthe green man is as simple a character as he appears at first glance." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T23:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would be interested in reading your paper, I've always intended to\nre-read Pandora with a criticial eye but never had the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No problem, Marc. I cited you in the paper, after all. Technically,\nyou've appeared in print:\n\nhttp://www.nicholasleegoodman.com/pdf/holly%20hollander.pdf\n\nIt's been a while so I skimmed it and didn't notice too many proofing\nerrors, though I probably need to do some more work on it. I've been\nmeaning to submit it for publication but have not had an abundance of\ntime.\n\nIf nothing else, I think my reading of the book makes it more interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB88B0B.70804@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T01:51:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2011 11:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If they (shackles) stop Severian, why not the Green Man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm guessing you mean how do Typhon's soldiers shackle Severian if he\ncould time-space travel out. The obvious answer would seem to be that\nsuch travel is not consciously available to Severian at that time, like\nhis healing, earlier in the story. Perhaps we can agree that time travel\nis under conscious control by the Green Man at the time of his \"capture\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*everything* in the books that is present in Urth's physical plane\nbefore or after entering higher dimensions and/or transcending time is\nshown moving physically as part of the process. The Green Man runs back\ninto his future..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*everything* in the books is told to us by Severian, a guy with a medieval\nperspective. I take the description of muscular movement as a means of\nachieving space-time as metaphor. How are actin and myacin fibers supposed\nto burn sugar/ATP and achieve super-light speed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The movement is no more metaphorical or supersonic than that required to \nascend a staircase to board a plane or a descend one to enter a subway. \nIt seems very likely to me that the Corridors of Time are commonplace on \nUrth; some are bound to architecture that anyone can use, like the \nBotanic Gardens or Ash's house, while others are navigable by those few \nwho can see them or at least envision them. In either case, a modest \neffort allows a modest rate of travel, while spanning creation on the \nscale of days or moments requires very powerful devices like The Ship or \nInire's mirrors." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB8989B.5000405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T02:48:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320704988.18903.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (07-11-2011 22:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's like a sick feeling of familiarity but for sure the ancient city of the\ninhumi seems to map pretty well to Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you've said this a number of times. But just what makes Nessus similar \nto the City of the Inhumi?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB89934.6090408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T02:51:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nick Lee wrote (07-11-2011 22:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's something else. I assume Wolfe has read Ovid. If we look at the\nMetamorphesis, we see several characters that Wolfe, or our \"translator,\"\nhas appropriated:\n\nTyphon, the Sybil of Cumean, Aeneas, Scylla, Bacchus, Hyacinth, etc.\n\nHe doesn't mention Aeneas or Bacchus by name but makes direct reference to\nthem. I think he makes the same reference to Proteus/Vertumnus in this way.\nYou just have to have read your Ovid to catch it the reference in the green man.\n\nI'll admit that I don't know what that means beyond the reference; maybe the\ngreen man is as simple a character as he appears at first glance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than once Wolfe has professed to collect ideas and names to use in his \nwork, with no necessary deep connection to their previous meanings.\n(In fact, much of his work is doing new things with old stuff; the fact is \nthat he doesn't invent his materials, it's the use that is novel.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T03:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB89934.6090408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: \nThe movement is no more metaphorical or supersonic than that required to \nascend a staircase to board a plane or a descend one to enter a subway. \nIt seems very likely to me that the Corridors of Time are commonplace on \nUrth; some are bound to architecture that anyone can use, like the \nBotanic Gardens or Ash's house, while others are navigable by those few \nwho can see them or at least envision them. In either case, a modest \neffort allows a modest rate of travel, while spanning creation on the \nscale of days or moments requires very powerful devices like The Ship or \nInire's mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think that is very well argued Jeff. I see no reason you should consider\n\nthe possibility that the Green Man is anything other than what he seems.\n\n \n\nThe whole idea of Father Inire appearing in numerous guises is essentially\n\na holistic one anyway. Like the old woman in the optical illusion you either\n\nsee it as a whole or don't see it at all. You can't get it through incrementally\n\nadding small pieces of the picture with this sort of debating.\n\n \n\nIn the case of the Green Man, he shares with all the other possible Inire\n\nappearances, including the 3 boatmen, Fechin, Dr. Talos and Hethor, a creepy and \n\nless than honest nature. There are simply holes and weirdnesses in all their \n\nstories that make them not quite right. It isn't that he/they are \"evil\". Even \n\nHethor isn't all that evil if you accept the fact of Severian's immortality. \n\nBut he ain't no angel either. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320723777.368.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T03:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB8989B.5000405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 6:48 PM\nMarc Aramini wrote (07-11-2011\n22:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's like a sick feeling of familiarity but for sure\nthe ancient city of the\ninhumi seems to map pretty well to Nessus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you've said this a number of times. But just what\nmakes Nessus similar to the City of the Inhumi?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really?\n\nI'm just going to use direct quotes.\n\n\"This was a tower indeed, its nose high as the tops of the tallest trees and its sleek lines radiating a strength it no longer posessed. I can see it now, that slightly canted tower gleaming dully in the reddish ligh of the stifling afternoon. Like a rotting corpse, it showed ribs wehre some sideplates had been taken. How we shouted in our delight, thinking it would save us!\"\n[tower on Green to save them, its a ship like the Matachin tower]\n\n\n\"There is a city somewhat like this on Green, but we are not on Green; these houses would be the towers of the Neighbor lords there. ... I've been thinking about it, and about the City of the Inhumi on Green. Those were ruins left by the Neighbors' ancient race; these were left by ours, I believe -- we are as ancient as they, or nearly. \"\n\n\"A wide and ruinous road of dark stone ran beside the water, which lapped its edges in places, leaving the great, dark paving blocks slimed and filthy in a way that recalled the sewer on Green\"\n\nThe two cities are compared several times. The clearing of the sewer reenacts the purging of a watery cleansing to clear out the corpses.\n\nWhat makes them similar is really how the narrator says they remind him of each other. There are probably more parallels. Keep in mind I do think the narrator is confused about who and where he is, and this refusal to recognize is thematically tied to his refusla to acknowledge himself as Silk and the irony of Horn's statement, \"Silk would never lie to himself as I have\" [paraphrased]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320723863.14853.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T03:44:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!? I always suspected Holly was up to no good with that pot smoking and some of her other comments, I have to tell you. I will try to read it in its entirety tomorrow, looks good so far from my skimming.\n\n--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Nick Lee \nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"urth\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 3:05 PM\n\n\n\nI would be interested in reading your paper, I've always intended to re-read Pandora with a criticial eye but never had the time.\nNo problem, Marc. I cited you in the paper, after all. Technically, you've appeared in print:http://www.nicholasleegoodman.com/pdf/holly%20hollander.pdfIt's been a while so I skimmed it and didn't notice too many proofing errors, though I probably need to do some more work on it. I've been meaning to submit it for publication but have not had an abundance of time.If nothing else, I think my reading of the book makes it more interesting.\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T03:51:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320723863.14853.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than once Wolfe has professed to collect ideas and names to use in his\nwork, with no necessary deep connection to their previous meanings.\n(In fact, much of his work is doing new things with old stuff; the fact is\nthat he doesn't invent his materials, it's the use that is novel.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's said this, yes. Such deep connections exist, however, and some\nare intended: Catherine, for example.\n\nI have wondered if Kim Lee Soong is just a random Korean name or if it\nis a corruption of Kim Il-sung, president of North Korea. The name\nmeans \"become the sun,\" and he indirectly had a major effect on\nWolfe's life after all. He's admitted to typos, and he might not have\nbeen sure of the spelling.\n\nOn the other hand, I've never been able to decide what \"Severian\" is a\nreference to. It could be the germanic tribe or a gnostic sect or a\nbishop or a Roman leader. Or maybe he just thought it sounded cool." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320726748.58265.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T04:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) pandora (was vanished people = (or /) heiros)", "in_reply_to": "<1320723863.14853.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read my own post from 2002 on Pandora to see what I had said. The list is so different now!? (I was a MUCH friendlier fellow too - and Roy and I were engaging in friendly banter which included a working knowledge of our respective ages and life situations.)? Fascinating. Looks like I used to proof read my posts before hitting send. Sorry about all these typos lately, guys. \n\nInteresting. (I blame the 2007 brain hemmorhages for the decreased quality of my posts, fwiw). As soon as I finish the last 70 books on my shelf I will devote myself to re-reading all of Wolfe, maybe something new will strike me. Or maybe the days of insight are simply gone. I'm going to try to recapture some of that old fun spirit in my posts if I can.\n\n--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:44 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\nThanks!? I always suspected Holly was up to no good with that pot smoking and some of her other comments, I have to tell you. I will try to read it in its entirety tomorrow, looks good so far from my skimming.\n\n--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Nick Lee \nSubject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"urth\" \nDate: Monday, November 7, 2011, 3:05 PM\n\n\n\nI would be interested in reading your paper, I've always intended to re-read Pandora with a criticial eye but never had the time.\nNo problem, Marc. I cited you in the paper, after all. Technically, you've appeared in print:http://www.nicholasleegoodman.com/pdf/holly%20hollander.pdfIt's been a while so I skimmed it and didn't notice too many proofing errors, though I probably need to do some more work on it. I've been meaning to submit it for publication but have not had an abundance of time.If nothing else, I think my reading of the book makes it more interesting.\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB91A13.5000300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T12:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320723777.368.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (08-11-2011 03:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes them similar is really how the narrator says they remind him\nof each other. There are probably more parallels. Keep in mind I do\nthink the narrator is confused about who and where he is, and this\nrefusal to recognize is thematically tied to his refusla to acknowledge\nhimself as Silk and the irony of Horn's statement, \"Silk would never lie\nto himself as I have\" [paraphrased]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus is of cyclopean size, but it has 'moved' along time. The abandoned \nparts, iiuc, largely crumble to pieces after a while. The underground, iiuc, \nis made of layers upon layers of ancient buildings.\n\nWe don't know the size of the City of the Inhumi, other than it's large and \nit's got some standing towers.\n\nThey look similar because both are large cities, in fact the only proper \nplanetary 'modern' cities the narrator knows. You can certainly say a \nrelationship between them is possible, but from there to a pretty good \nmapping there's a distance. These are just not enough data." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T12:50:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320723777.368.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"This was a tower indeed, its nose high as the tops of the tallest trees and\nits sleek lines radiating a strength it no longer posessed. I can see it now,\nthat slightly canted tower gleaming dully in the reddish ligh of the stifling \nafternoon. Like a rotting corpse, it showed ribs wehre some sideplates had\nbeen taken. How we shouted in our delight, thinking it would save us!\"\n[tower on Green to save them, its a ship like the Matachin tower]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It *does* sound like a ship, even though a metal structure with ribs and sideplates is hardly definitive of one. However, it may very well have been one of the Neighbours? old spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two cities are compared several times. The clearing of the sewer reenacts\nthe purging of a watery cleansing to clear out the corpses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would understand it as just that — a comparison. [I understand “Green is Urth” the same way, unless Wolfe really was making a terrible electrical pun, something of which he is perfectly capable!]\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320756623.49427.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T12:50:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB91A13.5000300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nessus is of cyclopean size, but it has 'moved' along time.\nThe abandoned parts, iiuc, largely crumble to pieces after a\nwhile. The underground, iiuc, is made of layers upon layers\nof ancient buildings.\n\nWe don't know the size of the City of the Inhumi, other\nthan it's large and it's got some standing towers.\n\nThey look similar because both are large cities, in fact\nthe only proper planetary 'modern' cities the narrator\nknows. You can certainly say a relationship between them is\npossible, but from there to a pretty good mapping there's a\ndistance. These are just not enough data.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So that canted tower that they expected to \"save them\" because it was a stripped rocket ship didn't do it for you with the round port windows? \n\nIt's the conglomeration of comparisons. Yes, the city of the inhumi reminding the rajan of Urth (or vice versa) is hinted at more than twice, and when introspective the narrator thinks things like, I had to stop and think about what I had really just said - because he knows he is not making the correct connection.\n\nI don't know what kind of concrete evidence you want - wolfe started out with the intention of writing a story where the didactic purpose was on top but the who what when where why and how (main character, setting, time) would be hidden and obscure without deeper level analysis.\n\nWhat similarity would satisfy you beyond doubt? That is not in the text because it can't be obvious; Wolfe wanted to obscure all the normally easily answerable questios here through the device of a narrator [SILK after OBW with only the barest trace of Horn] who is in denial about what has happened to himself, what has happened to his wife, and what has happened to his species. \n\nSo I can't prove it but all the comparisons and hints and that big huge stripped rocket tower with round port windows sure create a similar image; I can't do any more with that so let's just say you don't find the evidence compelling, but that doesn't mean the relationship is not hinted at." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB9346D.7090407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T13:53:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320756623.49427.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (08-11-2011 12:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nessus is of cyclopean size, but it has 'moved' along time. The\nabandoned parts, iiuc, largely crumble to pieces after a while. The\nunderground, iiuc, is made of layers upon layers of ancient buildings.\n\nWe don't know the size of the City of the Inhumi, other than it's large\nand it's got some standing towers.\n\nThey look similar because both are large cities, in fact the only\nproper planetary 'modern' cities the narrator knows. You can certainly\nsay a relationship between them is possible, but from there to a pretty\ngood mapping there's a distance. These are just not enough data.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So that canted tower that they expected to \"save them\" because it was a\nstripped rocket ship didn't do it for you with the round port windows?\n\nIt's the conglomeration of comparisons. Yes, the city of the inhumi\nreminding the rajan of Urth (or vice versa) is hinted at more than twice,\nand when introspective the narrator thinks things like, I had to stop and\nthink about what I had really just said - because he knows he is not\nmaking the correct connection.\n\nI don't know what kind of concrete evidence you want - wolfe started out\nwith the intention of writing a story where the didactic purpose was on\ntop but the who what when where why and how (main character, setting,\ntime) would be hidden and obscure without deeper level analysis.\n\nWhat similarity would satisfy you beyond doubt? That is not in the text\nbecause it can't be obvious; Wolfe wanted to obscure all the normally\neasily answerable questios here through the device of a narrator [SILK\nafter OBW with only the barest trace of Horn] who is in denial about what\nhas happened to himself, what has happened to his wife, and what has\nhappened to his species.\n\nSo I can't prove it but all the comparisons and hints and that big huge\nstripped rocket tower with round port windows sure create a similar\nimage; I can't do any more with that so let's just say you don't find the\nevidence compelling, but that doesn't mean the relationship is not hinted\nat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said 'You can certainly say a relationship between them is possible'.\nSomething that would be beyond *reasonable* doubt would be to have some\nstructure specific to Nessus appear in the City of the Inhumi; even make it \nsomething the narrator doesn't know in Nessus, so that the descriptions \ngiven in the two books are from different perspectives and not matchable \nwithout some good thinking on the part of the reader. The rocket tower falls \na bit short of that, though it is a possibility.\n\nIt's just that 'the City of the Inhumi is Nessus' is an extraordinary claim \n*even considering that Green is Urth's future*." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T14:38:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At some point I decided that I did not know what Wolfe's stories meant. I\ndecided it was all right to entertain notions that might seem far fetched \nto\nsee if anything substantive could be made of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it is. But I don't think you have reached the second stage with \nthe idea that the Green Man is a shapeshifting Father Inire. Why him - why \nnot Dorcas, say? Or Vodalus? Or all of them? Maybe that's where this \ntheory ends..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that\nis the case, I don't know why you bother with this list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm interested in substantive ideas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T14:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: So I can't prove it but all the comparisons and hints and that big huge\nstripped rocket tower with round port windows sure create a similar\nimage; I can't do any more with that so let's just say you don't find the\nevidence compelling, but that doesn't mean the relationship is not hinted\nat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This debate always reminds me of Severian flying around the Citadel, unable to find the\ntop of Valeria's tower. Where is it? Green perhaps? There is a quote somewhere about \nNessus extending outward far beyond its own boundaries. Duko Rigoglio? I forget. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T14:59:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee: You seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that\nis the case, I don't know why you bother with this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm interested in substantive ideas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes but, judging from your posts, the only substantive ideas to be found in here \nare your own. So the question remains unanswered: Why do you bother with this list?\nTo provide the sole substance in an otherwise barren wasteland of meaningless drivel? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320765405.85381.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T15:16:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EB9346D.7090407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's just that 'the City of the Inhumi is Nessus' is an\nextraordinary claim \n*even considering that Green is Urth's future*.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In real life it would be, not in a Dickensian type of fiction where coincidences and shared settings and unity of setting and theme are at least a possibility. How else could we ever make the comparison if Gene did not give us the comparitive information? Would the city of the inhumi map to Thrax or Saltus? No, of course not, and there is no hinting that they remind him of those places, where Silk never goes.\n\nFor me, the mere fact that him looking in the mirror and remembering things Silk remembers should indicate to our post OBW narrator that he is indeed the rebooted Silk, but he denies his senses because he would have to accept harsh realities he cannot. This directly applies to his inability to really see what he is looking at on the future Urth. \n\nIn any case, problems in accepting it are not entirely my responsibility to close: I was looking for a mechanism, had the wrong one in mind, was prompted by a revelation that had resonance in the text and a possible mechanism - that does not happen with random jokes; I am satisfied at least that part of the setting is accounted for, and no ignorance of the narrator can undo that - he doesn't know who, when, or where he is a narrator who furthermore claims in the text \"perhaps no one does\" undertand exactly what's going on.\n\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an insoluble puzzle ... unfortunately in this case I DO think it's insoluble, because even when the truth is presented categorically in 6 words only one or two people even entertain it as a possibility. Wolfe obeys rules in his fiction, Chekov's gun style, but it isn't easy to see. \n\nI'm not certain anyone could ever have come up with that solution if Gene had not let it slip :(. And no one believes it anyway except me and MAYBE one other list poster (confirmation bias, I know). But with the hints in the text that provide a the narrator thinking about Green before the evil of the inhumi when he winds up on urth and the somewhat frequent comparisons between Nessus and the city of the inhumi and statements like \"the city will look to the sky for a sign but no sign shall it have\" or stuff like that, I am quite quite certain those words were sincere." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T22:36:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320765405.85381.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be similar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0CE316E67E6441DBB10BFB15F3AF2644@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T22:43:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nick Lee: You seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that\nis the case, I don't know why you bother with this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm interested in substantive ideas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes but, judging from your posts, the only substantive ideas to be found in here \nare your own. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is not the case at all.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<81102A3297754C758B32676A61DCCCE7@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T23:35:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole idea of Father Inire appearing in numerous guises is essentially\na holistic one anyway. Like the old woman in the optical illusion you either\nsee it as a whole or don't see it at all. You can't get it through incrementally\nadding small pieces of the picture with this sort of debating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, since you say I never come up with the sort of ideas you like, here’s the solution to how Father Inire can be lots of people. Note how there is no actual shapeshifting in the standard sense in BotNS. Tzadkiel and the sea monsters can bud off small pieces of themselves, but Father Inire is a little guy who certainly couldn’t do that. So the Father Inire we see must be the bud of some gigantic creature, and once you realise that it’s obvious where he comes from.\nFather Inire is the Botanic Gardens! We are told repeatedly how he (that is to say the Talos-like “bud” that prowls the corridors of the House Absolute) is associated with them and has placed magics there, arranged the placing of certain parts, grown vicious deadly averns, etc. And the Botanic Gardens are right in the centre of the Commonwealth, hiding in plain sight. From there, little humanoid pieces scurry away, becoming artists, spies, and viziers. Many of the suspicious characters you have noted such as the boatman and Inire himself are associated with the place. And the Green Man is an obvious clue: this bud for some reason had not completed its disguise when it was captured in Saltus, and deprived of sunlight, it was unable to do so.\nThe Gardens battle the sea monsters Abaia, Erebus et al, similarly gigantic creatures living under the sea. The Wall of Nessus needs no further explanation ? the Gardens ordered its construction for their own protection.\nNeedless to say, a flooded but sunny world will be welcomed equally by both vegetables and fish. So while the Gardens and the sea monsters battle without quarter for the allegiance of mankind, both support Severian in his quest to bring the New Sun.\nI wish I knew something of Gene Wolfe’s food preferences, so I could guess which side he truly supports in the cosmic struggle between vegetables and fish that is at the heart of any sane interpretation of BotNS.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320805438.46996.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T02:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<81102A3297754C758B32676A61DCCCE7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be Gerry, in light of Empires of Foliage and Flower where Father Thyme is like a big time travelling vegetable. Could be. You have to watch out for the vegetation, I'm telling you! (I know you aren't serious but it sneaks up on you and EATS you)\n\n--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 3:35 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole idea of Father Inire appearing in numerous guises is essentially" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a holistic one anyway. Like the old woman in the optical illusion you either" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "see it as a whole or don't see it at all. You can't get it through incrementally" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "adding small pieces of the picture with this sort of debating.\n\n\n\nWell, since you say I never come up with the sort of ideas you like, here’s the solution to how Father Inire can be lots of people. Note how there is no actual shapeshifting in the standard sense in BotNS. Tzadkiel and the sea monsters can bud off small pieces of themselves, but Father Inire is a little guy who certainly couldn’t do that. So the Father Inire we see must be the bud of some gigantic creature, and once you realise that it’s obvious where he comes from.\n\n\n\nFather Inire is the Botanic Gardens!? We are told repeatedly how he (that is to say the Talos-like “bud” that prowls the corridors of the House Absolute) is associated with them and has placed magics there, arranged the placing of certain parts, grown vicious deadly averns, etc. And the Botanic Gardens are right in the centre of the Commonwealth, hiding in plain sight. From there, little humanoid pieces scurry away, becoming artists, spies, and viziers. Many of the suspicious characters you have noted such as the boatman and Inire himself are associated with the place. And the Green Man is an obvious clue: this bud for some reason had not completed its disguise when it was captured in Saltus, and deprived of sunlight, it was unable to do so.\n\n\n\nThe Gardens battle the sea monsters Abaia, Erebus et al, similarly gigantic creatures living under the sea. The Wall of Nessus needs no further explanation — the Gardens ordered its construction for their own protection.\n\n\n\nNeedless to say, a flooded but sunny world will be welcomed equally by both vegetables and fish. So while the Gardens and the sea monsters battle without quarter for the allegiance of mankind, both support Severian in his quest to bring the New Sun.\n\n\n\nI wish I knew something of Gene Wolfe’s food preferences, so I could guess which side he truly supports in the cosmic struggle between vegetables and fish that is at the heart of any sane interpretation of BotNS.\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3148E41C-5234-49B3-8980-FCC664AF2BF0@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T02:56:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<1320805438.46996.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thot it only ate trees... What are you suggesting re Gear id?\n\n\nNo dia 09/11/2011, ?s 02:23, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be Gerry, in light of Empires of Foliage and Flower where Father Thyme is like a big time travelling vegetable. Could be. You have to watch out for the vegetation, I'm telling you! (I know you aren't serious but it sneaks up on you and EATS you)\n\n--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 3:35 PM\n\n \n \nFrom: Lee Berman\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The whole idea of Father Inire appearing in numerous guises is essentially\na holistic one anyway. Like the old woman in the optical illusion you either\nsee it as a whole or don't see it at all. You can't get it through incrementally\nadding small pieces of the picture with this sort of debating." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nWell, since you say I never come up with the sort of ideas you like, here’s the solution to how Father Inire can be lots of people. Note how there is no actual shapeshifting in the standard sense in BotNS. Tzadkiel and the sea monsters can bud off small pieces of themselves, but Father Inire is a little guy who certainly couldn’t do that. So the Father Inire we see must be the bud of some gigantic creature, and once you realise that it’s obvious where he comes from.\n \nFather Inire is the Botanic Gardens! We are told repeatedly how he (that is to say the Talos-like “bud” that prowls the corridors of the House Absolute) is associated with them and has placed magics there, arranged the placing of certain parts, grown vicious deadly averns, etc. And the Botanic Gardens are right in the centre of the Commonwealth, hiding in plain sight. From there, little humanoid pieces scurry away, becoming artists, spies, and viziers. Many of the suspicious characters you have noted such as the boatman and Inire himself are associated with the place. And the Green Man is an obvious clue: this bud for some reason had not completed its disguise when it was captured in Saltus, and deprived of sunlight, it was unable to do so.\n \nThe Gardens battle the sea monsters Abaia, Erebus et al, similarly gigantic creatures living under the sea. The Wall of Nessus needs no further explanation ? the Gardens ordered its construction for their own protection.\n \nNeedless to say, a flooded but sunny world will be welcomed equally by both vegetables and fish. So while the Gardens and the sea monsters battle without quarter for the allegiance of mankind, both support Severian in his quest to bring the New Sun.\n \nI wish I knew something of Gene Wolfe’s food preferences, so I could guess which side he truly supports in the cosmic struggle between vegetables and fish that is at the heart of any sane interpretation of BotNS.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320809532.91931.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T03:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<3148E41C-5234-49B3-8980-FCC664AF2BF0@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/8/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 6:56 PM\n\n\n\nI thot it only ate trees... What are you suggesting re Gear id?\n\n\nSeriously?\n\nAre you sure you read my whole paper? Several times??Some islands on?Blue are made up entirely of giant herbs. I think Horn fell into one such gigantic herb's maw.\n\n?These are the kind of questions I just don't get. In Talk of Mandrakes a vegetable eats animals and kind of grows more powerful and sentient like the alzabo (you are what you eat)- I have for about a decade maintained exactly the same thing is happening in Short Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "<65FDC74291A649F6A05236A829D4D1A9@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T12:09:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<1320805438.46996.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be Gerry, in light of Empires of Foliage and Flower where \nFather Thyme is like a big time travelling vegetable. Could be. \nYou have to watch out for the vegetation, I'm telling you! (I know \nyou aren't serious but it sneaks up on you and EATS you) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " That’s included in my theory! What do you think the Garden of Everlasting Sleep is but the Gardens? open mouth? They get so many corpses they don’t mind sharing with the birds and Hildegrin. And of course the averns also kill manatees. Manatees (mermaids) are obviously spies and assassins sent by the sea monsters, but the Garden’s averns deal with them easily.\n\n It’s safe to assume that the Gardens/Inire absorb the memories of those who dissolve in their waters. And consequently, there’s little doubt that Dorcas, like the boatman, is one of the Gardens? bud puppets. There was a real Dorcas once, but the Dorcas Severian meets is a copy. \n\n Ah, how wrong I was to discount the vegetable and fish imagery that permeates BotNS, focusing instead on the travails of some pitiful wandering human and his species! And yet, has Wolfe ever written a single book that does not reference both vegetables and fish? Even the obvious land and sea references of Blue and Green in Short Sun did not give me a clue, nor the amphibious yet plantlike nature of the inhumi, who are destined finally to unite the two Kingdoms.\n\n Vegetables versus fish is the key! All else is just misdirection and playacting.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n --- On Tue, 11/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n Well, since you say I never come up with the sort of ideas you like, here’s the solution to how Father Inire can be lots of people. Note how there is no actual shapeshifting in the standard sense in BotNS. Tzadkiel and the sea monsters can bud off small pieces of themselves, but Father Inire is a little guy who certainly couldn’t do that. So the Father Inire we see must be the bud of some gigantic creature, and once you realise that it’s obvious where he comes from.\n Father Inire is the Botanic Gardens! We are told repeatedly how he (that is to say the Talos-like “bud” that prowls the corridors of the House Absolute) is associated with them and has placed magics there, arranged the placing of certain parts, grown vicious deadly averns, etc. And the Botanic Gardens are right in the centre of the Commonwealth, hiding in plain sight. From there, little humanoid pieces scurry away, becoming artists, spies, and viziers. Many of the suspicious characters you have noted such as the boatman and Inire himself are associated with the place. And the Green Man is an obvious clue: this bud for some reason had not completed its disguise when it was captured in Saltus, and deprived of sunlight, it was unable to do so.\n The Gardens battle the sea monsters Abaia, Erebus et al, similarly gigantic creatures living under the sea. The Wall of Nessus needs no further explanation ? the Gardens ordered its construction for their own protection.\n Needless to say, a flooded but sunny world will be welcomed equally by both vegetables and fish. So while the Gardens and the sea monsters battle without quarter for the allegiance of mankind, both support Severian in his quest to bring the New Sun.\n I wish I knew something of Gene Wolfe’s food preferences, so I could guess which side he truly supports in the cosmic struggle between vegetables and fish that is at the heart of any sane interpretation of BotNS. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBA8ADE.1060607@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T14:14:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<65FDC74291A649F6A05236A829D4D1A9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 6:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt’s safe to assume that the Gardens/Inire absorb the memories of those\nwho dissolve in their waters. And consequently, there’s little doubt\nthat Dorcas, like the boatman, is one of the Gardens? bud puppets." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pod people?\n\n\"They're here already! You're next!\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBA9A55.3020607@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-09T15:20:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<81102A3297754C758B32676A61DCCCE7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there is a great hidden reference (of course!) to T.S. Eliot:\n\n\"You who were with me in the ships at Mylae!\nThat corpse you planted last year in your garden,\nHad it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year?\nOr has the sudden frost disturbed its bed?\nOh keep the Dog far hence, that's friend to men,\nOr with his nails he'll dig it up again!\"\n\nDorcas=disturbed corpse. Why the Dog has nails? It must be\nSeverian who is connected to Triskele (dog) and Triskele\nis connected to aquastors, Malrubius, Inire -\n\nand Botanic Gardens -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n \n \n*From:* Lee Berman \n** \nThe whole idea of Father Inire appearing in numerous guises is \nessentially" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a holistic one anyway. Like the old woman in the optical illusion you \neither" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "see it as a whole or don't see it at all. You can't get it through \nincrementally" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "adding small pieces of the picture with this sort of debating.\n \nWell, since you say I never come up with the sort of ideas you like, \nhere’s the solution to how Father Inire can be lots of people. Note \nhow there is no actual shapeshifting in the standard sense in BotNS. \nTzadkiel and the sea monsters can bud off small pieces of themselves, \nbut Father Inire is a little guy who certainly couldn’t do that. So \nthe Father Inire we see must be the bud of some gigantic creature, and \nonce you realise that it’s obvious where he comes from.\n \nFather Inire is the Botanic Gardens! We are told repeatedly how he \n(that is to say the Talos-like “bud” that prowls the corridors of the \nHouse Absolute) is associated with them and has placed magics there, \narranged the placing of certain parts, grown vicious deadly averns, \netc. And the Botanic Gardens are right in the centre of the \nCommonwealth, hiding in plain sight. From there, little humanoid \npieces scurry away, becoming artists, spies, and viziers. Many of the \nsuspicious characters you have noted such as the boatman and Inire \nhimself are associated with the place. And the Green Man is an \nobvious clue: this bud for some reason had not completed its disguise \nwhen it was captured in Saltus, and deprived of sunlight, it was \nunable to do so.\n \nThe Gardens battle the sea monsters Abaia, Erebus et al, similarly \ngigantic creatures living under the sea. The Wall of Nessus needs no \nfurther explanation ? the Gardens ordered its construction for their \nown protection.\n \nNeedless to say, a flooded but sunny world will be welcomed equally by \nboth vegetables and fish. So while the Gardens and the sea monsters \nbattle without quarter for the allegiance of mankind, both support \nSeverian in his quest to bring the New Sun.\n \nI wish I knew something of Gene Wolfe’s food preferences, so I could \nguess which side he truly supports in the cosmic struggle between \nvegetables and fish that is at the heart of any sane interpretation of \nBotNS.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320853708.38029.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T15:48:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<4EBA9A55.3020607@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All this vegetable talk is good fun and games, but if you look over Empires of Foliage and Flower, Thyme is a herb who lives only off water while his \"daughter\" must eat, she plays at \"pease\" with little seeds to bring peace between two warring nations, and the false assuming of the opposing factions colors, green and yellow, does not end the war but rather still maintains a war \"between the laurels and the vines\" (see end of story.) Thyme takes the girl to the brook (Madregot?). \n\nANYWAY, yes, there really really are a whole lot of vegetable themes going on in the Sun sequences, and this mock is all well and good, but it is based on some serious undercurrents. Thyme drinks \"with a banyan tree\" and the identification of men with seeds by the girl is, at the very least, interesting (metaphor or not). In any case, Thyme is an eremite who walks with the Increate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<563027.16779.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-11-09T15:53:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as giant vegetable", "in_reply_to": "<4EBA9A55.3020607@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 15:20 09/11/2011, Sergei wrote:\nAnd there is a great hidden reference (of course!) to T.S. Eliot: \n\"You who were with me in the ships at Mylae! That corpse you planted \nlast year in your garden, Had it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this \nyear? Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? Oh keep the Dog far \nhence, that's friend to men, Or with his nails he'll dig it up \nagain!\" Dorcas=disturbed corpse. Why the Dog has nails? It must be \nSeverian who is connected to Triskele (dog) and Triskele is \nconnected to aquastors, Malrubius, Inire - and Botanic Gardens - Sergei" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking that this insight opens up Andrew Marvell's 'To His \nCoy Mistress' as a key to the BotNS, with its famous lines:\n\"My vegetable love should grow\nVaster then empires, and more slow.\"\n\nAnother couplet which Wolfe clearly drew upon:\n\"The grave's a fine and private place,\nBut none, I think, do there embrace.\"\n\nAnd it ends:\n\"Thus, though we cannot make our sun\nStand still, yet we will make him run.\"\n\nExcellent work, Gerry!\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBAAFFB.7030206@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-09T16:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly oppose any \"censure\" of this kind. We all may have our ideas \nand our\ncriteria of seriousness, the difference is not the reason to decide who \nshould\nparticipate and who should not.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nick Lee: You seem confident that you do know what Wolfe's stories mean. If that\nis the case, I don't know why you bother with this list.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm interested in substantive ideas.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nYes but, judging from your posts, the only substantive ideas to be found in here \nare your own. So the question remains unanswered: Why do you bother with this list?\nTo provide the sole substance in an otherwise barren wasteland of meaningless drivel? \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBAC721.6030906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:32:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Marc Aramini \n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be \nsimilar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket \nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:35:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAC721.6030906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm .... Nessus and the City of the Vanished People?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBAC828.3020708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:36:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAC721.6030906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be\nsimilar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most cities are by rivers.\nCities not made of stone would not physically endure long after abandoned.\nThe rocket tower is the one linking element. Acceptable, but not strong." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBACA6A.9020903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 1:35 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmm .... Nessus and the City of the Vanished People?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, but the question was for Gerry." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBACAE5.2010303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAC828.3020708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 1:36 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be\nsimilar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would \nthose be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most cities are by rivers.\nCities not made of stone would not physically endure long after \nabandoned.\nThe rocket tower is the one linking element. Acceptable, but not strong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n\n:D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBACCE5.4060001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:56:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBACAE5.2010303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 18:48):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 1:36 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be\nsimilar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Most cities are by rivers.\nCities not made of stone would not physically endure long after abandoned.\nThe rocket tower is the one linking element. Acceptable, but not strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n\n:D" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd be more happy with it if the connecting element were something funny." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320865004.99515.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T18:56:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAC828.3020708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 10:36 AM\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011\n18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus\nwould simply create an\ninsoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two\ndifferent cities could be\nsimilar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with\nclustered rocket\nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which\ncities would those be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most cities are by rivers.\nCities not made of stone would not physically endure long\nafter abandoned.\nThe rocket tower is the one linking element. Acceptable,\nbut not strong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The other linking element is how when he thinks about the cities he is somehow \"reminded\" of the other one. Does Paris remind you of New York? maybe, but Houston remind you of Seattle or Thrax remind you of Nessus?\n\nThe narrator has shown he can't make identifications when he has a reason to deny them: NO, I told you I'm not Silk. \"Looked in the mirror?\" Not Silk! \"read this passage?\" Okay, [nodding] I'm Silk. His denial is STRONG.\n\nSo the rocket is not the only linking element (and indeed, though I risk weakening my own argument, it's not even entirely clear from context whether that tower is originally from the city or an old abandoned one from the Whorl, but Wolfe is ambiguous as always)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBAD255.5010204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:19:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320865004.99515.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 1:56 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 10:36 AM\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011\n18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/8/2011 5:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini\n**\nTo have it be any city other than Nessus would simply create an insoluble puzzle ...\nOnly if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be similar in certain respects.\n- Gerry Quinn\nSo, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket landers as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Most cities are by rivers.\nCities not made of stone would not physically endure long\nafter abandoned.\nThe rocket tower is the one linking element. Acceptable,\nbut not strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other linking element is how when he thinks about the cities he is somehow \"reminded\" of the other one. Does Paris remind you of New York? maybe, but Houston remind you of Seattle or Thrax remind you of Nessus?\n\nThe narrator has shown he can't make identifications when he has a reason to deny them: NO, I told you I'm not Silk. \"Looked in the mirror?\" Not Silk! \"read this passage?\" Okay, [nodding] I'm Silk. His denial is STRONG.\n\nSo the rocket is not the only linking element (and indeed, though I risk weakening my own argument, it's not even entirely clear from context whether that tower is originally from the city or an old abandoned one from the Whorl, but Wolfe is ambiguous as always)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word your argument is missing here, Marc, is \"iconic.\" That rocket \nlander is iconic. It means something in the Sun Cycle: it is itself. To \nrecognize it on Green it is to understand either that there is a \nspacefaring civilization in Briah that builds cities out of rockets or \nthat this is Nessus. It's like the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes.\n\nHow it got there is another story. Demonstrating that will require an \naccumulation of evidence that may not be achievable. But this is not a \nmurder trial with its standard of \"beyond reasonable doubt.\" The \nconclusion is known---all you have to do is get there." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:32:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAD255.5010204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe word your argument is missing here, Marc, is \"iconic.\" That rocket\nlander is iconic. It means something in the Sun Cycle: it is itself. To\nrecognize it on Green it is to understand either that there is a spacefaring\ncivilization in Briah that builds cities out of rockets or that this is\nNessus. It's like the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is absolutely correct. There is clearly a _relationship_ between\nthe tower-lander on Green and the tower-lander in Nessus. But what\nthat relationship is remains indeterminate.\n\nSome want to see it as one of identity. Clearly possible, but far from\nestablished.\n\nI suggest that it is one of _resonance_. The tower on Green resonates\nwith the tower in Nessus.\n\nSamuel R. Delany writes in one of his essays that he insisted on\nkeeping a passage in one of his books where a character's foot slips\non a stone in a river, though it had no obvious consequences. Why?\nBecause, Delany explains, there is another passage in the story where\nanother character steps on the same stone and does _not_ slip. There\nis a resonance between those two passages, which generates discourse\nbetween them and so a kind of meaning.\n\nI think Wolfe creates this kind of meaning a lot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:32:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n:D" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nErm...to get ideas on developing a space age, stackable potato chip?\n \n;- )http://kokorognosis.livejournal.com/43391.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I strongly oppose any \"censure\" of this kind. We all may have our ideas \nand our criteria of seriousness, the difference is not the reason to decide who should\nparticipate and who should not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDon't worry Sergei. There is no censure involved. Nick and I are no more interested in having \nGerry stop posting than Gerry is interested in others not posting theories he hates.\n \nIt is theater. All in good fun and serves to provide a needed and requested service. You seem \nlike a gentle, serious soul Sergei. But some prefer the thrill of battle and it is a gesture of\nkindness and generosity to provide that to those people. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320867466.68742.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:37:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, resonance, but to me, a personal friend of Wolfe, for Green not to really be Urth, Gene had to be making a terrible joke on Christmas to a fan who pretty much worships him. \n\nSo, no matter what, for me, Green is always going to be Urth and Gene is always going to be my friend. Maybe I can't prove it, but the resonance with Nessus, the mechanism, and his words to me make it as concrete as it can possibly be, so ... what does the mere resonance do if the reality tells us the entire future of Urth? What does that resonance do that the reality doesn't? What's the point?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 11:32 AM\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The word your argument is missing here, Marc, is\n\"iconic.\" That rocket\nlander is iconic. It means something in the Sun Cycle:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it is itself. To\nrecognize it on Green it is to understand either that\nthere is a spacefaring\ncivilization in Briah that builds cities out of\nrockets or that this is\nNessus. It's like the Statue of Liberty in Planet of\nthe Apes.\n\nThis is absolutely correct. There is clearly a\n_relationship_ between\nthe tower-lander on Green and the tower-lander in Nessus.\nBut what\nthat relationship is remains indeterminate.\n\nSome want to see it as one of identity. Clearly possible,\nbut far from\nestablished.\n\nI suggest that it is one of _resonance_. The tower on Green\nresonates\nwith the tower in Nessus.\n\nSamuel R. Delany writes in one of his essays that he\ninsisted on\nkeeping a passage in one of his books where a character's\nfoot slips\non a stone in a river, though it had no obvious\nconsequences. Why?\nBecause, Delany explains, there is another passage in the\nstory where\nanother character steps on the same stone and does _not_\nslip. There\nis a resonance between those two passages, which generates\ndiscourse\nbetween them and so a kind of meaning.\n\nI think Wolfe creates this kind of meaning a lot.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBAD6E2.3040301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:39:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/9/2011 2:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n:D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erm...to get ideas on developing a space age, stackable potato chip?\n\n;- )http://kokorognosis.livejournal.com/43391.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, wasn't Tzadkiel described as golden brown and delicious?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004301cc9f17$77e8a020$2fd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:40:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) That canted tower", "in_reply_to": "<1320723777.368.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don't want to be involved in this stuff any more, but some things\nbug me even more than others, so I'm going to pop out of lurker mode for a\nmoment to address this particular issue. I was hoping someone else would\npoint this out, but more than a day has gone by and it hasn't happened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini quoted and wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you've said this a number of times. But just what\nmakes Nessus similar to the City of the Inhumi?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just going to use direct quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"This was a tower indeed, its nose high as the tops of the tallest trees\nand its sleek lines radiating a strength it no longer posessed. I can see\nit now, that slightly canted tower gleaming dully in the reddish ligh of the\nstifling afternoon. Like a rotting corpse, it showed ribs wehre some\nsideplates had been taken. How we shouted in our delight, thinking it would\nsave us!\"\n[tower on Green to save them, its a ship like the Matachin tower]<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nThe above quote does little to support the contention that the City of the\nInhumi is Nessus. In fact, it undermines it because the \"canted tower\" in\nquestion wasn't in the City of the Inhumi at all, or even near it, as the\nfull context makes quite clear. The above quote is from page 125 of IGJ.\n\nThis is the gist of the context. After Horn was washed down the sewer when\nthe clog of corpses was cleared, he eventually decided to return to the City\nto free Sinew and the other men who had arrived on their lander. He had\nabout a hundred men when they fought their way out of the City (120). He\ntried to persuade the men to try to retake the lander, but they wanted to\nleave and find other colonists. They traveled a long way and found a small\nsettlement, but were not welcomed. The two groups fought and Horn's band of\nmen was down to 69 (121).\n\nHe again tried to get them to return to the City to reclaim the lander they\nhad arrived in. There was dissension, but eventually he and a smaller band\nreturned to the City and found that the lander was gone. They had to fight\ntheir way out of the City again, and Horn and Krait were both wounded. The\nband was down to 27, counting Krait (123). Krait died after imparting the\nSecret.\n\nThe survivors \"traveled very far\" and eventually came to \"a deserted\nsettlement, in whose center stood a ruined lander.\" This is from the\nparagraph immediately before the text quoted above by Marc. After the quoted\ntext, it is established that this is the lander that Horn and his remaining\nmen tried to restore. They found \"cards as well as bones in the wretched\nhuts\" of that deserted settlement, and used the cards to restore the\nlander's monitor. Directed by the monitor, they \"tried to restore the lander\nitself, raiding the few settlements we could locate, and sometimes carying\nheavy parts from other landers for scores of leagues.\" They didn't succeed,\nbut came close. Sinew betrayed his father and there was more fighting, until\nonly two men were left. They too left him.\n\nThe \"canted tower\" of the quote is the lander Horn died in, one of the many\nruined landers scattered all over Blue and Green, landers that had been\nlaunched from the _Whorl_. We later learn that the lander Horn died in is\nnot far from Sinew's village, but it is far from the City of the Inhumi.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320867733.32611.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) That canted tower", "in_reply_to": "<004301cc9f17$77e8a020$2fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough Roy. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: (urth) That canted tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 11:40 AM\nI really don't want to be involved in\nthis stuff any more, but some things\nbug me even more than others, so I'm going to pop out of\nlurker mode for a\nmoment to address this particular issue. I was hoping\nsomeone else would\npoint this out, but more than a day has gone by and it\nhasn't happened.\n\nMarc Aramini quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, you've said this a number of times. But just\nwhat\nmakes Nessus similar to the City of the Inhumi?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm just going to use direct quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"This was a tower indeed, its nose high as the tops of\nthe tallest trees\nand its sleek lines radiating a strength it no longer\nposessed. I can see\nit now, that slightly canted tower gleaming dully in the\nreddish ligh of the\nstifling afternoon. Like a rotting corpse, it showed\nribs wehre some\nsideplates had been taken. How we shouted in our\ndelight, thinking it would\nsave us!\"\n[tower on Green to save them, its a ship like the\nMatachin tower]<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip]\n\nThe above quote does little to support the contention that\nthe City of the\nInhumi is Nessus. In fact, it undermines it because the\n\"canted tower\" in\nquestion wasn't in the City of the Inhumi at all, or even\nnear it, as the\nfull context makes quite clear. The above quote is from\npage 125 of IGJ.\n\nThis is the gist of the context. After Horn was washed down\nthe sewer when\nthe clog of corpses was cleared, he eventually decided to\nreturn to the City\nto free Sinew and the other men who had arrived on their\nlander. He had\nabout a hundred men when they fought their way out of the\nCity (120). He\ntried to persuade the men to try to retake the lander, but\nthey wanted to\nleave and find other colonists. They traveled a long way\nand found a small\nsettlement, but were not welcomed. The two groups fought\nand Horn's band of\nmen was down to 69 (121).\n\nHe again tried to get them to return to the City to reclaim\nthe lander they\nhad arrived in. There was dissension, but eventually he and\na smaller band\nreturned to the City and found that the lander was gone.\nThey had to fight\ntheir way out of the City again, and Horn and Krait were\nboth wounded. The\nband was down to 27, counting Krait (123). Krait died after\nimparting the\nSecret.\n\nThe survivors \"traveled very far\" and eventually came to \"a\ndeserted\nsettlement, in whose center stood a ruined lander.\" This is\nfrom the\nparagraph immediately before the text quoted above by Marc.\nAfter the quoted\ntext, it is established that this is the lander that Horn\nand his remaining\nmen tried to restore. They found \"cards as well as bones in\nthe wretched\nhuts\" of that deserted settlement, and used the cards to\nrestore the\nlander's monitor. Directed by the monitor, they \"tried to\nrestore the lander\nitself, raiding the few settlements we could locate, and\nsometimes carying\nheavy parts from other landers for scores of leagues.\" They\ndidn't succeed,\nbut came close. Sinew betrayed his father and there was\nmore fighting, until\nonly two men were left. They too left him.\n\nThe \"canted tower\" of the quote is the lander Horn died in,\none of the many\nruined landers scattered all over Blue and Green, landers\nthat had been\nlaunched from the _Whorl_. We later learn that the lander\nHorn died in is\nnot far from Sinew's village, but it is far from the City\nof the Inhumi.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:42:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320867466.68742.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nSure, resonance, but to me, a personal friend of Wolfe, for Green not to really be Urth, Gene had to be making a terrible joke on Christmas to a fan who pretty much worships him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no problem with this. The only question it leaves open, which\nWolfe's note doesn't help with, is in what _sense_ \"Green is Urth.\" I\nsuppose the electrical joke is possible, but I would set it aside as a\nbonus; he clearly means something about the text.\n\nOne possibility: \"Green is what Urth will become if...\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320867891.7385.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:44:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAD255.5010204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes when Roy posts I feel like Michael Douglas in \"Falling Down\".\n\n\"When did I become the bad guy?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:55:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320867891.7385.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The word your argument is missing here, Marc, is \"iconic.\" That rocket\nlander is iconic. It means something in the Sun Cycle: it is itself. To\nrecognize it on Green it is to understand either that there is a spacefaring\ncivilization in Briah that builds cities out of rockets or that this is\nNessus. It's like the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Dave. I think this is a better direction for the discussion- offering alternatives\nto consider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: This is absolutely correct. There is clearly a _relationship_ between\nthe tower-lander on Green and the tower-lander in Nessus. But what\nthat relationship is remains indeterminate. Some want to see it as one of identity. Clearly\npossible, but far from established. I suggest that it is one of _resonance_. The tower on\nGreen resonates with the tower in Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, but can you go a step further. Why does Wolfe make them resonate? Can you offer a\npossiblity (or two) other than straight identity?\n\nSame question for \"GREEN is Urth!\" There seems (thankfully) to be no debate that the words\nexist nor that Gene Wolfe wrote them. They mean something. If not straight identity then\nwhat?\n\nSaying what something is not is very easy. Let's exercise our brains a little, put some effort\n(and pride?) on the line and suggest what something is, eh, wot? Marc has. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBADAC8.9090508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:55:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320867466.68742.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/9/2011 2:37 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSure, resonance, but to me, a personal friend of Wolfe, for Green not to really be Urth, Gene had to be making a terrible joke on Christmas to a fan who pretty much worships him.\n\nSo, no matter what, for me, Green is always going to be Urth and Gene is always going to be my friend. Maybe I can't prove it, but the resonance with Nessus, the mechanism, and his words to me make it as concrete as it can possibly be, so ... what does the mere resonance do if the reality tells us the entire future of Urth? What does that resonance do that the reality doesn't? What's the point?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Jeff spelled out one possible explanation, which is that Green \nis to Urth as Urth is to us. That is, back a cycle or two, Urth is our \nfuture---one possible future that we will probably not see---and back a \ncycle or two before that, Long/Short Sun is Urth's future---again, one \npossible future that Ushas may not see. This cycle seems to incorporate \nMars as a twin of Green (with no Lune) and the 6-limbed Neighbors. Sev's \ncycle has a Mars and a Lune, as does ours. These differences between \ncycles are huge from a nonhumancentric perspective, and yet the story \ngoes on as though they are not important at all (much like the \nresemblance to South America). Nessus is one physical thing that seems \nto connect them.\n\nIt boggles my mind that anyone would want to tell a story this way, but \nJeff's point is accurate---it excuses the disjointedness. This Nessus on \nGreen may not actually be the Nessus we know, but it must be \"a\" Nessus.\n\nWhen I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would Typhon \nhave sent the Whorl to Urth? Well, he didn't, obviously---Pas did. And \nthat means Tartarus and the Outsider did. (Oho, aha.)\n\nNow, after having read all the debate over astral projection, this \nReturn to Urth seems a far lesser problem than everything else." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T19:59:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBADAC8.9090508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/9/2011 2:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n:D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erm...to get ideas on developing a space age, stackable potato chip?\n\n;- )http://kokorognosis.livejournal.com/43391.html\n\nHey, wasn't Tzadkiel described as golden brown and delicious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, that was Thecla.\n \nack! sorry, sorry! ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D8668B4D8918A4F867C91157C7CE64F2C87C2CD@N9052.resurs910.se>", "from": { "name": "Nils Göransson", "address": "nils.goransson at skatteverket.se" }, "date": "2011-11-10T06:08:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dra fr?gan till Jessica Jansson som ?r Driftkoordinatior f?r Win, och referera till RFC:n!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nH?lsningar,\n\n\n\t\tNissE\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.\" \n- Oscar Wilde\n\n\n\n\n\n\nNils G?ransson\nSkatteverket IT | Infrastruktur | Windows Server\n010-574 99 45 | 0708-50 68 74\nnils.goransson at skatteverket.se\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----\nFr?n: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] F?r Lee Berman\nSkickat: den 9 november 2011 21:00\nTill: urth at urth.net\n?mne: (urth) vanished people=Hieros" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/9/2011 2:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: This reminds me of a joke: Why did the engineer read a book of fiction?\n:D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erm...to get ideas on developing a space age, stackable potato chip?\n\n;- )http://kokorognosis.livejournal.com/43391.html\n\nHey, wasn't Tzadkiel described as golden brown and delicious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, that was Thecla.\n \nack! sorry, sorry! ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBBB23A.10301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T11:15:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (09-11-2011 19:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, resonance, but to me, a personal friend of Wolfe, for Green not\nto really be Urth, Gene had to be making a terrible joke on Christmas\nto a fan who pretty much worships him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no problem with this. The only question it leaves open, which\nWolfe's note doesn't help with, is in what _sense_ \"Green is Urth.\" I\nsuppose the electrical joke is possible, but I would set it aside as a\nbonus; he clearly means something about the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that the electrical joke actually strenghtens the identification, in\na Roger Rabbit way (is there any mention anywhere to Rigoglio having long\nears or wearing a bow tie?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One possibility: \"Green is what Urth will become if...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I don't like that kind of thing, and I don't think GW likes either.\n\nAgain, 'Green is Urth' intsa 'The CotI is Nessus'.\n\nBtw, why is it that I keep imagining Blue with lots of ocean and Green with \nvery little? It's quite doubtful Green's jungles could be there without \noceans around." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBBB2F1.6040707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T11:18:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBADAC8.9090508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 19:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would Typhon have\nsent the Whorl to Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing that may be being overlooked is that the Whorl goes on in its \nvoyage after colonising Blue/Green. So it is not the case that the Whorl was \nmeant to colonise one particular system. So it is not the case that that \nsystem 'must' be this or that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T12:58:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBBB2F1.6040707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I once had a theory that the Whorl never left Urths system and\nfunctioned more like an Ark made to spare some of humanity from the\nflooding of Ushas. Typhon knowing of the flooding brought by the\nWhite Fountain built the Whorl/Mainframe as a way to continue his rule\nafter the New Suns coming. If Green is indeed Urth maybe the Whorl\nwas always in orbit right over Severians head the whole time. Again\nthis was a theory I had years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 19:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would Typhon\nhave\nsent the Whorl to Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing that may be being overlooked is that the Whorl goes on in its\nvoyage after colonising Blue/Green. So it is not the case that the Whorl was\nmeant to colonise one particular system. So it is not the case that that\nsystem 'must' be this or that.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T13:32:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBBB23A.10301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Btw, why is it that I keep imagining Blue with lots of ocean and Green with \nvery little? It's quite doubtful Green's jungles could be there without \noceans around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because in Blue most of the people we meet live by the sea, and in Green they all live in the jungle.\nAlso, of course, the names of the planets indicate that they must have significant coloration appropriate to their names.\nI think Green probably has some oceans (a human-inhabitable non-terraformed planet probably has to, although that has never restrained the imagination of SF writers). But we never go there.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T13:38:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: I once had a theory that the Whorl never left Urths system and\nfunctioned more like an Ark made to spare some of humanity from the\nflooding of Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Sounds along the lines of David's Planet of the Apes/Statue of Liberty \nscenario. Could be. I think the important point you bring up is that the Whorl\nis an ark.\n \nNoah's ship functioned to repopulate a flooded earth. Tzadkiel's ship functioned\nto repopulate a flooded Ushas. The Whorl functioned to (re-?) populate a flooded\nBlue.\n \nI think that is a pretty solid foundation to build a Sun Series theory upon. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<542DB0D528D046E39B71E447A0E6BE3B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T13:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBAC721.6030906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only if you reject the possibility that two different cities could be \nsimilar in certain respects." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, two cities by a river could be made of stone with clustered rocket \nlanders as towers? That's clearly possible, but which cities would those be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems Roy has answered the question of the canted tower in the City of the Inhumi by pointing out that it wasn’t there.\nAnd the one that was supposedly there *wasn’t* part of a cluster, so it’s different anyway.\nAs for the cities, we know that one was Nessus, built on Urth by humans (with some extra-Solar input), and one was the City of the Inhumi, built on Green by the Neighbours. We were told this.\nI don’t recall the general architecture of Nessus outside the citadel being described. Was it full of skyscrapers like the City of the Inhumi appears to be? If so, I think Severian would have mentioned them somewhere. Even if it was, I don’t think it would be a defining property of a galactically unique city.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T14:07:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ive always been interested in trying to further that idea and would\nlike to hear any evidence for or against it if you guys have some." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: I once had a theory that the Whorl never left Urths system\nand\nfunctioned more like an Ark made to spare some of humanity from the\nflooding of Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Sounds along the lines of David's Planet of the Apes/Statue of Liberty\nscenario. Could be. I think the important point you bring up is that the\nWhorl\nis an ark.\n\nNoah's ship functioned to repopulate a flooded earth. Tzadkiel's ship\nfunctioned\nto repopulate a flooded Ushas. The Whorl functioned to (re-?) populate a\nflooded\nBlue.\n\nI think that is a pretty solid foundation to build a Sun Series theory upon.\n\t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T14:20:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques: Btw, why is it that I keep imagining Blue with lots of ocean and \nGreen with very little? It's quite doubtful Green's jungles could be there without \noceans around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Because in Blue most of the people we meet live by the sea, and in Green they \nall live in the jungle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes! I think this is on the proper path to understanding. Planetologically, Green might be\nexpected to have oceans. But Green is not a planet. It is a literary creation. Larry Niven\nor some other hard SF writer would have mentioned oceans to keep the science believable. But \nWolfe does not.\n \nAnd, in my opinion, this is intentional. He cannot mention any oceans on Green. It would \nruin the model he has been building with Ushas and with Blue. It would completely water\ndown (heh) the scene where the sewer is flooded and cleansed. The fallen Garden of Eden \ntheme of Green would be lost along with the Flood allusions for Ushas and Blue.\n \nWe do see and visit rudimentary jungles on Blue. There is also a relatively small population\nof inhumi. This fits the model, and serves the same purpose as Severian seeing Juturna on \nUshas. After a world cleansing there is always some evil still left. But the cleansing reduces \nevil to a manageable level, so humanity has a chance.\n \nAs I see Wolfe's thinking:\n \nAnicent earth was so overrun and corrupted with fallen angels/demons/pagan gods that God\nhad to cleanse it with a flood and start over with the one pure family available.\n \nUrth was so overrun and corrupted with similar beings that The Increate needed a flood to\ncleanse it and start over with uncorrupted humans who had been away from Urth for a long\ntime.\n \nGreen IS so overrun with serpent/reptilian demons that humanity has no chance there. It is\nEden after the fall. It needs a flood. \n \nAnd showing an ocean on Green would kill the unscientific image of endless jungle that Wolfe \nhas purposefully put into Antonio's (and my) mind.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<297FBC6070264B6DA57C5E2B8E05322A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T14:47:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Noah's ship functioned to repopulate a flooded earth. Tzadkiel's ship functioned\nto repopulate a flooded Ushas. The Whorl functioned to (re-?) populate a flooded\nBlue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there is no indication, as far as I am aware, that Blue has suffered a disastrous flood.\n\nIt is a watery planet, yes, and it has cities under the waves, as all watery planets with ancient cities doubtless do. But, if my understanding is correct, the Neighbours were doing fine until they developed space technology and went to Green, eventually awakening the inhumi to intelligence. That was the disaster that befell them, not a Flood, and it affected both planets as a flood could not have.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320937174.28473.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T14:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/10/11, larry miller wrote:\nIve always been interested in trying\nto further that idea and would\nlike to hear any evidence for or against it if you guys\nhave some." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The passage of time makes it difficult to imagine that the long sun whorl didn't go somehwere, unless it's not 300 but 3000 years as the lost digit in Maytera's ruminations might hint at - not enough information. It seems to have gone somewhere.\n\nI always saw it as an ark, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320937366.33938.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:02:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320937174.28473.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can the moon be an asteroid or not? No? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/10/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 6:59 AM\n\n\n--- On Thu, 11/10/11, larry miller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ive always been interested in trying\nto further that idea and would\nlike to hear any evidence for or against it if you\nguys\nhave some." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The passage of time makes it difficult to imagine that the\nlong sun whorl didn't go somehwere, unless it's not 300 but\n3000 years as the lost digit in Maytera's ruminations might\nhint at - not enough information. It seems to have\ngone somewhere.\n\nI always saw it as an ark, too.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320939291.11174.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:34:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320937366.33938.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night \nHas flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight: \n And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught \nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light. \n\nJust wanted to ask a question about this cosmologically. What is moving in this quote? How does it apply to what's going on in Urth of the New Sun? Is the noose simply an effluvium or arreola of light around something stationary? Or is it grabbing hold of the turret? Which stone has been flung?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:37:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320937366.33938.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \nSent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:02 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/10/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nCan the moon be an asteroid or not? No? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose it could be described as one, especially by someone who didn’t know where it originated. The definition of “asteroid” is a bit vague, but it’s generally thought of as a small body, too small to become a sphere due to its own gravitational force.\nThe largest asteroids are about 500 miles in diameter somewhat ellipsoidal — there are moves to categorise them as dwarf planets. The Moon is over 2000 miles in diameter and spherical. So it doesn’t really fit the picture if you expect an asteroid to be somewhat irregular in shape.\nAlso, the Moon’s gravity would render hollowing it out next to impossible. And despite the Whorl being both large and of ill-defined size, it is difficult to imagine that it could be as large as the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The passage of time makes it difficult to imagine that the\nlong sun whorl didn't go somehwere, unless it's not 300 but\n3000 years as the lost digit in Maytera's ruminations might\nhint at - not enough information. It seems to have\ngone somewhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m guessing the intention is that it travelled for 300 years Whorl-time, but due to relativistic time dilation that was about 2000 years on Urth. [A problem is that Sol seems to be visible, albeit dimly, in the skies of Blue, indicating a distance of less than a hundred light years. Another is that if Typhon had that much energy at his disposal, solar dimming shouldn’t have troubled him. But it’s in accordance with SF tropes, so I think we are probably intended to read it so rather than nit-pick the physics. An alternative explanation is that the Whorl travelled at only a small fraction of light speed, in which case only 300 years passed on Urth also.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always saw it as an ark, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a generation ship in SF *is* an ark. But if the implication of “ark” includes escape from a disaster, it doesn’t really work. Typhon was surely at the height of his powers when he had it constructed.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBBEFFE.6030403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320937174.28473.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 8:59 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe passage of time makes it difficult to imagine that the long sun \nwhorl didn't go somehwere, unless it's not 300 but 3000 years as the \nlost digit in Maytera's ruminations might hint at - not enough \ninformation. It seems to have gone somewhere. I always saw it as an \nark, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I have a question at the end Marc)\n\nIf the Whorl is made to travel at nearly the speed of light, it doesn't \nmatter how long the Cargo has been sailing. The relative time of the \ntrip is expended speeding up and slowing down. The Time traveling at \nnearly the speed of light is nearly zero.\n\nIf the time traveling is 3000 years, that's still not long enough for \nnature alone to cause the dramatic changes we see in Blue and Green. No \nLune (if Blue is Verthandi). The humanity Severian meets in Ushas (in \nwhich he and the survivors have become myth) are replaced by or evolved \ninto Neighbors.\n\nConsidering how blue Ushas is at the end of Urth of the New Sun, Wolfe \nis seriously covering his tracks to have hid those oceans in a morass of \njungles.\n\nThat's not an argument against the Green Urth theory. I'm just saying \nthat the non-relative length of time between Typhon in the Age of Myth \nand the Whorl's arrival at Green is probably a dead-end.\n\nQuestion: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green were in \nUrth's very distant past? That would argue that the Dionysus references \nare a clue to how the myth got there in the first place?*~ I understand \nthat you want the City of the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not \noverwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel description of the \ncity and Nessus was only an implied connection because they are both \ncities on the same planet or coincidentally at the same place.\n\n*~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one) attested that \nalthough Dionysus as the \"newest\" of the Olympians, he was actually much \nolder...maybe the oldest of the gods.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBBF10A.8030606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:43:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320939291.11174.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 9:34 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAwake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night\nHas flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:\n And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light.\n\nJust wanted to ask a question about this cosmologically. What is moving in this quote? How does it apply to what's going on in Urth of the New Sun? Is the noose simply an effluvium or arreola of light around something stationary? Or is it grabbing hold of the turret? Which stone has been flung?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always presumed it is the Venus, the Morning star." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T15:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320939291.11174.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night \nHas flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight: \n And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught \nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just wanted to ask a question about this cosmologically. What is moving\n in this quote? How does it apply to what's going on in Urth of the New \nSun? Is the noose simply an effluvium or arreola of light around something \nstationary? Or is it grabbing hold of the turret? Which stone has been flung?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first thought is that Morning = Head of Day = Severian, and the stone that puts the stars to flight is the White Fountain. But nothing literal is intended. I guess the Hunter of the East is the Sun (both in Wolfe’s interpretation and the original) and the Sultan’s Turret could be a tower in Nessus, or in the dawn anywhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320942761.92088.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T16:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBBEFFE.6030403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/10/11, James Wynn wrote:\nQuestion: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green\nwere in Urth's very distant past? That would argue that the\nDionysus references are a clue to how the myth got there in\nthe first place?*~? I understand that you want the City\nof the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not\noverwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel\ndescription of the city and Nessus was only an implied\nconnection because they are both cities on the same planet\nor coincidentally at the same place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one)\nattested that although Dionysus as the \"newest\" of the\nOlympians, he was actually much older...maybe the oldest of\nthe gods.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My only concern here is: why the past? How did they get there if they left at Typhon's time? Obviously with time travel there could be past or present, but why would the past be any easier than the future? The whole point of the hybridization is instant one-generation speciation. If there is NO hybridization then really nothing can account for the changes in species in even 100,000 years. Why would he go forward in time when he's thinking about Green before the evil of the inhumi and winds up on Urth? It makes no more sense at best and still has all the same problems as the Green is future urth, in my opinion.\n\nThere are quotes like \"there must be a name for recognizing something you have called by a previous name\" and \"paradoxes explain everything, that's why they can't be explained\" from krait over the pit. (direct quote after work, the first is when Horn's son is narrating and see's Oreb as scylla on urth at the very end of RTTW) that I feel are just explicitly meta-textual to what Gene is doing. Statements like \"how green it is after the rains\" and \"the city looks to the sky for a sign but no sign shall they get but the one from the fishes belly\" (those are all paraphrases at this time) seem to me those places where it is Gene speaking to the reader rather than the narrator's voice.\n\nThe man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like a familiar figure, doesn't he? Then again, the blue glow and the spider like fellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said that it was not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC077D.3010605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:18:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320942761.92088.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nQuestion: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green\nwere in Urth's very distant past? That would argue that the\nDionysus references are a clue to how the myth got there in\nthe first place?*~ I understand that you want the City\nof the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not\noverwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel\ndescription of the city and Nessus was only an implied\nconnection because they are both cities on the same planet\nor coincidentally at the same place.\n\n*~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one)\nattested that although Dionysus as the \"newest\" of the\nOlympians, he was actually much older...maybe the oldest of\nthe gods.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nMy only concern here is: why the past? How did they get there if they left at Typhon's time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They got there with the help of the Neighbors. They got there with the \nhelp of the Heirogrammates. Any number of ways, intentional and \nunintentional." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Obviously with time travel there could be past or present, but why would the past be any easier than the future?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, personally, I think the hybridization of the sentient and \nnon-sentient life (if true) is referred to only in the the vaguest \npossible terms. In order to overcome just ONE of the major obstacles in \nthe Green Urth theory, I have to accept the Hybrid theory whole. \nStrategically, I'd like a little more wiggle room. I'd like to be able \nto consider the Green Urth theory separate from the Hybird theory. \nPutting the Neighbors and Inhumi in the distant past allows that.\n\nQ: \"Where are the Neighbors in Severian's time?\"\nA: They are every tree he encounters because the Neighbors are away in \ndream-travel where most or all have died, leaving soulless trees that \ncontinue to reproduce.\n\nQ: How did the wildlife of Blue become so alien?\nA: Because the evolved on Verthandi in the very distant past before it \nlost its atmosphere.\n\nA major problem with Green being the future Urth is \"how far in the \nfuture\"? More than 3000 years after Typhon, I'd say, for it to have been \nlater than the end of Urth of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would he go forward in time when he's thinking about Green before the evil of the inhumi and winds up on Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Rigiglio is thinking of Nessus and the places are the same. From \nthe position of the travelers, Nessus is in their relative past. Are \nthey going forward in Time or back? It's no harder than going back. If \nGreen is Urth, then for the Rajan to meet Severian, he has to be \ntraveling back in time or forward in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It makes no more sense at best and still has all the same problems as the Green is future urth, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It totally eliminates one of the obstacles to the Green Urth theory \nwithout the *need* for a hybidization theory which...\n1) you are not claiming Wolfe has confirmed.\n\n2) Is just a really big walnut to swallow whole.\n\n3) Could still be true even if Green is in Urth's past.\n\nOn the other hand, the Ancient Green Urth theory...\n\n1) Feeds into the extreme archeology theories of ancient human \ncapabilities and civilization to which Wolfe is quite inclined.\n\n2) Provides narrative rationale (rather than merely thematic ones) for \nthe Dionysus references." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...]\n\nThe man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like a familiar figure, doesn't he? Then again, the blue glow and the spider like fellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said that it was not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the cloak looks familiar. I'm not sure about the gait. But \nSeverian is a Time Traveler. Why would he not be found in the distant past?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:23:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC077D.3010605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Green can be Urth's past, because that would put Blue\nsomewhere in the Solar System's past, and I don't think that works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 9:18 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn “wrote:\n\nQuestion: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green\nwere in Urth's very distant past” That would argue that the\nDionysus references are a clue to how the myth got there in\nthe first place?*~ “I understand that you want the City\nof the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not\noverwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel\ndescription of the city and Nessus was only an implied\nconnection because they are both cities on the same planet\nor coincidentally at the same place.\n\n*~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one)\nattested that although Dionysus as the \"newest\" of the\nOlympians, he was actually much older...maybe the oldest of\nthe gods.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nMy only concern here is: why the past” “How did they get there if they\nleft at Typhon's time”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They got there with the help of the Neighbors. They got there with the help\nof the Heirogrammates. Any number of ways, intentional and unintentional." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? Obviously with time travel there could be past or present, but why would\nthe past be any easier than the future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, personally, I think the hybridization of the sentient and non-sentient\nlife (if true) is referred to only in the the vaguest possible terms. In\norder to overcome just ONE of the major obstacles in the Green Urth theory,\nI have to accept the Hybrid theory whole. Strategically, I'd like a little\nmore wiggle room. I'd like to be able to consider the Green Urth theory\nseparate from the Hybird theory. Putting the Neighbors and Inhumi in the\ndistant past allows that.\n\nQ: \"Where are the Neighbors in Severian's time?\"\nA: They are every tree he encounters because the Neighbors are away in\ndream-travel where most or all have died, leaving soulless trees that\ncontinue to reproduce.\n\nQ: How did the wildlife of Blue become so alien?\nA: Because the evolved on Verthandi in the very distant past before it lost\nits atmosphere.\n\nA major problem with Green being the future Urth is \"how far in the future\"?\nMore than 3000 years after Typhon, I'd say, for it to have been later than\nthe end of Urth of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would he go forward in time when he's thinking about Green before the\nevil of the inhumi and winds up on Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Rigiglio is thinking of Nessus and the places are the same. From the\nposition of the travelers, Nessus is in their relative past. Are they going\nforward in Time or back? It's no harder than going back. If Green is Urth,\nthen for the Rajan to meet Severian, he has to be traveling back in time or\nforward in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It makes no more sense at best and still has all the same problems as the\nGreen is future urth, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It totally eliminates one of the obstacles to the Green Urth theory without\nthe *need* for a hybidization theory “which...\n1) you are not claiming Wolfe has confirmed.\n\n2) Is just a really big walnut to swallow whole.\n\n3) Could still be true even if Green is in Urth's past.\n\nOn the other hand, the Ancient Green Urth theory...\n\n1) Feeds into the extreme archeology theories of ancient human capabilities\nand civilization to which Wolfe is quite inclined.\n\n2) Provides narrative rationale (rather than merely thematic ones) for the\nDionysus references." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[...]\n\nThe man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like\na familiar figure, doesn't he” “Then again, the blue glow and the spider\nlike fellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said\nthat it was not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the cloak looks familiar. I'm not sure about the gait. But Severian is\na Time Traveler. Why would he not be found in the distant past”\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC0948.9020800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 11:23 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI don't think Green can be Urth's past, because that would put Blue\nsomewhere in the Solar System's past, and I don't think that works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more distant \norbit?\nPerhaps Wolfe is taking the \"Capture Moon\" theory for the existence of Lune?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:36:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC077D.3010605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Q: How did the wildlife of Blue become so alien?\nA: Because the evolved on Verthandi in the very distant past before it \nlost its atmosphere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that I believe a word of this, but why is everyone talking about Verthandi? If Blue is somehow a planet of the Solar System it surely has to be Skuld. The surface gravity of Verthandi is only a third of Urth’s, and somebody would have noticed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like a \nfamiliar figure, doesn't he? Then again, the blue glow and the spider like \nfellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said that it \nwas not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the cloak looks familiar. I'm not sure about the gait. But \nSeverian is a Time Traveler. Why would he not be found in the distant past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Colourless” sounds like an odd description of a black cloak anyway. I know people go on about black and white not being colours, but Severian definitly calls fuligin a colour. To me, “colourless” implies grey or washed out, or even transparent like a plastic mac.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:38:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC0948.9020800@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2011 11:23 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI don't think Green can be Urth's past, because that would put Blue\nsomewhere in the Solar System's past, and I don't think that works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more distant \norbit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I think you are mistaking the names of Wolfe’s planets. Verthandi is Mars, Skuld is Venus, which at least has gravity similar to Earth.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:42:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n“Colourless” sounds like an odd description of a black cloak anyway. I know\npeople go on about black and white not being colours, but Severian definitly\ncalls fuligin a colour." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where? He repeatedly calls it the \"hue\" that is darker than black." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC0FEC.3030605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T17:54:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more \ndistant\norbit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNot that I believe a word of this, but why is everyone talking about \nVerthandi? If Blue is somehow a planet of the Solar System it surely \nhas to be Skuld. The surface gravity of Verthandi is only a third of \nUrth's, and somebody would have noticed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? The wakers had never been on Urth. The sleepers arrived at Blue \nonly via the Whorl and then a weightless voyage to on a lander. You \nwould have to affirm that the gravity for the Cargo on the Whorl was the \nsame as that on Urth. There is no evidence either way.\n\nAside from relative position of Blue to Green that makes Verthandi a \ncandidate for Blue in a Green Urth system, there are thematic \nconnections between Blue and Verthandi as well:\n* See Edgar Rice Burrough's \"Princess of Mars\". (The Whorl is also \nanalogous to Burrough's \"Pelucidar\".)\n* See Lan Wright's \"The Last Hope of the Earth\" (colonization of Mars, \nfloating islands of plants, hyacinths, a generation star ship)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Ah, I think you are mistaking the names of Wolfe's planets. \nVerthandi is Mars, Skuld is Venus, which at least has gravity similar \nto Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. Moving Skuld's orbit to outside of Urth's would be \nproblematic in the extreme." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC0FEC.3030605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe surface gravity of Verthandi is only a third of Urth’s, and\nsomebody would have noticed.\n\nWhy? ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed the\ndifference." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC124D.6000402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The surface gravity of Verthandi is only a third of Urth’s, and\nsomebody would have noticed.\n\nJames Wynn wrote:\nWhy? ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBecause people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed the\ndifference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only immediate movement between Blue and Green is astral. Would \nastral traveler's notice the difference? They are already lighter than \ntheir corporeal forms. Why does Hide not mention how much lighter he \nfeels in astral travel when he goes to Green and Urth?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC124D.6000402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBecause people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed the\ndifference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only immediate movement between Blue and Green is astral." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Horn physically travels to Green and dies there." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:15:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:42 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n“Colourless” sounds like an odd description of a black cloak anyway. I know\npeople go on about black and white not being colours, but Severian definitly\ncalls fuligin a colour." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where? He repeatedly calls it the \"hue\" that is darker than black." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, but still “hue” implies “colour” to me. In any case, the real question is whether “colourless” is likely to be used to describe a very noticeably dark black.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC1504.7090009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:16:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBecause people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed the\ndifference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe only immediate movement between Blue and Green is astral." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nNo, Horn physically travels to Green and dies there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not immediate. There is a long period of near weightlessness \nbetween planets. IIRC the trip itself is life-threatening for the \ntravelers. They'd have felt weak arriving a Blue as well. I admit I'd \nlike to have seen more hints of increased gravity from the author. But \nI'd like to have seen more hints of a lot of things from the author." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC0FEC.3030605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more distant \norbit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNot that I believe a word of this, but why is everyone talking about Verthandi? If Blue is somehow a > planet of the Solar System it surely has to be Skuld. The surface gravity of Verthandi is only a third of > Urth’s, and somebody would have noticed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? The wakers had never been on Urth. The sleepers arrived at Blue \nonly via the Whorl and then a weightless voyage to on a lander. You would \nhave to affirm that the gravity for the Cargo on the Whorl was the same as\n that on Urth. There is no evidence either way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is evidence. Mamelta, for one, would have noticed.\n\nAnyway, I wasn’t even thinking about the Whorl, but about those who travelled from Blue to Green. Nobody noticed a difference in the gravity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. Moving Skuld's orbit to outside of Urth's would be problematic in the extreme. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moving either planet would be problematic in the extreme. But planets could be made to pass without a collision so long as sufficient energy was available.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Whorl left after Severians encounter with Typhon in Urth then\nthat would explain the \"disaster\" they were trying to escape from.\nSurely Typhon recognized Severian as the Conciliator/New Sun and\npossibly had some knowledge of what his presence signified (the\narrival of the White Fountain and flooding of Urth) and built the\nWhorl and Mainframe so that he could live on after the flood. That\nwas the basis of my ark theory anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini\nSent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:02 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) vanished people=Hieros\n--- On Thu, 11/10/11, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can the moon be an asteroid or not? No?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose it could be described as one, especially by someone who didn’t\nknow where it originated. The definition of “asteroid” is a bit vague, but\nit’s generally thought of as a small body, too small to become a sphere due\nto its own gravitational force.\nThe largest asteroids are about 500 miles in diameter somewhat ellipsoidal ?\nthere are moves to categorise them as dwarf planets. The Moon is over 2000\nmiles in diameter and spherical. So it doesn’t really fit the picture if\nyou expect an asteroid to be somewhat irregular in shape.\nAlso, the Moon’s gravity would render hollowing it out next to impossible.\nAnd despite the Whorl being both large and of ill-defined size, it is\ndifficult to imagine that it could be as large as the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The passage of time makes it difficult to imagine that the\nlong sun whorl didn't go somehwere, unless it's not 300 but\n3000 years as the lost digit in Maytera's ruminations might\nhint at - not enough information. It seems to have\ngone somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’m guessing the intention is that it travelled for 300 years Whorl-time,\nbut due to relativistic time dilation that was about 2000 years on Urth. [A\nproblem is that Sol seems to be visible, albeit dimly, in the skies of Blue,\nindicating a distance of less than a hundred light years. Another is that\nif Typhon had that much energy at his disposal, solar dimming shouldn’t have\ntroubled him. But it’s in accordance with SF tropes, so I think we are\nprobably intended to read it so rather than nit-pick the physics. An\nalternative explanation is that the Whorl travelled at only a small fraction\nof light speed, in which case only 300 years passed on Urth also.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I always saw it as an ark, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, a generation ship in SF *is* an ark. But if the implication of “ark”\nincludes escape from a disaster, it doesn’t really work. Typhon was surely\nat the height of his powers when he had it constructed.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC1BB1.6010905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:45:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBBB2F1.6040707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 6:18 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 19:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would \nTyphon have\nsent the Whorl to Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing that may be being overlooked is that the Whorl goes on in \nits voyage after colonising Blue/Green. So it is not the case that the \nWhorl was meant to colonise one particular system. So it is not the \ncase that that system 'must' be this or that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right. Of course, its first target must have been set on Urth, \nwhether it changed or not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320950817.98516.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T18:46:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC1504.7090009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/10/11, James Wynn wrote:\n? I admit I'd like to have seen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "more hints of increased gravity from the author. But I'd\nlike to have seen more hints of a lot of things from the\nauthor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "amen. no, no independent comfirmation of hybridization. I just think the theme of homecoming being impossible with time is prevalent in the text (the golden time with Seawrack, things are never the same as they were from Horn's musings in OBW) (horn can't return, silk can't go back with Hy, men can't return even in the future of their world) only the comment, \"I like the spruce and the staff, too.\" from Gene. That's it. \n\nBut yes, the hybridization is super key for instant speciation and MY understanding of how Green can be Urth, without it and the weird properties of trees \"I got nothing\". (Green feels more young than new, but jungle as eden is somewhat interesting)\n\nI wanted to thank everyone for this last round of analysis, James, Gerry, Lee, everyone, for finally having some discussion without the inherent \"you are using those quotes wrong\" hostility this topic always summons. Thanks, I appreciate it.\n\nMarc" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T20:02:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<1320950817.98516.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night\nHas flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:\nAnd Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light.\n\nMarc Aramini: Just wanted to ask a question about this cosmologically. \nWhat is moving in this quote? How does it apply to what's going on in Urth \nof the New Sun? Is the noose simply an effluvium or arreola of light around \nsomething stationary? Or is it grabbing hold of the turret? Which stone has \nbeen flung?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I've always presumed it is the Venus, the Morning star." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be. The planets move faster in the sky than the stars. Of course\nthe \"stone\" that really \"puts the stars to flight\" is the sun, and it moves\nin the sky faster still.\n \nI think The Hunter is Orion and the Noose of Light is the Big Dipper. The Sultan's\nTower is just that. A tall structure in Omar Kayaam's field of vision as he gazes\nat the star-spangled early dawn sky. Also could be an astronomy connection. Kayaam\nwas an astronomer as well as poet and the Persians used their towers for that purpose. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC3250.3080700@quicksilver.net.nz>", "from": { "name": "Peter Metcalfe", "address": "metcalph at quicksilver.net.nz" }, "date": "2011-11-10T20:21:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 7:45 AM, urth-request at lists.urth.net wrote:\nBecause people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed the \ndifference [in the lower gravity]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies as I don't have the In Green's Jungles at hand.\n\n1) The strange figure walking like a bird. Have a look at the Apollo \nAstronauts moving on the moon. Rather than walk, they perform a series \nof brief jumps.\n\n2) The Narrator of In Green's Jungles mentions how climbing some \nheights was expected despite their height.\n\n--Peter Metcalfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2C33ADFA45E94EEDB23F5E27B16BCAFF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T20:42:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think The Hunter is Orion and the Noose of Light is the Big Dipper. The Sultan's\nTower is just that. A tall structure in Omar Kayaam's field of vision as he gazes\nat the star-spangled early dawn sky. Also could be an astronomy connection. Kayaam\nwas an astronomer as well as poet and the Persians used their towers for that purpose. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that the Hunter of the East is more likely to be the dawn Sun, which is in the East (Orion can be in different directions). Besides, the stars have been put to flight!\n\nThe noose of light around the turret would then be the dawn sunshine lighting the top part of a tower (before the sun rises further and lights the rest). Of course the noose image is necessary to making the Sun a hunter; the two metaphors only work together.\n\nI agree with James that the stone is Venus in the original, though I think Wolfe is referring to the White Fountain.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC388D.6060309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T20:48:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night\n Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:\n And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\n The Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI think The Hunter is Orion and the Noose of Light is the Big Dipper. The Sultan's\nTower is just that. A tall structure in Omar Kayaam's field of vision as he gazes\nat the star-spangled early dawn sky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are right that the Hunter is Orion. The Noose could be the \nHesperides, the constellation of stars (often numbered 5, 7, or more) \njust to the right of Orion's shield or staff. Often these are associated \nas Orion's net. If they are the noose, then you could well be right the \nthe Sultan's Tower could be a physical structure against the night sky.\n\nOr the noose could be the Milky Way that encircles the Earth like the \nMidgard Serpent. The Milky Way is held by Orion's upraised arm. If that \nis the noose, then the Sultan's turret is the night sky itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC3B77.6000107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<2C33ADFA45E94EEDB23F5E27B16BCAFF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 3:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think The Hunter is Orion and the Noose of Light is the Big \nDipper. The Sultan's\nTower is just that. A tall structure in Omar Kayaam's field of \nvision as he gazes\nat the star-spangled early dawn sky. Also could be an astronomy \nconnection. Kayaam\nwas an astronomer as well as poet and the Persians used their towers \nfor that purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that the Hunter of the East is more likely to be the \ndawn Sun, which is in the East (Orion can be in different \ndirections). Besides, the stars have been put to flight!\nThe noose of light around the turret would then be the dawn sunshine \nlighting the top part of a tower (before the sun rises further and \nlights the rest). Of course the noose image is necessary to making \nthe Sun a hunter; the two metaphors only work together.\nI agree with James that the stone is Venus in the original, though I \nthink Wolfe is referring to the White Fountain.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC3BAE.2090003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<2C33ADFA45E94EEDB23F5E27B16BCAFF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 2:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe noose of light around the turret would then be the dawn sunshine \nlighting the top part of a tower (before the sun rises further and \nlights the rest). Of course the noose image is necessary to making \nthe Sun a hunter; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the sun \nrising behind the sultan's tower.\nThe Hunter might still be Orion, which at the time the poem is written \nis \"behind\" the path of the sun, still below the eastern horizon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50179E4A-4F55-4CBB-8687-A91956E5E967@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:04:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/10, ?s 15:37, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, a generation ship in SF *is* an ark. But if the implication \nof “ark” includes escape from a disaster, it doesn’t really \nwork. Typhon was surely at the height of his powers when he had it \nconstructed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What if it was more like a zoo, with many potentials but not a well \ndefined purpose at the beginning?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8619A7FA-CC4C-4F6F-927E-826B051B8F4E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/10, ?s 17:38, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn\n\nOn 11/10/2011 11:23 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think Green can be Urth's past, because that would put \nBlue\nsomewhere in the Solar System's past, and I don't think that \nworks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more \ndistant\norbit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, I think you are mistaking the names of Wolfe’s planets. Verthan \ndi is Mars, Skuld is Venus, which at least has gravity similar to Ea \nrth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gravity and size and temperature and was covered by jungles in early sf.\n\nBut what if the Urth is Venus, not Earth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC4062.3070003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC388D.6060309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 3:48 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe Noose could be the Hesperides, the constellation of stars (often \nnumbered 5, 7, or more) just to the right of Orion's shield or staff. \nOften these are associated as Orion's net." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never knew that. Nice work!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6C13326D-A339-4CF9-964B-8FA6D5F1C3FD@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC0FEC.3030605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/10, ?s 17:54, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " What if Blue is Verthandi and it has over time moved to a more \ndistant\norbit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNot that I believe a word of this, but why is everyone talking \nabout Verthandi? If Blue is somehow a planet of the Solar System \nit surely has to be Skuld. The surface gravity of Verthandi is \nonly a third of Urth’s, and somebody would have noticed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? The wakers had never been on Urth. The sleepers arrived at Blue \nonly via the Whorl and then a weightless voyage to on a lander. You \nwould have to affirm that the gravity for the Cargo on the Whorl was \nthe same as that on Urth. There is no evidence either way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Such a difference in gravity has biological implications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from relative position of Blue to Green that makes Verthandi a \ncandidate for Blue in a Green Urth system, there are thematic \nconnections between Blue and Verthandi as well:\n* See Edgar Rice Burrough's \"Princess of Mars\". (The Whorl is also \nanalogous to Burrough's \"Pelucidar\".)\n* See Lan Wright's \"The Last Hope of the Earth\" (colonization of \nMars, floating islands of plants, hyacinths, a generation star ship)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Ah, I think you are mistaking the names of Wolfe’s planets. Vert \nhandi is Mars, Skuld is Venus, which at least has gravity similar \nto Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. Moving Skuld's orbit to outside of Urth's would be \nproblematic in the extreme.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:26:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<6C13326D-A339-4CF9-964B-8FA6D5F1C3FD@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: You are right that the Hunter is Orion. The Noose could be the \nHesperides, the constellation of stars (often numbered 5, 7, or more) \njust to the right of Orion's shield or staff. Often these are associated \nas Orion's net. If they are the noose, then you could well be right the \nthe Sultan's Tower could be a physical structure against the night sky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. David came up with a scenario which would allow the Big Dipper to come\ninto play but perhaps Kayaam meant the stars of Orion's bow or perhaps \nTaurus as the noose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the sun \nrising behind the sultan's tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be, I guess. The sun doesn't seem very noose-like to me, while lines\nof stars do. I guess sun=noose seems more likely if you are locked into Venus \nbeing the stone which morning flings to chase away the stars. while I still \nthink that sounds more like the sun.\n \nAs a poet as well as astronomer, wouldn't Kayaam be more likely to think of\nVenus as drawing the stars to her? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<828951F9-7E57-4239-ABAB-FBCF1F80F217@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:28:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC1BB1.6010905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/10, ?s 18:45, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 6:18 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 19:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would \nTyphon have\nsent the Whorl to Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One thing that may be being overlooked is that the Whorl goes on in \nits voyage after colonising Blue/Green. So it is not the case that \nthe Whorl was meant to colonise one particular system. So it is not \nthe case that that system 'must' be this or that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's right. Of course, its first target must have been set on \nUrth, whether it changed or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But notice the crew seem to be about the most technically advanced \nhumans left and to know to make decisions by themselves. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "athornton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 10, 2011, at 3:26 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: You are right that the Hunter is Orion. The Noose could be the \nHesperides, the constellation of stars (often numbered 5, 7, or more) \njust to the right of Orion's shield or staff. Often these are associated \nas Orion's net. If they are the noose, then you could well be right the \nthe Sultan's Tower could be a physical structure against the night sky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. David came up with a scenario which would allow the Big Dipper to come\ninto play but perhaps Kayaam meant the stars of Orion's bow or perhaps \nTaurus as the noose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the sun \nrising behind the sultan's tower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be, I guess. The sun doesn't seem very noose-like to me, while lines\nof stars do. I guess sun=noose seems more likely if you are locked into Venus \nbeing the stone which morning flings to chase away the stars. while I still \nthink that sounds more like the sun.\n\nAs a poet as well as astronomer, wouldn't Kayaam be more likely to think of\nVenus as drawing the stars to her? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Captured in a noose of light\" -- imagine the sun rising directly behind the tower.\n\nI also had never read this and thought about the Slingers' Song. But now that I see the stars being scattered like birds from a flung stone, I am.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC42B7.9090405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:31:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC3BAE.2090003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:01 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/10/2011 2:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The noose of light around the turret would then be the dawn sunshine \nlighting the top part of a tower (before the sun rises further and \nlights the rest). Of course the noose image is necessary to making \nthe Sun a hunter; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the \nsun rising behind the sultan's tower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Hunter might still be Orion, which at the time the poem is written \nis \"behind\" the path of the sun, still below the eastern horizon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think this? Could Orion not be briefly visible? Could the sun \nbe rising right into Orion and the tower standing before his net?\n\nI haven't worked this out at all, but it always seemed to me that the \npoet observes a specific night sky, with Orion, followed immediately by \na dawn sky. And the implication to Wolfe must be the sweeping away of \nmyths by the coming of Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:32:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC3250.3080700@quicksilver.net.nz>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/10, ?s 20:21, Peter Metcalfe \n escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 7:45 AM, urth-request at lists.urth.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because people move between Blue and Green and would have noticed \nthe difference [in the lower gravity]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apologies as I don't have the In Green's Jungles at hand.\n\n1) The strange figure walking like a bird. Have a look at the \nApollo Astronauts moving on the moon. Rather than walk, they \nperform a series of brief jumps.\n\n2) The Narrator of In Green's Jungles mentions how climbing some \nheights was expected despite their height." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that ties better with Venus having a little less gravity than \nEarth, rather than necessarily Mars. Mars's difference is so big I \ndon't think people could withstand it prolongedly with no problem. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC42F1.40107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<828951F9-7E57-4239-ABAB-FBCF1F80F217@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:28 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/11/10, ?s 18:45, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2011 6:18 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (09-11-2011 19:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "When I had first read SS, this theory drove me crazy. Why would \nTyphon have\nsent the Whorl to Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One thing that may be being overlooked is that the Whorl goes on in \nits voyage after colonising Blue/Green. So it is not the case that \nthe Whorl was meant to colonise one particular system. So it is not \nthe case that that system 'must' be this or that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's right. Of course, its first target must have been set on Urth, \nwhether it changed or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But notice the crew seem to be about the most technically advanced \nhumans left and to know to make decisions by themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that they do what Mainframe tells them. Sciathan is quite clear \non this point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<84C2693D0E2D477385D09F6D6B2D58D6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:44:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: entonio at gmail.com \n1) The strange figure walking like a bird. Have a look at the \nApollo Astronauts moving on the moon. Rather than walk, they \nperform a series of brief jumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) The Narrator of In Green's Jungles mentions how climbing some \nheights was expected despite their height." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But that ties better with Venus having a little less gravity than \nEarth, rather than necessarily Mars. Mars's difference is so big I \ndon't think people could withstand it prolongedly with no problem. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess we could cope with less gravity than we’re used to, and any decent amount of gravity would probably be enough to prevent the more serious medical issues associated with weightlessness. \nBut we’d *notice* a change. It’s not just our own weight — arrows would fly differently (and there are hunters on Green). Objects would fall differently. If you ever played ball games you couldn’t miss it.\n- Gerry Wuinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC4657.8090401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC42B7.9090405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:01 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the \nsun rising behind the sultan's tower. The Hunter might still be \nOrion, which at the time the poem is written is \"behind\" the path of \nthe sun, still below the eastern horizon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhy do you think this? Could Orion not be briefly visible? Could the \nsun be rising right into Orion and the tower standing before his net? \nI haven't worked this out at all, but it always seemed to me that the \npoet observes a specific night sky, with Orion, followed immediately \nby a dawn sky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Orion is \"in front\" of the sun (in the night sky). Then he would have \nto be well in front to be visible....and then he wouldn't be \"the Hunter \nof the East\". He'd be in the West.\n\nI am imagining a Summer morning. The sun has not yet risen but a tower \non the horizon is in a circle of dawn. It is the day of the year when \nthe Sun is located directly over the Milky Way, right above Orion's \n\"head\". In this case, the Hesperides as the \"noose\" still works since \nthey might well be located directly behind the tower--even though you'd \nhave to just *know* they are there and what they are.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9A0F063C618941A08B499B13E8233CD3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:55:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the sun \nrising behind the sultan's tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s not what I’m suggesting, exactly.\nImagine dawn in a city of towers of various heights, with a flat desert to the east. The sun initially lights the tops of the tallest towers, with the light slowly creeping downwards as it rises.\nI am imagining the light around the top of such a tower (the turret) as a noose. And the hunter who casts that noose is the Sun. He is the Hunter of the East, as is appropriate for the rising sun. Orion can be in the east, but in other directions too. I don’t think Orion has any special associations with the east.\nAlso, the Stone has set the stars to flight. So what’s Orion doing in this picture? He should be running away with the other stars, not hunting!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be, I guess. The sun doesn't seem very noose-like to me, while lines\nof stars do. I guess sun=noose seems more likely if you are locked into Venus \nbeing the stone which morning flings to chase away the stars. while I still \nthink that sounds more like the sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. But then the Sun couldn’t be the Hunter. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a poet as well as astronomer, wouldn't Kayaam be more likely to think of\nVenus as drawing the stars to her? ;- ) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s why he was a poet — he made new metaphors instead of recycling old ones. Something he has in common with Gene Wolfe!\n\nGerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC48C1.5090800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T21:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<84C2693D0E2D477385D09F6D6B2D58D6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 3:44 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nBut we’d *notice* a change. It’s not just our own weight — arrows \nwould fly differently (and there are hunters on Green). Objects would \nfall differently. If you ever played ball games you couldn’t miss it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But after weeks of weightlessness it might not be the overriding \nattribute of the place. It's something you have to work out, but you \nmight not discuss it in your diary that you are writing after your body \nhas been destroyed, you've taken over the body of someone in spaceship \nin orbit, and spent sometime on a third planet. Are there other wildlife \non Green other than the Neighbors and Inhumi. I don't recall any mention \nof them.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC4975.8050707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T22:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<9A0F063C618941A08B499B13E8233CD3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2011 3:55 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAs a poet as well as astronomer, wouldn't Kayaam be more likely to \nthink of\nVenus as drawing the stars to her? ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That’s why he was a poet — he made new metaphors instead of recycling \nold ones. Something he has in common with Gene Wolfe!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least we agree he uses metaphors." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T22:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC48C1.5090800@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2011 3:44 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nBut we’d *notice* a change. It’s not just our own weight — arrows \nwould fly differently (and there are hunters on Green). Objects would \nfall differently. If you ever played ball games you couldn’t miss it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. But after weeks of weightlessness it might not be the overriding \nattribute of the place. It's something you have to work out, but you \nmight not discuss it in your diary that you are writing after your body \nhas been destroyed, you've taken over the body of someone in spaceship \nin orbit, and spent sometime on a third planet. Are there other wildlife \non Green other than the Neighbors and Inhumi. I don't recall any mention \nof them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn landed on Green with a whole bunch of people from Blue. As I said, somebody would have noticed.\nAnd while Mamelta was a bit out of it during her time with Silk, she was fresh from Urth, at least in her own mind. If the Whorl had gravity much less than Urth-standard, she’d surely have noticed.\nIt’s possible to argue around these things, but surely they make an initially unlikely hypothesis recede further in the direction of impossibility?\nCreatures:\n?The next day, and the next, I made my way back toward the City of the Inhumi. \nIt will seem vainglorious when I say that I lived by eating the creatures that \nattacked me, yet it was so. Their flesh was foul, for they were predators and \ncarrion eaters; but I lived upon it and upon half-eaten fruits and nuts dropped \nby the great green spiders.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC4F17.6080205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T22:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:07 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAnd while Mamelta was a bit out of it during her time with Silk, she \nwas fresh from Urth, at least in her own mind. If the Whorl had \ngravity much less than Urth-standard, she'd surely have noticed.\nIt's possible to argue around these things, but surely they make an \ninitially unlikely hypothesis recede further in the direction of \nimpossibility?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I would think the fact that she could stand at all after 300 \nyears of immobility would (if anything) suggest that the gravity on the \nWhorl was much lighter than Urth's. If one has decided to argue against \nan explanation, a \"failure-to-mention-something\" will always be close at \nhand. It is not the lowest level of literary criticism, but it is below \nthe median. It's surely the least most boring." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T22:34:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC4F17.6080205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Could be. But then the Sun couldn’t be the Hunter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIn the sky, the sun isn't the Hunter. Orion is the Hunter, a mythological fact \n\nof which Omar Kayaam was as aware as most of us here. The constellation rises\n\nin the east like all others. Persians were obsessed with astrology. Calling\n\nthe sun The Hunter would be like calling Orion a golden orb. They took names\n\nseriously back then, as does WOlfe.\n\n \n\nBut that doesn't really matter here, does it? What matters is what Wolfe\n\nwas thinking when he wrote those lines. And Wolfe doesn't mention the Hunter \n\nor the noose. They aren't in the text and are thus not relevant ;- ).\n\n \n\nIn the House of Apu-Punchau:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Barbatus: In a way it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one you quoted to me?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His wife sang, \"Awake, for the Morning in the Bowl of Night, has flung" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Stone that puts Stars to Flight\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian: \"Yes\", I said, \"I understand\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWolfe uses the quote in reference to Severian, The New Sun; Apu Punchau, \n\nthe sun god. The stone is the sun. Severian is a Sun god in a Stone Town\n\nWhy would Venus be relevant in those words in this context? (perhaps David has an idea....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I haven't worked this out at all, but it always seemed to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "me that the poet observes a specific night sky, with Orion, followed immediately by \na dawn sky. And the implication to Wolfe must be the sweeping away of \nmyths by the coming of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes. I'm not sure but you might be on the right track and perhaps WOlfe is on that \n\nsame track. The last star to be swept away by the sun each morning is the Morning Star \n\nwhich is an epithet for Lucifer. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T22:35:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<50179E4A-4F55-4CBB-8687-A91956E5E967@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the presence of the breeding program reveals that the Whorl was\nmore than a zoo. It seems more like an insurance policy of Typhons\nthat no he always have a kingdom and a people to rule. Perhaps the\ngenetic experiments were a way to create a perfect host body ( Ive\nsaid before that I think Piaton/Typhon is not his original body). I\nonce thought that maybe they were part of a plan to build an army and\nTyphons goal was to conquer the Blue/Green system and the Nieghbors.\nOf course he could couldnt go through his plans because of the\ninfighting of his own family and the Inhumi that already accomplished\nit. This would fit with Tphon not knowing of the Inhumi confirmed by\nWolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/11, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/11/10, ?s 15:37, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, a generation ship in SF *is* an ark. But if the implication\nof “ark” includes escape from a disaster, it doesn’t really\nwork. Typhon was surely at the height of his powers when he had it\nconstructed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What if it was more like a zoo, with many potentials but not a well\ndefined purpose at the beginning?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC57AB.8080403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-10T23:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC4657.8090401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2011 4:01 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thinking about it, I think Gerry is the more right. The noose is the \nsun rising behind the sultan's tower. The Hunter might still be \nOrion, which at the time the poem is written is \"behind\" the path of \nthe sun, still below the eastern horizon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhy do you think this? Could Orion not be briefly visible? Could the \nsun be rising right into Orion and the tower standing before his net? \nI haven't worked this out at all, but it always seemed to me that the \npoet observes a specific night sky, with Orion, followed immediately \nby a dawn sky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Orion is \"in front\" of the sun (in the night sky). Then he would \nhave to be well in front to be visible....and then he wouldn't be \"the \nHunter of the East\". He'd be in the West.\n\nI am imagining a Summer morning. The sun has not yet risen but a tower \non the horizon is in a circle of dawn. It is the day of the year when \nthe Sun is located directly over the Milky Way, right above Orion's \n\"head\". In this case, the Hesperides as the \"noose\" still works since \nthey might well be located directly behind the tower--even though \nyou'd have to just *know* they are there and what they are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm ... Orion would have to rise in the east ahead of the sun. I don;t \nsee why not.\n\nAt any rate, I can see the sun's light as a kind of noose as well, \nlighting the entire horizon in a very short time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC662A.6090504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T00:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC4F17.6080205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 5:24 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/10/2011 4:07 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And while Mamelta was a bit out of it during her time with Silk, she \nwas fresh from Urth, at least in her own mind. If the Whorl had \ngravity much less than Urth-standard, she’d surely have noticed.\nIt’s possible to argue around these things, but surely they make an \ninitially unlikely hypothesis recede further in the direction of \nimpossibility?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I would think the fact that she could stand at all after 300 \nyears of immobility would (if anything) suggest that the gravity on \nthe Whorl was much lighter than Urth's. If one has decided to argue \nagainst an explanation, a \"failure-to-mention-something\" will always \nbe close at hand. It is not the lowest level of literary criticism, \nbut it is below the median. It's surely the least most boring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Mamelta know where she was? I don't recall. At any rate, low gravity \nin space hardly merits a remark from a member of a spacefaring species. \nIt's to be expected, and pretty much demonstrated by the existence of \nFliers and pterotroopers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC67A0.7000401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T00:09:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 5:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nWolfe uses the quote in reference to Severian, The New Sun; Apu Punchau,\n\nthe sun god. The stone is the sun. Severian is a Sun god in a Stone Town\n\nWhy would Venus be relevant in those words in this context? (perhaps David has an idea....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: I haven't worked this out at all, but it always seemed to\nme that the poet observes a specific night sky, with Orion, followed immediately by\na dawn sky. And the implication to Wolfe must be the sweeping away of\nmyths by the coming of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I'm not sure but you might be on the right track and perhaps WOlfe is on that\n\nsame track. The last star to be swept away by the sun each morning is the Morning Star\n\nwhich is an epithet for Lucifer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Venus is the stone, that last star which precedes the sun. I have no \nidea really, but if Venus is love and God is love---facts which do not \nescape the author of Long Sun---well, then ....\n\nI wouldn't put much weight on Lucifer's later identity as Satan though, \njust its meaning of Light-Bringer (Sun-Bringer?). And there you go." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T02:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC67A0.7000401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Awake, for the Morning in the Bowl of Night, has flung\n\nthe Stone that puts Stars to Flight\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Venus is the stone, that last star which precedes the sun. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no idea really, but if Venus is love and God is love---facts which " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "do not escape the author of Long Sun---well, then ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAw, c'mon, 'fess up! This is bending over backwards and twisting sideways\n\nto avoid the unavoidable conclusion that Wolfe means the passage to refer\n\nto the sun like so many other sun references in BotNS (not BotNV).\n\n \n\nI'm not arguing (at this time) that Kayaam meant the sun in his stanza. I'm\n\narguing that WOlfe interprets it as the sun and that's why Severian/Apu Punchau\n\ngets that passage sung to him at this crucial time. He needs to be reminded\n\nhe is the sun (which is the source of his power and his salvation from the\n\ndepths of human history).\n\n \n\nAnyway, Wolfe has specifically chastised his readers to not fall into the \n\npop culture trap of calling Venus a goddess of love. \"She was a sex goddess\".\n\nGod is sex? Not sure that works as well. (and Kypris was the consort of Pas\n\nnot The outsider)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't put much weight on Lucifer's later identity as Satan though, \njust its meaning of Light-Bringer (Sun-Bringer?). And there you go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI certainly wouldn't! And that's because a certain David Stockhoff made the\n\nimportance of the distinction clear in this very forum A number of months back. \n\nAnd I appreciate that!\n\n \n\nSince you suggested the possibility, I did a quick Lucifer/sun search and found \n\ncounter-evidence. The light Lucifer brings is associated with starlight. Light\n\namidst darkness, outshining even Jupiter and Saturn (an apt myth metaphor) but \n\nonly until the sun arrives (an apt Christian metaphor) then it/he is vastly\n\noutshone.\n\n \n\n \n\nKypris/Venus and Lucifer DayStar are surely referenced in other parts of the Sun Story\n\nbut not here, I think, where the story is so intensely focused on Severian as a\n\nSun god. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBC9E2D.8020506@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T04:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 8:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques: Btw, why is it that I keep imagining Blue with lots of ocean and\nGreen with very little? It's quite doubtful Green's jungles could be there without\noceans around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Because in Blue most of the people we meet live by the sea, and in Green they\nall live in the jungle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes! I think this is on the proper path to understanding. Planetologically, Green might be\nexpected to have oceans. But Green is not a planet. It is a literary creation. Larry Niven\nor some other hard SF writer would have mentioned oceans to keep the science believable. But\nWolfe does not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Larry Niven is not a particularly hard SF writer, and his planetary and \nbiological sciences are a fairly weak area. He does have at least two \nmarginally habitable planets with no oceans, and at least one habitable \nplanet whose ocean is covered in green algae." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBCA219.6000503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T04:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 9:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\"Awake, for the Morning in the Bowl of Night, has flung\n\nthe Stone that puts Stars to Flight\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Venus is the stone, that last star which precedes the sun. I have no idea really, but if Venus is love and God is love---facts which do not escape the author of Long Sun---well, then ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aw, c'mon, 'fess up! This is bending over backwards and twisting sideways\n\nto avoid the unavoidable conclusion that Wolfe means the passage to refer\n\nto the sun like so many other sun references in BotNS (not BotNV)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly the sun approaches. But his herald is Skuld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not arguing (at this time) that Kayaam meant the sun in his stanza. I'm\n\narguing that WOlfe interprets it as the sun and that's why Severian/Apu Punchau\n\ngets that passage sung to him at this crucial time. He needs to be reminded\n\nhe is the sun (which is the source of his power and his salvation from the\n\ndepths of human history).\n\n\n\nAnyway, Wolfe has specifically chastised his readers to not fall into the\n\npop culture trap of calling Venus a goddess of love. \"She was a sex goddess\".\n\nGod is sex? Not sure that works as well. (and Kypris was the consort of Pas\n\nnot The outsider)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's probably correct. I withdraw the suggestion.\n\nThe relation to BotNS is tangential, of course." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBCA8F9.30206@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T04:47:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2011 8:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI'm not arguing (at this time) that Kayaam meant the sun in his stanza. I'm\n\narguing that WOlfe interprets it as the sun and that's why Severian/Apu Punchau\n\ngets that passage sung to him at this crucial time. He needs to be reminded\n\nhe is the sun (which is the source of his power and his salvation from the\n\ndepths of human history).\n\n\n\nAnyway, Wolfe has specifically chastised his readers to not fall into the\n\npop culture trap of calling Venus a goddess of love. \"She was a sex goddess\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if this is also a hint about bowdlerized translations from the \nVictorian era. Some here are apparently unaware of the degree that \nKhayam's verses were admittedly transmogrified by Edward FitzGerald. The \nquote Wolfe chose is drawn from the first edition of 1859, but the same \ntranslator had in his fifth edition of 1889,\n\n\nWake! For the Sun, who scatter'd into flight\nThe Stars before him from the Field of Night,\nDrives Night along with them from Heav'n, and strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret with a Shaft of Light.\n\nTo compare:\n\nAwake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night\nHas flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:\nAnd Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light.\n\n\nOf course, Apollo is a hunter and was god of the sun along with arts and \nlyres and pythons, and probably more prominent in the mind of a \nclassically educated Englishman than a muslim Afganistani." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<536AD111891946F5AF133F13CC0ABEDF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T12:59:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBC4F17.6080205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/10/2011 4:07 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: \n And while Mamelta was a bit out of it during her time with Silk, she was fresh from Urth, at least in her own mind. If the Whorl had gravity much less than Urth-standard, she’d surely have noticed.\n It’s possible to argue around these things, but surely they make an initially unlikely hypothesis recede further in the direction of impossibility?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I would think the fact that she could stand at all after 300 years of immobility \nwould (if anything) suggest that the gravity on the Whorl was much lighter than Urth's. \nIf one has decided to argue against an explanation, a \"failure-to-mention-something\" \nwill always be close at hand. It is not the lowest level of literary criticism, but it is \nbelow the median. It's surely the least most boring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like I said, it’s possible to argue around it. You can ignore the fact that lots of people travelled from Blue to Green and nobody mentioned that their weight tripled, you can ignore the fact that Mamelta and Marble (and Quetzal?) don’t mention it, you can ignore the fact that soldiers talking about artillery don’t mention it, and that the lander monitor doesn’t mention it when asking them to choose a destination. You have to desperately ignore that Gene Wolfe clearly doesn’t intend to mention it despite dozens of opportunities.\n\nAnd then again, I think it’s a little bit unfair to criticise me for using negative evidence to evaluate a theory that doesn’t really have any positive evidence and is pretty much impossible to boot.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<06D528FF886241E4A6C0E2DB9A4EB6E5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T13:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Could be. But then the Sun couldn’t be the Hunter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the sky, the sun isn't the Hunter. Orion is the Hunter, a mythological fact \nof which Omar Kayaam was as aware as most of us here. The constellation rises\nin the east like all others. Persians were obsessed with astrology. Calling\nthe sun The Hunter would be like calling Orion a golden orb. They took names\nseriously back then, as does WOlfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be visible. And Orion doesn’t place a noose of light around turrets. The Sun does these things. Give Omar Khayyam or his translators a bit of credit for imagination and logic (Wolfe too)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His wife sang, \"Awake, for the Morning in the Bowl of Night, has flung\nthe Stone that puts Stars to Flight\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian: \"Yes\", I said, \"I understand\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe uses the quote in reference to Severian, The New Sun; Apu Punchau, \nthe sun god. The stone is the sun. Severian is a Sun god in a Stone Town\nWhy would Venus be relevant in those words in this context? (perhaps David has an idea....)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said that the original reference in the poem is probably to Venus. Here I think the main reference is the White Fountain, which will put to flight the daytime stars of Urth, as the cankered Old Sun fails to. Of course it’s hard to disentangle references to Severian, the New Sun, and the White Fountain. I think of Severian as Morning (Head of Day), having flung the stone (the White Fountain).\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T14:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<06D528FF886241E4A6C0E2DB9A4EB6E5@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Larry Niven is not a particularly hard SF writer, and his planetary " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and biological sciences are a fairly weak area. He does have at least two \nmarginally habitable planets with no oceans, and at least one habitable \nplanet whose ocean is covered in green algae." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThanks Jeff. I appreciate the feedback and accept any hard science SF author as a\n\nsubstitute for Niven in my comparison. I guess I was trying to think of a story\n\nwhere the scientific details of creating a planet are more important than the plot\n\nand Ringworld came to mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "quote Wolfe chose is drawn from the first edition of 1859, but the same \ntranslator had in his fifth edition of 1889," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wake! For the Sun, who scatter'd into flight\nThe Stars before him from the Field of Night,\nDrives Night along with them from Heav'n, and strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret with a Shaft of Light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGood work, Jeff. I issue a challenge to those who still interpret \"the Stone\" as\n\nVenus to find a published interpretation of Kayaam which matches. I looked and didn't \n\nfind any but perhaps there are some to be found." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, Apollo is a hunter and was god of the sun along with arts and \nlyres and pythons, and probably more prominent in the mind of a \nclassically educated Englishman than a muslim Afganistani." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThis is off the mark. I did an Apollo+hunter search, just to check, and found mostly \n\nstatements to the contrary, \"Apollo is not a hunter\". That is mostly to make contrast\n\nwith his twin sister, Artemis/Diana the huntress and moon goddess. If \"The Huntress\"\n\nhad been used I think there would be a consensus that the moon was being referenced.\n\n(FWIW, Orion was the chaste hunting companion of Artemis and was killed via the jealous\n\ntreachery of a bisexual Apollo).\n\n \n\nAnyway, as you suggest, Jeff, Apollo was a god of the arts and learning and refinement\n\nin contrast to his rough, woodsy sister. The urbane/rustic, sun/moon, light/dark, \n\nmale/female, patrifocal/matrifocal, Christian/pagan dichotomy persists to this day.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48A2B85DF7D54B6EA8070CC7AC6DAA64@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T14:33:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good work, Jeff. I issue a challenge to those who still interpret \"the Stone\" as\nVenus to find a published interpretation of Kayaam which matches. I looked and didn't \nfind any but perhaps there are some to be found." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Erm... how about the one quoted by Wolfe?\n\nVenus fits well enough here, and since the Hunter of the East is the Sun, the stone must be something else.\n\nOf course, the stone may not be intended to be visible. After all, if you throw a stone into a pool that reflects stars, the stars will vanish but so will the stone (as will the White Fountain, incidentally, when it annihilates the black hole at the heart of the sun). So the stone need not necessarily be any celestial body as such — it could be that the important thing is that a stone has been flung. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD42CD.8060803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T15:44:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "<06D528FF886241E4A6C0E2DB9A4EB6E5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 8:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Could be. But then the Sun couldn’t be the Hunter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the sky, the sun isn't the Hunter. Orion is the Hunter, a \nmythological fact\nof which Omar Kayaam was as aware as most of us here. The \nconstellation rises\nin the east like all others. Persians were obsessed with astrology. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Calling\nthe sun The Hunter would be like calling Orion a golden orb. They \ntook names\nseriously back then, as does WOlfe.\nSure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be \nvisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at dawn.\n\nBEFORE dawn." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD4529.4030907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T15:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 9:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "quote Wolfe chose is drawn from the first edition of 1859, but the same\ntranslator had in his fifth edition of 1889," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wake! For the Sun, who scatter'd into flight\nThe Stars before him from the Field of Night,\nDrives Night along with them from Heav'n, and strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret with a Shaft of Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good work, Jeff. I issue a challenge to those who still interpret \"the Stone\" as\n\nVenus to find a published interpretation of Kayaam which matches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?\n\nNote that the later version uses a military metaphor rather than \nhunting. It's much simpler and more direct: The Sun rises triumphant in \nbattle, and maybe a little phallic too.\n\nSince none of us read Persian, we have no choice but to accept these \nwildly different versions. Maybe Orion is not really there at all, nor a \nnoose or net. There's no Bowl or other medium to transmit waves from a \nflung Stone. There's no Morning to fling it. They are totally different.\n\nBut why would Wolfe use the more complex initial version if he intended \nthe meaning of the second?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD4E4E.4090201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T16:33:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD42CD.8060803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 8:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman\nSure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be \nvisible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nNot at dawn.\nBEFORE dawn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thing is, if he has risen, he is not visible if he is still in the \nEast. I really dislike the visual aesthetics here. I'll ask Mr. Khayyam \nwhat his intention was if I see him at the next convention.\n;-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD5BAD.20106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T17:30:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD4E4E.4090201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 11:33 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/11/2011 8:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman\nSure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be \nvisible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nNot at dawn.\nBEFORE dawn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thing is, if he has risen, he is not visible if he is still in the \nEast. I really dislike the visual aesthetics here. I'll ask Mr. \nKhayyam what his intention was if I see him at the next convention.\n;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be better off asking Fitzgerald, I think! The fact that it seems \nto be entirely his invention renders the point almost moot. But I \nfinally pulled up Stellarium 9.1 to prove my point:\n\nAt temperate latitudes (Philadelphia through Kabul), in early July 2112 \nOrion will begin to rise with Venus and the sun, not after. From \nmid-July to mid-August, Venus will precede both and Orion will have a \ngood hour or two of visibility before the sun vanishes them both. During \nthis period the sun moves away from Orion, granted. By September Orion \nhas the night to itself, is less close to the sun when the sun rises, \nand Venus has moved on.\n\nThere is therefore a point in time at least where Venus rises, Orion \nrises after it as though holding it up, is clearly visible, and then the \nsun rises very near them, rendering them invisible. You would only need \na minute or two to watch this happen.\n\nI certainly don't argue that even this version of the poem/stanza is \nentirely literal. The Hunter is implicit in the night sky if you know he \ncomes, so there needs to be no exact arrangement of elements. Venus may \nrise with Orion only rarely, for all I know. But it's not like the image \nis impossible---not at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T17:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD5BAD.20106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that one thing that has been missed in all this is that we are\ntold that, under the dying Old Sun, the stars are visible at midday.\nSo the \"stone that puts the stars to flight\" must be the _New_ Sun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T17:58:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good work, Jeff. I issue a challenge to those who still interpret \"the Stone\" as\nVenus to find a published interpretation of Kayaam which matches. I looked and didn't \nfind any but perhaps there are some to be found." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nBecause I enjoy being proven wrong or at least shown viable alternatives to my views. That's \n\nhow I learn. And I've learned plenty by that process here in the past seven years. I, myself\n\ncouldn't find any counter-evidence to my contention that the Stone which chases the stars\n\naway is the Sun. Jeff found evidence for my contention. Perhaps someone more motivated to\n\nprove me wrong can find something against it somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Erm... how about the one quoted by Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWhat quote by Wolfe determines that the Stone is Venus? I haven't seen such a quote but perhaps\n\nyou know of one Gerry? I'm interested to see it.\n\n \n\nThe Omar Kayaam quote appears a few pages from the very end of a 5 book series about the New Sun.\n\nThe original translator seems to think it means the sun. The sun is round, like a stone and it\n\ndoes wash away the stars in the morning. I don't see the difficulty in understanding the sun\n\nreference. After all this discussion, is the idea that it might be the sun and not be Venus be so\n\nimpossible to consider? Or is this simply a battle where not an inch may be openly ceded to the \n\nenemy?\n\n \n\n \n\nIn regard to the BotNS-irrelevant Hunter:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be \nvisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nDavid Stockhoff: Not at dawn. BEFORE dawn.\n\n\nCorrect. The translator calls it the Hunter \"of\" the East not the Hunter \"in\" the east. \n\nYou are where you came from. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD680E.5080505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T18:23:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 12:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nThe Omar Kayaam quote appears a few pages from the very end of a 5 book series about the New Sun.\n\nThe original translator seems to think it means the sun. The sun is round, like a stone and it\n\ndoes wash away the stars in the morning. I don't see the difficulty in understanding the sun\n\nreference. After all this discussion, is the idea that it might be the sun and not be Venus be so\n\nimpossible to consider? Or is this simply a battle where not an inch may be openly ceded to the\n\nenemy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I don't understand is in what sense you mean \"be\" the sun. It's a \npoem. I don't think it meaning needs to be nailed down, nor did Khayyam \nwrite it for Wolfe's text. Certainly Venus is not able to hide stars, \nbut it does herald the sun itself, which is and does.\n\nFurthermore, the sun can't rise twice: if it is Morning who comes, then \nthe stone is the sun flung by it; if it is the sun who comes, then the \nstone is not the sun but something else. So if the stone is the sun then \nwhere is the New Sun? It's already there. What is the Morning of BotNS? \nUshas?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9401E4BF41DE4891B3B9B27A06BA5FD3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T18:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Erm... how about the one quoted by Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What quote by Wolfe determines that the Stone is Venus? I haven't seen such a\n quote but perhaps you know of one Gerry? I'm interested to see it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you read my post — I explained my thinking.\n\nI’m not committed to the stone being Venus, but I think Venus is a viable interpretation. [Of the original, I think Wolfe means the White Fountain.]\n\nAnother interpretation I think is viable is that the stone is entirely metaphorical and does not refer to any celestial body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Omar Kayaam quote appears a few pages from the very end of a 5 book \nseries about the New Sun. The original translator seems to think it means the sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think so. I think the original translator used “Hunter of the East” to mean the Sun. I don’t think it’s elegant if the stone is also the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sun is round, like a stone and it does wash away the stars in the morning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stones can be any shape, and don’t usually glow. A stone cast into a pool makes the reflected stars vanish, but also vanishes itself. And the Sun is NOT cast into the Bowl of Night, it is at best moving slowly into the edge of the Bowl.\n\nHere’s my reading: dawn is breaking, and the stars flee the bowl of night (the night sky) as if a stone had been cast into a dark reflective pool, destroying the reflections. The Sun is not yet visible, but the tops of the highest towers are limned in light. The poet or translator likens this to a noose of light cast around them by a hunter — thus the Hunter of the East is the rising Sun. [A later translator used a different metaphor, but still referred to the Sun in the second couplet.]\n\nThe stone cast into the bowl is difficult to see as the Sun, or at least I find it so — it must either be the Morning Star (as James suggested) or entirely metaphorical. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I don't see the difficulty in understanding the sun reference. After all this \ndiscussion, is the idea that it might be the sun and not be Venus be so\nimpossible to consider? Or is this simply a battle where not an inch may be openly ceded to the \nenemy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand the sun reference, I just don’t think it’s what was intended. Now perhaps it was: you and David clearly think differently from me and James. I’ve explained above why I don’t like the stone as a sun reference, i.e, the sun has not been cast into the bowl, and there is already another sun metaphor. But unless the translator left notes, I don’t think it can be proven one way or the other.\n\nDavid thinks the Hunter must be Orion, basically because Orion has that metaphor trademarked at least as regards the sky. And maybe the first translator agrees with David. But then we need to explain why the first translator substituted an Orion reference for a Sun reference, because the second translation makes it clear that the Sun must have been referenced in the second couplet of the original. I think the Sun as hunter works well with the noose of light image, so well that the first translator decided to run with it despite the strong association between huntsmen and Orion. And the attempts to explain the noose of light in the context of Orion seem a bit strained, not to mention the association with the East. The rising Sun scores a bulls-eye on both.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n \n\n \n\nIn regard to the BotNS-irrelevant Hunter:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, Orion rises in the east. But not at dawn, if it wants to be \nvisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nDavid Stockhoff: Not at dawn. BEFORE dawn.\n\n\nCorrect. The translator calls it the Hunter \"of\" the East not the Hunter \"in\" the east. \n\nYou are where you came from. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T19:25:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<9401E4BF41DE4891B3B9B27A06BA5FD3@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I think that one thing that has been missed in all this is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that we are told that, under the dying Old Sun, the stars are visible at midday.\nSo the \"stone that puts the stars to flight\" must be the _New_ Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAn excellent point upon which I agree fully. Judging by their posts I think others\n\nmight be at least grudgingly in agreement. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD79F7.9040301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T19:39:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<9401E4BF41DE4891B3B9B27A06BA5FD3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 1:40 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Erm... how about the one quoted by Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What quote by Wolfe determines that the Stone is Venus? I haven't \nseen such a\nquote but perhaps you know of one Gerry? I'm interested to see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you read my post — I explained my thinking.\nI’m not committed to the stone being Venus, but I think Venus is a \nviable interpretation. [Of the original, I think Wolfe means the White \nFountain.]\nAnother interpretation I think is viable is that the stone is entirely \nmetaphorical and does not refer to any celestial body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. It relates more to the \"bowl of stars\" in that case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Omar Kayaam quote appears a few pages from the very end of a 5 book\nseries about the New Sun. The original translator seems to think it \nmeans the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think so. I think the original translator used “Hunter of the \nEast” to mean the Sun. I don’t think it’s elegant if the stone is also \nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to hear why the sun might be a hunter, but I agree with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The sun is round, like a stone and it does wash away the stars in \nthe morning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stones can be any shape, and don’t usually glow. A stone cast into a \npool makes the reflected stars vanish, but also vanishes itself. And \nthe Sun is NOT cast into the Bowl of Night, it is at best moving \nslowly into the edge of the Bowl.\nHere’s my reading: dawn is breaking, and the stars flee the bowl of \nnight (the night sky) as if a stone had been cast into a dark \nreflective pool, destroying the reflections. The Sun is not yet \nvisible, but the tops of the highest towers are limned in light. The \npoet or translator likens this to a noose of light cast around them by \na hunter — thus the Hunter of the East is the rising Sun. [A later \ntranslator used a different metaphor, but still referred to the Sun in \nthe second couplet.]\nThe stone cast into the bowl is difficult to see as the Sun, or at \nleast I find it so — it must either be the Morning Star (as James \nsuggested) or entirely metaphorical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I prefer these too, though I can see the stone as the sun if it precedes \nMorning, not the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see the difficulty in understanding the sun reference. After \nall this\ndiscussion, is the idea that it might be the sun and not be Venus be so\nimpossible to consider? Or is this simply a battle where not an inch \nmay be openly ceded to the\nenemy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand the sun reference, I just don’t think it’s what was \nintended. Now perhaps it was: you and David clearly think differently \nfrom me and James. I’ve explained above why I don’t like the stone as \na sun reference, i.e, the sun has not been cast into the bowl, and \nthere is already another sun metaphor. But unless the translator left \nnotes, I don’t think it can be proven one way or the other.\nDavid thinks the Hunter must be Orion, basically because Orion has \nthat metaphor trademarked at least as regards the sky. And maybe the \nfirst translator agrees with David. But then we need to explain why \nthe first translator substituted an Orion reference for a Sun \nreference, because the second translation makes it clear that the Sun \nmust have been referenced in the second couplet of the original. I \nthink the Sun as hunter works well with the noose of light image, so \nwell that the first translator decided to run with it despite the \nstrong association between huntsmen and Orion. And the attempts to \nexplain the noose of light in the context of Orion seem a bit \nstrained, not to mention the association with the East. The rising Sun \nscores a bulls-eye on both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't need to explain those things because we can't. We have no idea \nwhether the Persian original remotely matches either version we have. \nFor all we know, the original said,\n\nAwake! The chessboard of stars is swept clear,\nAs the White Queen advances boldly\nCapturing the King's citadel\nWith a spear of light.\n\nand Fitzgerald didn't like the chess imagery. The two versions are \nalmost that different.\n\nAs I've suggested, Orion works perfectly if the date is midsummer. That \nputs Orion in the east at dawn. The transfer from hunting ability from \nOrion to sun is definitely tricksy, but what else could explain the sun \nas a hunter with a noose? Where else does such an image come from? Have \nyou ever seen the sun go hunting? I'd call that \"strained.\"\n\nEverything in a poem is at least two things. Fixing a single meaning to \neach element does no work. It can't only be the sun that rises in the east." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T19:56:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD79F7.9040301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nEverything in a poem is at least two things. Fixing a single meaning to each\nelement does no work. It can't only be the sun that rises in the east." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a very Western, modernist view of poetry, to which\nKhayaam probably did not subscribe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD7FF5.8050107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T20:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 2:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I think that one thing that has been missed in all this is\nthat we are told that, under the dying Old Sun, the stars are visible at midday.\nSo the \"stone that puts the stars to flight\" must be the _New_ Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An excellent point upon which I agree fully. Judging by their posts I think others\n\nmight be at least grudgingly in agreement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than grudgingly! Either the stone is Severian and the New Sun and \nMorning is the new \"day\" or Ushas (a heavy weight for the poem to bear), \nor the stone is a presentiment or herald of the New Sun's coming, but \none that has no particular clear corresponding element in BotNS.\n\nBTW, Skuld is only mentioned about 3 times: as \"bright\", as the World of \nthe Future, and in the following from URTH:\n\n\"A COCK crowed; and as the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and \nthe single bright star (blue now with its velocity) that was myself. I \nwas whole once more. And near! Fair Skuld, rising with the dawn, was not \nso brilliant and did not show so broad a disk.\"\n\nDoes anyone propose that Wolfe wrote the book around the poem? If not, \nthen the correspondence is going to be inexact at best---it is a \nquestion with no final form and therefore no absolute answer. Here \nSeverian is both the New Sun and NOT the New Sun. Go figure.\n\nIt's already hard enough to interpret a poem in two versions; we can \nhardly expect to map an unassailable, unambiguous interpretation from \nthem to another work. We are already moving across languages. In this \npoem, we have only juxtapositions of images to work with." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD8027.70309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T20:05:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 2:56 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everything in a poem is at least two things. Fixing a single meaning to each\nelement does no work. It can't only be the sun that rises in the east." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a very Western, modernist view of poetry, to which\nKhayaam probably did not subscribe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Khayaam didn't write the poem. Fitzgerald did." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD876C.1070600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T20:37:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD79F7.9040301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another interpretation I think is viable is that the stone is \nentirely metaphorical and does not refer to any celestial body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nExactly. It relates more to the \"bowl of stars\" in that case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"bowl of night\" specifically refers to the night sky which forms a \ndome over us--the stars are embedded on the dome and the sun, moon, and \nplanets crawl upon its surface." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBD8A5E.9030408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T20:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD876C.1070600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 3:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another interpretation I think is viable is that the stone is \nentirely metaphorical and does not refer to any celestial body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nExactly. It relates more to the \"bowl of stars\" in that case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"bowl of night\" specifically refers to the night sky which forms a \ndome over us--the stars are embedded on the dome and the sun, moon, \nand planets crawl upon its surface.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-11T21:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBD8027.70309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think that's a very Western, modernist view of poetry, to which\nKhayaam probably did not subscribe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Khayaam didn't write the poem. Fitzgerald did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he translated it, which is kind of like writing a whole new\npoem. (Traductore, traduttore.) But even FitzGerald is a bit early for\nmodernism, I believe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBDA5E6.1020303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T22:47:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 4:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's a very Western, modernist view of poetry, to which\nKhayaam probably did not subscribe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Khayaam didn't write the poem. Fitzgerald did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he translated it, which is kind of like writing a whole new\npoem. (Traductore, traduttore.) But even FitzGerald is a bit early for\nmodernism, I believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. But to be precise, it's not about poetry per se but about \nmetaphor. All metaphors invoke at least four meanings. If we say, Strike \noff the head (of the beast), we invoke (1) a head (2) a beast's body (3) \nSaddam or your favorite Hitler stand-in (4) Iraq or Al-Qaeda or \nwhatever. Every part has at least two meanings. There is a source word \nand a target word and additionally a potentially hidden figurative means \nor mechanism (in this case the body) by which to relate them, without \nwhich the metaphor fails.\n\nThat's what I meant. This poem needs to get stuck on something to be \nmore than a clockwork of literal things: A strikes B strikes C and the \npoem gets to its destination like a train \"down the ringing grooves of \nchange.\" We have disparate images on top of one another describing two \nevents in parsimonious language that reuses some elements and introduces \nothers as it goes along. What caught Wolfe's ear?\n\nMorning flings a stone into the bowl of night, setting stars to flight; \na hunter catches a tower in a noose of light. Both are Dawn, so we know \nthe stars fled the light. But they must connect in other ways too. \nTogether, they must describe a magical, contradictory, paradoxical \nmoment; they are not two views of a blackbird.\n\nWhere did the stone go? The stone is a means by which Morning causes the \nstars to \"flee\" or vanish; it is part of the \"bowl of night full of \nstars\" metaphor as James notes. It doesn't need to be Venus, or anything \nelse, but Venus is available, as is the sun. It doesn't need to be \nanything in the second event, but it is awkward to imagine the stone \nbeing a thing that is also in the second event, as Gerry notes---the sun \nis clearly implied there by the word \"light\" and is nothing like a \nstone. Venus is more like a stone. But again, it is not needed. For \nWolfe's purposes, both work great and I have no preference.\n\nWhere was Morning before she came? Morning precedes and follows the poem \nas a personified process, encompassing it. She initiates and completes \nthe process that is herself. She is not quite present but she will be.\n\nWhere did the hunter come from? Night is still present in the second \nevent, robbed of its stars. Morning is not yet present, or else the \nnoose would be invisible: it is Night that makes the noose visible. What \nelse may persist? Unless the sun is known as a noose-hunter, it is \nrather awkward to invoke a new metaphor or image not even fully imagined \nuntil the last line (though the third line tells us he not a killer but \na catcher of things).\n\nWhat does the sun catch but not kill? Perhaps the sun catches that which \nit illuminates, but that's hard to read from \"the Hunter in the East has \ncaught\" if you don't react, \"Oh, the Sun, that old Hunter in the East. \nOf course.\" I argue that the Hunter is already there---and is known by \nthe reader to be there, because he's there all summer and fall---and has \nsnared his prey at the moment he himself disappears.\n\nIt is this paradoxical act of disappearing in plain sight---achieving \nvictory in defeat---invisibility in visibility---that the poem describes \nas the moment of dawn. Wolfe turns it a bit inside out, but it works on \nso many levels: the way evil works for good; the way the gods favor \nthose they would destroy; to see me, look!; the way all things turn into \nother things; the way Severian saves Urth by destroying it in this very \nbook. The New Sun stuff just rams it home." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBDABD0.2020003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-11T23:12:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/11/2011 4:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's a very Western, modernist view of poetry, to which\nKhayaam probably did not subscribe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Khayaam didn't write the poem. Fitzgerald did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he translated it, which is kind of like writing a whole new\npoem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To that point, from http://www.humanistictexts.org/omar_khayyam.htm:\n\nA sample comparison of the two translations from three of the more \nfamous verses:\n\nWhere Fitzgerald writes\n\n/Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night/\n\n/Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:/\n\nGraves and Ali-Shah write\n\n/While Dawn, Day's herald straddling the whole sky, /\n\n/Offers the drowsy world a toast “To Wine”, /" } ] }, { "message_id": "<79C39C9600854475967827BB5AA8EB86@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T12:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBDA5E6.1020303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where did the hunter come from? Night is still present in the second \nevent, robbed of its stars. Morning is not yet present, or else the \nnoose would be invisible: it is Night that makes the noose visible. What \nelse may persist? Unless the sun is known as a noose-hunter, it is \nrather awkward to invoke a new metaphor or image not even fully imagined \nuntil the last line (though the third line tells us he not a killer but \na catcher of things)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What does the sun catch but not kill? Perhaps the sun catches that which \nit illuminates, but that's hard to read from \"the Hunter in the East has \ncaught\" if you don't react, \"Oh, the Sun, that old Hunter in the East. \nOf course.\" I argue that the Hunter is already there---and is known by \nthe reader to be there, because he's there all summer and fall---and has \nsnared his prey at the moment he himself disappears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with most of your post, but I remain convinced that the Hunter is the rising Sun, not Orion.\n\nSuppose we forget about the traditional association of Orion and hunting for a moment, and consider the metaphor entirely in its own light (no pun intended). It’s not even a metaphor, it’s a really nice description! Imagine a desert city at dawn. The sky is light and the stars — or most of them - are gone. The Sun has not yet risen as far as someone on the ground is concerned, but its light strikes the topmost part of the highest tower (“the Sultan’s Turret”). Imagine such a turret seen from any direction other than the west — isn’t a “noose of light” not just a metaphor but a great descriptive image?\n\nAnd who cast the noose? Obviously the Sun. Hunters cast nooses, and the Sun rises in the east — hence, obviously, the Hunter of the East. Everything fits perfectly. I think you’d agree that were it not for the known association of Orion and hunting, you would happily accept this interpretation?\n\nIf so, the question is whether this known association so constrains Fitzgerald that he cannot mean the Sun — anytime Fitzgerald speaks of a Hunter in connection with the dawn (not night) sky he must be speaking of Orion. First, I don’t know much about Fitzgerald but I don’t see why he would be so limited in his imagination. Second, I don’t think Orion works. Orion clearly didn’t cast the noose. Orion has no special association with the east (he rises there, but then again he sets in the west). By contrast we are speaking specifically of the rising Sun so the “East” needs no explanation.\n\nAnd besides all that, Orion is gone! It’s no longer Night, and the stars including Orion have already been put to flight by the time we can see sunlight circling the top of a tower. Hunters don’t disappear after snaring their prey, they come up and capture them fully. That’s exactly what the Sun will do with the Sultan’s tower.\n\nI guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar direction to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as usual on the side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical associations and concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent in the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBE8FC4.4000502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-12T15:24:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<79C39C9600854475967827BB5AA8EB86@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 7:48 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nWhere did the hunter come from? Night is still present in the second\nevent, robbed of its stars. Morning is not yet present, or else the\nnoose would be invisible: it is Night that makes the noose visible. \nWhat\nelse may persist? Unless the sun is known as a noose-hunter, it is\nrather awkward to invoke a new metaphor or image not even fully \nimagined\nuntil the last line (though the third line tells us he not a killer but\na catcher of things)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What does the sun catch but not kill? Perhaps the sun catches that \nwhich\nit illuminates, but that's hard to read from \"the Hunter in the East \nhas\ncaught\" if you don't react, \"Oh, the Sun, that old Hunter in the East.\nOf course.\" I argue that the Hunter is already there---and is known by\nthe reader to be there, because he's there all summer and fall---and \nhas\nsnared his prey at the moment he himself disappears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with most of your post, but I remain convinced that the Hunter \nis the rising Sun, not Orion.\nSuppose we forget about the traditional association of Orion and \nhunting for a moment, and consider the metaphor entirely in its own \nlight (no pun intended). It’s not even a metaphor, it’s a really nice \ndescription! Imagine a desert city at dawn. The sky is light and the \nstars — or most of them - are gone. The Sun has not yet risen as far \nas someone on the ground is concerned, but its light strikes the \ntopmost part of the highest tower (“the Sultan’s Turret”). Imagine \nsuch a turret seen from any direction other than the west — isn’t a \n“noose of light” not just a metaphor but a great descriptive image?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, no. I don't think I \"see\" a noose at all no matter how hard I \ntry---to me it seems purely literary, a play on words already spoken. \nBut pray continue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who cast the noose? Obviously the Sun. Hunters cast nooses, and \nthe Sun rises in the east — hence, obviously, the Hunter of the East. \nEverything fits perfectly. I think you’d agree that were it not for \nthe known association of Orion and hunting, you would happily accept \nthis interpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\n\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light.\n\nNo. If I had only the second couplet above and no knowledge of the \nfirst, since I know Orion rises in the east, I'd first assume the noose \nis an interpretation of Orion's weapon-constellation, which is variously \na club or bow or a lion. (James's point about Orion's Net supports this \nbut I had no idea of it.) On second thought, I'd suspect that \"east\" and \n\"light\" point to a dawn scene. And since I know Orion can rise at dawn, \nI'd wonder why Orion the hunter had a noose of light but would assume \nthe sun lent him his noose at the moment of daybreak. That's essentially \nmy current interpretation. I'd \"get\" it then.\n\nI accept that the hunter is in some way the sun, since he uses a noose \nof sunlight; to reverse this, since I have already argued that the sun \nfinishes Orion's act of hunting, Orion becomes the sun and thus the sun \nIS Orion, the hunter. But without Orion there can be no hunter. I could \nnot remove Orion from the poem---if I did, I'd wonder why the dawn sun \nis a hunter, why he hunts with a noose, and why the dawn has been \ndescribed in this awkward and pompous way. It would make no sense at \nall. No poetry. DOA. Formula: X1=Y1, X2=Y2, X3=Y3. Yawn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, the question is whether this known association so constrains \nFitzgerald that he cannot mean the Sun — anytime Fitzgerald speaks of \na Hunter in connection with the dawn (not night) sky he must be \nspeaking of Orion. First, I don’t know much about Fitzgerald but I \ndon’t see why he would be so limited in his imagination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. As you said, the name brand is totally owned by Orion as purely \nliterary allusion. Yes, this is limiting, if you consider a deep \nVictorian steeping in classical literature that opens a whole new \nuniverse of language to be poetically limiting!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, I don’t think Orion works. Orion clearly didn’t cast the \nnoose. Orion has no special association with the east (he rises there, \nbut then again he sets in the west). By contrast we are speaking \nspecifically of the rising Sun so the “East” needs no explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Orion is associated with wherever he is low and hunting, whether to the \neast or west. His location is associated with the season at the time he \nhunts. That is his role. The poet is telling us in the plainest allusive \nlanguage possible, Hey! There's young Orion rising before the dawn! He \nlets loose his hounds! Day breaks! (In the original, apparently, Start \ndrinking!)\n\nYou haven't said why Orion doesn't work other than denying that he \nexists, which you cannot do. But the sun has no \"special association\" \nwith noose-hunting. And where is the rising sun in the poem? It is not \nmentioned anywhere---there is no \"rising\" depicted whatsoever. You have \ninferred it without realizing it. Where is the sun itself? Nowhere in \nthe poem at all. If it is there, what does it look like? Does it have a \ndisk? A color? A mien? It might be like a stone in one way, but \notherwise there are no answers. It's not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And besides all that, Orion is gone! It’s no longer Night, and the \nstars including Orion have already been put to flight by the time we \ncan see sunlight circling the top of a tower. Hunters don’t disappear \nafter snaring their prey, they come up and capture them fully. That’s \nexactly what the Sun will do with the Sultan’s tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is where you go terribly wrong. Isn't it a poem rather than a \nreport or analysis? And why do you say Night went away---when only the \nstars have gone? Is it already day? No and no. You've not responded to \nmy comments on these points.\n\nShould the sun now take the tower to market and sell it, then go home to \nhis wife? That's what a hunter would do in the real world. But in fact \nthe sun will release the tower as day comes and the \"noose\" vanishes. Do \nyou mean to say that since the noose vanishes it never existed? (In a \nsense it did not because it is an illusion/allusion.) But that's your \nargument regarding Orion---he vanishes, so he was never there. Nonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar \ndirection to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as \nusual on the side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical \nassociations and concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent \nin the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are not kidding!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T16:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBE8FC4.4000502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\n\nI guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "direction to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as usual on\nthe side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical associations\nand concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you saying you're a New Critic?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T17:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBE8FC4.4000502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And who cast the noose? Obviously the Sun. Hunters cast nooses, and \nthe Sun rises in the east — hence, obviously, the Hunter of the East. \nEverything fits perfectly. I think you’d agree that were it not for \nthe known association of Orion and hunting, you would happily accept \nthis interpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. If I had only the second couplet above and no knowledge of the \nfirst, since I know Orion rises in the east, I'd first assume the noose \nis an interpretation of Orion's weapon-constellation, which is variously \na club or bow or a lion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You miss my point. Suppose you never heard of Orion, or there was no association between Orion and hunting. Wouldn’t the sun metaphor leap out at you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I accept that the hunter is in some way the sun, since he uses a noose \nof sunlight; to reverse this, since I have already argued that the sun \nfinishes Orion's act of hunting, Orion becomes the sun and thus the sun \nIS Orion, the hunter. But without Orion there can be no hunter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems bizarre to me. Orion does not have sole ownership of the concept of hunting. Even you can see the hunter is really the Sun - why do you struggle so to reject it by insisting that must throw the noose?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I could \nnot remove Orion from the poem---if I did, I'd wonder why the dawn sun \nis a hunter, why he hunts with a noose, and why the dawn has been \ndescribed in this awkward and pompous way. It would make no sense at \nall. No poetry. DOA. Formula: X1=Y1, X2=Y2, X3=Y3. Yawn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it’s the exact opposite. To drag in Orion for no good reason except he is supposed to be the constellation associated with hunting seems totally pedestrian and lacking in poetry. A computer might interpret so.\n\nAs for removing Orion: you don’t have to. He’s not anywhere in the poem. He’s not referred to anywhere except in your (mis)interpretation of “Hunter”. He’s not anywhere in the sky. the stars have fled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If so, the question is whether this known association so constrains \nFitzgerald that he cannot mean the Sun — anytime Fitzgerald speaks of \na Hunter in connection with the dawn (not night) sky he must be \nspeaking of Orion. First, I don’t know much about Fitzgerald but I \ndon’t see why he would be so limited in his imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. As you said, the name brand is totally owned by Orion as purely \nliterary allusion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was interpreting what you were saying — I wasn’t stating that. Hunter metaphors abound and may be freely used, even for the Sun. There’s a known association, but Fitzgerald isn’t using it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, this is limiting, if you consider a deep \nVictorian steeping in classical literature that opens a whole new \nuniverse of language to be poetically limiting!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clinging to a single permitted metaphorical association for hunting doesn’t open anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, I don’t think Orion works. Orion clearly didn’t cast the \nnoose. Orion has no special association with the east (he rises there, \nbut then again he sets in the west). By contrast we are speaking \nspecifically of the rising Sun so the “East” needs no explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You haven't said why Orion doesn't work other than denying that he \nexists, which you cannot do. But the sun has no \"special association\" \nwith noose-hunting. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did say. First, Orion *doesn’t* exist! The sky is bright, and the patterns of stars known as constellations are gone. The Sun’s association with noose-hunting is made in the poem, as the light shining around a high turret is described as a “noose of light”. You may not be able to see it, but Fitzgerald could, and I can too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is the rising sun in the poem? It is not \nmentioned anywhere---there is no \"rising\" depicted whatsoever. You have \ninferred it without realizing it. Where is the sun itself? Nowhere in \nthe poem at all. If it is there, what does it look like? Does it have a \ndisk? A color? A mien? It might be like a stone in one way, but \notherwise there are no answers. It's not there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The Sun is not yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are. \n\nBy the way, I looked up “hunter of the east interpretation” in Google. I found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the hunter is the Sun.\n\nhttp://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/rubaiyat.html\n\nhttp://oaks.nvg.org/rua.html\n\nAlthough the second refers a third commentary that says he is “Eastern Wisdom”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar \ndirection to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as \nusual on the side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical \nassociations and concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent \nin the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are not kidding!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, and I am more convinced than ever that it’s the right way to go.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1A86BE77D4D54A0AB844F9CAE68763CF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T17:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee \nGerry Quinn:I guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar direction to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as usual on the side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical associations and concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you saying you're a New Critic? Maybe I am. I’m not following any particular school, just using the interpretive methods that seem right to me in the context of understanding Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Gerry Quinn \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBEB059.6070806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-12T17:43:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 12:07 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And who cast the noose? Obviously the Sun. Hunters cast nooses, and\nthe Sun rises in the east — hence, obviously, the Hunter of the East.\nEverything fits perfectly. I think you’d agree that were it not for\nthe known association of Orion and hunting, you would happily accept\nthis interpretation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. If I had only the second couplet above and no knowledge of the\nfirst, since I know Orion rises in the east, I'd first assume the noose\nis an interpretation of Orion's weapon-constellation, which is \nvariously\na club or bow or a lion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You miss my point. Suppose you never heard of Orion, or there was no \nassociation between Orion and hunting. Wouldn’t the sun metaphor leap \nout at you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I DIDN'T miss your point. If I had never heard of Orion the poem would \nmake no sense. I would never have heard of constellations or the \nsignificance of stars or Night. It would be bad; it would not be a poem. \nI said so. I ask again in what sense is the sun EVER a hunter? Explain. \nYou can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I accept that the hunter is in some way the sun, since he uses a noose\nof sunlight; to reverse this, since I have already argued that the sun\nfinishes Orion's act of hunting, Orion becomes the sun and thus the sun\nIS Orion, the hunter. But without Orion there can be no hunter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems bizarre to me. Orion does not have sole ownership of the \nconcept of hunting. Even you can see the hunter is really the Sun - \nwhy do you struggle so to reject it by insisting that must throw the \nnoose?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've abandoned all pretense of argument and are now begging." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could\nnot remove Orion from the poem---if I did, I'd wonder why the dawn sun\nis a hunter, why he hunts with a noose, and why the dawn has been\ndescribed in this awkward and pompous way. It would make no sense at\nall. No poetry. DOA. Formula: X1=Y1, X2=Y2, X3=Y3. Yawn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me it’s the exact opposite. To drag in Orion for no good reason \nexcept he is supposed to be the constellation associated with hunting \nseems totally pedestrian and lacking in poetry. A computer might \ninterpret so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, let's pretend 2000 years of literature never occurred and then ask \nwho is the computer. Gerry, your programming is faulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for removing Orion: you don’t have to. He’s not anywhere in the \npoem. He’s not referred to anywhere except in your (mis)interpretation \nof “Hunter”. He’s not anywhere in the sky. the stars have fled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are your usual games. You pick and choose the evidence that suits \nyou, and then claim you only see what is there and never what is not.\n\nAre literary allusions real? If not, then fine---but you must renounce \nthem forever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If so, the question is whether this known association so constrains\nFitzgerald that he cannot mean the Sun — anytime Fitzgerald speaks of\na Hunter in connection with the dawn (not night) sky he must be\nspeaking of Orion. First, I don’t know much about Fitzgerald but I\ndon’t see why he would be so limited in his imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct. As you said, the name brand is totally owned by Orion as \npurely\nliterary allusion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was interpreting what you were saying — I wasn’t stating that. \nHunter metaphors abound and may be freely used, even for the Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There’s a known association, but Fitzgerald isn’t using it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When do you begin showing that to be true? Next week some time? How does \none avoid \"a known association\" anyway? How does FitzGerald turn it off?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, this is limiting, if you consider a deep\nVictorian steeping in classical literature that opens a whole new\nuniverse of language to be poetically limiting!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clinging to a single permitted metaphorical association for hunting \ndoesn’t open anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but denying all classical allusions IN A VICTORIAN POEM does?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Second, I don’t think Orion works. Orion clearly didn’t cast the\nnoose. Orion has no special association with the east (he rises \nthere,\nbut then again he sets in the west). By contrast we are speaking\nspecifically of the rising Sun so the “East” needs no explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You haven't said why Orion doesn't work other than denying that he\nexists, which you cannot do. But the sun has no \"special association\"\nwith noose-hunting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did say. First, Orion *doesn’t* exist! The sky is bright, and the \npatterns of stars known as constellations are gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fail. The Hunter is there to vanish, like the stars to which you refer. \nIt is that vanishing the first couplet describes. The rest you're making up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Sun’s association with noose-hunting is made in the poem, as the \nlight shining around a high turret is described as a “noose of light”. \nYou may not be able to see it, but Fitzgerald could, and I can too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not an \"association.\" That's a metaphor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where is the rising sun in the poem? It is not\nmentioned anywhere---there is no \"rising\" depicted whatsoever. You have\ninferred it without realizing it. Where is the sun itself? Nowhere in\nthe poem at all. If it is there, what does it look like? Does it have a\ndisk? A color? A mien? It might be like a stone in one way, but\notherwise there are no answers. It's not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The Sun is \nnot yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Sun is not yet visible.\" Thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, I looked up “hunter of the east interpretation” in Google. \nI found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the hunter is \nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No they don't. I told you the sun is the Hunter of the East. I told you \nHOW he is the Hunter of the East and how it derives from the \njust-vanished Orion, who is the original Hunter of the East. The night \nhunter becomes the day hunter. Do you read posts in their entirety? Do \nyou have an explanation for how the sun is the hunter? No, it's \"just so.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/rubaiyat.html\nhttp://oaks.nvg.org/rua.html\nAlthough the second refers a third commentary that says he is “Eastern \nWisdom”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guess it’s interesting that the argument is tending in a similar\ndirection to some of those regarding Wolfe, that is to say I am as\nusual on the side of pooh-poohing interpretations based on classical\nassociations and concentrate instead on images and metaphors inherent\nin the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are not kidding!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, and I am more convinced than ever that it’s the right way to go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Picking and choosing evidence has always worked for you before, so you \nshould certainly stick with it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T19:32:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBEB059.6070806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And where is the rising sun in the poem? It is not\nmentioned anywhere---there is no \"rising\" depicted whatsoever. You have\ninferred it without realizing it. Where is the sun itself? Nowhere in\nthe poem at all. If it is there, what does it look like? Does it have a\ndisk? A color? A mien? It might be like a stone in one way, but\notherwise there are no answers. It's not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The Sun is \nnot yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The Sun is not yet visible.\" Thank you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You asked “where is the rising sun?” It is just below the horizon. In a moment we will see it. Already we see its light shining on the tower. It is Orion that is nowhere mentioned, nowhere visible, and nowhere implied except for your invalid paint-by-numbers insistence that any hunter must somehow be Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, I looked up “hunter of the east interpretation” in Google. \nI found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the hunter is \nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No they don't. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes they do. One says: “The stanza presents two arresting personifications, the first when Morning chases the stars away and the second when the sun,the Hunter of the East, lassoes the Sultan's Turret with a rope of light.” The second (speaking of a third) says ?Hunter of the East somewhat arbitrarily taken to mean \"Eastern wisdom, a mighty slayer of delusion\" where 'the Sun' would suffice ?. Neither mentions Orion anywhere. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I told you the sun is the Hunter of the East. I told you \nHOW he is the Hunter of the East and how it derives from the \njust-vanished Orion, who is the original Hunter of the East. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is turning into gibberish. You started off by insisting that the Hunter is Orion, and I told you that the Hunter is the Sun. Now you are trying to make out that yes, okay, the Hunter is the Sun, but the Sun is somehow really Orion. The Hunter is the Sun, period. Orion is not involved here anywhere. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The night \nhunter becomes the day hunter. Do you read posts in their entirety? Do \nyou have an explanation for how the sun is the hunter? No, it's \"just so.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did explain it, though it barely needs an explanation. the Sun has thrown a noose of light around the tower. The poet sees it as capturing the tower, i.e, hunting it. The Hunter of the East, in fact, as distinct from any other hunter such as Orion.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBEDCBA.6060808@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T20:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/11/2011 8:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOf course, Apollo is a hunter and was god of the sun along with arts and\nlyres and pythons, and probably more prominent in the mind of a\nclassically educated Englishman than a muslim Afganistani." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is off the mark. I did an Apollo+hunter search, just to check, and found mostly\n\nstatements to the contrary, \"Apollo is not a hunter\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apollo not a hunter? God of the bow, stalker and slayer of the python, \ntracker of stolen cattle, stalker and taker of infant Hermes, relentless \npursuer of Daphne, co-stalker and co-slayer of Niobe's children, cast in \nbronze at his Pompeii temple in the same archery pose as his hunting \ngoddess twin sister's bronze at her Pompeii temple? That \nApollo-not-a-hunter?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T22:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBEDCBA.6060808@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson:\n\nApollo not a hunter? God of the bow, stalker and slayer of the python," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tracker of stolen cattle, stalker and taker of infant Hermes, relentless\npursuer of Daphne, co-stalker and co-slayer of Niobe's children, cast in\nbronze at his Pompeii temple in the same archery pose as his hunting\ngoddess twin sister's bronze at her Pompeii temple? That\nApollo-not-a-hunter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be overstating your point. Apollo's the god of archery.\nWikipedia is as far as you need to go to find that out. Also, when *I*\nsearched for Apollo+Hunter, this was the first link:\n\nhttp://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/night-hunters-artemis-apollo.html\n\n\nGerry Quinn:\n\n*Maybe I am. I’m not following any particular school, just using the\ninterpretive methods that seem right to me in the context of\nunderstanding Wolfe. *\n\n\nYou go outside the bounds of New Criticism when you discuss authorial intent." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-12T23:01:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I am. I’m not following any particular school, just using the interpretive methods> that seem right to me in the context of understanding Wolfe. \nYou go outside the bounds of New Criticism when you discuss authorial intent. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if so I guess I mustn’t be a New Critic. - Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF04B5.5070704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-12T23:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 5:42 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nJeff Wilson:\n\n Apollo not a hunter? God of the bow, stalker and slayer of the python,\n tracker of stolen cattle, stalker and taker of infant Hermes,\n relentless\n pursuer of Daphne, co-stalker and co-slayer of Niobe's children,\n cast in\n bronze at his Pompeii temple in the same archery pose as his hunting\n goddess twin sister's bronze at her Pompeii temple? That\n Apollo-not-a-hunter?\n\n\nYou may be overstating your point. Apollo's the god of archery. Wikipedia is as far as you need to go to find that out. Also, when *I* searched for Apollo+Hunter, this was the first link:\nhttp://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/night-hunters-artemis-apollo.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope, no hunting there, Just this:\n\nBoth siblings would become associated with the skill of archery, and \nthey enjoyed hunting together.\n\nIt's definitely a secondary characteristic. But so are boobs." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF29CD.9060306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T02:22:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 2:32 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\nAnd where is the rising sun in the poem? It is not\nmentioned anywhere---there is no \"rising\" depicted whatsoever. \nYou have\ninferred it without realizing it. Where is the sun itself? \nNowhere in\nthe poem at all. If it is there, what does it look like? Does it \nhave a\ndisk? A color? A mien? It might be like a stone in one way, but\notherwise there are no answers. It's not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The Sun is\nnot yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"The Sun is not yet visible.\" Thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You asked “where is the rising sun?” It is just below the horizon. In \na moment we will see it. Already we see its light shining on the \ntower. It is Orion that is nowhere mentioned, nowhere visible, and \nnowhere implied except for your invalid paint-by-numbers insistence \nthat any hunter must somehow be Orion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you claim illiteracy as an advantage of your argument? I suppose you \nhave no choice. But at least we agree that the sun is not yet risen, but \nrather implied. Its rising is imminent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, I looked up “hunter of the east interpretation” in \nGoogle.\nI found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the hunter is\nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No they don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes they do. One says: “The stanza presents two arresting \npersonifications, the first when/Morning/chases the stars away and the \nsecond when the sun,/the Hunter of the East/, lassoes the/Sultan's \nTurret/with a rope of light.” The second (speaking of a third) says \n?/Hunter of the East/somewhat arbitrarily taken to mean \"Eastern \nwisdom, a mighty slayer of delusion\" where 'the Sun' would suffice?. \nNeither mentions Orion anywhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, those are not exactly full explications.\n\nBut the personifications are completely correct. I told you this twice \nand I say it again: the Hunter of the East is, in a way, the sun. Why do \nyou keep arguing about what we agree on? Do you think this strengthens \nyour argument about what we DON'T agree on?\n\nThese comments only support our agreement that the Hunter is the Sun. \nThey don't support your contention that the Hunter is NOT Orion. For \nthat you're on your own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I told you the sun is the Hunter of the East. I told you\nHOW he is the Hunter of the East and how it derives from the\njust-vanished Orion, who is the original Hunter of the East." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is turning into gibberish. You started off by insisting that the \nHunter is Orion, and I told you that the Hunter is the Sun. Now you \nare trying to make out that yes, okay, the Hunter is the Sun, but the \nSun is somehow really Orion. The Hunter is the Sun, period. Orion is \nnot involved here anywhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you're not going to read my posts, just stop talking to me. I have a \nlife outside talking to people who don't listen. Just say \"I refuse to \nexplain myself because I don't need to.\"\n\nAnd I won't hold my breath to hear your theory of how the poem shuts off \nthe obvious Hunter-Orion association so that the sun personification is \nclear as glass and as meaningless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The night\nhunter becomes the day hunter. Do you read posts in their entirety? Do\nyou have an explanation for how the sun is the hunter? No, it's \n\"just so.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did explain it, though it barely needs an explanation. the Sun has \nthrown a noose of light around the tower. The poet sees it as \ncapturing the tower, i.e, hunting it. The Hunter of the East, in fact, \nas distinct from any other hunter such as Orion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha, so the Sun typically hunts towers with a lasso! At last an answer. \nWhy, it must be so. I would have called him the Cowboy of the East, but \nI'm not FitzGerald.\n\nFor the record, I don't necessarily argue that FitzGerald meant to put \ninto the poem a handoff from vanishing Orion to rising Sun (even by way \nof Apollo) that creates the delicate image of vanishing that I see and \nhave described. I don't think he was a great poet but rather a clumsy \nand an almost accidental one. His allusions were both classical and \ncommonplace, and his poems were about as deep as a New Age paperback.\n\nBut he wouldn't have put a sobriquet of a famous summer-dawn \nconstellation in a poem about stars before dawn and expected his readers \nto just ignore it in favor of an almost literal description---one that \nisn't even very evocative when it is read that way." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF3F39.5070506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T03:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBF29CD.9060306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 8:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNow you claim illiteracy as an advantage of your argument? I suppose \nyou have no choice. But at least we agree that the sun is not yet \nrisen, but rather implied. Its rising is imminent. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And *that* is the true common thread between Gerry's criticism of \nWolfe's works and this one.\nThat and the fruitlessness of the debate.\nAnd of course *Gerry's* argument is based on the text, not metaphor or \nconclusive leaps even though the sun is never named in the poem. So a \nfundamental lack of self-awareness is also a common thread here.\n\nHowever, *Morning* is named. Morning throws the stone at the stars. Why \nis not Morning the hunter? Why is the hunter not Eos?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T04:24:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<4EBF04B5.5070704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Apollo not a hunter? God of the bow, stalker and slayer of the python,\ntracker of stolen cattle, stalker and taker of infant Hermes, relentless pursuer of Daphne, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "co-stalker and co-slayer of Niobe's children, cast in bronze at his Pompeii temple in the same \n\narchery pose as his hunting goddess twin sister's bronze at her Pompeii temple? \n\nThat Apollo-not-a-hunter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee: You may be overstating your point. Apollo's the god of archery. Wikipedia is as far " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as you need to go to find that out. Also, when *I* searched for Apollo+Hunter, this was the first link:\nhttp://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/night-hunters-artemis-apollo.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Nope, no hunting there, Just this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both siblings would become associated with the skill of archery, and they enjoyed hunting together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's definitely a secondary characteristic. But so are boobs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI guess that's how I see it. The idea of ever calling Apollo \"The Hunter\" seems to be overstating the \n\ncase. He was an archer and he did some hunting and he did kill a snake once early on. But it wasn't his \n\nlifestyle as it was for his sister. He seems more like a skeet shooter or a British fox hunter- \n\n\"pip, pip and tally-ho!\" or whatever they say. My point is that Apollo was a metrosexual in contrast \n\nto his woodsy huntress sibling and is rarely labeled as a hunter.\n\n \n\nFWIW, the other stuff is really stretching. Apollo didn't track Hermes and his stolen cattle by putting\n\nhis nose to the ground and sniffing. He just consulted an oracle and went where it told him. And\n\nif chasing young men and women around in sexual ardor makes one a Hunter then half the Olympian\n\npantheon fits the bill.\n\n \n\n.............just found-\n\n \n\nWhat we've been pondering was from Fitzgerald's 1st Edition. Just from that, I thought Orion made a \n\nbetter candidate as The Hunter than the sun, but I just found some snips from later versions of \n\nFitzgerald's translation of the Rubiyat with significantly different phrasing. They seem to suggest \n\nthe Stone is the sun, (as usual, Wolfe is right) but also that the Hunter is the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2nd Edition" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wake! for the Sun behind yon Eastern height\nHas Chased the Session of the Stars from Night:\nAnd, to the field of Heav'n ascending, strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Shaft of Light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n4th and 5th Edition" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wake! for the Sun has scatter'd into flight\nThe Stars before him from the Field of Night,\nDrives Night along with them from Heav'n, and strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret with a Shaft of Light" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nhttp://www.victorianweb.org/authors/fitzgerald/rubaiyat.html\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF5647.7070805@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T05:31:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 4:42 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nJeff Wilson:\n\n Apollo not a hunter? God of the bow, stalker and slayer of the python,\n tracker of stolen cattle, stalker and taker of infant Hermes, relentless\n pursuer of Daphne, co-stalker and co-slayer of Niobe's children, cast in\n bronze at his Pompeii temple in the same archery pose as his hunting\n goddess twin sister's bronze at her Pompeii temple? That\n Apollo-not-a-hunter?\n\n\n\nYou may be overstating your point. Apollo's the god of archery. Wikipedia is as far as you need to go to find that out. Also, when *I* searched for Apollo+Hunter, this was the first link:\n\nhttp://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/night-hunters-artemis-apollo.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Google and Wikipedia are valuable reference tools, but the value is in \nhow much subject matter they cover and how accessible they make it. The \nmere fact of a given item's inclusion or its relative popularity there \nmeans little or nothing." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF63FA.8020705@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T06:30:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 10:24 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nFWIW, the other stuff is really stretching. Apollo didn't track Hermes and his stolen cattle by putting\n\nhis nose to the ground and sniffing. He just consulted an oracle and went where it told him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apollo attempted to track the cattle and Hermes conventionally, but \ncould not because Hermes was clever enough to reverse the tracks. \nHermes also was clever enough to hide the cattle in a cave so that \nApollo could not see them from above. If Apollo could just sacrifice a \nlamb, sprinkle grain around a cock, and have it point to the missing \ncattle or the culprit, it would confound the entire point of the origin \nmyth establishing Hermes are a clever, quick-thinking thief.\n\nOf course, Apollo eventually figured it our because he _had_ acquired \ndominion over prophecy if not immediate divination when he had himself \nbeen a clever infant and slain THE Python (a rival of Typhon, so it was \nno pushover) in the very temple of its mistress Gaia at Delphi, so \n*that's* a secondary attribute, while his hunting prowess seems inborn.\n\nAnd there is the small fact that before all these duelling references \nwere writ down by individuals, his actual worshipers were making \nhigh-dollar bronzes of him hunting.\n\nNot that an attribute has to be prominent for a poet to employ it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBF6A1C.8080000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T06:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBF3F39.5070506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 9:53 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nHowever, *Morning* is named. Morning throws the stone at the stars. \nWhy is not Morning the hunter? Why is the hunter not Eos? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "huh. Orion and Eos were an item. Didn't know that. She took him to \nDelos where Artemis killed him under circumstances related to a discus \nmatch (ala Apollo and Hyacinth)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T11:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBF29CD.9060306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nSent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:22 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) Hunter of the East" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 2:32 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\nAnd where is the rising sun in the poem? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The Sun is\nnot yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"The Sun is not yet visible.\" Thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You asked “where is the rising sun?” It is just below the horizon. In \na moment we will see it. Already we see its light shining on the \ntower. It is Orion that is nowhere mentioned, nowhere visible, and \nnowhere implied except for your invalid paint-by-numbers insistence \nthat any hunter must somehow be Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now you claim illiteracy as an advantage of your argument? I suppose you \nhave no choice. But at least we agree that the sun is not yet risen, but \nrather implied. Its rising is imminent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, there is a real sense in which we do see it. Can’t you see someone in your rear-view mirror while driving? When you do, what you are actually seeing a pattern of reflected light that is uniquely characteristic of the person you see. That’s exactly what’s happening in the poem — we are seeing light reflected from the turret that is recognisable and uniquely characteristic (in colour and position and time) of the rising-but-still-under-the horizon Sun. \n\nIt is Orion that is nowhere visible, nowhere present, nowhere implied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the hunter is\nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No they don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes they do. One says: “The stanza presents two arresting \npersonifications, the first when/Morning/chases the stars away and the \nsecond when the sun,/the Hunter of the East/, lassoes the/Sultan's \nTurret/with a rope of light.” The second (speaking of a third) says \n?/Hunter of the East/somewhat arbitrarily taken to mean \"Eastern \nwisdom, a mighty slayer of delusion\" where 'the Sun' would suffice?. \nNeither mentions Orion anywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, those are not exactly full explications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So? They identify the Hunter as the Sun. They don’t mention Orion. I reckon they think it’s so obvious that the Hunter is the Sun that no further explication is needed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the personifications are completely correct. I told you this twice \nand I say it again: the Hunter of the East is, in a way, the sun. Why do \nyou keep arguing about what we agree on? Do you think this strengthens \nyour argument about what we DON'T agree on?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You originally denied the Hunter was the Sun. Now you’re admitting that it is, but you’re trying to insist that somehow you are right too and he is still somehow Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These comments only support our agreement that the Hunter is the Sun. \nThey don't support your contention that the Hunter is NOT Orion. For \nthat you're on your own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have no case for Orion except an insistence that the classical allusion to Orion as Hunter must be significant. All the other arguments that have been put forward for Orion are utterly strained and unbelievable. What exactly would be the *point* of such a content-free allusion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I told you the sun is the Hunter of the East. I told you\nHOW he is the Hunter of the East and how it derives from the\njust-vanished Orion, who is the original Hunter of the East." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I won't hold my breath to hear your theory of how the poem shuts off \nthe obvious Hunter-Orion association so that the sun personification is \nclear as glass and as meaningless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn’t have to shut off anything. It doesn’t have to shut off the association between hunters and Orion, any more than it has to shut off the association between the bowl of night (now the bowl of morning) and breakfast cereal. The reader is supposed to pick up on the metaphors and allusions that are there, and not chase ones that aren’t there. (It could very well be that Fitzgerald worried a little about people getting hung up on irrelevant Orion associations, but decided that the vivid description of the “noose of light” and the specific denotation of the Hunter “of the East” would be enough that attentive readers would not be drawn towards that trap. Maybe he underestimated the attraction of certain readers for such traps.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the record, I don't necessarily argue that FitzGerald meant to put \ninto the poem a handoff from vanishing Orion to rising Sun (even by way \nof Apollo) that creates the delicate image of vanishing that I see and \nhave described. I don't think he was a great poet but rather a clumsy \nand an almost accidental one. His allusions were both classical and \ncommonplace, and his poems were about as deep as a New Age paperback." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haha. Will you abandon Wolfe too, when Hyacinth fails to develop a dick, when Silk-as-faun has run its course into emptiness, when Echidna as Typhon’s sister is finally seen to lead nowhere..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he wouldn't have put a sobriquet of a famous summer-dawn \nconstellation in a poem about stars before dawn and expected his readers \nto just ignore it in favor of an almost literal description---one that \nisn't even very evocative when it is read that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you underestimate him, in at least two ways. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T11:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBF3F39.5070506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/12/2011 8:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNow you claim illiteracy as an advantage of your argument? I suppose \nyou have no choice. But at least we agree that the sun is not yet \nrisen, but rather implied. Its rising is imminent. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And *that* is the true common thread between Gerry's criticism of \nWolfe's works and this one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Answered in my previous post. The rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And of course *Gerry's* argument is based on the text, not metaphor or " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "conclusive leaps even though the sun is never named in the poem. So a \nfundamental lack of self-awareness is also a common thread here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When have I ever objected to metaphor? What I look for, though, are metaphors that are actually present, like the noose of light, which is self-evidently thrown by the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, *Morning* is named. Morning throws the stone at the stars. Why \nis not Morning the hunter? Why is the hunter not Eos?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike Orion, I think a reasonable case could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun imagery seems much stronger. If Fitzgerald had written, say, “bright fingers grasp the turret”, I’d go with Eos. But he’s making up his own metaphor, and it’s a better one IMO.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFC367.7080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T13:17:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And of course *Gerry's* argument is based on the text, not metaphor or\nconclusive leaps even though the sun is never named in the poem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So a fundamental lack of self-awareness is also a common thread here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAnswered in my previous post.\nThe rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to clarify our terms. \"In a real sense\" means \"not\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When have I ever objected to metaphor? What I look for, though, are \nmetaphors that are actually present, like the noose of light, which is \nself-evidently thrown by the Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In classical cosmology, the Sun is the god that *rules* the day. It's \ndoesn't cause it. That is why we can have a separate god that \npersonifies \"the Dawn\" and why Khayyam can speak of Morning throwing a \nstone. The Sun is as incidental (given the reference to Morning) as any \nother celestial object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, *Morning* is named. Morning throws the stone at the stars. Why" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is not Morning the hunter? Why is the hunter not Eos?\n\nEos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike Orion, I think a \nreasonable case could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun imagery seems \nmuch stronger. If Fitzgerald had written, say, \"bright fingers grasp \nthe turret\", I'd go with Eos. But he's making up his own metaphor, \nand it's a better one IMO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the Dawn's \"rosy \nfingers\"? Now you are using knowledge of classical literature to \nbuttress your interpretation. But that is totally legitimate because YOU \nare doing it.\nI don't recall anywhere that the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or \nlariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<96AAE7CF1C604624A4B6CDAD1244351F@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T13:40:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFC367.7080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Answered in my previous post. \nThe rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion.\nJust to clarify our terms. \"In a real sense\" means \"not\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you don’t agree that it’s possible to see something in a mirror, or in general by its reflection? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When have I ever objected to metaphor? What I look for, though, are \nmetaphors that are actually present, like the noose of light, which is \nself-evidently thrown by the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In classical cosmology, the Sun is the god that *rules* the day. It's doesn't \ncause it. That is why we can have a separate god that personifies \"the Dawn\" \nand why Khayyam can speak of Morning throwing a stone. The Sun is as\n incidental (given the reference to Morning) as any other celestial object." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " We’re discussing Fitzgerald’s poem, not classical cosmology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, *Morning* is named. Morning throws the stone at the stars. Why \nis not Morning the hunter? Why is the hunter not Eos?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike Orion, I think a reasonable \ncase could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun imagery seems much stronger. \nIf Fitzgerald had written, say, “bright fingers grasp the turret”, I’d go with Eos. \nBut he’s making up his own metaphor, and it’s a better one IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the Dawn's \"rosy fingers\"? Now\n you are using knowledge of classical literature to buttress your interpretation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, because the well-known association is there, unlike the case in the poem where were are talking about a noose. The noose is apparently a new metaphor dreamt up by Fitzgerald; it has no classical associations that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But that is totally legitimate because YOU are doing it. I don't recall anywhere \nthat the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or lariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s not — I interpret the poem on its own terms. If the poem had referred to the Huntsman’s starry sword, I’d have no hesitation in saying the Huntsman is Orion. But he’s the Huntsman of the East, and he throws a noose of sunlight, so he’s obviously the rising Sun.\n\nIt’s not rocket science.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFD15D.1070402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T14:17:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<96AAE7CF1C604624A4B6CDAD1244351F@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 7:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Answered in my previous post.\nThe rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just to clarify our terms. \"In a real sense\" means \"not\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you don't agree that it's possible to see something in a mirror, or \nin general by its reflection?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a \nrefection, all your own. You are creating your own poem here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When have I ever objected to metaphor? What I look for, though, are\nmetaphors that are actually present, like the noose of light, which is\nself-evidently thrown by the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In classical cosmology, the Sun is the god that *rules* the day. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's doesn't\ncause it. That is why we can have a separate god that personifies \n\"the Dawn\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and why Khayyam can speak of Morning throwing a stone. The Sun is as\n incidental (given the reference to Morning) as any other celestial \nobject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " We're discussing Fitzgerald's poem, not classical cosmology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Eos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike Orion, I think a \nreasonable\ncase could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun imagery seems much \nstronger.\nIf Fitzgerald had written, say, \"bright fingers grasp the turret\", \nI'd go with Eos.\nBut he's making up his own metaphor, and it's a better one IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the Dawn's \"rosy \nfingers\"? Now\n you are using knowledge of classical literature to buttress your \ninterpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, because the well-known association is there, unlike the case in \nthe poem where were are talking about a noose. The noose is \napparently a new metaphor dreamt up by Fitzgerald; it has no classical \nassociations that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that is totally legitimate because YOU are doing it. I don't \nrecall anywhere\nthat the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or lariats. (Sun as \ncowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not -- I interpret the poem on its own terms. If the poem had \nreferred to the Huntsman's starry sword, I'd have no hesitation in \nsaying the Huntsman is Orion. But he's the Huntsman of the East, and \nhe throws a noose of sunlight, so he's obviously the rising Sun.\nIt's not rocket science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "o...m...g.\n\nSo, for literature written at any time in history, it is a legitimate \nclassical reference if Gerry knows about it. Gerry already knows every \nclassical reference that matters. The ones he knows are overridingly \nimportant. The ones he doesn't know, he's not going to learn because \nthat would be pointless. AND it is a legitimate reference if it suddenly \noccurs to Gerry at the time. All other references \"lesser-legitimate\".\nCool. Glad we've nailed that down at last." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFD401.4070301@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T14:28:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFC367.7080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 7:17 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI don't recall anywhere that the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or\nlariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello? Sacred cattle of the sun?\n\nSundogs are among several luminous circular phenomena associated with \nthe sun, and could be seen as nooses by ancient peoples.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T14:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFD401.4070301@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Haha. Will you abandon Wolfe too, when Hyacinth fails to develop a dick, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "when Silk-as-faun has run its course into emptiness, when Echidna as Typhon’s sister is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "finally seen to lead nowhere..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of dicks... (\"haha\", indeed) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T14:48:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFD15D.1070402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/13/2011 7:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: \n From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Answered in my previous post. \nThe rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion.\nJust to clarify our terms. \"In a real sense\" means \"not\". " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you don’t agree that it’s possible to see something in a mirror, or in general by its reflection? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a refection, all your own.\n You are creating your own poem here. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The “noose of light” around the turret is reflected sunlight. It’s not exactly a conventional mirror, but when you see it you *are* seeing the Sun. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the Dawn's \"rosy fingers\"? Now\n you are using knowledge of classical literature to buttress your interpretation. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, because the well-known association is there, unlike the case in the poem\n where were are talking about a noose. The noose is apparently a new \nmetaphor dreamt up by Fitzgerald; it has no classical associations that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But that is totally legitimate because YOU are doing it. I don't recall anywhere \nthat the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or lariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It’s not — I interpret the poem on its own terms. If the poem had referred to the \nHuntsman’s starry sword, I’d have no hesitation in saying the Huntsman is Orion.\n But he’s the Huntsman of the East, and he throws a noose of sunlight, so he’s \nobviously the rising Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "o...m...g.\n\nSo, for literature written at any time in history, it is a legitimate classical reference\n if Gerry knows about it. Gerry already knows every classical reference that matters.\n The ones he knows are overridingly important. The ones he doesn't know, he's not \ngoing to learn because that would be pointless. AND it is a legitimate reference if \nit suddenly occurs to Gerry at the time. All other references \"lesser-legitimate\". \nCool. Glad we've nailed that down at last." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s all nonsense and you know it. I am sure I am not as au fait with classical references as some, but I am perfectly well aware of the references to Orion as huntsman, and Dawn’s rosy fingers. It doesn’t mean I draw up some mindless program where any reference to a hunter must needs involve Orion, or whatever. What bit of the word *interpretation* do you not understand?\n\nI’m not saying Orion isn’t there because I didn’t ever hear of Orion the hunter, or because I didn’t think of it first. I’m saying Orion isn’t there because the Sun as Hunter metaphor works given the imagery in the poem, and because there is no Orion imagery there that works.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFD8BF.4080301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T14:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFD401.4070301@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 7:17 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't recall anywhere that the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or\nlariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHello? Sacred cattle of the sun?\nSundogs are among several luminous circular phenomena associated with \nthe sun, and could be seen as nooses by ancient peoples.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very clever indeed! You, my friend, are on a roll." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFEB16.2050307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T16:06:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vanished people=Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2011 11:24 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n.............just found-\n\n\n\nWhat we've been pondering was from Fitzgerald's 1st Edition. Just from that, I thought Orion made a\n\nbetter candidate as The Hunter than the sun, but I just found some snips from later versions of\n\nFitzgerald's translation of the Rubiyat with significantly different phrasing. They seem to suggest\n\nthe Stone is the sun, (as usual, Wolfe is right) but also that the Hunter is the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2nd Edition\nWake! for the Sun behind yon Eastern height\nHas Chased the Session of the Stars from Night:\nAnd, to the field of Heav'n ascending, strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret in a Shaft of Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4th and 5th Edition" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wake! for the Sun has scatter'd into flight\nThe Stars before him from the Field of Night,\nDrives Night along with them from Heav'n, and strikes\nThe Sultan's Turret with a Shaft of Light" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sun clearly takes center stage, but since the stone-bowl metaphor is \nentirely gone it's hard to argue from this that the sun is a stone. \nSimilarly, both versions are martial, not hunting-related, so one can't \ndeduce anything about a Hunter either. Still, I see what you mean: Venus \nwas never anything but a device if it was intended at all.\n\nI think it's very telling that FItzGerald must have thought his first \nversion inferior, but I find it much more interesting. I think that's \nbecause its images are much less direct and more ambiguous than here. \nMuch less literal and far better suited to Wolfe's purpose." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFECE9.7060506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T16:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 6:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:22 AM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* (urth) Hunter of the East\nOn 11/12/2011 2:32 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\nAnd where is the rising sun in the poem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Come on — you are not seriously making such an argument? The \nSun is\nnot yet visible, but its rays shining on the top of a tower are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"The Sun is not yet visible.\" Thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You asked “where is the rising sun?” It is just below the horizon. In\na moment we will see it. Already we see its light shining on the\ntower. It is Orion that is nowhere mentioned, nowhere visible, and\nnowhere implied except for your invalid paint-by-numbers insistence\nthat any hunter must somehow be Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now you claim illiteracy as an advantage of your argument? I suppose \nyou\nhave no choice. But at least we agree that the sun is not yet risen, \nbut\nrather implied. Its rising is imminent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, there is a real sense in which we do see it. Can’t you see \nsomeone in your rear-view mirror while driving? When you do, what you \nare actually seeing a pattern of reflected light that is uniquely \ncharacteristic of the person you see. That’s exactly what’s happening \nin the poem — we are seeing light reflected from the turret that is \nrecognisable and uniquely characteristic (in colour and position and \ntime) of the rising-but-still-under-the horizon Sun.\nIt is Orion that is nowhere visible, nowhere present, nowhere implied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I found two interpretations. Both agreed with me that the \nhunter is\nthe Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No they don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes they do. One says: “The stanza presents two arresting\npersonifications, the first when/Morning/chases the stars away and \nthe\nsecond when the sun,/the Hunter of the East/, lassoes the/Sultan's\nTurret/with a rope of light.” The second (speaking of a third) says\n?/Hunter of the East/somewhat arbitrarily taken to mean \"Eastern\nwisdom, a mighty slayer of delusion\" where 'the Sun' would suffice?.\nNeither mentions Orion anywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry, those are not exactly full explications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So? They identify the Hunter as the Sun. They don’t mention Orion. I \nreckon they think it’s so obvious that the Hunter is the Sun that no \nfurther explication is needed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the personifications are completely correct. I told you this twice\nand I say it again: the Hunter of the East is, in a way, the sun. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do\nyou keep arguing about what we agree on? Do you think this strengthens\nyour argument about what we DON'T agree on?\nYou originally denied the Hunter was the Sun. Now you’re admitting \nthat it is, but you’re trying to insist that somehow you are right too \nand he is still somehow Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These comments only support our agreement that the Hunter is the Sun.\nThey don't support your contention that the Hunter is NOT Orion. For\nthat you're on your own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have no case for Orion except an insistence that the classical \nallusion to Orion as Hunter must be significant. All the other \narguments that have been put forward for Orion are utterly strained \nand unbelievable. What exactly would be the *point* of such a \ncontent-free allusion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I told you the sun is the Hunter of the East. I told you\nHOW he is the Hunter of the East and how it derives from the\njust-vanished Orion, who is the original Hunter of the East." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I won't hold my breath to hear your theory of how the poem shuts \noff\nthe obvious Hunter-Orion association so that the sun personification is\nclear as glass and as meaningless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn’t have to shut off anything. It doesn’t have to shut off the \nassociation between hunters and Orion, any more than it has to shut \noff the association between the bowl of night (now the bowl of \nmorning) and breakfast cereal. The reader is supposed to pick up on \nthe metaphors and allusions that are there, and not chase ones that \naren’t there. (It could very well be that Fitzgerald worried a little \nabout people getting hung up on irrelevant Orion associations, but \ndecided that the vivid description of the “noose of light” and the \nspecific denotation of the Hunter “of the East” would be enough that \nattentive readers would not be drawn towards that trap. Maybe he \nunderestimated the attraction of certain readers for such traps.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the record, I don't necessarily argue that FitzGerald meant to put\ninto the poem a handoff from vanishing Orion to rising Sun (even by way\nof Apollo) that creates the delicate image of vanishing that I see and\nhave described. I don't think he was a great poet but rather a clumsy\nand an almost accidental one. His allusions were both classical and\ncommonplace, and his poems were about as deep as a New Age paperback." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Haha. Will you abandon Wolfe too, when Hyacinth fails to develop a \ndick, when Silk-as-faun has run its course into emptiness, when \nEchidna as Typhon’s sister is finally seen to lead nowhere..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I'm just going to let your generally assholish behavior here \nspeak for itself. James has already nailed you. How you got this far \nwithout the ability to absorb complete paragraphs, I'll let others \npuzzle out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFEFBE.3080001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T16:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFD15D.1070402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 9:17 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/13/2011 7:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Answered in my previous post.\nThe rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible in the poem. Unlike Orion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Just to clarify our terms. \"In a real sense\" means \"not\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you don’t agree that it’s possible to see something in a mirror, \nor in general by its reflection?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a \nrefection, all your own. You are creating your own poem here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "When have I ever objected to metaphor? What I look for, though, are\nmetaphors that are actually present, like the noose of light, \nwhich is\nself-evidently thrown by the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In classical cosmology, the Sun is the god that *rules* the day. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's doesn't\ncause it. That is why we can have a separate god that personifies \n\"the Dawn\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and why Khayyam can speak of Morning throwing a stone. The Sun is as\nincidental (given the reference to Morning) as any other celestial \nobject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " We’re discussing Fitzgerald’s poem, not classical cosmology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Eos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike Orion, I think a \nreasonable\ncase could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun imagery seems much \nstronger.\nIf Fitzgerald had written, say, “bright fingers grasp the turret”, \nI’d go with Eos.\nBut he’s making up his own metaphor, and it’s a better one IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the Dawn's \"rosy \nfingers\"? Now\nyou are using knowledge of classical literature to buttress your \ninterpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, because the well-known association is there, unlike the case in \nthe poem where were are talking about a noose. The noose is \napparently a new metaphor dreamt up by Fitzgerald; it has no \nclassical associations that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But that is totally legitimate because YOU are doing it. I don't \nrecall anywhere\nthat the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or lariats. (Sun as \ncowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It’s not — I interpret the poem on its own terms. If the poem had \nreferred to the Huntsman’s starry sword, I’d have no hesitation in \nsaying the Huntsman is Orion. But he’s the Huntsman of the East, and \nhe throws a noose of sunlight, so he’s obviously the rising Sun.\nIt’s not rocket science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "o...m...g.\n\nSo, for literature written at any time in history, it is a legitimate \nclassical reference if Gerry knows about it. Gerry already knows every \nclassical reference that matters. The ones he knows are overridingly \nimportant. The ones he doesn't know, he's not going to learn because \nthat would be pointless. AND it is a legitimate reference if it \nsuddenly occurs to Gerry at the time. All other references \n\"lesser-legitimate\".\nCool. Glad we've nailed that down at last." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Gerry know that the \"starry sword\" is about the one weapon Orion \ndoes NOT use? He is imagined with club, bow, staff, scythe, maybe even \nnet, and so on (not that the pre-Wiki, Victorian Homo sapiens knew all \nthis), but the short sword is ALWAYS at his side. So it would be pretty \nfreaky for him to use it on a tower." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EBFFC82.1000102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T17:21:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFEFBE.3080001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've searched Moonmilk on this with no result. Has there been any \ndiscussion of why Sand twice calls Violet \"Plutonium\"?\n\nNote that Violet is suspected to be a (native Vironese) Trivigaunti spy. \nAlso, Sand has at this point been killed and resurrected. So it's hard \nto guess whether he is malfunctioning or has been enlightened in some \nway---whether he correctly or incorrectly sees Violet as a chem---or \nsomething else. (Or maybe he has acquired a chem sense of humor. \nPlutonium fluoride forms violet crystals.)\n\nWhat bothers me is that Siyuf herself later appears as a chem double. Up \nto that point, the reader has no particular idea that chems can actually \nfake being human, to the point that the Ayuntamiento decides to send the \nfake Siyuf home in her place---and apparently succeeds though their plan \nfails.\n\nIt's one thing if Orchid hired a chem to pleasure chem guests the way a \nbrothel might hire boys and girls for different tastes (although \napparently she did not hire boys). But how could Siyuf have not been \nable to tell, and if she could, would she have been \"into it\"? Where did \nthese crypto-chems come from, and what do they mean? Are there others? \nDo they need brain scans of humans to give them the self-identity to act \nas doubles?\n\nChems, or at least soldiers, are unknown in Trivigaunti. So perhaps \nSiyuf just doesn't know what to look for, or she enjoys the novelty. Is \nWolfe just covering his butt, showing us that the chem Siyuf would have \nbeen able to pass the Minister of War's, er, personal Turing test (she \nbeing her lover)?\n\nOr does he simply insist that the soul is more important than the body, \nalways? Am I suffering from robot racism to even raise these questions? :D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11F069DDB84E4E1DAD6860C3BACF9BDF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T19:29:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFECE9.7060506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, I'm just going to let your generally assholish behavior here \nspeak for itself. James has already nailed you. How you got this far \nwithout the ability to absorb complete paragraphs, I'll let others \npuzzle out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, call me illiterate - and then get all butt-hurt when I question a vein of criticism that blames the artist for failing to include the metaphors deemed perfect by the critic.\nI won’t play Polonius to your sky-whales.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3638B0BB-F052-4CC2-98A3-7C5FA0D4D5A4@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-13T20:54:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFFC82.1000102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/13, ?s 17:21, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What bothers me is that Siyuf herself later appears as a chem \ndouble. Up to that point, the reader has no particular idea that \nchems can actually fake being human, to the point that the \nAyuntamiento decides to send the fake Siyuf home in her place---and \napparently succeeds though their plan fails." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite otherwise. The reader has by then witnessed in shock the \nunmasking of the chem councillors. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC03481.8000900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T21:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<3638B0BB-F052-4CC2-98A3-7C5FA0D4D5A4@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 3:54 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/11/13, ?s 17:21, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What bothers me is that Siyuf herself later appears as a chem double. \nUp to that point, the reader has no particular idea that chems can \nactually fake being human, to the point that the Ayuntamiento decides \nto send the fake Siyuf home in her place---and apparently succeeds \nthough their plan fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quite otherwise. The reader has by then witnessed in shock the \nunmasking of the chem councillors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite otherwise at all. The reader does not sleep with the \ncouncillors. Of course, we're not just talking about fooling readers, \nare we, um, er, hey?\n\nThe councillors were never very convincing as humans---Patera Quetzal \nkept his secret longer. Lemur reveals his status almost as soon as we \nmeet him. None of the Ayuntamiento ever went out in public anyway, so \nthey had little need to work at fooling anyone and if they did it it's \nnot shown. They didn't live in deep cover as Siyuf and Violet do.\n\nAnd the Siyuf double does not have a real Siyuf lying in bed controlling \nher. Lemur's death shows us how NOT to do it that way. The Ayuntamiento \ncouldn't just whip another Councillor off the assembly line, could it? \nSilk had to bargain with a talusmaker just to get taluses.\n\nSo how was Siyuf 2 built? What kind of tech do the Councillors have, \nexactly? Scanning? Instant facial replication? Is this not worth knowing?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC03778.90405@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-13T21:32:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC03481.8000900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it was you who developed the story several steps forward (to hypothetic\nmeeting between Siyuf and war minister at Trivigaunte). I think her uses\ndescribed in the text are only \"tactical\" - during the fighting in Viron.\n\nBy the way, the technology used to create chem \"doubles\" of councillors \nseems\nmore advanced than to create ordinary chems. Also we know\nvery little about chem officers (but we see that the capacities\nof Sand are greater than of soldiers)\n\n\nMy impression concerning \"Plutonium\" is that Wolfe wanted\nto show us that chems are able to \"flirt\" and joke. Sand understands very\nwell that Violet is human but since he thinks that she is\nViron spy (or double agent) - works FOR Viron, he makes a good-hearted \njoke.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/13/2011 3:54 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 2011/11/13, ?s 17:21, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What bothers me is that Siyuf herself later appears as a chem \ndouble. Up to that point, the reader has no particular idea that \nchems can actually fake being human, to the point that the \nAyuntamiento decides to send the fake Siyuf home in her place---and \napparently succeeds though their plan fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quite otherwise. The reader has by then witnessed in shock the \nunmasking of the chem councillors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not quite otherwise at all. The reader does not sleep with the \ncouncillors. Of course, we're not just talking about fooling readers, \nare we, um, er, hey?\n\nThe councillors were never very convincing as humans---Patera Quetzal \nkept his secret longer. Lemur reveals his status almost as soon as we \nmeet him. None of the Ayuntamiento ever went out in public anyway, so \nthey had little need to work at fooling anyone and if they did it it's \nnot shown. They didn't live in deep cover as Siyuf and Violet do.\n\nAnd the Siyuf double does not have a real Siyuf lying in bed \ncontrolling her. Lemur's death shows us how NOT to do it that way. The \nAyuntamiento couldn't just whip another Councillor off the assembly \nline, could it? Silk had to bargain with a talusmaker just to get \ntaluses.\n\nSo how was Siyuf 2 built? What kind of tech do the Councillors have, \nexactly? Scanning? Instant facial replication? Is this not worth knowing?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC03B0E.4070905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-13T21:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC03778.90405@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 4:32 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBut it was you who developed the story several steps forward (to \nhypothetic\nmeeting between Siyuf and war minister at Trivigaunte). I think her uses\ndescribed in the text are only \"tactical\" - during the fighting in Viron." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My post was mainly about Violet sleeping with Siyuf. If Violet is a chem \nwho fooled Siyuf, then the Minister would not be a danger to Siyuf 2. If \nshe is not, then one can only wonder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, the technology used to create chem \"doubles\" of \ncouncillors seems\nmore advanced than to create ordinary chems. Also we know\nvery little about chem officers (but we see that the capacities\nof Sand are greater than of soldiers)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. That's not by the way at all---it seems like a strong argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My impression concerning \"Plutonium\" is that Wolfe wanted\nto show us that chems are able to \"flirt\" and joke. Sand understands very\nwell that Violet is human but since he thinks that she is\nViron spy (or double agent) - works FOR Viron, he makes a \ngood-hearted joke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. That was my assumption for about 20 years, but rereading about \nSiyuf 2 got me thinking---always dangerous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/13/2011 3:54 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No dia 2011/11/13, ?s 17:21, David Stockhoff \n escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What bothers me is that Siyuf herself later appears as a chem \ndouble. Up to that point, the reader has no particular idea that \nchems can actually fake being human, to the point that the \nAyuntamiento decides to send the fake Siyuf home in her place---and \napparently succeeds though their plan fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Quite otherwise. The reader has by then witnessed in shock the \nunmasking of the chem councillors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not quite otherwise at all. The reader does not sleep with the \ncouncillors. Of course, we're not just talking about fooling readers, \nare we, um, er, hey?\n\nThe councillors were never very convincing as humans---Patera Quetzal \nkept his secret longer. Lemur reveals his status almost as soon as we \nmeet him. None of the Ayuntamiento ever went out in public anyway, so \nthey had little need to work at fooling anyone and if they did it \nit's not shown. They didn't live in deep cover as Siyuf and Violet do.\n\nAnd the Siyuf double does not have a real Siyuf lying in bed \ncontrolling her. Lemur's death shows us how NOT to do it that way. \nThe Ayuntamiento couldn't just whip another Councillor off the \nassembly line, could it? Silk had to bargain with a talusmaker just \nto get taluses.\n\nSo how was Siyuf 2 built? What kind of tech do the Councillors have, \nexactly? Scanning? Instant facial replication? Is this not worth \nknowing?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T00:52:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFEFBE.3080001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I interpret the poem on its own terms. If the poem had \nreferred to the Huntsman’s starry sword, I’d have no hesitation in \nsaying the Huntsman is Orion. But he’s the Huntsman of the East, and \nhe throws a noose of sunlight, so he’s obviously the rising Sun.\nIt’s not rocket science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Gerry know that the \"starry sword\" is about the one weapon Orion \ndoes NOT use? He is imagined with club, bow, staff, scythe, maybe even \nnet, and so on (not that the pre-Wiki, Victorian Homo sapiens knew all \nthis), but the short sword is ALWAYS at his side. So it would be pretty \nfreaky for him to use it on a tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said “if the poem had referred to the sword”. Nothing about whether it is referred to as being used to attack a tower, or being used for anything at all. The point is, a starry sword would be an example of an Orion reference. But instead, the Huntsman has Sun references.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T00:56:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFFC82.1000102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've searched Moonmilk on this with no result. Has there been any \ndiscussion of why Sand twice calls Violet \"Plutonium\"? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall him saying “Sure, Plutonium” a couple of times... didn’t notice who he was saying it to. I took it as just a thing he said, kind of like “Sure, boss”, or for emphasis. If it is to the same person, that’s interesting, though it’s not obvious what to make of it.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC08694.6080602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T03:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC03778.90405@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev wrote:\nBy the way, the technology used to create chem \"doubles\" of \ncouncillors seems\nmore advanced than to create ordinary chems. Also we know\nvery little about chem officers (but we see that the capacities\nof Sand are greater than of soldiers)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. The councilors and their chems have the technology to \nconvert chems. No one has the technology to create new chems (only \nrepair them--they can build taluses however, but the brown mechanic says \nhe has limits to what he can do to repair chems). Converting them to \nlook like specific people is simple movie magic since their features are \ncreated by a plastic type mold (the specific words escape me) overlaying \na metal base.\n\nThe tricky part for the councilors was connecting the chems \nconsciousness to the the living councilors. This is easier to do than it \nmight appear because (I propose) chems were made to receive the scanned, \nmemory wiped souls of bios just as the Mainframe is received the scanned \nsouls of Typhon's family and inner court. That is why Lemur's chem (soul \noverwritten when he connected to Lemur) continued to live with Lemur's \nscan after bio Lemur had died. And why Rose's hands inadvertently \nabsorbed Rose's consciousness (this is the emphatic clue that Rose's \nprosthetics are chem parts and not \"ordinary\" prosthetics).\n\nNow, David's Violet-Plutonium explanation is very nice. How was Siyuf \nfooled? She couldn't have been. She would have to have only been \npretending to use Violet's services in order to debrief her and give her \ninstructions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC092DE.2070801@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T04:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EBFD8BF.4080301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/13/2011 7:17 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't recall anywhere that the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or\nlariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHello? Sacred cattle of the sun?\nSundogs are among several luminous circular phenomena associated with\nthe sun, and could be seen as nooses by ancient peoples.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very clever indeed! You, my friend, are on a roll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I live in a pretty rural area, so it's often handy to explain how my \nmore egg-headed interests aren't so far fetched after all. Just Friday, \nI was wowing 'em with how clowning is actually the oldest part of the \nrodeo going back to Minoan bull dancers 4500 years ago, while stirrups \nand the events that depend on them are only about 1700 years old...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC09305.8040501@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T04:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 8:48 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n > The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a\nrefection, all your own.\n > You are creating your own poem here.\nThe “noose of light” around the turret is reflected sunlight. It’s not\nexactly a conventional mirror, but when you see it you *are* seeing the\nSun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are reaching here, Gerry, and if it's to make a point that \npoint is eluding me.\n\nThere might be a reflected image of the sun visible *in* the surface of \na turret, but I don't see how the reflection could surround the turret \nwithout some further, smooth background object to cast the reflection. \nIf the sunlight need only be reflected by anything to count as letting \nthe observer see the sun, then *everything* not self-luminous shows us \nthe sun, and the distinction of the noose is meaningless.\n\nPerhaps the noose is the circular limb of the solar disc itself, or the \nrefractory halo in the atmosphere, with the suiltan's turret silhouetted \nagainst it. Some representative photos:\n\nhttp://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111112.html\n\nhttp://www.upiu.com/other/2011/03/19/Ecuador-atmospheric-phenomena-seen-around-the-sun/UPIU-1301300519322/\n\n(this last includes a sundog mentioned earlier, but the central area of \nluminosity is what I had in mind)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T13:28:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC09305.8040501@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/13/2011 8:48 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n > The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a\nrefection, all your own.\n > You are creating your own poem here.\nThe “noose of light” around the turret is reflected sunlight. It’s not\nexactly a conventional mirror, but when you see it you *are* seeing the\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are reaching here, Gerry, and if it's to make a point that \npoint is eluding me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two different issues here. The first is what the poet means by “noose of light” and the second is the question of whether the Sun is actually present, or to what degree its presence and relevance are implied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There might be a reflected image of the sun visible *in* the surface of \na turret, but I don't see how the reflection could surround the turret \nwithout some further, smooth background object to cast the reflection. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are correct in that the “noose” cannot really stretch all the way around the tower. But don’t forget that the viewer can only see 180 degrees, and can imagine the rest.\n\nI had a quick glance at Google images — the large skyscraper at centre right in the image below is close to the sort of image I was thinking of, even though the “noose” is incomplete. But maybe the hunter is pulling from the right and the noose does not contact the beast’s neck there! \n http://photholic.com/sky/tokyo-tower-at-dawn/\n\nI thought of this imagery right away for “noose of light”. Maybe I’m getting what the poet meant, or maybe I’m more idiosyncratic than I supposed.\n\n\nOkay, now the question of seeing the Sun:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the sunlight need only be reflected by anything to count as letting \nthe observer see the sun, then *everything* not self-luminous shows us \nthe sun, and the distinction of the noose is meaningless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There’s been a fair amount of philosophical discussion regarding the epistemology of what it means to see someone or something. Let’s not go there! I think, however, most would agree that to see something means, in general, to be reliably informed of that thing’s presence by a visual signal emanating from it. [Of course there can be a billion nuances.]\n\nI used the example of a mirror as a case where no light from something impinges on our eyes, and yet almost everyone would agree that we see the thing, almost as if we saw it head on. A periscope would be another example. In one sense the soldier in the trench cannot see the enemy; in another sense he can see them very well using his periscope. What if he can only see their uniforms, and cannot see the skin of an actual enemy? We start to decide whether he can see the enemy in terms of the *reliability* of the connection of what he sees to the presence and location of the enemy. We are worried that they may have placed their uniforms on sticks and are quietly approaching the trench from another direction. In this case, the soldier is not actually seeing the enemy at all — he only thinks he is. And that would apply also if he could use his eyes directly — though the enemy might be less likely to get away with it.\n\nSimilar considerations apply to all the senses. Does the mouse hear the cat when he hears its bell?\n\nOkay, back to the Sun and the light it shines on the Sultan’s Turret. My argument is that the light is of a colour and configuration that is characteristic of the rising Sun and of nothing else (okay, it could be a nuclear detonation in the desert, or an elaborate light-show contrived to fool us, but such things are unlikely). We see it and we reliably and specifically know the exact direction of the Sun, and it’s condition and actions (it is about to rise). \n\nOne can debate, I suppose, about whether we “see” the Sun here. But the question originally asked was “where is the rising sun in the poem”. I say it is just there, over the horizon in that direction. We will see it in a moment and its effects already dominate everything we see, from the pale morning sky that has replaced the bowl of night with its stars, to the light shining around the tops of towers, which the over-imaginative may see as a noose. The Sun is unequivocally *present* in the poem; it is everywhere in it.\n\nAnd I do not believe that is the case with Orion. Certainly he is known to be among the vanquished stars, and the astronomically inclined can probable point in a particular direction, depending on the time of year. But is he a presence, any more than (say) Sagittarius or the Milky Way? I don’t think so, and I don’t think the mere use of the word “Hunter” is enough to bring him into the picture. I guess one reason I feel so strongly about that is that I think I “get” the “noose of light” imagery, and once one accepts that the noose of light is cast by the Sun, it makes even less sense to me to be thinking about Orion since “Hunter” is completely explained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the noose is the circular limb of the solar disc itself, or the \nrefractory halo in the atmosphere, with the suiltan's turret silhouetted \nagainst it. Some representative photos:\n\nhttp://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111112.html\n\nhttp://www.upiu.com/other/2011/03/19/Ecuador-atmospheric-phenomena-seen-around-the-sun/UPIU-301300519322/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These don’t really work well for me. The first one isn’t really a noose, and apart from that it could be around anything, not especially the high tower implied by “Sultan’s Turret”. In fact, we would expect it to be, at least at first, around a low object.\n\nThe second is more of a noose, but the Sun does not often have such a halo, and it’s even suggested in the link that you would expect to see it at midday rather than dawn.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC11D97.6000008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T13:54:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC08694.6080602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 11/13/2011 10:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:much" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev wrote:\nBy the way, the technology used to create chem \"doubles\" of \ncouncillors seems\nmore advanced than to create ordinary chems. Also we know\nvery little about chem officers (but we see that the capacities\nof Sand are greater than of soldiers)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. The councilors and their chems have the technology \nto convert chems. No one has the technology to create new chems (only \nrepair them--they can build taluses however, but the brown mechanic \nsays he has limits to what he can do to repair chems). Converting them \nto look like specific people is simple movie magic since their \nfeatures are created by a plastic type mold (the specific words escape \nme) overlaying a metal base." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, although how do you make a mold without the target knowing \nit? Same with any scanning. I'll admit we now know that there are only \nabout 80 facial types, so maybe a good technician could slap a \nconvincing face together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The tricky part for the councilors was connecting the chems \nconsciousness to the the living councilors. This is easier to do than \nit might appear because (I propose) chems were made to receive the \nscanned, memory wiped souls of bios just as the Mainframe is received \nthe scanned souls of Typhon's family and inner court. That is why \nLemur's chem (soul overwritten when he connected to Lemur) continued \nto live with Lemur's scan after bio Lemur had died. And why Rose's \nhands inadvertently absorbed Rose's consciousness (this is the \nemphatic clue that Rose's prosthetics are chem parts and not \n\"ordinary\" prosthetics).\n\nNow, David's Violet-Plutonium explanation is very nice. How was Siyuf \nfooled? She couldn't have been. She would have to have only been \npretending to use Violet's services in order to debrief her and give \nher instructions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aha! And then Violet could stay with Siyuf 2 to do the same for her, \nalthough whatever was planned didn't work to control her.\n\nBut I'm still skeptical. It's one of those mysteries where the minimal \nexplanation doesn't seem adequate but the maximal one is too much. But \nat least we know why plutonium = violet, and the joke for Wolfe might \nsimply be that the nickname works better the other way around for \nhumans, but works very well for chems.\n\nThe median path might be that Sand's flirty joke is supposed to tell us \nsomething about Sand. He behaves in a very commanding, deliberate way \nafter Auk resurrects him and he appears to be operating on his own with \nhis own \"knot.\" Has he changed?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC11FD9.6080409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T14:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC11D97.6000008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 7:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe median path might be that Sand's flirty joke is supposed to tell \nus something about Sand. He behaves in a very commanding, deliberate \nway after Auk resurrects him and he appears to be operating on his own \nwith his own \"knot.\" Has he changed? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, I originally assumed the name thing was evidence that of \na glitch after Sand's repair. But that does not mean (as I suspected) \nthat Sand's error was not also based on some unobvious truth. That is \nthe Way of the Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC125D1.6010002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T14:29:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC11FD9.6080409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 9:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/14/2011 7:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The median path might be that Sand's flirty joke is supposed to tell \nus something about Sand. He behaves in a very commanding, deliberate \nway after Auk resurrects him and he appears to be operating on his \nown with his own \"knot.\" Has he changed? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the record, I originally assumed the name thing was evidence that \nof a glitch after Sand's repair. But that does not mean (as I \nsuspected) that Sand's error was not also based on some unobvious \ntruth. That is the Way of the Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Say it, brother.\n\nLee's comment suggests to me that, since plutonium is never otherwise \nmentioned but may well be the source of chem energy (i.e., they have \nnuclear powerplants in the mode of Iron Man's suit), that Sand may be \ncalling Violet something like \"my heart.\" Whether that is flirty or an \nexpression of true love I don't know.\n\nPerhaps Sand, who has no chem girlfriend I can recall, has \"switched \nteams\" and now \"thinks\" he's human and likes human girls. Perhaps he is \npossessed, although I couldn't guess by whom, or doubled. Another \nsubplot that you'd expect to have received more ink if it meant something.\n\nSpeculation and mirrors." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC1573F.30509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T18:00:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC11D97.6000008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 7:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\naha! And then Violet could stay with Siyuf 2 to do the same for her, \nalthough whatever was planned didn't work to control her. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Siyuf 2 going off the rails was another example of a demon imitating a \ngod and in some sense becoming that god. This was probably for the same \nreasons that General Mint says that if Spider has spies in her ranks, \nthey will still serve her by being forced to the best soldiers she has \nto protect their identity. Siyuf 2 has to act to some degree as Siyuf \nwould. That is what the Vironese did not plan for. There are other \nexamples in the novel as well. For example, Lemur's chem becomes Lemur. \nHorn becomes Silk. Quetzel dies protecting his flock. Incus becomes \nprolocutor by telling everyone \"he\" is and acting as if it is so \n(Quetzal conveniently dies, but then he was skipping town anyway).\n\nIn a subsequent novels...\nIn The Wizard Knight, Abel becomes a knight by acting as if he is one \nalready. He doesn't carry a sword because, in his mind, Disiri has \nalready given him one -- if he carried another, it would be \nacknowledging that she has not.\nIn The Sorcerer's House, Bax begins caring for the house has if it is \nhis own. This is his plan to live there as if it is his own. Of course, \nhe soon inherits it.\nIn the Book of the Short Sun, a Neighbor seeks to become Horn by \ndevoting himself to his mission. (I'm not looking for an argument. It's \njust that I'm quite sure this is the case.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC1606E.9080506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T18:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet = Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC1573F.30509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (14-11-2011 18:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 7:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aha! And then Violet could stay with Siyuf 2 to do the same for her,\nalthough whatever was planned didn't work to control her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Siyuf 2 going off the rails was another example of a demon imitating a god\nand in some sense becoming that god. This was probably for the same reasons\nthat General Mint says that if Spider has spies in her ranks, they will\nstill serve her by being forced to the best soldiers she has to protect\ntheir identity. Siyuf 2 has to act to some degree as Siyuf would. That is\nwhat the Vironese did not plan for. There are other examples in the novel as\nwell. For example, Lemur's chem becomes Lemur. Horn becomes Silk. Quetzel\ndies protecting his flock. Incus becomes prolocutor by telling everyone \"he\"\nis and acting as if it is so (Quetzal conveniently dies, but then he was\nskipping town anyway).\n\nIn a subsequent novels...\nIn The Wizard Knight, Abel becomes a knight by acting as if he is one\nalready. He doesn't carry a sword because, in his mind, Disiri has already\ngiven him one -- if he carried another, it would be acknowledging that she\nhas not.\nIn The Sorcerer's House, Bax begins caring for the house has if it is his\nown. This is his plan to live there as if it is his own. Of course, he soon\ninherits it.\nIn the Book of the Short Sun, a Neighbor seeks to become Horn by devoting\nhimself to his mission. (I'm not looking for an argument. It's just that I'm\nquite sure this is the case.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And if one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T18:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet=Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC1606E.9080506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: In The Wizard Knight, Abel becomes a knight by acting as if he is one \nalready...etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDoes Krait become Horn's son by acting like it? Purely a ruse? A little of both?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Book of the Short Sun, a Neighbor seeks to become Horn by \ndevoting himself to his mission. (I'm not looking for an argument. It's \njust that I'm quite sure this is the case.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who would waste their time arguing against such a reasonable guess? After all, Horn\nseems to facilitate dream travel and Neighbors are associated with dream travel. Is\nthere anything about either Horn or Silk which would bestow this ability? Is there \nanything in the text which shows there is not a Neighbor component to SilkHorn? \n(I use the word \"component\", though I think James would prefer another, for religious\nreasons)\n \nHeck, if you argue against that idea, you might as well go all the way and argue that\nthere is no component of Silk in Horn. That is actually stated in the text many times.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC165AC.5060201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:02:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet=Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nDoes Krait become Horn's son by acting like it? Purely a ruse? A little of both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "YES! Definitely. Of course, in a way, he already was his son for Krait's \nmother fed on Sinew as an infant. In the end, Resurrected Horn sees him \nas his son and in a sense he becomes more his son than is Sinew. Perhaps \npart of the reason Sinew eventually revolted was because he recognized \nthat Resurrected Horn was not his father. The same can be said of \nJahlee who poses as the Rajan's daughter/sister and Fava who poses as \nhis daughter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the Book of the Short Sun, a Neighbor seeks to become Horn by\ndevoting himself to his mission. (I'm not looking for an argument. It's\njust that I'm quite sure this is the case.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who would waste their time arguing against such a reasonable guess?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha ha ha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, if you argue against that idea, you might as well go all the way and argue that\nthere is no component of Silk in Horn. That is actually stated in the text many times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm.. do you mean \"Horn in Silk\"? Otherwise, can you elaborate?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC1680A.4030309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet=Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 12:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIs there\nanything in the text which shows there is not a Neighbor component to SilkHorn?\n(I use the word \"component\", though I think James would prefer another, for religious\nreasons)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, not MY religious reasons. To clarify what Lee is saying: Silk and \nthe Neighbor are all 100% there at once. And Horn is there to whatever \ndegree the Neighbor remembers him and all his memories and personality. \nAnd if Neighbors have perfect memory, then...\n\nFather, Son, Holy Spirt. Three-in-One. An example of the Trinity. As is \nRose-Marble-Molybdenum." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC169AF.6000205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:19:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC092DE.2070801@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2011 11:02 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/13/2011 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/13/2011 7:17 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't recall anywhere that the sun is associate with nooses, \nropes, or\nlariats. (Sun as cowboy?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHello? Sacred cattle of the sun?\nSundogs are among several luminous circular phenomena associated with\nthe sun, and could be seen as nooses by ancient peoples.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Very clever indeed! You, my friend, are on a roll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I live in a pretty rural area, so it's often handy to explain how my \nmore egg-headed interests aren't so far fetched after all. Just \nFriday, I was wowing 'em with how clowning is actually the oldest part \nof the rodeo going back to Minoan bull dancers 4500 years ago, while \nstirrups and the events that depend on them are only about 1700 years \nold...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most likely use of an actual noose in hunting is in trapping rabbit \n(hare) and other small game. I guess you could chase a hare if you want \nthe exercise.\n\nI don't see any particular implications, just that the classic chase \nwith hounds need not be part of the image. If anything, the Turret can \nbe seen as toyed with by a far greater power.\n\nI just checked Wiki and found that Orion has been depicted with Lepus, \nthe Hare, a constellation just below him, as well as with lion, bull, \ndogs, etc. So who knows. The noose tightens?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC16A63.3050006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:22:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet=Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC1680A.4030309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 2:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/14/2011 12:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there\nanything in the text which shows there is not a Neighbor component to \nSilkHorn?\n(I use the word \"component\", though I think James would prefer \nanother, for religious\nreasons)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, not MY religious reasons. To clarify what Lee is saying: Silk \nand the Neighbor are all 100% there at once. And Horn is there to \nwhatever degree the Neighbor remembers him and all his memories and \npersonality. And if Neighbors have perfect memory, then...\n\nFather, Son, Holy Spirt. Three-in-One. An example of the Trinity. As \nis Rose-Marble-Molybdenum." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't the Holy Spirt the White Fountain?\n\n:D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC16AC7.6080507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:23:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC169AF.6000205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I honestly can't hear another word on this particular poem. I've had more \nthan my share of fITZgERALD in its time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC16B4B.8060508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC16AC7.6080507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 2:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI honestly can't hear another word on this particular poem. I've had \nmore than my share of fITZgERALD in its time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Next up: Joyce Kilmer!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T19:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC16B4B.8060508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nNext up: Joyce Kilmer!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, maybe, Ogden Nash." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T21:09:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Violet=Plutonium?", "in_reply_to": "<4EC16A63.3050006@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I really think that many of the theories we discuss here are\nlike skyscrapers built on sand" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Well, not entirely. First, we are not building skyscrapers but \nrather imagining what they might look like and how they might be built. I don't \nthink Violet is a chem either, but if not, why not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs David demonstrates, he is not married to his theory to the point of blind rage\nif he is gainsaid. He tossed out an idea which eventually led to a point of \ninteresting discussion. I think your quotes combined with David's insight suggest\nthat the appellation \"Plutonium\" is meant as the equivalent to \"Sweetheart\" for a\nbeing powered by a nuclear reactor (especially considering a synonym for \"heart\"\nis \"core\"). Surely a connection is worth noting and identifying, yes?\n \nDo we really want to discourage such disucussion? How interesting would this board\nbe if all that was discussed was as certain and obvious as rock solid granite \nfoundation. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T21:14:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Next up: Joyce Kilmer!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh!\n \nI think that I shall never see\nA poem lovely as a tree.\n \nA tree covered in parasitic vines\nNeighbors and inhumi if you read the signs \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC18C22.8020609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T21:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/14/2011 4:14 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Next up: Joyce Kilmer!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh!\n\nI think that I shall never see\nA poem lovely as a tree.\n\nA tree covered in parasitic vines\nNeighbors and inhumi if you read the signs \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The tree will soon become his prey\nSix-armed Gods, to fade away." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-14T22:00:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC18C22.8020609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I'm going to have to do some Nashian verse, aren't I?\n\nThis is a poem to celebrate Gene,\nwho writes books that are difficult and modern but rarely obscene.\nSome people dislike books Lupine,\nbut I think they're divine\neven if I sometimes can't figure out what they mean.\nBut that problem is for me, not Gene.\n\nHe wrote about a torturer named Severian,\nwho had a memory that reminds me of a planarian,\nbecause a planarian who eats another planarian that planarian's memory gains,\nand so does Severian when he eats someone's brains.\nThis doesn't mean that Severian is a zombie or otherwise undead;\nhe just lives with a community inside his own head.\n\nAside from Severian there is also Able,\nwho is like a knight of the Round Table,\nexcept that his table isn't round, and his king is Arnthor, not Arthur,\nand Arthur's knights searched the whole world but Able went even farthur.\nHe declared himself a knight and went out to have adventures\nthough it turned out that he was in some sort of indentures.\n\nThen there is Number Five\nwho somehow manages to survive\na long time in a prison or penitentiary.\nHis tale is pretty scary.\nHe thought he was living his life on his own,\nbut he was really just another clone.\n\nSilk is the Patera of a poor manteion\nthat the rich of Viron wouldn't even bother to peion.\nOf all Gene's main characters Silk is the nicest,\nand the best place to startest if you takest my advicest;\nHe leads his people from a hopeless present to a hopeful futurity\nbut he himself turns into an obscurity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:46 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/14/2011 4:14 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: Next up: Joyce Kilmer!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh!\n\nI think that I shall never see\nA poem lovely as a tree.\n\nA tree covered in parasitic vines\nNeighbors and inhumi if you read the signs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The tree will soon become his prey\nSix-armed Gods, to fade away.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC19083.6030301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-14T22:04:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 5:00 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nNow I'm going to have to do some Nashian verse, aren't I?\n\nThis is a poem to celebrate Gene,\nwho writes books that are difficult and modern but rarely obscene.\nSome people dislike books Lupine,\nbut I think they're divine\neven if I sometimes can't figure out what they mean.\nBut that problem is for me, not Gene.\n\nHe wrote about a torturer named Severian,\nwho had a memory that reminds me of a planarian,\nbecause a planarian who eats another planarian that planarian's memory gains,\nand so does Severian when he eats someone's brains.\nThis doesn't mean that Severian is a zombie or otherwise undead;\nhe just lives with a community inside his own head.\n\nAside from Severian there is also Able,\nwho is like a knight of the Round Table,\nexcept that his table isn't round, and his king is Arnthor, not Arthur,\nand Arthur's knights searched the whole world but Able went even farthur.\nHe declared himself a knight and went out to have adventures\nthough it turned out that he was in some sort of indentures.\n\nThen there is Number Five\nwho somehow manages to survive\na long time in a prison or penitentiary.\nHis tale is pretty scary.\nHe thought he was living his life on his own,\nbut he was really just another clone.\n\nSilk is the Patera of a poor manteion\nthat the rich of Viron wouldn't even bother to peion.\nOf all Gene's main characters Silk is the nicest,\nand the best place to startest if you takest my advicest;\nHe leads his people from a hopeless present to a hopeful futurity\nbut he himself turns into an obscurity.\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:46 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/14/2011 4:14 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff: Next up: Joyce Kilmer!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Heh!\n\nI think that I shall never see\nA poem lovely as a tree.\n\nA tree covered in parasitic vines\nNeighbors and inhumi if you read the signs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The tree will soon become his prey\nSix-armed Gods, to fade away.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC29A3C.60506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-15T16:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hunter of the East", "in_reply_to": "<4EC169AF.6000205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2011 2:19 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe most likely use of an actual noose in hunting is in trapping \nrabbit (hare) and other small game. I guess you could chase a hare if \nyou want the exercise.\n\nI don't see any particular implications, just that the classic chase \nwith hounds need not be part of the image. If anything, the Turret can \nbe seen as toyed with by a far greater power.\n\nI just checked Wiki and found that Orion has been depicted with Lepus, \nthe Hare, a constellation just below him, as well as with lion, bull, \ndogs, etc. So who knows. The noose tightens?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My last post on this topic. I can't believe how slow my brain is....\n\nBut it seems obvious to me now that if the hunter has laid a snare, he \nneed not be present when he catches his game. He may be long gone by the \ntime the hare is caught. Which, for me, fits very well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-12-05T23:02:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe vindicated!", "in_reply_to": "<81102A3297754C758B32676A61DCCCE7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought the Autarch's explanation of how flyers work an in-joke \nby Wolfe, but saw a link today to:\n\nhttp://www.springerlink.com/content/f723g0856r4412w3/fulltext.pdf\n\n(from http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-quantum-vacuum-dark.html)\n\nHajdukovic concludes:\n\nthe gravitational properties of antimatter [will] be tested in CERN before \nthe end of the current decade (Kellerbauer et al. 2008) and that the \nrecent theoretical considerations give some support to the gravitational \nrepulsion between matter and antimatter (Villata 2011).\n\nVillata, M.: CPT symmetry and antimatter gravity in general relativity.\nEurophys. Lett. 94, 20001 (2011)\n\nSo, was this idea already floating around in the 60-70's?\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-06T13:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe vindicated!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy: I always thought the Autarch's explanation of how flyers work an in-joke \nby Wolfe, Hajdukovic concludes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the gravitational properties of antimatter [will] be tested in CERN before \nthe end of the current decade (Kellerbauer et al. 2008) and that the \nrecent theoretical considerations give some support to the gravitational \nrepulsion between matter and antimatter " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, was this idea already floating around in the 60-70's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think so. I guess the idea was that if particle polarity is reversed (antimatter \nelectrons are positively charged) then all physical properties might be. There\nis probably some mathematical basis for predicting it also. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDE1F7E.6000505@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-06T13:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe vindicated!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2011 5:02 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nI always thought the Autarch's explanation of how flyers work an in-joke\nby Wolfe, but saw a link today to:\n\nhttp://www.springerlink.com/content/f723g0856r4412w3/fulltext.pdf\n\n(from http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-quantum-vacuum-dark.html)\n\nHajdukovic concludes:\n\nthe gravitational properties of antimatter [will] be tested in CERN\nbefore the end of the current decade (Kellerbauer et al. 2008) and that\nthe recent theoretical considerations give some support to the\ngravitational repulsion between matter and antimatter (Villata 2011).\n\nVillata, M.: CPT symmetry and antimatter gravity in general relativity.\nEurophys. Lett. 94, 20001 (2011)\n\nSo, was this idea already floating around in the 60-70's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Totally, Lem uses it in THE CYBERIAD. in the 1990's, Forward's \nTIMEMASTER showed how negative mass has all kinds implications besides \njust floating ships (time travel, stargates, infinite acceleration, \nparadox-guided missiles) though." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<851C6CEEAAF149CF974D9E171841FFFE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-06T14:19:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe vindicated!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Duffy " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hajdukovic concludes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the gravitational properties of antimatter [will] be tested in CERN before \nthe end of the current decade (Kellerbauer et al. 2008) and that the \nrecent theoretical considerations give some support to the gravitational \nrepulsion between matter and antimatter (Villata 2011)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, was this idea already floating around in the 60-70's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s been floating around since antimatter was theorised / discovered. It’s very difficult to test because you really want a heavy antimatter particle with no electric charge, i.e. a cold antimatter atom. AFAIK they are working on making them. \nIt basically kills general relativity if it’s correct (and not before time IMO). The interesting thing as I see it is that we know energy (e.g. light) is definitely attracted / bent towards the gravitational field of matter. If the opposite applies to antimatter, this is a huge asymmetry, as there is no anti-light. If it bends towards both, that’s... puzzling. \nOne example of a problem: if antimatter repels matter and you could switch at will between a mix of matter and antimatter and a box of photons, you could switch gravity on and off, because a box of light is definitely attracted to matter. That seems hard to mesh with the concept of gravity as a long range field. Though maybe I just discovered how flyers work ;-)\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] } ] }