{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6106", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6106, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2011-11-09T20:32:27+00:00", "last": "2011-11-10T02:48:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T20:32:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Sometimes when Roy posts I feel like Michael Douglas in \"Falling Down\".\n\"When did I become the bad guy?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Good movie! I don't see this in terms of good and evil, though. More like a\npredator-prey relationship. Those with an abundance of self-confidence will prey\non those who are more lacking in it. Has been that way since the early days of this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I think Jeff spelled out one possible explanation, which is that Green\nis to Urth as Urth is to us. That is, back a cycle or two, Urth is our future---one\npossible future that we will probably not see---and back a cycle or two before that,\nLong/Short Sun is Urth's future---again, one possible future that Ushas may not see..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It boggles my mind that anyone would want to tell a story this way, but Jeff's point is\naccurate---it excuses the disjointedness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I appreciate Jeff's suggestion too though it also boggles my mind to comprehend what it\ngoing on there, not to mention what point Wolfe might have been trying to make with that.\n\nMy alternate (to Marc's straight identity idea) explanation for \"Green is Urth!\" and the\nresonance of Green structures to Urth structures has to do with spiritual progression.\n\nUshas is a spiritually advanced progression from Urth. Blue is a more spiritually advanced\nthan Green. Antediluvian Earth is more spirtually advanced than pre-diluvian Earth which\nwas roamed by nephilim and demons and whatever other Biblical horrors Noah's Flood washed away.\n\nThus \"GREEN is Urth!\" (I think that is the most accurate representation of the quote).\n\nGreen not Blue. Blue is more like Ushas. So much focus is on the similar structures found on\nGreen and Urth in this discussion. Ignored are the similarity of ruins found under the waters of\nboth Blue and Ushas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320878720.86239.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T22:45:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My problem with all this is that Blue is colder than Urth is colder than Green - that city under the water is a MacGuffin, we are meant to look at it and try to find a way to map Urth onto it but there is just no way to do it and the mechanism is just not there to explain how they accidentally wind up on Urth when they mean to go to Green. I firmly believed blue was Urth/Ushas until Gene corrected me. I don't see Blue as Ushas. It's the coldest of the three (two) worlds. It's something else.\n\nAnd I like literal truths to explain things in Wolfe; I feel that is how he utilizes symbols. Thus my opinion Latro really IS Pleistorus, Weer really IS dead, Green really IS Urth, Silk really IS Typhon's son, Kypris really IS Mamelta, the rajan really IS Silk after OBW, etc etc etc. I think that's how Wolfe operates when he creates his identity mysteries: that there is a real tacit solid non-symbolic solution that explains the metonymic resonances that permeate the text (bunch of tales about dead people and sneaky murderers set up in parallel? narrator is really dead and killed at least one person!)\n\nWe don't all have to agree though and I really do understand why some don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) (no subject)\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 12:32 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: Sometimes when Roy posts I feel like\nMichael Douglas in \"Falling Down\".\n\"When did I become the bad guy?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Good movie! I don't see this in terms of good and\nevil, though. More like a\npredator-prey relationship. Those with an abundance of\nself-confidence will prey\non those who are more lacking in it. Has been that way\nsince the early days of this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I think Jeff spelled out one possible\nexplanation, which is that Green\nis to Urth as Urth is to us. That is, back a cycle or\ntwo, Urth is our future---one\npossible future that we will probably not see---and\nback a cycle or two before that,\nLong/Short Sun is Urth's future---again, one possible\nfuture that Ushas may not see..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It boggles my mind that anyone would want to tell a\nstory this way, but Jeff's point is\naccurate---it excuses the disjointedness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I appreciate Jeff's suggestion too though it also boggles\nmy mind to comprehend what it\ngoing on there, not to mention what point Wolfe might have\nbeen trying to make with that.\n\nMy alternate (to Marc's straight identity idea) explanation\nfor \"Green is Urth!\" and the\nresonance of Green structures to Urth structures has to do\nwith spiritual progression.\n\nUshas is a spiritually advanced progression from Urth. Blue\nis a more spiritually advanced\nthan Green. Antediluvian Earth is more spirtually advanced\nthan pre-diluvian Earth which\nwas roamed by nephilim and demons and whatever other\nBiblical horrors Noah's Flood washed away.\n\nThus \"GREEN is Urth!\" (I think that is the most accurate\nrepresentation of the quote).\n\nGreen not Blue. Blue is more like Ushas. So much focus is\non the similar structures found on\nGreen and Urth in this discussion. Ignored are the\nsimilarity of ruins found under the waters of\nboth Blue and Ushas. ???\n????????\n????" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-09T23:38:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<1320878720.86239.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 09/11/2011, ?s 22:45, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's how Wolfe operates when he creates his identity mysteries: that there is a real tacit solid non-symbolic solution that explains the metonymic resonances that permeate the text (bunch of tales about dead people and sneaky murderers set up in parallel? narrator is really dead and killed at least one person!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is an important point. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20111109234910.TDMU3804.eastrmfepo103.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2011-11-09T23:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<1320878720.86239.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:45 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:\nGreen really IS Urth," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Gene DID deny this. I think we have to let the author have his say.\n\nJBJordan (formerly Nutria)\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T00:55:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<20111109234910.TDMU3804.eastrmfepo103.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James B. Jordan wrote:\nGreen really IS Urth," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Gene DID deny this. I think we have to let the author have his say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did he say this? In the one interview I recall, where he said\nanything about it at all, he denied that _the pair_ Green and Blue\nmapped to any of a number of planet pairs. But he did not deny that\nthe one planet, Green, was Urth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320893282.26915.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-10T02:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<20111109234910.TDMU3804.eastrmfepo103.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He denied Green/Blue was Urth/Lune. He never ever denied to me what he wrote to me; just asked me not to share it after the fact.\n\nWhat is the author's say?\n\n--- On Wed, 11/9/11, James B. Jordan wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James B. Jordan \nSubject: Re: (urth) (no subject)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 3:49 PM\n\n\n\nAt 04:45 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:\n\n\nGreen really IS Urth, \nBut Gene DID deny this. I think we have to let the author have his say. \n\nJBJordan (formerly Nutria)\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] } ] }