Subject: (urth) Violet = Plutonium

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:23:55 +0000

David Stockhoff wrote:

>
> It's one thing if Orchid hired a chem to pleasure chem guests the way a
> brothel might hire boys and girls for different tastes (although
> apparently she did not hire boys).

I don't think chems have anything like what we would call sex. The
only thing that disqualifies a chem from seeing the gods is actually
making a child, which takes a year.

> The councillors were never very convincing as humans---Patera Quetzal
> kept his secret longer. Lemur reveals his status almost as soon as we
> meet him. None of the Ayuntamiento ever went out in public anyway, so
> they had little need to work at fooling anyone and if they did it it's
> not shown.

Lemur has served under two Caldes. That surely puts his rise to power
earlier than that of Quetzal. And I take it he deceived them, and the
various commissioners through who he governed.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:49:48 +0000

>James Wynn: The tricky part for the councilors was connecting the chems 
>consciousness to the the living councilors. This is easier to do than it 
>might appear because (I propose) chems were made to receive the scanned, 
>memory wiped souls of bios just as the Mainframe is received the scanned 
>souls of Typhon's family and inner court.
 
I think this is a reasonable supposition. Chems have such individualized
personalities. It doesn't seem like an efficient way to make a tool in
this manner.
 
I wonder if this might apply to BotNS. Why would the factory want to program Jonas
to read fiction during his off hours? This is in contrast to Sidero who is more
clearly a tool. While he has emotions, I can't imagine him reading Greek mythology
or Lewis Carroll.
 
Has there been any mention of the word choice for the nickname Plutonium? Of all
the mineral names which might be chosen that is surely one with significance. Did
the talus run on fossil or organic fuel? I forget, but surely Chems don't.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:12:48 +0000

From: Lee Berman 

> the talus run on fossil or organic fuel? I forget, but surely Chems don't.      
Soldiers, at least, are said to have a nuclear fusion power source.
And Crane says that isotopes are released when a chem blows, not specifying the type of chem, indicating some kind of nuclear power at least.
- Gerry Quinn
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:20:07 +0000

> Lee Berman wrote:
> [...] I wonder if this might apply to BotNS. Why would the factory want to program Jonas
> to read fiction during his off hours?

The chems also wear perfume and the original chem owner of Rose's hand 
used to "practice her hand". There is a practical reason for them to 
smell and judge good smells (the females anyway), because they have to 
cook. But this is a convenient way to accomplish the judging part.

Until now, I did not apply this to Jonas. It seemed unlikely that Wolfe 
would have thought of this method and done so little with it until the 
mid 90s. Now I'm not so sure. This might explain how Jonas "becomes" 
Miles. In truth (according to this theory), Miles *will* become Jonas. 
Severian's speech to Jonas will be in Jonas's subconscious and sometime 
after he leaves Sev, he remembers it and does not return. On the other 
hand, it might be simpler to propose that Jonas is made from what is 
left of Miles's biological parts, and as with Chelle's new arm in "Home 
Fires" those parts remember.

J.

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:17:02 +0000

>David Stockhoff: Lee's comment suggests to me that, since plutonium is 
>never otherwise mentioned but may well be the source of chem energy (i.e., 
>they have nuclear powerplants in the mode of Iron Man's suit), that Sand may be 
>calling Violet something like "my heart." Whether that is flirty or an 
>expression of true love I don't know.

Yes, that's good! Just the track I was onto. I was stuck on plutonium as 
radioactive fuel, so all I could think of by way of analogy was, "my little chili 
pepper" or something like that. Plutonium as "my heart" works quite nicely for
an atomic powered being.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:21:44 +0000

> pepper" or something like that. Plutonium as "my heart" works quite nicely for

And it underscores chems as "people," always a concern of Wolfe's.

---

From: Sergei SOLOVIEV <soloviev at irit.fr>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:26:33 +0000

Sergei Soloviev:

The discussion about "Violet = Plutonium" went quite far, but I think
again this guess (that she is a chem) is hardly supported by the text.
The idea that she is an agent of Trivigauntis is not supported either.

"EftLS" ("Lovers"). Chenille calls Orchid via monitor:
"... I need a favor, only there'll be something for you. Maybe a card. 
Maybe more."
"... you see the mort in doss in the next room? She's the Trivigaunti's 
generalissiomo.
Her name is Siyuf."
"... I got to bet the hoof. Is Violet riding pretty light?"
"... Siyuf likes tall dells, she would've given me five easy.... Violet 
ought to get more
if she soaps her. Tell her to come uphill and play spoons, tell Siyuf 
she's my pal ..."
" Only I get half."

"EftLS" (I'm Auk")
Chenille calls Silk to the "Ermine's".
(Violet told her where Silk and Hyacinth are.)
"... so I talked to Violet some myself (after she was with Siyuf)."
"So it pops out that Trivigauntis caught a flier..."
"Only you didn't know they killed three, did you? Three fliers. That's 
what Siyuf
said, Violet says."
"... Violet figured it might be good to know where this flier was. You know,
something somebody might pay to know."
"... And Violet spilled something about me and Auk, Patera, just making 
conversation,
she says, with Siyuf. She says as soon as she said Auk's name Siyuf 
wanted to know all
about him. ... Violet think Auk's mixed with this flier somehow, and now 
the Trvigauntis
are looking for him..."

Does it look as if she is an agent of Trivigauntis?  It is just "call 
girl" who
does her work and wants her piece of cake.

Does it look as if she is a chem? To deceive Chenille, Orchid, other girls?
No chems visiting Orchid!

We have again a hotly discussed theory based
on scant evidence. : (

If we look at the Sand's visit to Siyuf:

"a tall and strikingly handsome brunette in a diaphanous gown peered 
out.  (It is Violet.)
'Hi. You want to see Generalissimo Siyuf?'"
"You got it, Plutonium"
...
"The handsome young woman nodded. 'Close enough, Soldier. I'm Violet."
"Sergeant Sand, pleased."
...
"Leaning over Violet's shoulder, Hammerstone ponted with a finger thrice 
the size
of hers.
'I don't really read so good', she whispered. 'What's that second word? 
It can't - Sweetheart,
there's a Chenille in here. Is that the Chen we know?"

I would think the chems are not illiterate. Violet calls Hammerstone 
sweetheart -
but it doesn't mean he is a Bio. I think Wolfe merely renders the style of
chat - both of Violet and soldiers.

Later Sand says (about Bison and Mint) : "Colonel Bison's General Mint's 
man. If she
says spit oil, he says how far?" Does it mean that Bison is a chem? 
Again just
argot (soldiers style).

"As Abanja face faded to gray, Violet murmured, 'I'd help if I could, 
only -'
'Sure, Plutonium.' Slinging his slug gun, Sand stooped, grasped an 
astonished Siyuf about
the waist..."

Sand is able to be sarcastic, ne c'est pas?

I really think that many of the theories we discuss here are
like skyscrapers built on sand

All the best

Sergei Soloviev

Lee Berman wrote:
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---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:52:46 +0000

On 11/14/2011 3:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:
> "... you see the mort in doss in the next room? She's the 
> Trivigaunti's generalissiomo.
> Her name is Siyuf."
> "... Siyuf likes tall dells, she would've given me five easy.... 
> Violet ought to get more
> "... And Violet spilled something about me and Auk, Patera, just 
> making conversation,
> about him. ... Violet think Auk's mixed with this flier somehow, and 
> now the Trvigauntis
> are looking for him..."
>
> "Leaning over Violet's shoulder, Hammerstone ponted with a finger 
> thrice the size
> of hers.
> 'I don't really read so good', she whispered. 'What's that second 
> word? It can't - Sweetheart,
> Later Sand says (about Bison and Mint) : "Colonel Bison's General 
> Mint's man. If she

Well, not entirely. First, we are not building skyscrapers but rather 
imagining what they might look like and how they might be built. I don't 
think Violet is a chem either, but if not, why not?

Second, as an employee of Orchid's---and a big girl to boot, "second 
tallest" in fact---Violet is already a spy suspect before she happily 
gets into bed with Siyuf. Having her be a chem too probably complicates 
the situation too much.

Violet calling Hammerstone "sweetheart" means little in a prostitute. 
Calling someone you know by a completely different name---one that 
violates the known naming conventions, as "Plutonium" does---is a little 
different.

Good point about Violet being illiterate though---if she's not faking it.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:07:45 +0000

> Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:

Sand? What the...!!

Seriously, though, this is more like a kwansit hut built on sand. But 
many assertions that There's Nothing To See Here are also not founded in 
granite.

The question of whether Violet is a chem was worth knocking around for 
these reasons:
Only Sand uses this supposed "term of endearment". He never employs it 
toward anyone but Violet; neither bio or chem.
We'd be morons not to knock around the idea that she is a chem, just to 
dispense with it. I'm not inclined to believe that she is, but I *do* 
believe more is going on. I always have.

I want to distinguish things we definitely know and what is not 
confirmation of anything (I don't do this to *prove* that Violet is a chem):

Violet works at Orchids. Violet makes extra money as a spy. Hyacinth was 
a spy for the Trivigaunte and has also worked at Orchids. If Violet is a 
chem, the people she works for know it, but this is only necessarily 
true if she is a chem. Her claim not to be able to read undermines this 
suspicion, but she could be lying. A desire for money is not evidence 
that she is a chem. One of the black mechanics has altered his chem so 
that he works for no money. There is a chem, Sard, who runs a shop. 
Chems want things money can buy. Since they want replacement parts, 
their desire is possibly greater.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:39:06 +0000

Admittedly I havent closely followed this thread, but it strikes me that a
tough talking chem like sand would certainly say "hello, plutonium" when he
saw a beautiful woman instead of "hello, hot stuff".  Too simple?

On Nov 14, 2011 1:40 PM, "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> I really think that ma...
Sand? What the...!!

Seriously, though, this is more like a kwansit hut built on sand. But many
assertions that There's Nothing To See Here are also not founded in granite.

Violet works at Orchids. Violet makes extra money as a spy. Hyacinth was a
spy for the Trivigaunte and has also worked at Orchids. If Violet is a
chem, the people she works for know it, but this is only necessarily true
if she is a chem. Her claim not to be able to read undermines this
suspicion, but she could be lying. A desire for money is not evidence that
she is a chem. One of the black mechanics has altered his chem so that he
works for no money. There is a chem, Sard, who runs a shop. Chems want
things money can buy. Since they want replacement parts, their desire is
possibly greater.

Sub...
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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:43:28 +0000

By which I'm implying that plutonium is a substitute for hot stuff, not
sweetheart, since that seems like a more direct bio/chem slang replacement

>
> Sand? What the...!!
>
> Seriously, though, this is more like a kwansit hut built on sand. But m...

> To post, write urth at u...
Sub...
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:18:40 +0000

Possible. But (1) it's capitalized and (2) plutonium fluoride, the form 
it's usually stored in, is violet. So it's specific to Violet.

On 11/14/2011 8:43 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:
>
> By which I'm implying that plutonium is a substitute for hot stuff, 
> not sweetheart, since that seems like a more direct bio/chem slang 
> replacement
>
>>
>> >
>> > On Nov 14, 2011 1:40 PM, "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:
>> > >

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:43:50 +0000

On 11/14/2011 8:18 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
> Possible. But (1) it's capitalized and (2) plutonium fluoride, the 
> form it's usually stored in, is violet. So it's specific to Violet. 

And only Sand says it. And he literally *never* calls Violet by her 
name, or anything else.