{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6118", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6118, "subject": "Like a good Neighbor", "messages": 407, "voices": 15, "first": "2011-11-19T23:42:19+00:00", "last": "2011-11-28T17:32:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002001cca714$e3ec4b00$abcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-19T23:42:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both Marc and James hold that Horn died in the pit. Marc says that Horn was\nsomehow eaten by a tree that left behind a body that looked just like the\nHorn who fell into the pit, with the spirit of Horn intact. James has it\nthat Horn's spirit died in the pit, along with the body, but the body was\nrepaired and a Neighbor's spirit replaced Horn's. In the latter case, who\nbrutally raped Seawrack, soon after getting out of the pit? A good Neighbor?\n\nWhile staying at Inclito's house, Silkhorn was yet again contacted by Mucor,\nsans body, to tell him that Babbie had come back to her and Marble. She\ngreeted Silkhorn with, \"There you are, Silk. There you are, Horn. I've been\nlooking everywhere for you.\" (IGJ, 146-47) Did she not know who she was\ntalking to, close to two years after sending her spirit to the Long Sun\nWhorl to search for Silk at Horn's behest?\n\nAt the end of IGJ, Silkhorn was visited by two Neighbors. He asked them,\n\"Will the inhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" He was answered\nwith, \"You cannot go where we are.\" (381) At this point, Silkhorn had made\nastral trips to both Green and Urth. If Silkhorn was being animated by a\nNeighbor at that time, one implication is that the Neighbors had not gone\naway to either Green or Urth when they left the Blue-Green solar system,\nregardless of whether or not Silkhorn possessed an innate Neighbor's assumed\nability to travel astrally and/or in time.\n\nAnother implication is that those two Neighbors didn't know that they were\ntalking to a fellow Neighbor, which strikes me as strange since Neighbors\nknew where to find Horn in the pit, on Green and, apparently, Silk on the\nLSW, and Silkhorn there in Blanko territory and still later in Dorp. I\nsuppose they could have been lying or just bad guys, but Oreb, generally\ntaken to be a good judge of character, greeted those two Neighbors with,\n\"Good things. Things come.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC850DF.2040609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T00:59:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<002001cca714$e3ec4b00$abcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "my 2 cents ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 6:42 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBoth Marc and James hold that Horn died in the pit. Marc says that Horn was\nsomehow eaten by a tree that left behind a body that looked just like the\nHorn who fell into the pit, with the spirit of Horn intact. James has it\nthat Horn's spirit died in the pit, along with the body, but the body was\nrepaired and a Neighbor's spirit replaced Horn's. In the latter case, who\nbrutally raped Seawrack, soon after getting out of the pit? A good Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any male human body would respond to Seawrack's singing with rape. \nThat's what it does to the male of the species. So it matters less what \nis actually animating that body. Maybe Silk would have found a way to \navoid it (Ulysses did) but if he didn't he would have killed himself \nafterward out of guilt. Lucky he wasn't there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While staying at Inclito's house, Silkhorn was yet again contacted by Mucor,\nsans body, to tell him that Babbie had come back to her and Marble. She\ngreeted Silkhorn with, \"There you are, Silk. There you are, Horn. I've been\nlooking everywhere for you.\" (IGJ, 146-47) Did she not know who she was\ntalking to, close to two years after sending her spirit to the Long Sun\nWhorl to search for Silk at Horn's behest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems to rule out her being involved in transferring Horn to Babbie. But \neven if that happened, there must be enough Horn in Incanto to be \nvisible to her extrasensory perceptions. It suggests that she doesn't \nsee the face at all, but rather the alpha persona followed by the beta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of IGJ, Silkhorn was visited by two Neighbors. He asked them,\n\"Will the inhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" He was answered\nwith, \"You cannot go where we are.\" (381) At this point, Silkhorn had made\nastral trips to both Green and Urth. If Silkhorn was being animated by a\nNeighbor at that time, one implication is that the Neighbors had not gone\naway to either Green or Urth when they left the Blue-Green solar system,\nregardless of whether or not Silkhorn possessed an innate Neighbor's assumed\nability to travel astrally and/or in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they went either sideways or up, whatever that means. One way to \nleave the system physically is via the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another implication is that those two Neighbors didn't know that they were\ntalking to a fellow Neighbor, which strikes me as strange since Neighbors\nknew where to find Horn in the pit, on Green and, apparently, Silk on the\nLSW, and Silkhorn there in Blanko territory and still later in Dorp. I\nsuppose they could have been lying or just bad guys, but Oreb, generally\ntaken to be a good judge of character, greeted those two Neighbors with,\n\"Good things. Things come.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think they were talking to a fellow Neighbor any more than Silk \nwas the ruler of Urth. I think the Neighbor who resurrected Horn gave of \nhimself but not all of himself; that the Horn that went back to his boat \nwas Neighbor but not 100% Neighbor (difficult to parse the practical \ndistinction between 100% Neighbor/100% Man and 50% of each), and that \nthe Neighbor who later said \"I am Horn\" was the same Neighbor, meaning \nonly \"I created the (then-?)living Horn out of myself.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC862F3.8090209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T02:16:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<002001cca714$e3ec4b00$abcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 5:42 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames has it\nthat Horn's spirit died in the pit, along with the body, but the body was\nrepaired and a Neighbor's spirit replaced Horn's. In the latter case, who\nbrutally raped Seawrack, soon after getting out of the pit? A good Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Seawrack was designed to be irresistible.\n2) Why do you find it impossible that Neighbors would be fallible?\n\nYou don't need me to point these things out. Why be provocative?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While staying at Inclito's house, Silkhorn was yet again contacted by Mucor,\nsans body, to tell him that Babbie had come back to her and Marble. She\ngreeted Silkhorn with, \"There you are, Silk. There you are, Horn. I've been\nlooking everywhere for you.\" (IGJ, 146-47) Did she not know who she was\ntalking to, close to two years after sending her spirit to the Long Sun\nWhorl to search for Silk at Horn's behest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If she did, she apparently didn't feel the need to greet him, because \nthey weren't friends. Maybe she didn't know his name. Maybe she doesn't \nknow all there is to know about Neighbors. Maybe the only reason she \nknows that Horn is there is because she has already met the Rajan during \nher mission to the Whorl. So she has some background information." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of IGJ, Silkhorn was visited by two Neighbors. He asked them,\n\"Will the inhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" He was answered\nwith, \"You cannot go where we are.\" (381) At this point, Silkhorn had made\nastral trips to both Green and Urth. If Silkhorn was being animated by a\nNeighbor at that time, one implication is that the Neighbors had not gone\naway to either Green or Urth when they left the Blue-Green solar system,\nregardless of whether or not Silkhorn possessed an innate Neighbor's assumed\nability to travel astrally and/or in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll buy that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another implication is that those two Neighbors didn't know that they were\ntalking to a fellow Neighbor, which strikes me as strange since Neighbors\nknew where to find Horn in the pit, on Green and, apparently, Silk on the\nLSW, and Silkhorn there in Blanko territory and still later in Dorp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I hardly think those are the only two implications.\nAt least one other is that they know they are not talking to a Neighbor \nnor a human but something utterly unique: a merging of the two. So they \nwere speaking about limitations reflected in his humanity.\n\nEven if they didn't know they were talking to Neighborish entity (which \nI doubt) and others did, what of it? Who says the Neighbors know \neverything about each other's business? This is similar to Gerry's \nrefutation about the fact that the Rajan claimed to know something about \nthe Mother's worshippers but not /everything/. You're human, Roy. So \nobviously you know everything about the church services of Primitive \nBaptists or the Bahai.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5424B232-9800-407D-8ED3-02B9B7ED6861@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T03:18:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC862F3.8090209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 20/11/2011, ?s 02:16, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 5:42 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James has it\nthat Horn's spirit died in the pit, along with the body, but the body was\nrepaired and a Neighbor's spirit replaced Horn's. In the latter case, who\nbrutally raped Seawrack, soon after getting out of the pit? A good Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Seawrack was designed to be irresistible.\n2) Why do you find it impossible that Neighbors would be fallible?\n\nYou don't need me to point these things out. Why be provocative?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While staying at Inclito's house, Silkhorn was yet again contacted by Mucor,\nsans body, to tell him that Babbie had come back to her and Marble. She\ngreeted Silkhorn with, \"There you are, Silk. There you are, Horn. I've been\nlooking everywhere for you.\" (IGJ, 146-47) Did she not know who she was\ntalking to, close to two years after sending her spirit to the Long Sun\nWhorl to search for Silk at Horn's behest?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If she did, she apparently didn't feel the need to greet him, because they weren't friends. Maybe she didn't know his name. Maybe she doesn't know all there is to know about Neighbors. Maybe the only reason she knows that Horn is there is because she has already met the Rajan during her mission to the Whorl. So she has some background information." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If her astral powers are at all to make any sense, what she is able to locate are spirits. If the spirits of Horn and Silk weren't there, she wouldn't find them. And meeting the Rajan in the Whorl raises the exact same question. \n\nThis can be explained away. Just not convincingly, so far. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the end of IGJ, Silkhorn was visited by two Neighbors. He asked them,\n\"Will the inhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" He was answered\nwith, \"You cannot go where we are.\" (381) At this point, Silkhorn had made\nastral trips to both Green and Urth. If Silkhorn was being animated by a\nNeighbor at that time, one implication is that the Neighbors had not gone\naway to either Green or Urth when they left the Blue-Green solar system,\nregardless of whether or not Silkhorn possessed an innate Neighbor's assumed\nability to travel astrally and/or in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll buy that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another implication is that those two Neighbors didn't know that they were\ntalking to a fellow Neighbor, which strikes me as strange since Neighbors\nknew where to find Horn in the pit, on Green and, apparently, Silk on the\nLSW, and Silkhorn there in Blanko territory and still later in Dorp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I hardly think those are the only two implications.\nAt least one other is that they know they are not talking to a Neighbor nor a human but something utterly unique: a merging of the two. So they were speaking about limitations reflected in his humanity.\n\nEven if they didn't know they were talking to Neighborish entity (which I doubt) and others did, what of it? Who says the Neighbors know everything about each other's business? This is similar to Gerry's refutation about the fact that the Rajan claimed to know something about the Mother's worshippers but not /everything/. You're human, Roy. So obviously you know everything about the church services of Primitive Baptists or the Bahai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's the little bit that we're not 'psychic' as they supposedly are, which renders any comparison with us pointless. Again, that can be explained away, only not so far convincingly. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC87511.2080903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T03:33:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<5424B232-9800-407D-8ED3-02B9B7ED6861@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 10:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf her astral powers are at all to make any sense, what she is able to locate are spirits. If the spirits of Horn and Silk weren't there, she wouldn't find them. And meeting the Rajan in the Whorl raises the exact same question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thought exactly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC875E4.2060701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T03:37:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<5424B232-9800-407D-8ED3-02B9B7ED6861@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 9:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf [Mucor's] astral powers are at all to make any sense, what she is able to locate are spirits. If the spirits of Horn and Silk weren't there, she wouldn't find them. And meeting the Rajan in the Whorl raises the exact same question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the prerequisite declared in the first clause of the first \nsentence of the above to be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I hardly think those are the only two implications.\nAt least one other is that they know they are not talking to a Neighbor nor a human but something utterly unique: a merging of the two. So they were speaking about limitations reflected in his humanity.\n\nEven if they didn't know they were talking to Neighborish entity (which I doubt) and others did, what of it? Who says the Neighbors know everything about each other's business? This is similar to Gerry's refutation about the fact that the Rajan claimed to know something about the Mother's worshippers but not /everything/. You're human, Roy. So obviously you know everything about the church services of Primitive Baptists or the Bahai." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's the little bit that we're not 'psychic' as they supposedly are, which renders any comparison with us pointless. Again, that can be explained away, only not so far convincingly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, there's no reason to suppose being a Neighbor makes one \nomniscient. One is free to make the objection. But all it warrants from \nme is a shrug. I simply don't find Roy's competing theory (implied by \nthe sum of his objections) at all acceptable: That Horn didn't die in \nthe pit. If a fellow can't catch this hint from Wolfe, I probably won't \nbe able to convince him of the rest of it anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC879CA.5090205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T03:53:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC87511.2080903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 9:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/19/2011 10:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If her astral powers are at all to make any sense, what she is able \nto locate are spirits. If the spirits of Horn and Silk weren't there, \nshe wouldn't find them. And meeting the Rajan in the Whorl raises the \nexact same question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thought exactly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps her astral powers are not spiritual as the Neighbors are but \nonly mental. She finds physical souls (mental patterns). She can find \nSilk's. She knows that Horn's is in the Neighbor because of her previous \nexperiences with the Neighbor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T04:05:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC879CA.5090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Any male human body would respond to Seawrack's singing with rape. \nThat's what it does to the male of the species. So it matters less what \nis actually animating that body. Maybe Silk would have found a way to \navoid it (Ulysses did)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nMy answer exactly. Sexuality is of the flesh. A spirit entering a gendered body will\n\nrespond according to the house it finds itself in. A demon becomes an incubus or succubus\n\ndepending on the sort of body it possesses while on earth. I think something similar is \n\ngoing on with the sexuality of inhumi.\n\n \n\nHm. Horn in OBW does seem a bit like Odysseus, who leaves his faithful wife and loyal son\n\nto go on a mandated oceanic journey. Unfortunately Horn didn't have quite the same large\n\nand experienced crew, who filled their ears with wax and lashed Odysseus to the mast as they \n\npassed the sirens, iirc. Odysseus begged them to free him (but they couldn't hear).\n\n \n\nAnyway, giving Horn protection from attacks by non-human creatures seems to be at least part \n\nof Babbie's role. I consider Seawrack to be such an attack. Krait also, and that crusty, \n\nmulti-limbed thing from the sea too. Babbie does his best in each case. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC88596.2030901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T04:44:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC879CA.5090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If her astral powers are at all to make any sense, what she is able \nto locate are spirits. If the spirits of Horn and Silk weren't \nthere, she wouldn't find them. And meeting the Rajan in the Whorl \nraises the exact same question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nMy thought exactly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nPerhaps her astral powers are not spiritual as the Neighbors are but \nonly mental. She finds physical souls (mental patterns). She can find \nSilk's. She knows that Horn's is in the Neighbor because of her \nprevious experiences with the Neighbor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you guys are right, it occurs to me that she might have found the \nRajan in her search because the Rajan was the only living version of \nSilk at the time she went looking." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC90997.7070509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T14:07:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/2011 11:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, giving Horn protection from attacks by non-human creatures seems to be at least part\n\nof Babbie's role. I consider Seawrack to be such an attack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes a lot of sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<02D42C5978BB452092908DA0FA49188C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T14:36:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<5424B232-9800-407D-8ED3-02B9B7ED6861@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is similar to Gerry's refutation about the fact that the Rajan claimed to know \nsomething about the Mother's worshippers but not /everything/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you know very well, that was just intended as one of many examples of how he seems to know essentially diddley squat about the Neighbours. \nHaving read as far as the chapter “Krait”, the idea that he was replaced by a Neighbour in the pit seems bizarre to me. Just consider the most obvious point: he needs the help of an inhumu to get out! And to get it he betrays his wife and family. Unless you think this Neighbour is a spy for his race and a rather nasty piece of work, or a very impulsive and impulsive creature with no conscience, how do you explain this?\nThe “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, and the “long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes closed are presumably Neighbours. [Are we supposed to think of Severian? Doesn’t make much sense for him to be there though.] The long-nosed man seemingly uses a device on him that sends him on a short astral excursion. I think it is likely that this device *changed* him in some way by granting him or causing him to develop certain psychic abilities (they probably developed as a consequence of his temporary exposure as well as subsequent experimentation and other events). But he is still Horn. \nAssuming the Neighbours were present and are essentially benevolent, it seems they could not help him in the obvious way, i.e. by getting him out of the pit, as Krait did. But this ties in very well with the notion that they are half-in, half-out of our dimension, and are limited in their physical abilities (see also the corpses in the sewer on Green).\nSo that’s my working theory so far. I don’t disagree with James’s assertion that the Neighbours have something of Faerie about them, but Horn ain’t no changeling.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC9119D.8040706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T14:41:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<02D42C5978BB452092908DA0FA49188C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\nHaving read as far as the chapter “Krait”, the idea that he was \nreplaced by a Neighbour in the pit seems bizarre to me. Just consider \nthe most obvious point: he needs the help of an inhumu to get out! And \nto get it he betrays his wife and family. Unless you think this \nNeighbour is a spy for his race and a rather nasty piece of work, or a \nvery impulsive and impulsive creature with no conscience, how do you \nexplain this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what? You'll have to outline your objection a little better. When \ndoes a Wolfe character ever take complete moral responsibility for \neverything? What do the Neighbors owe him after unkilling him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, and the \n“long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes \nclosed are presumably Neighbours. [Are we supposed to think of \nSeverian? Doesn’t make much sense for him to be there though.] The \nlong-nosed man seemingly uses a device on him that sends him on a \nshort astral excursion. I think it is likely that this device \n*changed* him in some way by granting him or causing him to develop \ncertain psychic abilities (they probably developed as a consequence of \nhis temporary exposure as well as subsequent experimentation and other \nevents). But he is still Horn.\nAssuming the Neighbours were present and are essentially benevolent, \nit seems they could not help him in the obvious way, i.e. by getting \nhim out of the pit, as Krait did. But this ties in very well with the \nnotion that they are half-in, half-out of our dimension, and are \nlimited in their physical abilities (see also the corpses in the sewer \non Green)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As fairies always are." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A2D8773078841A3A14551830348C00E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T14:48:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC879CA.5090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps [Mucor’s] astral powers are not spiritual as the Neighbors are but \nonly mental. She finds physical souls (mental patterns). She can find \nSilk's. She knows that Horn's is in the Neighbor because of her previous \nexperiences with the Neighbor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She sees Quetzal as “the man who isn’t there”. And she sees Silk as “filled” during her exorcism, where everyone else looks hollow. Don’t know how those fit, but just noting it. It would be interesting to know how she sees chems, but I don’t think we are told.\n\nI guess it may be something Wolfe has decided to leave a little vague anyway. I’m not sure there is a super-consistent model to find.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T15:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC9119D.8040706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Having read as far as the chapter “Krait”, the idea that he was \nreplaced by a Neighbour in the pit seems bizarre to me. Just consider \nthe most obvious point: he needs the help of an inhumu to get out! And \nto get it he betrays his wife and family. Unless you think this \nNeighbour is a spy for his race and a rather nasty piece of work, or a \nvery impulsive and impulsive creature with no conscience, how do you \nexplain this? [that was supposed to read “impulsive and irrational”]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what? You'll have to outline your objection a little better. When \ndoes a Wolfe character ever take complete moral responsibility for \neverything? What do the Neighbors owe him after unkilling him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You’re missing the point. If they were trying to help him, they didn’t do a very good job of it, but that’s consistent with them doing as much as they could (the astral projection device). But if they were sending one of their own to replace him, they did a really terrible job insofar as after the replacement he was still stuck in the pit — that requires an astounding degree of impulsiveness and irrationality! And finally if they intended to replace him and offer Krait his family to get him out, that makes them downright non-benevolent, and doesn’t work with the whole storyline.\nOnly the first option is really tenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, and the \n“long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes \nclosed are presumably Neighbours. [Are we supposed to think of \nSeverian? Doesn’t make much sense for him to be there though.] The \nlong-nosed man seemingly uses a device on him that sends him on a \nshort astral excursion. I think it is likely that this device \n*changed* him in some way by granting him or causing him to develop \ncertain psychic abilities (they probably developed as a consequence of \nhis temporary exposure as well as subsequent experimentation and other \nevents). But he is still Horn.\nAssuming the Neighbours were present and are essentially benevolent, \nit seems they could not help him in the obvious way, i.e. by getting \nhim out of the pit, as Krait did. But this ties in very well with the \nnotion that they are half-in, half-out of our dimension, and are \nlimited in their physical abilities (see also the corpses in the sewer \non Green)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As fairies always are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. Like I said, I agree with James that they have some things in common with fairies. But they have characteristics that are quite untypical of fairies, too.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC91904.1020306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T15:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 10:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/20/2011 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Having read as far as the chapter “Krait”, the idea that he was\nreplaced by a Neighbour in the pit seems bizarre to me. Just consider\nthe most obvious point: he needs the help of an inhumu to get out! " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And\nto get it he betrays his wife and family. Unless you think this\nNeighbour is a spy for his race and a rather nasty piece of work, \nor a\nvery impulsive and impulsive creature with no conscience, how do you\nexplain this? [that was supposed to read “impulsive and irrational”]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what? You'll have to outline your objection a little better. When\ndoes a Wolfe character ever take complete moral responsibility for\neverything? What do the Neighbors owe him after unkilling him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You’re missing the point. If they were trying to help him, they didn’t \ndo a very good job of it, but that’s consistent with them doing as \nmuch as they could (the astral projection device). But if they were \nsending one of their own to replace him, they did a really terrible \njob insofar as after the replacement he was still stuck in the pit ? \nthat requires an astounding degree of impulsiveness and irrationality! \nAnd finally if they intended to replace him and offer Krait his family \nto get him out, that makes them downright non-benevolent, and doesn’t \nwork with the whole storyline.\nOnly the first option is really tenable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are notoriously amoral \nand, as you say, limited in their powers. Why expect the Neighbors to be \nperfectly moral and powerful? When are fairies ever that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3441FB044E874E0BAE66480CD5EEA468@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T15:35:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC91904.1020306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/20/2011 10:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nYou’re missing the point. If they were trying to help him, they didn’t \ndo a very good job of it, but that’s consistent with them doing as \nmuch as they could (the astral projection device). But if they were \nsending one of their own to replace him, they did a really terrible \njob insofar as after the replacement he was still stuck in the pit ? \nthat requires an astounding degree of impulsiveness and irrationality! \nAnd finally if they intended to replace him and offer Krait his family \nto get him out, that makes them downright non-benevolent, and doesn’t \nwork with the whole storyline.\nOnly the first option is really tenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are notoriously amoral \nand, as you say, limited in their powers. Why expect the Neighbors to be \nperfectly moral and powerful? When are fairies ever that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All but the Increate are limited in their powers. If you want to argue that the Neighbours are subject to mad impulses, maybe you could say that makes them like fairies also. On the other hand, fairies don’t usually have high tech space-faring civilisations (which also reads against super-impulsiveness), and are not usually preyed upon by vampires. And the Neighbours *do* in fact seem to have a strong moral sense even though it certainly does not make them paragons who never do evil. In some ways, the Neighbours are quite unlike fairies, even if they resemble them in others.\nSo while I don’t dispute that there are some Faerie-like elements in their make-up, I do not think they are fairies.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC920AE.3050107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T15:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<3441FB044E874E0BAE66480CD5EEA468@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 10:35 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAnd the Neighbours *do* in fact seem to have a strong moral sense even \nthough it certainly does not make them paragons who never do evil. In \nsome ways, the Neighbours are quite unlike fairies, even if they \nresemble them in others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the main things about fairies is that we will never entirely \nunderstand them. Hmm, whom does that remind me of ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321804007.68461.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T15:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC91904.1020306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nI agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are\nnotoriously amoral and, as you say, limited in their powers.\nWhy expect the Neighbors to be perfectly moral and powerful?\nWhen are fairies ever that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I have to step in here. I don't think they are entirely fairies in that they are the \"next step of man\" toward the hierogrammate evolution, so putting a primitive amorality on them is not consistent with their \"outside and beyond\" reality presence in the case of short sun, where the vanished gods watch the eucharist scene and where the Outsider's will is being done. Just my 2 cents, though I do think the destruction of man is implicit in Horn's deal with Neighbor Horn." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FF73CAE-81CA-474A-845E-9F1EC480F3AD@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T17:23:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC91904.1020306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are notoriously amoral and, as you say, limited in their powers. Why expect the Neighbors to be perfectly moral and powerful? When are fairies ever that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, they aren't amoral. An seemingly unending list of strange rules govern their behavior. Rather, their morality is alien to ours. So one ought expect that a human who consults with Faeries is going to behave immorally by human standards. Think of the sorceress Medea who burned her own children. From her perspective she was making them immortal, purging them of their mortal parts. (To go to Faerie is also to go to the Underworld, the Land of the Dead.)\n\nGerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors must be acting in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were talking about a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\n\nJust because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of personal guilt does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision. \n\nIncidentally, I consider Horn's replacement here to be instructed by the story from the Mabinogion of Pwyll who chased a white stag into Faerie (Annwvyn) and ended up having to swap identities with a faerie." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T18:33:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<8FF73CAE-81CA-474A-845E-9F1EC480F3AD@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and the “long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "closed are presumably Neighbours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHm, yep. Gerry weren't you asking for fauns a while back? I think you've\n\nfound them. Add some bristly hair on the arm to those eyes and that\n\nsnout and multi-limbs for their faerie/Pan multiple images and Neighbors\n\nmake some pretty good fauns.\n\n \n\nMoreover, Silk(y hair)+ Horn(s) also make a nice faun equation (add Hoof\n\nand Hide if you like). Thus the origin of Silver Silk and Silent Silk- the \n\nfauns Silvanus and Silenus. Silk (father-figure) is a man and Horn (son-figure) \n\nis a man but some third essence is needed to make him a god. A bit of Neighbor \n\nmaybe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: kay, I have to step in here. I don't think they are entirely " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fairies in that they are the \"next step of man\" toward the hierogrammate " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "evolution, so putting a primitive amorality on them is not consistent with " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "their \"outside and beyond\" reality presence in the case of short sun, where " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the vanished gods watch the eucharist scene and where the Outsider's will is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "being done. Just my 2 cents," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nBut the Neighbors do show amorality in their treatment of each other and humans,\n\nat least in the past. They may have had cities and spaceships in the past but\n\nnow they are living like primitives on Blue. Isn't this a parallel to humans on\n\nUrth and Ushas? \n\n \n\nIt just seems like you have to bend and distort the story too much to get the \n\nNeighbors as the future of humanity, Marc. For me, so many elements of your \n\ntheories fall perfectly and simply into place if Neighbors can be seen as a\n\nmagical but primitive, previous part of human history and development as faeries \n\nand fauns are to us.\n\n \n\nIt seems clear to me that Wolfe presents us with higher beings than humans in\n\nthe form of the hiero-types, the angelic hierarchy. Can you imagine B, F and O\n\nand/or Tzadkiel and Apheta living in the woods, hunting and gathering around a \n\ncampfire? I think they are our future and Wolfe presents everything about them\n\nin a manner which reflects that. \n\n \n\nThe Green Man may (as B, F and O suggest) have more knowledge and power than they \n\ndo. I completely agree that he is likely meant as a connection to The Neighbors\n\nin some way. Your \"tree connection\" is spot on. But The Green Man is another name \n\nfor Great God Pan, a powerful, but primitive deity with plant associations (including\n\nthe vines of Dionysus). No matter how powerful and mystic this god is, he can never\n\nbe as spiritually advanced as we (Christians,I assume Wolfe means) are. It is the \n\nangels who are spiritually superior to us, not the rustic, pagan gods of the past.\n\n \n\nBut I understand that once you have set upon a path for many years it isn't easy or \n\neven desirable to backtrack and reroute. But as I see it, doing that would\n\nallow for a shorter, simpler path to what you are aiming for. Just my 2 cents,\n\nof course. With apologies. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2695DBFA-74BB-408E-8A02-EF79B1045A21@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "athornton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T18:51:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 20, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nThe Green Man may (as B, F and O suggest) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone noticed that B, F, and O are all spectral types that burn hotter, brighter, and more short-lived than G-class stars, such as the Sun? (is there an \"A\" we're missing?)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, \n and the “long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes \nclosed are presumably Neighbours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm, yep. Gerry weren't you asking for fauns a while back? I think you've\nfound them. Add some bristly hair on the arm to those eyes and that\nsnout and multi-limbs for their faerie/Pan multiple images and Neighbors\nmake some pretty good fauns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or add fins and blowholes and they make pretty good whales. So you’re saying that Silk is a Neighbour? Because, IIRC, it was Silk you were identifying with a faun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, Silk(y hair)+ Horn(s) also make a nice faun equation (add Hoof\nand Hide if you like). Thus the origin of Silver Silk and Silent Silk- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whales have silky foreskins (Aristotle Onassis used them for cushions on his yacht). Thus we bring in the phallus theme too. And narwhals have horns.\n\nAh, yes. Very like a whale.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321816030.93167.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:07:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n \n\nThe Green Man may (as B, F and O suggest) have more\nknowledge and power than they \n\ndo. I completely agree that he is likely meant as a\nconnection to The Neighbors\n\nin some way. Your \"tree connection\" is spot on. But\nThe Green Man is another name \n\nfor Great God Pan, a powerful, but primitive deity with\nplant associations (including\n\nthe vines of Dionysus). No matter how powerful and mystic\nthis god is, he can never\n\nbe as spiritually advanced as we (Christians,I assume Wolfe\nmeans) are. It is the \n\nangels who are spiritually superior to us, not the rustic,\npagan gods of the past.\n\n \n\nBut I understand that once you have set upon a path for\nmany years it isn't easy or \n\neven desirable to backtrack and reroute. But as I see it,\ndoing that would\n\nallow for a shorter, simpler path to what you are aiming\nfor. Just my 2 cents,\n\nof course. With apologies. ???\n????????\n?????? ???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a few things. I DO see resemblances between the city of the inhumi and nessus, from the sewer to the \"grove of disintegrating towers like a noble face rotting in the grave\" used to describe the city on Green. \n\nAnother thing is that the whorl left in the past, may have experienced relativistic speed, and is probably in typhon's future because there is NO indication it travelled through the time distortions of the ship on Urth of the New Sun. In addition, when they show up on urth the narator says, \"I wanted to take us to green, where Sinew is. I wanted to see him again, as I still do, I wanted you others ... to see wha real evil is, so that you might undestand why we on blue must come together in brotherwhood BEFORE OUR OWN WHORL BECOMES WHAT GREEN ALREADY IS.' I fell silent, forced to think myself about what I myself had just said.\n\nHe wants them to see the condition that led to what Green is, to see what it was, when he winds up on Urth. There is nothing about seeing what Green will one day become. i think this is a REAL temporal inversion to see Green as a past Urth, that makes no textual sense and has no textual support. If Green is the future of Urth, the vanished people have \"every right to be there\" because they are actually men, it explains how the inhumi are everywhere, it explains how \"man climbed up in his tree and has not come down yet\" from long sun, and we don't have to worry about how everybody wound up in the past, we only have to explain how the solar system changed during the cataclysm of the coming of the new sun.\n\nAnd that hunter gatherer system you are describing is not an accurate picture of the neighbors - they are elsewhere. Sounds more like a description of HePenSheep and those guys, who have gone native but are not Neighbors." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:14:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/20, ?s 18:33, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe presents us with higher beings than \nhumans in the form of the hiero-types, the angelic hierarchy. Can \nyou imagine B, F and O and/or Tzadkiel and Apheta (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excuse me, but I don't think those are higher than humans.\n\nI also don't see why Marc's neighbours bend the story too much - \nwhere's the young lady when we need her?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2203B72B-A7E8-48B3-9607-A6C0B548584D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:18:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321816030.93167.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/20, ?s 19:07, Marc Aramini \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that hunter gatherer system you are describing is not an \naccurate picture of the neighbors - they are elsewhere. Sounds more \nlike a description of HePenSheep and those guys, who have gone \nnative but are not Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neighbours, of course, are the Nox. And as for the Furlings..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7A74DAD511AF4AEF95743D75B5C8CA91@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:18:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<8FF73CAE-81CA-474A-845E-9F1EC480F3AD@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors must be acting\nin concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were talking about \na human character, he wouldn't make that mistake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you think I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often act in concert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of personal guilt \ndoes not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you saying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour bending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or actively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn was stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went” refers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of them. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or helped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded him of what he was.\n\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321816950.125.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7A74DAD511AF4AEF95743D75B5C8CA91@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some disturbing deathly images.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors must be acting" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were talking about " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\n\n\n\nI don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you think I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often act in concert." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of personal guilt " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision. \n\nI can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you saying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour bending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or actively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn was stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went” refers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of them. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or helped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded him of what he was.\n\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<64BC4935-6285-4A54-A677-3609CA514066@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<02D42C5978BB452092908DA0FA49188C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/20, ?s 14:36, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it was from someone else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is similar to Gerry's refutation about the fact that the \nRajan claimed to know\nsomething about the Mother's worshippers but not /everything/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you know very well, that was just intended as one of many \nexamples of how he seems to know essentially diddley squat about the \nNeighbours.\n\nHaving read as far as the chapter “Krait”, the idea that he was \nreplaced by a Neighbour in the pit seems bizarre to me. Just consid \ner the most obvious point: he needs the help of an inhumu to get out \n! And to get it he betrays his wife and family. Unless you think t \nhis Neighbour is a spy for his race and a rather nasty piece of work \n, or a very impulsive and impulsive creature with no conscience, how \n do you explain this?\n\nThe “glittering eyes” he sees while lying semi-conscious, and the \n“long nosed man or spider” that he apparently sees with his eyes \nclosed are presumably Neighbours. [Are we supposed to think of Seve \nrian? Doesn’t make much sense for him to be there though.] The lon \ng-nosed man seemingly uses a device on him that sends him on a short \n astral excursion. I think it is likely that this device *changed* \nhim in some way by granting him or causing him to develop certain p \nsychic abilities (they probably developed as a consequence of his te \nmporary exposure as well as subsequent experimentation and other eve \nnts). But he is still Horn.\n\nAssuming the Neighbours were present and are essentially benevolent, \nit seems they could not help him in the obvious way, i.e. by getting \nhim out of the pit, as Krait did. But this ties in very well with \nthe notion that they are half-in, half-out of our dimension, and are \nlimited in their physical abilities (see also the corpses in the \nsewer on Green).\n\nSo that’s my working theory so far. I don’t disagree with \nJames’s assertion that the Neighbours have something of Faerie about \n them, but Horn ain’t no changeling.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321817261.96009.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:27:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7A74DAD511AF4AEF95743D75B5C8CA91@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also Gerry, the quote in chapter 10, Seawrack says, \"YOU WERE DEAD\". I don't know how you can say there is no evidence that he was dead when it at least ambiguously says so." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321817334.83564.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321816950.125.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind of where my eaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to commune with neighbors, eucharist, etc.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:22 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\nUhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some disturbing deathly images.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors must be acting" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were talking about " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\n\n\n\nI don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you think I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often act in concert." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of personal guilt " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision. \n\nI can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you saying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour bending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or actively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn was stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went” refers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of them. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or helped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded him of what he was.\n\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321817523.83932.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:32:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7A74DAD511AF4AEF95743D75B5C8CA91@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could resurrect him after he dies, then we have been reading a very different series of books, my friend." } ] }, { "message_id": "<90B9C045616446869DA7E5ABFCD07253@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:39:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321816950.125.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of my life was oveer.\nThe pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was dead? come on man \nthere are at least some disturbing deathly images." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " That’s why I qualified “indicates” with “strongly”.\n\n As for the first, he says the best part of his life was over, indicating that a worse part was to come. And indeed, he spent days lying semi-conscious, thirsting and abandoned in a pit, then betrayed his family to the inhumi to get out, then not too long after got kidnapped to a hell planet and killed. So it sounds like a fair assessment.\n\n Seawrack thought he was dead, but she, while she may have been born human, knows nothing of humans (*except* perhaps ones that are lured by sirens and are quickly killed).\n\n So yes, some deathly images. But no reason to think he actually died then, IMO.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95805.8080406@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:41:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321816950.125.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the problem with your approach is that you seek the \"absolute\" - not\nsimilarity (in certain - important - respects), but identity; death must be\ndeath (not in a metaphorical sense); neighbours cannot just be connected to\nthe trees (e.g. trees be their \"totem\"), but must be related to them in \na very strong sense (e.g. be\ntheir genetical \"children\") etc. To me the power of Wolfe's SF is that \nat the same\ntime it is very subtle psychological literature - and very precise and\ndeep and realistic description of humanity (not only humanity).\n\nHave not many of us (I mean this list!) have such strong ties with\nsomebody (a friend, a lover, a parent, a dog... ) that one could say that\nhe left a part of himself in this person (or has an \"imprint\" of\nthis person in himself forever)? Why discussing Babbie we need\nto assume that all that was left of Horn went into him?\n\nHad not some of us had situations when it was possible to say\n(seriously!) that a better part of us (our soul) died?\n\nBut do we need after that say something like \"poor NN,\nafter his divorce all that was left of his former soul\nwent into his dog\"? We may - but why we want\nto understand such things literally reading Wolfe?\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nUhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of \nmy life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she \nsay he was dead? come on man there are at least some disturbing \ndeathly images.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: Gerry Quinn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n \n \n *From:* James Wynn\n \n > Gerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors\n must be acting\n >\n in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were\n talking about\n >\n a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\n \n I don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you\n think I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often act\n in concert.\n\n\n \n >\n Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\n personal guilt\n >\n does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision.\n I can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\n saying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour bending\n over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or actively\n killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn was stuck in a\n pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n \n Also, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went” refers to\n Neighbours, there must have been more than one of them. Surely\n they would have dissuaded their comrade, or helped him if they\n could not dissuade him. Or just reminded him of what he was.\n \n Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\n indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious\n that he didn’t. \n \n - Gerry Quinn\n \n \n \n\n -----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321818188.95594.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:43:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<90B9C045616446869DA7E5ABFCD07253@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack doesn't say I thought you were dead, she says, you were dead. This is why we will never ever ever read Wolfe the same way - you can dismiss these things as, Seawrack didn't know what she was takling about, while I think Wolfe is being sneaky and HORN doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't understand what really happened to him. The chapter is \"the end\"? I take it literally, you never ever ever ever will, so we can never agree, but to deny that it's in the text is to deny the text.\n\nForever and forever and forever, the two of us must agree to disagree.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:39 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of my life was oveer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was dead? come on man \nthere are at least some disturbing deathly images." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s why I qualified “indicates” with “strongly”.\n\nAs for the first, he says the best part of his life was over, indicating that a worse part was to come. And indeed, he spent days lying semi-conscious, thirsting and abandoned in a pit, then betrayed his family to the inhumi to get out, then not too long after got kidnapped to a hell planet and killed. So it sounds like a fair assessment.\n\nSeawrack thought he was dead, but she, while she may have been born human, knows nothing of humans (*except* perhaps ones that are lured by sirens and are quickly killed).\n\nSo yes, some deathly images. But no reason to think he actually died then, IMO.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. \n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC958A3.3020608@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:44:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321817261.96009.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is said in the context when Seawrack tries naively to justify herself \n(why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the life on land. \nMother\nsaid that she must learn.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nAlso Gerry, the quote in chapter 10, Seawrack says, \"YOU WERE DEAD\". \nI don't know how you can say there is no evidence that he was dead \nwhen it at least ambiguously says so.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<095242D55D5041EBBB395694E6F6F949@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321817261.96009.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also Gerry, the quote in chapter 10, Seawrack says, \"YOU WERE DEAD\". I \ndon't know how you can say there is no evidence that he was dead when \nit at least ambiguously says so. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How would she know? She didn’t go down in the pit to check on him. She just assumed, which as we all know makes an ass out of u and me. \n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95947.9000808@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:47:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321817334.83564.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And because she thinks that Horn is dead, she is afraid to come\nbecause all her undersea wild instincts may awake. She is afraid\nthat she may want to eat Horn. She is too afraid to check whether\nhe is alive. And she wants so much to be like \"normal\" humans.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nAlso, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind of where my \neaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to commune with neighbors, \neucharist, etc.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini //* wrote:\n\n\n From: Marc Aramini \n Subject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:22 AM\n\n Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part\n of my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition,\n doesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some\n disturbing deathly images.\n\n --- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: Gerry Quinn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n \n \n *From:* James Wynn\n \n > Gerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the\n Neighbors must be acting\n >\n in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we\n were talking about\n >\n a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\n \n I don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you\n think I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often\n act in concert.\n\n\n \n >\n Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\n personal guilt\n >\n does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision.\n I can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\n saying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour\n bending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or\n actively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn\n was stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n \n Also, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went”\n refers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of\n them. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or\n helped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded\n him of what he was.\n \n Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\n indicates that he did and a million things that make it\n obvious that he didn’t. \n \n - Gerry Quinn\n \n \n \n\n -----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC959AF.6080106@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321817523.83932.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My opinion is that this \"additional\" resurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nAnd if you insist there is nothing that could resurrect him after he \ndies, then we have been reading a very different series of books, my \nfriend.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321818575.65592.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:49:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC958A3.3020608@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "so when the avern killed severian was that just a symbolic death too? Yes, I am an absolutist. Some folks are. I honstly think Gene is too, but of course, not eveeryone agrees with me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:44 AM\nIt is said in the context when\nSeawrack tries naively to justify herself (why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the\nlife on land. Mother\nsaid that she must learn.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also Gerry, the quote in chapter 10, Seawrack says,\n\"YOU WERE DEAD\". I don't know how you can say there is\nno evidence that he was dead when it at least ambiguously\nsays so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321818618.66148.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC95947.9000808@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nah, she knows he's tree food." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:47 AM\nAnd because she thinks that Horn is\ndead, she is afraid to come\nbecause all her undersea wild instincts may awake. She is\nafraid\nthat she may want to eat Horn. She is too afraid to check\nwhether\nhe is alive. And she wants so much to be like \"normal\"\nhumans.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind\nof where my eaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to\ncommune with neighbors, eucharist, etc.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini //*\nwrote:\n\n\n? ???From: Marc Aramini \n? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Like a\ngood Neighbor\n? ???To: \"The Urth Mailing List\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\n? ???Date: Sunday, November 20,\n2011, 11:22 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ???Uhh ... the chapter is titled\n\"the end\" and it says \"the best part\n? ???of my life was oveer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pit was its grave\". In addition,\n? ???doesn't she say he was\ndead? come on man there are at least some\n? ???disturbing deathly images." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ???--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry\nQuinn //*\nwrote:\n\n\n? ? ? ???From: Gerry\nQuinn \n? ? ? ???Subject: Re:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor\n? ? ? ???To: \"The Urth\nMailing List\" \n? ? ? ???Date: Sunday,\nNovember 20, 2011, 11:18 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? ? ? ? ???*From:* James\nWynn\n? ? ? ???\n? ? ? ???> Gerry's\nmistake (one of them) is thinking that all the\n? ? ? ???Neighbors must\nbe acting\n? ? ? ???>\n? ? ? ???in concert,\nalways with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we\n? ? ? ???were talking\nabout\n? ? ? ???>\n? ? ? ???a human\ncharacter, he wouldn't make that mistake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? I don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t\nknow where you\n? ? ? ???think I have\nsuggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often\n? ? ? ???act in concert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? >\n? ? ? ???Just because a\nyoung faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\n? ? ? ???personal guilt\n? ? ? ???>\n? ? ? ???does not mean he\nstopped to plan beyond that decision." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ???I can’t\nunderstand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\n? ? ? ???saying Horn was\ndead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour\n? ? ? ???bending over\nhim? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or\n? ? ? ???actively killed\nhim, he’d have had time to notice that Horn\n? ? ? ???was stuck in a\npit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\n? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? Also, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and\nwent”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ???refers to\nNeighbours, there must have been more than one of\n? ? ? ???them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or\n? ? ? ???helped him if\nthey could not dissuade him. Or just reminded\n? ? ? ???him of what he\nwas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing\nthat strongly\n? ? ? ???indicates that\nhe did and a million things that make it\n? ? ? ???obvious that he\ndidn’t. ? ? ? ? ? ?\n? ? - Gerry Quinn\n? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?\n? ? ? ? ? ? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ???-----Inline\nAttachment Follows-----\n\n? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???_______________________________________________\n? ? ? ???Urth Mailing\nList\n? ? ? ???To post, write\nurth at urth.net\n? ? ? ???\n? ? ?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321818730.69873.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC959AF.6080106@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well well well ... and Severian's fall in the ship on urth? his sacrifice in the temple of apupunchau? the themati drowning, the death by flower, did all these deaths and resurrections in the same series do the work harm? This is a mystical work, but there are occasionally explanations to the at first inexplicable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:49 AM\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\"\nresurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could\nresurrect him after he dies, then we have been reading a\nvery different series of books, my friend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95AE2.6020409@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:54:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321818575.65592.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don' think it was symbolic death to Severian. In BotNS resurrections play\na very different role, there is a series of them and compositionally\nthe importance of each episode grows until Severian understands that\nthey are resurrections. Moreover, he doesn't understand what energy\nis involved until the moment (in the UotNS) when he tries to heal\ninside the Tzadkiel spaceship.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nso when the avern killed severian was that just a symbolic death too? Yes, I am an absolutist. Some folks are. I honstly think Gene is too, but of course, not eveeryone agrees with me.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:44 AM\nIt is said in the context when\nSeawrack tries naively to justify herself (why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the\nlife on land. Mother\nsaid that she must learn.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also Gerry, the quote in chapter 10, Seawrack says,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"YOU WERE DEAD\". I don't know how you can say there is\nno evidence that he was dead when it at least ambiguously\nsays so.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321818965.67714.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<90B9C045616446869DA7E5ABFCD07253@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What gets me is the points where the narrators ponder if they understand what they are saying: \"I had to think about what I myself had just said ... it is possible no one understands\" that leads me to believe they mysteries are soluble, not just open ended mysteries. \" I have given only scattered hints in spite of all my efforts\"\n\nThose are metatextual statements that the structure is indicated through those scattered hints. \"not my words, not my words\"\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:39 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part of my life was oveer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was dead? come on man \nthere are at least some disturbing deathly images." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s why I qualified “indicates” with “strongly”.\n\nAs for the first, he says the best part of his life was over, indicating that a worse part was to come. And indeed, he spent days lying semi-conscious, thirsting and abandoned in a pit, then betrayed his family to the inhumi to get out, then not too long after got kidnapped to a hell planet and killed. So it sounds like a fair assessment.\n\nSeawrack thought he was dead, but she, while she may have been born human, knows nothing of humans (*except* perhaps ones that are lured by sirens and are quickly killed).\n\nSo yes, some deathly images. But no reason to think he actually died then, IMO.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates that he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. \n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95B6C.90007@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321818730.69873.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn is a very different character, and what is good for the development\nof the character of Severian, is not good for Horn.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell well well ... and Severian's fall in the ship on urth? his sacrifice in the temple of apupunchau? the themati drowning, the death by flower, did all these deaths and resurrections in the same series do the work harm? This is a mystical work, but there are occasionally explanations to the at first inexplicable.\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:49 AM\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\"\nresurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "resurrect him after he dies, then we have been reading a\nvery different series of books, my friend.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321819068.15966.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC95B6C.90007@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Horn re-enacts Sevs flooding when he gets a light, a dark sword, and cleans out corpses to make way for a flood of purifying water. So how different are they, really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:56 AM\nHorn is a very different character,\nand what is good for the development\nof the character of Severian, is not good for Horn.\n\nSergei\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well well well ... and Severian's fall in the ship on\nurth? his sacrifice in the temple of apupunchau?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the themati drowning, the death by flower, did all these\ndeaths and resurrections in the same series do the work\nharm? This is a mystical work, but there are\noccasionally explanations to the at first inexplicable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV \nwrote:\n\n???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:49 AM\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\"\nresurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n? ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could\n? ? ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "resurrect him after he dies, then we have been\nreading a\nvery different series of books, my friend.\n? ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "? ? ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------\n? ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95C2C.20008@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T19:59:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321818965.67714.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this - but as we see, my interpretation of concrete text is \ndifferent\nof yours (we agreed to disagree). I think that open questions sometimes are\nmore important that the answers suggested in haste - and so many theories\ncome to suggest just that - answers, without meditation on the questions.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nWhat gets me is the points where the narrators ponder if they \nunderstand what they are saying: \"I had to think about what I myself \nhad just said ... it is possible no one understands\" that leads me to \nbelieve they mysteries are soluble, not just open ended mysteries. \" \nI have given only scattered hints in spite of all my efforts\"\n \nThose are metatextual statements that the structure is indicated \nthrough those scattered hints. \"not my words, not my words\"\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: Gerry Quinn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:39 AM\n\n \n \n *From:* Marc Aramini\n \n \n ****************\n > Uhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best\n part of my life was oveer.\n \n > The pit was its grave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was\n dead? come on man\n > there are at least some disturbing deathly images.\n \n That’s why I qualified “indicates” with “strongly”.\n \n As for the first, he says the best part of his life was over,\n indicating that a worse part was to come. And indeed, he spent\n days lying semi-conscious, thirsting and abandoned in a pit, then\n betrayed his family to the inhumi to get out, then not too long\n after got kidnapped to a hell planet and killed. So it sounds\n like a fair assessment.\n \n Seawrack thought he was dead, but she, while she may have been\n born human, knows nothing of humans (*except* perhaps ones that\n are lured by sirens and are quickly killed).\n \n So yes, some deathly images. But no reason to think he actually\n died then, IMO.\n \n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n --- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\n indicates that he did and a million things that make it\n obvious that he didn’t. \n\n\n -----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95D02.6030209@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T20:03:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321819068.15966.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the point - he re-enacts him differently!\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nBut Horn re-enacts Sevs flooding when he gets a light, a dark sword, and cleans out corpses to make way for a flood of purifying water. So how different are they, really?\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:56 AM\nHorn is a very different character,\nand what is good for the development\nof the character of Severian, is not good for Horn.\n\nSergei\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well well well ... and Severian's fall in the ship on\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "urth? his sacrifice in the temple of apupunchau? \nthe themati drowning, the death by flower, did all these\ndeaths and resurrections in the same series do the work\nharm? This is a mystical work, but there are\noccasionally explanations to the at first inexplicable.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:49 AM\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\"\nresurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "resurrect him after he dies, then we have been\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "reading a\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "very different series of books, my friend.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321819415.20637.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T20:03:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC95C2C.20008@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you don't understand how I came to the tree apotheosis theory, it was a rigorous crossreferencing that took months almost a decade ago, and it wasn't composed in haste. I do not hastily propose anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:59 AM\nI agree with this - but as we see, my\ninterpretation of concrete text is different\nof yours (we agreed to disagree). I think that open\nquestions sometimes are\nmore important that the answers suggested in haste - and so\nmany theories\ncome to suggest just that - answers, without meditation on\nthe questions.\n\nSergei\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What gets me is the points where the narrators ponder\nif they understand what they are saying: \"I had to think\nabout what I myself had just said ... it is possible no one\nunderstands\" that leads me to believe they mysteries are\nsoluble, not just open ended mysteries. \" I have given\nonly scattered hints in spite of all my efforts\"\n? Those are metatextual statements that the\nstructure is indicated through those scattered hints." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"not my words, not my words\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //*\nwrote:\n\n\n? ???From: Gerry Quinn \n? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Like a\ngood Neighbor\n? ???To: \"The Urth Mailing List\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\n? ???Date: Sunday, November 20,\n2011, 11:39 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???*From:* Marc Aramini\n? ???\n? ? ? ? ? ****************\n? ???> Uhh ... the chapter is\ntitled \"the end\" and it says \"the best\n? ???part of my life was oveer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? > The pit was its\ngrave\". In addition, doesn't she say he was\n? ???dead?? come on man\n? ???> there are at least some\ndisturbing deathly images.\n? ? ? ? ? That’s why I\nqualified “indicates” with “strongly”.\n? ? ? ? ? As for the first, he\nsays the best part of his life was over,\n? ???indicating that a worse part\nwas to come. And indeed, he spent\n? ???days lying semi-conscious,\nthirsting and abandoned in a pit, then\n? ???betrayed his family to the\ninhumi to get out, then not too long\n? ???after got kidnapped to a hell\nplanet and killed. So it sounds\n? ???like a fair assessment.\n? ? ? ? ? Seawrack thought he\nwas dead, but she, while she may have been\n? ???born human, knows nothing of\nhumans (*except* perhaps ones that\n? ???are lured by sirens and are\nquickly killed).\n? ? ? ? ? So yes, some deathly\nimages. But no reason to think he actually\n? ???died then, IMO.\n? ? ? ? ? - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n? ???--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry\nQuinn //*\nwrote:\n\n? ? ? ???Horn didn’t\ndie in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\n? ? ? ???indicates that\nhe did and a million things that make it\n? ? ? ???obvious that he\ndidn’t. \n\n? ???-----Inline Attachment\nFollows-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC95E8D.2090208@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-20T20:09:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321819068.15966.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once I found a dead cat on a winter road - a cat killed by car, pressed \nflat and frozen,\nwith intestines around.\nI felt that I have to take it off and give it a more decent burial. \nBelieve me,\nit was not pleasant or easy. Maybe I could do what Horn did - cut corpses by\nsword and clean the sewer, though it would be harder. I could not be a \ntorturer\nand executioner, like Severian. I think that they are very different, and\nwhen you say that they are similar, it is imagination, not experience.\nThere is similarity, but difference is important.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nBut Horn re-enacts Sevs flooding when he gets a light, a dark sword, and cleans out corpses to make way for a flood of purifying water. So how different are they, really?\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:56 AM\nHorn is a very different character,\nand what is good for the development\nof the character of Severian, is not good for Horn.\n\nSergei\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well well well ... and Severian's fall in the ship on\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "urth? his sacrifice in the temple of apupunchau? \nthe themati drowning, the death by flower, did all these\ndeaths and resurrections in the same series do the work\nharm? This is a mystical work, but there are\noccasionally explanations to the at first inexplicable.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/20/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:49 AM\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\"\nresurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And if you insist there is nothing that could\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "resurrect him after he dies, then we have been\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "reading a\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "very different series of books, my friend.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------------------------------------------------\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC98C57.7070409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T23:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321804007.68461.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 10:46 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Sun, 11/20/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are\nnotoriously amoral and, as you say, limited in their powers.\nWhy expect the Neighbors to be perfectly moral and powerful?\nWhen are fairies ever that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I have to step in here. I don't think they are entirely fairies in that they are the \"next step of man\" toward the hierogrammate evolution, so putting a primitive amorality on them is not consistent with their \"outside and beyond\" reality presence in the case of short sun, where the vanished gods watch the eucharist scene and where the Outsider's will is being done. Just my 2 cents, though I do think the destruction of man is implicit in Horn's deal with Neighbor Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That ought to count as amorality right there, although no one said it \nwas \"primitive.\" Even if they ARE being moral, why should we understand \ntheir morality? They are aliens after all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC98E20.7000601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-20T23:32:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<8FF73CAE-81CA-474A-845E-9F1EC480F3AD@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/20/2011 12:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI agree. You're missing your own point. Fairies are notoriously amoral and, as you say, limited in their powers. Why expect the Neighbors to be perfectly moral and powerful? When are fairies ever that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, they aren't amoral. An seemingly unending list of strange rules govern their behavior. Rather, their morality is alien to ours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THANK you. Their amorality is \"apparent\" to humans because it's not \nhuman morality and certainly not Christian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So one ought expect that a human who consults with Faeries is going to behave immorally by human standards. Think of the sorceress Medea who burned her own children. From her perspective she was making them immortal, purging them of their mortal parts. (To go to Faerie is also to go to the Underworld, the Land of the Dead.)\n\nGerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the Neighbors must be acting in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we were talking about a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See below. I do think that Neighbors are culturally less divided than we \nhumans are, but this doesn't mean they all work in the same Office of \nIntervention in Human Affairs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of personal guilt does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact, fairies are always doing things \"apparently\" on a whim---they \noften go against their own code (the \"seemingly unending list of strange \nrules [that] govern their behavior\"). Usually this is in what you might \ncall \"literary\" fairy stories rather than the traditional ones, but the \nprecedent exists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, I consider Horn's replacement here to be instructed by the story from the Mabinogion of Pwyll who chased a white stag into Faerie (Annwvyn) and ended up having to swap identities with a faerie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. Although the exact deployment of \"swap\" is left pretty open." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC98EA2.6060903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T23:34:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC959AF.6080106@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 1:49 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nMy opinion is that this \"additional\" resurrection does Wolfe's\nbook harm, not good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said before, ambiguity is a central element of Wolfe's fiction. The \nstories are filled with events that the reader *knows* occurs but have \nreasonable *altenate* explanations. Number Five does not find his \nfathers books on the W shelf in the library, so maybe he was wrong about \nthe last name. But if Seawrack did not *truly* believe Horn was \ndead--because she had some genuine reason solid reason for believing he \nwas dead--then I have never read a Wolfe story.\n\nI honestly cannot imagine why there is any debate on this issue. This is \nabout as emphatic a signal that Wolfe offers.\n\nArguing about what it means that Horn was resurrected...I get that. \nArguing about whether Silk killed himself? I get that as well. Arguing \nabout whether Horn died when he fell in to the pit? Come on. Seawrack is \nthe witness. She doesn't even feel the need to justify her assessment \neven after Horn return alive. She's been a carrion eater. She knows dead \nthings." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-20T23:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC98EA2.6060903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/20, ?s 23:34, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arguing about whether Horn died when he fell in to the pit? Come on. \nSeawrack is the witness. She doesn't even feel the need to justify \nher assessment even after Horn return alive. She's been a carrion \neater. She knows dead things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All drowned ones. No, if you want to take as evidence any character's \nimpression on this, I don't think Seawrack cuts it. But maybe Babbie \ndoes on account of his psychicness - the same that makes it odd that a \nNeighbour should be out of touch with other Neighbours. . And there's \nthe issue of whether he could have physically survived the fall. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC99908.2050002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T00:19:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nArguing about whether Horn died when he fell in to the pit? Come on. \nSeawrack is the witness. She doesn't even feel the need to justify \nher assessment even after Horn return alive. She's been a carrion \neater. She knows dead things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio:\nAll drowned ones. No, if you want to take as evidence any character's \nimpression on this, I don't think Seawrack cuts it. But maybe Babbie \ndoes on account of his psychicness - the same that makes it odd that a \nNeighbour should be out of touch with other Neighbours. . And there's \nthe issue of whether he could have physically survived the fall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Babbie agreed with Seawrack. If you want to argue that it is \nimpossible for a Neighbor to be out of touch with other Neighbors, fine. \nI don't see it, but have at it. Horns death and resurrection is a \nmystery in the novel. But whether it happened is not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC99C2F.10905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T00:32:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321804007.68461.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 9:46 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nJust my 2 cents, though I do think the destruction of man is implicit in Horn's deal with Neighbor Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...I did not catch this implication in your theory. I do not like. I \nmean, how does this comport with your concept of the Rajan as a \nChrist-figure (which I definitely agree with)? I have other reasons be \nunhappy with the man-eating tree theory, but this implication pushes me \nfurther down that hallway." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T01:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC98EA2.6060903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if Seawrack did not *truly* believe Horn was \ndead--because she had some genuine reason solid reason for believing he \nwas dead--then I have never read a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She knows nothing about human life except that humans die easily and are eaten. She saw it happen her human, and she turned away without investigating. She didn’t go down in the pit. How *could* she have known he was dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I honestly cannot imagine why there is any debate on this issue. This is \nabout as emphatic a signal that Wolfe offers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have the testimony of Horn himself, who clearly was not dead. When do you think he died, exactly? When he fell? At a certain point when he was lying there? Did the Neighbour — if it was a Neighbour - kill him when he touched his forehead with his device? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arguing \nabout whether Horn died when he fell in to the pit? Come on. Seawrack is \nthe witness. She doesn't even feel the need to justify her assessment \neven after Horn return alive. She's been a carrion eater. She knows dead \nthings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Get real. She didn’t get within twenty feet of him. Silk thought Oreb was dead when he had him right in his hands, and he’s a professional animal sacrificer. Do you think Oreb was dead then? Smart bird! Play dead. No cut!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC9A88D.2020403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T01:25:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn \n\n > But if Seawrack did not *truly* believe Horn was\n > dead--because she had some genuine reason solid reason for believing he\n > was dead--then I have never read a Wolfe story.\nShe knows nothing about human life except that humans die easily and are\neaten. She saw it happen her human, and she turned away without\ninvestigating. She didn’t go down in the pit. How *could* she have known he\nwas dead?\n\n > I honestly cannot imagine why there is any debate on this issue. This is\n > about as emphatic a signal that Wolfe offers.\nWe have the testimony of Horn himself, who clearly was not dead. When do you\nthink he died, exactly? When he fell? At a certain point when he was lying\nthere? Did the Neighbour — if it was a Neighbour - kill him when he touched\nhis forehead with his device?\n\n > Arguing\n > about whether Horn died when he fell in to the pit? Come on. Seawrack is\n > the witness. She doesn't even feel the need to justify her assessment\n > even after Horn return alive. She's been a carrion eater. She knows dead\n > things.\nGet real. She didn’t get within twenty feet of him. Silk thought Oreb was\ndead when he had him right in his hands, and he’s a professional animal\nsacrificer. Do you think Oreb was dead then? Smart bird! Play dead. No cut!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James has it as 'God pwm!' :(" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T01:29:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC99908.2050002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All drowned ones. No, if you want to take as evidence any character's \nimpression on this, I don't think Seawrack cuts it. But maybe Babbie \ndoes on account of his psychicness - the same that makes it odd that a \nNeighbour should be out of touch with other Neighbours. . And there's \nthe issue of whether he could have physically survived the fall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Babbie agreed with Seawrack. If you want to argue that it is \nimpossible for a Neighbor to be out of touch with other Neighbors, fine. \nI don't see it, but have at it. Horns death and resurrection is a \nmystery in the novel. But whether it happened is not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Babbie got it wrong, unless he died at a very specific time:\n***********************************************************\nSunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun. It vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw Babbie’s familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit. I closed them again, and the next time I opened them he had gone.\n\nI think it was not long afterward that I came to myself. I sat up, cold, full of pain, and terribly thirsty. It was as if my spirit had gone and left my body unoccupied as it did on Green; but in this case it had returned, and my memories (such as they were) were those of the body and not those of the spirit. It was day again, perhaps mid afternoon. I was sitting among earth and fallen leaves in a pit about twelve cubits deep.\n***********************************************************\n\nNow you will say that the second paragraph even talks about his spirit going! But there’s a problem. When the long-nose man bent over him, he was already suffering thirst, so if he died then it happened *after* this time, in which case Babbie saw him alive.\n\nHow do you make sense of that? The long-nose man bends over a Neighbour? Who and why?\n\nWhen does Horn die?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC9AAE1.8010202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T01:35:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n***********************************************************\nSunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful\nto look at the sun. It vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of\nit, and saw Babbie’s familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the\npit. I closed them again, and the next time I opened them he had gone.\n\nI think it was not long afterward that I came to myself. I sat up, cold,\nfull of pain, and terribly thirsty. It was as if my spirit had gone and left\nmy body unoccupied as it did on Green; but in this case it had returned, and\nmy memories (such as they were) were those of the body and not those of the\nspirit. It was day again, perhaps mid afternoon. I was sitting among earth\nand fallen leaves in a pit about twelve cubits deep.\n***********************************************************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to play the devil's advocate, but 'I closed them again, and the next \ntime I opened them he had gone.' followed by a paragrapsh break, followed by \n'I think it was not long afterward that I came to myself.' can not \nunreasonably be interpreted as his dying, or getting to the brink of, under \nBabbie's gaze, Babbie leaving convinced he was dead, and his coming back to \nlife (or his body being reanimated by a Neighbour spirit, but I don't like \nhat) slowly a bit later. Long loss of conscience which seems like a short \nwhile when waking is quite normal." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EC9B83F.20109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T02:32:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 11/20/2011 7:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n[Seawrack] nows nothing about human life except that humans\ndie easily and are eaten. She saw it happen her human, and she\nturned away without investigating. She didn't go down in the pit.\nHow *could* she have known he was dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if say his head were turned at a wrong angle.\nYeah, she's no doctor. And yet she doesn't seem to doubt her assessment \neven when Horn comes marching back alive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Get real. She didn't get within twenty feet of him.\nSilk thought Oreb was dead when he had him right in his hands,\nand he's a professional animal sacrificer. Do you think Oreb was\n dead then?\nSmart bird! Play dead. No cut!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Oreb was possessed. Whether he was clinically dead for a short \ntime is beyond our ability to discern from the text. I believe he was \nclose enough to dead that even an experienced augur could not tell the \ndifference. Pas (or whatever other god was possessing him) did not want \nto be sacrificed. You're right that it doesn't make sense that he was \nfaking or fainted.\nAre you saying that a god or Neighbor was possessing Horn so he could \nescape from, uh, Seawrack?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 11/20/2011 7:29 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n When the long-nose man bent over him, he was already suffering\n thirst,\nso if he died then it happened *after* this time, in which case" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Babbie saw him alive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you make sense of that? The long-nose man bends over a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Neighbour? Who and why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When does Horn die?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Full text for analysis:\n\n ***************************\n From OBW, end of Chapter 8, \"The End\"\n\n I threw my slug gun to my shoulder and was able to get off one quick\n shot. The greenbuck broke stride and stumbled to its knees, but in\n less than a breath it had bounded up again, cutting right and\n running hard. It vanished into brush, and I sprinted after it, all\n my fatigue forgotten, guided by Babbie's agitated hunck-hunck-bunck!\n Very suddenly I was falling into darkness.\n\n\nAmbiguity is inextricable from Wolfe's stories, but I am going to posit \nthat he dies right here.\n\n\n Here and thus baldly I had intended to end both tonight's labor and\n this whole section of my narrative. I wiped this new quill of Oreb's\n and put it away, shut up the scuffed little pen case I found where\n my father must have left it in the ashes of our old shop, and locked\n the drawer that holds this record, a thick sheaf of paper already.\n\n\nThe following three sentences is why I think Horn died at this point. I \nthink the rest of the story is essentially told from the POV of a new \ncharacter, whom we have previously met only as a greenbuck. In this, \nWolfe has perfect the first-person ambiguity that he had been \nexperimenting with at least since the Fifth Head of Cerberus. But \nwhatever one believes, there has clear been a traumatic break in the story.\n\n\n *But it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer's\n drawing his map and the rest.*\n *Either that fall must be the end of the entire work (which might be\n wisest) or else it cannot close at all.*\n So let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best\n part of my life was over. The pit was its grave.\n It must be very late, but I cannot sleep. Somewhere very far away,\n Seawrack is singing to her waves.\n *********************************\n\n ***************************\n From OBW, from the beginning of Chapter 9, \"Krait\"\n\nI posit that the rest of the memories are during the time Horn's body \nwas being repaired by the Neighbor. Thus they are memories from Horn's \nperspective. But he is not truly revived yet.\n\n\n When I regained consciousness it must have been almost shadelow. I\n lay on my back for a long while then, occasionally opening my eyes\n and shutting them again, seeing without thinking at all about\n anything I saw. The sky darkened, and the stars came out. I remember\n seeing Green directly above my up-turned face, and later seeing it\n no longer, but only the innocent stars that had fled before it and\n returned when it had gone.\n\n It was at about that time that I felt the cold. I knew I was cold\n and wished that I were not. I may have moved, rubbing myself with my\n hands or hugging myself and shivering; I cannot be sure. Glittering\n eyes and sharp faces came and went, but I appealed for no help and\n received none.\n\n Sunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be\n painful to look at the sun. It vanished, and I opened them to see\n what had become of it, and saw Babbie's familiar, hairy mask peering\n at me over the edge of the pit. I closed them again, and the next\n time I opened them he had gone.\n I think it was not long afterward that I came to myself. I sat up,\n cold, full of pain, and terribly thirsty.\n\n [...]\n\n This is what I least wished to write about last night, but I am\n going to try to write it down this evening. Once, as I lay there at\n the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man with a long nose\n (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not move or\n even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He\n touched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished.\n\n\nThis fellow with the prominent nose is our narrator. When this scene \noccurs is not stated. Perhaps it occurred in the seconds before Horn \ndied. It might have occurred after Horn was repaired but just as the \nNeighbor took the final act to reanimate him. For the sake of argument, \nI'll say the former.\n\n ****************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T03:04:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC9B83F.20109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Or add fins and blowholes and they make pretty good whales. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNo Gerry. Try to focus please. Neighbors are fauns, not whales. No fins, \n\nno blowholes. Just horns and hairy arms and a bit of magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you’re saying that Silk is a Neighbour? Because, IIRC, it was Silk " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you were identifying with a faun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWere you unaware of James' theory that Silk is combined with the essence\n\nof a Neighbor (who are faerie and fauns). If you grasp that Silk was \n\npossessed by The Outsider, who is akin to Dionysus, you wouldn't struggle \n\nand become so frustrated by it. Nobody expects you to understand the \n\nDionysisan connection to the trinity but Neighbor=faun is perfectly within\n\nyour abilities. I swear.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T04:43:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: And that hunter gatherer system you are describing is not an \naccurate picture of the neighbors - they are elsewhere. Sounds more \nlike a description of HePenSheep and those guys, who have gone \nnative but are not Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI shouldn't have said the Neighbors hunt, true. Horn finds them while on a hunt.\n\nBut they are gathered around a fire. If they were living as advanced spaceage\n\nbeings, wouldn't they have a ship and some warmth/light technology greater than fire?\n\n \n\nNow, they used to have spaceships. That's how they got to Green. I take the circle\n\nof glass Horn encounters to be fused sand from a rocket launch. They used to have \n\ncities also, on Blue, but they are ruins beneath the waves. \n\n \n\nI know we differ on this point, Marc but that's how I see the situation. Green is Urth, \n\na corrupt, infested planet which needs to be cleansed. Blue has been cleansed. Severian \n\nfirst detects human life on Ushas by the glow of their fires. Horn first detects \n\nNeighbors by the dots of light of their fires also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe presents us with higher beings than \nhumans in the form of the hiero-types, the angelic hierarchy. Can \nyou imagine B, F and O and/or Tzadkiel and Apheta (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: Excuse me, but I don't think those are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI have no problem with your thoughts about angels, Entonio. \n\nBut Gene Wolfe does think they are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan: JJ: Okay. Oh... Severian's sexual relationship with her (Apheta). What " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is the purpose of that?...here you have an angelic being takes him for the night. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is going on there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe: I think that the ideal of the higher being trying to raise the lower " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "being to a greater height perhaps. And also the attraction that the lower being at least " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "properly should feel toward the higher being. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA4114.8010608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T12:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-11-2011 04:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe presents us with higher beings than\nhumans in the form of the hiero-types, the angelic hierarchy. Can\nyou imagine B, F and O and/or Tzadkiel and Apheta (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Entonio: Excuse me, but I don't think those are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no problem with your thoughts about angels, Entonio.\n\nBut Gene Wolfe does think they are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did you get that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<293B7EC250334AE89DB1BAEDC686DCD5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T12:36:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC9B83F.20109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 11/20/2011 7:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n[Seawrack] nows nothing about human life except that humans \ndie easily and are eaten. She saw it happen her human, and she \nturned away without investigating. She didn’t go down in the pit. \nHow *could* she have known he was dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if say his head were turned at a wrong angle. \nYeah, she's no doctor. And yet she doesn't seem to doubt her assessment even \nwhen Horn comes marching back alive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She’s rationalising her guilt, I think.\n\nHere’s one scenario I think possible:\n\nHorn fell in and was badly concussed. [As with Auk before him, this was the prelude to a mystical evolution, but that’s not germane to the episode, it’s just a trope that Wolfe recycles.] The Neighbours did their best to help him but they live in another dimension and can’t move anything physical or bring him water. What they did was touch his forehead with a mental amplifier that temporarily gave him the ability to astrally travel and get help. Unfortunately he went to Nettle who could not help him and indeed became frightened, thinking I suppose that he was a ghost or inhumu. \n\nThe only other human or quasi-human entity on the island at that time was Seawrack (Krait may have been hanging around already, but even if the Neighbours knew that, they wouldn’t have expected him to help). It is possible that they didn’t recognise Seawrack as human. It’s also possible that they tried to communicate with her but she fled. We know she is terrified of Neighbour constructions at least — it’s probable that she is even more terrified of Neighbours. \n\nIt was this abandonment of Horn due to her fear that she is rationalising. Of course the simple scenario that she is ignorant of human life and ordinary death — everyone she has met has quickly died and stayed dead — is also perfectly possible.\n\nIt was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated Horn’s subsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We already see that he has changed when he is going with Krait to find Seawrack — he sees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a consciousness of detail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the change is the sort of thing we might particularly expect to associate with a Neighbour psyche — affinity with trees, consciousness of other dimensions, feeling he’s missing limbs, whatever. \n\nHe doesn’t develop superpowers just like that, it requires other events and experiences — his experiences on Green, his death, his experiments on inhumi which he is *contemplating carrying out in the future* during his time as Rajan of Gaon.\n\nAnyway, that’s my working theory for the moment. I think it fits the facts and involves the swallowing of fewer camels than scenarios in which Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Get real. She didn’t get within twenty feet of him. \nSilk thought Oreb was dead when he had him right in his hands, \nand he’s a professional animal sacrificer. Do you think Oreb was dead then? \nSmart bird! Play dead. No cut!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe Oreb was possessed. Whether he was clinically dead for a short time \nis beyond our ability to discern from the text. I believe he was close enough to \ndead that even an experienced augur could not tell the difference. Pas (or whatever\n other god was possessing him) did not want to be sacrificed. You're right that it \ndoesn't make sense that he was faking or fainted. \nAre you saying that a god or Neighbor was possessing Horn so he could escape \nfrom, uh, Seawrack?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I’m saying that an experienced observer thinking someone is dead when they’re not is a scenario that has already happened in the story, so you can hardly discount it as ridiculous! And in Silk’s case the observer was better experienced and had the dead person in their hand, instead of looking down twenty feet over a dangerous drop in a place that terrifies the observer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 11/20/2011 7:29 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n When the long-nose man bent over him, he was already suffering thirst,\nso if he died then it happened *after* this time, in which case Babbie saw him alive.\nHow do you make sense of that? The long-nose man bends over a Neighbour? \nWho and why?\nWhen does Horn die?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ************************\n I threw my slug gun to my shoulder and was able to get off one quick shot. The greenbuck broke stride and stumbled to its knees, but in less than a breath it had bounded up again, cutting right and running hard. It vanished into brush, and I sprinted after it, all my fatigue forgotten, guided by Babbie’s agitated hunck-hunck-bunck!\n Very suddenly I was falling into darkness.\n ************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ambiguity is inextricable from Wolfe's stories, but I am going to posit that he dies \nright here.\nI posit that the rest of the memories are during the time Horn's body was being \nrepaired by the Neighbor. Thus they are memories from Horn's perspective. But \nhe is not truly revived yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So all this time while he’s opening and shutting his eyes, and watching stuff going on around him like Babbie’s appearance.... he’s dead?\n\n ***********************************\n Sunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun. It vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw Babbie’s familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit. I closed them again, and the next time I opened them he had gone.\n I think it was not long afterward that I came to myself. I sat up, cold, full of pain, and terribly thirsty.\n\n [...]\n\n This is what I least wished to write about last night, but I am going to try to write it down this evening. Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man with a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not move or even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He touched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished. \n ******************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This fellow with the prominent nose is our narrator. When this scene occurs is \nnot stated. Perhaps it occurred in the seconds before Horn died. It might have \noccurred after Horn was repaired but just as the Neighbor took the final act to \nreanimate him. For the sake of argument, I'll say the former." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but we *do* know something about when it happened — that was the very point I was making in my post! When it happened Horn went to Nettle (in his mind at least) and told her he was dying of thirst. So it must have happened *after* the events of the previous paragraph above!\n\nIt happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up.\n\nThat seems like a very serious problem for any “Horn died” scenario, IMO\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<89C0F041FCC047F0834041905084766A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T13:02:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you’re saying that Silk is a Neighbour? Because, IIRC, it was Silk \nyou were identifying with a faun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Were you unaware of James' theory that Silk is combined with the essence\nof a Neighbor (who are faerie and fauns). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but as I understand it James’s theory supposes that this combination happened when Horn returned to the Whorl. Your attempts to identify Silk with a faun are based on certain syllables of epithets he was given by the inhabitants of the Whorl [for unrelated reasons clearly explained in the text, which you chose to completely ignore] at a period *before* Horn returned.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<988E7802-D8C3-4302-906B-F949EE1D4352@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T13:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<293B7EC250334AE89DB1BAEDC686DCD5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From OBW:\n\"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry wrote:\nIt happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it is BEFORE he sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T14:05:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<89C0F041FCC047F0834041905084766A@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So you’re saying that Silk is a Neighbour? Because, IIRC, it was Silk \nyou were identifying with a faun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Were you unaware of James' theory that Silk is combined with the essence\nof a Neighbor (who are faerie and fauns). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nYes, but as I understand it James’s theory supposes that this combination happened when Horn returned to the Whorl. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Associating fauns (or any other half animal/human being) with faerie creatures is no great leap as anyone who has read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe (or An Evil Guest) should know." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T14:19:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have no problem with your thoughts about angels, Entonio.\nBut Gene Wolfe does think they are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Where did you get that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Wolfe quote about angels and Apheta was from the James Jordan interview,\ntoward the end. http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth2" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that view is untenable, and I support my contention with events described\nin the text, not chapter titles and formatting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I respect your view, Gerry and have no interest in changing it. The issue, as always,\nis whether you respect the views of others or not and that you find the need for\nothers to change their view to yours.\n\nI don't understand why chapter titles and formatting are not part of the text for you.\nThe first definition I find is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "text: a (1) : the original words and form of a written or printed work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In allseriousness, I think you miss much if you don't read the chapter titles. Wolfe\nmakes important use of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I were Marc, I should be far less offended by those who honestly disagree with his\ntheories [which indeed to many of us are seriously out to lunch, and we honestly say so]\nthan by your apparent belief that he can be manipulated into becoming a proxy warrior for\nyour attempts to render this list a comfortable environment for torrents of un-thought out\ndrivel.\nI have noted also your recent attempts to get Marc to change his theory so it becomes vague,\nambiguous, meaningless, and therefore hard to falsify. If you were honest, you’d instead have\ntold him what you think is right about it and what you think is wrong with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you are very good at understanding Marc, Gerry. But I do think that was a very\nhonest post on your part by calling his theories \"out to lunch\" and a \"torrent of unthought\nout drivel\". I can see why you don't find those insulting words to be offensive. You, yourself,\nseem to relish and thrive on personal attacks against you so it makes sense that you are trying\nto follow The Golden Rule.\n\nYou also honestly make it clear you hope to make this an uncomfortable environment for certain\npeople. I really appreciate that blunt statement of your intentions and goals here. It is what\nI've been saying about you for a while and I appreciate your affirmation. This \"sowing seeds of\ndiscontent among your enemies\" is a new tactic for you Gerry. It will be interesting where you\ngo with it.\n\nMarc and I differ mostly on one key point. He views the Sun Series as depicting the\nchronological and spiritual future of our own earth. I view it as an alternate universe\nwhich depicts our spiritual past in a futuristic light.\n\nThis small difference leads to a number of interesting disagreements on interpretation. We\nhave discussed this and there is no dishonesty involved. Moreover, I have no interest in\nmaking this board and uncomfortable environment for him because, 1. his insights and\nobservations increase my own understanding; 2. I like the guy, as much as that has meaning\nin this forum. He is pleasant, thoughtful and intelligent. Why would I ever want to chase him\n(or anyone else) away? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA6876.5000400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-11-2011 14:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It seems clear to me that Wolfe presents us with higher beings\nthan humans in the form of the hiero-types, the angelic\nhierarchy. Can you imagine B, F and O and/or Tzadkiel and Apheta\n(...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Entonio: Excuse me, but I don't think those are higher than\nhumans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have no problem with your thoughts about angels, Entonio. But Gene\nWolfe does think they are higher than humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Where did you get that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wolfe quote about angels and Apheta was from the James Jordan\ninterview, toward the end.\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth2" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sense of 'higher' in the interview is not the same as the one in your\nargument.\n'Angels' are certainly 'closer to God' in Christian view, but it's 'Humans' \nthat Creation exists for. You'll find that in every Christian work, \nincluding Tolkien's. Angels are not a stage Humans are supposed to climb to. \nNow, certainly, Gene Wolfe isn't chained to that view, and the hierofolk \naren't even presented as analogues to angels in what regards their origin, \nbut they actually are quite similar in their function." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2487114869464FA8B2F62C7BA480D270@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:05:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<988E7802-D8C3-4302-906B-F949EE1D4352@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n From OBW:\n \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay there at the \nbottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it is BEFORE\n he sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You’re forgetting the *thirst*. It was when he came to himself and sat up that he noticed he was thirsty. When the long-nosed man sent him on his astral voyage, he told Nettle he was dying of thirst. So the long-nosed man must have come after Horn came to himself and sat up.\n\nHe lay there both before and after sitting up that time. What else would he do to rest? He could not climb walls or lick dew for days on end. So “once as I lay there” tells us nothing. But the thirst tells us the sequence of events.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA6921.5050501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:07:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7A74DAD511AF4AEF95743D75B5C8CA91@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 2:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates \nthat he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good lord." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5F5F8B814E1B4920B501D3B8D44BEDB1@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:20:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I were Marc, I should be far less offended by those who honestly disagree with his\ntheories [which indeed to many of us are seriously out to lunch, and we honestly say so]\nthan by your apparent belief that he can be manipulated into becoming a proxy warrior for\nyour attempts to render this list a comfortable environment for torrents of un-thought out\ndrivel.\nI have noted also your recent attempts to get Marc to change his theory so it becomes vague,\nambiguous, meaningless, and therefore hard to falsify. If you were honest, you’d instead have\ntold him what you think is right about it and what you think is wrong with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think you are very good at understanding Marc, Gerry. But I do think that was a very\nhonest post on your part by calling his theories \"out to lunch\" and a \"torrent of unthought\nout drivel\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc’s theories, whatever one thinks about their likelihood and coherence, are thought out. He does not babble daily in a new direction based on a new bit of random noise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see why you don't find those insulting words to be offensive. You, yourself,\nseem to relish and thrive on personal attacks against you so it makes sense that you are trying\nto follow The Golden Rule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting that you admit for the first time your history of personal attacks on me, rather than accusing me of what is your technique, not mine. Why the change?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You also honestly make it clear you hope to make this an uncomfortable environment for certain\npeople. I really appreciate that blunt statement of your intentions and goals here. It is what\nI've been saying about you for a while and I appreciate your affirmation. This \"sowing seeds of\ndiscontent among your enemies\" is a new tactic for you Gerry. It will be interesting where you\ngo with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your tactics for what they are.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA6CEE.4060902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:23:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC958A3.3020608@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 2:44 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nIt is said in the context when Seawrack tries naively to justify \nherself (why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the life on \nland. Mother\nsaid that she must learn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack is INTIMATELY familiar with dead humans. She knows how water \ntreats them and how they taste, and their texture. it's the living ones \nwhere she has knowledge gaps." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA6D63.5030205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:25:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4EC95947.9000808@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is at least plausible.\n\nWhy do you think a death here harms the story? How do you explain Horn's \nnewfound abilities?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 2:47 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nAnd because she thinks that Horn is dead, she is afraid to come\nbecause all her undersea wild instincts may awake. She is afraid\nthat she may want to eat Horn. She is too afraid to check whether\nhe is alive. And she wants so much to be like \"normal\" humans.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind of where my \neaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to commune with neighbors, \neucharist, etc.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:22 AM\n\nUhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part\nof my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition,\ndoesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some\ndisturbing deathly images.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n*From:* James Wynn\n\nGerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the\nNeighbors must be acting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we\nwere talking about" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\nI don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you\nthink I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often\nact in concert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\npersonal guilt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision.\nI can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\nsaying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour\nbending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or\nactively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn\nwas stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went”\nrefers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of\nthem. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or\nhelped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded\nhim of what he was.\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\nindicates that he did and a million things that make it\nobvious that he didn’t. - Gerry Quinn\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA74F9.1080206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T15:57:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA6D63.5030205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence - that \neither there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first makes the whole \nstory a sham (not so much for us as for the characters), the second \nintroduces an element that not only seems to be otherwise absent from LS/SS, \nbut is applied to Horn in particular with no justification." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA79C0.4000901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:18:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 8:29 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt was as if my spirit had gone and left my body unoccupied as it did \non Green; but in this case it had returned, and my memories (such as \nthey were) were those of the body and not those of the spirit. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, Gerry. This is merely a clumsy metaphor. Wolfe should know \nbetter than to expose hapless readers to such misleading cues. He meant \nto say that Horn felt really awful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7B4C.7060009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/2011 10:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWere you unaware of James' theory that Silk is combined with the \nessence of a Neighbor (who are faerie and fauns). If you grasp that \nSilk was possessed by The Outsider, who is akin to Dionysus, you \nwouldn't struggle and become so frustrated by it. Nobody expects you \nto understand the Dionysisan connection to the trinity but \nNeighbor=faun is perfectly within your abilities. I swear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For that matter, it is really easy to imagine the Green Man (Man of \nGreen?) in his natural habitat, behaving very much like a faun. He's not \nquite a fairy, as those people are beings of power and pomp. Fauns have \nnone. But he lives in the green wood like a being more of it than in it.\n\nNeighbors do seem to be a little of both. I'm skeptical of conflating \nthem, but fauns are plainly an important literary forerunner to the Sun \nCycle." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7CDE.8020407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:31:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<2487114869464FA8B2F62C7BA480D270@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From OBW:\n \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,...\n\nGerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay \nthere at the\nbottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it is \nBEFORE\nhe sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You’re forgetting the *thirst*. It was when he came to himself and sat \nup that he noticed he was thirsty. When the long-nosed man sent him on \nhis astral voyage, he told Nettle he was dying of thirst. So the \nlong-nosed man must have come after Horn came to himself and sat up.\nHe lay there both before and after sitting up that time. What else \nwould he do to rest? He could not climb walls or lick dew for days on \nend. So “once as I lay there” tells us nothing. But the thirst tells \nus the sequence of events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, are you saying a man can't be thirsty twice before he has a drink?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7D4E.80109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:33:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA74F9.1080206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence - \nthat either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first makes \nthe whole story a sham (not so much for us as for the characters), the \nsecond introduces an element that not only seems to be otherwise \nabsent from LS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular with no \njustification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. What justification is needed for a character on a great, impossible \nquest to die and be resurrected before he achieves his goal?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7D7D.1010207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<5F5F8B814E1B4920B501D3B8D44BEDB1@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your \ntactics for what they are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a reminder that your own tactics are on full view as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA79C0.4000901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/20/2011 8:29 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt was as if my spirit had gone and left my body unoccupied as it did \non Green; but in this case it had returned, and my memories (such as \nthey were) were those of the body and not those of the spirit. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right, Gerry. This is merely a clumsy metaphor. Wolfe should know \nbetter than to expose hapless readers to such misleading cues. He meant \nto say that Horn felt really awful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can take it literally, if you like. He’s talking of the period when he lay semi-conscious in the pit, and his fragmented memories of that time are dissociated from his returned spirit. He even contrasts it with the time he actually died.\nWhy not tackle the more substantive issues? Do you think Horn died, and if so when? Before or after the time he “saw” the long-nosed man? Before or after he got thirsty?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F47459905144A109B16B2805D678BAF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:40:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7CDE.8020407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, are you saying a man can't be thirsty twice before he has a drink?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When he came to himself and sat up (after a period in which he was not really conscious at all — his spirit wasn’t present, as he puts it), he was “terribly thirsty”. [Also cold and full of pain, which he mentions first.]\n\nSome days went by, in which (as he tells us) he desperately tried to scrape droplets of dew from the walls.\n\nWhen the long-nosed man came and sent him on his astral jaunt, he told Nettle that he was “dying of thirst”. Not that he was “terribly thirsty”.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7F59.4050106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:42:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7CDE.8020407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From OBW:\n\"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,...\n\nGerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay\nthere at the\nbottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it is BEFORE\nhe sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You’re forgetting the *thirst*. It was when he came to himself and sat up\nthat he noticed he was thirsty. When the long-nosed man sent him on his\nastral voyage, he told Nettle he was dying of thirst. So the long-nosed\nman must have come after Horn came to himself and sat up.\nHe lay there both before and after sitting up that time. What else would\nhe do to rest? He could not climb walls or lick dew for days on end. So\n“once as I lay there” tells us nothing. But the thirst tells us the\nsequence of events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, are you saying a man can't be thirsty twice before he has a drink?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His thrist should refer to internal bleeding. Whether it is before or after \nthe Neighbours start repairing him cannot be deduced from it alone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7F93.6070502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:42:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA74F9.1080206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I absolutely see that. But I think we need go where the text is taking \nus. As I said, Horn dying and being resurrected is a mystery that we \nshould discuss. WHETHER he dies and resurrects is pretty \nstraightforward. Nothing is more undermining of Wolfe criticism than \ntaking one of his stories and saying, \"This is such-and-such kind of \nstory.\" Wolfe is about subverting those expectations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- that either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first \nmakes the whole story a sham (not so much for us as for the characters), " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No more a sham than discovering at the end of Long Sun that the whole \nthing was written by Horn and Nettle.\nIt doesn't require rejecting what the narrator says, only reinterpreting \nit. After all, the whole book the narrator is saying \"I am Horn\" as the \nall the other characters condescendingly smile and say \"No, you aren't. \nYou're just a little mad.\"\n\nBut there IS a Horn. His memories persist...or at least the memory of \nhis memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the second introduces an element that not only seems to be otherwise \nabsent from LS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular with no \njustification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there IS an awful lot of justification for resurrection in the \nLong Sun/Short Sun. I don't prefer the theory, but there is foundation \nlaid for that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7F99.5080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:43:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7D4E.80109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence -\nthat either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first makes the\nwhole story a sham (not so much for us as for the characters), the second\nintroduces an element that not only seems to be otherwise absent from\nLS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular with no justification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK. What justification is needed for a character on a great, impossible\nquest to die and be resurrected before he achieves his goal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one that explains why it isn't done to every such character in History." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA7FAF.5000107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7D7D.1010207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your\ntactics for what they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a reminder that your own tactics are on full view as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would they be?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:54:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7FAF.5000107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: For that matter, it is really easy to imagine the Green Man \n(Man of Green?) in his natural habitat, behaving very much like a faun. He's not \nquite a fairy, as those people are beings of power and pomp. Fauns have \nnone. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. But it sounds like you have a good sense of how Dionysus, Pan and fauns\nof the Greeks evolved through the Roman, spread across Europe and eventually became \nsuch characters as Oberon, Titania and Puck for a certain Elizabethan playwright." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neighbors do seem to be a little of both. I'm skeptical of conflating \nthem, but fauns are plainly an important literary forerunner to the Sun \nCycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Skeptical you should be. That's what Wolfe wants. Horn describes the Neighbor's hand\nas hard and with short stiff hairs. Then he says, \"I will say no more\". Meaning there\nis more to say. But if Wolfe says it, it will render his work ridiculous, in his own\neyes.\n \nI mean, what if Wolfe had said \"the hand had a resemblance to a cloven hoof, the eyes \nhad a vertical slit pupil. Short horns sprouted behind the ears and there was a bleat to\nhis voice as he sang a greek hymn and drank from his jug of wine\"?\n \nThat's the sort of thing that might make Gerry happy but Wolfe wouldn't have made such \navid devotees of readers such as you and me and many others if he did stuff like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Interesting that you admit for the first time your history of personal attacks \non me, rather than accusing me of what is your technique, not mine. Why the change?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI detect a note of pain. My apologies Gerry, for any cutting, hurtful remarks I may have made. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From your approach to addressing the posts of others, I thought that was your preferred means \nof communication. I thought you were a warrior who relished battle on all levels. I will try \nhard to be more aware of your sensitive, vulnerable side in the future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I shan’t comment further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood luck with that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA823F.6060109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T16:54:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<0F47459905144A109B16B2805D678BAF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry, are you saying a man can't be thirsty twice before he has a \ndrink?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When he came to himself and sat up (after a period in which he was not \nreally conscious at all — his spirit wasn’t present, as he puts it), \nhe was “terribly thirsty”. [Also cold and full of pain, which he \nmentions first.]\nSome days went by, in which (as he tells us) he desperately tried to \nscrape droplets of dew from the walls.\nWhen the long-nosed man came and sent him on his astral jaunt, he told \nNettle that he was “dying of thirst”. Not that he was “terribly thirsty”." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you asking when Horn died, or when he saw Nettle? That is related \nafter Krait comes, so it could be after Krait comes. It could be earlier \ntoo.\n\nAnd what's the difference between \"dying\" and \"terribly\"? I guess he \ndidn't tell Nettle he was cold, so he must have been nice and toasty \nwarm at that point. Right?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321894929.16071.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was just reading that and I realized the short stiff hairs there perfectly match the description of Babbie Hoof gives later when he brushes against his short stiff hairs in astral travel at the end of RTTW. Interesting. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 8:54 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: For that matter, it is really easy to\nimagine the Green Man \n(Man of Green?) in his natural habitat, behaving very\nmuch like a faun. He's not \nquite a fairy, as those people are beings of power and\npomp. Fauns have \nnone. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nYes. But it sounds like you have a good sense of how\nDionysus, Pan and fauns\nof the Greeks evolved through the Roman, spread across\nEurope and eventually became \nsuch characters as Oberon, Titania and Puck for a certain\nElizabethan playwright.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neighbors do seem to be a little of both. I'm skeptical\nof conflating \nthem, but fauns are plainly an important literary\nforerunner to the Sun \nCycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Skeptical you should be. That's what Wolfe wants. Horn\ndescribes the Neighbor's hand\nas hard and with short stiff hairs. Then he says, \"I will\nsay no more\". Meaning there\nis more to say. But if Wolfe says it, it will render his\nwork ridiculous, in his own\neyes.\n \nI mean, what if Wolfe had said \"the hand had a resemblance\nto a cloven hoof, the eyes \nhad a vertical slit pupil. Short horns sprouted behind the\nears and there was a bleat to\nhis voice as he sang a greek hymn and drank from his jug of\nwine\"?\n \nThat's the sort of thing that might make Gerry happy but\nWolfe wouldn't have made such \navid devotees of readers such as you and me and many others\nif he did stuff like that.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Interesting that you admit for the first\ntime your history of personal attacks \non me, rather than accusing me of what is your\ntechnique, not mine. Why the change?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI detect a note of pain. My apologies Gerry, for any\ncutting, hurtful remarks I may have made. \nFrom your approach to addressing the posts of others, I\nthought that was your preferred means \nof communication. I thought you were a warrior who relished\nbattle on all levels. I will try \nhard to be more aware of your sensitive, vulnerable side in\nthe future.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I shan’t comment further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nGood luck with that. ???\n????????\n?????? ???\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8589.9090104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:08:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<2487114869464FA8B2F62C7BA480D270@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From OBW:\n \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,...\n\nGerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay \nthere at the\nbottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it is \nBEFORE\n he sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're forgetting the *thirst*. It was when he came to himself and \nsat up that he noticed he was thirsty. When the long-nosed man sent \nhim on his astral voyage, he told Nettle he was dying of thirst. So \nthe long-nosed man must have come after Horn came to himself and sat \nup. He lay there both before and after sitting up that time. What \nelse would he do to rest? He could not climb walls or lick dew for \ndays on end. So \"once as I lay there\" tells us nothing. But the \nthirst tells us the sequence of events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, Gerry, Gerry... Sigh. I post the text again with the (what I \nmistakenly thought was unnecessary) excised text. :\n\n***************\nThe first paragraph relates events AFTER he encountered and discoursed \nwith Krait.\n\n Last night I stopped writing because I could not bring myself to\n describe the rest of that day, or the night that followed it, or the\n day that followed that, the day on which I licked dew from the sides\n of the pit, lying on my belly at first, then kneeling, then\n standing---and at last, when the Short Sun peeped over the rim and\n the dew was almost gone, wiping the stone above my head with fingers\n that I thrust into my mouth the moment they felt damp. Altogether I\n got two mouthfuls of water, at most. No more than that, certainly,\n and very likely it was less.\n\n\nThe next event relates to EARLIER only shortly after he had encountered \nKrait.\n\n Earlier I had prayed, then cursed every god in my heart when the\n rescuer they sent had proved to be Krait. On that day I did not\n pray, or curse, or any such thing.\n\n\nNOW the rhythm of is telling upended. You have been tricked by Wolfe's \nsubtle story-telling (you are not the first, we've all been there). The \nnext event takes place even earlier.\n\n This is what I least wished to write about last night, but I am\n going to try to write it down this evening. *Once*, as I lay there\n at the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man with a long\n nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not move\n or even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He\n touched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished.\n I was standing in Nettle's kitchen. She was making soup, and I\n watched her add a whole plateful of chopped meat to her kettle and\n shake the fire. She turned and saw me, and we kissed and embraced. I\n explained to her that I was not really in her kitchen at all, that I\n lay at the bottom of a pit in a ruin of the Vanished People on an\n island far away, and that I was dying of thirst.\n \"Oh,\" Nettle said, \"I'll get you some water.\"\n She went to the millstream and brought back a dipper of clean, cool\n water for me; but I could not drink. \"Come with me,\" I told her.\n \"I'll show you where I am, and when you give me your water there\n I'll be able to drink it.\" I took her hand (yes, Nettle my darling,\n I took your hard, hardworking little hand in mine) and tried to lead\n her back to the pit in which I lay. She stared at me then as if I\n were some horror from the grave, and screamed. I can never forget\n that scream.\n And I lay in the pit, as before. The Short Sun was burning gold.\n\n\nThis likely places the events with the long-nosed fellow (our narrator) \non the night before THIS happens (at the beginning of the chapter:\n\"Sunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be \npainful to look at the sun.\"\n****************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C635C6A20804A5C8E7E25E3F18FB60D@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:17:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA823F.6060109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When he came to himself and sat up (after a period in which he was not \nreally conscious at all — his spirit wasn’t present, as he puts it), \nhe was “terribly thirsty”. [Also cold and full of pain, which he \nmentions first.]\nSome days went by, in which (as he tells us) he desperately tried to \nscrape droplets of dew from the walls.\nWhen the long-nosed man came and sent him on his astral jaunt, he told \nNettle that he was “dying of thirst”. Not that he was “terribly thirsty”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you asking when Horn died, or when he saw Nettle? That is related \nafter Krait comes, so it could be after Krait comes. It could be earlier \ntoo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He saw Nettle directly after the “long-nosed man” touched something to his forehead.\nIf he has already died and been resurrected as a Neighbour, who is the long-nosed man and what is he up to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what's the difference between \"dying\" and \"terribly\"? I guess he \ndidn't tell Nettle he was cold, so he must have been nice and toasty \nwarm at that point. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He wasn’t dying of cold. He was dying of thirst.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA88FB.5040404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:23:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:34 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/20/2011 8:29 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It was as if my spirit had gone and left my body unoccupied as it did\non Green; but in this case it had returned, and my memories (such as\nthey were) were those of the body and not those of the spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right, Gerry. This is merely a clumsy metaphor. Wolfe should \nknow\nbetter than to expose hapless readers to such misleading cues. He meant\nto say that Horn felt really awful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can take it literally, if you like. He’s talking of the period \nwhen he lay semi-conscious in the pit, and his fragmented memories of \nthat time are dissociated from his returned spirit. He even contrasts \nit with the time he actually died.\nWhy not tackle the more substantive issues? Do you think Horn died, \nand if so when? Before or after the time he “saw” the long-nosed man? \nBefore or after he got thirsty?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the substantive issues are always those that Gerry focuses on. By \ndefinition. I can't help but observe that you yourself have made not the \nslightest attempt to show how you see the timing of that event and how \nit proves your theory, except to assert, absurdly, that:\n\n\"When the long-nose man bent over him, he was already suffering thirst, \nso if he died then it happened *after* this time, in which case Babbie \nsaw him alive.\" When the Neighbor bent over Horn and sent Horn to \nNettle, he WAS dying of thirst. Krait then brings him water, so \nobviously he didn't die after that, from thirst. A freshman in English \ncould work this out without even appealing to supernatural intervention.\n\nI am not familiar with the Neighbors' resurrection technologies so I \ncan't say for sure, but the Neighbors' process appears to require some \ntime and involve several steps. He died instantly. He then had \"memories \nof the body\" involving his physical state. He was at that time an \nanimated corpse, which any reader of Pet Sematary knows is not the same \nthing as being alive. Babbie saw him in this state. After that, he \"came \nto himself.\" It could not be clearer.\n\nHis spirit had then returned or was \"returned\" to him, in what condition \nis anybody's guess. But I can state a few things with certainty:\n(1) If the Neighbors snagged his original spirit, they have more pull or \nstronger mojo/juju than I suspected. If they constructed a new one out \nof materials they had at hand, I am less wonderstruck.\n(2) The story follows the Mabinogion's episode of a swap, as James said. \nThe new Horn is in some way at least part Neighbor and all human; it may \ncontain a Neighbor spirit and his memories and a repaired body. The new \nHorn's trailblazing abilities are a consequence of this. In the only way \nthat matters, the old Horn is dead; he's crossed to the other side and \nhas returned with a little of it with him.\n(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the resurrected \nHorn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally he first thought \nof Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well.\n(4) Seawrack thinks Horn is dead because he was dead when she saw him, \nprobably after Babbie did.\n(5) The Neighbors are either unable or not allowed to pick him up and \nmove him out of the pit. It may be that he had to save himself to prove \nhimself worthy of saving, and to do this he had to appeal to Krait. \nFaerie stories work in strange ways." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8941.1060001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:24:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7F59.4050106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:42 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From OBW:\n\"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,...\n\nGerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It happened *after* Horn came to himself and sat up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry, that's not what he wrote. He explicitly says, \"Once, as I lay\nthere at the\nbottom of the pit\". The point in the story is undetermined but it \nis BEFORE\nhe sat up. It straightforwardly the opposite of your reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You’re forgetting the *thirst*. It was when he came to himself and \nsat up\nthat he noticed he was thirsty. When the long-nosed man sent him on his\nastral voyage, he told Nettle he was dying of thirst. So the long-nosed\nman must have come after Horn came to himself and sat up.\nHe lay there both before and after sitting up that time. What else \nwould\nhe do to rest? He could not climb walls or lick dew for days on end. So\n“once as I lay there” tells us nothing. But the thirst tells us the\nsequence of events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry, are you saying a man can't be thirsty twice before he has a \ndrink?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His thrist should refer to internal bleeding. Whether it is before or \nafter the Neighbours start repairing him cannot be deduced from it alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. However, he also lay there for days. If he was physically alive, \nhe was thirsty for that reason." } ] }, { "message_id": "<64847661D06A447C9AFECC3D963D0087@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:31:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8589.9090104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first paragraph relates events AFTER he encountered and discoursed with Krait. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Last night I stopped writing because I could not bring myself to describe the rest of that day, or the night that followed it, or the day that followed that, the day on which I licked dew from the sides of the pit, lying on my belly at first, then kneeling, then standing and at last, when the Short Sun peeped over the rim and the dew was almost gone, wiping the stone above my head with fingers that I thrust into my mouth the moment they felt damp. Altogether I got two mouthfuls of water, at most. No more than that, certainly, and very likely it was less. \nYes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The next event relates to EARLIER only shortly after he had encountered Krait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Earlier I had prayed, then cursed every god in my heart when the rescuer they sent had proved to be Krait. On that day I did not pray, or curse, or any such thing. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "NOW the rhythm of is telling upended. You have been tricked by Wolfe's subtle story-telling\n(you are not the first, we've all been there). The next event takes place even earlier. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That paragraph seems to refer to two separate days: the day he prayed and cursed and encountered Krait, and the next day, when he scraped dew getting only two mouthfuls, and did not pray.\n\nAnd on which, I think, the long-nosed man appeared. [Edit: I wrote “I think”, but read to the end — it is proven.]\n\n This is what I least wished to write about last night, but I am going to try to write it down this evening. *Once*, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man with a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not move or even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He touched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished. \n I was standing in Nettle’s kitchen. She was making soup, and I watched her add a whole plateful of chopped meat to her kettle and shake the fire. She turned and saw me, and we kissed and embraced. I explained to her that I was not really in her kitchen at all, that I lay at the bottom of a pit in a ruin of the Vanished People on an island far away, and that I was dying of thirst. \n “Oh,” Nettle said, “I’ll get you some water.” \n She went to the millstream and brought back a dipper of clean, cool water for me; but I could not drink. “Come with me,” I told her. “I’ll show you where I am, and when you give me your water there I’ll be able to drink it.” I took her hand (yes, Nettle my darling, I took your hard, hardworking little hand in mine) and tried to lead her back to the pit in which I lay. She stared at me then as if I were some horror from the grave, and screamed. I can never forget that scream. \n And I lay in the pit, as before. The Short Sun was burning gold." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This likely places the events with the long-nosed fellow (our narrator) on the night \nbefore THIS happens (at the beginning of the chapter:\n\"Sunlight warmed me. I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does that follow? ?Once? does not designate any particular time. Nor does he say the weather was cloudy on the day after Krait came.\n\nAnd come to think of it, he tells us right there!\n\n**********************************************************\nAnd I lay in the pit, as before. The Short Sun was burning gold.\n\nIt had crossed the pit and vanished on the other side an hour or two before, when the inhumu returned. \n***********************************************************\n\nSo we have an exact timeline. The long-nosed man visited him the day after Krait’s visit, and Krait visited for the second time some hours after his astral trip.\n\nThis confirms what was already clear from the “thirst” clue.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8B51.7080604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:33:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7F93.6070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (21-11-2011 16:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I absolutely see that. But I think we need go where the text is taking\nus. As I said, Horn dying and being resurrected is a mystery that we\nshould discuss. WHETHER he dies and resurrects is pretty straightforward.\nNothing is more undermining of Wolfe criticism than taking one of his\nstories and saying, \"This is such-and-such kind of story.\" Wolfe is about\nsubverting those expectations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I'm all for that discussion. The only thing I'm not for - here as in \nother other place - is positing some idea and then remain satisfied with the \npositing itself, not exploring the consequences." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8B9A.3050202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:34:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7F93.6070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (21-11-2011 16:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I absolutely see that. But I think we need go where the text is taking\nus. As I said, Horn dying and being resurrected is a mystery that we\nshould discuss. WHETHER he dies and resurrects is pretty straightforward.\nNothing is more undermining of Wolfe criticism than taking one of his\nstories and saying, \"This is such-and-such kind of story.\" Wolfe is about\nsubverting those expectations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I'm all for that discussion. The only thing I'm not for - here as in \nother other place - is positing some idea and then remain satisfied with the \npositing itself, not exploring the consequences." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8BF2.80903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1C635C6A20804A5C8E7E25E3F18FB60D@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:17 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAre you asking when Horn died, or when he saw Nettle? That is related\nafter Krait comes, so it could be after Krait comes. It could be \nearlier\ntoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He saw Nettle directly after the \"long-nosed man\" touched something to \nhis forehead.\nIf he has already died and been resurrected as a Neighbour, who is the \nlong-nosed man and what is he up to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This fellow is our Neighbor Narrator.\nI think the easiest version is to say that this is Horn's last memories \nright after he has fallen into the pit...the last seconds before his death.\nThere are other possible other constructions, I'm sure.\n\nWhat isn't very highly mysterious is whether Horn died in that pit. \nAntonio is right, I think, why people have trouble getting there. They \ndon't like the implications. They have this way of viewing the story and \nthey prefer it to what is inexorably implied by Horn dying in a stupid \nmishap a few days out of New Viron. This is the same reason people have \na problem with Pike's ghost being the Rajan. It brings up all sorts of \nunexpected and (for some, unappealing) implications about the narrative. \nAs Alice K. Turner said regarding whether the Rajan Time-travels \n(paraphrasing) \"There is no time travel in the Long Sun/Short Sun. It's \nnot that kind of story.\"\n\nHeck, Horn dies a few days after his adventure starts and (as I suspect) \nSilk is already dead as he is beginning. If one really, really liked the \nstory without those elements, I can see why one would have a problem \nwith exchanging it for either of these. But think of he alternate \nnarrative: The main character falls in a pit, his companions look over \nhim and say \"That boy's dead\" and leave, and then the fellow wakes and \nreturns to his companions. His companions say \"But...but...you were \ndead!\" He responds, \"No I wasn't\". And so everyone just moves a long. NO \nONE would write that story (other than say a seven-year-old). Certainly \nnot Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8D30.8030403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:41:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA88FB.5040404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the \nresurrected Horn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally he \nfirst thought of Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he goes to Nettle in her dreams. Otherwise, why is she not \nsurprised to see him there?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8DA9.3020503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:43:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7F99.5080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:43 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence -\nthat either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first \nmakes the\nwhole story a sham (not so much for us as for the characters), the \nsecond\nintroduces an element that not only seems to be otherwise absent from\nLS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular with no justification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK. What justification is needed for a character on a great, impossible\nquest to die and be resurrected before he achieves his goal?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The one that explains why it isn't done to every such character in \nHistory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. Yes, that's a good question ... IF you assume that whoever holds \nthat power can do it for everyone. I have not seen such a theory stated \nhere, and I assume that we are not actually speaking of God so I don't \nexpect to see one.\n\nThe simple answer is the Sun Cycle does not exist in an intertextual \nvacuum. As in any tale of a quest, forces who possess a limited ability \nto resurrect humans have an interest in keeping the hero alive. So they \ndo, albeit at great cost to themselves. In this case, they had to give \nup a Neighbor. So you know they wanted Silk pretty bad.\n\nWhy this might be the case is a far larger question than I will take up \nhere. Plainly we don't need to answer the \"why\" before we answer the \n\"how\" because we already know it happened.\n\nTo put it another way, as I implied, a hero on a great impossible \nmission needs no further justification whatsoever to be resurrected if \nhe dies. It is the death and resurrection that are the point of the \nstory, not the achievement of the quest." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8DDA.2000806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:43:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7FAF.5000107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:43 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 16:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your\ntactics for what they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just a reminder that your own tactics are on full view as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would they be?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8EA2.3010306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:47:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8589.9090104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nNOW the rhythm of is telling upended. You have been tricked by Wolfe's \nsubtle story-telling (you are not the first, we've all been there). \nThe next event takes place even earlier. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Unprovable, but likely. I don't think it matters to the \nargument anyway, since the point where it's related is the latest point \nwhere it could have happened. Either way, he's back from the totally \ndead and is very thirsty for various reasons." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321897663.85470.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8DA9.3020503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the long nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie. I need to look at short stiff hair on hands throughout the text. \n\nIf he then becomes the narrator, then perhaps the conflation of Babbie and Horn begins there. Later Babbie's reanimating soul can return to its original owner + the majority of Horn (huh). But whose sould would Babbie have to begin with? \n\nHuh. Huh. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8F1C.1020304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:49:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1C635C6A20804A5C8E7E25E3F18FB60D@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*> *On 11/21/2011 11:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When he came to himself and sat up (after a period in which he was \nnot\nreally conscious at all — his spirit wasn’t present, as he puts it),\nhe was “terribly thirsty”. [Also cold and full of pain, which he\nmentions first.]\nSome days went by, in which (as he tells us) he desperately tried to\nscrape droplets of dew from the walls.\nWhen the long-nosed man came and sent him on his astral jaunt, he \ntold\nNettle that he was “dying of thirst”. Not that he was “terribly \nthirsty”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you asking when Horn died, or when he saw Nettle? That is related\nafter Krait comes, so it could be after Krait comes. It could be \nearlier\ntoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He saw Nettle directly after the “long-nosed man” touched something to \nhis forehead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not an answer to the question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he has already died and been resurrected as a Neighbour, who is the \nlong-nosed man and what is he up to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearly he is not resurrecting him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And what's the difference between \"dying\" and \"terribly\"? I guess he\ndidn't tell Nettle he was cold, so he must have been nice and toasty\nwarm at that point. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wasn’t dying of cold. He was dying of thirst." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a question there you decided not to answer." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:50:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7F93.6070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "WHETHER he dies and resurrects is pretty \nstraightforward. Nothing is more undermining of Wolfe criticism than \ntaking one of his stories and saying, \"This is such-and-such kind of \nstory.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These two sentences do not hang well together.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8FB9.3070104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:51:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<64847661D06A447C9AFECC3D963D0087@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:31 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo we have an exact timeline. The long-nosed man visited him the day \nafter Krait’s visit, and Krait visited for the second time some hours \nafter his astral trip.\nThis confirms what was already clear from the “thirst” clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the Neighbor and why. \nBut not without establishing that Horn has died. We simply are not going \nto agree about the meaning of any portion of this scenario or most of \nthe rest of the novel without agreement on that. Further discussion is \npointless.\n\nI think I understand why people have a problem getting over this hurdle, \nbut I can't pretend anymore that I respect their Short Sun theories \nwhich essentially reflect that they have failed to do so. I respect the \ncriticism of many Listers who hold that view, but I don't think their \ninterpretations are going to help me more fully understand what is going \non in this novel. I think there is little point in discussing Short Sun \nwithout agreement on this point. It is THE pivotal event as the narrator \nstates, and their interpretations fail to appreciate that fact. In a \nvery real sense, the novel ends at chapter 8." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA8FD1.9020900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:52:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8D30.8030403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:41 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/21/2011 11:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the \nresurrected Horn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally he \nfirst thought of Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he goes to Nettle in her dreams. Otherwise, why is she not \nsurprised to see him there?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly, although she does scream. What kind of \"travel\" is that, then?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321897663.85470.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the long nosed spider fellow\nis some manifestation of Babbie. I need to look at short stiff hair on hands throughout the text. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe they are characteristic of a large group of species on Blue, just as mammals have certain characteristics in common on Earth?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA9093.4020107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321897663.85470.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:47 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThose short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the long nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie. I need to look at short stiff hair on hands throughout the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I considered that as well, thinking that we have no idea what Babbie \nreally is or _will_ be, or how Neighbors are animals too. If a greenbuck \ncan be a Neighbor, so can a hus. But maybe greenbucks have the same \nshort stiff hairs. The problem becomes ... how is it that Babbie is \nstill around?\n\nMultiple limbs, multiple personalities, multiple bodies ... ?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321898209.93107.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8FB9.3070104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 9:51 AM\nOn 11/21/2011 11:31 AM, Gerry Quinn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So we have an exact timeline. The long-nosed man\nvisited him the day after Krait’s visit, and Krait visited\nfor the second time some hours after his astral trip.\nThis confirms what was already clear from the\n“thirst” clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the\nNeighbor and why. But not without establishing that Horn has\ndied. We simply are not going to agree about the meaning of\nany portion of this scenario or most of the rest of the\nnovel without agreement on that. Further discussion is\npointless.\n\nI think I understand why people have a problem getting over\nthis hurdle, but I can't pretend anymore that I respect\ntheir Short Sun theories which essentially reflect that they\nhave failed to do so. I respect the criticism of many\nListers who hold that view, but I don't think their\ninterpretations are going to help me more fully understand\nwhat is going on in this novel. I think there is little\npoint in discussing Short Sun without agreement on this\npoint. It is THE pivotal event as the narrator states, and\ntheir interpretations fail to appreciate that fact. In a\nvery real sense, the novel ends at chapter 8." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's when he says goodbye at the end of OBW, but chapter 8 is the second most pivotal event for me. :) (Both are final, somehow. Whether it be Babbie who reanimates Horn with his extra soul, or the neighbor tree the island might be composed of, or the greenbuck, something reanimates him)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA90EC.2010609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:57:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8FB9.3070104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:51 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI think I understand why people have a problem getting over this \nhurdle, but I can't pretend anymore that I respect their Short Sun \ntheories which essentially reflect that they have failed to do so. I \nrespect the criticism of many Listers who hold that view, but I don't \nthink their interpretations are going to help me more fully understand \nwhat is going on in this novel. I think there is little point in \ndiscussing Short Sun without agreement on this point. It is THE \npivotal event as the narrator states, and their interpretations fail \nto appreciate that fact. In a very real sense, the novel ends at \nchapter 8." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The QUEST ends there. HORN ends there. The novel, thank Wolfe, continues \n...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321898260.70903.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA9093.4020107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maybe he's got a spare soul laying around in there? Most confusing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 9:55 AM\nOn 11/21/2011 12:47 PM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the\nlong nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie. I\nneed to look at short stiff hair on hands throughout the\ntext." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I considered that as well, thinking that we have no idea\nwhat Babbie really is or _will_ be, or how Neighbors are\nanimals too. If a greenbuck can be a Neighbor, so can a hus.\nBut maybe greenbucks have the same short stiff hairs. The\nproblem becomes ... how is it that Babbie is still around?\n\nMultiple limbs, multiple personalities, multiple bodies ...\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8F1C.1020304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And what's the difference between \"dying\" and \"terribly\"? I guess he\ndidn't tell Nettle he was cold, so he must have been nice and toasty\nwarm at that point. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He wasn’t dying of cold. He was dying of thirst." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was a question there you decided not to answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t really know what. He told her the most salient facts regarding his condition, i.e. that he was stuck in a pit *literally* dying of thirst.\nWhen he awoke, the Sun was overhead, so perhaps he was toasty warm for that matter.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA914C.2070102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA9093.4020107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 17:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:47 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the long nosed spider\nfellow is some manifestation of Babbie. I need to look at short stiff hair\non hands throughout the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I considered that as well, thinking that we have no idea what Babbie really\nis or _will_ be, or how Neighbors are animals too. If a greenbuck can be a\nNeighbor, so can a hus. But maybe greenbucks have the same short stiff\nhairs. The problem becomes ... how is it that Babbie is still around?\n\nMultiple limbs, multiple personalities, multiple bodies ... ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And who is Wyndcloude?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA916F.50506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T17:59:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8FD1.9020900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the \nresurrected Horn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally \nhe first thought of Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think he goes to Nettle in her dreams. Otherwise, why is she not \nsurprised to see him there?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly, although she does scream. What kind of \"travel\" is that, then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, after she gets a look at him. It was not the Horn *she* remembered, \nI think.\nThe same kind of travel Fava engages in after she died." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321898456.78742.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321898260.70903.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry just cleared it up! The sun overhead, of course, is the New Sun. Sev did it. (that's a joke, of course ... mostly a joke [mechanically if not actually])" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321898542.78005.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:02:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA914C.2070102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 9:58 AM\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011\n17:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:47 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe\nthe long nosed spider\nfellow is some manifestation of Babbie. I need to\nlook at short stiff hair\non hands throughout the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I considered that as well, thinking that we have no\nidea what Babbie really\nis or _will_ be, or how Neighbors are animals too. If\na greenbuck can be a\nNeighbor, so can a hus. But maybe greenbucks have the\nsame short stiff\nhairs. The problem becomes ... how is it that Babbie\nis still around?\n\nMultiple limbs, multiple personalities, multiple\nbodies ... ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who is Wyndcloude?\\" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes yes yes! The wind in the chimney! I have been looking for an explanation for that for years! wind and double darkness haunt the skies, etc. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA94A3.1010001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:12:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA916F.50506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:59 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the \nresurrected Horn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally \nhe first thought of Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think he goes to Nettle in her dreams. Otherwise, why is she not \nsurprised to see him there?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly, although she does scream. What kind of \"travel\" is that, then?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, after she gets a look at him. It was not the Horn *she* \nremembered, I think.\nThe same kind of travel Fava engages in after she died.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:13:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8FB9.3070104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:31 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo we have an exact timeline. The long-nosed man visited him the day \nafter Krait’s visit, and Krait visited for the second time some hours \nafter his astral trip.\nThis confirms what was already clear from the “thirst” clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the Neighbor and why. \nBut not without establishing that Horn has died. We simply are not going \nto agree about the meaning of any portion of this scenario or most of \nthe rest of the novel without agreement on that. Further discussion is \npointless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the long-nosed man, because as I said — and you seem to be tacitly conceding — a ?late? appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the hypothesis [and I’m sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do not share] that Horn died and was replaced by him.\nHe’s a big problem for the “Horn died in the pit” theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I understand why people have a problem getting over this hurdle, \nbut I can't pretend anymore that I respect their Short Sun theories \nwhich essentially reflect that they have failed to do so. I respect the \ncriticism of many Listers who hold that view, but I don't think their \ninterpretations are going to help me more fully understand what is going \non in this novel. I think there is little point in discussing Short Sun \nwithout agreement on this point. It is THE pivotal event as the narrator \nstates, and their interpretations fail to appreciate that fact. In a \nvery real sense, the novel ends at chapter 8." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And nothing will shake your belief in your theory, even being shown how events clearly described in the narrative contradict it. \n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA957A.10302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:57 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nAnd what's the difference between \"dying\" and \"terribly\"? I guess he\ndidn't tell Nettle he was cold, so he must have been nice and toasty\nwarm at that point. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He wasn’t dying of cold. He was dying of thirst." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There was a question there you decided not to answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t really know what. He told her the most salient facts regarding \nhis condition, i.e. that he was stuck in a pit *literally* dying of \nthirst.\nWhen he awoke, the Sun was overhead, so perhaps he was toasty warm for \nthat matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I get it now. Horn didn't tell Nettle he was a Neighbor, so ... he wasn't!\n\nI also failed to fully answer a question. I think the Neighbor was \nseeing what the new Horn would do when granted astral/dream travel. He \nwent to Nettle rather than to his favorite tree. Resurrection (or \ntransubstantiation) complete." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA95AD.9030004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:17:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA916F.50506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:59 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(3) Horn's trip to Nettle was a test (drive) of sorts of the \nresurrected Horn. If he was to find help, he failed, but naturally \nhe first thought of Nettle. It shows he now has that power as well. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think he goes to Nettle in her dreams. Otherwise, why is she not \nsurprised to see him there?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly, although she does scream. What kind of \"travel\" is that, then?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, after she gets a look at him. It was not the Horn *she* \nremembered, I think.\nThe same kind of travel Fava engages in after she died." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forget---does Nettle later relate being haunted by Horn? I know they \ngot the manuscript eventually." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA9672.8010403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:20:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn \nOn 11/21/2011 11:31 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So we have an exact timeline. The long-nosed man visited him the day\nafter Krait’s visit, and Krait visited for the second time some hours\nafter his astral trip.\nThis confirms what was already clear from the “thirst” clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the Neighbor and why.\nBut not without establishing that Horn has died. We simply are not \ngoing\nto agree about the meaning of any portion of this scenario or most of\nthe rest of the novel without agreement on that. Further discussion is\npointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the long-nosed \nman, because as I said — and you seem to be tacitly conceding — a \n“late” appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the \nhypothesis [and I’m sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do not \nshare] that Horn died and was replaced by him.\nHe’s a big problem for the “Horn died in the pit” theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In some mysterious way you refuse to reveal so that no one can prove you \nwrong.\n\nHow do you know which Neighbor it was? Why do you assume the Neighbor \nwho resurrected him is no longer also still a non-Horn Neighbor?\n\nDo you know more about resurrection than you let on?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA9B8D.8060001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWell, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the long-nosed \nman, because as I said -- and you seem to be tacitly conceding -- a \n'late' appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the hypothesis" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I made no such concession. I said I *prefer* an earlier appearance. I \nstill do. I have no problem presenting a theory to tie the events \ntogether and allow people to shoot at it. Even for people who are better \nat shooting than presenting. I don't have *explain* him. He's a \nNeighbor. I believe him to be OUR Neighbor. Marc, thinks differently for \nhis own reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[and I'm sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do not share] \nthat Horn died and was replaced by him. [The long nosed fellow is] a \nbig problem for the 'Horn died in the pit' theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the long-nosed fellow's appearance is only significant in a \ntime-line, mechanism discussion.\nIf someone is using it to construct a theory that Horn didn't die, \nthat's equivalent to constructing theories to show that Hy was never \nreally a prostitute or that Blood was not Pike's son. You've gone off \nthe rails in that case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And nothing will shake your belief in your theory, even being shown \nhow events clearly described in the narrative contradict it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem with someone not being very good at reading Wolfe is that \nthey are always declaring how \"events clearly described in the \nnarrative\" prove this or that, when in fact they don't prove anything \nand don't describe what they think they do. They've misinterpreted \neverything. No doubt you will shout \"tu quoque!\" Fine. But with you I \ninevitably find myself feeling like Psyche trying to prove to Orual that \nApollo's palace is all around her. In fact, I half-way suspect that if \nwe were discussing the novel \"Til We Have Faces\" you would be asserting \nthat Psyche was mad. Not only do I not value your approach to Wolfe, I \ndon't even understand why anyone would enjoy reading him with that approach/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42C404B1F6864871AFFEB69EF3266163@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:42:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA9672.8010403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* James Wynn mailto:crushtv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the Neighbor and why.\nBut not without establishing that Horn has died. We simply are not \ngoing\nto agree about the meaning of any portion of this scenario or most of\nthe rest of the novel without agreement on that. Further discussion is\npointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the long-nosed \nman, because as I said — and you seem to be tacitly conceding — a \n“late” appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the \nhypothesis [and I’m sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do not \nshare] that Horn died and was replaced by him.\nHe’s a big problem for the “Horn died in the pit” theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In some mysterious way you refuse to reveal so that no one can prove you \nwrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He *is* an obvious problem. James previously argued that he was a Neighbour who replaced Horn, and that fits okay with his theory. But if it can’t be that Neighbour, it must be someone else, and the question is who? If it was another Neighbour, why did he leave him stuck in the pit to die again? Why didn’t he say anything?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How do you know which Neighbor it was? Why do you assume the Neighbor \nwho resurrected him is no longer also still a non-Horn Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think James is proposing that a Neighbour’s spirit went into him, presumably rendering that particular Neighbour hors de combat.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA9CFD.1080906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:48:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<42C404B1F6864871AFFEB69EF3266163@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 12:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI think James is proposing that a Neighbour's spirit went into him, \npresumably rendering that particular Neighbour hors de combat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What an absurd presumption. I would never make it. Certainly, not \nconsidering Horn is going to soon meet a Neighbor who claims his name is \nalso \"Horn\". There is no reason that the Neighbor who repairs Horn's \nbody would not be seen by his body and recorded to memory. I don't \nprefer that scenario, but it is possible.\n\nEven regarding other people's theories on Wolfe's stories, you are bound \nby self-imposed walls of what is possible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECA9E68.5060303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T18:54:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<42C404B1F6864871AFFEB69EF3266163@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/21/2011 1:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* James Wynn mailto:crushtv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Look, Gerry, I'm willing to debate when he sees the Neighbor and \nwhy.\nBut not without establishing that Horn has died. We simply are not\ngoing\nto agree about the meaning of any portion of this scenario or \nmost of\nthe rest of the novel without agreement on that. Further \ndiscussion is\npointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the \nlong-nosed\nman, because as I said — and you seem to be tacitly conceding — a\n“late” appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the\nhypothesis [and I’m sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do \nnot\nshare] that Horn died and was replaced by him.\nHe’s a big problem for the “Horn died in the pit” theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In some mysterious way you refuse to reveal so that no one can prove \nyou\nwrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He *is* an obvious problem. James previously argued that he was a \nNeighbour who replaced Horn, and that fits okay with his theory. But \nif it can’t be that Neighbour, it must be someone else, and the \nquestion is who? If it was another Neighbour, why did he leave him \nstuck in the pit to die again? Why didn’t he say anything?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why are those problems? Did you read anything I proposed on those topics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How do you know which Neighbor it was? Why do you assume the Neighbor\nwho resurrected him is no longer also still a non-Horn Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think James is proposing that a Neighbour’s spirit went into him, \npresumably rendering that particular Neighbour hors de combat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably, yes. Based on .... ?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:04:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA9B8D.8060001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/21/2011 12:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: \n Well, then it is up to you to present an explanation of the long-nosed man, because as I said — and you seem to be tacitly conceding — a ?late? appearance by him is not easily made compatible with the hypothesis\n\n I made no such concession. I said I *prefer* an earlier appearance. I still do. I have no problem presenting a theory to tie the events together and allow people to shoot at it. Even for people who are better at shooting than presenting. I don't have *explain* him. He's a Neighbor. I believe him to be OUR Neighbor. Marc, thinks differently for his own reasons.\nI’ve presented my theory of events in the pit. Shoot away, if you can. If by “OUR Neighbour” you mean that he replaced Horn, it seems you must conclude that he replaced a Horn who was alive and healthy, albeit in a bad situation, because surely Horn was substantially recovered from his fall — however he recovered — by the time Krait came.\n\nThis need be nothing to do with me. If you want to make your theory work, you need to answer this even if you think my idea that the narrator who didn’t die and didn’t say he died didn’t actually die is too crazy to be considered.\n\n [and I’m sorry, but it *IS* only a hypothesis, one I do not share] that Horn died and was replaced by him. [The long nosed fellow is] a big problem for the “Horn died in the pit” theory.\n\n Actually, the long-nosed fellow's appearance is only significant in a time-line, \n mechanism discussion. \nRight... so it’s irrelevant to discussions where we make up theories we like and ignore where they contradict the narrative. I get you. Silly me, always reading the text and trying to interpret what happens. I’ll never understand Wolfe that way.\n\n If someone is using it to construct a theory that Horn didn't die, that's \n equivalent to constructing theories to show that Hy was never really a \n prostitute or that Blood was not Pike's son. You've gone off the rails in that case.\n\nActually I’m using it to shoot down a theory in which Horn did die. But it does work fine with my theory of what happened in the pit which I posted earlier. It’s not very dependent on when the long-nosed man appeared.\n\n And nothing will shake your belief in your theory, even being shown how events clearly described in the narrative contradict it. \n\n The problem with someone not being very good at reading Wolfe is that they are always declaring how \"events clearly described in the narrative\" prove this or that, when in fact they don't prove anything and don't describe what they think they do. They've misinterpreted everything. No doubt you will shout \"tu quoque!\" Fine. But with you I inevitably find myself feeling like Psyche trying to prove to Orual that Apollo's palace is all around her. In fact, I half-way suspect that if we were discussing the novel \"Til We Have Faces\" you would be asserting that Psyche was mad. Not only do I not value your approach to Wolfe, I don't even understand why anyone would enjoy reading him with that approach/\nI haven’t read that novel so I can’t comment on your analogy. But I do dispute your contention that your ability to read Wolfe is superior to mine.\n\nYour ability to make up often rather strange theories which can find little or no justification in the text is unquestionable, though.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0AED201855A64ABFA4803E59B93B7C40@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:12:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA9E68.5060303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He *is* an obvious problem. James previously argued that he was a \nNeighbour who replaced Horn, and that fits okay with his theory. But \nif it can’t be that Neighbour, it must be someone else, and the \nquestion is who? If it was another Neighbour, why did he leave him \nstuck in the pit to die again? Why didn’t he say anything?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are those problems? Did you read anything I proposed on those topics?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I saw nothing but gnomic questions and inane sarcasm. They are problems unless the “rescue Horn” mission proposed by James is scripted by the Marx Bothers. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How do you know which Neighbor it was? Why do you assume the Neighbor\nwho resurrected him is no longer also still a non-Horn Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think James is proposing that a Neighbour’s spirit went into him, \npresumably rendering that particular Neighbour hors de combat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably, yes. Based on .... ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One body per soul, that kind of thing. Sure, you can argue around it, and say the Neighbour made a copy of himself and injected it into Horn as a new soul. And then left him in the pit with no water. Why not? Those crazy, crazy Neighbours. They’ll do anything for a lark.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAA2EF.4010907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:13:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIf by “OUR Neighbour” you mean that he replaced Horn, it seems you \nmust conclude that he replaced a Horn who was alive and healthy, \nalbeit in a bad situation, because surely Horn was substantially \nrecovered from his fall — however he recovered — by the time Krait came." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. It happened after Krait went away and before he came back. I don't \nthink so. I'm pretty certain that is a faulty reading. But fine.\nAND before that Horn died in the pit and was resurrected." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAA35E.4020408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:15:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<0AED201855A64ABFA4803E59B93B7C40@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOne body per soul, that kind of thing. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How could anyone assert that as a rule in the Long Sun/Short Sun?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:20:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAA35E.4020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the\nlong nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If a greenbuck can be a Neighbor, so can a hus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, goats, pigs and deer all have short stiff hairs, hooves\n(hides and sinew) and horns (if you count tusks). I see little problem\nin Wolfe spreading his fauns across a range of ungulates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But whose soul would Babbie have to begin with?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPhea's? The soldier named Babirousa's?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem becomes ... how is it that Babbie is still around?\n..maybe he's got a spare soul laying around in there? Most confusing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell yes, and no. Normally we think of a person's soul as individual and\nindivisible. But that is not the case in this story. They are like a deck\nof cards, able to be shuffled and dealt out in different combinations and\nportions. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAA5EB.7010504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA8B9A.3050202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote\nI absolutely see that. But I think we need go where the text is taking\nus. As I said, Horn dying and being resurrected is a mystery that we\nshould discuss. WHETHER he dies and resurrects is pretty \nstraightforward.\nNothing is more undermining of Wolfe criticism than taking one of his\nstories and saying, \"This is such-and-such kind of story.\" Wolfe is \nabout\nsubverting those expectations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nOh, I'm all for that discussion. The only thing I'm not for - here as \nin other other place - is positing some idea and then remain satisfied \nwith the positing itself, not exploring the consequences. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I absolutely agree. But unpleasant thematic or narrative consequences is \nnot a reason to reject the obvious direction the story has taken. I miss \na lot of cues the first time when reading Wolfe. I didn't miss this one \nthough. It's just not subtle.\n\nAnd I disagree that it harms the storm at all. It is classic Wolfean to \nhave a narrator is that is fundamentally different --in nature or \nidentity-- than the one superficially presented: 1) Dr. Marsch's diary, \n2) dead Weer, 3) Latro (who cannot verify the veracity of anything in \nhis own diary), 4) Severian who has been multiple people throughout his \nlife, 5) the translator of the Book of the New Sun, 5) Able who cannot \nremember the years he spent in Aelfrice, 6) the narrator of Seven \nAmerican Nights...\nThe Book of the Short Sun is the essential Wolfe novel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A2BE05474084EA2B79A4EA8E063CF8E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAA2EF.4010907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If by “OUR Neighbour” you mean that he replaced Horn, it seems you \nmust conclude that he replaced a Horn who was alive and healthy, \nalbeit in a bad situation, because surely Horn was substantially \nrecovered from his fall — however he recovered — by the time Krait came." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. It happened after Krait went away and before he came back. I don't \nthink so. I'm pretty certain that is a faulty reading. But fine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "***************************\nShe stared at me then as if I were some horror from the grave, and screamed. I can never forget that scream.\n\nAnd I lay in the pit, as before. The Short Sun was burning gold.\n\nIt had crossed the pit and vanished on the other side an hour or two before, when the inhumu returned.\n***************************\n\nGood luck finding a better reading. It looks pretty watertight to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "AND before that Horn died in the pit and was resurrected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your theory would seem to demand that. So who is long-nose and what is his purpose? \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:31:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAA35E.4020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 1:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One body per soul, that kind of thing. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How could anyone assert that as a rule in the Long Sun/Short Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a default assumption, given the general run of things. You can certainly posit otherwise. This young, guilt-ridden Neighbour of yours starts to look like a joyrider, though.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAA721.6030800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:31:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the\nlong nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie.\nIf a greenbuck can be a Neighbor, so can a hus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a very real sense, all creatures of Faerie are faeries. In An Evil \nGuest, there are bizarre animals in Woldercon (analogous to Faerie) who \nare descendents of the Wolderconese. I believe that all the animals Dr \nMarsch encounters in the outback of St. Anne were formed from the same \nsource material as the Annese/abos. The cat is an abo." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAA77B.6050300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nActually I’m using it to shoot down a theory in which Horn did die. \nBut it does work fine with my theory of what happened in the pit which \nI posted earlier. It’s not very dependent on when the long-nosed man \nappeared." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. It doesn't appear to depend on anything. As far as I can \ntell---you haven't actually posted it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAAAE2.6060309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<0AED201855A64ABFA4803E59B93B7C40@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/21/2011 1:42 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He *is* an obvious problem. James previously argued that he was a\nNeighbour who replaced Horn, and that fits okay with his theory. But\nif it can’t be that Neighbour, it must be someone else, and the\nquestion is who? If it was another Neighbour, why did he leave him\nstuck in the pit to die again? Why didn’t he say anything?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why are those problems? Did you read anything I proposed on those \ntopics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I saw nothing but gnomic questions and inane sarcasm. They are \nproblems unless the “rescue Horn” mission proposed by James is \nscripted by the Marx Bothers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may explain why you're so hostile---you read looking for sarcasm.\n\nAnd btw James did not propose a \"rescue mission.\" To even say that says \nmore about you than you realize.\n\nYou still haven't explained why they are problems. You may also not \nrealize this, but to propose a theory you need to actually state your \nposition on a few basic things. I see why you haven't, because then your \nassumptions would be vulnerable.\n\nSee, I still don't know why you think those are problems for James's \n(and my, and Marc's) theory. You dodged it again, this time pleading \nincomprehension.\n\nWhy are they problems?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How do you know which Neighbor it was? Why do you assume the \nNeighbor\nwho resurrected him is no longer also still a non-Horn Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think James is proposing that a Neighbour’s spirit went into him,\npresumably rendering that particular Neighbour hors de combat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably, yes. Based on .... ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One body per soul, that kind of thing. Sure, you can argue around it, \nand say the Neighbour made a copy of himself and injected it into Horn \nas a new soul. And then left him in the pit with no water. Why not? \nThose crazy, crazy Neighbours. They’ll do anything for a lark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For example, your \"theory\" assumes that \"Neighbors are exactly like \nhumans.\" Good luck defending that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAABF3.5030500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:52:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<3A2BE05474084EA2B79A4EA8E063CF8E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn \nOn 11/21/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If by “OUR Neighbour” you mean that he replaced Horn, it seems you\nmust conclude that he replaced a Horn who was alive and healthy,\nalbeit in a bad situation, because surely Horn was substantially\nrecovered from his fall — however he recovered — by the time Krait \ncame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. It happened after Krait went away and before he came back. I \ndon't\nthink so. I'm pretty certain that is a faulty reading. But fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "***************************\nShe stared at me then as if I were some horror from the grave, and \nscreamed. I can never forget that scream.\nAnd I lay in the pit, as before. The Short Sun was burning gold.\nIt had crossed the pit and vanished on the other side an hour or two \nbefore, when the inhumu returned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This means the sun had set 2 hours before Krait returned. When it was \nburning gold, it was dawn---any dawn. Wolfe jumps around, you see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "***************************\nGood luck finding a better reading. It looks pretty watertight to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "AND before that Horn died in the pit and was resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your theory would seem to demand that. So who is long-nose and what is \nhis purpose?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A Neighbor who seeks to give some part of himself to return Horn to his \nquest." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0230C293FD1A4D878E636E80061C04CB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:53:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAA77B.6050300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nActually I’m using it to shoot down a theory in which Horn did die. \nBut it does work fine with my theory of what happened in the pit which \nI posted earlier. It’s not very dependent on when the long-nosed man \nappeared." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. It doesn't appear to depend on anything. As far as I can \ntell---you haven't actually posted it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I posted it today in a reply to James. I think I had it in a couple of posts. Here it is again anyway:\n\nHorn fell in and was badly concussed. [As with Auk before him, this was the prelude to a mystical evolution, but that’s not germane to the episode, it’s just a trope that Wolfe recycles.] The Neighbours did their best to help him but they live in another dimension and can’t move anything physical or bring him water. What they did was touch his forehead with a mental amplifier that temporarily gave him the ability to astrally travel and get help. Unfortunately he went to Nettle who could not help him and indeed became frightened, thinking I suppose that he was a ghost or inhumu. \n\nThe only other human or quasi-human entity on the island at that time was Seawrack (Krait may have been hanging around already, but even if the Neighbours knew that, they wouldn’t have expected him to help). It is possible that they didn’t recognise Seawrack as human. It’s also possible that they tried to communicate with her but she fled. We know she is terrified of Neighbour constructions at least — it’s probable that she is even more terrified of Neighbours. \n\nIt was this abandonment of Horn due to her fear that she is rationalising. Of course the simple scenario that she is ignorant of human life and ordinary death — everyone she has met has quickly died and stayed dead — is also perfectly possible.\n\nIt was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated Horn’s subsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We already see that he has changed when he is going with Krait to find Seawrack — he sees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a consciousness of detail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the change is the sort of thing we might particularly expect to associate with a Neighbour psyche — affinity with trees, consciousness of other dimensions, feeling he’s missing limbs, whatever. \nHe doesn’t develop superpowers just like that, it requires other events and experiences — his experiences on Green, his death, his experiments on inhumi which he is *contemplating carrying out in the future* during his time as Rajan of Gaon.\n\nAnyway, that’s my working theory for the moment. I think it fits the facts and involves the swallowing of fewer camels than scenarios in which Horn died in the pit.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAACAF.1030309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:55:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAA721.6030800@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:31 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Those short stiff hairs got me thinking that maybe the\nlong nosed spider fellow is some manifestation of Babbie.\nIf a greenbuck can be a Neighbor, so can a hus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a very real sense, all creatures of Faerie are faeries. In An Evil \nGuest, there are bizarre animals in Woldercon (analogous to Faerie) \nwho are descendents of the Wolderconese. I believe that all the \nanimals Dr Marsch encounters in the outback of St. Anne were formed \nfrom the same source material as the Annese/abos. The cat is an abo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Resurrection is surely not a power to be handed out equally \namong them, but who knows.\n\nMaybe Babbie sees him alive (yes, he told Seawrack he was dead but he \ndidn't say he stayed dead) and, knowing him better than the Neighbor \nHorn, sends him to Nettle. Babbie is after all about as guilty as the \ngreenbuck in getting Horn into the pit." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:00:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAACAF.1030309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: In a very real sense, all creatures of Faerie are faeries. \nIn An Evil Guest, there are bizarre animals in Woldercon (analogous to Faerie) \nwho are descendents of the Wolderconese. I believe that all the animals Dr \nMarsch encounters in the outback of St. Anne were formed from the same \nsource material as the Annese/abos. The cat is an abo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, James. And the original source of them were the dark things curled around\nthe root of plants or whatever it was. A clear thematic connection to inhumi and\nNeigbors, vines and trees." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all creatures of Faerie are faeries" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, as all versions of Tzadkiel are Tzadkiel, all Shadow Children and all\nNeighbors are, in some sense, as one. Divided yet united (in a way humans\nare not). Heh. We humans share 99.9% of our DNA with each other but not our\nsouls. We remain islands of individuality, unable to communicate with each\nother on such simple issues as a work of SF/Fantasy ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Perhaps, although Nettle is not a Neighbor. But that could be considered \nan evolutionary step up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a good point to consider. Though not as good at it as Neighbors, perhaps humans have\na limited ability to share their soul with each other? If so, Horn and Nettle have surely\ndone so, if anyone has. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAB1C3.6020200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:17:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<0230C293FD1A4D878E636E80061C04CB@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\nOn 11/21/2011 2:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually I’m using it to shoot down a theory in which Horn did die.\nBut it does work fine with my theory of what happened in the pit \nwhich\nI posted earlier. It’s not very dependent on when the long-nosed man\nappeared." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct. It doesn't appear to depend on anything. As far as I can\ntell---you haven't actually posted it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I posted it today in a reply to James. I think I had it in a couple of \nposts. Here it is again anyway:\nHorn fell in and was badly concussed. [As with Auk before him, this \nwas the prelude to a mystical evolution, but that’s not germane to the \nepisode, it’s just a trope that Wolfe recycles.] The Neighbours did \ntheir best to help him but they live in another dimension and can’t \nmove anything physical or bring him water." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how you know this but I agree. Typical Faerie behavior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What they did was touch his forehead with a mental amplifier that \ntemporarily gave him the ability to astrally travel and get help. \nUnfortunately he went to Nettle who could not help him and indeed \nbecame frightened, thinking I suppose that he was a ghost or inhumu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. I said much the same thing (you called it \"inane sarcasm\") and \nsuggested that it was a test of sorts, whether of Horn or of his \"recovery.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only other human or quasi-human entity on the island at that time \nwas Seawrack (Krait may have been hanging around already, but even if \nthe Neighbours knew that, they wouldn’t have expected him to help)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think the Neighbors do not know the inhumi?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is possible that they didn’t recognise Seawrack as human. It’s also \npossible that they tried to communicate with her but she fled. We know \nshe is terrified of Neighbour constructions at least — it’s probable \nthat she is even more terrified of Neighbours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would either Krait or Seawrack have anything to do with it? Why \nwouldn't she have told Horn if they appeared to her?\n\nWhat is their motivation in helping Horn if they are not willing to \nappear to his friends like Lassie barking that Tommy is down the well? \nAre they moral people at all, even to the extent of helping themselves?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was this abandonment of Horn due to her fear that she is \nrationalising. Of course the simple scenario that she is ignorant of \nhuman life and ordinary death — everyone she has met has quickly died \nand stayed dead — is also perfectly possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easily disproved, but to you, possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated Horn’s \nsubsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We already see \nthat he has changed when he is going with Krait to find Seawrack — he \nsees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a consciousness of \ndetail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the change is the sort of \nthing we might particularly expect to associate with a Neighbour \npsyche — affinity with trees, consciousness of other dimensions, \nfeeling he’s missing limbs, whatever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And your evidence for this expectation of \"whatever\" is where? Give page \nnumbers.\n\nWhere did he get his trailblazing ability from---is that not to be \nexpected from association with \"a Neighbour psyche\"? What do you think \nthat \"sharpness\" is?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He doesn’t develop superpowers just like that, it requires other \nevents and experiences — his experiences on Green, his death, his \nexperiments on inhumi which he is *contemplating carrying out in the \nfuture* during his time as Rajan of Gaon.\nAnyway, that’s my working theory for the moment. I think it fits the \nfacts and involves the swallowing of fewer camels than scenarios in \nwhich Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, but you failed to outline in detail how the timing of events in \nthe pit helps your case, just as you have failed to detail why it hurts \nours.\n\nIt seems to me that what you do is find the easiest path to the lowest \nplace and amaze yourself at how easy it is to defend it. You are Wolfe's \nideal foolish reader---you fall for every single one of his plausible \nsurface explanations, which are ALWAYS provided. It's as though he makes \na place where one can stand and see nothing going on in all directions; \nyou seek that place and on finding it feel you have done real work \ngetting there.\n\nRemarkably, all one really needs to do to achieve this state is to \nnever, ever have read another book of literature. Literature has only \ncamels to offer anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAB1FF.4030307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:18:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 3:06 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Perhaps, although Nettle is not a Neighbor. But that could be considered\nan evolutionary step up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, a good point to consider. Though not as good at it as Neighbors, perhaps humans have\na limited ability to share their soul with each other? If so, Horn and Nettle have surely\ndone so, if anyone has. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321907044.33585.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:24:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAB1C3.6020200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nIt seems to me that what you do is find the easiest path to\nthe lowest place and amaze yourself at how easy it is to\ndefend it. You are Wolfe's ideal foolish reader---you fall\nfor every single one of his plausible surface explanations,\nwhich are ALWAYS provided. It's as though he makes a place\nwhere one can stand and see nothing going on in all\ndirections; you seek that place and on finding it feel you\nhave done real work getting there.\n\nRemarkably, all one really needs to do to achieve this\nstate is to never, ever have read another book of\nliterature. Literature has only camels to offer anyway.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh heh heh. they are fun on a second reading to see through, but those plausible surface explanations get old when you are trying to delineate a very simple point. \"Babbie is asking for a weapon there cuz Hoof sayz so.\" ARGH " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAB8DB.5050607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T20:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321907044.33585.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 3:24 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Mon, 11/21/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me that what you do is find the easiest path to\nthe lowest place and amaze yourself at how easy it is to\ndefend it. You are Wolfe's ideal foolish reader---you fall\nfor every single one of his plausible surface explanations,\nwhich are ALWAYS provided. It's as though he makes a place\nwhere one can stand and see nothing going on in all\ndirections; you seek that place and on finding it feel you\nhave done real work getting there.\n\nRemarkably, all one really needs to do to achieve this\nstate is to never, ever have read another book of\nliterature. Literature has only camels to offer anyway.\n_______________________________________________\nheh heh heh. they are fun on a second reading to see through, but those plausible surface explanations get old when you are trying to delineate a very simple point. \"Babbie is asking for a weapon there cuz Hoof sayz so.\" ARGH" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be fair, some are quite sneaky. You read through, seeing through a \nfew, then come to a passage that makes you uncomfortable, but you HAVE \nto accept it and go on. It's like a default low-energy state. You can \nonly process so much in one reading. I knew Babbie was Horn on first \nread, but I couldn't say how or why so I had to put it away.\n\nOnly on second reading, when you confirm your readings, you can look at \nthem again." } ] }, { "message_id": "<602CA7F39DE942879074C2A89EE13870@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAB1C3.6020200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHorn fell in and was badly concussed. [As with Auk before him, this was \nthe prelude to a mystical evolution, but that’s not germane to the \nepisode, it’s just a trope that Wolfe recycles.] The Neighbours did \ntheir best to help him but they live in another dimension and can’t move \nanything physical or bring him water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how you know this but I agree. Typical Faerie behavior." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know it because we are told it in the text. I haven't reached IGJ in my \nre-read yet, but I remember the sewer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What they did was touch his forehead with a mental amplifier that \ntemporarily gave him the ability to astrally travel and get help. \nUnfortunately he went to Nettle who could not help him and indeed became \nfrightened, thinking I suppose that he was a ghost or inhumu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly. I said much the same thing (you called it \"inane sarcasm\") and \nsuggested that it was a test of sorts, whether of Horn or of his \n\"recovery.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that was one of the comments I was thinking of as sarcasm. Of \ncourse a \"test-drive\" might seem a bit ludicrous in some ways but that's \nwhat you get with resurrection theories. My theory is simpler - they do \nwhat they can to help, but Horn isn't able to take advantage by going to \nSeawrack as he should have. (Or she might have already left the boat, in \nwhich case maybe he couldn't have gone to her anyway.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only other human or quasi-human entity on the island at that time \nwas Seawrack (Krait may have been hanging around already, but even if \nthe Neighbours knew that, they wouldn’t have expected him to help)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Note: I know now he was already hanging around; I hadn't spotted the \ntimeline clues then.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you think the Neighbors do not know the inhumi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to save the \nlife of an injured human will do anything more than give the inhumu a good \nlaugh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is possible that they didn’t recognise Seawrack as human. It’s also \npossible that they tried to communicate with her but she fled. We know \nshe is terrified of Neighbour constructions at least — it’s probable \nthat she is even more terrified of Neighbours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would either Krait or Seawrack have anything to do with it? Why \nwouldn't she have told Horn if they appeared to her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She's the obvious person to ask for help for Horn, but they may not have \nrecognised her as such. But if they did, and she fled from them, thereby \ncondemning Horn to death if Krait had not intervened, it wouldn't be an easy \nthing to admit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is their motivation in helping Horn if they are not willing to \nappear to his friends like Lassie barking that Tommy is down the well? \nAre they moral people at all, even to the extent of helping themselves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've proposed that they probably did try that, and if they didn't it's \npecause they didn't recognise the possibility. Your question would be \nbetter addressed to James, whose theory has considerable issues of exactly \nthis kind. Their actions according to his theory seem remarkably whimsical, \nand I think Horn would have resented them if asked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was this abandonment of Horn due to her fear that she is \nrationalising. Of course the simple scenario that she is ignorant of \nhuman life and ordinary death — everyone she has met has quickly died \nand stayed dead — is also perfectly possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Easily disproved, but to you, possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disproved? How? I am only on the next chamber, but I understand Seawrack \n(if she started human) was taken as a small child and used to lure seamen to \ntheir death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated Horn’s \nsubsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We already see \nthat he has changed when he is going with Krait to find Seawrack — he \nsees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a consciousness of \ndetail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the change is the sort of \nthing we might particularly expect to associate with a Neighbour \npsyche — affinity with trees, consciousness of other dimensions, feeling \nhe’s missing limbs, whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And your evidence for this expectation of \"whatever\" is where? Give page \nnumbers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees (Mark \nthinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an adjacent \ndimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question serious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where did he get his trailblazing ability from---is that not to be \nexpected from association with \"a Neighbour psyche\"? What do you think \nthat \"sharpness\" is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it awakened certain powers innate in humans. He got his initial \njaunt as a consequence of some device pressed to his forehead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He doesn’t develop superpowers just like that, it requires other events \nand experiences — his experiences on Green, his death, his experiments \non inhumi which he is *contemplating carrying out in the future* during \nhis time as Rajan of Gaon.\nAnyway, that’s my working theory for the moment. I think it fits the \nfacts and involves the swallowing of fewer camels than scenarios in \nwhich Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, but you failed to outline in detail how the timing of events in \nthe pit helps your case, just as you have failed to detail why it hurts \nours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said my theory doesn't depend too much on the timing. I think the timing \n(late long-nose) causes obvious problems for James's theory of an impetuous \nyoung Neighbour who kills Horn by accident, then decides to leap into his \nbody and continue his mission. Perhaps James will modify his theory to be \nmore consistent with the timing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that what you do is find the easiest path to the lowest \nplace and amaze yourself at how easy it is to defend it. You are Wolfe's \nideal foolish reader---you fall for every single one of his plausible \nsurface explanations, which are ALWAYS provided. It's as though he makes a \nplace where one can stand and see nothing going on in all directions; you \nseek that place and on finding it feel you have done real work getting \nthere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The explanation I provided is no more a surface explanation than James's. \nLittle of it is stated explicitly by Wolfe. The question is, which \nexplanation works?\n\nI've noticed that some posters don't even see explanations that are clearly \ngiven. They dream up absurd farragoes based on a word here and a syllable \nthere. When challenged they take refuge in a standard mantra: \"Oh, Wolfe \nis such an incredibly subtle and ambiguous writer, nobody can understand \nhim. Let me ignore his text some more and slather out yet another great \ndollop of unsupported nonsense.\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:24:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<602CA7F39DE942879074C2A89EE13870@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nThey know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to save the \nlife of an injured human will do anything more than give the inhumu a good \nlaugh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that their response to the arrival of the whorl is to send Quetzal. \nIt isn't impossible that Krait was always part of their rescue plan.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAC61A.1010107@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:43:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA6921.5050501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost \nconsciousness\nthemselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is compared \nto death.\nAnd what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?\nIs it easy to distinguish even medically? Some awake after many years\n(without outside help!).\nSome are killed legally.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/20/2011 2:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates \nthat he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good lord.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAC6C9.4060600@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA6CEE.4060902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You call this \"intimate knowledge\"?! Tasting some drowned people? I think\nit's my turn to cry \"Good Lord\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/20/2011 2:44 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is said in the context when Seawrack tries naively to justify \nherself (why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the life on \nland. Mother\nsaid that she must learn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seawrack is INTIMATELY familiar with dead humans. She knows how water \ntreats them and how they taste, and their texture. it's the living \nones where she has knowledge gaps.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAC842.7010803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:53:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC61A.1010107@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 3:43 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nPeople who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost \nconsciousness\nthemselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is \ncompared to death.\nAnd what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?\nIs it easy to distinguish even medically? Some awake after many years\n(without outside help!).\nSome are killed legally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what to say to this, Sergei.\nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why \nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place. \nAfter all, he could have just had Horn get separated from Seawrack and \nBabbie, to allow his encounter with Krait.\nAdditionally, they need to explain why the text is justified at the end \nof Chapter 8, entitled \"The End\".\n\n***************\nVery suddenly I was falling into darkness.\n\nHere and thus baldly I had intended to end both tonight’s labor and this \nwhole section of my narrative. I wiped this new quill of Oreb’s and put \nit away, shut up the scuffed little pen case I found where my father \nmust have left it in the ashes of our old shop, and locked the drawer \nthat holds this record, a thick sheaf of paper already.\n\nBut it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer’s drawing his \nmap and the rest. Either that fall must be the end of the entire work \n(which might be wisest) or else it cannot close at all.\n\nSo let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best part of \nmy life was over. The pit was its grave.\n***************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAC956.2040300@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-21T21:57:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA6D63.5030205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My main objection is to the \"binary logics\" - pushing of everything to \nabsolute\nextreme (absolute \"yes\" or \"no\"). How anybody acquires new abilities is\nvery interesting. But it is possible without dying.\nE.g., Jorge Luis Borges started to write novels after he\nwas hit in the head. Mystics often compared their prophetic experience\nwith death. (Muhammad got the Quran in one second when he\nhad an epileptic fit. ) Some traces of this remain in the ritual\nwhen somebody becomes monk - he has to die to the world, his name\nis changed etc.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat is at least plausible.\n\nWhy do you think a death here harms the story? How do you explain \nHorn's newfound abilities?\n\nOn 11/20/2011 2:47 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And because she thinks that Horn is dead, she is afraid to come\nbecause all her undersea wild instincts may awake. She is afraid\nthat she may want to eat Horn. She is too afraid to check whether\nhe is alive. And she wants so much to be like \"normal\" humans.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind of where my \neaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to commune with neighbors, \neucharist, etc.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:22 AM\n\nUhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part\nof my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition,\ndoesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some\ndisturbing deathly images.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n*From:* James Wynn\n\nGerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the\nNeighbors must be acting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we\nwere talking about" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\nI don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you\nthink I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often\nact in concert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\npersonal guilt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision.\nI can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\nsaying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour\nbending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or\nactively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn\nwas stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went”\nrefers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of\nthem. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or\nhelped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded\nhim of what he was.\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\nindicates that he did and a million things that make it\nobvious that he didn’t. - Gerry Quinn\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECACA39.8080702@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7D4E.80109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it is undermining his second \"resurrection\" - central to the \nbook - his spirit\npassing into the body of Silk and guiding him to Blue.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/21/2011 10:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence \n- that either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first \nmakes the whole story a sham (not so much for us as for the \ncharacters), the second introduces an element that not only seems to \nbe otherwise absent from LS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular \nwith no justification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK. What justification is needed for a character on a great, \nimpossible quest to die and be resurrected before he achieves his goal?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECACB4E.7030705@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:06:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECA7D7D.1010207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Gerry is often in the role of \"underdog\" - you are many, and it \nlooks like (for a participant\nwho has no animosity or personal interest to take sides) you often \nimmediately\n(and aggressively) support\neach other just from friendship or whatever -\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/21/2011 10:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your \ntactics for what they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a reminder that your own tactics are on full view as well.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECACCF5.8040406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:13:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<602CA7F39DE942879074C2A89EE13870@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 11/21/2011 2:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Horn fell in and was badly concussed. [As with Auk before him, this \nwas > the prelude to a mystical evolution, but that’s not germane to \nthe > episode, it’s just a trope that Wolfe recycles.] The Neighbours \ndid > their best to help him but they live in another dimension and \ncan’t move > anything physical or bring him water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure how you know this but I agree. Typical Faerie behavior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know it because we are told it in the text. I haven't reached IGJ \nin my re-read yet, but I remember the sewer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. That Neighbor says they COULD do it themselves, but Horn would do \nit better. Perhaps it is in some strange way also true of Horn in the \npit, even though it doesn't seem that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What they did was touch his forehead with a mental amplifier that > \ntemporarily gave him the ability to astrally travel and get help. > \nUnfortunately he went to Nettle who could not help him and indeed \nbecame > frightened, thinking I suppose that he was a ghost or inhumu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly. I said much the same thing (you called it \"inane sarcasm\") \nand suggested that it was a test of sorts, whether of Horn or of his \n\"recovery.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that was one of the comments I was thinking of as \nsarcasm. Of course a \"test-drive\" might seem a bit ludicrous in some \nways but that's what you get with resurrection theories. My theory is \nsimpler - they do what they can to help, but Horn isn't able to take \nadvantage by going to Seawrack as he should have. (Or she might have \nalready left the boat, in which case maybe he couldn't have gone to \nher anyway.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only other human or quasi-human entity on the island at that \ntime > was Seawrack (Krait may have been hanging around already, but \neven if > the Neighbours knew that, they wouldn’t have expected him \nto help)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Note: I know now he was already hanging around; I hadn't spotted the \ntimeline clues then.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you think the Neighbors do not know the inhumi?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to save \nthe life of an injured human will do anything more than give the \ninhumu a good laugh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they think much better of the sentient inhumi than we do at \nfirst and Horn does, and they (the Neighbors) aren't nearly as \nsentimental about life and death as we are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is possible that they didn’t recognise Seawrack as human. It’s \nalso > possible that they tried to communicate with her but she fled. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We know > she is terrified of Neighbour constructions at least — it’s \nprobable > that she is even more terrified of Neighbours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would either Krait or Seawrack have anything to do with it? Why \nwouldn't she have told Horn if they appeared to her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's the obvious person to ask for help for Horn, but they may not \nhave recognised her as such. But if they did, and she fled from them, \nthereby condemning Horn to death if Krait had not intervened, it \nwouldn't be an easy thing to admit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or to hide." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What is their motivation in helping Horn if they are not willing to \nappear to his friends like Lassie barking that Tommy is down the \nwell? > Are they moral people at all, even to the extent of helping \nthemselves?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've proposed that they probably did try that, and if they didn't it's \npecause they didn't recognise the possibility. Your question would be \nbetter addressed to James, whose theory has considerable issues of \nexactly this kind. Their actions according to his theory seem \nremarkably whimsical, and I think Horn would have resented them if asked." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. They obey iron laws that are invisible to us. I think I know \nwhy they interfered and why they didn't physically help him or get help \nfor him. Sometimes it's really important to do things yourself in Faerie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It was this abandonment of Horn due to her fear that she is > \nrationalising. Of course the simple scenario that she is ignorant of \nhuman life and ordinary death — everyone she has met has quickly \ndied > and stayed dead — is also perfectly possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Easily disproved, but to you, possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disproved? How? I am only on the next chamber, but I understand \nSeawrack (if she started human) was taken as a small child and used to \nlure seamen to their death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when she sees \nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated \nHorn’s > subsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We \nalready see > that he has changed when he is going with Krait to find \nSeawrack — he > sees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a \nconsciousness of > detail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the \nchange is the sort of > thing we might particularly expect to \nassociate with a Neighbour > psyche — affinity with trees, \nconsciousness of other dimensions, feeling > he’s missing limbs, \nwhatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And your evidence for this expectation of \"whatever\" is where? Give \npage numbers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees \n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an \nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question serious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like trees, see \nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers \ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through \ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where did he get his trailblazing ability from---is that not to be \nexpected from association with \"a Neighbour psyche\"? What do you \nthink > that \"sharpness\" is?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it awakened certain powers innate in humans. He got his \ninitial jaunt as a consequence of some device pressed to his forehead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trailblazing through Faerie is an \"innate human power\"? Gerry, I don;t \nthink you and I use words the same way.\n\nHorn was what we Dungeons and Dragons players in high school would have \ncalled \"blessed.\" He gets a +150 in trailblazing and a -200% chance to \never get lost in woods. Thorny branches caress him and hedges part \nbefore him. These ... are ... not ... innate ... human ... powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He doesn’t develop superpowers just like that, it requires other \nevents > and experiences — his experiences on Green, his death, his \nexperiments > on inhumi which he is *contemplating carrying out in \nthe future* during > his time as Rajan of Gaon.\nAnyway, that’s my working theory for the moment. I think it fits \nthe > facts and involves the swallowing of fewer camels than \nscenarios in > which Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks, but you failed to outline in detail how the timing of events \nin the pit helps your case, just as you have failed to detail why it \nhurts ours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said my theory doesn't depend too much on the timing. I think the \ntiming (late long-nose) causes obvious problems for James's theory of \nan impetuous young Neighbour who kills Horn by accident, then decides \nto leap into his body and continue his mission. Perhaps James will \nmodify his theory to be more consistent with the timing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've said our theory doesn't depend on the timing at all. You may be \nright about one thing: maybe the trap was deliberate, not impetuous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me that what you do is find the easiest path to the \nlowest place and amaze yourself at how easy it is to defend it. You \nare Wolfe's ideal foolish reader---you fall for every single one of \nhis plausible surface explanations, which are ALWAYS provided. It's \nas though he makes a place where one can stand and see nothing going \non in all directions; you seek that place and on finding it feel you \nhave done real work getting there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The explanation I provided is no more a surface explanation than \nJames's. Little of it is stated explicitly by Wolfe. The question is, \nwhich explanation works?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yours least of all, as I have explained." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECACD13.9080307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:13:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:24 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to save \nthe life of an injured human will do anything more than give the \ninhumu a good laugh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that their response to the arrival of the whorl is to send \nQuetzal. It isn't impossible that Krait was always part of their \nrescue plan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. Even if they simply let it unfold." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECACEE8.8080303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACA39.8080702@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):\nWhy do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:01 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBecause it is undermining his second \"resurrection\" - central to the \nbook - his spirit\npassing into the body of Silk and guiding him to Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. It only *necessarily* undermines a particular reading of that event.\nOn the first reading, the audience assumes that Horn made it to Green \nand is then transported to Silk.\nBut the narrator has said throughout the book that he horribly failed in \nhis task. Understanding that Horn failed in his quest even before \nreaching Pajarocu. Just as we thought the narrator of LS was a \nomniscient narrator but turned out to be a couple of kids who went to \nSilk's school, we find out eventually the narrator of SS is not Horn but \nsomeone else. In this case, the second resurrection is caused to make \nsense because we realize that the Horn who went to Green, who \nnegotiated with the Neighbors, is not human.\nA changeling has been inserted into the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:06 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think Gerry is often in the role of \"underdog\" - you are many, and \nit looks like (for a participant\nwho has no animosity or personal interest to take sides) you often \nimmediately\n(and aggressively) support\neach other just from friendship or whatever - " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry is a provocative fellow. I have many times proclaimed that I just \nwon't read is posts. I'm pretty sure I've read posts from both David and \nLee that declare the same. But then I'll note that he has asked a really \ngood question and I respond to. But it invariably comes to the fact that \nGerry's approach to Wolfe is so alien to mine and so useless to mine, \nthat he takes such open pleasure in being ornery, that every time I just \nkick myself for being engaged again. He's like a crazy girlfriend I once \nhad." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321915620.42350.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACEE8.8080303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, James Wynn wrote:\nGerry is a provocative fellow. I have many times proclaimed\nthat I just won't read is posts. I'm pretty sure I've read\nposts from both David and Lee that declare the same. But\nthen I'll note that he has asked a really good question and\nI respond to. But it invariably comes to the fact that\nGerry's approach to Wolfe is so alien to mine and so useless\nto mine, that he takes such open pleasure in being ornery,\nthat every time I just kick myself for being engaged again.\nHe's like a crazy girlfriend I once had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think most authors CAN be read meaningfully on the surface level, even supposedly highbrow ones like Tolstoy et al, but Wolfe is THE most obscure, clever, tricky, cryptic fellow - the stories don't make as much sense until you start to do the analysis, it's just clear he likes to be tricksy. (for example, making green and blue colored green and blue like urth and lune, you know he wants people to TRY to map the planets to them, and FAIL.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<22B77D81A6B64C12A61D6F131E375B21@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T22:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Duffy " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to save the \nlife of an injured human will do anything more than give the inhumu a good \nlaugh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that their response to the arrival of the whorl is to send Quetzal. \nIt isn't impossible that Krait was always part of their rescue plan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that might be so if they observed thefirst conversation between Krait and Horn.\nI don’t think they’d have asked a random inhumu to help, though.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:00:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC842.7010803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why \nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After all, he could have just had Horn get separated from Seawrack and \nBabbie, to allow his encounter with Krait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He’d have to be separated for days, to be in such a state that he betrayed his wife and children to the inhumu to save his life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, they need to explain why the text is justified at the end \nof Chapter 8, entitled \"The End\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "***************\nVery suddenly I was falling into darkness. [?]\n\nBut it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer’s drawing his \nmap and the rest. Either that fall must be the end of the entire work \n(which might be wisest) or else it cannot close at all.\n\nSo let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best part of \nmy life was over. The pit was its grave.\n***************\n\nWell, it is literally true, isn’t it? The best part of his life *was* over. Soon be betrayed Nettle and his sons. He travelled with an inhumu. He was abducted to a hell planet and died there. There might have been something about finding his girlfriend was a mass murdering cannibal too, but I’m not sure of that part yet.\n\nYou’ve got to admit, his life after that moment was a bit of a bummer.\n\nAnd why is he so coy about it, if he died in the pit anyway? He’s been telling us all along about that *other* time he died. What was different that time?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5FBBFA00F7F4443EA6A322F2FC8B9B4A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:15:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACCF5.8040406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Disproved? How? I am only on the next chamber, but I understand \nSeawrack (if she started human) was taken as a small child and used to \nlure seamen to their death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when she sees \nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She knows they don’t move if you stick a fork in them. I don’t know how you deduce she knows much more than that. She didn’t get close enough to Horn to try him out.\nThere’s no evidence that she has some special corpse-identification ability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated \nHorn’s > subsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We \nalready see > that he has changed when he is going with Krait to find \nSeawrack — he > sees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a \nconsciousness of > detail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the \nchange is the sort of > thing we might particularly expect to \nassociate with a Neighbour > psyche — affinity with trees, \nconsciousness of other dimensions, feeling > he’s missing limbs, \nwhatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And your evidence for this expectation of \"whatever\" is where? Give \npage numbers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees \n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an \nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question serious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like trees, see \nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers \ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through \ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who cares about fairies? We’re talking about Neighbours, not fairies. Maybe they have some things in common, but we only know those from our knowledge of the Neighbours anyway. The trees, the other dimensions, the extra limbs — these are Neighbour associations. You think Horn has acquired a Neighbour soul — you’d expect any changes in his psyche to fit with what we know of Neighbours.\n\nAnd the changes don’t seem to fit fairies much anyway, if it matters. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Where did he get his trailblazing ability from---is that not to be \nexpected from association with \"a Neighbour psyche\"? What do you \nthink > that \"sharpness\" is?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it awakened certain powers innate in humans. He got his \ninitial jaunt as a consequence of some device pressed to his forehead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Trailblazing through Faerie is an \"innate human power\"? Gerry, I don;t \nthink you and I use words the same way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn’t that much later, after further encounters with the Neighbours? [And he was trailblazing through Blue, not Faerie. There are no indications he ever went to Faerie. That applies to the Neighbours? dimension too, which may be analogous in some ways to Faerie but does not appear identical.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6677D545A8714D4BB8BC0598871EDA17@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:26:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321915620.42350.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think most authors CAN be read meaningfully on the surface level, \neven supposedly highbrow ones like Tolstoy et al, but Wolfe is THE \nmost obscure, clever, tricky, cryptic fellow - the stories don't make a\ns much sense until you start to do the analysis, it's just clear he likes\nto be tricksy. (for example, making green and blue colored green\n and blue like urth and lune, you know he wants people to TRY to map \nthe planets to them, and FAIL.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think such a mapping is intended to be suggested at all. For a start, Lune is a satellite of Urth, not a full-sized planet. \n\nThe stories may make more sense if you read them and don’t try to superimpose impossibilities.\n\nFar, far too much is made of Wolfe’s supposed ambiguity and obscurity. If Wolfe gave you a shopping list that said bacon and potatoes and cabbage, you’d ponder it for half a day and return from the shops with a bar of soap, a cat, and a left-handed can-opener!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECADE8D.4030703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:28:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC6C9.4060600@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What else would you call it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:46 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nYou call this \"intimate knowledge\"?! Tasting some drowned people? I think\nit's my turn to cry \"Good Lord\"!\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/20/2011 2:44 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is said in the context when Seawrack tries naively to justify \nherself (why she didn't\nhelp). And she knows very little about human life and the life on \nland. Mother\nsaid that she must learn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seawrack is INTIMATELY familiar with dead humans. She knows how water \ntreats them and how they taste, and their texture. it's the living \nones where she has knowledge gaps.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE04B.50008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:35:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC61A.1010107@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember thinking that's what happened to Severian. Fool me twice!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:43 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nPeople who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost \nconsciousness\nthemselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is \ncompared to death.\nAnd what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?\nIs it easy to distinguish even medically? Some awake after many years\n(without outside help!).\nSome are killed legally.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/20/2011 2:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Horn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly indicates \nthat he did and a million things that make it obvious that he didn’t. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good lord.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE080.3080007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:36:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC956.2040300@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is science fiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:57 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nMy main objection is to the \"binary logics\" - pushing of everything to \nabsolute\nextreme (absolute \"yes\" or \"no\"). How anybody acquires new abilities is\nvery interesting. But it is possible without dying.\nE.g., Jorge Luis Borges started to write novels after he\nwas hit in the head. Mystics often compared their prophetic experience\nwith death. (Muhammad got the Quran in one second when he\nhad an epileptic fit. ) Some traces of this remain in the ritual\nwhen somebody becomes monk - he has to die to the world, his name\nis changed etc.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is at least plausible.\n\nWhy do you think a death here harms the story? How do you explain \nHorn's newfound abilities?\n\nOn 11/20/2011 2:47 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And because she thinks that Horn is dead, she is afraid to come\nbecause all her undersea wild instincts may awake. She is afraid\nthat she may want to eat Horn. She is too afraid to check whether\nhe is alive. And she wants so much to be like \"normal\" humans.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Also, she says, \"dead things are food\", which is kind of where my \neaten thing comes in, with sharing blood to commune with neighbors, \neucharist, etc.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Marc Aramini //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:22 AM\n\nUhh ... the chapter is titled \"the end\" and it says \"the best part\nof my life was oveer. The pit was its grave\". In addition,\ndoesn't she say he was dead? come on man there are at least some\ndisturbing deathly images.\n\n--- On *Sun, 11/20/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:18 AM\n\n*From:* James Wynn\n\nGerry's mistake (one of them) is thinking that all the\nNeighbors must be acting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "in concert, always with larger ultimate plan in mind. If we\nwere talking about" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "a human character, he wouldn't make that mistake.\nI don’t think that about Neighbours and I don;t know where you\nthink I have suggested it. Like humans, they clearly do often\nact in concert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Just because a young faerie has acted to resurrect Horn out of\npersonal guilt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "does not mean he stopped to plan beyond that decision.\nI can’t understand how you entertain this hypothesis. Are you\nsaying Horn was dead or alive when he noticed a Neighbour\nbending over him? If the Neighbour waited for him to die, or\nactively killed him, he’d have had time to notice that Horn\nwas stuck in a pit. Maybe he thought humans could fly.\nAlso, if “Glittering eyes and sharp faces came and went”\nrefers to Neighbours, there must have been more than one of\nthem. Surely they would have dissuaded their comrade, or\nhelped him if they could not dissuade him. Or just reminded\nhim of what he was.\nHorn didn’t die in the pit. There’s nothing that strongly\nindicates that he did and a million things that make it\nobvious that he didn’t. - Gerry Quinn\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE0A3.6020502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:37:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACA39.8080702@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 5:01 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBecause it is undermining his second \"resurrection\" - central to the \nbook - his spirit\npassing into the body of Silk and guiding him to Blue.\n\nSergei\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think the problem with Horn dying at this point is the consequence \n- that either there is no more Horn or Horn resurrects. The first \nmakes the whole story a sham (not so much for us as for the \ncharacters), the second introduces an element that not only seems to \nbe otherwise absent from LS/SS, but is applied to Horn in particular \nwith no justification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK. What justification is needed for a character on a great, \nimpossible quest to die and be resurrected before he achieves his goal?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE0F5.4000100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:38:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACB4E.7030705@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe, except that James and I actually can't stand each other for \npolitical reasons. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 5:06 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think Gerry is often in the role of \"underdog\" - you are many, and \nit looks like (for a participant\nwho has no animosity or personal interest to take sides) you often \nimmediately\n(and aggressively) support\neach other just from friendship or whatever -\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/21/2011 10:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I shan’t comment further. I think everyone on this list can see your \ntactics for what they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just a reminder that your own tactics are on full view as well.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE150.9090303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:40:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<22B77D81A6B64C12A61D6F131E375B21@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 5:47 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Duffy \nOn Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They know the inhumi very well. They don't think asking one to \nsave the\nlife of an injured human will do anything more than give the \ninhumu a good\nlaugh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that their response to the arrival of the whorl is to send \nQuetzal.\nIt isn't impossible that Krait was always part of their rescue plan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose that might be so if they observed the\nfirst conversation between Krait and Horn.\nI don’t think they’d have asked a random inhumu to help, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They would never ask anyone for help, ever." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321919212.60740.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE0F5.4000100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 3:38 PM\nMaybe, except that James and I\nactually can't stand each other for political reasons. ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Much the same reason I can't stand myself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE4B5.6010206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 6:00 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn \nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place.\nTo explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But to what purpose? To merely emphasize that Horn was knocked really, \nreally unconscious---hard enough to acquire Faerie powers? And Babbie \nwas also really impressed---oh, but they have no medical experience with \nhumans." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE4BA.90607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:54:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn \nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place.\nTo explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah. He didn't need to complicate things by having both her and Babbie \ncheck him out and say, \"Well, I guess dead. No sense trying to listen to \nhis heart or anything. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After all, he could have just had Horn get separated from Seawrack and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Babbie, to allow his encounter with Krait.\n\nHe'd have to be separated for days, to be in such a state that\nhe betrayed his wife and children to the inhumu to save his life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was separated for days. Two days and an afternoon, if I recall my \nprevious count correctly. But he only needed to be separated for a few \nhours for Seawrack and Babbie not to know where to find him.\nHe does not betray them to the inhumu. Nor, by the time he writes this \naccount, view his time with Krait and something to be regretted. He sees \nhim as his true son. (I realize you haven't got to that places yet. \nSpoiler.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, they need to explain why the text is justified at the end\nof Chapter 8, entitled \"The End\".\n\n***************\nVery suddenly I was falling into darkness. [---]\nBut it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer's drawing his\nmap and the rest. Either that fall must be the end of the entire work\n(which might be wisest) or else it cannot close at all.\nSo let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best part of\nmy life was over. The pit was its grave.\n***************\nWell, it is literally true, isn't it? The best part of his life *was* \nover. Soon be betrayed Nettle and his sons. He travelled with an \ninhumu. He was abducted to a hell planet and died there. There might \nhave been something about finding his girlfriend was a mass murdering \ncannibal too, but I'm not sure of that part yet. You've got to admit, \nhis life after that moment was a bit of a bummer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't notice that his life before that was so great. He knew this \nmission would be no picnic. But the narrator makes more of it. Falling \ninto the pit is not just another event. It would be a fitting place to \nend the novel, he says...or else it just goes on and on. He nowhere \nbemoans dying on Green. He knew Seawrack was no ordinary girl already. \n\"Mass-murdering?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why is he so coy about it, if he died in the pit anyway? He's \nbeen telling us all along about that *other* time he died. What was \ndifferent that time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why did the King of Annwvyn not tell Pwyll's family that he had switched \nidentities with him? He has declared over and over that he is motivated \nto BE Horn.\n\nAnyway, you still have not justified that very hard underlining that the \nnarrator places on this incident...why above all others--even his death \non Green-- this event is so significant. We'll restart this conversation \nagain when you are able to do that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE553.4020709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T23:57:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<5FBBFA00F7F4443EA6A322F2FC8B9B4A@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 6:15 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/21/2011 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Disproved? How? I am only on the next chamber, but I understand\n\nSeawrack (if she started human) was taken as a small child and used to\n\nlure seamen to their death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when she sees" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "them.\nShe knows they don’t move if you stick a fork in them. I don’t know \nhow you deduce she knows much more than that. She didn’t get close \nenough to Horn to try him out.\nThere’s no evidence that she has some special corpse-identification \nability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, because it's not listed next to her name in the character list?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It was his experience with the mental amplifier that initiated\nHorn’s > subsequent development of extraordinary psychic powers. We\nalready see > that he has changed when he is going with Krait to \nfind\nSeawrack — he > sees the world with “a sharpness of detail born of a\nconsciousness of > detail”. He’s changed — but nothing about the\nchange is the sort of > thing we might particularly expect to\nassociate with a Neighbour > psyche — affinity with trees,\nconsciousness of other dimensions, feeling > he’s missing limbs,\nwhatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And your evidence for this expectation of \"whatever\" is where? Give\npage numbers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees\n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an\nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question serious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like trees, see\nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers\ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through\ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who cares about fairies? We’re talking about Neighbours, not fairies. \nMaybe they have some things in common, but we only know those from our \nknowledge of the Neighbours anyway. The trees, the other dimensions, \nthe extra limbs — these are Neighbour associations. You think Horn has \nacquired a Neighbour soul — you’d expect any changes in his psyche to \nfit with what we know of Neighbours.\nAnd the changes don’t seem to fit fairies much anyway, if it matters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've completely backed away abandoned any pretense of discussion on \nthat point. You've left all questions unanswered and just repeat \nyourself. You know nothing of the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Where did he get his trailblazing ability from---is that not to be\nexpected from association with \"a Neighbour psyche\"? What do you\nthink > that \"sharpness\" is?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it awakened certain powers innate in humans. He got his\ninitial jaunt as a consequence of some device pressed to his forehead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Trailblazing through Faerie is an \"innate human power\"? Gerry, I don;t\nthink you and I use words the same way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wasn’t that much later, after further encounters with the Neighbours? \n[And he was trailblazing through Blue, not Faerie. There are no \nindications he ever went to Faerie. That applies to the Neighbours? \ndimension too, which may be analogous in some ways to Faerie but does \nnot appear identical.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've already learned you know nothing of Faerie." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAE7DE.1030306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T00:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE0F5.4000100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 5:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nMaybe, except that James and I actually can't stand each other for \npolitical reasons. ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I'm so dense I didn't even realize I was supposed to do that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAF5B3.4040301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T01:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE7DE.1030306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 7:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/21/2011 5:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe, except that James and I actually can't stand each other for \npolitical reasons. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I'm so dense I didn't even realize I was supposed to do that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are all Fools in our own ways! No, I kid." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T04:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAF5B3.4040301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: People who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost \nconsciousness themselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is compared \nto death. And what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am wondering if this \"vegetative state\" is your explanation for Jesus' death and \n\nresurrection 3 days later. Nothing wrong with that explanation, but I don't think\n\nthat's the point WOlfe is trying to make in this story. Quite the opposite.\n\n \n\nGerry is working as a covert atheist warrior, and thus can be expected to try to argue\n\naway all wisps of myth and religion wherever he may find them, including Wolfe stories.\n\nI don't get the sense you are operating with the same goals, Sergei. \n\n \n\nIt is nice of you to side with the \"underdog\" btw. That is a caring, sympathetic stance.\n\nBut do be aware that the roles were reversed only a few short years ago. Anyone attempting\n\nto investigate the deeper structure of these works was quickly shouted down by a chorus of\n\nGerry types. \n\n \n\nA heroic effort rescued the board from those days. It was pretty bad. It could go weeks and\n\nmonths without anything of greater substance than notice of an article about Wolfe in some\n\nSF magazine. If the pendulum swings too far in the \"creative\" direction and the board becomes\n\nfilled with Gerry's greatest fear-\"unthought out drivel\", things will swing back. But right \n\nnow I think there is a nice balance of thought and criticism.\n\n \n\nDon't you? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 5:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe, except that James and I actually can't stand each other for \npolitical reasons. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James WynnAnd I'm so dense I didn't even realize I was supposed to do that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh. That's pretty funny! But isn't political disagreement between you two expected,\n\ngiven your respective home states? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321938020.55352.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T05:00:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n. Anyone attempting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to investigate the deeper structure of these works was\nquickly shouted down by a chorus of\n\nGerry types. \n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In theory, I don't mind Gerry's skepticism; everyone has their roles. \n\nYet the weirdest accusation was leveled at me today when Wolfe's grocery list came up today: that I would turn potatoes into a left handed socket wrenches. But Gene DID write me a very simple three word sentence that is a noun, a linking verb, and a predicate nominative, and I, contrary to that accusation, was the only person in the universe to take it at face value instead of taking it as some engineering joke, a metaphor, etc. I feel like hard nosed metaphorical dismissal of evidence is more like turning a potato into something else - not what I do. I believe in symbols of course, but those symbols are something more than just useless metaphor, they can be applied to shape character with their hard, defining edges.\n\nDon't you remember the literary technique Severian talked about? A torturer paid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and by positioning them just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative, and I see it on this board, (until time holds my own severed head up for inspection.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB34B5.1060908@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T05:35:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Purloined Shopping List", "in_reply_to": "<1321938020.55352.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:00 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nYet the weirdest accusation was leveled at me today when Wolfe's\ngrocery list came up today: that I would turn potatoes into a left\nhanded socket wrenches. But Gene DID write me a very simple three\nword sentence that is a noun, a linking verb, and a predicate\nnominative, and I, contrary to that accusation, was the only person\nin the universe to take it at face value" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't you overlooking a word?\n\n\nIIRC, it said, \"No, Green is URTH!\"\n\n\nor did it say, \"No Green is URTH!\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB8A12.6000307@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-22T11:40:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAC842.7010803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear James," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/21/2011 3:43 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost \nconsciousness\nthemselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is \ncompared to death.\nAnd what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?\nIs it easy to distinguish even medically? Some awake after many years\n(without outside help!).\nSome are killed legally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know what to say to this, Sergei.\nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why \nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place. \nAfter all, he could have just had Horn get separated from Seawrack and \nBabbie, to allow his encounter with Krait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Wolfe is step by step \"building\" (for us) her character. \nMostly she is\nshown through the eyes of Horn. False diagnosis says a lot about her - \nher naivety,\nbut also her \"partly animal\" nature acquired when she was living with Mother\nand her cruelty - and simple way to look at live and death. In the \nbeginning she is\njust dazzlingly beautiful naked girl with one\nhand (we quickly understand that it was eaten by Babbie, but this was \nnot said directly),\nbut soon we start to understand her as a complex personality.\n\nThe idea that Horn literally died in the pit adds much less\nfrom the point of view of understanding of his personality and quest.\n\nI think that Wolfe himself is interested in various nuances on the\nborder of life and death. In the pit died the best part of Horn's life.\n\nWhat part of his life died when he met his father in the Whorl? I think\nthat this encounter has to be considered under this angle as well.\n\nSomething died when he met (during a \"ghost visit\" to Green) chained\nChenille and learned what happened to her and Auk on Green. (I am\nnot sure, was it some part of Horn or Silk's soul that was in danger there.)\n\nIn the end of the OBW, the scene where one hypothesis says that\nHorn's soul went into Babbie, I see a possibility of different reading.\nI think the Outsider is involved, and in some sense Silkhorn runs\nto him in the forest LIKE Babbie did (or would) run to himself.\n\nAnd if Horn completely died (departed) in the very end (after\nRemora quoted the lines about Hyacinth), who (he or Silk) wanted\nso much to call Seawrack - and why Silk (if only Silk remains)\ndeparted with her? Did she replace in some way Hyacinth for\nhim? Why did she accept him, instead of Horn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, they need to explain why the text is justified at the \nend of Chapter 8, entitled \"The End\".\n\n***************\nVery suddenly I was falling into darkness.\n\nHere and thus baldly I had intended to end both tonight’s labor and \nthis whole section of my narrative. I wiped this new quill of Oreb’s \nand put it away, shut up the scuffed little pen case I found where my \nfather must have left it in the ashes of our old shop, and locked the \ndrawer that holds this record, a thick sheaf of paper already.\n\nBut it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer’s drawing \nhis map and the rest. Either that fall must be the end of the entire \nwork (which might be wisest) or else it cannot close at all.\n\nSo let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best part \nof my life was over. The pit was its grave.\n***************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I explain, it is one of many ends. And I think the reading is richer \nif you do\nnot see maximal \"yes\" or maximal \"no\" on any occasion.\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB8AD6.8020207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T11:43:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321938020.55352.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, you have to calm down a bit. Gerry's grocery list remark was NOT \nleveled/directed/whatever at you. He has taken the time to say more than \nonce that your ideas (yours, specifically, Marc's), no matter how outrageous \nthey may seem to most here, are NOT random but methodical. I have said as \nmuch. Perhaps you're looking too hard for contrariness." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB8B52.60906@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-22T11:45:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACEE8.8080303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-11-2011 15:25):\nWhy do you think a death here harms the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:01 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because it is undermining his second \"resurrection\" - central to the \nbook - his spirit\npassing into the body of Silk and guiding him to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. It only *necessarily* undermines a particular reading of that event.\nOn the first reading, the audience assumes that Horn made it to Green \nand is then transported to Silk.\nBut the narrator has said throughout the book that he horribly failed \nin his task. Understanding that Horn failed in his quest even before \nreaching Pajarocu. Just as we thought the narrator of LS was a \nomniscient narrator but turned out to be a couple of kids who went to \nSilk's school, we find out eventually the narrator of SS is not Horn \nbut someone else. In this case, the second resurrection is caused to \nmake sense because we realize that the Horn who went to Green, who \nnegotiated with the Neighbors, is not human.\nA changeling has been inserted into the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If a changeling was inserted, it is not interesting for the history of \nhumans. Of neighbours,\nmaybe..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 4:06 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Gerry is often in the role of \"underdog\" - you are many, and \nit looks like (for a participant\nwho has no animosity or personal interest to take sides) you often \nimmediately\n(and aggressively) support\neach other just from friendship or whatever - " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry is a provocative fellow. I have many times proclaimed that I \njust won't read is posts. I'm pretty sure I've read posts from both \nDavid and Lee that declare the same. But then I'll note that he has \nasked a really good question and I respond to. But it invariably comes \nto the fact that Gerry's approach to Wolfe is so alien to mine and so \nuseless to mine, that he takes such open pleasure in being ornery, \nthat every time I just kick myself for being engaged again. He's like \na crazy girlfriend I once had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possible, but in the group it is customary to praise each other, and it \ncreates a (sometimes\nfalse) impression of the strength of arguments. He tries all the time to \npresent an independent\nopinion.\n\nS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB8BA2.4090308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T11:46:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8A12.6000307@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (22-11-2011 11:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if Horn completely died (departed) in the very end (after\nRemora quoted the lines about Hyacinth), who (he or Silk) wanted\nso much to call Seawrack - and why Silk (if only Silk remains)\ndeparted with her? Did she replace in some way Hyacinth for\nhim? Why did she accept him, instead of Horn?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've asked this twice without reply. What's Seawrack doing with a Rajan than \nhas nothing of Horn in him - neither body nor soul? Yes, I know, there's \n'always' 'something' 'left' - but the point is we're precisely discussing \nwhether in the very end there's anything left." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB8F10.5010704@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-22T12:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8BA2.4090308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I consider this question as much more important than many questions\nfiercely discussed (like whether Horn did really die in the pit). I do not\nsee any obvious answer, except, maybe, that she is\nreplacing in some sense Hyacinth for him (that it is is\npart of his soul recovery). About Hyacinth, by the way:\nwhat do you think, was she \"bad\" or \"good\" for Silk's\nsoul? I think it is more important from Wolfe's point\nof view than was she physically a transsexual or a woman.\nIt seems that while in BoTLS it is not obvious (and\nthe love story is very \"romantic\"), the beginning\nof the RttW implies that she was a positive mortal\ndanger, a catastrophe.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSergei SOLOVIEV wrote (22-11-2011 11:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if Horn completely died (departed) in the very end (after\nRemora quoted the lines about Hyacinth), who (he or Silk) wanted\nso much to call Seawrack - and why Silk (if only Silk remains)\ndeparted with her? Did she replace in some way Hyacinth for\nhim? Why did she accept him, instead of Horn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've asked this twice without reply. What's Seawrack doing with a \nRajan than has nothing of Horn in him - neither body nor soul? Yes, I \nknow, there's 'always' 'something' 'left' - but the point is we're \nprecisely discussing whether in the very end there's anything left.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECB9C25.3040108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T12:57:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/21/2011 11:28 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSergei Soloviev: People who insist that Horn died in the pit apparently never lost\nconsciousness themselves - and do not remember how often in literature it is compared\nto death. And what about people in so called \"vegetable state\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am wondering if this \"vegetative state\" is your explanation for Jesus' death and\n\nresurrection 3 days later. Nothing wrong with that explanation, but I don't think\n\nthat's the point WOlfe is trying to make in this story. Quite the opposite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. I think Mary said he looked a little \"green\" after he rolled \naway the stone!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C238EF7F72346EE9B99A597BB9AFB2B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:02:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECACB4E.7030705@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Gerry is often in the role of \"underdog\" - you are many, and it \nlooks like (for a participant\nwho has no animosity or personal interest to take sides) you often \nimmediately\n(and aggressively) support\neach other just from friendship or whatever -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think in some cases individuals who like to put forward theories with not too strong a basis, and which are very vulnerable to challenge based on a careful reading of Wolfe’s work, find common ground with others who put forward different theories with similar problems...\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<37D5DD55897640D2937F3F4309FC3E7E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:10:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE4B5.6010206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* James Wynn \nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why\nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place.\nTo explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But to what purpose? To merely emphasize that Horn was knocked really, \nreally unconscious---hard enough to acquire Faerie powers? And Babbie \nwas also really impressed---oh, but they have no medical experience with \nhumans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think he acquired Neighbour-like powers just from being knocked out. But that’s beside the point. Horn had to be alone for days to be in such a state that he would betray his family to an inhumi. Seawrack deciding he was dead works for this, and also indicates something about her, i.e. that she is relatively clueless about such matters, and perhaps also decides too easily that she has lost her man. \nAs for Babbie, he actually sees him when he is alive. Horn shuts his eyes. Unless you think Horn died exactly then, Babbie got it wrong.\nBut like you say, neither is human even if Seawrack may have been once. Would it be surprising if Horn saw a Neighbour from twenty feet and thought he was dead, then later found out he wasn’t?\nNobody’s even sure how to kill inhumi!\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:19:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<37D5DD55897640D2937F3F4309FC3E7E@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Don't you remember the literary technique Severian talked about? \nA torturer paid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and \nby positioning them just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree fully, Marc. I have used the old/young woman optical illusion and the \nHouse Absolute/Secret House as analogies for the same principle. It is to no avail\nfor some people. They are exclusionary readers and for them there is one and only\none best answer and once determined, it excludes the possibility of multiple meaning.\n \n\"GREEN is Urth!!!\" (I think that is the proper quote, caps to designate BLUE is not Urth).\nMarc I think you recognize there is metaphorical meaning in that. But you also find\nliteral meaning. Why can't it be both, depending on which perspective you are taking in\nregard to space, time and dreams.\n \nLikewise this pointless debate on whether Horn died in the pit. If there is a tranferrable\nsoul being considered, the definition of death is no longer as cut and tried as we, in\nour world, define it. Why can't Horn be dead in one way of looking at things and not really\ndead from another perspective. Moreover, why can't it be recognized that Wolfe writes in\na way in which both can be true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: As I explain, it is one of many ends. And I think the reading is richer \nif you do not see maximal \"yes\" or maximal \"no\" on any occasion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSergei, I think you are on the right track. But you are trying to compromise and thus losing\nsomething on both ends. If we are trying to understand our own human existence, the concept\nof yes or no is needed. Either yes, someone is alive or no, they are not. But if we are\ntrying to understand God, that is too limiting. Jesus is both dead AND alive. God is both\nmaximal yes AND maximal no.\n \nThis is what makes Gene Wolfe a special author. He is simultaneously trying to explore\nhuman existence and an understanding of the divine. We shouldn't ignore either one of these. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F6CD5495E2C44F89DAB4B3FDE63E1CE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:22:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE4BA.90607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why \nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yeah. He didn't need to complicate things by having both her and Babbie check him out and > say, \"Well, I guess dead. No sense trying to listen to his heart or anything. People music: Doy duh dum dum ding dang daaaaah>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he didn’t need to do that. Or he thought he didn’t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After all, he could have just had Horn get separated from Seawrack and \nBabbie, to allow his encounter with Krait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He’d have to be separated for days, to be in such a state that\nhe betrayed his wife and children to the inhumu to save his life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was separated for days. Two days and an afternoon, if I recall \nmy previous count correctly. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he was three full days in the pit. If you want to see that as further support for your resurrection idea, be my guest.\n\nHe fell in during the day.\nA night passed.\nThe next day he saw Babbie.\nThe day after, Krait came.\nThe day after that he licked dew, and the long-nose man came.\nThat night he got out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he only needed to be separated for \na few hours for Seawrack and Babbie not to know where to find him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " If Wolfe had written the story differently, and he had gone off wandering alone and fallen into a pit in some secret valley, I guess. I don’t see what makes it better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He does not betray them to the inhumu. Nor, by the time he writes \nthis account, view his time with Krait and something to be regretted. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He gives Krait the key. For all he knew, Krait would fly off with it and dine well at Maison Horn.\n\nIt’s true he did not *think* Krait would do that. But it was still a major betrayal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He sees him as his true son. (I realize you haven't got to that places yet.\nSpoiler.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No problem, I read the books before, but it’s Wolfe, so now I’m reading them for real, i.e. a second read.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, they need to explain why the text is justified at the end \nof Chapter 8, entitled \"The End\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ***************\n Very suddenly I was falling into darkness. [?]\n But it cannot be. It cannot be a mere incident like Wijzer’s drawing his \n map and the rest. Either that fall must be the end of the entire work \n (which might be wisest) or else it cannot close at all.\n So let me say this to whoever may read. With that fall, the best part of \n my life was over. The pit was its grave.\n ***************\n\n Well, it is literally true, isn’t it? The best part of his life *was* over. Soon be betrayed Nettle and his sons. He travelled with an inhumu. He was abducted to a hell planet and died there. There might have been something about finding his girlfriend was a mass murdering cannibal too, but I’m not sure of that part yet. You’ve got to admit, his life after that moment was a bit of a bummer. \n\nI didn't notice that his life before that was so great. He knew this mission would be no picnic. But the narrator makes more of it. Falling into the pit is not just another event. It would be a fitting place to end the novel, he says...or else it just goes on and on. He nowhere bemoans dying on Green. He knew Seawrack was no ordinary girl already. \"Mass-murdering?\" \n\n\n\n And why is he so coy about it, if he died in the pit anyway? He’s been telling us all along about that *other* time he died. What was different that time?\n\nWhy did the King of Annwvyn not tell Pwyll's family that he had switched identities with him? He has declared over and over that he is motivated to BE Horn. \n\nAnyway, you still have not justified that very hard underlining that the narrator places on this incident...why above all others--even his death on Green-- this event is so significant. We'll restart this conversation again when you are able to do that.\n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<190D2FF449414EC298872BEF85B2D0C6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:29:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAE553.4020709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn\nDavid Stockhoff\nWe apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when she sees\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She knows they don’t move if you stick a fork in them. I don’t know \nhow you deduce she knows much more than that. She didn’t get close \nenough to Horn to try him out.\nThere’s no evidence that she has some special corpse-identification \nability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What, because it's not listed next to her name in the character list?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember what I said about silly sarcasm? That’s an example. Tell me how you know she has that ability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees\n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an\nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question serious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like trees, see\nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers\ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through\ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who cares about fairies? We’re talking about Neighbours, not fairies. \nMaybe they have some things in common, but we only know those from our \nknowledge of the Neighbours anyway. The trees, the other dimensions, \nthe extra limbs — these are Neighbour associations. You think Horn has \nacquired a Neighbour soul — you’d expect any changes in his psyche to \nfit with what we know of Neighbours.\nAnd the changes don’t seem to fit fairies much anyway, if it matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've completely backed away abandoned any pretense of discussion on \nthat point. You've left all questions unanswered and just repeat \nyourself. You know nothing of the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You’re making yourself look silly now. It’s one thing to say the Neighbours have some Faerie-like aspects. It’s another to refuse to discuss them unless I pretend they are not Neighbours but fairies. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wasn’t that much later, after further encounters with the Neighbours? \n[And he was trailblazing through Blue, not Faerie. There are no \nindications he ever went to Faerie. That applies to the Neighbours? \ndimension too, which may be analogous in some ways to Faerie but does \nnot appear identical.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We've already learned you know nothing of Faerie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did we learn that? And if it were true, why would it matter?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/22, ?s 13:19, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"GREEN is Urth!!!\" (I think that is the proper quote, caps to \ndesignate BLUE is not Urth).\nMarc I think you recognize there is metaphorical meaning in that. \nBut you also find\nliteral meaning. Why can't it be both, depending on which \nperspective you are taking in\nregard to space, time and dreams." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Marc has said it can't be also metaphorical. It's \neverybody else who say it can't be also literal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Likewise this pointless debate on whether Horn died in the pit. If \nthere is a tranferrable\nsoul being considered, the definition of death is no longer as cut \nand tried as we, in\nour world, define it. Why can't Horn be dead in one way of looking \nat things and not really\ndead from another perspective. Moreover, why can't it be recognized \nthat Wolfe writes in\na way in which both can be true?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aiui James considers that the definiteness of Horn dying in the pit is \nan important element in itself - not the death, but its definiteness. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:31:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Marc, you have to calm down a bit. Gerry's grocery \nlist remark was NOT leveled/directed/whatever at you. He has taken the time \nto say more than once that your ideas (yours, specifically, Marc's), no matter \nhow outrageous they may seem to most here, are NOT random but methodical. I have \nsaid as much. Perhaps you're looking too hard for contrariness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio, Marc has devoted years of thought, research and writing to his theory. Is\nhe really not supposed to be offended when someone acknowledges his years of thought\nand method but tells him his efforts have not only been a complete waste of time but\nalso have produced ridiculous, mentally deranged solutions. Here is Gerry's statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"If Wolfe gave you a shopping list that said bacon and potatoes and cabbage, you’d ponder \nit for half a day and return from the shops with a bar of soap, a cat, and a left-handed \ncan-opener!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHave you never spent years working on a project? Are you saying you would not take any\noffense if someone evaluated your years of work in such a fashion? Marc is not manufacturing\n\"contrariness\". It is right there, on clear display. Marc is being told his years of effort\nto understand Wolfe were a waste of his time and a waste of space on this board.\n \nFWIW, I have the opposite view from Gerry's, in every way. (except that we are both atheists ;- ))\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<58B90555646F4259AA251B4DB4C66204@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:34:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1321938020.55352.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In theory, I don't mind Gerry's skepticism; everyone has their roles. \n\nYet the weirdest accusation was leveled at me today when Wolfe's \ngrocery list came up today: that I would turn potatoes into a left handed s\nocket wrenches. But Gene DID write me a very simple three word sentence\n that is a noun, a linking verb, and a predicate nominative, and I, contrary \nto that accusation, was the only person in the universe to take it at face \nvalue instead of taking it as some engineering joke, a metaphor, etc. I \nfeel like hard nosed metaphorical dismissal of evidence is more like \nturning a potato into something else - not what I do. I believe in symbols \nof course, but those symbols are something more than just useless metaphor, \nthey can be applied to shape character with their hard, defining edges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little joke, and not directed just as you. \nThere would have to be a spot on the paper that if you looked closely seemed like a left-handed can-opener. That’s how you’d know the potatoes were just misdirection and trickery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't you remember the literary technique Severian talked about? A torturer \npaid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and by positioning\n them just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative, and I see it \non this board, (until time holds my own severed head up for inspection.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just don’t think the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:36:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why on Earth, Lee, do you think Gerry's remark was about Marc?\n\nNo dia 2011/11/22, ?s 13:31, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Marc, you have to calm down a bit. Gerry's \ngrocery\nlist remark was NOT leveled/directed/whatever at you. He has taken \nthe time\nto say more than once that your ideas (yours, specifically, \nMarc's), no matter\nhow outrageous they may seem to most here, are NOT random but \nmethodical. I have\nsaid as much. Perhaps you're looking too hard for contrariness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio, Marc has devoted years of thought, research and writing to \nhis theory. Is\nhe really not supposed to be offended when someone acknowledges his \nyears of thought\nand method but tells him his efforts have not only been a complete \nwaste of time but\nalso have produced ridiculous, mentally deranged solutions. Here is \nGerry's statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"If Wolfe gave you a shopping list that said bacon and potatoes and \ncabbage, you’d ponder\nit for half a day and return from the shops with a bar of soap, a \ncat, and a left-handed\ncan-opener!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you never spent years working on a project? Are you saying you \nwould not take any\noffense if someone evaluated your years of work in such a fashion? \nMarc is not manufacturing\n\"contrariness\". It is right there, on clear display. Marc is being \ntold his years of effort\nto understand Wolfe were a waste of his time and a waste of space on \nthis board.\n\nFWIW, I have the opposite view from Gerry's, in every way. (except \nthat we are both atheists ;- ))\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1A7A1D75606A4686B1A129C4F525763C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:44:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8BA2.4090308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've asked this twice without reply. What's Seawrack doing with a Rajan than \nhas nothing of Horn in him - neither body nor soul? Yes, I know, there's \n'always' 'something' 'left' - but the point is we're precisely discussing \nwhether in the very end there's anything left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of another problem with the “Neighbour replaced Horn in the pit theory”. Wolfe sets up a little mystery about the identity of |Silk and Horn, and drops many little clues throughout. It’s been discussed on the list many times: when is he Horn and when does he become Silk?\nAre we really going to be interested in when a Neighbour masquerading as Horn turns into a Neighbour masquerading as Silk?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56855FEA-6575-4A44-9F23-502158E9DDCD@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:45:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/22, ?s 13:31, entonio at gmail.com escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aiui James considers that the definiteness of Horn dying in the pit \nis an important element in itself - not the death, but its \ndefiniteness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And it's a fact that in literature sometimes it's important that a \nthing should be a certain thing and nor other thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<21EF9F88-16FE-4105-B17D-8C85ED4FB233@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:46:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/22, ?s 13:31, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, I have the opposite view from Gerry's, in every way. (except \nthat we are both atheists ;- ))" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That goes to show that one's religion isn't necessarily important. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<33C1A8D7ADB843218A77502DF37F9E91@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T13:54:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry is working as a covert atheist warrior, and thus can be expected to try to argue\naway all wisps of myth and religion wherever he may find them, including Wolfe stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pathethic. Actually I’ve supported the view that there is a strong religious thread running through Wolfe’s entire canon, and nowhere (in long works) is it stronger than in the Solar Cycle.\nWhat I do not do is make a mockery of it with a hotchpotch of unrelated symbols of every myth, arguments that God is an evil demiurge, and the like. If anyone is a “covert atheist warrior”, it is you. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is nice of you to side with the \"underdog\" btw. That is a caring, sympathetic\nstance. But do be aware that the roles were reversed only a few short years ago. \nAnyone attempting to investigate the deeper structure of these works was quickly \nshouted down by a chorus of Gerry types. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t know what you mean by a “Gerry type”. I wasn’t here. But if by “shouting down” you mean “pointing out problems” I can well imagine it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A heroic effort rescued the board from those days. It was pretty bad. It could \ngo weeks and months without anything of greater substance than notice of \nan article about Wolfe in some SF magazine. If the pendulum swings too far \nin the \"creative\" direction and the board becomes filled with Gerry's greatest \nfear-\"unthought out drivel\", things will swing back. But right now I think there \nis a nice balance of thought and criticism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then why so defensive when I and others criticise ideas? Because we’re good at it? Perhaps what you’d like is a nice little flock of token critics whose objections can easily be brushed aside?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB34A.7030005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8A12.6000307@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 6:40 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\nIn the end of the OBW, the scene where one hypothesis says that\nHorn's soul went into Babbie, I see a possibility of different reading.\nI think the Outsider is involved, and in some sense Silkhorn runs\nto him in the forest LIKE Babbie did (or would) run to himself. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have thought this as well. However, it has nothing to do with plot, \nwhich is what is being worked out here." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB41E.4030704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:39:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8BA2.4090308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 6:46 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSergei SOLOVIEV wrote (22-11-2011 11:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if Horn completely died (departed) in the very end (after\nRemora quoted the lines about Hyacinth), who (he or Silk) wanted\nso much to call Seawrack - and why Silk (if only Silk remains)\ndeparted with her? Did she replace in some way Hyacinth for\nhim? Why did she accept him, instead of Horn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've asked this twice without reply. What's Seawrack doing with a \nRajan than has nothing of Horn in him - neither body nor soul? Yes, I \nknow, there's 'always' 'something' 'left' - but the point is we're \nprecisely discussing whether in the very end there's anything left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've asked the same question, more or less, not really expecting a \nreply. To put it another way: if, say, 10% of a mind is always left \nbehind, is 10% enough?\n\nIs it enough for some things (recognition) and not for others (speaking \nfor humanity). It is probably not an entirely fair question, especially \ntrying to quantify like that, but it needs at least a provisional answer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB4C4.10601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:42:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<37D5DD55897640D2937F3F4309FC3E7E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*From:* James Wynn \nI think people who claim that Seawrack was wrong need to explain why\nWolfe would have her make such a false diagnosis in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To explain why she abandoned Horn in the pit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But to what purpose? To merely emphasize that Horn was knocked really,\nreally unconscious---hard enough to acquire Faerie powers? And Babbie\nwas also really impressed---oh, but they have no medical experience \nwith\nhumans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think he acquired Neighbour-like powers just from being \nknocked out. But that’s beside the point. Horn had to be alone for \ndays to be in such a state that he would betray his family to an \ninhumi. Seawrack deciding he was dead works for this, and also \nindicates something about her, i.e. that she is relatively clueless \nabout such matters, and perhaps also decides too easily that she has \nlost her man.\nAs for Babbie, he actually sees him when he is alive. Horn shuts his \neyes. Unless you think Horn died exactly then, Babbie got it wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "NO. Horn was a spiritless corpse. Babbie was right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But like you say, neither is human even if Seawrack may have been \nonce. Would it be surprising if Horn saw a Neighbour from twenty feet \nand thought he was dead, then later found out he wasn’t?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. So again, humans and Neighbors are exactly the same and you can \nswitch their positions to get really useful answers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB51B.3060804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:43:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMarc Aramini: Don't you remember the literary technique Severian talked about?\nA torturer paid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and\nby positioning them just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree fully, Marc. I have used the old/young woman optical illusion and the\nHouse Absolute/Secret House as analogies for the same principle. It is to no avail\nfor some people. They are exclusionary readers and for them there is one and only\none best answer and once determined, it excludes the possibility of multiple meaning.\n\n\"GREEN is Urth!!!\" (I think that is the proper quote, caps to designate BLUE is not Urth).\nMarc I think you recognize there is metaphorical meaning in that. But you also find\nliteral meaning. Why can't it be both, depending on which perspective you are taking in\nregard to space, time and dreams.\n\nLikewise this pointless debate on whether Horn died in the pit. If there is a tranferrable\nsoul being considered, the definition of death is no longer as cut and tried as we, in\nour world, define it. Why can't Horn be dead in one way of looking at things and not really\ndead from another perspective. Moreover, why can't it be recognized that Wolfe writes in\na way in which both can be true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: As I explain, it is one of many ends. And I think the reading is richer\nif you do not see maximal \"yes\" or maximal \"no\" on any occasion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei, I think you are on the right track. But you are trying to compromise and thus losing\nsomething on both ends. If we are trying to understand our own human existence, the concept\nof yes or no is needed. Either yes, someone is alive or no, they are not. But if we are\ntrying to understand God, that is too limiting. Jesus is both dead AND alive. God is both\nmaximal yes AND maximal no.\n\nThis is what makes Gene Wolfe a special author. He is simultaneously trying to explore\nhuman existence and an understanding of the divine. We shouldn't ignore either one of these. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Osiris was both living AND dead, and that's why he became king of the \nunderworld." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB5F4.6080806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:47:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<8F6CD5495E2C44F89DAB4B3FDE63E1CE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHe gives Krait the key. For all he knew, Krait would fly off with it \nand dine well at Maison Horn.\nIt’s true he did not *think* Krait would do that. But it was still a \nmajor betrayal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, see Marc's and Lee's posts on reading between two simultaneous \ninterpretations.\n\nEver see Rashomon? Ever read \"Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB74B.3020504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:52:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<190D2FF449414EC298872BEF85B2D0C6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*> Gerry Quinn*\n*>>David Stockhoff*\nWe apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when \nshe sees\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "She knows they don’t move if you stick a fork in them. I don’t know\nhow you deduce she knows much more than that. She didn’t get close\nenough to Horn to try him out.\nThere’s no evidence that she has some special corpse-identification\nability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What, because it's not listed next to her name in the character list?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember what I said about silly sarcasm? That’s an example. Tell me \nhow you know she has that ability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, no sarcasm is silly if it gets an extremely stubborn person to \npay a tiny bit of attention. Seawrack tells us. Read the text you adore \nso much. And by the way, YOU invented \"special corpse-identification \nability\" just to be a sarcastic prick. I make no argument for its \nspecialness---the bar is much lower than you pretend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees\n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an\nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question \nserious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like \ntrees, see\nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers\ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through\ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who cares about fairies? We’re talking about Neighbours, not fairies.\nMaybe they have some things in common, but we only know those from our\nknowledge of the Neighbours anyway. The trees, the other dimensions,\nthe extra limbs — these are Neighbour associations. You think Horn has\nacquired a Neighbour soul — you’d expect any changes in his psyche to\nfit with what we know of Neighbours.\nAnd the changes don’t seem to fit fairies much anyway, if it matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've completely backed away abandoned any pretense of discussion on\nthat point. You've left all questions unanswered and just repeat\nyourself. You know nothing of the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You’re making yourself look silly now. It’s one thing to say the \nNeighbours have some Faerie-like aspects. It’s another to refuse to \ndiscuss them unless I pretend they are not Neighbours but fairies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "YOU are refusing to discuss the text. As usual. Because you have no idea \nhow X can \"be\" Y and yet not \"be\" Y in a work of fiction. I can't help \nyou there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wasn’t that much later, after further encounters with the Neighbours?\n[And he was trailblazing through Blue, not Faerie. There are no\nindications he ever went to Faerie. That applies to the Neighbours?\ndimension too, which may be analogous in some ways to Faerie but does\nnot appear identical.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We've already learned you know nothing of Faerie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where did we learn that? And if it were true, why would it matter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Books, books, books, my friend. Read them and come back to the \ndiscussion you have fled because the big kids are using concepts you \ndon't understand." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321973737.85246.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T14:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Purloined Shopping List", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB34B5.1060908@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was an exclamation point after No, no, No! Green is Urth! Two sentences - or a fragment and a sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/21/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: (urth) The Purloined Shopping List\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 21, 2011, 9:35 PM\nOn 11/21/2011 11:00 PM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yet the weirdest accusation was leveled at me today\nwhen Wolfe's\ngrocery list came up today: that I would turn potatoes\ninto a left\nhanded socket wrenches. But Gene DID write me a\nvery simple three\nword sentence that is a noun, a linking verb, and a\npredicate\nnominative, and I, contrary to that accusation, was\nthe only person\nin the universe to take it at face value" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't you overlooking a word?\n\n\nIIRC, it said, \"No, Green is URTH!\"\n\n\nor did it say, \"No Green is URTH!\"\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\nTexarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBB98A.8090205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T15:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<58B90555646F4259AA251B4DB4C66204@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:34 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "paid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and \nby positioning\nthem just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative, \nand I see it\non this board, (until time holds my own severed head up for inspection.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just \ndon’t think the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again you twist others' words to make them appear silly. You don't \neven bother to pretend the level of respect for others that requires you \nto properly quote their ideas. I'm beginning to think you can't help \nit---that you just have no idea of the standards of behavior for adult \nintellectual engagement." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBBB05.6010607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T15:08:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Purloined Shopping List", "in_reply_to": "<1321973737.85246.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (22-11-2011 14:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was an exclamation point after No, no, No! Green is Urth! Two\nsentences - or a fragment and a sentence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we must be precise, it was similar to\n\n No,no, N0!\nGreen is Urth.\n\nNB the second N is not cursive as the first one.\n\n\nI for one take that message very seriously. I just can't understand *how*\nGreen is Urth. I know your theory. But it doesn't make the coins drop for me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T15:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBB98A.8090205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I don't think Marc has said it can't be also metaphorical. \nIt's everybody else who say it can't be also literal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Though it isn't \"everybody else\". I think \nMarc could be right though I don't currently come to the same conclusion as he.\nPerhaps Gene Wolfe will tell us before he passes on (or after?). But that seems\nunlikely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aiui James considers that the definiteness of Horn dying in the pit is \nan important element in itself - not the death, but its definiteness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat is \"definite death\"? The heart and brain have stopped working? The soul is\ndeparted? The soul is departed with no chance of return? The soul is partially\ndeparted and partially there? The soul has found residence in a new body, in part\nor in full? A lot of options for death here.\n \nIIRC, it was Marc who thought Horn was completely gone, and completely replaced by\na Neighbor imitating him while James thinks Horn remains in some manner. In my view,\nby the end, the main narrator is a combination of identities in both body and spirit.\n \nMost people can see at least Horn and Silk there. I see them plus there seems to be\nsomething else. How each one got there is not really a question of much interest for\nme. For me, \"who\" is more than \"how\". So I appreciate James' suggestion of a Neighbor \nto fill the gaps. It works better than anything else and makes a lot of sense to me. \n(especially considering that ring....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it's a fact that in literature sometimes it's important that a thing should be a \ncertain thing and nor other thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed, but are you really going to argue that the death of the narrator is a certain\nand clearly defined event in the Sun Series? How many times and in how many ways does\nSeverian die and become resurrected? (5-6 I think). Yet never does he really THINK he\ndied at the time, even when he sees his own dead body. He is (understandably) in deep \ndenial, not acknowledging his many deaths until the final pages of UotNS.\n \nAs Horn dies (or whatever) \"the Short Sun was burning gold\". You could ignore that as\na not very disguised nod to Severian, the New Sun who died and came back so many times.\nOr you could notice it as such. Just as Horn is obviously in denial of his Silk aspect,\nhe seems (understandably) in denial of his own death, like our other narrator, Severian.\n\nYou can read the story as though Horn is just some guy who gets hurt then gets better.\nAnd you can read the story as a resurrection and soul recombination tale. I see no reason\nwe must restrict it to one and exclude the other. There are material and spiritual ways\nof looking at the world. And we are made of both.\n \nIf intelligent, sound-minded people see that Horn was hurt and then recovered in the pit\nthen that's what happened. If other intelligent, sound-minded people see that he died and\nwas resurrected, that too happened. That is the correct way to undertand art: multi-levelled\nand different when viewed from different perspectives.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBC0FE.9050106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T15:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (22-11-2011 15:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If intelligent, sound-minded people see that Horn was hurt and then\nrecovered in the pit then that's what happened. If other intelligent,\nsound-minded people see that he died and was resurrected, that too\nhappened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there's an intelligent, sound-minded bloke here saying that he died and\nnever came back... and we were left to witness the attempt of a completely \ndifferent entity to fulfill his quest. In a way that's an interesting idea; \nbut it does take away from the theme of Horn-trying-to-be-Silk and \nSilk-trying-to-be-Horn if after all he is neither one nor the other. Nor \ndoes one get the feeling of 'character growing out of his inborn \nlimitations' (*as applied to a Neighbour*) which is present of so much of \nGene Wolfe's work.\n\nThough I'll be the first to agree that there's more in the Rajan than Silks \nand Horn, and the obvious candidate is Neighbourly (and to vastly prefer the \nappellation 'Rajan' over the 'SilkHorn' one).\n\nA big problem in SS is that while the setting is much closer to us than in \nLS - real planets, real people, real societies, real technology, instead of \nthe artificiality of most things aboard the Whorl - there are definitely \ntruly alien elements which we can make little sense of - Babbie, the Mother, \nSeawrack, giant rays, the island of the pit, Neighbours, the Inhumi. In LS \nall is comfortably man-made, albeit 'made'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBC250.6090602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T15:40:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBC0FE.9050106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 10:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nA big problem in SS is that while the setting is much closer to us \nthan in LS - real planets, real people, real societies, real \ntechnology, instead of the artificiality of most things aboard the \nWhorl - there are definitely truly alien elements which we can make \nlittle sense of - Babbie, the Mother, Seawrack, giant rays, the island \nof the pit, Neighbours, the Inhumi. In LS all is comfortably man-made, \nalbeit 'made'. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's absolutely true. Blue especially is deceptively simple." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T16:55:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBC250.6090602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: But there's an intelligent, sound-minded bloke here \nsaying that he (Horn) died and never came back... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. So what to do with that? You can try to discuss the evidence you see that\nHorn is still there. Perhaps he will see that he has missed some things and say \nhe was wrong (heh. how often does THAT happen?). \n \nIf he doesn't change his mind, the question has changed. It is no longer whether\nHorn is gone or not. The question becomes, \"why does Marc think he is gone\". Review\nhis evidence. Perhaps you will see you have missed some things and say you were \nwrong. \n \nBut if neither changes their mind then we have still all benefitted from the dialog.\nWe now all have access to all the relevant evidence that people see and we are free\nto come to our own conclusions based on that full range of evidence.\n \nThe problem comes when some people insist on continuing the argument after this point.\n All the evidence is out there for review but some people still insist that they know \nthe right way to interpret it and that other ways are simply wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A big problem in SS is that while the setting is much closer to us than in \nLS - real planets, real people, real societies, real technology, instead of \nthe artificiality of most things aboard the Whorl - there are definitely \ntruly alien elements which we can make little sense of - Babbie, the Mother, \nSeawrack, giant rays, the island of the pit, Neighbours, the Inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think the whole Sun Series (and Soldier and Wizard/Knight, actually) has a sameness of\nunderlying message. That message does take on a different feel when put into different\npackages but the continuity can be discerned. The relationships between gods, monsters\nand humanity are similar on Earth, Urth, Ushas, Whorl, Green and Blue.\n \nThis does not imply Gerry is completely wrong to focus solely on the package and ignore \nthe inner contents. Consider the creative process: Gene Wolfe's religious and social\nphilosophy are a part of him. He doesn't have to work hard to include them in his stories;\nthey flow easily and naturally from him.\n \nThe real work and effort Wolfe puts into his stories IS in the packaging. Gerry and others\nare quite right to devote the majority of their efforts winnowing out the complex and \ndetailed features of each package. I don't even consider it Gerry's mistake to ignore the\ncontents of the package. His mistake is incessantly telling others there is nothing in the\nbox and making fun of them and calling them names for seeing what is inside.\n \nOf course Gerry is free to use such terms as \"worst theory ever\", \"out to lunch\", \"purile\",\n\"thoughtless\", \"drivel\" etc. But does he have a valid right to complain when others are \noffended by such language and lash back? Nobody else (currently) talks like that. Why \nshould Gerry get a free pass to do so?\n \n*We are represented in here by our ideas*. Disagreement is one thing. Using derrogatory labels \nfor other people's ideas is another. In here, that is a form of personal attack. I join Mo and \nRyan and Antonio in their distaste for it and their denouncement of it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBD9BF.9080100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:19:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8B52.60906@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 5:45 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nPossible, but in the group it is customary to praise each other, and \nit creates a (sometimes\nfalse) impression of the strength of arguments. He tries all the time \nto present an independent\nopinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there is any \"group\". I 've never met any of these \npeople. I feel my arguments have been more systematically critical of \nMarc's Tree Theory as well as his Green Urth theory than anybody. Gerry \nthinks he's done a capital job at it. Maybe you do to. But from where \nI'm standing he's just been insulting and, overall, has done little to \nadvance the discussion or address the problems and weakness in the \ntheories, because he is congenitally incapable of addressing the Flags \nthat are important to the theories. In fact, I suspect nothing has \ncaused ME to want to rally to Marc's theory and find support for it than \nposts like the following:\n\nOn 11/22/2011 7:02 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think in some cases individuals who like to put forward theories with \nnot too strong a basis, and which are very vulnerable to challenge based \non a careful reading of Wolfe's work, find common ground with others who \nput forward different theories with similar problems..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBDACC.3070804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:24:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 7:31 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\n\nAiui James considers that the definiteness of Horn dying in the pit is \nan important element in itself - not the death, but its definiteness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. This is not like the end OBW where Marc believes he detects a \ndeath. The death on Green is not treated this way.\nThe narrator makes a big freakin deal over the moment Horn falls in to \nthe pit. Saying \"Well, there are lots of deaths in this story\" doesn't \ncut it for me. I think this is one of the biggest non-secret secrets in \nWolfe literature. He never waves flags like this. But apparently it \nwasn't enough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBDB3D.2000109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 11:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n*We are represented in here by our ideas*. Disagreement is one thing. Using derrogatory labels\nfor other people's ideas is another. In here, that is a form of personal attack. I join Mo and\nRyan and Antonio in their distaste for it and their denouncement of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too. Arguments should be kept separate from personalities as much as \npossible---in both directions. I don't participate in this list for the \nscintillating personalities." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBDF3F.6090705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBDACC.3070804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 12:24 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/22/2011 7:31 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aiui James considers that the definiteness of Horn dying in the pit \nis an important element in itself - not the death, but its definiteness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. This is not like the end OBW where Marc believes he detects a \ndeath. The death on Green is not treated this way.\nThe narrator makes a big freakin deal over the moment Horn falls in to \nthe pit. Saying \"Well, there are lots of deaths in this story\" doesn't \ncut it for me. I think this is one of the biggest non-secret secrets \nin Wolfe literature. He never waves flags like this. But apparently it \nwasn't enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That \"definiteness\" is an interesting problem. I agree that the narrator \nwaves a big flag about it and that this is a critical aspect of the event.\n\nBut you must also agree that this flag has some fine print---that it \nsubverts itself, it's waved so hard. By this I mean simply that not only \nhas a death occurred---though under rules we do not yet know---but a \nsupernatural event has occurred as well. Horn continues, _in some form_, \nand the story goes on. But note that the story has almost just \nbegun---the reader will be jolted, and will be instructed too. \"Do not \ntrust deaths.\" Much is NOT told here beyond the death itself.\n\nAnd a comparison to the \"death\" at the end of OBW is useful too. I think \nthere is a flag raised here that is much more subtle and there are \nreasons for this. (1) It's been done already and can't be repeated (2) \nthe reader should know now not to trust (3) it's a more natural ending. \nHorn has reached Pajarocu and Rajan has fled Gaon and the personality he \ncultivated there; the book ends. Major shift coming.\n\nI think however the event is much the same: a death has occurred that is \nlargely real although but barely physical---working under rules we do \nnot yet know---but a supernatural event has occurred as well. Horn does \ncontinue _in some form_ but the story changes a bit more than it did \nlast time. In a sense, I argue that this death must be MORE important, \nthough it is accompanied by less vigorous flagwaving. In a way (or \nseveral ways, both narratively and plotwise at least), it was _made \npossible_ by the first death, which was a template for it. Its lack of \ndefinition makes sense to me, since the reader now knows or guesses a \nlittle more about how death works here.\n\nLooking ahead to the NEXT death .... !" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<58B90555646F4259AA251B4DB4C66204@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nA nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just don’t\nthink the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T18:19:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehe-Oakes: I don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNicely put, Dan'l. \n \nI'll mention again the Wolfe video interview on Wizard Knight in which\nGene feels no need to hem and haw and qualify and explain the relationship between \n\"vitally connected\" characters. He says \"the ValFather *is* Odin or Wodin\". Michael\nis the archangel Michael.\n \nI guess as author, he can get away with that. Nobody here is gonna call his ideas about\nhis own work \"puerile crapola\" or whatever. Still, be it Father Inire or Typhon or \nDionysus a lot of time is devoted to explaining what the meaning of \"is\" is.\n \nI don't mind saying \"there is a vital connection\" between Echidna and The Mother or \nThelxiepeia (mythic siren) and Seawrack the first time. But it would be nice if I could\nshorthand it to \"is\" on further elaboration.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECBF0CD.4010109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T18:58:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 1:19 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't mind saying \"there is a vital connection\" between Echidna and \nThe Mother or Thelxiepeia (mythic siren) and Seawrack the first time. \nBut it would be nice if I could shorthand it to \"is\" on further \nelaboration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, we seem to need some notation to bracket and specify some simple \nassociative ideas, like \"is\" but you get tired of doing that. Analyzing \nWolfe requires so many different \"is\" 'es:\n\nSilk is Typhon (genetically)\n\nSand is Silk (personality)\n\nMarble is Rose (er...)\n\nMarble is Maggie (flat-out lying, according to her, as Rose)\n\nKrait is Sinew (by parentage/feeding/relation to Horn)\n\nGreen is Urth (actually, or just metaphorically?)\n\nHorn is a Neighbor (indeterminate)\n\nNeighbors are Faeries (as a literary template)\n\nand on and on .... Funny, not too many actual imposters come to mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC06AB.8050001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:31:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBC0FE.9050106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 9:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nBut there's an intelligent, sound-minded bloke here saying that he \ndied and\nnever came back... and we were left to witness the attempt of a \ncompletely different entity to fulfill his quest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's still a resurrection. But I get your point that the concept \nof the narrator's *identity* is completely subverted by my reading. And \nthat is what is so *Wolfean* about it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC09F2.3060500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:45:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBF0CD.4010109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 12:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nMarble is Maggie (flat-out lying, according to her, as Rose) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have to look at the text you are referring to in context. I think \nyou are getting two names mixed up.\nMarble's name before he was inducted was Magnesia and she takes that \nname on Blue.\nWhen she married Hammerstone, she claimed to be his fiance Moly.\n\nOn Blue, after having left Hammerstone, she says \"It was I, the one who \nprayed, who lied and lied too. I know that must seem illogical, yet it \nwas so.\" I believe that Rose's hands came from a chem who worked at the \nSun Sun St. Mantaion named Molybdenum (Moly). She was dismantled to \nprovide parts for Betel and which eventually went to Rose. The tin box \nin the cenoby attic was her's. So what Marble was saying was \"I lied \nwhen I said I was Moly and I lied when I said I wasn't\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC0A56.207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:47:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC09F2.3060500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 3:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI'd have to look at the text you are referring to in context. I think \nyou are getting two names mixed up.\nMarble's name before he was inducted was Magnesia and she takes that \nname on Blue.\nWhen she married Hammerstone, she claimed to be his fiance Moly.\n\nOn Blue, after having left Hammerstone, she says \"It was I, the one \nwho prayed, who lied and lied too. I know that must seem illogical, \nyet it was so.\" I believe that Rose's hands came from a chem who \nworked at the Sun Sun St. Mantaion named Molybdenum (Moly). She was \ndismantled to provide parts for Betel and which eventually went to \nRose. The tin box in the cenoby attic was her's. So what Marble was \nsaying was \"I lied when I said I was Moly and I lied when I said I \nwasn't\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's right. Moly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC2F8E.4030109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T23:26:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBDF3F.6090705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 11:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut you must also agree that this flag has some fine print---that it \nsubverts itself, it's waved so hard. By this I mean simply that not \nonly has a death occurred---though under rules we do not yet \nknow---but a supernatural event has occurred as well. Horn continues, \n_in some form_, and the story goes on. But note that the story has \nalmost just begun---the reader will be jolted, and will be instructed \ntoo. \"Do not trust deaths.\" Much is NOT told here beyond the death \nitself. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Over and over, the narrator reminds us of what a miserable failure his \nmission was. Thus we know that Horn is not completely gone in the Rajan. \nHis spirit fled when he tumbled in the pit (I say) and his body was \nultimately destroyed on Green. But there is a sense in which he \npersists, like the hyacinth Remora refers to at the end of RttW. We all \nassumed Remora was referring to the Rajan's grief over the death of Hy \n(and maybe the Silk in him was). It is still a strange scene with that \ninterpretation I think. But _I_ think primarily it is the loss of Horn \nwho we are intended to grieve over. A man who set out on a mission and \nfailed at it --hardly before he had begun--by a fluke accident. But by \nsome miraculous method he persisted.\n\nA lot of Wolfe heroes are pre-determined...over-determined...to succeed \nagainst all who stand against them. Severian, Latro, Able. Eventually, \nHorn becomes a character like that. But the original Horn (I say) was \nnot. He was a man with a good, brave heart who was as subject as anyone \nto catastrophic misfortunes. It is a rather hopeful story seen that way." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC538F.1010103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T01:59:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC2F8E.4030109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 6:26 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nA lot of Wolfe heroes are pre-determined...over-determined...to \nsucceed against all who stand against them. Severian, Latro, Able. \nEventually, Horn becomes a character like that. But the original Horn \n(I say) was not. He was a man with a good, brave heart who was as \nsubject as anyone to catastrophic misfortunes. It is a rather hopeful \nstory seen that way. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. He was helped after he set off, not before. He's recursive in a \ndifferent dimension from the others." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322025024.63106.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T05:10:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehe-Oakes: I don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nicely put, Dan'l. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll mention again the Wolfe video interview on Wizard Knight in which\nGene feels no need to hem and haw and qualify and explain the relationship between \n\"vitally connected\" characters. He says \"the ValFather *is* Odin or Wodin\". Michael\nis the archangel Michael.\n\nI guess as author, he can get away with that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. We trust he doesn't say it unless the figures /are/ the same in his mind and not just connected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody here is gonna call his ideas about\nhis own work \"puerile crapola\" or whatever. Still, be it Father Inire or Typhon or \nDionysus a lot of time is devoted to explaining what the meaning of \"is\" is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The solution might be to avoid unusual senses of \"is\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind saying \"there is a vital connection\" between Echidna and The Mother or \nThelxiepeia (mythic siren) and Seawrack the first time. But it would be nice if I could\nshorthand it to \"is\" on further elaboration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say there's a vital connection between Severian and Jesus. But the difference is important to Wolfe and to many readers, including you, if I'm not mistaken. I'm glad people don't shorthand \"Severian echoes Jesus in some ways\" to \"Severian is Jesus\".\n\n\nJery Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECCD4EF.4000907@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-23T11:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322025024.63106.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My feeling is that while in Severian Wolfe investigates a personalty \nthat in some\nways echoes Jesus, in the story of Horn and Silk he explores a \"growth\" \nof a saint\n(from very imperfect \"seeds\").\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehe-Oakes: I don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nicely put, Dan'l. \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll mention again the Wolfe video interview on Wizard Knight in which\nGene feels no need to hem and haw and qualify and explain the relationship between \n\"vitally connected\" characters. He says \"the ValFather *is* Odin or Wodin\". Michael\nis the archangel Michael.\n\nI guess as author, he can get away with that.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. We trust he doesn't say it unless the figures /are/ the same in his mind and not just connected.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nobody here is gonna call his ideas about\nhis own work \"puerile crapola\" or whatever. Still, be it Father Inire or Typhon or \nDionysus a lot of time is devoted to explaining what the meaning of \"is\" is.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The solution might be to avoid unusual senses of \"is\".\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't mind saying \"there is a vital connection\" between Echidna and The Mother or \nThelxiepeia (mythic siren) and Seawrack the first time. But it would be nice if I could\nshorthand it to \"is\" on further elaboration.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd say there's a vital connection between Severian and Jesus. But the difference is important to Wolfe and to many readers, including you, if I'm not mistaken. I'm glad people don't shorthand \"Severian echoes Jesus in some ways\" to \"Severian is Jesus\".\n\n\nJery Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T13:49:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECCD4EF.4000907@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I'd say there's a vital connection between Severian and Jesus. \nI'm glad people don't shorthand \"Severian echoes Jesus in some ways\" to \"Severian \nis Jesus\"...The solution might be to avoid unusual senses of \"is\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it is a point worth mentioning, Jerry. But as you note, I would not be tempted \nto say \"Severian is Jesus\" (nor would anyone else here, I think).\n \nThe problem crops up in trying to describe beings who are plural identities in the \nstory. We have the easiest time of it with Tzadkiel, because we are shown so much of\nhim/her. Still, we are forced to resort to such slashed gender pronouns and descriptors\nsuch as \"mirror book Tzadkiel\", \"fairy Tzadkiel\" and \"hairy blob Zak\", \"caveman Zak\", etc.\nAll the same being yet all significantly different in size, appearance and function.\n \nIt becomes much more difficult to describe other plural beings who are not depicted as\nclearly such as Scylla/Cilinia, Echidna/The Mother, Abaia/undines, Neighbors and Father \nInire (I think). \n\nIt gets even worse when the identity cards get shuffled and redealt as for Typhon/Pas, \nSilk, Horn, and Pig/Babbie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: My feeling is that while in Severian Wolfe investigates a personalty \nthat in some ways echoes Jesus, in the story of Horn and Silk he explores a \"growth\" \nof a saint" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree Sergei, except on one point. All saints are dead. Severian shows no signs of\nbeing able to die. I suspect he never will. He will merely fade away into legend as\nall the other mythological immortals have done. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T13:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECCD4EF.4000907@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2011, at 5:11 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nMy feeling is that while in Severian Wolfe investigates a personalty that in some\nways echoes Jesus, in the story of Horn and Silk he explores a \"growth\" of a saint\n(from very imperfect \"seeds\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Honestly, as my understanding of what is going on SS has developed, I have come to see the echoes in Sev to be of a gnostic Jesus but the echoes in the Rajan to be the more Orthodox version: mediator, divine Incarnate, Trinity..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322059861.39218.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T14:51:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC2F8E.4030109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/22/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 22, 2011, 3:26 PM\nOn 11/22/2011 11:43 AM, David\nStockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But you must also agree that this flag has some fine\nprint---that it subverts itself, it's waved so hard. By this\nI mean simply that not only has a death occurred---though\nunder rules we do not yet know---but a supernatural event\nhas occurred as well. Horn continues, _in some form_, and\nthe story goes on. But note that the story has almost just\nbegun---the reader will be jolted, and will be instructed\ntoo. \"Do not trust deaths.\" Much is NOT told here beyond the\ndeath itself. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Over and over, the narrator reminds us of what a miserable\nfailure his mission was. Thus we know that Horn is not\ncompletely gone in the Rajan. His spirit fled when he\ntumbled in the pit (I say) and his body was ultimately\ndestroyed on Green. But there is a sense in which he\npersists, like the hyacinth Remora refers to at the end of\nRttW. We all assumed Remora was referring to the Rajan's\ngrief over the death of Hy (and maybe the Silk in him was).\nIt is still a strange scene with that interpretation I\nthink. But? _I_ think primarily it is the loss of Horn\nwho we are intended to grieve over. A man who set out on a\nmission and failed at it --hardly before he had begun--by a\nfluke accident. But by some miraculous method he persisted.\n\nA lot of Wolfe heroes are\npre-determined...over-determined...to succeed against all\nwho stand against them. Severian, Latro, Able. Eventually,\nHorn becomes a character like that. But the original Horn (I\nsay) was not. He was a man with a good, brave heart who was\nas subject as anyone to catastrophic misfortunes. It is a\nrather hopeful story seen that way.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You already know my reading of that final symbol: the blood spilled into the ground springs up as vegetable life that endures even though ancient man is dead. And Horn too, really." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322060527.29691.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 5:51 AM\n\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Nov 23, 2011, at 5:11 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My feeling is that while in Severian Wolfe\ninvestigates a personalty that in some\nways echoes Jesus, in the story of Horn and Silk he\nexplores a \"growth\" of a saint\n(from very imperfect \"seeds\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Honestly, as my understanding of what is going on SS has\ndeveloped, I have come to see the echoes in Sev to be of a\ngnostic Jesus but the echoes in the Rajan to be the more\nOrthodox version: mediator, divine Incarnate, Trinity...\n\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my problem with this assessment of Silk is that he has no real power to heal the sick and the dying, as Severian occasionally showed. He can only spiritually abet them - he seems much more like an individual who might become a saint to me than a Jesus. Sergei seems right on the money on that one.\n\nAlso, I know I've said this before, but I really don't like the clone Typhon-Silk because it does complicate the four parents on the aureate path: we CAN identify them if Silk is a son and that fits the details better (assuming the final picture of Silk with his head on Typhon is one of ascension and apotheosis of a son overtaking the demiurge, which actually seems a bit gnostic, no?). The details of the text are also better fitted with Tussah as a being distinct from Typhon, honestly. There are no dream sequences equating them in the way that Mamelta/Hy/Kypris/Chenille are equated. The best evidence for cloning is found in statements like \"Pas grew himself from a seed\" and the idea of a nightside and regular Silk, but the particulars of the text make it much more tenable to identify the parents if we are dealing with a son, which is, as Lemur said, what Typhon wanted to replace him. \n\nOne of us is taking the statement of Tussah's parenthood and subjecting it to misprision. I just really, really, really, no matter how I try, can't read it as you do - I don't think it's even a mysterious statement this particular time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<60CFDDDF3E5B40C981B6FE571D07D829@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBB4C4.10601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAs for Babbie, he actually sees him when he is alive. Horn shuts his \neyes. Unless you think Horn died exactly then, Babbie got it wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "NO. Horn was a spiritless corpse. Babbie was right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A spiritless corpse that can open and close its eyes and remember stuff that happened around it, and next day can sit up and “come back to itself”. I wouldn’t want Babbie for a doctor, he could have me buried if I overslept. \nAlso, if Babbie really is so perspicacious about the presence of absence of spirits, when he defends Horn the next day doesn’t that show it was Horn in Horn’s body, not a Neighbour? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But like you say, neither is human even if Seawrack may have been \nonce. Would it be surprising if Horn saw a Neighbour from twenty feet \nand thought he was dead, then later found out he wasn’t?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see. So again, humans and Neighbors are exactly the same and you can \nswitch their positions to get really useful answers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a symmetry applies. Let me phrase it in more abstract terms: would aliens from different planets typically be expected to be able to identify each other’s state of health with total accuracy from twenty feet?\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3F4888786257455CB454D26DBFBD17DB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:15:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBB5F4.6080806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHe gives Krait the key. For all he knew, Krait would fly off with it \nand dine well at Maison Horn.\nIt’s true he did not *think* Krait would do that. But it was still a \nmajor betrayal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, see Marc's and Lee's posts on reading between two simultaneous \ninterpretations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. Are you saying that there is an interpretation in which he did not give the key to his house to a vampiric alien, explaining when and how best to use it? Or one in which he did do that, but it was not a major betrayal? [Assuming he was Horn, obviously.]\nBecause I’m not seeing that alternative interpretation for this event. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD0FDA.2050900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322060527.29691.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 10:02 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAlso, I know I've said this before, but I really don't like the clone Typhon-Silk because it does complicate the four parents on the aureate path: we CAN identify them if Silk is a son and that fits the details better (assuming the final picture of Silk with his head on Typhon is one of ascension and apotheosis of a son overtaking the demiurge, which actually seems a bit gnostic, no?). The details of the text are also better fitted with Tussah as a being distinct from Typhon, honestly. There are no dream sequences equating them in the way that Mamelta/Hy/Kypris/Chenille are equated. The best evidence for cloning is found in statements like \"Pas grew himself from a seed\" and the idea of a nightside and regular Silk, but the particulars of the text make it much more tenable to identify the parents if we are dealing with a son, which is, as Lemur said, what Typhon wanted to replace him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it impossible to equate a clone with a son? After all, if you or I \ncloned ourselves, we would raise the result as a son. All we'd be doing \nis cutting out the middle, er, middlewoman (at least her genetic \ncontribution). We wouldn't expect this son to be identical to us---he'd \nhave different parents, a different history, scars, everything. Was \nAthena not the daughter of Zeus?\n\nIf this semantic distinction causes such a problem, why not just let it go?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:30:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBB74B.3020504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n*> Gerry Quinn*\n*>>David Stockhoff*\nWe apparently disagree, but Seawrack clearly knows corpses when \nshe sees\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "She knows they don’t move if you stick a fork in them. I don’t know\nhow you deduce she knows much more than that. She didn’t get close\nenough to Horn to try him out.\nThere’s no evidence that she has some special corpse-identification\nability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What, because it's not listed next to her name in the character list?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember what I said about silly sarcasm? That’s an example. Tell me \nhow you know she has that ability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, no sarcasm is silly if it gets an extremely stubborn person to \npay a tiny bit of attention. Seawrack tells us. Read the text you adore \nso much. And by the way, YOU invented \"special corpse-identification \nability\" just to be a sarcastic prick. I make no argument for its \nspecialness---the bar is much lower than you pretend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She tells us she has that ability? I remember her telling us that Horn was dead, and apparently being wrong. I don’t remember her saying she has the ability to unerringly tell when somebody is dead, from twenty feet. \nI wasn’t being sarcastic when I referred to a “special corpse-identification ability”. I was paraphrasing your assertion that she “clearly knows corpses when she sees them” in the context of the situation in which she supposedly knew (and was, at least ostensibly, proved completely wrong)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "You've been going on about Faerie. Everyone agrees they like trees\n(Mark thinks they ARE trees). The Neighbours seem to live in an\nadjacent dimension. They have eight limbs. Is your question \nserious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Where is the evidence that people who hang with fairies like \ntrees, see\nother dimensions, and feel like limbs are missing? The page numbers\ndon't need to be in BSS. I have read about Faerie from age 7 through\ngraduate school and these are not familiar to me. Show me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Who cares about fairies? We’re talking about Neighbours, not fairies.\nMaybe they have some things in common, but we only know those from our\nknowledge of the Neighbours anyway. The trees, the other dimensions,\nthe extra limbs — these are Neighbour associations. You think Horn has\nacquired a Neighbour soul — you’d expect any changes in his psyche to\nfit with what we know of Neighbours.\nAnd the changes don’t seem to fit fairies much anyway, if it matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've completely backed away abandoned any pretense of discussion on\nthat point. You've left all questions unanswered and just repeat\nyourself. You know nothing of the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You’re making yourself look silly now. It’s one thing to say the \nNeighbours have some Faerie-like aspects. It’s another to refuse to \ndiscuss them unless I pretend they are not Neighbours but fairies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "YOU are refusing to discuss the text. As usual. Because you have no idea \nhow X can \"be\" Y and yet not \"be\" Y in a work of fiction. I can't help \nyou there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are really getting off on Lee’s latest mantra about how two plus two can really be five. There are Neighbours in the books, not fairies. If they share certain characteristics with fairies like interdimensionality and an affinity for trees, well and good. I’ll discuss those characteristics in context. I will also mention characteristics they don’t share with most fairies, like having eight limbs (yes, there are probably some eight-legged goblins in legend somewhere, but does that get us anywhere?:).\n\nVery well then. Fairies have wings. Horn doesn’t feel he is missing his wings either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wasn’t that much later, after further encounters with the Neighbours?\n[And he was trailblazing through Blue, not Faerie. There are no\nindications he ever went to Faerie. That applies to the Neighbours?\ndimension too, which may be analogous in some ways to Faerie but does\nnot appear identical.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We've already learned you know nothing of Faerie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where did we learn that? And if it were true, why would it matter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Books, books, books, my friend. Read them and come back to the \ndiscussion you have fled because the big kids are using concepts you \ndon't understand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only word that has any application there is “kids”.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2ED31D655AD7474FBFA57A44F191A17A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:35:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECBB98A.8090205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 8:34 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "paid by one side to make it quick, the other to make it painful, and \nby positioning\nthem just right, he succeeds - thus does Wolfe speak of narrative, \nand I see it\non this board, (until time holds my own severed head up for inspection.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just \ndon’t think the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again you twist others' words to make them appear silly. You don't \neven bother to pretend the level of respect for others that requires you \nto properly quote their ideas. I'm beginning to think you can't help \nit---that you just have no idea of the standards of behavior for adult \nintellectual engagement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc has repeatedly asserted that a staff made from a liana on Blue is an inhumu, and that lianas on Green are also inhumi. And things that are even less biologically plausible. I’m twisting nothing, just pointing out that Marc’s theory has aspects that I find difficult to make compatible with the ostensibly reptilian nature of the inhumi. \n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:41:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just don’t\nthink the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I’ll feel the same when I complete my re-read. Right now I don’t see anything but metaphor — lianas prey on trees as inhumi prey on people and Neighbours. \nThere’s a puzzle here if you think there is a biological connection, though. Lianas exist on both planets, and presumably always did, though I suppose one could make a theory that the lianas arrived on Blue at the same time as the inhumi, and the Neighbours just failed to mention it. So why don’t they develop into inhumi on Blue?\nAlso, Quetzal had a tree in his garden. Not a liana.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD2813.6020603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:06:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322060527.29691.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Honestly, as my understanding of what is going on SS has\ndeveloped, I have come to see the echoes in Sev to be of a\ngnostic Jesus but the echoes in the Rajan to be the more\nOrthodox version: mediator, divine Incarnate, Trinity..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell, my problem with this assessment of Silk is that he has no real power to heal the sick and the dying, as Severian occasionally showed. He can only spiritually abet them [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in Severian Wolfe doesn't deal with the Incarnation. He doesn't \npresent an example of a Trinity...how Three can be separate but One. The \nconcept of resurrection is much more closely paralleled with that of \nJesus (even Gerry recognizes the Three Days In the Grave incidence). \nWith the Rajan, Wolfe is providing placing a Christ-figure in a \ndifferent sense. To a much greater extent than with Severian, Horn dies \nso that mankind can live. And after all, saints heal as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I know I've said this before, but I really don't like the clone Typhon-Silk because it does complicate the four parents on the aureate path:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you know, I had my own reasons for not liking Silk as Typhon's clone. \nBut even when I was strongly arguing that Silk was /surely/ a clone of \nTyphon's son, I recognized that there were a /lot/ of hints equating \nthem both as the Big Man himself. Ultimately, I have to go where the \ntext leads and if that makes the scene on the Aureate path a mystery? \nWell, it was a bit of a mystery already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "we CAN identify them if Silk is a son and that fits the details better (assuming the final picture of Silk with his head on Typhon is one of ascension and apotheosis of a son overtaking the demiurge, which actually seems a bit gnostic, no?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alas! Were that the only hint that Silk and Typhon are equated. Silk as \nTyphon's son works well in a lot of ways. In a few ways it breaks down. \nSilk as Typhon works in a lot of ways, bringing in references that the \nSon Theory has to ignore. Ultimately, I think it is better. It does make \nthe Aureate Path scene problematic. Incidentally, what role, if any, \ndoes Quetzal play in Silk's resurrection?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The details of the text are also better fitted with Tussah as a being distinct from Typhon, honestly. There are no dream sequences equating them in the way that Mamelta/Hy/Kypris/Chenille are equated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, having accepted that Silk is /merely/ a clone of Typhon (rather \nthan in someone both a clone and a son) I admit that there is just no \nway Tussah can be equated to Typhon. The assertion that Silk is Tussah's \nson entirely and solely by mere adoption is B.S., I think. I could fudge \nthings by saying that Tussah was wholly possessed by Typhon when he said \nthat, and that the gods engineered his death for that reason--that \nworks. I'm not entirely satisfied that that is the answer but it works.\n\nOn the other hand....hmmm....I'm going to start a new thread on this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD2875.5080008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heirax is dead", "in_reply_to": "<1322060527.29691.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This post is kind of a backsliding from my rejection of Silk As \nTyphon's Son in favor of Silk As Typhon.\nThey still could BOTH be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 9:02 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe best evidence for cloning is found in statements like \"Pas grew himself from a seed\" and the idea of a nightside and regular Silk, but the particulars of the text make it much more tenable to identify the parents if we are dealing with a son, which is, as Lemur said, what Typhon wanted to replace him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon /had/ such a son...whoever was the original Hierax. Lemur claims \nthat he was \"so\" like his father in every way.\nSuppose that Typhon, wearying of trying to produce a suitable male heir, \nhad himself cloned? Suppose that Silk is a clone of that clone.\n\nThere is a scene in RttW in which is it stated that Hierax is \"dead\" -- \nthat he has been entirely wiped from the Mainframe and\nIt has always struck me that the scene is intentionally suggestive.\n\n ************************\n [Rajan says,] \"You know, just as Pig and I do, what was said\n earlier; and we're none of us children. For an augur to die before\n his Sacred Window, and particularly for him to die by a steel blade\n as sacrifices die, is a great honor. It is the death every augur\n yearns for. I don't intend to imply that it isn't wrong to kill an\n augur under those circumstances; but when an augur dies in such a\n manner, other augurs and many pious laymen must wonder whether that\n death was not arranged by Hierax, as a reward.\"\n\n Pig said, \"Hierax is dead.\"\n\n Hound stared at him.\n\n [Rajan says] \"I see. I didn't know that, though I surmised that it\n might be the case. No doubt it's for the best.\"\n\n RttW, chpt 10, Through Quadifon's Door\n ******************\n\nThe reason that I have always considered the scene suggestive is that \nEchidna and Scylla have also been wiped. Everyone directly involved in \nPas's murder is on the lam. Why is it supposedly so shocking that Hierax \nis dead?\nWell, it is significant that the body of one of the people standing \nthere has also died.\n\nOf course, the implication of this theory is that one of the mothers on \nthe Aureate path is Echidna." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:14:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD2813.6020603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There’s a puzzle here if you think there is a biological connection, \nthough. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps it would help (help you stop arguing with Marc) if you just consider it a \nspiritual connection and stop dwelling on the biology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lianas exist on both planets, and presumably always did, though I suppose \none could make a theory that the lianas arrived on Blue at the same time as the \ninhumi, and the Neighbours just failed to mention it. So why don’t they develop \ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't. Are we shown any means by which\ninhumi get to Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Quetzal had a tree in his garden. Not a liana." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't gardens supposed to provide a food source? Why would it have a liana?\nAnd if it did previously have one on that tree, perhaps it is gone because it \nturned into Quetzal ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Lianas exist on both planets, ...So why don’t they develop\ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we are told pretty directly that they (inhumi) can only breed on Green." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:34:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: You are really getting off on Lee’s latest mantra about how two \nplus two can really be five." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, I don't remember that. Did I ever repeat that phrase over and over, \n\"2+2=5 ommm... 2+2=5 omm...\".\n \nDon't you maintain a website of math puzzles Gerry? If so I can understand\nthat comment a bit better and your approach to interpreting Gene Wolfe. I\nhate to use cliches like \"to a hammer, every problem looks like a nail\" but\nif the shoe fits..;- ).\n \nJust for fun, I'm wondering which mathematical function would be used to solve\nthe problem: \"How many people is Tzadkiel?\". Addition? Division? Let me know \nif there is an answer. I am interested. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJust for fun, I'm wondering which mathematical function would be used to solve\nthe problem: \"How many people is Tzadkiel?\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alternatively, how many people ARE Tzadkiel? A very different question..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD2F7F.2080404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:38:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:28 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Lianas exist on both planets, ...So why don’t they develop\ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, we are told pretty directly that they (inhumi) can only breed on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "VERY directly. Blue is not warm enough for ... their seeds to hatch? \neggs to sprout?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD3020.5060402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:40:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:37 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just for fun, I'm wondering which mathematical function would be used to solve\nthe problem: \"How many people is Tzadkiel?\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alternatively, how many people ARE Tzadkiel? A very different question..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think his nickname was \"Legion\" in middle school." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD30D4.7080306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:43:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 11/22/2011 11:45 AM," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just don’t\nthink the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me take another shot at their connection (although I don't think I'm \nthere yet):\n\nThe Neighbors are trees. Not like the Ents of Tolkien. They are like \ndryads. As their bodies sleep (particularly in the winter) they \ndream-travel in the form that \"Horn\" encounters them during his meeting \nand in the pit. In that form, they built cities and technology and \ntraveled to Green, bearing their seeds with them. If a Neighbor dies in \ndream-travel, the same thing happens as happens for humans. Their soul \nis dead but their body lives on. A tree body can grow for hundreds of \nyears and (presumably) reproduce without a soul. Perhaps their children \nhave no souls as well. On Green they encountered inhumi who fed on them. \nTheir children are ensouled by Neighbors. Now what will such a being do? \nPerhaps they will lay in wait for a Neighbor to come along, but in the \nmeantime, they will not disguise themselves with makeup and old clothes. \nInstead, they assume a woody form as they go without food, leaning on \nthe Neighbors sleeping bodies.\n\nThere is a problem with this model: It is suggested that the Rajan needs \nan inhumi to dream-travel. That's why he needs his staff. On the other \nhand, maybe that isn't the case." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:44:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD3020.5060402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think his [Tzadkiel's] nickname was \"Legion\" in middle school." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he was voted most likely two?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD30D4.7080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThere is a problem with this model: It is suggested that the Rajan needs an\ninhumi to dream-travel. That's why he needs his staff. On the other hand,\nmaybe that isn't the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that I'm buying this model, but that problem is easily overcome.\nSilk/the Rajan constantly underestimates himself. He _believes_ that\nhe needs an inhumu to dream-travel, but he doesn't really." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:50:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heirax is dead", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD2875.5080008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Return to the Whorl\n\nFrom: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pig said, ?Hierax is dead. \nHound stared at him. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Rajan says] ?I see. I didn’t know that, though I surmised that it might be the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "case. No doubt it’s for the best." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reason that I have always considered the scene suggestive is that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Echidna and Scylla have also been wiped. Everyone directly involved in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas's murder is on the lam. Why is it supposedly so shocking that Hierax " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is dead? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hound appears surprised, but he’s a shopkeeper and not religious.\n\nHorn doesn’t seem all that shocked.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322070795.4379.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heirax is dead", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD2875.5080008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Heirax is dead\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 9:08 AM\n\n\n\nThis? post is kind of a backsliding from my rejection of Silk As Typhon's Son in favor of Silk As Typhon. \nThey still could BOTH be true.\n\n\nOn 11/23/2011 9:02 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe best evidence for cloning is found in statements like \"Pas grew himself from a seed\" and the idea of a nightside and regular Silk, but the particulars of the text make it much more tenable to identify the parents if we are dealing with a son, which is, as Lemur said, what Typhon wanted to replace him.\nTyphon /had/ such a son...whoever was the original Hierax. Lemur claims that he was \"so\" like his father in every way. \nSuppose that Typhon, wearying of trying to produce a suitable male heir, had himself cloned? Suppose that Silk is a clone of that clone. \n\nThere is a scene in RttW in which is it stated that Hierax is \"dead\" -- that he has been entirely wiped from the Mainframe and \nIt has always struck me that the scene is intentionally suggestive.\n\n\n************************\n[Rajan says,] \"You know, just as Pig and I do, what was said earlier; and we’re none of us children. For an augur to die before his Sacred Window, and particularly for him to die by a steel blade as sacrifices die, is a great honor. It is the death every augur yearns for. I don’t intend to imply that it isn’t wrong to kill an augur under those circumstances; but when an augur dies in such a manner, other augurs and many pious laymen must wonder whether that death was not arranged by Hierax, as a reward. \nPig said, ?Hierax is dead. \nHound stared at him. \n[Rajan says] ?I see. I didn’t know that, though I surmised that it might be the case. No doubt it’s for the best.\nRttW, chpt 10, Through Quadifon's Door\n******************\n\nThe reason that I have always considered the scene suggestive is that Echidna and Scylla have also been wiped. Everyone directly involved in Pas's murder is on the lam. Why is it supposedly so shocking that Hierax is dead? \nWell, it is significant that the body of one of the people standing there has also died.\n\nOf course, the implication of this theory is that one of the mothers on the Aureate path is Echidna.\n\n\nYou remember that blind guy who reminds Horn of Auk that he kills in the purging of the sewer on Green? (or maybe he's swept away, I need to recheck -can't remember how that scene ends)? I always thought maybe that somehow had some connection to the death of Hierax, because it WASN'T Auk, as far as I remember." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322071109.13763.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My theory accounts for the fact that the recombinatorial power of the trees is incompletely bequeathed to their parasites, the lianas. They make a more degenerate race, but the trees would still be \"the parents\" (Quetzal ponders that man has climbed up the tree in a myth in Long Sun, he just hasn't climbed down yet - this could be a double symbol for the whorl and for mankind's future state) \n\nWithout human blood, the lianas that feed on reptillian life would be reptillian: they are like what they eat. Remember the war between the laurel and the vines mentioned in Empires of Foliage and Flower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 9:14 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There’s a puzzle here if you think there\nis a biological connection, \nthough. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nPerhaps it would help (help you stop arguing with Marc) if\nyou just consider it a \nspiritual connection and stop dwelling on the biology.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lianas exist on both planets, and presumably always\ndid, though I suppose \none could make a theory that the lianas arrived on Blue\nat the same time as the \ninhumi, and the Neighbours just failed to mention\nit. So why don’t they develop \ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't. Are we\nshown any means by which\ninhumi get to Blue?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, Quetzal had a tree in his garden. Not a\nliana." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't gardens supposed to provide a food source? Why would\nit have a liana?\nAnd if it did previously have one on that tree, perhaps it\nis gone because it \nturned into Quetzal ;- ). ???\n????????\n?????? ???\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322071310.99316.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:01:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heirax is dead", "in_reply_to": "<1322070795.4379.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The format got screwed up on the bottom, the part that is the second to last paragraph was not what I wrote, sorry. Also, I think I confused Hierax and tartaros, so sorry.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Heirax is dead\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 9:53 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Heirax is dead\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 9:08 AM\n\n\n\nThis? post is kind of a backsliding from my rejection of Silk As Typhon's Son in favor of Silk As Typhon. \nThey still could BOTH be true.\n\n\nOn 11/23/2011 9:02 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe best evidence for cloning is found in statements like \"Pas grew himself from a seed\" and the idea of a nightside and regular Silk, but the particulars of the text make it much more tenable to identify the parents if we are dealing with a son, which is, as Lemur said, what Typhon wanted to replace him.\nTyphon /had/ such a son...whoever was the original Hierax. Lemur claims that he was \"so\" like his father in every way. \nSuppose that Typhon, wearying of trying to produce a suitable male heir, had himself cloned? Suppose that Silk is a clone of that clone. \n\nThere is a scene in RttW in which is it stated that Hierax is \"dead\" -- that he has been entirely wiped from the Mainframe and \nIt has always struck me that the scene is intentionally suggestive.\n\n\n************************\n[Rajan says,] \"You know, just as Pig and I do, what was said earlier; and we’re none of us children. For an augur to die before his Sacred Window, and particularly for him to die by a steel blade as sacrifices die, is a great honor. It is the death every augur yearns for. I don’t intend to imply that it isn’t wrong to kill an augur under those circumstances; but when an augur dies in such a manner, other augurs and many pious laymen must wonder whether that death was not arranged by Hierax, as a reward. \nPig said, ?Hierax is dead. \nHound stared at him. \n[Rajan says] ?I see. I didn’t know that, though I surmised that it might be the case. No doubt it’s for the best. \nRttW, chpt 10, Through Quadifon's Door\n******************\n\nThe reason that I have always considered the scene suggestive is that Echidna and Scylla have also been wiped. Everyone directly involved in Pas's murder is on the lam. Why is it supposedly so shocking that Hierax is dead? \nWell, it is significant that the body of one of the people standing there has also died.\n\nOf course, the implication of this theory is that one of the mothers on the Aureate path is Echidna.\n\n\n\nYou remember that blind guy who reminds Horn of Auk that he kills in the purging of the sewer on Green? (or maybe he's swept away, I need to recheck -can't remember how that scene ends)? I always thought maybe that somehow had some connection to the death of Hierax, because it WASN'T Auk, as far as I remember.\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD357C.4000900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:03:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECB8BA2.4090308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 5:46 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI've asked this twice without reply. \nWhat's Seawrack doing with a Rajan than has nothing of Horn in him - \nneither body nor soul?\nYes, I know, there's 'always' 'something' 'left' - but the point is \nwe're precisely discussing whether in the very end there's anything left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In order to answer this question, we'd really have to know what the \npurpose in sending Seawrack was in the first place.\nWas her purpose solely for Horn? Did Mother decide Horn was a \n\"worshipper\" because he killed that pirate woman and caused her to be \ndumped in the water?\n\nI think it is significant that the Narrator does not reconnect with \nSeawrack in his non-Horn body until the end when the Rajan returns to \nthe Whorl with Marble, Nettle, and Seawrack. (and Oreb, of course). Of \ncourse, I'm not sure what the reconnection means any more than I know \nwhat the separation means." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD357C.4000900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, we are told pretty directly that they (inhumi) can only breed on Green.\nVERY directly. Blue is not warm enough for ... their seeds to hatch? eggs to sprout?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps not enough shallow swampy water for those eggs and their external fertilization\nmethod either. But..that is for the reptilian form of inhumi. At the end of RttW, there is \na whole swarm of Inhumi flying around. Where did they come from?\n \nHappily, Gerry has pointed out that lianas do grow on Blue. So there it is. Support from\nGerry for the biological basis of Marc and James' liana theory. It is such a pleasure to \nsee the kids playing together so nicely. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FDC5C0ABC4547EC86E1EF779D7BFFF9@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:08:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There’s a puzzle here if you think there is a biological connection, \nthough. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it would help (help you stop arguing with Marc) if you just consider it a \nspiritual connection and stop dwelling on the biology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Marc proposes a spiritual, non-biological connection, I’m perfectly willing to discuss that. But that’s not what he’s been proposing so far.\n\nFor that matter, I haven’t been all that active in discussing Marc’s theories. But when I do, I do him the honour of discussing the theories he actually puts forward, and not some alternative, selected by you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lianas exist on both planets, and presumably always did, though I suppose \none could make a theory that the lianas arrived on Blue at the same time as the \ninhumi, and the Neighbours just failed to mention it. So why don’t they develop \ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't. Are we shown any means by which\ninhumi get to Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We’re told they fly. You are correct in that it is conceivable that they cannot (and would sit better with known laws of physics), and lie about it. It is puzzling, if so, that their numbers appear to increase at conjunction, but perhaps they are more active then. Horn himself says something about many or most of them staying over between conjunctions.\n\nThere are further problems, though. We are also told baby inhumi need certain life forms that are only found in pools on Green. And that’s plausible because they do appear to originate on Green.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322071905.19520.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:11:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7FDC5C0ABC4547EC86E1EF779D7BFFF9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And don't forget Juganu's or some other inhumi's truimphant \"We are everywhere!\" after going to Urth. I am sure they ARE native to Green.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 10:08 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There’s a puzzle here if you think there is a biological connection, \nthough. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it would help (help you stop arguing with Marc) if you just consider it a \nspiritual connection and stop dwelling on the biology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Marc proposes a spiritual, non-biological connection, I’m perfectly willing to discuss that. But that’s not what he’s been proposing so far.\n\nFor that matter, I haven’t been all that active in discussing Marc’s theories. But when I do, I do him the honour of discussing the theories he actually puts forward, and not some alternative, selected by you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lianas exist on both planets, and presumably always did, though I suppose \none could make a theory that the lianas arrived on Blue at the same time as the \ninhumi, and the Neighbours just failed to mention it. So why don’t they develop \ninto inhumi on Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they do. I see no evidence that they don't. Are we shown any means by which\ninhumi get to Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We’re told they fly. You are correct in that it is conceivable that they cannot (and would sit better with known laws of physics), and lie about it. It is puzzling, if so, that their numbers appear to increase at conjunction, but perhaps they are more active then. Horn himself says something about many or most of them staying over between conjunctions.\n\nThere are further problems, though. We are also told baby inhumi need certain life forms that are only found in pools on Green. And that’s plausible because they do appear to originate on Green.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD3783.6050102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<7FDC5C0ABC4547EC86E1EF779D7BFFF9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:08 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFor that matter, I haven't been all that active in discussing Marc's \ntheories. But when I do, I do him the honour of discussing the \ntheories he actually puts forward, and not some alternative, selected \nby you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have more unrecorded thoughts at this point. Yet, they are still \ndiscernible to the to careful reader I think." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9A4FDB7908C3417F976003976A795507@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:14:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, we are told pretty directly that they (inhumi) can only breed on Green.\nVERY directly. Blue is not warm enough for ... their seeds to hatch? eggs to sprout?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps not enough shallow swampy water for those eggs and their external fertilization\nmethod either. But..that is for the reptilian form of inhumi. At the end of RttW, there is \na whole swarm of Inhumi flying around. Where did they come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it conjunction yet? It can’t be far away.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:17:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nAt the end of RttW, there is\na whole swarm of Inhumi flying around. Where did they come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Green?\n\nI know that there is a theory floating about that their claim to fly\nbetween the worlds is a lie, but they _do_ tend to appear in great\nnumbers during conjunction." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:33:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the end of RttW, there is\na whole swarm of Inhumi flying around. Where did they come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Green? I know that there is a theory floating about \nthat their claim to fly between the worlds is a lie, but they _do_ tend to \nappear in great numbers during conjunction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWolfe is playing tricks on us here. If inhumi can survive being buried \nunderground for months or years, perhaps they can survive the void. But\nif they are killed merely by the cold of snow, they can't. Since it is\nis too cold for their eggs to hatch on Blue, I tend to believe that cold\ndoes them in, and their space travel is a lie.\n \nMoreover, in every conversation we hear, for every inhumu, Wolfe makes it\nclear that they are reflexively, inherently liars. I don't and never have\nthought they really fly through space.\n \nMore moreover, we are told there is a deep, hidden secret of the inhumi. That\ntheir essence is of whatever they feed upon is simply too banal. Plus that\nsecret is given to us. It makes sense that there is another inhumi secret\nthat we must figure out for ourselves.\n \nI think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If inhumi are increasing in \nnumbers on Blue without egg hatching or space travel, the secret may well\nbe that inhumi are, at their most basic essence, lianas. Gerry's notice of\na tree in Quetzal's garden only lends further support to this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:39:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWolfe is playing tricks on us here. If inhumi can survive being buried\nunderground for months or years, perhaps they can survive the void. But\nif they are killed merely by the cold of snow, they can't. Since it is\nis too cold for their eggs to hatch on Blue, I tend to believe that cold\ndoes them in, and their space travel is a lie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many animals can live in conditions where their eggs can't successfully hatch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, in every conversation we hear, for every inhumu, Wolfe makes it\nclear that they are reflexively, inherently liars. I don't and never have\nthought they really fly through space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How, then, do you account for their appearance in great numbers at conjunction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More moreover, we are told there is a deep, hidden secret of the inhumi. That\ntheir essence is of whatever they feed upon is simply too banal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. I think that it is much deeper than you're giving credit\nfor; it is of the essence of Wolfe's frequent theme that you become\nwhat you pretend to be. In the case of the inhumi, they pretend to be\nwhat they are becoming." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus that\nsecret is given to us. It makes sense that there is another inhumi secret\nthat we must figure out for ourselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because we want there to be something else? Or because the text\nindicates that there must be one? If so, where does it do so?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If inhumi are increasing in\nnumbers on Blue without egg hatching or space travel, the secret may well\nbe that inhumi are, at their most basic essence, lianas. Gerry's notice of\na tree in Quetzal's garden only lends further support to this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because, God knows, a tree is an unusual thing to find in a garden..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD45F6.6030905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:39 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If inhumi are increasing in\n numbers on Blue without egg hatching or space travel, the secret may well\n be that inhumi are, at their most basic essence, lianas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the inhumi /become/ \nvines by feeding Neighbors. I really doubt they started out that way. \nThe lianna inhumi are on Blue for the same reason other inhumi are on \nBlue and by the same method.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other method." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD462A.5060508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:14:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD45F6.6030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 1:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 12:39 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If inhumi are \nincreasing in\n numbers on Blue without egg hatching or space travel, the secret \nmay well\n be that inhumi are, at their most basic essence, lianas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the inhumi /become/ \nvines by feeding Neighbors. I really doubt they started out that way. \nThe lianna inhumi are on Blue for the same reason other inhumi are on \nBlue and by the same method.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other method." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, not Dan'l, sent this original message. Sorry Dan'l." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD462A.5060508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tend to believe that cold does them in, and their space travel is a lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Many animals can live in conditions where their eggs can't \nsuccessfully hatch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow? Plus, if inhumi are feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. How could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen and all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)\n \nWe are given the choice on whether to believe the words of liars about a biological \nimpossibility or to accept that liars are lying. It is a choice, but I think\nthis time we are expected to choose correctly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How, then, do you account for their appearance in great numbers at conjunction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis seems an easy one. Plant and animal sprouting and migrations are usually\nprompted by celestial events involving the sun and moon. It would make a lot\nof sense for inhumi vines to sprout or inhumi animals to fly based on Green's\nactivities. Doesn't Green function as something of a moon for Blue?\n \nMoreover aren't mythical creatures like vampires and werewolves also deeply affected\nby the moon?\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD45F6.6030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI have proposed that the inhumi /become/ vines\nby feeding Neighbors. I really doubt they started out that way. The lianna\ninhumi are on Blue for the same reason other inhumi are on Blue and by the\nsame method.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other method." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, let's see if I can summarize this correctly. You believe that\n\n(a) the Neighbors are sentient trees native to Blue, who can astrally\nproject into the form the Narrator meets;\n(b) the inhumi are not-natively-sentient reptiles or amphibians native\nto Green, who take on the nature of what they feed on (at least in\ntheir offspring);\n(c) because they fed on Neighbors, who are trees, the inhumi \"take on\"\na sort of tree-ishness and become lianas.\n\nIs that correct?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD48A2.70207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD30D4.7080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/22/2011 11:45 AM,\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A nice metaphor — but I’m not trying to torture you, Marc. I just \ndon’t\nthink the books support the notion that inhumi are vegetables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI don't know whether the inhumi _are_ the lianas or not, but I think\nit's beyond clear that there is _some_ vital connection between them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me take another shot at their connection (although I don't think \nI'm there yet):\n\nThe Neighbors are trees. Not like the Ents of Tolkien. They are like \ndryads. As their bodies sleep (particularly in the winter) they \ndream-travel in the form that \"Horn\" encounters them during his \nmeeting and in the pit. In that form, they built cities and technology \nand traveled to Green, bearing their seeds with them. If a Neighbor \ndies in dream-travel, the same thing happens as happens for humans. \nTheir soul is dead but their body lives on. A tree body can grow for \nhundreds of years and (presumably) reproduce without a soul. Perhaps \ntheir children have no souls as well. On Green they encountered inhumi \nwho fed on them. Their children are ensouled by Neighbors. Now what \nwill such a being do? Perhaps they will lay in wait for a Neighbor to \ncome along, but in the meantime, they will not disguise themselves \nwith makeup and old clothes. Instead, they assume a woody form as they \ngo without food, leaning on the Neighbors sleeping bodies.\n\nThere is a problem with this model: It is suggested that the Rajan \nneeds an inhumi to dream-travel. That's why he needs his staff. On the \nother hand, maybe that isn't the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neighbors and Incanto's tale:\n\nWhen Horn clears the sewer, is that his real body or a dream one?\n\nI note the Neighbor tells him during that episode that there are two of \nhim: I assume Horn and Neighbor. Is that right?\n\nThe narrator seems to make up things Horn would not likely do, like pray \nat the Vanished Goddess's altar. Is that right?\n\nFinally, Incanto recalls a dream in which he (Horn) is in the pit. When \nhe wakes, he is in his father's shop. Do you make sense of that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD48C6.4070706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 12:44 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think his [Tzadkiel's] nickname was \"Legion\" in middle school." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And he was voted most likely two?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aaaarrgh!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD49B1.60609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, let's see if I can summarize this correctly. You believe that\n\n(a) the Neighbors are sentient trees native to Blue, who can astrally\nproject into the form the Narrator meets;\n\n(b) the inhumi are not-natively-sentient reptiles or amphibians native\nto Green, who take on the nature of what they feed on (at least in\ntheir offspring);\n\n(c) because they fed on Neighbors, who are trees, the inhumi \"take on\"\na sort of tree-ishness and become lianas.\n\nIs that correct?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely correct except that \"reptile\" is an analogy. One should not \nassume a true reptile nature.\n\nAs the Rajan says:\n\"These people, like people everywhere here, seem to fear that an inhumu \nmay live on even with its head severed. That is not the case, of course; \nbut I cannot help wondering how the superstition originated and became \nso widespread. Certainly the inhumi have no bones as we understand them. \nPossibly their skeletons are cartilage, as those of some sea-creatures \nare. On Green, Geier maintained that the inhumi are akin to slugs and \nleeches. No one, I believe, took him seriously; yet it is certain that \nonce dead they decay very quickly, though they are difficult to kill and \ncan survive for weeks and even months without the blood that is their \nonly food. \"\n~ OBW chapter 4\n\nAdditionally, the Rajan notes that there is a general belief that inhumi \ncan survive even after decapitation. He asserts that this is not true, \nbut ponders how it came to be so generally believed. This might be \nreference to the Rajan's lianna staff that (it is implied) is still \nsentient. Additionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are \nburning liannas." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD4A89.1070501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:33:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 1:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If inhumi are increasing in\nnumbers on Blue without egg hatching or space travel, the secret may well\nbe that inhumi are, at their most basic essence, lianas. Gerry's notice of\na tree in Quetzal's garden only lends further support to this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And it explains the fires on the plain on Blue's western continent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD4BA0.4000608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:38:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow? Plus, if inhumi are feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. How could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen and all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insects and plants have all sort of tricks to fight the cold, including \nantifreezes and allowing themselves to be covered with ice. Since we \nknow they can't fly through the void (no air) they may simply launch \nthemselves and drift until they fall.\n\nThen, of course, they have potentially burning up to contend with." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD4D09.8090609@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:44:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD4BA0.4000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a serious objection to the theory of Neighbours as trees is that \nthey like\nfires. Trees should not like fires ...\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 2:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow? Plus, if inhumi \nare feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. \nHow could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen \nand all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Insects and plants have all sort of tricks to fight the cold, \nincluding antifreezes and allowing themselves to be covered with ice. \nSince we know they can't fly through the void (no air) they may simply \nlaunch themselves and drift until they fall.\n\nThen, of course, they have potentially burning up to contend with.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1E0B2B0CE4B344BD9D7F1E05DBD0D6F5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:48:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD45F6.6030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the inhumi /become/ \nvines by feeding Neighbors. I really doubt they started out that way. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then why were they such a threat to the Neighbours?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322077798.35187.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:49:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD45F6.6030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My theory is that they are the morlocks of what becomes of the people of Urth, more or less, when the vines share human blood; vines sentient through preying on the man through their shared but flawed recombination of the trees, eventually becoming all that was left of man before the recolonization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 11:13 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 12:39 PM, Dan'l\nDanehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think perhaps James and Marc have done this. If\ninhumi are increasing in\n? numbers on Blue without egg hatching or\nspace travel, the secret may well\n? be that inhumi are, at their most basic\nessence, lianas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the\ninhumi /become/ vines by feeding Neighbors. I really doubt\nthey started out that way. The lianna inhumi are on Blue for\nthe same reason other inhumi are on Blue and by the same\nmethod.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other method.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:58:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD49B1.60609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are \nburning liannas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322078548.18583.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:02:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD49B1.60609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 11:29 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, let's see if I can summarize this correctly. You\nbelieve that\n\n(a) the Neighbors are sentient trees native to Blue,\nwho can astrally\nproject into the form the Narrator meets;\n\n(b) the inhumi are not-natively-sentient reptiles or\namphibians native\nto Green, who take on the nature of what they feed on\n(at least in\ntheir offspring);\n\n(c) because they fed on Neighbors, who are trees, the\ninhumi \"take on\"\na sort of tree-ishness and become lianas.\n\nIs that correct?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely correct except that \"reptile\" is an analogy. One\nshould not assume a true reptile nature.\n\nAs the Rajan says:\n\"These people, like people everywhere here, seem to fear\nthat an inhumu may live on even with its head severed. That\nis not the case, of course; but I cannot help wondering how\nthe superstition originated and became so widespread.\nCertainly the inhumi have no bones as we understand them.\nPossibly their skeletons are cartilage, as those of some\nsea-creatures are. On Green, Geier maintained that the\ninhumi are akin to slugs and leeches. No one, I believe,\ntook him seriously; yet it is certain that once dead they\ndecay very quickly, though they are difficult to kill and\ncan survive for weeks and even months without the blood that\nis their only food. \"\n~ OBW chapter 4\n\nAdditionally, the Rajan notes that there is a general\nbelief that inhumi can survive even after decapitation. He\nasserts that this is not true, but ponders how it came to be\nso generally believed. This might be reference to the\nRajan's lianna staff that (it is implied) is still sentient.\nAdditionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are\nburning liannas.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is confusing chicken and egg, honestly. ontogeny recapitulates philogeny: the reptile stage of evolution shows that in the past they fed on reptiles before becoming man feeders, but the \"being buried and not dying\" etc is a function of their vinish origin." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322078671.34682.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322078548.18583.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And from the statements that the inhuni lose with every triumph over the men on Green, it is certain they will regress with no sentient food: back to their animal/vinish origin. They NEED fresh supplies of food to remain sophisticated sentient beings." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5325.9000905@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:10:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember anything of the kind.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n \n \n*From:* James Wynn \n*> *Additionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are\nburning liannas.\n \nAre you sure? I can’t find the reference.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD541C.1000609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:14:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD49B1.60609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:29 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, let's see if I can summarize this correctly. You believe that\n\n(a) the Neighbors are sentient trees native to Blue, who can astrally\nproject into the form the Narrator meets;\n\n(b) the inhumi are not-natively-sentient reptiles or amphibians native\nto Green, who take on the nature of what they feed on (at least in\ntheir offspring);\n\n(c) because they fed on Neighbors, who are trees, the inhumi \"take on\"\na sort of tree-ishness and become lianas.\n\nIs that correct?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely correct except that \"reptile\" is an analogy. One should not \nassume a true reptile nature.\n\nAs the Rajan says:\n\"These people, like people everywhere here, seem to fear that an \ninhumu may live on even with its head severed. That is not the case, \nof course; but I cannot help wondering how the superstition originated \nand became so widespread. Certainly the inhumi have no bones as we \nunderstand them. Possibly their skeletons are cartilage, as those of \nsome sea-creatures are. On Green, Geier maintained that the inhumi are \nakin to slugs and leeches. No one, I believe, took him seriously; yet \nit is certain that once dead they decay very quickly, though they are \ndifficult to kill and can survive for weeks and even months without \nthe blood that is their only food. \"\n~ OBW chapter 4" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly, that is much more true of slugs than of most plants and \nplant parts. Even fruits stick around unless they are opened. I have \nalways assumed that at base the inhumi were indeed soft parasitic bugs. \nThey still could be---the forests of Green are evolutionarily impossible \nwithout bugs of some kind. You need a long war between predator and prey \nto evolve new forms.\n\nAnd I think this is thematically possible as well---after all, no one \nknew 2000 years ago that grapes became wine because they have yeast \nbacteria embedded in their skins. Such bugs---slugs---blugs---could have \nmerged with plants millennia ago and provided some basic genetic coding \nlike the bacteria needed in the gut to break down food. We know a \nspecies of seaslug contains algae; this is but the reverse.\n\nThat was \"then.\" Inhumi could be closer to plants now." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD54A8.3030004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:16:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD4D09.8090609@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:44 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think a serious objection to the theory of Neighbours as trees is \nthat they like\nfires. Trees should not like fires ...\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow? Plus, if inhumi \nare feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. \nHow could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen \nand all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Insects and plants have all sort of tricks to fight the cold, \nincluding antifreezes and allowing themselves to be covered with ice. \nSince we know they can't fly through the void (no air) they may \nsimply launch themselves and drift until they fall.\n\nThen, of course, they have potentially burning up to contend with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends. Chinese farmers use their feces in their fields and are not \nsentimental about it; dry brush threatens trees. Why not burn your own \nfingernails and hair if it keeps you warm, or kills parasites?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5528.4090008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322077798.35187.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:49 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the\ninhumi /become/ vines by feeding Neighbors. I really doubt\nthey started out that way. The lianna inhumi are on Blue for\nthe same reason other inhumi are on Blue and by the same\nmethod.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other method." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By that theory, Pajarocu would be full of inhumi who do not feed on \nhumans or prefer trees to humans, and the Neighbors would naturally burn \nthe lianas that result." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322079535.65275.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:18:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD541C.1000609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is backwards. The trees and vines both fed on sentient beings in the past and revert to their natural primitive state without that influx of sentience. The inhumi really are what they consume, and that is very very clear from the text. They started as lianas then became animals through consuming animals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 12:14 PM\nOn 11/23/2011 2:29 PM, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, let's see if I can summarize this correctly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You believe that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(a) the Neighbors are sentient trees native to\nBlue, who can astrally\nproject into the form the Narrator meets;\n\n(b) the inhumi are not-natively-sentient reptiles\nor amphibians native\nto Green, who take on the nature of what they feed\non (at least in\ntheir offspring);\n\n(c) because they fed on Neighbors, who are trees,\nthe inhumi \"take on\"\na sort of tree-ishness and become lianas.\n\nIs that correct?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Precisely correct except that \"reptile\" is an analogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One should not assume a true reptile nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the Rajan says:\n\"These people, like people everywhere here, seem to\nfear that an inhumu may live on even with its head severed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is not the case, of course; but I cannot help wondering\nhow the superstition originated and became so widespread.\nCertainly the inhumi have no bones as we understand them.\nPossibly their skeletons are cartilage, as those of some\nsea-creatures are. On Green, Geier maintained that the\ninhumi are akin to slugs and leeches. No one, I believe,\ntook him seriously; yet it is certain that once dead they\ndecay very quickly, though they are difficult to kill and\ncan survive for weeks and even months without the blood that\nis their only food. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "~ OBW chapter 4" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interestingly, that is much more true of slugs than of most\nplants and plant parts. Even fruits stick around unless they\nare opened. I have always assumed that at base the inhumi\nwere indeed soft parasitic bugs. They still could be---the\nforests of Green are evolutionarily impossible without bugs\nof some kind. You need a long war between predator and prey\nto evolve new forms.\n\nAnd I think this is thematically possible as well---after\nall, no one knew 2000 years ago that grapes became wine\nbecause they have yeast bacteria embedded in their skins.\nSuch bugs---slugs---blugs---could have merged with plants\nmillennia ago and provided some basic genetic coding like\nthe bacteria needed in the gut to break down food. We know a\nspecies of seaslug contains algae; this is but the reverse.\n\nThat was \"then.\" Inhumi could be closer to plants now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322079728.3136.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:22:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5528.4090008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that isn't my theory quoted below, the lianas are the starting point for inhumi, the trees are the starting point for vanished people, both of which originate with old school humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 12:18 PM\nOn 11/23/2011 2:49 PM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the\ninhumi /become/ vines by feeding Neighbors. I really\ndoubt\nthey started out that way. The lianna inhumi are on\nBlue for\nthe same reason other inhumi are on Blue and by the\nsame\nmethod.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other\nmethod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By that theory, Pajarocu would be full of inhumi who do not\nfeed on humans or prefer trees to humans, and the Neighbors\nwould naturally burn the lianas that result.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD56D6.4030305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322079535.65275.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:18 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI think this is backwards. The trees and vines both fed on sentient beings in the past and revert to their natural primitive state without that influx of sentience. The inhumi really are what they consume, and that is very very clear from the text. They started as lianas then became animals through consuming animals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems like either path is biologically possible! Except that only trees \nstand still long enough for a vine to feed on it.\n\nAre you and James open to a long evolutionary history of transfers of \nDNA in both directions? If not, why not?\n\nOnce the \"become what you eat\" kicked in, what's to stop it? How could \nany planimal/aniplant ever truly regress except in losing sentience, a \nsingle \"soft\" feature?\n\nEvolution does not go backwards---but a species can lose traits as well \nas evolve them repeatedly in different ways. (Such I believe is Wolfe's \nmodel for human moral evolution anyway.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5703.2010008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322079728.3136.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:22 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd that isn't my theory quoted below, the lianas are the starting point for inhumi, the trees are the starting point for vanished people, both of which originate with old school humanity.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 12:18 PM\nOn 11/23/2011 2:49 PM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This isn't really my theory. I have proposed that the\ninhumi /become/ vines by feeding Neighbors. I really\ndoubt\nthey started out that way. The lianna inhumi are on\nBlue for\nthe same reason other inhumi are on Blue and by the\nsame\nmethod.\nIf they don't fly there, then they use some other\nmethod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By that theory, Pajarocu would be full of inhumi who do not\nfeed on humans or prefer trees to humans, and the Neighbors\nwould naturally burn the lianas that result." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD59A8.8060002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:38:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn \n*> *Additionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are\nburning liannas.\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:\nAre you sure? I can't find the reference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic. But it was the reading I gleaned \nfrom the following exchange:\n\n****************\nHe nodded solemnly. \"Afraid Neighbor-man.\" When I asked what a \nNeighbor-man was, he laughed and pointed to the ring Seawrack had given \nme. \"You Neighbor-man.\"\n\"Many Neighbor here,\" his wife told Seawrack. She paused to moisten the \nsinew with which she sewed, running it through her mouth. \"Build many \nfire. Neighbor-man,\" she pointed to me, \"come, talk Neighbor.\"\nI indicated the wilderness of sand and scrub through which we had walked \nfor most of the day. \"Are there many Neighbors down there?\"\nWithout looking up from her sewing, she nodded emphatically. \"Many \nNeighbor. Many fire.\"\nHer son displayed both palms. \"No kill Neighbor.\"\nHis father laughed again. \"He no kill. Change blood Neighbor,\" to which \nhe added what seemed to be several sentences in a tongue that I had \nnever heard before.\n\"Neighbor kill you?\" I suggested.\nHe shook his head. \"Kill inhumu.\"\n~OBW, chptr 11\n***************\n\nAdditionally, burning seems to be the most widely understood as the \neffective way of killing an inhumi:\n\n******************\nAn inhuma was caught last night, and today I was forced to watch as she \nwas buried alive. There is no trial for these monsters, and \nunderstandably so---we burn them in New Viron...\n~OBW, chapter 4\n*******************\n\n*********\nInhumi are burned alive in Skany...\n~OBW, chpt 10\n***************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5A64.6040709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:41:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD56D6.4030305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSeems like either path is biologically possible! Except that only \ntrees stand still long enough for a vine to feed on it.\nAre you and James open to a long evolutionary history of transfers of \nDNA in both directions? If not, why not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there is any exchange of DNA between humans and inhumi (or \nwith Neighbors so far as I know).\nOnly souls are transferred. Is the transfer only one way? I don't know. \nI've always wondered about Quetzal standing over Silk when he is brought \nback from the dead when his vehicle crashed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5B75.10701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD48A2.70207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 1:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThen Horn clears the sewer, is that his real body or a dream one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...I've always considered it a dream state. Was there an inhumi \nnearby? I must ponder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I note the Neighbor tells him during that episode that there are two \nof him: I assume Horn and Neighbor. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. There was that guy the he shook hands with at the meeting with \nthe Neighbors. Post the quote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The narrator seems to make up things Horn would not likely do, like \npray at the Vanished Goddess's altar. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems Neighborly. I doubt it would convinced the unconvinced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, Incanto recalls a dream in which he (Horn) is in the pit. \nWhen he wakes, he is in his father's shop. Do you make sense of that? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Post the quote." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:56:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5B75.10701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How could inhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen and all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Insects and plants have all sort of tricks to fight the cold, including \nantifreezes and allowing themselves to be covered with ice. Since we \nknow they can't fly through the void (no air) they may simply launch \nthemselves and drift until they fall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNah. Those tricks are for fighting cold temperatures on earth. None would work\nin outer space. The best ethylene glycol (car antifreeze) could do would be\nto stay liquid at -51C (at highly toxic levels, mind you). The void is -273 C.\n \nI think the only chance a living thing might have of surviving extended void\nexposure might be the spore stage of bacteria (and even there, the chances are \nslim). But that's the thing. A spore can only be produced by a single cell \norganism. Multicelled creatures require an internal liquid medium.\n \nI guess, since this is SF, you could postulate that the inhumi completely\ndehydrate themselves and their dry, mummified husks drift through space and\nmanage to re-enter and rehydrate on Blue.\n \nBut why would you want to? I don't get this. I swear this is Wolfe's commentary\non politics and demogoguery. People will swallow ten tons of crap from a politician\njust to avoid admitting the simple truth that they are lying. Don't drink the\ninhumi kool-aid! They travel through space the way we are shown they travel- \nusing deception to become an unwanted hitchhiker. Better check the cargo hold\nof that lander for stray lianas too ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD5E47.5040204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T20:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5A64.6040709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:41 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 2:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seems like either path is biologically possible! Except that only \ntrees stand still long enough for a vine to feed on it.\nAre you and James open to a long evolutionary history of transfers of \nDNA in both directions? If not, why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there is any exchange of DNA between humans and inhumi \n(or with Neighbors so far as I know).\nOnly souls are transferred. Is the transfer only one way? I don't \nknow. I've always wondered about Quetzal standing over Silk when he is \nbrought back from the dead when his vehicle crashed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insofar as one may be a model for the other, I am not sure it matters. \nHowever, I was thinking of their early evolution.\n\nWhich crash was that---the floater?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6010.7020103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:05:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5E47.5040204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSeems like either path is biologically possible! Except that only \ntrees stand still long enough for a vine to feed on it.\nAre you and James open to a long evolutionary history of transfers \nof DNA in both directions? If not, why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI don't think there is any exchange of DNA between humans and inhumi \n(or with Neighbors so far as I know).\nOnly souls are transferred. Is the transfer only one way? I don't \nknow. I've always wondered about Quetzal standing over Silk when he \nis brought back from the dead when his vehicle crashed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Insofar as one may be a model for the other, I am not sure it matters. \nHowever, I was thinking of their early evolution.\nWhich crash was that---the floater?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, when Silk meets his parents.\n\nI think their early evolution was a fluke as the Rajan says. They had \nthis psychic ability to mimic and then one day they happened to feed on \nsentient life...and then it got weird." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6343.30609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5B75.10701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 1:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Horn clears the sewer, is that his real body or a dream one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm...I've always considered it a dream state. Was there an inhumi \nnearby? I must ponder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, they had just landed and were put underground by the inhumi. So \nthere may have been somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I note the Neighbor tells him during that episode that there are two \nof him: I assume Horn and Neighbor. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly. There was that guy the he shook hands with at the meeting \nwith the Neighbors. Post the quote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "p63: \"How many of us are there?\" the man with the black sword asked. He \nlooked about him as he spoke, and saw no one.\n\n\"There are two of you,\" the man of the Vanished People said; and as he \ndid, the man with the black sword saw a corpse face down in the water.\n\n\nEither \"the man with the black sword\" is two people or he counts almost \nas a corpse to the Neighbor. Ambiguous!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The narrator seems to make up things Horn would not likely do, like \npray at the Vanished Goddess's altar. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems Neighborly. I doubt it would convinced the unconvinced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking Silkly, but that's better! Silk would understand it \nthough, and tell it like that even f he wasn't there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, Incanto recalls a dream in which he (Horn) is in the pit. \nWhen he wakes, he is in his father's shop. Do you make sense of that? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Post the quote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "p58: I was in the pit, sitting in the middle of it as I actually did for \nso many hours. [He's reading the Writings, sees Scylla, and reveals it's \na dream.]\n\nI sat up and stared around at the little stationery shop as if I had \nnever seen paper or ledgers before; and in the [sic] precisely the same \nvoice Oreb exclaimed ... \"Watch out!\"\n\nOreb may be in the dream as well, using Scylla's voice, but it's not \nclear. It would make sense if it were all just a Horn dream, mixed with \na Silk dream." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6383.6060700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nNah. Those tricks are for fighting cold temperatures on earth. None would work\nin outer space. The best ethylene glycol (car antifreeze) could do would be\nto stay liquid at -51C (at highly toxic levels, mind you). The void is -273 C.\n\nI think the only chance a living thing might have of surviving extended void\nexposure might be the spore stage of bacteria (and even there, the chances are\nslim). But that's the thing. A spore can only be produced by a single cell\norganism. Multicelled creatures require an internal liquid medium.\n[...]\nDon't drink the\ninhumi kool-aid! They travel through space the way we are shown they travel-\nusing deception to become an unwanted hitchhiker. Better check the cargo hold\nof that lander for stray lianas too ;- )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although Fava dies in the snow, Jahlee travels with the Rajan on \nhorseback through the winter. There are a lot of problems technically \nwith flying high enough by flapping your wings to leave the \ngravitational pull of one planet to enter another.**\nBut then there are technical problems with two planets regularly getting \nas close to each other as Green and Blue do.\n\nConsidering how hard hardy the inhumi are understood to be, the \nsurprising thing to me is that Fava died at all.\n\nJahlee speaks with great reverence for the risks her mom took to obtain \na soul for her. Of course, she might ACTUALLY have been referring to her \nhopping a lander.\n\n**The reason things burn up when they hit the atmosphere is because they \nhave to be traveling very fast to be in ORBIT. Inhumi don't care about \nbeing in orbit. They just fall. So they would not burn up in the atmosphere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6909.4070602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6383.6060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 4:20 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nAlthough Fava dies in the snow, Jahlee travels with the Rajan on \nhorseback through the winter. There are a lot of problems technically \nwith flying high enough by flapping your wings to leave the \ngravitational pull of one planet to enter another.**" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the biggest, probably. They'd need to be very strong and very \nlight with a huge surface area. They could use some other wind---like a \nsolar wind---for lift once they reach that point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then there are technical problems with two planets regularly \ngetting as close to each other as Green and Blue do.\n\nConsidering how hard hardy the inhumi are understood to be, the \nsurprising thing to me is that Fava died at all.\n\nJahlee speaks with great reverence for the risks her mom took to \nobtain a soul for her. Of course, she might ACTUALLY have been \nreferring to her hopping a lander.\n\n**The reason things burn up when they hit the atmosphere is because \nthey have to be traveling very fast to be in ORBIT. Inhumi don't care \nabout being in orbit. They just fall. So they would not burn up in the \natmosphere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Especially assuming they have wings at that point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44B9EF790B704954A0337FB4B4B5EEF1@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:48:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nah. Those tricks are for fighting cold temperatures on earth. None would work\nin outer space. The best ethylene glycol (car antifreeze) could do would be\nto stay liquid at -51C (at highly toxic levels, mind you). The void is -273 C." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Empty space has no temperature. (Typically the interplanetary gases are very hot in fact, but so dilute their temperature is irrelevant.) How hot or cold an object in the vacuum gets depends largely on whether the sun is shining on it. And since heat transfer is by radiation only (no conduction or convection) it will be relatively slow. Probably inhumi spin so that an equal amount of sunlight falls on every side.\nThe average temperature of an object in space should be a little lower than the average temperature on a planetary surface, though, due to the absence of a greenhouse effect.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<567D0A71875649EE811EAB3DEF211141@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD59A8.8060002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n\n\n\n From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Additionally, HePenSheep says that the Neighbors fires are \nburning liannas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAre you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6B75.9090603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T21:53:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHow could inhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen and all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)\nInsects and plants have all sort of tricks to fight the cold, including\nantifreezes and allowing themselves to be covered with ice. Since we\nknow they can't fly through the void (no air) they may simply launch\nthemselves and drift until they fall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nah. Those tricks are for fighting cold temperatures on earth. None would work\nin outer space. The best ethylene glycol (car antifreeze) could do would be\nto stay liquid at -51C (at highly toxic levels, mind you). The void is -273 C." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot to mention that one trick would be to not have any water in \ntheir bodies when they fly. Problem solved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the only chance a living thing might have of surviving extended void\nexposure might be the spore stage of bacteria (and even there, the chances are\nslim). But that's the thing. A spore can only be produced by a single cell\norganism. Multicelled creatures require an internal liquid medium." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Earth, yes. This is SF." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess, since this is SF, you could postulate that the inhumi completely\ndehydrate themselves and their dry, mummified husks drift through space and\nmanage to re-enter and rehydrate on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're way ahead of me!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why would you want to? I don't get this. I swear this is Wolfe's commentary\non politics and demogoguery. People will swallow ten tons of crap from a politician\njust to avoid admitting the simple truth that they are lying. Don't drink the\ninhumi kool-aid! They travel through space the way we are shown they travel-\nusing deception to become an unwanted hitchhiker. Better check the cargo hold\nof that lander for stray lianas too ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool \nidea. I WANT to believe ... !\n\nFor me, the most compelling argument would be that inhumi do not \nsee---or at least are not blinded---in the human visual spectrum. Krait \nsays he can see the stars at day. Either his vision is extremely \nsensitive, without protective mechanisms like irises, or it's extremely \ninsensitive. Now, what's the evolutionary advantage of that? Sounds \nlike a spacefaring species to me, evolved for feeding on Neighbors.\n\n(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked \nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated \nconversations. Which is entirely possible.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:00:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6B75.9090603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool idea. I WANT to believe ... !" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked\nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated conversations.\nWhich is entirely possible.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, to me, is the strongest argument for believing that the inhumi\nfly through space. They may be liars, but they all tell the same story\non this, and, unless you believe that they are in collusion, which is,\nI suppose, possible but seems to me to resemble a conspiracy theory\nlike the Bavarian Illuminati controlling the Jewish Bankers, the\nTrilateral Commission, and the Jesuits -- unless, as I say, you\nbelieve that, or else the equally remarkable coincidence that they\nseem to all instinctively come up wiht the same story, then you must\nconclude that they are telling the truth and fly through space ...\nwhich is, indeed, a cool idea." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6E40.8060707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:05:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6010.7020103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 4:05 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhich crash was that---the floater?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, when Silk meets his parents. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you have a page number or quote for the meeting and the crash?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6E7D.5050503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322079728.3136.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 2:22 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd that isn't my theory quoted below, the lianas are the starting point for inhumi, the trees are the starting point for vanished people, both of which originate with old school humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a few problems I have with the theory that inhumi are created \nfrom vines eating animal life:\n\n1) Why do only the vines create inhumi? The trees produce everything \nelse, right? And what is the chance that there would be two separate \nplant species on Urth that essentially perform the same function? And \nwhy did they not subsume humanity from the start. Why is there not even \na threat of that until enough time has passed on Ushas for the original \nrecolonizers from Tzadkiel to become mythology?\n\n2) You believe Horn's resurrection is an example of the mechanism that \ntransformed humanity into Neighbors. But you don't really. You don't \nthink the Horn that crawled out of the pit is a Neighbor. You think he \nwas somehow resurrected after the tree ate him and produced the \nNeighbor-Horn. But that is not what is supposed to happen.\n\n3) The Neighbors started on Blue. Yet, you believe that Green is Urth's \nfuture. But shouldn't they have started on Green where humanity died? I \nthink your Hybrid Theory is a relic of your Blue Ushas theory...when you \nwere trying to figure out all the signs of Urth structures on Blue, \ncomplete with its own Scylla. When you abandoned BU, you grafted a new \nplanet in its place like Typhon grafting his head on to Piaton. But as \nwith Typhon, there turn out to be complications.\n\nRather than putting new wine in old bottles, I think you need to start \nfresh. Urth is Green. Okay. How do we get from Ushas to Green or from \nGreen to Urth? Is Green *really* in Urth's future or is there another \nsolution." } ] }, { "message_id": "<12AB5FE29D4B4098BCB474BA99649775@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:06:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6B75.9090603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, the most compelling argument would be that inhumi do not \nsee---or at least are not blinded---in the human visual spectrum. Krait \nsays he can see the stars at day. Either his vision is extremely \nsensitive, without protective mechanisms like irises, or it's extremely \ninsensitive. Now, what's the evolutionary advantage of that? Sounds \nlike a spacefaring species to me, evolved for feeding on Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it as inhumi seeing in the infrared or microwave spectrum. Infrared vision would fit with an evolutionary ancestry of snake-like predators on warm-blooded creatures.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD6ED6.70302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:08:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<567D0A71875649EE811EAB3DEF211141@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are you sure? I can't find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Not emphatic' as in 'not stated at all'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD710B.2030008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:17:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:00 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool idea. I WANT to believe ... !" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked\nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated conversations.\nWhich is entirely possible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, to me, is the strongest argument for believing that the inhumi\nfly through space. They may be liars, but they all tell the same story\non this, and, unless you believe that they are in collusion, which is,\nI suppose, possible but seems to me to resemble a conspiracy theory\nlike the Bavarian Illuminati controlling the Jewish Bankers, the\nTrilateral Commission, and the Jesuits -- unless, as I say, you\nbelieve that, or else the equally remarkable coincidence that they\nseem to all instinctively come up wiht the same story, then you must\nconclude that they are telling the truth and fly through space ...\nwhich is, indeed, a cool idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And also gives them a way to coevolve with the Neighbors on Blue. \nDepending on the theory, one may imagine them crossing to feed on \nNeighbors and becoming parasitic vines long before they fed on humans. \nHowever, the Neighbors seem to know them in their inhumi form too, \nthough that may just be recognition.\n\n(If the Neighbors are native to Green this all means nothing. The big \ntrees are there but the multilimbed species are all on Blue, so I have \nno idea.)\n\nAnother point is that their lying is supposed to be a way to \"become.\" \nEvolutionarily, I assume this helps them join the society of their prey. \nI'm not sure what the spaceflight story does except direct human \nattention away from Pajarocu, which is already pretty remote and hidden. \n(The lander goes back and forth most easily at conjunction, but that \nexplanation can only go back 20 years. Maybe that makes sense.) And it \ndoesn't help them \"become.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD71F4.9020007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6ED6.70302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a tantalizing series of clues.\n\nAre you thinking of ... a bloody mangled corpse? A pistol that has just \nbeen fired?\n\nI'll figure it out ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:23:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD710B.2030008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And also gives them a way to coevolve with the Neighbors on Blue. \nDepending on the theory, one may imagine them crossing to feed on \nNeighbors and becoming parasitic vines long before they fed on humans. \nHowever, the Neighbors seem to know them in their inhumi form too, \nthough that may just be recognition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But don’t the Neighbours say they only discovered the inhumi after they went to Green?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD74B1.3050907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:33:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6E40.8060707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which crash was that---the floater?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, when Silk meets his parents. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have a page number or quote for the meeting and the crash?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chapter 9 of \"Calde of the Long Sun\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD774C.8050205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:44:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD74B1.3050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:33 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Which crash was that---the floater?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, when Silk meets his parents. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you have a page number or quote for the meeting and the crash?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chapter 9 of \"Calde of the Long Sun\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, when Auk pushed him, yes. Quetzal is there but so is Incus, so I \ndoubt there was any funny business." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322088339.55471.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:45:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6E7D.5050503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\n1) Why do only the vines create inhumi? The trees produce\neverything else, right? And what is the chance that there\nwould be two separate plant species on Urth that essentially\nperform the same function? And why did they not subsume\nhumanity from the start. Why is there not even a threat of\nthat until enough time has passed on Ushas for the original\nrecolonizers from Tzadkiel to become mythology?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, the vines parasitized the trees and gained something of their function, but not the entire amount. When the vines feed on reptiles, they are like reptiles. And yes, the entire species of humanity was completely subsumed long long ago. They moved on, they became the original \"neighbors\" and stepped sidewise somewhere or when. Humanity diverged into a lower and higher path: neighbors and inhumi. In the absence of fresh blood, the inhumi revert to their more animalistic form.\n\nThis is very complicated by stories of Neighborly origin on blue ... but the trees of sentience are on green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) You believe Horn's resurrection is an example of the\nmechanism that transformed humanity into Neighbors. But you\ndon't really. You don't think the Horn that crawled out of\nthe pit is a Neighbor. You think he was somehow resurrected\nafter the tree ate him and produced the Neighbor-Horn. But\nthat is not what is supposed to happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, i think the long nosed fellow causes the resurrection, the sharing of blood through being \"dead food\" is indicative of death \"dead things are food\". The trees eat trees on green somehow, but it is not clear that they can only eat trees, and the eucharist scene is being watched by the vanished gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) The Neighbors started on Blue. Yet, you believe that\nGreen is Urth's future. But shouldn't they have started on\nGreen where humanity died? I think your Hybrid Theory is a\nrelic of your Blue Ushas theory...when you were trying to\nfigure out all the signs of Urth structures on Blue,\ncomplete with its own Scylla. When you abandoned BU, you\ngrafted a new planet in its place like Typhon grafting his\nhead on to Piaton. But as with Typhon, there turn out to be\ncomplications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the big big problem. The neighbors starting on Blue, blue in general, everything about Blue, but ITS COLDER THAN URTH and COLDER THAN GREEN, I think that is very very important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather than putting new wine in old bottles, I think you\nneed to start fresh. Urth is Green. Okay. How do we get from\nUshas to Green or from Green to Urth? Is Green *really* in\nUrth's future or is there another solution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no indication that it is in the past, with the decayed relics, with the towers that are space ships, with the future of humanity KNOWN to be that of the green man and, lo and behold, vegetative life here (or do you deny that the neighbors and the inhumi are related to plants?) The ship left in Typhon's past, Silk thinks of Green as it was before its present state when he winds up on Urth, etc etc. There is nothing that indicates it is in the past thematically in the book, Green is an old abandoned decayed relic." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD7808.1080907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD71F4.9020007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDid you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat a tantalizing series of clues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's such a strange coincidence that so many people pick poor little Gerry.\nThe guy is always being backed into fights. How does one fellow end up \nwith in so many unfortunately hostile conversation?\nWhy can't the people who converse with him learn to be more civil?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD79BE.2040505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:54:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD5B75.10701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 20:45):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 1:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The narrator seems to make up things Horn would not likely do, like pray\nat the Vanished Goddess's altar. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems Neighborly. I doubt it would convinced the unconvinced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Rajan does all kinds of things Silk would do.\nBut I can't get my head around the idea that the Rajan pondered sacrificing \nOreb." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD7B4E.1010400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322088339.55471.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThere is no indication that [Green] is in [Urth's] past, with the \ndecayed relics, with the towers that are space ships, with the future \nof humanity KNOWN to be that of the green man and, lo and behold, \nvegetative life here (or do you deny that the neighbors and the inhumi \nare related to plants?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You very well know that I believe the inhumi are connected somehow to \nthe liannas. But the green man does not look like a Neighbor. I'm not \nabsolutely certain that a Neighbor could even be captured by the \nSeverian's people. Drawing a connection between the Neighbors and the \ngreen man has as many problems as equating Urth and Green. Let's not buy \ntrouble for ourselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ship left in Typhon's past, Silk thinks of Green as it was before its present state when he winds up on Urth, etc etc. There is nothing that indicates it is in the past thematically in the book, Green is an old abandoned decayed relic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but not _necessarily_ a relic of Urth. Green and Urth could be same \nbut Green could be at the same point in the renewal cycle that Urth is \nin Silk's time. I'm not talking about a mantanvara. I'm talking about \nsomething like Green-->Earth-->Urth-->Ushas. Both Green and Urth are on \nthe verge of a renewal." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD7D2E.6000509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322088339.55471.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think some of you are overlooking that there is precious little evidence \nthat the *biology* of the Inhumi changes with their feeding on other \nlife-forms. It's the soul that does. Otherwise they wouldn't have to go into \n'dream travel', something they are desperate to do (which suggests that they \ncan't do it without the Rajan, and that the Neighbours are really gone), in \norder to be physically human. It is reasonably implied that along with \nimpressive mimetism they have some way of mesmerising humans to achieve the \nillusion that they are human - but human they are not, physically.\nYeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas, but they don't exhibit \nthe traits we associate with dream-travellers.\n\n\nMarc Aramini wrote (23-11-2011 22:45):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) Why do only the vines create inhumi? The trees produce\neverything else, right? And what is the chance that there\nwould be two separate plant species on Urth that essentially\nperform the same function? And why did they not subsume\nhumanity from the start. Why is there not even a threat of\nthat until enough time has passed on Ushas for the original\nrecolonizers from Tzadkiel to become mythology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, the vines parasitized the trees and gained something of their function, but not the entire amount. When the vines feed on reptiles, they are like reptiles. And yes, the entire species of humanity was completely subsumed long long ago. They moved on, they became the original \"neighbors\" and stepped sidewise somewhere or when. Humanity diverged into a lower and higher path: neighbors and inhumi. In the absence of fresh blood, the inhumi revert to their more animalistic form.\n\nThis is very complicated by stories of Neighborly origin on blue ... but the trees of sentience are on green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) You believe Horn's resurrection is an example of the\nmechanism that transformed humanity into Neighbors. But you\ndon't really. You don't think the Horn that crawled out of\nthe pit is a Neighbor. You think he was somehow resurrected\nafter the tree ate him and produced the Neighbor-Horn. But\nthat is not what is supposed to happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, i think the long nosed fellow causes the resurrection, the sharing of blood through being \"dead food\" is indicative of death \"dead things are food\". The trees eat trees on green somehow, but it is not clear that they can only eat trees, and the eucharist scene is being watched by the vanished gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) The Neighbors started on Blue. Yet, you believe that\nGreen is Urth's future. But shouldn't they have started on\nGreen where humanity died? I think your Hybrid Theory is a\nrelic of your Blue Ushas theory...when you were trying to\nfigure out all the signs of Urth structures on Blue,\ncomplete with its own Scylla. When you abandoned BU, you\ngrafted a new planet in its place like Typhon grafting his\nhead on to Piaton. But as with Typhon, there turn out to be\ncomplications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the big big problem. The neighbors starting on Blue, blue in general, everything about Blue, but ITS COLDER THAN URTH and COLDER THAN GREEN, I think that is very very important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather than putting new wine in old bottles, I think you\nneed to start fresh. Urth is Green. Okay. How do we get from\nUshas to Green or from Green to Urth? Is Green *really* in\nUrth's future or is there another solution." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no indication that it is in the past, with the decayed relics, with the towers that are space ships, with the future of humanity KNOWN to be that of the green man and, lo and behold, vegetative life here (or do you deny that the neighbors and the inhumi are related to plants?) The ship left in Typhon's past, Silk thinks of Green as it was before its present state when he winds up on Urth, etc etc. There is nothing that indicates it is in the past thematically in the book, Green is an old abandoned decayed relic.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD7E48.6070701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD7808.1080907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 22:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDid you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat a tantalizing series of clues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's such a strange coincidence that so many people pick poor little Gerry.\nThe guy is always being backed into fights. How does one fellow end up with\nin so many unfortunately hostile conversation?\nWhy can't the people who converse with him learn to be more civil?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some guy said something about you being represented by your ideas. As such, \npointing out problems with your ideas is tantamount to delegitimising you as \na person. There was a time unbelievers were burned at the stake, and \npretending it was because our ancestors lacked some modern qualities is \ngetting old." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD7EEE.1020601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:17:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD7D2E.6000509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nYeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas, but they don't \nexhibit the traits we associate with dream-travellers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this. Marc believes the vines fed \non reptiles and spit out inhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were dream traveling \ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have taken the /form/ of \"vines\". \nI don't think they are actual vines. But chopping down a chunk of a \n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed it of whatever \ndream-traveling powers it originally had." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD8136.3080300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:26:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD7EEE.1020601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 23:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas, but they don't\nexhibit the traits we associate with dream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*I* was, for the sake of saying why I don't think we have evidence of the\ninhumi taking the biological form of their prey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc believes the vines fed on reptiles and spit out inhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were dream traveling\ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have taken the /form/ of \"vines\".\nI don't think they are actual vines. But chopping down a chunk of a\n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed it of whatever\ndream-traveling powers it originally had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we have evidence of the [children of the] inhumi taking the\nbiological form of their prey, as some of yous have been assuming." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD821A.9020405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (23-11-2011 19:16):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tend to believe that cold does them in, and their space travel is a lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Many animals can live in conditions where their eggs can't\nsuccessfully hatch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. I've never understood this. If Jahlee can survive being buried for \nyears - and the Rajan expected to find her alive there - there must be \nsomething more to Fava's death, which we irritatingly know zilch about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus, if inhumi are feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. How could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen and all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you not heard of the Lovable Water Bears?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD9260.5000704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T00:40:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD7E48.6070701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nGerry, did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what \nYOU say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat a tantalizing series of clues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's such a strange coincidence that so many people pick poor little \nGerry.\nThe guy is always being backed into fights. How does one fellow end \nup with\nin so many unfortunately hostile conversation?\nWhy can't the people who converse with him learn to be more civil?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSome guy said something about you being represented by your ideas. As \nsuch, pointing out problems with your ideas is tantamount to \ndelegitimising you as a person. There was a time unbelievers were \nburned at the stake, and pretending it was because our ancestors \nlacked some modern qualities is getting old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio, did you know that there is a bacteria at the very end of a \nhorse's digestive track that is vital to breaking down alfalfa? Without \nthis bacteria horses could not digest alfalfa and it is only found at \nthe very /end/ of a /horse's/ digestive tract.\nThe reason I bring this up is that it is related to my thoughts on \nreading three separate responses from Gerry today." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322101337.75061.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T02:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD7EEE.1020601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not entirely, entirely James. They have to feed on people or vanished people to really really be inhumi and sentient in the first place. Otherwise they are just parasitic vines who gained weird properties from their associations with the trees. Before the recolonizers they mostly just kind of ran out of people. Maybe it was time to break into the emergency food rations in orbit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 3:17 PM\nOn 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro\nMarques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas, but\nthey don't exhibit the traits we associate with\ndream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this. Marc believes\nthe vines fed on reptiles and spit out inhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were dream\ntraveling trees (dryads) and thus their children have taken\nthe /form/ of \"vines\". I don't think they are actual vines.\nBut chopping down a chunk of a \"vine\" to make a staff from\nit has not robbed it of whatever dream-traveling powers it\noriginally had.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322101734.50312.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T02:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD8136.3080300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a chapter titled, \"Why are the inhumi like us?\" and there is some indication that when the colonists, there food supply, are defeated, the inhumi will defeat themselves (no more sentient children, from what I understood) need to reread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 3:26 PM\nJames Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 23:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas,\nbut they don't\nexhibit the traits we associate with\ndream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*I* was, for the sake of saying why I don't think we have\nevidence of the\ninhumi taking the biological form of their prey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc believes the vines fed on reptiles and spit out\ninhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were\ndream traveling\ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have taken the\n/form/ of \"vines\".\nI don't think they are actual vines. But chopping down\na chunk of a\n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed it of\nwhatever\ndream-traveling powers it originally had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think we have evidence of the [children of the]\ninhumi taking the\nbiological form of their prey, as some of yous have been\nassuming.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T04:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322101734.50312.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool \nidea. I WANT to believe ... !" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI know you do! Argh! LMAO, I swear I am going to throw a hissy fit tantrum on this. \n\n \n\nNo, NO, NO!! It isn't plausible. Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only temperature but also a matter of internal\n\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to launch Inhumi from a planet would \n\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken spinning to catch the sun's radiation \n\nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles cannot work without water-filled cells and\n\nthose cannot exist in the void.\n\n \n\nI can see debating possibilities for fun. But not plausibility. There isn't any. As an \n\neffective Wolfe reader one *MUST* become aware of the lies of unreliable narrators. And the\n\ninhumi are as unreliable as any narrator in any Wolfe story. This is our responsibility.\n\nLet's not shirk it! ;- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, the most compelling argument would be that inhumi do not \nsee---or at least are not blinded---in the human visual spectrum. Krait \nsays....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nStop right there! There is not the slightest chance of a compelling argument here once the \n\nwords, \"Krait says..\" appears. You know this! (you acknowledge this) But still you want to\n\nbelieve the Great Deceivers and their pleasant, interesting, \"cool\" lies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked \nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated \nconversations. Which is entirely possible.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt is a veritable certainty. The campaign goes by the label of the great secret of the Inhumi.\n\nSilkHorn has promised them he would not reveal it to us. And he does not. He even provides the\n\nboondoggle of \"You are what you eat\" as their secret to show solidarity with any lying inhumi\n\nwho happen to read (or have read to them) the text.\n\n \n\nBut what Silkhorn does is provide the discerning reader with the means to determine what the \n\nreal Inhumi secret is. This allows him to support the good guys against the bad guys without\n\nbreaking his vow. Wolfe's science may not be perfect in his stories but it is damn good. Far,\n\nfar too good to allow naked biological bodies to perform extended flight in the void.\n\n \n\n(believe the inhumi and I've got an Iraq invasion to sell you, complete with yellowcake uranium,\n\nhundreds of Iraqi nuclear warheads and 9/11 planned by Saddam Hussein ;-)) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T05:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looks to me like someone's inhumi roommate left town without kicking in on his half of the rent.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool \nidea. I WANT to believe ... !" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know you do! Argh! LMAO, I swear I am going to throw a hissy fit tantrum on this. \n\n\n\nNo, NO, NO!! It isn't plausible. Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only temperature but also a matter of internal\n\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to launch Inhumi from a planet would \n\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken spinning to catch the sun's radiation \n\nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles cannot work without water-filled cells and\n\nthose cannot exist in the void.\n\n\n\nI can see debating possibilities for fun. But not plausibility. There isn't any. As an \n\neffective Wolfe reader one *MUST* become aware of the lies of unreliable narrators. And the\n\ninhumi are as unreliable as any narrator in any Wolfe story. This is our responsibility.\n\nLet's not shirk it! ;- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me, the most compelling argument would be that inhumi do not \nsee---or at least are not blinded---in the human visual spectrum. Krait \nsays....." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stop right there! There is not the slightest chance of a compelling argument here once the \n\nwords, \"Krait says..\" appears. You know this! (you acknowledge this) But still you want to\n\nbelieve the Great Deceivers and their pleasant, interesting, \"cool\" lies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked \nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated \nconversations. Which is entirely possible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a veritable certainty. The campaign goes by the label of the great secret of the Inhumi.\n\nSilkHorn has promised them he would not reveal it to us. And he does not. He even provides the\n\nboondoggle of \"You are what you eat\" as their secret to show solidarity with any lying inhumi\n\nwho happen to read (or have read to them) the text.\n\n\n\nBut what Silkhorn does is provide the discerning reader with the means to determine what the \n\nreal Inhumi secret is. This allows him to support the good guys against the bad guys without\n\nbreaking his vow. Wolfe's science may not be perfect in his stories but it is damn good. Far,\n\nfar too good to allow naked biological bodies to perform extended flight in the void.\n\n\n\n(believe the inhumi and I've got an Iraq invasion to sell you, complete with yellowcake uranium,\n\nhundreds of Iraqi nuclear warheads and 9/11 planned by Saddam Hussein ;-)) \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE2F29.4040507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T11:48:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322101734.50312.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, nobody's denying that the inhumi's souls become like those of their \nprey. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that I remember that \nsuggests that their *biology*, their *physique*, as opposed to their soul, \nundergoes any such transformation.\n\nMarc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 02:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a chapter titled, \"Why are the inhumi like us?\" and there is some indication that when the colonists, there food supply, are defeated, the inhumi will defeat themselves (no more sentient children, from what I understood) need to reread.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 3:26 PM\nJames Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 23:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas,\nbut they don't\nexhibit the traits we associate with\ndream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*I* was, for the sake of saying why I don't think we have\nevidence of the\ninhumi taking the biological form of their prey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc believes the vines fed on reptiles and spit out\ninhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were\ndream traveling\ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have taken the\n/form/ of \"vines\".\nI don't think they are actual vines. But chopping down\na chunk of a\n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed it of\nwhatever\ndream-traveling powers it originally had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think we have evidence of the [children of the]\ninhumi taking the\nbiological form of their prey, as some of yous have been\nassuming.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE2F33.5000003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T11:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322101734.50312.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, nobody's denying that the inhumi's souls become like those of their \nprey. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that I remember that \nsuggests that their *biology*, their *physique*, as opposed to their soul, \nundergoes any such transformation.\n\nMarc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 02:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a chapter titled, \"Why are the inhumi like us?\" and there is some indication that when the colonists, there food supply, are defeated, the inhumi will defeat themselves (no more sentient children, from what I understood) need to reread.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 3:26 PM\nJames Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 23:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling lianas,\nbut they don't\nexhibit the traits we associate with\ndream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*I* was, for the sake of saying why I don't think we have\nevidence of the\ninhumi taking the biological form of their prey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc believes the vines fed on reptiles and spit out\ninhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors who were\ndream traveling\ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have taken the\n/form/ of \"vines\".\nI don't think they are actual vines. But chopping down\na chunk of a\n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed it of\nwhatever\ndream-traveling powers it originally had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think we have evidence of the [children of the]\ninhumi taking the\nbiological form of their prey, as some of yous have been\nassuming.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T12:17:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322101734.50312.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a chapter titled, \"Why are the inhumi like us?\" and there is some\nindication that when the colonists, there food supply, are defeated, the \ninhumi will defeat themselves (no more sentient children, from what I \nunderstood) need to reread." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. As I understand it, if that happens they will then prey on unintelligent animals and regress to a similar state themselves, like they were on Green before the Neighbours came.\nOf course hus at least are moderately intelligent (as smart as an ape or better?) so the inhumi may not revert entirely to dumb animals, if, say, draining hus leaves them intelligent enough to fly, or if hus or similar creatures survive on Green.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T12:37:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I'm not arguing for anything but its plausibility. I think it's a cool \nidea. I WANT to believe ... !" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know you do! Argh! LMAO, I swear I am going to throw a hissy fit tantrum on this. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, NO, NO!! It isn't plausible. Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only temperature but also a matter of internal\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to launch Inhumi from a planet would \nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken spinning to catch the sun's radiation \nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles cannot work without water-filled cells > and those cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see debating possibilities for fun. But not plausibility. There isn't any. As an \neffective Wolfe reader one *MUST* become aware of the lies of unreliable narrators. And\nthe inhumi are as unreliable as any narrator in any Wolfe story. This is our responsibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe plays fast and loose with the laws of physics when it suits the story. Maybe inhumi can generate a hard shell for themselves while flying. An intitial spin may be maintained without muscular effort. We don’t know how long the flight takes — even a human subjected to vacuum won’t die immediately if he exhales beforehand. \nCan Tzadkiel fly in the vacuum? I’m sure you’ll agree that he can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(He could be lying, but if so the inhumi have a whole ad campaign worked \nout, complete with talking points to insert into unrelated \nconversations. Which is entirely possible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a veritable certainty. The campaign goes by the label of the great secret of the Inhumi.\nSilkHorn has promised them he would not reveal it to us. And he does not. He even provides > the boondoggle of \"You are what you eat\" as their secret to show solidarity with any lying \ninhumi who happen to read (or have read to them) the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas has answered this point long ago, when Severian was inclined to doubt the undine’s claim to swim between the stars:\n*****************************************\n\"When I was with Dr. Talos and you were gone, he and Jolenta used to tell me what a simple-minded person I was for believing people we met on the road, and things that Baldanders said, and things they said themselves, too. Just the same, I think that even the people who are called liars tell the truth much more often than they lie. It's so much easier! If that story about saving you wasn't true, why tell it? It could only frighten you when you thought back on it. And if she doesn't swim between stars what a useless thing to say. \n*****************************************\n\nA useful rule in interpreting Wolfe. The ultimate purpose of unreliable narrators is the same as that of reliable narrators, i.e. to tell the reader what is going on. They don’t invent stuff randomly as a rule, however naturalistic that may seem in some cases. Generally they tell the truth, with bits missing or strangely interpreted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what Silkhorn does is provide the discerning reader with the means to determine\n what the real Inhumi secret is. This allows him to support the good guys against the\nbad guys without breaking his vow. Wolfe's science may not be perfect in his stories\n but it is damn good. Far, far too good to allow naked biological bodies to perform \nextended flight in the void." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has a ship fly faster than light by tacking against the photonic wind. If he can do that he can have inhumi fly in space. Or gigantic godlings and undines (who can swim in space), for that matter.\n\nSo anyway, what’s the inhumi secret, according to you?\n\n \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T16:22:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Some guy said something about you being represented by " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "your ideas. As such, pointing out problems with your ideas is tantamount to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "delegitimising you as a person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNobody said that Antonio. What I said is that ideas represent people in here.\n\nDisagreement is one thing. Derision and ridicule is another. We all know how\n\nto exit an argument and \"agree to disagree\". If instead, a poster chooses to\n\nresort to insulting the ideas of others, I find that worthy of addressing.\n\n \n\nThis list is not a literary review journal but I see no reason we can't \n\nattempt to approach the standards for appropriate, professional, adult conduct\n\nfound in the writings for such publications. We all have little eruptions of \n\nchildish emotions in the course of our lives.. But we don't have to express them \n\nin writing and publish them on the internet every time we feel them. Do we? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T16:58:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Wolfe plays fast and loose with the laws of physics when it suits the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nActually, he doesn't. He is as meticulous as he can be. In this case it is completely \n\nunnecessary for inhumi to fly through space. And they don't. Wolfe would not give us such\n\nan implausible scientific impossibility unless there was a desperate need for it in the\n\nstory. And there isn't. The way inhumi travel through space is shown: on spaceships, using \n\ndeception to stow away in one form or another. \n\n \n\nRaising the possibility of their unassisted space travel is used to illustrate the power of \n\nlying, not to encourage fantastic, non-texual biological impossibilities. The inhumi need \n\nthis secret to be well-kept or they will lose the vital element of deceit they need to get \n\nonto spaceships.\n\n \n\nListen to yourself, Gerry. You are inventing rotissirie chicken spinning in space and insulated, \n\nradiation-proof hard shells from nothing. And for what? To allow the inhumi to not be liars, \n\nwhen they are all, without exception, demonstrable liars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dorcas has answered this point long ago, when Severian was inclined to doubt the undine’s claim " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to swim between the stars:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\"When I was with Dr. Talos and you were gone, he and Jolenta used to tell me what a simple-minded " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "person I was for believing people we met on the road, and things that Baldanders said, and things " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "they said themselves, too. Just the same, I think that even the people who are called liars tell " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the truth much more often than they lie. It's so much easier! If that story about saving you wasn't " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "true, why tell it? It could only frighten you when you thought back on it. And if she doesn't swim" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "between stars what a useless thing to say. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good and appropriate quote, Gerry. But by taking it too literally you are missing the hidden\n\nsignificance of it. In this quote, Baldanders and Dr. Talos admit being liars. They are liars! That\n\nis a fact which must color everything they say before and everything after this passage. Same for \n\nthe inhumi. If there is a grain of truth in their lies about them flying in space during the \n\nconjunction it is that they ride on short-distance landers which rely on the conjunction for the \n\nshortest travel path.\n\n \n\nFWIW, Juturna is also a liar. The passage suggests it by conflating her statement with those of \n\nBaldanders and Talos. Her lying is supported by the appearance of Idas on the Ship. She is cellular,\n\nthus she does not \"swim between the stars\" unassisted, like a mini-spaceship. If pinned down, perhaps\n\nshe would explain that swimming between the stars is a poetic way of saying she can travel through\n\ntime, \"in the spaces between stars\" i.e. space-time. Or something like that.\n\n \n\nThis leaves Tzadkiel's space-borne image in the mirror book to consider. Her self-description of her\n\nsponge-like character seem to suggest she is cellular in nature. So what gives with the outer space\n\nTzadkiel? My interpretation is that image was Tzadkiel's true essence. He/She is, in essence, spiritual \n\nonly, not biological, as befits an angel. Tzadkiel, like angels, only takes a biological form when \n\nhe/she needs to interact with others of that type. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T17:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Looks to me like someone's inhumi roommate left town without kicking " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in on his half of the rent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nLMAO. Yep. perhaps. Well, there are very few point in WOlfe stories I consider as\n\nsure and obvious as this one. So, I'll throw my little snit fit for a while.\n\n \n\nActually, that is probably enough to make my point, unless there is someone who \n\nwould like to continue the discussion on the purpose of Wolfean liars. There are\n\nquite a few of them and they serve a definite purpose in what Wolfe is trying to\n\nsay to his readers. (that purpose includes religion as well as politics) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE7C15.3010303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T17:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (24-11-2011 16:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Listen to yourself, Gerry. You are inventing rotissirie chicken spinning\nin space and insulated, radiation-proof hard shells from nothing. And\nfor what? To allow the inhumi to not be liars, when they are all, without\nexception, demonstrable liars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's the reason. Of course the inhumi deceive as a way of \nliving. The matter is that they exist on both planets so there must be a way \nfor them to get from one to the other. It's not because they say they do, \nit's because we know they do. We saw one way they intended to take humans to \nGreen. That doesn't mean they needed it if they wanted to go there \nthemselves. Is it credible that they have so many landers at their command \nthat they can easily move between planets as needed? You hypothesize that \nthey can breed on Blue and that's their secret, but why would it be a \nsecret? Why are they not dominant in Blue as they are in Green if they can \nbreed on Blue? And we do know Jahlee was born on Green, even if we \ndisbelieve all the others.\n\nAnd the issue others have pointed out is how do they all tell the same lie \nabout their travels? James thinks there is no reason why the Neighbours \nshould know much about one another, even though they're psychic; how should \nthe Inhumi, who do not appear to be psychic in the same extent, if at all, \nget their lie synchronised? To the point of being able to see the stars \nduring daytime? Is it a genetic lie that suffers no mutations?\n\nI'm ready to believe the Inhumi don't cross the void unaided, but I haven't \nyet seen convincing aid." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T17:33:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Wolfe plays fast and loose with the laws of physics when it suits the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, he doesn't. He is as meticulous as he can be. In this case it is completely \nunnecessary for inhumi to fly through space. And they don't. Wolfe would not give us such\nan implausible scientific impossibility unless there was a desperate need for it in the\nstory. And there isn't. The way inhumi travel through space is shown: on spaceships, using \ndeception to stow away in one form or another. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if that’s correct, what difference does it make? It does suggest, I suppose, that humans on Blue have less to worry about than they might have thought, given that their collapsing tech level will soon render space flight very rare or non-existent, and assuming that inhumi can indeed breed only on Green.\nIf they can breed on Blue, it makes no difference at all unless they can be exterminated there.\nPersonally I think they can fly through space. Wolfe often uses cool but physically implausible ideas, even when they are not strictly necessary to the story. And the spaceship theory doesn’t explain why they appear in increased numbers on Blue during Conjunction. While it might save fuel, there’s no indication that many ships are launched then. In fact they wouldn’t be, there is more to worry about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Raising the possibility of their unassisted space travel is used to illustrate the power of \nlying, not to encourage fantastic, non-texual biological impossibilities. The inhumi need \nthis secret to be well-kept or they will lose the vital element of deceit they need to get \nonto spaceships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But spaceflight is almost dead anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Listen to yourself, Gerry. You are inventing rotissirie chicken spinning in space and >insulated, radiation-proof hard shells from nothing. And for what? To allow the inhumi to not >be liars, when they are all, without exception, demonstrable liars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Liars do not lie all the time, as Dorcas points out. And the things I invented are just the ordinary methods our primitive satellites use. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there is a grain of truth in their lies about them flying in space during the \nconjunction it is that they ride on short-distance landers which rely on the \nconjunction for the shortest travel path." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you saying inhumi have their own landers? Of course they have captured one, but it seems improbable that they have much of a space fleet. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, Juturna is also a liar. The passage suggests it by conflating her statement \nwith those of Baldanders and Talos. Her lying is supported by the appearance of \nIdas on the Ship. She is cellular, thus she does not \"swim between the stars\" unassisted, \nlike a mini-spaceship. If pinned down, perhaps she would explain that swimming \nbetween the stars is a poetic way of saying she can travel through time, \"in the \nspaces between stars\" i.e. space-time. Or something like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not so certain. If she can allow Severian to breathe underwater with a kiss, perhaps by expressing nanobots which will create gills for him, as the Mother somehow created gills for Seawrack, she may well be able to adapt to periods in vacuum without difficulty. Of course, neither ability is proven, but neither is disproven either. Erebus and Abaia may be post-Singularity beings of almost unimaginable capabilities, and some of these capabilities may be loaned to their more senior slaves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This leaves Tzadkiel's space-borne image in the mirror book to consider. Her self-\ndescription of her sponge-like character seem to suggest she is cellular in nature.\n So what gives with the outer space Tzadkiel? My interpretation is that image was\n Tzadkiel's true essence. He/She is, in essence, spiritual only, not biological, as \n befits an angel. Tzadkiel, like angels, only takes a biological form when he/she\n needs to interact with others of that type. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Wolfe sticks rigorously to physics, except when he doesn’t?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE8172.4070606@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-24T17:40:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE7C15.3010303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the idea that Green and Blue come so close (in the \"conjunction\" ) \nthat their atmospheres\ntouch does not come from inhumi, it comes from Wolfe, and it is said (as \ncommon\nknowledge) that this allows the inhumi to cross.\n\nI think this idea is not less doubtful from the points of view of \nphysics than inhumi\ncrossing through the void. The tides would be much more catastrophic than\ndescribed by Wolfe. There is Roche limit (about 9000 km for Earth) when the\norbiting planet will be destroyed by tidal forces. Since this is not \ncorrectly described\nby Wolfe (and it is not a story told by inhumi, but Wolfe's description of\nthe system), I rather agree that in this case it is loose physics (or \nmaybe GW\nis amusing himself with some \"naive\" errors).\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nLee Berman wrote (24-11-2011 16:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Listen to yourself, Gerry. You are inventing rotissirie chicken spinning\nin space and insulated, radiation-proof hard shells from nothing. And\nfor what? To allow the inhumi to not be liars, when they are all, \nwithout\nexception, demonstrable liars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that's the reason. Of course the inhumi deceive as a way \nof living. The matter is that they exist on both planets so there must \nbe a way for them to get from one to the other. It's not because they \nsay they do, it's because we know they do. We saw one way they \nintended to take humans to Green. That doesn't mean they needed it if \nthey wanted to go there themselves. Is it credible that they have so \nmany landers at their command that they can easily move between \nplanets as needed? You hypothesize that they can breed on Blue and \nthat's their secret, but why would it be a secret? Why are they not \ndominant in Blue as they are in Green if they can breed on Blue? And \nwe do know Jahlee was born on Green, even if we disbelieve all the \nothers.\n\nAnd the issue others have pointed out is how do they all tell the same \nlie about their travels? James thinks there is no reason why the \nNeighbours should know much about one another, even though they're \npsychic; how should the Inhumi, who do not appear to be psychic in the \nsame extent, if at all, get their lie synchronised? To the point of \nbeing able to see the stars during daytime? Is it a genetic lie that \nsuffers no mutations?\n\nI'm ready to believe the Inhumi don't cross the void unaided, but I \nhaven't yet seen convincing aid.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322157290.27004.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T17:54:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE2F29.4040507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to that feeding near reproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee resembles Chenille and is drunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille who was released from Green, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to mourn the murder of her children (she indulges in drink and drugs when bothered, from Long Sun).\n\nI don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 3:48 AM\nYes, nobody's denying that the\ninhumi's souls become like those of their \nprey. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that I\nremember that \nsuggests that their *biology*, their *physique*, as opposed\nto their soul, \nundergoes any such transformation.\n\nMarc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 02:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a chapter titled, \"Why are the inhumi like\nus?\" and there is some indication that when the colonists,\nthere food supply, are defeated, the inhumi will defeat\nthemselves (no more sentient children, from what I\nunderstood)? need to reread.\n\n--- On Wed, 11/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 3:26 PM\nJames Wynn wrote (23-11-2011 23:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 11/23/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yeah, the Inhumi could be dream-travelling\nlianas,\nbut they don't\nexhibit the traits we associate with\ndream-travellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think *anyone* is postulating this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*I* was, for the sake of saying why I don't think\nwe have\nevidence of the\ninhumi taking the biological form of their prey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Marc believes the vines fed on reptiles and\nspit out\ninhumi.\n\nI proposed that maybe they fed on Neighbors\nwho were\ndream traveling\ntrees (dryads) and thus their children have\ntaken the\n/form/ of \"vines\".\nI don't think they are actual vines. But\nchopping down\na chunk of a\n\"vine\" to make a staff from it has not robbed\nit of\nwhatever\ndream-traveling powers it originally had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think we have evidence of the [children of\nthe]\ninhumi taking the\nbiological form of their prey, as some of yous\nhave been\nassuming.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322157668.59133.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T18:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE7C15.3010303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a problem with inhumi jumping from planet to planet because astral travel is a pretty \"unnatural\" property anyway: they are not entirely normal physical creatures and this is SF, so it would have to serve a purpose for them to lie about it, and I just don't see that purpose. I do think they are beings that are not entirely bound by natural physical laws, as the vanished people seem to have become as well, stepping \"sideways\". My impression of the secret of the inhumi is that they are all that is left of the humans who did not \"advance\", doomed like the zooanthropes or whatever who willfully reduced themselves to an animalistic state, though this might not have been a choice." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE9101.3050209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T18:46:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322157290.27004.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to that feeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee resembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille who was released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to mourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs when bothered, from Long\nSun).\n\nI don't know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know they are able to visually mimic humans, but not the precise \nmechanics. Makeup, pose and optical illusion seem to be involved.\n\nBut *who* they mimic is an interesting point. The null hypothesis is that \nthey just disguise themselves as best they can, with no great choice in \noutcome, but the Chenille case casts doubt on that. Are you sure Krait \nresembles Sinew?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE9195.4090206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T18:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322157290.27004.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to that feeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee resembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille who was released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to mourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs when bothered, from Long\nSun)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a minute, wasn't it the real Chenille, only possessed by\ndream-travelling Jahlee? Or two separate scenes, drunk real Chenille and \nChenille-resembling Jahlee later on (which I don't recall)? I don't remember \nthat bit very clearly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE93B5.4030603@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-24T18:57:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE9195.4090206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for the intervention, I do not remember Chenille possessed by \nJahlee. As far as\nI remember the text, she didn't escape Green. (Nothing of the kind\nis mentioned.) She is in captivity\nat Sinew's and Bala house in Abanja village, and in a very bad condition.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nMarc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to that feeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee resembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille who was released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to mourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs when bothered, from Long\nSun)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a minute, wasn't it the real Chenille, only possessed by\ndream-travelling Jahlee? Or two separate scenes, drunk real Chenille \nand Chenille-resembling Jahlee later on (which I don't recall)? I \ndon't remember that bit very clearly.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE946A.3020902@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-24T19:00:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD821A.9020405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The earth where Jahlee was buried is in Gaon, not some permafrost. Maybe \nthey\ncannot survive when the water freezes.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nLee Berman wrote (23-11-2011 19:16):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I tend to believe that cold does them in, and their space travel is \na lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Many animals can live in conditions where their \neggs can't\nsuccessfully hatch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose. But isn't Fava really dead in the snow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed. I've never understood this. If Jahlee can survive being buried \nfor years - and the Rajan expected to find her alive there - there \nmust be something more to Fava's death, which we irritatingly know \nzilch about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plus, if inhumi are feeding\non blood it seems like they are water-based and cellular in nature. \nHow could\ninhumi survive in the void with all the water in their bodies frozen \nand all\ntheir cells burst? (hasn't this been discussed before?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you not heard of the Lovable Water Bears?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECE964E.90906@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-24T19:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD6ED6.70302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the fact remains - there is no such reference -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322165829.90099.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T20:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE93B5.4030603@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "no, chenille is not possessed by Jahlee. Jahlee is running amok in dorp and feeds on the offscreen Chenille. Jahlee reminds the narrator of chenille, acting drunk. The reason is that she has fed on the drunken Chenille who is mourning her children. The narrator has not failed her and left her in that basement. They have repaired the lander and come to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: (urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 10:57 AM\nSorry for the intervention, I do not\nremember Chenille possessed by Jahlee. As far as\nI remember the text, she didn't escape Green. (Nothing of\nthe kind\nis mentioned.) She is in captivity\nat Sinew's and Bala house in Abanja village, and in a very\nbad condition.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to\nthat feeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee\nresembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille\nwho was released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to\nmourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs when\nbothered, from Long\nSun)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wait a minute, wasn't it the real Chenille, only\npossessed by\ndream-travelling Jahlee? Or two separate scenes, drunk\nreal Chenille and Chenille-resembling Jahlee later on (which\nI don't recall)? I don't remember that bit very clearly.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322166069.16805.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T20:21:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE9195.4090206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Jahlee was feeding on a drunken woman offscreen and she reminds the narrator of Chenille. It's because Chenille really did escape the basement, the narrator just doesn't run into her there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 10:48 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011\n17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due to that\nfeeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when Jahlee\nresembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving Chenille who\nwas released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to blue to\nmourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs when\nbothered, from Long\nSun)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a minute, wasn't it the real Chenille, only possessed\nby\ndream-travelling Jahlee? Or two separate scenes, drunk real\nChenille and Chenille-resembling Jahlee later on (which I\ndon't recall)? I don't remember that bit very clearly.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322166806.66450.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T20:33:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???", "in_reply_to": "<1322165829.90099.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's at the end of chapter 7 in RttW. Jahlee drinks and drinks from a \"big woman\" drunk on rust. This matches chenille's description very well, a big woman who takes rust when she is depressed. the narrator is concerned that maybe Jahlee killed her, but she says she didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 12:17 PM\nno, chenille is not possessed by\nJahlee. Jahlee is running amok in dorp and feeds on\nthe offscreen Chenille. Jahlee reminds the narrator of\nchenille, acting drunk. The reason is that she has fed\non the drunken Chenille who is mourning her children.\nThe narrator has not failed her and left her in that\nbasement. They have repaired the lander and come to\nBlue.\n\n--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: (urth) chenille possessed by jahlee???\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 10:57 AM\nSorry for the intervention, I do not\nremember Chenille possessed by Jahlee. As far as\nI remember the text, she didn't escape Green. (Nothing\nof\nthe kind\nis mentioned.) She is in captivity\nat Sinew's and Bala house in Abanja village, and in a\nvery\nbad condition.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (24-11-2011 17:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I thought Krait's similarity to Sinew was due\nto\nthat feeding near\nreproduction cycle, but then later when\nJahlee\nresembles Chenille and is\ndrunk its because she fed on the greiving\nChenille\nwho was released from\nGreen, the lander repaired, and escaped to\nblue to\nmourn the murder of\nher children (she indulges in drink and drugs\nwhen\nbothered, from Long\nSun)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wait a minute, wasn't it the real Chenille, only\npossessed by\ndream-travelling Jahlee? Or two separate scenes,\ndrunk\nreal Chenille and Chenille-resembling Jahlee later on\n(which\nI don't recall)? I don't remember that bit very\nclearly.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322186780.74601.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T02:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322157668.59133.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone wrote me off list that they believe it best that I be more critical in my theories, because clearly Chenille was just on Green and there was no time to get to Blue, but they did not factor in my belief that astral travel is not necessarily separate from a displacement in time. A big woman on rust in an alley who, when fed upon, makes Jahlee be mistaken for Chenille, is enough for me to assert, yes, that's Chenille in the alley, and TIME IS NOT AN ISSUE TO ME WHEN ASTRAL TRAVEL IS CONCERNED. If you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for Chenille there. Mine does attempt to fit the facts of the story, I wish the allegation of uncritical reading were not leveled at me so often." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322188228.80118.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T02:30:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille and HORNS RING", "in_reply_to": "<1322186780.74601.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, one more thing: in dorp, Oreb returns and the ring the body of Horn was wearing shows up. The narrator realizes its his old ring. How did the black ring get there? That being Chenille explains how the ring got there (Lander from green repaired), who the big lady is, explains why he might mistake Jahlee for Chenille, and also goes back to her characteristics from Long Sun: if her children were killed or separated from her, she has in distress before drowned herself in rust and drinking. \n\nWithout that shuttle being fixed, you NEED TO EXPLAIN how Horn's ring got to Blue from his body AND WHY HE MISTOOK HER FROM CHENILLE. It clears up more inexplicable stuff than it leaves unexplained, otherwise we just accept Silk let her rot in the basement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 6:06 PM\n\nSomeone wrote me off list that they believe it best that I\nbe more critical in my theories, because clearly Chenille\nwas just on Green and there was no time to get to Blue, but\nthey did not factor in my belief that astral travel is not\nnecessarily separate from a displacement in time. A\nbig woman on rust in an alley who, when fed upon, makes\nJahlee be mistaken for Chenille, is enough for me to assert,\nyes, that's Chenille in the alley, and TIME IS NOT AN ISSUE\nTO ME WHEN ASTRAL TRAVEL IS CONCERNED. If you call it\na misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for Chenille\nthere. Mine does attempt to fit the facts of the\nstory, I wish the allegation of uncritical reading were not\nleveled at me so often.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5BB2B796-223A-4F8E-BBF1-57F52AA87E18@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T10:26:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322186780.74601.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that you are less careful than average. When elaborating \nan important point, then of course it would be crucial to get the \nfacts straight , but this was merely chat.\nAnd I don't see why Chenille couldn't be on Blue, though by that I \ndon't mean any kind of time displacement (I think dream travel may be \na little imprecise in terms of time without enabling time travel in \nitself).\nI'd like someone to point out the part where the murder of Chenille's \nchildren is mentioned. All I saw was a cryptic reference of intent by \nJahlee.\n\nNo dia 2011/11/25, ?s 02:06, Marc Aramin \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Someone wrote me off list that they believe it best that I be more \ncritical in my theories, because clearly Chenille was just on Green \nand there was no time to get to Blue, but they did not factor in my \nbelief that astral travel is not necessarily separate from a \ndisplacement in time. A big woman on rust in an alley who, when fed \nupon, makes Jahlee be mistaken for Chenille, is enough for me to \nassert, yes, that's Chenille in the alley, and TIME IS NOT AN ISSUE \nTO ME WHEN ASTRAL TRAVEL IS CONCERNED. If you call it a misprision, \nthen explain why he mistakes her for Chenille there. Mine does \nattempt to fit the facts of the story, I wish the allegation of \nuncritical reading were not leveled at me so often.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECF8BAC.6080106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T12:35:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOnly the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only temperature but also a matter of internal\n\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to launch Inhumi from a planet would\n\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken spinning to catch the sun's radiation\n\nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles cannot work without water-filled cells and\n\nthose cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see how it could be \naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the great secret of the \ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some degree of concerted \naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the secret we know is \nunproven. I have the same intuition you do, however---that there is \nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be burned as lianas?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECF8E6E.1050907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T12:47:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 11:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nActually, he doesn't. He is as meticulous as he can be. In this case it is completely\n\nunnecessary for inhumi to fly through space. And they don't. Wolfe would not give us such\n\nan implausible scientific impossibility unless there was a desperate need for it in the\n\nstory. And there isn't. The way inhumi travel through space is shown: on spaceships, using\n\ndeception to stow away in one form or another.\n\n\n\nRaising the possibility of their unassisted space travel is used to illustrate the power of\n\nlying, not to encourage fantastic, non-texual biological impossibilities. The inhumi need\n\nthis secret to be well-kept or they will lose the vital element of deceit they need to get\n\nonto spaceships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. But what did they do before the Whorl came? Did they never go to \nBlue?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECF8EE6.9030902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T12:49:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 11:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe way inhumi travel through space is shown: on spaceships, using\n\ndeception to stow away in one form or another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot to point out that the lander (there is only one) is not used \njust to move inhumi to Blue. It's used to move humans to Green. This \ncan't be done via void-flight." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECF91D7.7030203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T13:02:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE964E.90906@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 2:09 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBut the fact remains - there is no such reference -\n\nSergei\n\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's as plain as it could be. You can't have a translator's note for \neverything." } ] }, { "message_id": "<59FAA7FDBFBD4126A50BD5CC3EF88FC1@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T13:47:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECF8E6E.1050907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. But what did they do before the Whorl came? Did they never go to \nBlue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently there was no sapient life on Green before the Neighbours developed space technology and went there. Inhumi were just like animals, and even if they flew by accident to Blue they never caused a problem there. After the Neighbours came to Green, the inhumi preyed upon them and became intelligent. This was long before the arrival of the Whorl.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30D783C0E83143B38ACEAE351ECFBC5C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T13:53:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECF91D7.7030203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 2:09 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the fact remains - there is no such reference -\nJames Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's as plain as it could be. You can't have a translator's note for \neverything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James does not ordinarily imagine or assert non-existent textual evidence for his ideas (not everyone is so careful/scrupulous). In this case, however, he got it wrong as we all do sometimes.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECF9F30.80907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T13:59:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE8172.4070606@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 12:40 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nAnd the idea that Green and Blue come so close (in the \"conjunction\" ) \nthat their atmospheres\ntouch does not come from inhumi, it comes from Wolfe, and it is said \n(as common\nknowledge) that this allows the inhumi to cross.\n\nI think this idea is not less doubtful from the points of view of \nphysics than inhumi\ncrossing through the void. The tides would be much more catastrophic than\ndescribed by Wolfe. There is Roche limit (about 9000 km for Earth) \nwhen the\norbiting planet will be destroyed by tidal forces. Since this is not \ncorrectly described\nby Wolfe (and it is not a story told by inhumi, but Wolfe's \ndescription of\nthe system), I rather agree that in this case it is loose physics (or \nmaybe GW\nis amusing himself with some \"naive\" errors)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Conjunction doesn't need to be THAT close. Since the atmospheres can't \nactually touch (although that would be cool), the planets just need to \nbe closer than usual. if the inhumi evolved for space flight between \nGreen and Blue at conjunction they only need to be able to accomplish \nspace flight between Green and Blue at conjunction." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFA2FD.20401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T14:15:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 11:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Wolfe plays fast and loose with the laws of physics when it suits the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, he doesn't. He is as meticulous as he can be. In this case it is completely\n\nunnecessary for inhumi to fly through space. And they don't. Wolfe would not give us such\n\nan implausible scientific impossibility unless there was a desperate need for it in the\n\nstory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could not be more wrong. Wolfe practices science fantasy, not \nengineering. If the bar is \"desperate need,\" then he must be pretty \ndesperate because all his works feature physical impossibilities. In \nfact, you could say they feature miracles.\n\nWolfe is only meticulous in his lying." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T14:18:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFA2FD.20401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Muscles cannot work without water-filled cells and those cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see how it could be \naccomplished without just ignoring the problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nRight. Another thing those adamant about inhumi really flying through space ignore is \n\nthat Wolfe casts doubt on the reality of this not only through the physical impossibility\n\nbut also because text itself raises the possiblity it is a lie. Why would Wolfe do\n\nthis if inhumi space flying was simply a super-neato science thingie we are supposed\n\nto find wonder and amazement in. Wolfe puts super-neato stuff in his stories here and\n\nthere like amazing ray guns in BotNS or a Mainframe full of gods. But we are not called\n\nto question whether these really exist or not. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You also make a good pint when you refer to \"the great secret of the \ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some degree of concerted \naction. But the existence of another secret beyond the secret we know is \nunproven. I have the same intuition you do, however---that there is \nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be burned as lianas" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes I agree. Their liana phase may be part of the secret also. The secret must involve\n\nspecies preservation or it wouldn't be such an important secret. How does revealing \n\n\"you are what you eat\" threaten the inhumi in any way? Cutting off inhumi space travel\n\nand revealing the vine-aspect of their existence both provide a mortal threat to the\n\ncontinued existence and spread of their race.\n\n \n\nSkepticism based on the question of how the inhumi share their great secret is not relevant.\n\nThey have a great secret. The same question could be asked if the secret was \"you are what\n\nyou eat\". Maybe some inhumi know the secret and some don't. Doesn't matter. The question is\n\nWHAT is the great secret?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The inhumi need this secret to be well-kept or they will lose the vital element of deceit " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they need to get onto spaceships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David: Agreed. But what did they do before the Whorl came? Did they never go to Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI assume they only went to blue after Neighbors flew to Green and became corrupted by the\n\nparasites. Then the corrupted Neigbors were willing to decimate their own home planet and\n\npopulation.\n\n \n\nThere is a connecting theme here to other Wolfe books. In 5HoC, we are presented with the \n\nprinciple than an imitative species will lie and deceive even itself to maintain the illusion\n\nof the imitation. In UotNS, Zak runs away from Severian when he recognizes that the little guy\n\nwho helped him is the animal he previously encounted. Severian accepts the running away noting\n\nthat such a defense mechanism must be part of the deepest instinct of such a species.\n\n \n\nInterestingly, WOlfe's principle that a vile, imitative species can, if given the right source\n\nmaterial, become gods is duplicated in the finale of Frank Herbert's Dune series.\n\n \n\nAnyway, to sum up, I see this as a choice between a simple, cool but unexplained scientific\n\nimprobability and a socio-political-religious commentary about instinctive liars and imitators\n\nwhich extends across numerous WOlfe stories. I guess we can have both, but the Short Sun series \n\nbecomes significantly thinner if we don't catch the second possibility. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFA436.2080405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T14:20:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECF9F30.80907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (25-11-2011 13:59):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 12:40 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And the idea that Green and Blue come so close (in the \"conjunction\" )\n that their atmospheres touch does not come from inhumi, it comes from\n Wolfe, and it is said (as common knowledge) that this allows the\ninhumi to cross.\n\nI think this idea is not less doubtful from the points of view of\nphysics than inhumi crossing through the void. The tides would be much\n more catastrophic than described by Wolfe. There is Roche limit (about\n 9000 km for Earth) when the orbiting planet will be destroyed by tidal\n forces. Since this is not correctly described by Wolfe (and it is not\na story told by inhumi, but Wolfe's description of the system), I\nrather agree that in this case it is loose physics (or maybe GW is\namusing himself with some \"naive\" errors)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Conjunction doesn't need to be THAT close. Since the atmospheres can't\nactually touch (although that would be cool), the planets just need to be\ncloser than usual. if the inhumi evolved for space flight between Green\nand Blue at conjunction they only need to be able to accomplish space\nflight between Green and Blue at conjunction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jahlee goes to the trouble of saying they can't be without air for too long\n(at the same time, that implies they can survive a bit of airlessness\nbetween Green and Blue), and that's why Quetzal didn't get to the Whorl that\nway. If the whole space-crossing thing is a lie, it certainly is one with a\nlot of detail." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T14:36:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does revealing \"you are what you eat\" threaten the inhumi in any way? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because humans might change. Unlikely, but it might happen.\nThis is the core moral theme of Short Sun, IMO.\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322234540.15321.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T15:22:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECF8BAC.6080106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The implication that there is a secret beyond the secret we know is that \"Nettle must not know the secret\", which would be difficult if he were writing it down, unless he is writing for everyone but nettle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 4:35 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only\ntemperature but also a matter of internal\n\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to\nlaunch Inhumi from a planet would\n\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken\nspinning to catch the sun's radiation\n\nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles\ncannot work without water-filled cells and\n\nthose cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see how it\ncould be \naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the great\nsecret of the \ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some degree of\nconcerted \naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the secret we\nknow is \nunproven. I have the same intuition you do, however---that\nthere is \nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be burned as\nlianas?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFB446.2010607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T15:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 9:18 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI assume they only went to blue after Neighbors flew to Green and became corrupted by the\n\nparasites. Then the corrupted Neigbors were willing to decimate their own home planet and\n\npopulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the inhumi used Neighbor ships? That's possible.\n\nIs there any evidence of any character who is an inhumu who has fed on a \nNeighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a connecting theme here to other Wolfe books. In 5HoC, we are presented with the\n\nprinciple than an imitative species will lie and deceive even itself to maintain the illusion\n\nof the imitation. In UotNS, Zak runs away from Severian when he recognizes that the little guy\n\nwho helped him is the animal he previously encounted. Severian accepts the running away noting\n\nthat such a defense mechanism must be part of the deepest instinct of such a species.\n\n\n\nInterestingly, WOlfe's principle that a vile, imitative species can, if given the right source\n\nmaterial, become gods is duplicated in the finale of Frank Herbert's Dune series.\n\n\n\nAnyway, to sum up, I see this as a choice between a simple, cool but unexplained scientific\n\nimprobability and a socio-political-religious commentary about instinctive liars and imitators\n\nwhich extends across numerous WOlfe stories. I guess we can have both, but the Short Sun series\n\nbecomes significantly thinner if we don't catch the second possibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why we can't have both. Only if we insist on determining the \nabsolute truth---in a universe where such appears to be \nunattainable---does that decision need to be a binary one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFB53B.3060105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T15:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322234540.15321.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I'm not sure what would bother Nettle so much, except the notion \nthat her son is not her son or her husband not her husband. But both are \ndead by the end, so what is worse than that---except that they have been \neaten and turned into vampires? Which is not quite what the inhumi do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 10:22 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe implication that there is a secret beyond the secret we know is that \"Nettle must not know the secret\", which would be difficult if he were writing it down, unless he is writing for everyone but nettle.\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 4:35 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario would\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't only\ntemperature but also a matter of internal\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would take to\nlaunch Inhumi from a planet would\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie chicken\nspinning to catch the sun's radiation\nevenly would also require muscular action. Muscles\ncannot work without water-filled cells and\nthose cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see how it\ncould be\naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the great\nsecret of the\ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some degree of\nconcerted\naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the secret we\nknow is\nunproven. I have the same intuition you do, however---that\nthere is\nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be burned as\nlianas?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322235337.47505.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T15:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFB53B.3060105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something about Sinew and Krait? Krait is like Sinew in that the mother of Krait fed on the baby, I think (?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 7:33 AM\nAnd I'm not sure what would bother\nNettle so much, except the notion \nthat her son is not her son or her husband not her husband.\nBut both are \ndead by the end, so what is worse than that---except that\nthey have been \neaten and turned into vampires? Which is not quite what the\ninhumi do.\n\nOn 11/25/2011 10:22 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The implication that there is a secret beyond the\nsecret we know is that \"Nettle must not know the secret\",\nwhich would be difficult if he were writing it down, unless\nhe is writing for everyone but nettle.\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 4:35 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario\nwould\n\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't\nonly\ntemperature but also a matter of internal\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would\ntake to\nlaunch Inhumi from a planet would\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie\nchicken\nspinning to catch the sun's radiation\nevenly would also require muscular action." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Muscles\ncannot work without water-filled cells and\nthose cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see\nhow it\ncould be\naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the\ngreat\nsecret of the\ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some\ndegree of\nconcerted\naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the\nsecret we\nknow is\nunproven. I have the same intuition you do,\nhowever---that\nthere is\nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be\nburned as\nlianas?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFB8AC.2050304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T15:47:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322235337.47505.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but so what? If Nettle knows Sinew was bitten and even that he is \nnow dead (IIRC), what secret is left?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 10:35 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSomething about Sinew and Krait? Krait is like Sinew in that the mother of Krait fed on the baby, I think (?)\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 7:33 AM\nAnd I'm not sure what would bother\nNettle so much, except the notion\nthat her son is not her son or her husband not her husband.\nBut both are\ndead by the end, so what is worse than that---except that\nthey have been\neaten and turned into vampires? Which is not quite what the\ninhumi do.\n\nOn 11/25/2011 10:22 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The implication that there is a secret beyond the\nsecret we know is that \"Nettle must not know the secret\",\nwhich would be difficult if he were writing it down, unless\nhe is writing for everyone but nettle.\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 4:35 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario\nwould\nallow this sort of space travel. It isn't\nonly\ntemperature but also a matter of internal\ncellular pressure. But the effort it would\ntake to\nlaunch Inhumi from a planet would\nrequire muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie\nchicken\nspinning to catch the sun's radiation\nevenly would also require muscular action." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Muscles\ncannot work without water-filled cells and\nthose cannot exist in the void." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see\nhow it\ncould be\naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the\ngreat\nsecret of the\ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some\ndegree of\nconcerted\naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the\nsecret we\nknow is\nunproven. I have the same intuition you do,\nhowever---that\nthere is\nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be\nburned as\nlianas?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T16:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFB8AC.2050304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sinew died?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFC3CD.3040704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T16:35:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or is he just stuck on Green? I haven't gotten there yet but I thought \nthe Rajan said so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 11:02 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nSinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFC459.90902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T16:37:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 11:02 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nSinew died?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he IS just stuck on Green, then perhaps the \"secret\" to withhold from \nNettle is that the inhumi are keeping him alive to stay sentient, i.e., \nusing him as cattle. How that detail would bother her is unclear, if she \nfinds out Sinew is being treated that way---why would she care about the \nmotive?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFCD67.5030605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:16:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322186780.74601.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 8:06 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIf you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for Chenille there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. When Jahlee fed on a drunk woman she \ndeveloped a drunken slur which was more distinctly \"Chenille\" to the \nnarrator than the sober version. I believe Jahlee-as-Chenille permitted \nWolfe to embed a lot of clues about Chenille's relationship to Silk, \neven though I cannot claim to be absolutely clear on what they all mean." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFCE18.3040303@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:19:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECF9F30.80907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You wish me to find an exact quotation where its is said that the\natmospheres \"touch\"? I'll try.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/24/2011 12:40 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And the idea that Green and Blue come so close (in the \"conjunction\" \n) that their atmospheres\ntouch does not come from inhumi, it comes from Wolfe, and it is said \n(as common\nknowledge) that this allows the inhumi to cross.\n\nI think this idea is not less doubtful from the points of view of \nphysics than inhumi\ncrossing through the void. The tides would be much more catastrophic \nthan\ndescribed by Wolfe. There is Roche limit (about 9000 km for Earth) \nwhen the\norbiting planet will be destroyed by tidal forces. Since this is not \ncorrectly described\nby Wolfe (and it is not a story told by inhumi, but Wolfe's \ndescription of\nthe system), I rather agree that in this case it is loose physics (or \nmaybe GW\nis amusing himself with some \"naive\" errors)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Conjunction doesn't need to be THAT close. Since the atmospheres can't \nactually touch (although that would be cool), the planets just need to \nbe closer than usual. if the inhumi evolved for space flight between \nGreen and Blue at conjunction they only need to be able to accomplish \nspace flight between Green and Blue at conjunction.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFCEAE.8040102@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nRight. Another thing those adamant about inhumi really flying through space ignore is \n\nthat Wolfe casts doubt on the reality of this not only through the physical impossibility\n\nbut also because text itself raises the possiblity it is a lie. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please help me to find where this doubt is cast?\n\nSergei" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFCF61.6010909@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<1322235337.47505.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the same -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nSomething about Sinew and Krait? Krait is like Sinew in that the mother of Krait fed on the baby, I think (?)\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 7:33 AM\nAnd I'm not sure what would bother\nNettle so much, except the notion \nthat her son is not her son or her husband not her husband.\nBut both are \ndead by the end, so what is worse than that---except that\nthey have been \neaten and turned into vampires? Which is not quite what the\ninhumi do.\n\nOn 11/25/2011 10:22 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The implication that there is a secret beyond the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "secret we know is that \"Nettle must not know the secret\",\nwhich would be difficult if he were writing it down, unless\nhe is writing for everyone but nettle.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/25/11, David Stockhoff \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nSubject: Re: (urth) Like a good Neighbor\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 4:35 AM\nOn 11/23/2011 11:21 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Only the \"dry, waterless husk body\" scenario\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "would\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "allow this sort of space travel. It isn't\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "only\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "temperature but also a matter of internal\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "cellular pressure. But the effort it would\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "take to\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "launch Inhumi from a planet would\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "require muscular action. Gerry's rotisserie\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "chicken\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "spinning to catch the sun's radiation\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "evenly would also require muscular action.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Muscles\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "cannot work without water-filled cells and\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "those cannot exist in the void.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is the main difficulty, I agree. I don't see\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "how it\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "could be\naccomplished without just ignoring the problem.\n\nYou also make a good pint when you refer to \"the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "great\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "secret of the\ninhumi.\" If they have a secret, that implies some\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "degree of\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "concerted\naction.\n\nBut the existence of another secret beyond the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "secret we\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "know is\nunproven. I have the same intuition you do,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "however---that\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "there is\nsomething else they hide. Maybe that they can be\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "burned as\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "lianas?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFCFCE.1010606@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nSinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFD091.1060105@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFCD67.5030605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to me interesting idea, James - thanks -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/24/2011 8:06 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for \nChenille there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. When Jahlee fed on a drunk woman she \ndeveloped a drunken slur which was more distinctly \"Chenille\" to the \nnarrator than the sober version. I believe Jahlee-as-Chenille \npermitted Wolfe to embed a lot of clues about Chenille's relationship \nto Silk, even though I cannot claim to be absolutely clear on what \nthey all mean.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFD1E1.2040705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T17:35:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFD091.1060105@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a fact that Chenille is red and Jahlee's hair is constantly referred to \nas 'sorrel'.\n\nSergei SOLOVIEV wrote (25-11-2011 17:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to me interesting idea, James - thanks -\n\nSergei\n\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/24/2011 8:06 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for\nChenille there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. When Jahlee fed on a drunk woman she\ndeveloped a drunken slur which was more distinctly \"Chenille\" to the\nnarrator than the sober version. I believe Jahlee-as-Chenille permitted\nWolfe to embed a lot of clues about Chenille's relationship to Silk, even\nthough I cannot claim to be absolutely clear on what they all mean.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<96DF8B3A0F884EBB9C0737535FA2E10A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T18:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFD1E1.2040705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a fact that Chenille is red and Jahlee's hair is constantly referred to \nas 'sorrel'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems close enough...\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE1AD.7000100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T18:42:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFD1E1.2040705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Chenille's hair is actually brown. It is colored red. So Jahlee's \nred hair would have to reflect the way Chenille thought of herself.\n\nHowever, I believe Wolfe /is/ sending a message regarding red hair \nalthough I can't say quite what it is (Silk's reddish-blonde beard, \nRose's hair, Chenille's dyed hair).\n\nAccording to \"The Vampire: His Kith and Kin\" red-hair was a feature of \nthe Typhonians, the human sacrificial victims of Osiris. I think the red \nhair is supposed to connect characters to Typhon in some way, but can't \nput the pieces in place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's a fact that Chenille is red and Jahlee's hair is constantly \nreferred to as 'sorrel'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nThis seems to me interesting idea, James - thanks -\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. When Jahlee fed on a drunk woman she\ndeveloped a drunken slur which was more distinctly \"Chenille\" to the\nnarrator than the sober version. I believe Jahlee-as-Chenille permitted\nWolfe to embed a lot of clues about Chenille's relationship to Silk, \neven\nthough I cannot claim to be absolutely clear on what they all mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nIf you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for\nChenille there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE5A7.8060902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T18:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE1AD.7000100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (25-11-2011 18:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Chenille's hair is actually brown. It is colored red. So Jahlee's red\nhair would have to reflect the way Chenille thought of herself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? She certainly says red is her colour." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I believe Wolfe /is/ sending a message regarding red hair although\nI can't say quite what it is (Silk's reddish-blonde beard, Rose's hair,\nChenille's dyed hair).\n\nAccording to \"The Vampire: His Kith and Kin\" red-hair was a feature of the\nTyphonians, the human sacrificial victims of Osiris. I think the red hair is\nsupposed to connect characters to Typhon in some way, but can't put the\npieces in place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's a fact that Chenille is red and Jahlee's hair is constantly referred\nto as 'sorrel'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nThis seems to me interesting idea, James - thanks -\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. When Jahlee fed on a drunk woman she\ndeveloped a drunken slur which was more distinctly \"Chenille\" to the\nnarrator than the sober version. I believe Jahlee-as-Chenille permitted\nWolfe to embed a lot of clues about Chenille's relationship to Silk, even\nthough I cannot claim to be absolutely clear on what they all mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nIf you call it a misprision, then explain why he mistakes her for\nChenille there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE627.30209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:01:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFCFCE.1010606@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, so somebody please answer the question of what secret must be kept \nfrom Nettle. If Sinew can't return to Blue, she's already lost her son \nand her husband. What else is left?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nNo! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei\n\nentonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE6BF.3040405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE5A7.8060902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote (25-11-2011 18:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Chenille's hair is actually brown. It is colored red. So \nJahlee's red\nhair would have to reflect the way Chenille thought of herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? She certainly says red is her colour." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the Trivigaunte floater Horn notes that her hair is colored red." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE789.5050909@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE627.30209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I say only that we need precision. If it is said that he is on Green and\na successful leader it is not the same if he were dead.\n\nWhen we had \"Iron Curtain\" the parents of an emigrant (e.g., from USSR \nto USA)\nhad no hope that their child will return, but it was not the same to know\nthat the child is dead.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOK, so somebody please answer the question of what secret must be kept \nfrom Nettle. If Sinew can't return to Blue, she's already lost her son \nand her husband. What else is left?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei\n\nentonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFEB11.1040804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:22:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE1AD.7000100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 1:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, Chenille's hair is actually brown. It is colored red. So \nJahlee's red hair would have to reflect the way Chenille thought of \nherself.\n\nHowever, I believe Wolfe /is/ sending a message regarding red hair \nalthough I can't say quite what it is (Silk's reddish-blonde beard, \nRose's hair, Chenille's dyed hair).\n\nAccording to \"The Vampire: His Kith and Kin\" red-hair was a feature of \nthe Typhonians, the human sacrificial victims of Osiris. I think the \nred hair is supposed to connect characters to Typhon in some way, but \ncan't put the pieces in place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've been holding out on us, James. The above is a work of Montague \nSummers (1928). The passage is:\n\n\"Those whose hair is red, of a certain peculiar shade, are unmistakably \nvampires. It is significant that in ancient Egypt, as Manetho tells us, \nhuman sacrifices were offered at the grave of Osiris, and the victims \nwere red-haired men who were burned, their ashes being scattered far and \nwide by winnowing-fans. It is held by some authorities that this was \ndone to fertilize the fields and produce a bounteous harvest, red-hair \nsymbolizing the golden wealth of the corn. But these men were called \nTyphonians, and were representatives not of Osiris but of his evil rival \nTyphon, whose hair\n\nwas red.[76] Francesco Redi says: \"Fra gli Egizii era tradizione che \nTifone, il genio della distruzione, simile al Arimane Persiano al Satano \nEbriaco fosse di pelo rosso, forse per memoria di invasioni di barbari \ndi pelo rosso e presso noi dura tutta via la tradizione, 'Guardati dal \npelo rosso n? valse a toglierla la barba rossa del Redentore.'\"[77] Red \nwas the colour of the hair of Judas Iscariot,[78] and of Cain, and an \nold Latin rhyme of the thirteenth century has:\n\nMonet nos haec fabula rufos euitare\nQuos color et fama notat, illis sociare.\n\nThe Italians say:\n\nCapelli rossi\nO tutto foco, O tutto mosci.\n\nJohn Wodroephe in /The Spared Hours of a Soldier in hie Travels/, Dort, \n1623, quotes: \"Garde toi bien des hommes rousseaux, des femmes barbues, \net des ceux qui sont marqu?s an visage.\"[70] I have not met with the \nfollowing tradition save orally, but it is believed in Serbia, Bulgaria, \nand Rumania, that there are certain red-polled vampires who are called \n\"Children of Judas,\" and that these, the foulest of the foul, kill their \nvictim with one bite or kiss which drains the blood as it were at a \nsingle draught. The poisoned flesh of the victim is wounded with the \nDevil's stigmata, three hideous scars shaped thus, XXX, signifying the \nthirty pieces of silver, the price of blood.\"\n\nThe weird thing here is that both Osiris and Typhon are Pas. Maybe \nTyphon had a good side and a bad side (going along with his \"change of \nheart\" regarding bookburning), and Pas (Osiris) is his good side. So \nthen who in the Whorl is his bad side, who had red hair and was \nassociated with corn?\n\nShould we read \"good\" side as a scanned, positive personality and his \n\"bad\" side as his physical, genetic aspect, capable of popping up with \nunexpected qualities? In that case, Tussah ... Chenille ... Silk?\n\nAnd how to read the betrayer of Jesus into the story? One could make a \nconnection with serpents, the idea being that there is always one \nsomewhere in any paradise ... but I can't see anyone but the inhumi \nthemselves filling that slot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFEB5B.3080406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:24:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE789.5050909@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei, I was misremembering and I said so. Do you have an answer to the \nquestion or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 2:07 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI say only that we need precision. If it is said that he is on Green and\na successful leader it is not the same if he were dead.\n\nWhen we had \"Iron Curtain\" the parents of an emigrant (e.g., from USSR \nto USA)\nhad no hope that their child will return, but it was not the same to know\nthat the child is dead.\n\nSergei\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, so somebody please answer the question of what secret must be \nkept from Nettle. If Sinew can't return to Blue, she's already lost \nher son and her husband. What else is left?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei\n\nentonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Sinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFEE04.9080102@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:35:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEB5B.3080406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To this, yes, but I am looking for relevant quotations concerning other \nquestions\nmentioned in the recent posts.\n\nCheers\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSergei, I was misremembering and I said so. Do you have an answer to \nthe question or not?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 2:07 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I say only that we need precision. If it is said that he is on Green and\na successful leader it is not the same if he were dead.\n\nWhen we had \"Iron Curtain\" the parents of an emigrant (e.g., from \nUSSR to USA)\nhad no hope that their child will return, but it was not the same to \nknow\nthat the child is dead.\n\nSergei\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, so somebody please answer the question of what secret must be \nkept from Nettle. If Sinew can't return to Blue, she's already lost \nher son and her husband. What else is left?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei\n\nentonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Sinew died?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFEEED.1030405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEB5B.3080406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's just told you he only barged in in the interest of clearing up a point.\n\nI think there should be a large debate on just what the Secret of the Inhumi \nis. Rules: 1) It MAY be what we're told, it's no use debating that, there \nare no arguments that can help with it; 2) It MUST be something of immense \nimportance, and they-use-landers, they-breed-on-Blue and they-are-lianas, \ndon't cut it *only by themselves*. So, any ideas?\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (25-11-2011 19:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei, I was misremembering and I said so. Do you have an answer to the\nquestion or not?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 2:07 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I say only that we need precision. If it is said that he is on Green and\na successful leader it is not the same if he were dead.\n\nWhen we had \"Iron Curtain\" the parents of an emigrant (e.g., from USSR to\nUSA)\nhad no hope that their child will return, but it was not the same to know\nthat the child is dead.\n\nSergei\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, so somebody please answer the question of what secret must be kept\nfrom Nettle. If Sinew can't return to Blue, she's already lost her son\nand her husband. What else is left?\n\nOn 11/25/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No! He is very successful on Green -\n\nSergei\n\nentonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Sinew died?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFF736.1010802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T20:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEB11.1040804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Italians say:\n\nCapelli rossi\nO tutto foco, O tutto mosci. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, what does \"mosci\" mean in Italian. I'm pretty sure it does \nnot mean \"Moscow\" in this instance as Google says." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFF778.7090802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T20:15:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEEED.1030405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 2:39 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHe's just told you he only barged in in the interest of clearing up a \npoint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And obscuring the point I was making in the process, yes. Unless Sinew \nhas a lander, Nettle is never seeing him again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there should be a large debate on just what the Secret of the \nInhumi is. Rules: 1) It MAY be what we're told, it's no use debating \nthat, there are no arguments that can help with it; 2) It MUST be \nsomething of immense importance, and they-use-landers, \nthey-breed-on-Blue and they-are-lianas, don't cut it *only by \nthemselves*. So, any ideas? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there should be a large debate on just what the Secret of the \nInhumi is. Rules: 1) It MAY be what we're told, it's no use debating \nthat, there are no arguments that can help with it; 2) It MUST be \nsomething of immense importance, and they-use-landers, \nthey-breed-on-Blue and they-are-lianas, don't cut it *only by \nthemselves*. So, any ideas?\n\nI agree with that. There are other features of the secret as well, \nhowever. One is that Nettle can't be told.\n\nThe Rajan certainly thought that the main thing to know about them was \nthat they were defeatable---that they could be erased---just by not \nletting them feed on any humans.\n\nBut I certainly don't believe that just because we know they captured \none working lander (and humans to work it) that they have been doing \nthis every two years since the Neighbors reached Green in spaceships.\n\nThey don't breed on Blue, however. They can't; it's too cold. Or was \nthat another lie?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFF859.4000905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T20:19:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFF736.1010802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 3:14 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Italians say:\n\nCapelli rossi\nO tutto foco, O tutto mosci. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, what does \"mosci\" mean in Italian. I'm pretty sure it does \nnot mean \"Moscow\" in this instance as Google says." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Red hair, either all fire or all softness" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29AAFEB8-9006-4BEE-B7AD-0F17658601AA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T21:00:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<96DF8B3A0F884EBB9C0737535FA2E10A@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/25, ?s 18:11, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a fact that Chenille is red and Jahlee's hair is constantly \nreferred to\nas 'sorrel'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems close enough..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did mean it as an affinity, not a difference.\n\nWhen I first read the BSS, the references to her hair did make an \nimpression. What is it about red hair that impresses modern men, \nwhereas it was traditionally despised? Just the other day I was \nreading a mystery book in which the main investigator on one occasion \ndecides to write what he knows about the case, and what is one of the \nitems? '(her name): red-headed prostitute', when in fact the colour of \nher hair played no role in the whole story.\n\nBut for some reason at the tine I interpreted 'sorrel' as having to do \nwith the texture or shape rather than the colour. Go figure. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED00E7A.5020208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T21:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEB11.1040804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe weird thing here is that both Osiris and Typhon are Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always thought it was weird that 'Guardati dal pelo rosso n? valse \na toglierla la barba rossa del Redentore' suggests a tradition that \nJesus had a red beard. That's another parallel (intentional, I think) \nbetween Christ and the Rajan (by way of Silk's body)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T23:04:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED00E7A.5020208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "entonio wrote: .\n\n What is it about red hair that impresses modern men," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "whereas it was traditionally despised?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is still widely despised in Britain - 'Ginger' is often an insult.\n\n(Happy St Katharine's day to you all, while I'm here.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322269868.4606.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T01:11:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFEB11.1040804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quick question, James. If you don't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley is Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the lander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the alley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from Green with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from Green on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be Chenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322270049.79979.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T01:14:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322269868.4606.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there is that prominent nosed man with the scar on his eye socket in that same scene at the end of Chapter 7 of rttw or thereabouts that seems to have more importance than can be gleaned from the text. I really need to look at descriptions more carefully." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 5:11 PM\nQuick question, James. If you\ndon't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley\nis Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to\nDorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn\ndied on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his\nfinger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the\nlander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the\nalley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from\nGreen with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from\nGreen on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be\nChenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T01:53:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322269868.4606.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah that seems to explain the problem of the ring. I always thought\nthere were two different rings and tried to figure out where the\nsecond one came from. I find the theory of yours pretty sound and\neven if your not right at least you managed to point me to the real\npuzzle. What do you mean about Oreb leaving at the end of RttW\nthough?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nQuick question, James. If you don't think the big woman blitzed on\nsomething in the alley is Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body\nget to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died on Green\ntrying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the lander, and Oreb got\nthe ring either from her left in the alley or picked it up on one of the\nothers who escped from Green with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from Green on blue in\nDorp, that big woman almost HAS to be Chenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T01:54:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322270049.79979.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could the scarred man be Auk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd there is that prominent nosed man with the scar on his eye socket in\nthat same scene at the end of Chapter 7 of rttw or thereabouts that seems to\nhave more importance than can be gleaned from the text. I really need to\nlook at descriptions more carefully.\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 5:11 PM\nQuick question, James. If you\ndon't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley\nis Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to\nDorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn\ndied on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his\nfinger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the\nlander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the\nalley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from\nGreen with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from\nGreen on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be\nChenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T04:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFF778.7090802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Apparently there was no sapient life on Green before the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neighbours developed space technology and went there. Inhumi were just " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "like animals, and even if they flew by accident to Blue they never caused " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a problem there. After the Neighbours came to Green, the inhumi preyed " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "upon them and became intelligent. This was long before the arrival of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an interesting post. You see, yet you do not SEE. It is correct that\n\ninhumi were not intelligent before Neigbors arrived on Green. That's because\n\ninhumi never had an intelligent host because they had never been off Green,\n\nnor did they have the means to leave. Neighbors provided them their first \n\nspace travel.\n\n \n\nThere is no \"accidental\" flight to Blue. I hope you are not suggesting two\n\nplanets could be so close as to share an atmosphere and not crash into each\n\nother via gravitational pull. It would spell disaster if our moon got that\n\nclose. Another earth-sized planet that close would result in a collision and\n\nrapid obliteration for both.\n\n \n\nAs has been established in this conversation, inhumi spaceflight could only\n\ncome about through very highly specialized, directed evolution. First they\n\nwould have to evolve muscles which achieve near-rocket-power thrust to\n\npropel them to escape velocity. This velocity would have to be achieved long \n\nbefore they reached the end of the atmosphere because their wings rely on air \n\nto propel them. \n\n \n\nThen they would have to evolve the ability to jetison every drop of water from \n\nevery cell in their body and let their mummified, dry bodies rely on inertia to \n\naccurately get them to Blue. Then, if they didn't burn up entering Blue's \n\natmosphere they'd have to evolve the ability to regenerate their bone-dry husk \n\nof a body from Blue's salt water (which does not exist on Green).\n\n \n\nThat ain't no accident. If inhumi could do all that and fly to Blue then they \n\nare evolved to do so and would, en masse. So, how can you casually postultate \n\nthey accidentally flew to Blue but didn't cause any trouble? The entire argument \n\nis fishy (heh) from begining to end. I see no reason to ignore that stench other \n\nthan pure stubborness and a determination to remain deluded.\n\n \n\nBut, ah well, as we know, we humans are programmed to accept the big beautiful \n\nlie while patting ourselves on the back for being so clever as to notice a few \n\nsmall, nasty ones. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T04:44:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, forgot to mention- the escape velocity inhumi would have to generate would\n\nbe roughly 40,000 km/hr (25,000 mph). Now peregrine falcons have been clocked at\n\n300 km/hr, in a dive. Those clever inhumi manage to go 100x faster in a climb.\n\nAnd they don't even look like they can fly as well as birds. More like bats.\n\nFWIW. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6A3844B32662434782DD06C2FD2D2172@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T16:42:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apparently there was no sapient life on Green before the \nNeighbours developed space technology and went there. Inhumi were just \nlike animals, and even if they flew by accident to Blue they never caused \na problem there. After the Neighbours came to Green, the inhumi preyed \nupon them and became intelligent. This was long before the arrival of the \nWhorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As has been established in this conversation, inhumi spaceflight could only\ncome about through very highly specialized, directed evolution. First they\nwould have to evolve muscles which achieve near-rocket-power thrust to\npropel them to escape velocity. This velocity would have to be achieved long \nbefore they reached the end of the atmosphere because their wings rely on air \nto propel them. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then they would have to evolve the ability to jetison every drop of water from \nevery cell in their body and let their mummified, dry bodies rely on inertia to \naccurately get them to Blue. Then, if they didn't burn up entering Blue's \natmosphere they'd have to evolve the ability to regenerate their bone-dry husk \nof a body from Blue's salt water (which does not exist on Green)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That ain't no accident. If inhumi could do all that and fly to Blue then they \nare evolved to do so and would, en masse. So, how can you casually postultate \nthey accidentally flew to Blue but didn't cause any trouble? The entire argument \nis fishy (heh) from begining to end. I see no reason to ignore that stench other \nthan pure stubborness and a determination to remain deluded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, your physics is correct: while the issues of the vacuum / dryness etc. can be argued around, the problem of escape velocity can’t easily be. Nevertheless, I think Wolfe intends flight to be the means of transport. He can ignore physics when he wants to. \nBrian Aldiss wrote a book once (Hothouse) in which a far future Earth is ruled mostly by plants (Marc might like it!) and the Earth and the Moon are connected by giant spiderwebs. Compared to that, inhumi spaceflight is hard SF.\nYour idea that inhumi come to Blue by other means is reasonable — but leaves lots of loose ends and doesn’t really seem to lead anywhere. If that’s the Secret of the Inhumi, I would have imagined Wolfe would have left a few confirmatory clues for the satisfaction of those who figured it out. But it’s still not a very *interesting* secret! \n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322325892.18762.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T16:44:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean Silk (with Oreb too, I guess) leaving Blue somehow to go to the whorl at the end of Rttw: if the lander from Green was repaired and came to Blue, then there is a functioning lander on Blue in which Silk can leave. That's all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Larry Miller wrote:\nFrom: Larry Miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 5:53 PM\nYeah that seems to explain the\nproblem of the ring. I always thought\nthere were two different rings and tried to figure out\nwhere the\nsecond one came from. I find the theory of yours\npretty sound and\neven if your not right at least you managed to point me to\nthe real\npuzzle. What do you mean about Oreb leaving at the\nend of RttW\nthough?\n\nOn 11/25/11, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quick question, James. If you don't think the\nbig woman blitzed on\nsomething in the alley is Chenille, then how did the\nring from Horn's body\nget to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's\nhands? Horn died on Green\ntrying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the\nlander, and Oreb got\nthe ring either from her left in the alley or picked\nit up on one of the\nothers who escped from Green with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing\nfrom Green on blue in\nDorp, that big woman almost HAS to be Chenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of\nRttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED11FDD.8000107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T17:20:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Formal complaint", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (not to me):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) You see, yet you do not SEE.\n(...) I hope you are not suggesting (...)\nAs has been established in this conversation (...)\nSo, how can you casually postultate (...)\nThe entire argument is fishy (heh) from begining to end. I see no reason\nto ignore that stench other than pure stubborness and a determination\nto remain deluded. But, ah well, as we know, we humans are programmed\nto accept the big beautiful lie while patting ourselves on the back\nfor being so clever as to notice a few small, nasty ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman had also written (again not to me):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disagreement is one thing. Derision and ridicule is another. We all\nknow how to exit an argument and \"agree to disagree\". If instead, a\nposter chooses to resort to insulting the ideas of others, I find\nthat worthy of addressing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the same Lee Berman has had the nerve to say (not especially to me):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*We are represented in here by our ideas*. Disagreement is one thing.\nUsing derrogatory labels for other people's ideas is another. In\nhere, that is a form of personal attack. I join Mo and Ryan and\nAntonio in their distaste for it and their denouncement of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Lee Berman said and did a lot of other things, which everyone can \nconsult should there ever be an interest in it.\n\nAnd *I* say that I'm tired of Lee's boorish behaviour. Lee is the person \nresponsible for turning any discussion of ideas into a discussion about \npeople. Lee does that systematically, whenever arguments he thinks are \ncogent fail to impress others. Lee feels personally insulted every time \nsomeone disagrees with him, and immediately turns to (trying to) \nbelittle the other party by means first of (what he thinks is) \ncondescendence, then turning to victimisation should the other have the \nnerve to respond. This toxic attitude has been on display for months, \nand has the unfortunate particular of being contagious, as frequency \npushes normality and even others who do not primarily indulge in it are \nseduced by its effectiveness in chasing away whoever has enough \nupbringing not to be drawn into it.\n\nSomeone had to complain, so here I am.\n\n(As to what I'll do? Some time ago I had opted just to mark Lee's stuff \nas read by default. But when there are real discussions going on, after \none has read all the others, the temptation to see if Lee has something \nof interest to add overrules better judgement. Yes, occasionally there's \nsomething of interest in it (I've commented on it, and have known how \nnot to get *myself* entangled). However, the offensiveness to others \nthat one eventually meets is of such degree that it makes it all not \nworthwhile. As such, I'll just update my filter to delete all of Lee's \nmessages as they come in. This is not something I've ever done. I've on \noccasion temporarily ignored people's stuff. Recently, on another forum, \nI've decided to permanently ignore a certain person, but I've made it \nclear it was more due to incompatibility of style, with a bit of what I \nconsidered questionable tactics, than to offense at or lack of \nworthiness of the other bloke's contributions. Here, however, it's quite \ndifferent. There's things that my inbox just won't condone.)\n\nAnd I thought that my complaint was relevant to the List, so here it is. \nIt's just one message, anyway, hardly an avalanche." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T18:12:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<6A3844B32662434782DD06C2FD2D2172@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Again, your physics is correct: while the issues of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "vacuum / dryness etc. can be argued around, the problem of escape velocity " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "can’t easily be. Nevertheless, I think Wolfe intends flight to be the means " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of transport. He can ignore physics when he wants to. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your idea that inhumi come to Blue by other means is reasonable — but leaves lots " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of loose ends and doesn’t really seem to lead anywhere. If that’s the Secret of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Inhumi, I would have imagined Wolfe would have left a few confirmatory clues " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for the satisfaction of those who figured it out. But it’s still not a very " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*interesting* secret! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nFair enough, Gerry. I appreciate this response. I'll only add that from my \n\nperspective, which emphasizes both social sciences and biology, the science of\n\nlying and deception, be it plant, animal or human, is every bit as interesting to\n\nme as physics or astronomy might be to others. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED158FD.3090508@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:24:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322269868.4606.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the middle of ch.9 of RttW the narrator writes: \"I see I have \nconfused the rings.\nThe one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me, although it \nresembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color when it is worn; \nit was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"\n\nOf course you may dismiss it as many other things, saying that \n\"Silkhorn\" just doesnt't\nwant to recognize that it is the same ring.\n\nBut to me it is opening another line of thinking that seems to me more \ninteresting:\nwhat are these rings? What properties do they have?\n\nI remember also (but I could not find yet) the place where some of \"big \nwomen\"\nin Dorp complains \"I am so weak, mysire\" (probably it was she who was \nattacked in the alley\nby Jahlee).\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nQuick question, James. If you don't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley is Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the lander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the alley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from Green with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from Green on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be Chenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED15AD2.7010809@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:32:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no prominent nosed man with the scar on his eye socket (except \nSilkhorn)\nin the end of Chapter 7 of RttW - what is said, is (when Silkhorn enters \nthe dram shop):\n\n\"Sit down, Patera.\nAuk sat across from me, more dour and more more threatening than I ever \nimagined him\nwhen we wrote about his meeting with Silk. I blinked and he was gone, \nbut soon returned.\nEventually I called the owner of the shop over, saying quite truthfully \nthat my head ashed,\nthat I was very tired and much in need of company...\"\n\nI think these \"ghosts\" haunting Silkhorn at this moment explain also why \nhe first\ncalled Jahlee Chenille (two pages later).\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nCould the scarred man be Auk?\n\nOn 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And there is that prominent nosed man with the scar on his eye socket in\nthat same scene at the end of Chapter 7 of rttw or thereabouts that seems to\nhave more importance than can be gleaned from the text. I really need to\nlook at descriptions more carefully.\n\n--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 25, 2011, 5:11 PM\nQuick question, James. If you\ndon't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley\nis Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to\nDorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn\ndied on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his\nfinger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the\nlander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the\nalley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from\nGreen with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from\nGreen on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be\nChenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED15B7A.3060701@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The claim that Green and Blue come very close is made by Horn, not only \nby inhumi -\nand humans can see for themselves, whether it is close (so it is from \nWolfe).\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Apparently there was no sapient life on Green before the \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neighbours developed space technology and went there. Inhumi were just \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "like animals, and even if they flew by accident to Blue they never caused \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a problem there. After the Neighbours came to Green, the inhumi preyed \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "upon them and became intelligent. This was long before the arrival of the \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whorl.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an interesting post. You see, yet you do not SEE. It is correct that\n\ninhumi were not intelligent before Neigbors arrived on Green. That's because\n\ninhumi never had an intelligent host because they had never been off Green,\n\nnor did they have the means to leave. Neighbors provided them their first \n\nspace travel.\n\n \n\nThere is no \"accidental\" flight to Blue. I hope you are not suggesting two\n\nplanets could be so close as to share an atmosphere and not crash into each\n\nother via gravitational pull. It would spell disaster if our moon got that\n\nclose. Another earth-sized planet that close would result in a collision and\n\nrapid obliteration for both.\n\n \n\nAs has been established in this conversation, inhumi spaceflight could only\n\ncome about through very highly specialized, directed evolution. First they\n\nwould have to evolve muscles which achieve near-rocket-power thrust to\n\npropel them to escape velocity. This velocity would have to be achieved long \n\nbefore they reached the end of the atmosphere because their wings rely on air \n\nto propel them. \n\n \n\nThen they would have to evolve the ability to jetison every drop of water from \n\nevery cell in their body and let their mummified, dry bodies rely on inertia to \n\naccurately get them to Blue. Then, if they didn't burn up entering Blue's \n\natmosphere they'd have to evolve the ability to regenerate their bone-dry husk \n\nof a body from Blue's salt water (which does not exist on Green).\n\n \n\nThat ain't no accident. If inhumi could do all that and fly to Blue then they \n\nare evolved to do so and would, en masse. So, how can you casually postultate \n\nthey accidentally flew to Blue but didn't cause any trouble? The entire argument \n\nis fishy (heh) from begining to end. I see no reason to ignore that stench other \n\nthan pure stubborness and a determination to remain deluded.\n\n \n\nBut, ah well, as we know, we humans are programmed to accept the big beautiful \n\nlie while patting ourselves on the back for being so clever as to notice a few \n\nsmall, nasty ones. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED15BAD.2000502@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You argue with author (Wolfe), not with us or with inhumi -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nOops, forgot to mention- the escape velocity inhumi would have to generate would\n\nbe roughly 40,000 km/hr (25,000 mph). Now peregrine falcons have been clocked at\n\n300 km/hr, in a dive. Those clever inhumi manage to go 100x faster in a climb.\n\nAnd they don't even look like they can fly as well as birds. More like bats.\n\nFWIW. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322343625.95239.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED158FD.3090508@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Short Sun is so ambiguous, it is disconcerting at times, but I do think he waffles back and forth on the ring a time or two, but at one point he does claim it is Seawrack's ring. That waffling makes definitive interpretation very very difficult. I still think it's a good argument that Chenille was freed, but of course, like everything in Wolfe, it's complicated by the narrator's incompetence in identification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/26/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) chenille\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 26, 2011, 1:24 PM\nIn the middle of ch.9 of RttW the\nnarrator writes: \"I see I have confused the rings.\nThe one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it resembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color when\nit is worn; it was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"\n\nOf course you may dismiss it as many other things, saying\nthat \"Silkhorn\" just doesnt't\nwant to recognize that it is the same ring.\n\nBut to me it is opening another line of thinking that seems\nto me more interesting:\nwhat are these rings? What properties do they have?\n\nI remember also (but I could not find yet) the place where\nsome of \"big women\"\nin Dorp complains \"I am so weak, mysire\" (probably it was\nshe who was attacked in the alley\nby Jahlee).\n\nSergei\n\nMarc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quick question, James. If you don't think the\nbig woman blitzed on something in the alley is Chenille,\nthen how did the ring from Horn's body get to Dorp for Oreb\nto drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died on Green\ntrying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger.\n\nI think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the\nlander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the\nalley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from\nGreen with them.\n\nI'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing\nfrom Green on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be\nChenille.\n\nIt also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of\nRttw.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322344284.79345.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322343625.95239.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \"I see I have confused the rings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it resembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\nwhen\nit is worn; it was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Every single attempt to make an assertive claim in Short Sun is defeated by the narrator: big woman drinking when fed upon causes Jahlee to resemble chenille, Horn's ring shows up, (two things from Green make it plausible) later, narrator says he was wrong, might not be Horn's ring (take away one thing from Green, implausible again).\n\nVery frustrating. Have to choose between ignoring first description of ring and probably reason for Jahlee being called Chenille or accepting second reason (different ring) and different reason for Jahlee being called Chenille (mother fed on Chenille and drunken woman reinforced it)\n\nI think the implied salvation of Chenille is cool and that the second id of the ring is wrong, but I certainly see why NO ONE can make any definitive claims about Short Sun, there are a whole lot of contrdictary symbols and signals." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED162CD.1020105@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T22:06:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322344284.79345.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, as a truly religious man, Wolfe wants us to distinguish ourselves\n\"true miracles\" from \"false miracles\".\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\n \"I see I have confused the rings.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it resembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "when\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "it is worn; it was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Every single attempt to make an assertive claim in Short Sun is defeated by the narrator: big woman drinking when fed upon causes Jahlee to resemble chenille, Horn's ring shows up, (two things from Green make it plausible) later, narrator says he was wrong, might not be Horn's ring (take away one thing from Green, implausible again).\n\nVery frustrating. Have to choose between ignoring first description of ring and probably reason for Jahlee being called Chenille or accepting second reason (different ring) and different reason for Jahlee being called Chenille (mother fed on Chenille and drunken woman reinforced it)\n\nI think the implied salvation of Chenille is cool and that the second id of the ring is wrong, but I certainly see why NO ONE can make any definitive claims about Short Sun, there are a whole lot of contrdictary symbols and signals.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED169B7.90908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T22:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322344284.79345.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (26-11-2011 21:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \"I see I have confused the rings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it resembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\nwhen\nit is worn; it was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Every single attempt to make an assertive claim in Short Sun is defeated by the narrator: big woman drinking when fed upon causes Jahlee to resemble chenille, Horn's ring shows up, (two things from Green make it plausible) later, narrator says he was wrong, might not be Horn's ring (take away one thing from Green, implausible again).\n\nVery frustrating. Have to choose between ignoring first description of ring and probably reason for Jahlee being called Chenille or accepting second reason (different ring) and different reason for Jahlee being called Chenille (mother fed on Chenille and drunken woman reinforced it)\n\nI think the implied salvation of Chenille is cool and that the second id of the ring is wrong, but I certainly see why NO ONE can make any definitive claims about Short Sun, there are a whole lot of contrdictary symbols and signals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But again, where is it said that Chenille's children were murdered? I recall \na mention by Jahlee that someone told her and other inhumi to do it, but I \ndon't even understand when/where that might have taken place. Unless it was \non Blue.\n\nIf Oreb's ring is not Seawrack's ring, we must wonder where it came from - \nOreb just seeing it shine in the middle of a clearing is unsatifsying." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED17062.1090304@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-26T23:04:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED169B7.90908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read the end of the in teh Green Jungles - the visit to the village of \nAbanja\nand the talk with Jahlee later -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nMarc Aramini wrote (26-11-2011 21:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"I see I have confused the rings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it resembles it closely.\nThis is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\nwhen\nit is worn; it was originally\nmuch darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Every single attempt to make an assertive claim in Short Sun is \ndefeated by the narrator: big woman drinking when fed upon causes \nJahlee to resemble chenille, Horn's ring shows up, (two things from \nGreen make it plausible) later, narrator says he was wrong, might not \nbe Horn's ring (take away one thing from Green, implausible again).\n\nVery frustrating. Have to choose between ignoring first description \nof ring and probably reason for Jahlee being called Chenille or \naccepting second reason (different ring) and different reason for \nJahlee being called Chenille (mother fed on Chenille and drunken \nwoman reinforced it)\n\nI think the implied salvation of Chenille is cool and that the second \nid of the ring is wrong, but I certainly see why NO ONE can make any \ndefinitive claims about Short Sun, there are a whole lot of \ncontrdictary symbols and signals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But again, where is it said that Chenille's children were murdered? I \nrecall a mention by Jahlee that someone told her and other inhumi to \ndo it, but I don't even understand when/where that might have taken \nplace. Unless it was on Blue.\n\nIf Oreb's ring is not Seawrack's ring, we must wonder where it came \nfrom - Oreb just seeing it shine in the middle of a clearing is \nunsatifsying.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED25A2D.8040709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-27T15:41:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED00E7A.5020208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 4:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/25/2011 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The weird thing here is that both Osiris and Typhon are Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always thought it was weird that 'Guardati dal pelo rosso n? \nvalse a toglierla la barba rossa del Redentore' suggests a tradition \nthat Jesus had a red beard. That's another parallel (intentional, I \nthink) between Christ and the Rajan (by way of Silk's body)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe the key is that the Typhonians are sacrificed, as in a sense \nChrist was. Osiris, OTOH, was merely murdered." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T17:19:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED25A2D.8040709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: In the middle of ch.9 of RttW the narrator writes: \"I see I have \nconfused the rings.The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me, although it \nresembles it closely. This is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color when it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is worn; it was originally much darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI wonder if it could reflect a black hole/white fountain sort of dichotomy. Dark\n\ndefines an entrance for energy or spirit and light reflects an exit. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:33:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a quick thought. Has anyone ever considered that the ring may be\nwhat allowed Horns resurrection in the pit? This may be what was held\nto Horns forehead. IIRC there is a moment where a character looks\ninside the ring and sees a Neighbor. Maybe its this Neighbor that\nleaves the ring and possesses Horn? The color change could reflect an\nactivation of sorts. Or a deactivation depending on how you look at\nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: In the middle of ch.9 of RttW the narrator writes: \"I see\nI have\nconfused the rings.The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it\nresembles it closely. This is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\nwhen it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is worn; it was originally much darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if it could reflect a black hole/white fountain sort of dichotomy.\nDark\n\ndefines an entrance for energy or spirit and light reflects an exit. \t\t \t\n\t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2AE60.10807@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:40:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me the idea seems strange - Horn got the first ring from Seawrack when\nhe was freed of the pit. It was \"applied\" to Horn and then given to Seawrack\nwhile he still was in the pit?\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nJust a quick thought. Has anyone ever considered that the ring may be\nwhat allowed Horns resurrection in the pit? This may be what was held\nto Horns forehead. IIRC there is a moment where a character looks\ninside the ring and sees a Neighbor. Maybe its this Neighbor that\nleaves the ring and possesses Horn? The color change could reflect an\nactivation of sorts. Or a deactivation depending on how you look at\nit.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: In the middle of ch.9 of RttW the narrator writes: \"I see\nI have\nconfused the rings.The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it\nresembles it closely. This is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes color\nwhen it\n \nis worn; it was originally much darker, surely.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder if it could reflect a black hole/white fountain sort of dichotomy.\nDark\n\ndefines an entrance for energy or spirit and light reflects an exit. \t\t \t\n\t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:08:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2AE60.10807@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I cant really recall the exact order of events. If he recieved\nthe ring after he was freed then that dont make much sense. Just a\nthought I had after reading Lees post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nTo me the idea seems strange - Horn got the first ring from Seawrack when\nhe was freed of the pit. It was \"applied\" to Horn and then given to Seawrack\nwhile he still was in the pit?\n\nSergei\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just a quick thought. Has anyone ever considered that the ring may be\nwhat allowed Horns resurrection in the pit? This may be what was held\nto Horns forehead. IIRC there is a moment where a character looks\ninside the ring and sees a Neighbor. Maybe its this Neighbor that\nleaves the ring and possesses Horn? The color change could reflect an\nactivation of sorts. Or a deactivation depending on how you look at\nit.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: In the middle of ch.9 of RttW the narrator writes: \"I\nsee\nI have\nconfused the rings.The one I am wearing is not the one Sewrack gave me,\nalthough it\nresembles it closely. This is Oreb's ring. It seems the stone changes\ncolor\nwhen it\n\nis worn; it was originally much darker, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wonder if it could reflect a black hole/white fountain sort of\ndichotomy.\nDark\n\ndefines an entrance for energy or spirit and light reflects an exit. \t\t \t\n\t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3B5E1.5000305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T16:25:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<1322269868.4606.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 7:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nQuick question, James. If you don't think the big woman blitzed on something in the alley is Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's body get to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died on Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the ring he gets from Oreb is a different color. There are many \nways for the Neighbors (or even Mother) to get the *same* back to the \nRajan if that is what they want. The problem is that we don't know what \nthe ring signifies or does. The question is WHO wants to get thing ring \n\"back\" to the Rajan is key. It stretches credibility that Oreb just \nhappened upon it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Chenille was freed, Auk probably repaired the lander, and Oreb got the ring either from her left in the alley or picked it up on one of the others who escped from Green with them. I'm fairly confident that with Horn's ring reappearing from Green on blue in Dorp, that big woman almost HAS to be Chenille." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is just soooo much additional story there, built on so little. \nAnd, it is not just that Jahlee was recognized as Chenille that makes me \nthink her mother fed on her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also explains how Silk is leaving at the end of Rttw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Silk *says* how he is leaving. That's not a mystery. He is going to \nPajarocu and capturing a lander. He knows the inhumi have an active \nlanding base there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3B756.2040203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T16:31:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chenille", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3B5E1.5000305@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 11:25 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/25/2011 7:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quick question, James. If you don't think the big woman blitzed on \nsomething in the alley is Chenille, then how did the ring from Horn's \nbody get to Dorp for Oreb to drop it in the Rajan's hands? Horn died \non Green trying to get to the Lander, the ring on his finger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the ring he gets from Oreb is a different color. There are many \nways for the Neighbors (or even Mother) to get the *same* back to the \nRajan if that is what they want. The problem is that we don't know \nwhat the ring signifies or does. The question is WHO wants to get \nthing ring \"back\" to the Rajan is key. It stretches credibility that \nOreb just happened upon it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To the extent that the Neighbors are Faeries, Seawrack's ring is a \nfaerie ring. So it's going to go where the faeries want it to go.\n\nSimilarly, I read the ring as I would any faerie ring. It identifies the \nwearer as someone who has been given a faerie ring (i.e., by a faerie). \nIt doesn't need any other features or qualities." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3C5A5.1070003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T17:32:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neighbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECE964E.90906@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei,\n\nI read the conversation amid the Neighbor fires quite different from \nyou, I suppose.\nWhat is the meaning of HePenSheep when he is asked if the Neighbors will \nhim and he responds:\n\"Kill inhumi\"?\n\nIf he is saying that he himself, HePenSheep, kills inhumi, well that is \ntrue of all humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2011 1:09 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBut the fact remains - there is no such reference -\n\nSergei\n\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2011 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Are you sure? I can’t find the reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, admittedly it is not emphatic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "“Not emphatic” as in “not stated at all”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you know it is possible to read my mind only from what YOU say?\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }