{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6119", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6119, "subject": "Like a good Neigbor", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2011-11-21T02:56:18+00:00", "last": "2011-11-23T15:53:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T02:56:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neigbor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: But if Seawrack did not *truly* believe Horn was \ndead--because she had some genuine reason solid reason for believing he \nwas dead--then I have never read a Wolfe story. I honestly cannot imagine " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "why there is any debate on this issue. This is about as emphatic a signal " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that Wolfe offers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThere should not be any debate. It simply isn't very hard to see. The chapter\n\ntitle, the text formatting, the dialog; they all make it as clear as you could \n\nhope to get from Wolfe. Horn died in the pit.\n\n \n\nI fear we are seeing a self-destructive side of Marc which is painful to watch.\n\nHe is devoting so much time and effort and emotion into changing the minds of\n\npeople who are 1. genetically programmed to never admit changing their mind and\n\n2. devoted heart and soul to ridding this board of posters like Marc.\n\n \n\nGawd, its like smoking crack. You know it will never bring satisfaction but you \n\nkeep going back one more time and one more time thinking this time maybe it will\n\nwork. Crack is not your friend Marc. Crack is your enemy and you should be willing\n\nto recognize friend from foe. Don't feed those who seek your destruction. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<09AF011A3BCF42048C5B3E5E38303A59@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T12:56:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neigbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There should not be any debate. It simply isn't very hard to see. The chapter\ntitle, the text formatting, the dialog; they all make it as clear as you could \nhope to get from Wolfe. Horn died in the pit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that view is untenable, and I support my contention with events described in the text, not chapter titles and formatting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I fear we are seeing a self-destructive side of Marc which is painful to watch.\nHe is devoting so much time and effort and emotion into changing the minds of\npeople who are 1. genetically programmed to never admit changing their mind and\n2. devoted heart and soul to ridding this board of posters like Marc.\n \nGawd, its like smoking crack. You know it will never bring satisfaction but you \nkeep going back one more time and one more time thinking this time maybe it will\nwork. Crack is not your friend Marc. Crack is your enemy and you should be willing\nto recognize friend from foe. Don't feed those who seek your destruction. ;- ) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I were Marc, I should be far less offended by those who honestly disagree with his theories [which indeed to many of us are seriously out to lunch, and we honestly say so] than by your apparent belief that he can be manipulated into becoming a proxy warrior for your attempts to render this list a comfortable environment for torrents of un-thought out drivel. \n\nI have noted also your recent attempts to get Marc to change his theory so it becomes vague, ambiguous, meaningless, and therefore hard to falsify. If you were honest, you’d instead have told him what you think is right about it and what you think is wrong with it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neigbor", "in_reply_to": "<09AF011A3BCF42048C5B3E5E38303A59@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James previously argued that he was a \nNeighbour who replaced Horn, and that fits okay with his theory. But \nif it can’t be that Neighbour, it must be someone else, and the \nquestion is who?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSort of a silly question if the beings in question are plural in nature, not\nindividuals. We have a clear example of such in Tzadkiel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One body per soul, that kind of thing. Sure, you can argue around it, and \nsay the Neighbour made a copy of himself and injected it into Horn as a new soul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot a copy. A shared portioning. Soul is like fire, maybe. A plasma-like substance.\nIt can be shared without losing any of itself. Surely when Tzadkiel breaks him/her\nisland-sized self into smaller giant, man, monkey and fairy sized portions, each \none has a full measure of the original soul without loss by the original.\n \nHorn died in the pit. No worries there. The discussion ought to be more on whether\na Neighbor shared its soul to facilitate the resurrection. I think James makes a\ngood case for this. Especially when a hooved, horned animal is involved.\n \nPlease no more talk of \"which Neighbor\". It clearly doesn't matter much. They share\na soul which burns about the same in all of them. Including within SilkHorn it\nwould seem. This shared soul would help explain dream travel.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECAADBC.9030102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-21T19:59:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neigbor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2011 2:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One body per soul, that kind of thing. Sure, you can argue around it, and\nsay the Neighbour made a copy of himself and injected it into Horn as a new soul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not a copy. A shared portioning. Soul is like fire, maybe. A plasma-like substance.\nIt can be shared without losing any of itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am unsure of this, but I agree that such sharing is far from fatal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely when Tzadkiel breaks him/her\nisland-sized self into smaller giant, man, monkey and fairy sized portions, each\none has a full measure of the original soul without loss by the original.\n\nHorn died in the pit. No worries there. The discussion ought to be more on whether\na Neighbor shared its soul to facilitate the resurrection. I think James makes a\ngood case for this. Especially when a hooved, horned animal is involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Versus a tusked one .... there is a reason why Horn's boys are Hoof and \nHide." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please no more talk of \"which Neighbor\". It clearly doesn't matter much. They share\na soul which burns about the same in all of them. Including within SilkHorn it\nwould seem. This shared soul would help explain dream travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, although Nettle is not a Neighbor. But that could be considered \nan evolutionary step up." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:53:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Like a good Neigbor", "in_reply_to": "<4ECAADBC.9030102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Well, my problem with this assessment of Silk is that \nhe has no real power to heal the sick and the dying, as Severian \noccasionally showed. He can only spiritually abet them - he seems \nmuch more like an individual who might become a saint to me than a \nJesus. Sergei seems right on the money on that one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. (sorry for my previous disagreement Sergei. I misread your post).\n \nSeverian is more like Jesus with his healing and his resurrection. Silk\nis more like a saint and he does die. (I guess he is resurrected too, but\nnot in a Jesus- or Severian-type way).\n \nMoreover, Silk is unequivocally a \"nice guy\" like a saint (Francis of Assisi?)\nwhile Severian has much more of an edge to him, like Jesus who was not really\na \"nice guy\". Jesus was sarcastic and harsh in his criticisms, in a way Silk\nwould never be. Plus Jesus used a whip on people to punish them, a comparison\nWolfe has made for Jesus explicitly to Severian, in an interview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Is it impossible to equate a clone with a son? After all, if \nyou or I cloned ourselves, we would raise the result as a son. All we'd be doing \nis cutting out the middle, er, middlewoman (at least her genetic contribution)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhich is exactly what happens in 5HoC. It has been noted before but again I'll say \nthat every major theme in 5HoC is present and elaborated on in the Sun Series. I\nthink it cannot be ignored. (identity, cloning, father-son, faerie, unreliable \nnarrator etc.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }