{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6121", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6121, "subject": "Pike's ghost", "messages": 344, "voices": 15, "first": "2011-11-22T17:31:49+00:00", "last": "2012-01-10T19:58:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T17:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?I haven’t managed to read everything posted over the last couple of\nweeks, so some of these points may already have been made, in which\ncase apologies.\n\nWhat can we know about Pike’s ghost? All Wolfe has explicitly said is\nthat it isn’t Quetzal and it isn’t machine-generated, which leaves\nmany possibilities. Elsewhere, though, he did say that he had put a\nghost in one of his books to stop it being read simply as science\nfiction; and Pike’s ghost is the most likely candidate for this. So\nthere is reason to think it’s a real ghost.\n\nThere are two bits of evidence that may be relevant to this. First,\nMucor can travel outside her body — not only to possess others, but\nalso to appear in disembodied form. Apart from her appearance in this\nscene she does so at least twice — on a pool in the tunnels, and on\nthe airship. So it seems that disembodied spirits are possible.\nPerhaps they create a body out of air to make themselves visible.\n\nSecondly, though this may be rather less certain, it looks as if,\napart from the many ways the dead may be recalled — aquastors,\nmainframe gods etc. ? there is a real afterlife in the solar\nuniverse. The main evidence for this is Silk’s vision on the Aureate\nPath. I take it that the “he” who sends Silk’s parents is the\nOutsider, which suggests that they are coming from a real heaven.\n\nIf we put these two things together, ghosts — spirits of the dead\ntravelling in disembodied form — certainly seem to be possible; so\nPike’s ghost in and of itself is not particularly puzzling. What is\npuzzling is his turning up at the same time as Mucor and a duplicate\nOreb — a rather weird coincidence, if it is one.\n\nRegarding Mucor, Silk (talking to Mamelta) suggests that it was in\nfact she who summoned Pike’s spirit. It does not seem impossible that\nshe has that power — though it would be helpful if she were seen to\nexercise it elsewhere. (Of course, knowing how Wolfe thinks, it’s not\nimpossible he saw this as an _obvious_ case of her summoning a spirit,\nwhich might then help us to interpret less obvious cases elsewhere.) I\ndid once find an old theory in the archives in which Pike’s ghost\nturns up again later in the work (also in connection with Mucor); but\nrather sadly I decided it was unlikely to be true.\n\nNow Oreb. I still think that, in the dark, through a curtain, Silk\n_might_ have mistaken something else for Oreb; but I can’t think who\nelse it can be. If I remember rightly, Quetzal at this point hasn’t\nbeen alerted to Silk’s significance. So let’s accept that it’s Oreb.\nWell, since Oreb can’t fly at this moment, he must be travelling\noutside his body. Might it be that Mucor gives others the power to do\nso? It wouldn’t be too surprising if she could. Inhumi can travel\nastrally and can also enable others to do so. Hierogrammates and\nundines can walk the corridors of time and can also enable others to\ndo so. Again, this can be seen as a set-up for her doing the same\nthing later, if a case of this can be found." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC05AB.2050403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 11:31 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nRegarding Mucor, Silk (talking to Mamelta) suggests that it was in\nfact she who summoned Pike’s spirit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew, I don't know if you saw my response to you on 11/9...\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2011-November/024264.html\n... but at that point I posed that the Mucor traveling with \"Pike's \nghost\" is Mucor from Blue on her mission to locate Silk for Horn.\n\nSince I think that the Rajan MUST be able to Time-travel, it technically \npossible for him to bring her back in Time to Silk's room.\nAdditionally, notice that there is a difference between the way she \ndisapperates in Silk's room vs the way she disapperates in the tunnels \nand on the Trivigaunte floater. In those other situations, she slowly \ndisappears into a green luminescence. In Silk's room, she dissolves into \na mist, just as \"the ghost\" does.\n\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and you \nmight not have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable \ncoincidence Horn was dying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in \nfront of Hy's casket. But if dream-travel is Time-travel this would not \nhave been a problem for the Neighbors. So is possible that when Horn \nstarts his mission, Silk has already slashed his wrists. Consequently, \nwhen Mucor sets out for Silk the only one she finds is the Rajan. When \nshe sees him, she recognizes him as Silk and tell him of her mission. He \ngives her the warning that Mucor will later deliver to Horn. But then he \ndutifully takes her to the past so she can \"find Silk\". When she sees \nwhere he has taken her, she realizes that this is not the Silk she is \nlooking for ** so she returns to her body as all dream-travelers do, by \nwaking up.\n\n** If it seems that Wolfe did not provide enough clues for this, \nremember that this is the same thing as Auk kidnapping Hy for sacrifice \nand then realizing that \"she was not the woman he was supposed to \nbring.\" There was no explanation of _that_internal struggle either.\n\nAll of this *does* make it so that it is Mucor who summoned Pike's \nghost, and it gives the Rajan a reason to do so beyond \"That's what he's \nsupposed to do.\"\n\nFinally, it is important to remember that a ghost, strictly speaking, is \nthe disembodied spirit of someone who has died. The Rajan denies that \nthis is what they are to someone in Nessus. But it was technically true \nfor the Rajan (that's the maximum irony) even if one believes as I do \nthat Silk's spirit has been replaced by a Neighbor.\n\nPS. I'm so happy to return to this subject. :-D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC09FF.5030309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC05AB.2050403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 3:27 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n** If it seems that Wolfe did not provide enough clues for this, \nremember that this is the same thing as Auk kidnapping Hy for \nsacrifice and then realizing that \"she was not the woman he was \nsupposed to bring.\" There was no explanation of _that_internal \nstruggle either. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was indeed a strange moment, seemingly at right angles to what the \nsurface story required." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC0CEE.4030908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T20:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC09FF.5030309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "** If it seems that Wolfe did not provide enough clues for this, \nremember that this is the same thing as Auk kidnapping Hy for \nsacrifice and then realizing that \"she was not the woman he was \nsupposed to bring.\" There was no explanation of _that_internal \nstruggle either. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat was indeed a strange moment, seemingly at right angles to what \nthe surface story required." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should say that this event straddle's both my readings that Incus is \nfemale** and that Hy is the inhuma, Fava, in dream-travel.\nHy was not the woman he should bring, but Incus was.\n\n**Incidentally, recalled this statement by Incus in \"Calde of the Long Sun\":\n\"I was born some _seven years_ after my youngest sibling, Femur.\nConceive of my parents' _delight_, I invite you, when the passing\n_days, weeks, months_, and _years_ showed ever\nmore plainly my _predilection_ for a life of _holy contemplation_, of\n_worship_ and _ritual_, far from the _bothersome exigencies_ that trouble\nthe hours of most men.\"\n\n\"Femur\" in Latin is //feminis// which also means \"woman\".\nAssuming I am correct, this is another out-of-narrative hint (there seem \nto be only those for this) that Incus is female." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC0DB4.6050407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:01:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC05AB.2050403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (22-11-2011 20:27):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and you might\nnot have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable coincidence Horn was\ndying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's casket. But\nif dream-travel is Time-travel this would not have been a problem for the\nNeighbors. So is possible that when Horn starts his mission, Silk has\nalready slashed his wrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for Silk the\nonly one she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes him as\nSilk and tell him of her mission. He gives her the warning that Mucor will\nlater deliver to Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past so she\ncan \"find Silk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes that\nthis is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her body as all\ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'[T]he only one she finds is the Rajan' implying that the Rajan was present \nin some place at that particular moment in time, with no other Silk present \nin any place at that particular moment in time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC0DF2.1070100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC05AB.2050403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 2:27 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and you \nmight not have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable \ncoincidence Horn was dying on Green just as Silk was killing himself \nin front of Hy's casket. But if dream-travel is Time-travel this would \nnot have been a problem for the Neighbors. So is possible that when \nHorn starts his mission, Silk has already slashed his wrists. \nConsequently, when Mucor sets out for Silk the only one she finds is \nthe Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes him as Silk and tell him \nof her mission. He gives her the warning that Mucor will later deliver \nto Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past so she can \"find \nSilk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes that this is \nnot the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her body as all \ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wanted to also say that I need to break down the time-line as much as \npossible into days, weeks, months to see if I can show that Horn's \ntravels and the Rajan's overlap." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC0FD2.8080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:10:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC0DB4.6050407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and \nyou might\nnot have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable coincidence \nHorn was\ndying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's \ncasket. But\nif dream-travel is Time-travel this would not have been a problem for \nthe\nNeighbors. So is possible that when Horn starts his mission, Silk has\nalready slashed his wrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for \nSilk the\nonly one she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes \nhim as\nSilk and tell him of her mission. He gives her the warning that Mucor \nwill\nlater deliver to Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past so \nshe\ncan \"find Silk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes that\nthis is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her body \nas all\ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n'[T]he only one she finds is the Rajan' implying that the Rajan was \npresent in some place at that particular moment in time, with no other \nSilk present in any place at that particular moment in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. Thank you, Antonio." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1321996529.79352.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:15:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC0DF2.1070100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had thought about this a long time ago, but it gave me a very real headache. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/22/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike's ghost\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 22, 2011, 1:02 PM\nOn 11/22/2011 2:27 PM, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been\ntoying with and you might not have see it. I've always\nconsidered it a remarkable coincidence Horn was dying on\nGreen just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's\ncasket. But if dream-travel is Time-travel this would not\nhave been a problem for the Neighbors. So is possible that\nwhen Horn starts his mission, Silk has already slashed his\nwrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for Silk the only\none she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she\nrecognizes him as Silk and tell him of her mission. He gives\nher the warning that Mucor will later deliver to Horn. But\nthen he dutifully takes her to the past so she can \"find\nSilk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes\nthat this is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she\nreturns to her body as all dream-travelers do, by waking\nup." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wanted to also say that I need to break down the\ntime-line as much as possible into days, weeks, months to\nsee if I can show that Horn's travels and the Rajan's\noverlap.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC1136.2000408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 11:31 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nSecondly, though this may be rather less certain, it looks as if,\napart from the many ways the dead may be recalled — aquastors,\nmainframe gods etc. ? there is a real afterlife in the solar\nuniverse. The main evidence for this is Silk’s vision on the Aureate\nPath. I take it that the “he” who sends Silk’s parents is the\nOutsider, which suggests that they are coming from a real heaven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, having come kicking and screaming to the conclusion that Silk \nis positively a clone of Typhon, this actually complicates Silk's \nencounter on the Aureate Path. Let's say two of his parents are Tussah \nand Silk's Mother. Who are the other two? Typhon as clone father? Okay. \nMaybe. So who is the other mother? Not Kyrpris or even Mamelta. \"Early \nSummer\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC12F6.9090107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:24:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC0FD2.8080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 4:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and \nyou might\nnot have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable coincidence \nHorn was\ndying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's \ncasket. But\nif dream-travel is Time-travel this would not have been a problem \nfor the\nNeighbors. So is possible that when Horn starts his mission, Silk has\nalready slashed his wrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for \nSilk the\nonly one she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes \nhim as\nSilk and tell him of her mission. He gives her the warning that \nMucor will\nlater deliver to Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past \nso she\ncan \"find Silk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes \nthat\nthis is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her \nbody as all\ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n'[T]he only one she finds is the Rajan' implying that the Rajan was \npresent in some place at that particular moment in time, with no \nother Silk present in any place at that particular moment in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is that not the Silk she is looking for?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC14F0.7090203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC12F6.9090107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 3:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/22/2011 4:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and \nyou might\nnot have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable coincidence \nHorn was\ndying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's \ncasket. But\nif dream-travel is Time-travel this would not have been a problem \nfor the\nNeighbors. So is possible that when Horn starts his mission, Silk has\nalready slashed his wrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for \nSilk the\nonly one she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes \nhim as\nSilk and tell him of her mission. He gives her the warning that \nMucor will\nlater deliver to Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past \nso she\ncan \"find Silk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she realizes \nthat\nthis is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her \nbody as all\ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n'[T]he only one she finds is the Rajan' implying that the Rajan was \npresent in some place at that particular moment in time, with no \nother Silk present in any place at that particular moment in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is that not the Silk she is looking for?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because she is looking for a Silk that Horn can bring to New Viron. If \nshe takes _this_ Silk then there will _be_ no New Viron. Also, Wolfe \nseems to be excluding temporal paradoxes. Mucor will not make a decision \nto take Silk into the future since he has to stay and finish the story \nof The Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC169C.5000100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:39:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC14F0.7090203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 4:32 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/22/2011 3:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/22/2011 4:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and \nyou might\nnot have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable \ncoincidence Horn was\ndying on Green just as Silk was killing himself in front of Hy's \ncasket. But\nif dream-travel is Time-travel this would not have been a problem \nfor the\nNeighbors. So is possible that when Horn starts his mission, Silk has\nalready slashed his wrists. Consequently, when Mucor sets out for \nSilk the\nonly one she finds is the Rajan. When she sees him, she recognizes \nhim as\nSilk and tell him of her mission. He gives her the warning that \nMucor will\nlater deliver to Horn. But then he dutifully takes her to the past \nso she\ncan \"find Silk\". When she sees where he has taken her, she \nrealizes that\nthis is not the Silk she is looking for ** so she returns to her \nbody as all\ndream-travelers do, by waking up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n'[T]he only one she finds is the Rajan' implying that the Rajan was \npresent in some place at that particular moment in time, with no \nother Silk present in any place at that particular moment in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is that not the Silk she is looking for?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because she is looking for a Silk that Horn can bring to New Viron. If \nshe takes _this_ Silk then there will _be_ no New Viron. Also, Wolfe \nseems to be excluding temporal paradoxes. Mucor will not make a \ndecision to take Silk into the future since he has to stay and finish \nthe story of The Book of the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, of course. All the more reason for Mucor not to make a speech like \nthe ghost of Xmas Future.\n\nTechnically, she could have said, Psst, Silk---go to New Viron! But Silk \nwould need more than that. Similarly, the Rajan did not need to take her \nso far back (at the lander would have been helpful), but I guess his \ntime machine lacks precise controls." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECC17F9.1090807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-22T21:45:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC169C.5000100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2011 3:39 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTechnically, she could have said, Psst, Silk---go to New Viron! But \nSilk would need more than that. Similarly, the Rajan did not need to \ntake her so far back (at the lander would have been helpful), but I \nguess his time machine lacks precise controls. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that I could rationalize that since neither she nor the Rajan \nhad been to Silk and Hy's cabin before, he couldn't take her there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003d01cca9a1$dcbb6840$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T05:36:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC0DF2.1070100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nNow, I want to include a another wrinkle I've been toying with and you\nmight not have see it. I've always considered it a remarkable\ncoincidence Horn was dying on Green just as Silk was killing himself\nin front of Hy's casket. But if dream-travel is Time-travel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, I don't believe that dream travel involves time travel. And,\nyes, I've seen what you regard as evidence, but I am not persuaded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this would\nnot have been a problem for the Neighbors. So is possible that when\nHorn starts his mission, Silk has already slashed his wrists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Consequently, when Mucor sets out for Silk the only one she finds is\nthe Rajan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nLet me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the day Horn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's journey\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T13:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<003d01cca9a1$dcbb6840$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: \n**Incidentally, recalled this statement by Incus in \"Calde of the Long Sun\":\n\"I was born some _seven years_ after my youngest sibling, Femur." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Femur\" in Latin is //feminis// which also means \"woman\".\nAssuming I am correct, this is another out-of-narrative hint (there seem \nto be only those for this) that Incus is female." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is something odd about the gender of Incus. I think that's clear. \nI don't know if Wolfe was aware of and using the Latin version of femur as\na play on the word \"feminine\". It may be. But I'm 100% sure he was aware of \nsomething else.\n \nThe femur is the biggest/longest bone in the human body. The incus (middle ear bone) \nis the smallest/shortest bone. Of 200+ bones Wolfe had to choose from, these two \nchoices cannot be a coincidence.\n \nIt could simply designate the body size of Incus but that doesn't seem significant \nenough for such a cryptic but clearly presented puzzle to solve. If it relates to\ngender, as you propose, perhaps (ahem) the size of the bone is meant to reflect\ndegree of maleness.\n \nIs it possible Incus, instead of simply being female, is hermaphroditic or \ntransgendered in some way? Consider the theories regarding Hyacinth's ambiguous\ngender, based both on mythology and textual clues. Doesn't this present a very clear\nreason for a confusion between Hyacinth and Incus? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T13:40:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<003d01cca9a1$dcbb6840$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the day Horn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's journey\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well before that day." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD049F.7090506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T14:35:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 8:29 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe femur is the biggest/longest bone in the human body. The incus (middle ear bone)\nis the smallest/shortest bone. Of 200+ bones Wolfe had to choose from, these two\nchoices cannot be a coincidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting observation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It could simply designate the body size of Incus but that doesn't seem significant\nenough for such a cryptic but clearly presented puzzle to solve. If it relates to\ngender, as you propose, perhaps (ahem) the size of the bone is meant to reflect\ndegree of maleness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or something about small men and big women? Note Incus calls Femur a \n\"sibling,\" not brother or sister. Seems generally to be a sexually \nambiguous family!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it possible Incus, instead of simply being female, is hermaphroditic or\ntransgendered in some way? Consider the theories regarding Hyacinth's ambiguous\ngender, based both on mythology and textual clues. Doesn't this present a very clear\nreason for a confusion between Hyacinth and Incus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could it it be a flag for that ambiguity, rather than evidence either way?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A94D9AA8A314ABF92EB992CD6753129@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T14:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What can we know about Pike’s ghost? All Wolfe has explicitly said is\nthat it isn’t Quetzal and it isn’t machine-generated, which leaves\nmany possibilities. Elsewhere, though, he did say that he had put a\nghost in one of his books to stop it being read simply as science\nfiction; and Pike’s ghost is the most likely candidate for this. So\nthere is reason to think it’s a real ghost." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is reasonably likely. In its favour is the fact that the ghost was wearing Pike’s hat, which Silk had worn earlier that day in his expedition to Blood’s house. Not that I’m an expert in the occult, but that seems a possible way to attract a ghost. [Also, there is Blood’s genetic connection to Pike — hard to see how it fits in but I’ll set it down.]\n\nMy feeling, though, is that it’s not so much a ghost as a vision sent by the Outsider telling Silk he’s on the right track. But of course, this is something that can be both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we put these two things together, ghosts — spirits of the dead\ntravelling in disembodied form — certainly seem to be possible; so\nPike’s ghost in and of itself is not particularly puzzling. What is\npuzzling is his turning up at the same time as Mucor and a duplicate\nOreb — a rather weird coincidence, if it is one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. She is fascinated by Silk and is clearly following him since the exorcism. Next day she appears twice in the tunnels. She appears when Echidna possesses Marble, and nobody is saying that’s too much of a coincidence and Echidna must have brought her along. Even if Echidna likes her (didn’t she say that sometime?)\n\n\nOreb is the tricky one. Silk comes up with an explanation that is at least rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe that the ghost is real). I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor gives others special powers — I don’t remember any instances of it.\n\nAssuming Silk saw a flying bird, the best explanation I can think of is that Mucor possessed a bird in order to search for Silk (it’s the first time she comes to him), but that also seems to lack justification elsewhere. It’s also possible, I think, that Silk caught a glimpse of Pike’s ghost (whatever it was) and imagined the bird. That also reduces the coincidence factor.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<0A94D9AA8A314ABF92EB992CD6753129@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it possible Incus, instead of simply being female, is hermaphroditic or\ntransgendered in some way? Consider the theories regarding Hyacinth's ambiguous\ngender, based both on mythology and textual clues. Doesn't this present a very clear\nreason for a confusion between Hyacinth and Incus?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Could it it be a flag for that ambiguity, rather than evidence either way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh absolutely. Some quotes from Gene Wolfe interviews suggest that many of his \"puzzles\" are \nnot meant to have specific solutions but merely hint at a certain theme. Surely other puzzles \ndo have specific solutions and I think we can all admit that telling the difference is not \nalways easy.\n\nWe have discussed a father-son-father theme which may reflect the Dionysus(primeval spirit)-\nZeus(father)-Dionysus(son) connection. It likely also reflects the Roy Wolfe(father)-\nGene Wolfe(author)-Roy Wolfe(son) trinity.\n \nThis discussion brings to mind an adjunct theme of manly father-effeminate son. We see that with\nZeus and young Dionysus, surely. Phillip and young Alexander also. I don't know about the Wolfe\nfamily but I think it is there with Horn and Sinew/Krait. Pas and Silk also?\n \nInterestingly it seems reversed with wimpy Ouen and boiled leather and horn Severian. Of course,\nGene Wolfe was a younger author then. Ouen may reflect his own father. Roy-Gene-Roy? I get the\nsense that as a narrator, Wolfe matured from Severian into Horn.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5181D8CCAB8C4E6094A57C9B166A6EF8@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T15:50:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \nRoy Lackey:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the day Horn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's journey\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well before that day. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So either way Mucor was lying when she said she spoke to Silk. In either case, why didn’t she just tell Horn that Silk was dead? \n\nOf course what Mucor says to Horn about the danger of finding Silk is mysterious anyway, and I do not have an explanation for it at this time. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD1A8F.8000903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T16:08:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<5181D8CCAB8C4E6094A57C9B166A6EF8@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 11/23/2011 9:50 AM," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* James Wynn \n*Roy Lackey:*\nLet me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the \nday Horn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's \njourney\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well before \nthat day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo either way Mucor was lying when she said she spoke to Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?!\nReally? That's what it would boil down to for you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In either case, why didn't she just tell Horn that Silk was dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it is not that simple. I'm not sure she could have explained it \nto Horn even if she understood it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T16:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD1A8F.8000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \nOn 11/23/2011 9:50 AM, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nRoy Lackey:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Let me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the day Horn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's journey\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well before that day. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo either way Mucor was lying when she said she spoke to Silk. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?!\nReally? That's what it would boil down to for you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody said anything about “boiling down”. But it would be a facet of what happened, worthy of thinking about, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In either case, why didn’t she just tell Horn that Silk was dead? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it is not that simple. I'm not sure she could have explained it to Horn \neven if she understood it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunately we have you to explain it to us!\n\nIf Silk slit his wrists a long time previously, did Mucor time travel? Or see SilkHorn stumbling around Viron? If it was long enough ago he might have been already in Gaon, of course. \n\n- Gerry" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T16:47:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm...I don't think Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket long before\nthe events of Horn's journey OBW, or even during them. Reasoning:\nHoof/Hide have become significantly older by the time the Narrator\nmeets them. That already implies a significant time has passed since\nHorn left New Viron; it won't do to _shorten_ that time by pushing\nHorn's entry into Silk's body back in time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD26D5.2060407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:01:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (23-11-2011 16:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm...I don't think Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket long before\nthe events of Horn's journey OBW, or even during them. Reasoning:\nHoof/Hide have become significantly older by the time the Narrator\nmeets them. That already implies a significant time has passed since\nHorn left New Viron; it won't do to _shorten_ that time by pushing\nHorn's entry into Silk's body back in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They only have to do the opposite and say that Silk was bleeding long after \nHorn was dying on Green." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD29FE.90903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 10:47 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUmmm...I don't think Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket long before\nthe events of Horn's journey OBW, or even during them. Reasoning:\nHoof/Hide have become significantly older by the time the Narrator\nmeets them. That already implies a significant time has passed since\nHorn left New Viron; it won't do to_shorten_ that time by pu" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, although I have not broken down the time-line for the SS to \nweeks and months, I believe the time for the return of meeting Hide/Hoof \nis much shorter than I expected (based on when they say they left home). \nI've often said that the time-line SS is screwy and this was part of \nwhat I was referring to. Kids grow very fast at Hoof and Hide's age." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD2B22.30703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* James Wynn \nNo. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well \nbefore that day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo either way Mucor was lying when she said she spoke to Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "?!\nReally? That's what it would boil down to for you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody said anything about \"boiling down\". But it would be a facet of \nwhat happened, worthy of thinking about, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it comes down to lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In either case, why didn't she just tell Horn that Silk was dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because it is not that simple. I'm not sure she could have explained \nit to Horn\neven if she understood it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fortunately we have you to explain it to us!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. [I have unrecorded thoughts here. Use the powers of subtext to \ndivine them.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Silk slit his wrists a long time previously, did Mucor time \ntravel? Or see SilkHorn stumbling around Viron? If it was long \nenough ago he might have been already in Gaon, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be the most self-evidently convenient if he met Mucor \"on \nmission\" after he arrived at Blanco." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7918BAAE66B346F1AF00B8709B8854BE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T17:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD2B22.30703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " If Silk slit his wrists a long time previously, did Mucor time travel? Or see SilkHorn stumbling around Viron? If it was long enough ago he might have been already in Gaon, of course. \n\n It would be the most self-evidently convenient if he met Mucor \"on mission\" after he arrived at Blanco. \n\nMarble thinks Mucor takes a long time because she has to go to the Whorl to find Silk. But that’s hardly a crushing objection.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD3E51.7090102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T18:41:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<0A94D9AA8A314ABF92EB992CD6753129@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we put these two things together, ghosts — spirits of the dead\ntravelling in disembodied form — certainly seem to be possible; so\nPike’s ghost in and of itself is not particularly puzzling. What is\npuzzling is his turning up at the same time as Mucor and a duplicate\nOreb — a rather weird coincidence, if it is one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 8:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. She is fascinated by \nSilk and is clearly following him since the exorcism. Next day she \nappears twice in the tunnels. She appears when Echidna possesses \nMarble, and nobody is saying that’s too much of a coincidence and \nEchidna must have brought her along. Even if Echidna likes her (didn’t \nshe say that sometime?)\n\nOreb is the tricky one. Silk comes up with an explanation that is at \nleast rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe \nthat the ghost is real). I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor \ngives others special powers — I don’t remember any instances of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no precedence for Mucor possessing and animal to travel to a \nlocation and then \"chaining\" into an astral appearance. Given her \napparent powers, I can't imagine why such a thing would even be \nnecessary. This is a theory utterly without foundation. It has a feel of \ndesperation about it. I do not like.\n\nIt is not that the appearances of Pike's ghost, or Mucor, or Oreb in the \nwindow is a such a big problem on their own. The problem is their near \nsimultaneous appearance, and the surrounding facts. Any serious theory \non this event needs to explain how the appearance of all three fit \ntogether. Mucor and Oreb are linked by being in the room together when \nSilk awakes. The likelihood that Oreb is astral connects them both to \nthe Rajan. The subsequent appearance of Pike's ghost acting more like \nsomething from \"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini\" than \"Wuthering \nHeights\" or \"A Christmas Carol\" makes him plausibly associated with the \nRajan (whom we haven't seen previously but must be there unless Oreb \nlied about being in the room)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD3E51.7090102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we put these two things together, ghosts — spirits of the dead\ntravelling in disembodied form — certainly seem to be possible; so\nPike’s ghost in and of itself is not particularly puzzling. What is\npuzzling is his turning up at the same time as Mucor and a duplicate\nOreb — a rather weird coincidence, if it is one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 8:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. She is fascinated by \nSilk and is clearly following him since the exorcism. Next day she \nappears twice in the tunnels. She appears when Echidna possesses \nMarble, and nobody is saying that’s too much of a coincidence and \nEchidna must have brought her along. Even if Echidna likes her (didn’t \nshe say that sometime?)\n\nOreb is the tricky one. Silk comes up with an explanation that is at \nleast rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe \nthat the ghost is real). I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor \ngives others special powers — I don’t remember any instances of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no precedence for Mucor possessing and animal to travel to a \nlocation and then \"chaining\" into an astral appearance. Given her \napparent powers, I can't imagine why such a thing would even be \nnecessary. This is a theory utterly without foundation. It has a feel of \ndesperation about it. I do not like.\n\nIt is not that the appearances of Pike's ghost, or Mucor, or Oreb in the \nwindow is a such a big problem on their own. The problem is their near \nsimultaneous appearance, and the surrounding facts. Any serious theory \non this event needs to explain how the appearance of all three fit \ntogether. Mucor and Oreb are linked by being in the room together when \nSilk awakes. The likelihood that Oreb is astral connects them both to \nthe Rajan. The subsequent appearance of Pike's ghost acting more like \nsomething from \"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini\" than \"Wuthering \nHeights\" or \"A Christmas Carol\" makes him plausibly associated with the \nRajan (whom we haven't seen previously but must be there unless Oreb \nlied about being in the room)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6050BDD68F334DE8972B756E3633B2E8@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T19:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD3E51.7090102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n There is no precedence for Mucor possessing and animal to travel to a \n location and then \"chaining\" into an astral appearance. Given her \n apparent powers, I can't imagine why such a thing would even be \n necessary. This is a theory utterly without foundation. It has a feel of \n desperation about it. I do not like.\n\n It is not that the appearances of Pike's ghost, or Mucor, or Oreb in the \n window is a such a big problem on their own. The problem is their near \n simultaneous appearance, and the surrounding facts. Any serious theory \n on this event needs to explain how the appearance of all three fit \n together. Mucor and Oreb are linked by being in the room together when \n Silk awakes. The likelihood that Oreb is astral connects them both to \n the Rajan. The subsequent appearance of Pike's ghost acting more like \n something from \"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini\" than \"Wuthering \n Heights\" or \"A Christmas Carol\" makes him plausibly associated with the \n Rajan (whom we haven't seen previously but must be there unless Oreb \n lied about being in the room).\nOr unless there was some other reason for Silk thinking he saw Oreb. At least two have been proposed.\n\nIf Oreb isn’t an astral traveller, there’s no link to the Rajan at all. Silk doesn’t see the Rajan; he sees Pike. [And unlike the case with Oreb, he sees him in the light. Granted he’s a ghost, but still...]\n\nYour argument depends on Silk unerringly recognising Oreb in the dark, Oreb being an astral traveller, and Silk completely failing to recognise his 43-year old one-eyed self in the light, and thinking instead that he sees his 70+ year old predecessor. Oh, and astral travel involving time-travel (so long as it’s meaningless time travel).\n\nIs my theory so “utterly without foundation” and “desperate” by comparison?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<015401ccaa2c$737da9c0$c2d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:08:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD2B22.30703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted Gerry and wrote:\nIf Silk slit his wrists a long time previously, did Mucor time\ntravel? Or see SilkHorn stumbling around Viron? If it was long\nenough ago he might have been already in Gaon, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be the most self-evidently convenient if he met Mucor \"on\nmission\" after he arrived at Blanco." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry has anticipated me.\n\nWe are told at the beginning of OBW that the next Conjunction is two years\naway. There is no getting around this fact. It is important and I will come\nback to it. It can't be explained away by time travel. I could cite page\nnumbers, but it seems to be largely a waste of my time, so I will outline\nthe situation briefly.\n\nIt was summer when Horn left Lizard. The time period from when Horn left\nMucor's Rock until he left for Green on the Pajarocu lander was a span of\nmonths, but probably less than six months. That was followed by no more than\na few weeks on the lander. From his arrival on Green until his death in\nanother lander on Green was about six months. That adds up to about a year\nof time from the start of Horn's journey to his spirit being sent into\nSilk's body on the LSW.\n\nThe time spent by Silkhorn on the LSW, after Horn's spirit was sent into\nSilk's body, was less than two weeks. Allow a few more weeks for travel back\nto Blue on Hari Mau's lander. No more than six weeks after Horn died on\nGreen, Silkhorn was sitting pretty as the Rajan of Gaon. Soon after arrival\nin Gaon, Oreb flew away and was gone for about a year. There was time spent\non the war with Han. Winter had just begun when Silkhorn left Gaon.\nConjunction came while Silkhorn was in Gaon.\n\nWinter came on while Silkhorn was in Blanko and continued while he was in\nDorp. It was still very cold when he reached New Viron, but spring was not\nfar away. No matter how you cut it, more that two years elapsed on Blue\nbetween Horn's departure from Lizard and Silkhorn's arrival in New Viron, as\ndetermined by Conjunction.\n\nAs I have said, I do not believe that dream travel involves time travel.\nNeither do I believe that what Mucor does when she sends her spirit forth is\nthe same thing that Silkhorn does when he dream travels. After all, her\ntalent was a genetic freak that had nothing to do with Neighbors or inhumi.\nBe that as it may, if Mucor sent her spirit to the LSW, that day at Mucor's\nRock, as the text has it, she would have found both Silk and Hy to be alive.\nIf you want to postulate that she sent her spirit back in time to any moment\nbefore Horn's death on Green, an event which was still a year in her future,\nSilkhorn simply would not yet exist.\n\nThat paradox aside, if you postulate that she went back in time to when\nSilkhorn was in Blanko, then Hy had already been dead for at least two years\nand Horn's proposed trip to the LSW could not possibly have put her or Silk\nin jeopardy because he wasn't there and she was dead. Further, Mucor did\ncontact Silkhorn twice while he was in Blanko, both times about Babbie and\nboth times in \"real time\", i.e. the \"present\" of the story.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD73FE.1060004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T22:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<015401ccaa2c$737da9c0$c2d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2011 4:08 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n[Roy offers a time-line]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have some problems with a couple presumptions in your time-line, and \nthere are some important mentions of time that you have not brought up. \nHowever, I'm not inclined to critique your time-line when I haven't \nproduced one myself because that would be insulting. So I shall concede \nto you the argument at this point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I have said, I do not believe that dream travel involves time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the issue of the second Oreb and on the grandmother's tale you've \nnever proposed an explanation that I know of.\nI cannot argue with \"I don't believe it\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither do I believe that what Mucor does when she sends her spirit forth is\nthe same thing that Silkhorn does when he dream travels. [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor do I. I have repeatedly noted the difference in the way she \ndisappears in Silk's room vs how she disappears from astral travel in \nthe tunnels and on the Trivigaunte floater." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That paradox aside, if you postulate that she went back in time to when\nSilkhorn was in Blanko, then Hy had already been dead for at least two years\nand Horn's proposed trip to the LSW could not possibly have put her or Silk\nin jeopardy because he wasn't there and she was dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"if you postulate that she went back in time to when Silkhorn was in Blanko\"\nDo you mean \"forward in time\"?\n\nBe that as it may. Neither Silk nor Hy were in any danger for Horn \ncoming there. After \"Horn's\" death on Green, our Narrator wanders all \nabout Viron without any fear or threat. Perhaps you think Silk or Mucor \nwere lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Further, Mucor did\ncontact Silkhorn twice while he was in Blanko, both times about Babbie and\nboth times in \"real time\", i.e. the \"present\" of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. So what?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD73FE.1060004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nYou know, having come kicking and screaming to the conclusion that Silk\nis positively a clone of Typhon, this actually complicates Silk's\nencounter on the Aureate Path. Let's say two of his parents are Tussah\nand Silk's Mother. Who are the other two? Typhon as clone father? Okay.\nMaybe. So who is the other mother? Not Kyrpris or even Mamelta. \"Early\nSummer\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I have always seen the two parents as evidence that Silk is not\na clone. Also, it still seems to me that Silk's response is best\nexplained if he recognises his mother, and this makes most sense if\nshe is Mamelta; (her being Kypris would also explain it, but would\nbring problems of its own)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nMy feeling, though, is that it’s not so much a ghost as a vision sent by the Outsider telling Silk he’s on the right track. ?But of course, this is something that can be both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Outsider can certainly send spirits of the dead. If it were\njust a vision, though, and not a spirit, one would have to find soem\nother explanation for Wolfe's remarks about putting a ghost in one of\nhis works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. “She is fascinated by Silk and is clearly following him since the exorcism. ?Next day she appears twice in the tunnels. ?She appears when Echidna possesses Marble, and nobody is saying that’s too much of a coincidence and Echidna must have brought her along. ?Even if Echidna likes her (didn’t she say that sometime”)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mucor's appearance is indeed not a problem. I'm treating that as the\nbasic fact which needs no special explanation, and the other two as\nconsequences of it. The problem is three ghostly appearances at the\nsame time. it seems unlikely they have three separate explanations. To\nbe sure, coincidences do happen in the solar universe, and that's not\ntoo surprising in a world which has a providential God, but in this\ncase Silk actually theorises about a connection between Mucor and\nPike, which would be an oddly misleading clue if it was just an\nacident that they were both there at once. (Silk's theory might be\nwrong, but in the absence of something very clear which confounds it,\nit seems reasonable to think he's right.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oreb is the tricky one. ?Silk comes up with an explanation that is at least rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe that the ghost is real). ?I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor gives others special powers — I don’t remember any instances of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you might say 'except this one' - which, given Wolfe's known\ntendency to think things are obvious when they aren't, can't be ruled\nout. But it doesn't seem too surprising to me - if she can summon\nspirits of the dead, why might she not also summon spirits of the\nliving - given that the living have spirits which can leave their\nbodies, as her own case implies?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECD8029.4020404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (23-11-2011 23:11):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is three ghostly appearances at the same time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily. That can be explained away plausibly. Imo and that of \nothers, the problem is the second Oreb.\nThere is *that I know of* no *credible* way to have a second Oreb there that\ndoesn't involve good old time travel. And saying it wasn't Oreb isn't\nenough: GW uses so much ink with it that there *must* be something there.\nOther than that, I find that time-travel *as part of* dream-travel is very\nunsatisfactory (other than some fluctuation, but that very restricted),\nunless it's key to some other revelation which may be there but I haven't\nseen yet (f.i., it's key to Marc's theory, but as I said I can't make his\ntheory work for me)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<89D5EBBE219B438280ABD4CF7A76E1BF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-23T23:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My feeling, though, is that it’s not so much a ghost as a vision sent by \nthe Outsider\nSilk he’s on the right track. But of course, this is something that can \nbe both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the Outsider can certainly send spirits of the dead. If it were\njust a vision, though, and not a spirit, one would have to find soem\nother explanation for Wolfe's remarks about putting a ghost in one of\nhis works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but maybe the ghost is not Pike but some other character in some other \nbook. Pike does indeed seem like the best candidate, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. She is fascinated by \nSilk\n and is clearly following him since the exorcism. Next day she appears \ntwice in\nthe tunnels. She appears when Echidna possesses Marble, and nobody is \nsaying\nthat’s too much of a coincidence and Echidna must have brought her \nalong. Even\nif Echidna likes her (didn’t she say that sometime?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mucor's appearance is indeed not a problem. I'm treating that as the\nbasic fact which needs no special explanation, and the other two as\nconsequences of it. The problem is three ghostly appearances at the\nsame time. it seems unlikely they have three separate explanations. To\nbe sure, coincidences do happen in the solar universe, and that's not\ntoo surprising in a world which has a providential God, but in this\ncase Silk actually theorises about a connection between Mucor and\nPike, which would be an oddly misleading clue if it was just an\nacident that they were both there at once. (Silk's theory might be\nwrong, but in the absence of something very clear which confounds it,\nit seems reasonable to think he's right.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall Silk's theorising. But there *is* actually a connection \nbetween Mucor and Pike: she is his granddaughter, even if fewer realise it \nthan Wolfe expected. Could that be the purpose of Pike's ghost?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oreb is the tricky one. Silk comes up with an explanation that is at\nleast rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe that\nthe ghost is real). I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor gives \nothers\nspecial powers — I don’t remember any instances of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you might say 'except this one' - which, given Wolfe's known\ntendency to think things are obvious when they aren't, can't be ruled\nout. But it doesn't seem too surprising to me - if she can summon\nspirits of the dead, why might she not also summon spirits of the\nliving - given that the living have spirits which can leave their\nbodies, as her own case implies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's fairly similar to my argument that she might have searched for Silk by \npossessing a bird. It's reasonably plausible in terms of stuff Mucor can \ndo, but there's no other obvious incident of her doing such a thing.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T03:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<89D5EBBE219B438280ABD4CF7A76E1BF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silks theorising on Mucor and Pike occurs near the end of Lake Ch. 9.\nAnd Mucor is not actually Bloods daughter thus there is no familial\nrelation to Pike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My feeling, though, is that it’s not so much a ghost as a vision sent by\n\nthe Outsider\nSilk he’s on the right track. But of course, this is something that can\n\nbe both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the Outsider can certainly send spirits of the dead. If it were\njust a vision, though, and not a spirit, one would have to find soem\nother explanation for Wolfe's remarks about putting a ghost in one of\nhis works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but maybe the ghost is not Pike but some other character in some other\nbook. Pike does indeed seem like the best candidate, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don’t see Mucor’s appearance as a real problem. She is fascinated by\nSilk\n and is clearly following him since the exorcism. Next day she appears\ntwice in\nthe tunnels. She appears when Echidna possesses Marble, and nobody is\nsaying\nthat’s too much of a coincidence and Echidna must have brought her\nalong. Even\nif Echidna likes her (didn’t she say that sometime?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mucor's appearance is indeed not a problem. I'm treating that as the\nbasic fact which needs no special explanation, and the other two as\nconsequences of it. The problem is three ghostly appearances at the\nsame time. it seems unlikely they have three separate explanations. To\nbe sure, coincidences do happen in the solar universe, and that's not\ntoo surprising in a world which has a providential God, but in this\ncase Silk actually theorises about a connection between Mucor and\nPike, which would be an oddly misleading clue if it was just an\nacident that they were both there at once. (Silk's theory might be\nwrong, but in the absence of something very clear which confounds it,\nit seems reasonable to think he's right.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall Silk's theorising. But there *is* actually a connection\nbetween Mucor and Pike: she is his granddaughter, even if fewer realise it\nthan Wolfe expected. Could that be the purpose of Pike's ghost?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oreb is the tricky one. Silk comes up with an explanation that is at\nleast rational but nobody believes (maybe that’s a hint from Wolfe that\nthe ghost is real). I’m not convinced by your idea that Mucor gives\nothers\nspecial powers — I don’t remember any instances of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, you might say 'except this one' - which, given Wolfe's known\ntendency to think things are obvious when they aren't, can't be ruled\nout. But it doesn't seem too surprising to me - if she can summon\nspirits of the dead, why might she not also summon spirits of the\nliving - given that the living have spirits which can leave their\nbodies, as her own case implies?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's fairly similar to my argument that she might have searched for Silk by\npossessing a bird. It's reasonably plausible in terms of stuff Mucor can\ndo, but there's no other obvious incident of her doing such a thing.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00bf01ccaa79$52d112a0$7ecd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-24T07:18:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECD73FE.1060004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI have some problems with a couple presumptions in your time-line, and\nthere are some important mentions of time that you have not brought up.\nHowever, I'm not inclined to critique your time-line when I haven't\nproduced one myself because that would be insulting. So I shall concede\nto you the argument at this point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Conjunction is not a presumption. The rest was just a bonus, for context.\nConjunction establishes that at least two years passed between Horn asking\nMucor to search for Silk and Silkhorn's departure from Gaon. This was in\nresponse to:\n\n**********" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me see if I have this straight. You are suggesting that on the day\nHorn\nvisited Mucor and Marble at Mucor's Rock, at the beginning of Horn's\njourney\nto Pajarocu, Silk was bleeding beside Hy's casket?\n\nNo. I am posing that Silk was bleeding before Hy's casket well before that\nday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**********\n\nThere isn't a lot of time for that to have happened that isn't accounted for\nin the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I have said, I do not believe that dream travel involves time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the issue of the second Oreb and on the grandmother's tale you've\nnever proposed an explanation that I know of.\nI cannot argue with \"I don't believe it\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silkhorn explicitly stated that he had gotten inside Fava's tale and changed\nit, which she later confirmed. If he did it to her story, he can do it to\nanother. As for the bird in Silk's bedroom, you postulated recently that\nOreb had been possessed by Pas at the time he \"died\" before Silk could\nsacrifice him. You also recently noted that possessed humans can perform\nfeats they would not otherwise be able to perform. Pas could have done that\nwith Oreb, damaged wing and all, and the bird not remember the event. Not\nthat I believe it, but I guess you can't argue with yourself, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neither do I believe that what Mucor does when she sends her spirit\nforth is\nthe same thing that Silkhorn does when he dream travels. [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor do I. I have repeatedly noted the difference in the way she\ndisappears in Silk's room vs how she disappears from astral travel in\nthe tunnels and on the Trivigaunte floater." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the differences among the times she disappears are\nsignificant. Five such occasions have been mentioned, not counting mirrors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That paradox aside, if you postulate that she went back in time to when\nSilkhorn was in Blanko, then Hy had already been dead for at least two\nyears\nand Horn's proposed trip to the LSW could not possibly have put her or\nSilk\nin jeopardy because he wasn't there and she was dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"if you postulate that she went back in time to when Silkhorn was in\nBlanko\"\nDo you mean \"forward in time\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, back in time. I only mentioned Blanko because you did, in response to\nGerry. I included both comments in my previous post. Or see the quote from\nyou above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Be that as it may. Neither Silk nor Hy were in any danger for Horn\ncoming there. After \"Horn's\" death on Green, our Narrator wanders all\nabout Viron without any fear or threat. Perhaps you think Silk or Mucor\nwere lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Further, Mucor did\ncontact Silkhorn twice while he was in Blanko, both times about Babbie\nand\nboth times in \"real time\", i.e. the \"present\" of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's true. So what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, because you said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be the most self-evidently convenient if he met Mucor \"on\nmission\" after he arrived at Blanco." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There isn't enough time for Horn's journey to overlap Silkhorn's after he\narrived in Blanko.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-24T12:49:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI don't recall Silk's theorising. But there *is* actually a connection\nbetween Mucor and Pike: she is his granddaughter, even if fewer realise it\nthan Wolfe expected. Could that be the purpose of Pike's ghost?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silks theorising on Mucor and Pike occurs near the end of Lake Ch. 9.\nAnd Mucor is not actually Bloods daughter thus there is no familial\nrelation to Pike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes — I have read it now. Interesting that Silk no longer mentions Oreb, probably writing him off as appearing only in his imagination. Instead he thinks that Mucor’s appearance somehow made Pike’s possible, and that she, rather than Pike, made the noises upstairs afterwards.\nI think Silk is right, and that the connection may be that she is Pike’s grandaughter. True, she is not genetically related to him, but in Long Sun Wolfe clearly treats adoptive relationships as similar in significance to genetic ones, so I don’t think that matters.\nMarble certainly refers to Mucor as her grandaughter, and she is even less genetically related to Mucor than Pike is!\nMaybe Pike’s ghost is a clue set by Wolfe to point towards Blood being Pike’s son. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000f01ccaafb$095ffaa0$e7cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-24T22:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mucor was naked on the night of Pike's ghost, just as she had been naked the\nfirst time Silk saw her in the flesh the night before at Blood's villa. When\nhe was questioning Oreb about her, he described her as a \"girl\" or \"thin\nyoung woman\". She was about fifteen; Silk was twenty-three.\n\nAt Mucor's Rock, when Horn asked her to find Silk for him, she was not\nnaked. She had been on Blue for twenty years, more than half her life. She\nwas the same age as Horn, and he had not recognized her until he looked into\nher eyes.\n\nTaken together, these elements strongly suggest that the Mucor Silk saw in\nhis manse on the night of Pike's ghost looked little like the 35-year-old\nMucor Horn saw on Mucor's Rock. It's doubtful that young Silk would even\nhave recognized the older woman.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFC869.5010804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T16:55:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<00bf01ccaa79$52d112a0$7ecd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAs for the bird in Silk's bedroom, you postulated recently that\nOreb had been possessed by Pas at the time he \"died\" before Silk could\nsacrifice him. You also recently noted that possessed humans can perform\nfeats they would not otherwise be able to perform. Pas could have done that\nwith Oreb, damaged wing and all, and the bird not remember the event. Not\nthat I believe it, but I guess you can't argue with yourself, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no interest in arguing with myself but why would /you/ assert I \ncan't do that when you are arguing with yourself right here? Roy says \n\"I don't believe that Pas possessed Oreb but I hereby propose that DID \npossess Oreb and send him into Silk's room.\"\n\nThat's a solution? Why do we need to complicate things with a possession \nat all? Why not have Oreb hop up the stairs into Silk's room and jump \ndown into the bushes? There has NEVER been a problem with getting Oreb \ninto Silk's room or out. The problem has always been why he (or Pas for \nthat matter) would go there in the first place and why he would continue \nto lie about it after Silk told him he wouldn't be punished for it. This \nis rank sophistry.\n\nHere's simpler solution for you.../Mint/ sneaked into Silk's residence, \ngrabbed Oreb and left him there. But /first/ she gave him a rophenol so \nhe wouldn't remember it. Why would she do that? Who the hell cares? At \nleast it avoids considering time-travel. After all, this is a Wolfe \nnovel set in Briah. I mean, how believable is it that there would be \nTime-travel?\n\nI'm going to address the rest of your post, but I want you to know that \nit is because I would like very much to satisfactorily figure out what \nis going on the LS/SS and I'm pretty sure your timeline doesn't cut it. \nI am NOT doing it to win the crown of King Debater of the Urth List. Nor \nI am doing it because I love chasing your arguments around the rose bush." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004c01ccaba4$fc6893c0$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFC869.5010804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:\nAs for the bird in Silk's bedroom, you postulated recently that\nOreb had been possessed by Pas at the time he \"died\" before Silk could\nsacrifice him. You also recently noted that possessed humans can perform\nfeats they would not otherwise be able to perform. Pas could have done\nthat\nwith Oreb, damaged wing and all, and the bird not remember the event." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that I believe it, but I guess you can't argue with yourself, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no interest in arguing with myself but why would /you/ assert I\ncan't do that when you are arguing with yourself right here? Roy says\n\"I don't believe that Pas possessed Oreb but I hereby propose that DID\npossess Oreb and send him into Silk's room.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you could have read my paragraph and come to the conclusion\nthat I thought Pas was in Oreb at all. I said that I didn't believe it,\nperiod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a solution? Why do we need to complicate things with a possession\nat all? Why not have Oreb hop up the stairs into Silk's room and jump\ndown into the bushes? There has NEVER been a problem with getting Oreb\ninto Silk's room or out. The problem has always been why he (or Pas for\nthat matter) would go there in the first place and why he would continue\nto lie about it after Silk told him he wouldn't be punished for it. This\nis rank sophistry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are the one who brought up the possession of Oreb by Pas. I carried the\nthought experiment a step further.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ECFE964.8030507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T19:15:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<004c01ccaba4$fc6893c0$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI don't see how you could have read my paragraph and come to the conclusion\nthat I thought Pas was in Oreb at all. I said that I didn't believe it,\nperiod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then why did you offer that as your ONLY explanation for why the second \nOreb was there?\nI know you said you didn't believe it Pas was possessing Oreb.\nThat's why I said you were arguing with yourself.\nYou've managed to even confuse yourself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are the one who brought up the possession of Oreb by Pas. I carried the\nthought experiment a step further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No you didn't. Rather than deal with a problem for which you have no \nanswer, you decided to attempt a mocking BS answer. But what it revealed \nis that you have never really thought about the real problem of the \nsecond Oreb because it would suggest answers you aren't comfortable with.\n\nWhat concerns me is that maybe this means your entire refutation has \nRefuting as its only purpose. The answer is irrelevant as long as it the \nconclusion does not fall within predetermined ranges. I don't see you as \nmy enemy, Roy. I'm not trying to beat you." } ] }, { "message_id": "<014c01ccabc5$b00ab320$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-25T22:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECFE964.8030507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nYou are the one who brought up the possession of Oreb by Pas. I carried\nthe\nthought experiment a step further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No you didn't. Rather than deal with a problem for which you have no\nanswer, you decided to attempt a mocking BS answer. But what it revealed\nis that you have never really thought about the real problem of the\nsecond Oreb because it would suggest answers you aren't comfortable with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do have an answer, but that is beside the point. As I have said before, I\nwill not be manipulated into playing anyone else's games by anyone else's\nrules.\n\nI may post my solution to the Oreb mystery later tonight, only because I\nthought it up long ago and the subject has come up again. I have nothing\nbetter to do with it. It doesn't involve time travel and it separates Mucor\nand Oreb from Pike's ghost, which I think are different events, just as the\ntext divides them and has already been pointed out.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T23:12:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<014c01ccabc5$b00ab320$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Imo and that of\nothers, the problem is the second Oreb.\nThere is *that I know of* no *credible* way to have a second Oreb there that\ndoesn't involve good old time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that; it seems to me that out-of-body travel is enough.\nAnd out-of-body travel is certainly possible. It is indeed puzzling\nwhy Oreb should be doing it at this moment, but it's also puzzling (I\nthink we agree) why he should be travelling in time. It would indeed\nbe odd if this were the only occasion of someone other than Mucor\ndoing it, so I'm hoping that other hidden cases may be found; but then\ntime-travel is also hidden, if it's present." } ] }, { "message_id": "<286B61021BFD4A0DAF14A5CAA5844A8B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-25T23:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see that; it seems to me that out-of-body travel is enough.\nAnd out-of-body travel is certainly possible. It is indeed puzzling\nwhy Oreb should be doing it at this moment, but it's also puzzling (I\nthink we agree) why he should be travelling in time. It would indeed\nbe odd if this were the only occasion of someone other than Mucor\ndoing it, so I'm hoping that other hidden cases may be found; but then\ntime-travel is also hidden, if it's present." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn seems to do it in the pit, when the long-nosed man touches something to his forehead.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T00:43:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<014c01ccabc5$b00ab320$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nI do have an answer, but that is beside the point. As I have said before, I\nwill not be manipulated into playing anyone else's games by anyone else's\nrules.\n\nI may post my solution to the Oreb mystery later tonight, only because I\nthought it up long ago and the subject has come up again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that would be great! I must say that it is illuminating to learn\nthat during that all those years that I participated in discussions\nwith you trying to reconcile events...where I was running around\ntrying dredge up references, considering how to best answer your\nchallenges...that you saw me as a sucker \"playing your\ngame\"...trotting out ideas for you to shoot at in order for you to\ntemper your own personal theories that you would share one day or not.\nHowever that actually makes sense looking back. I had assumed this was\na game we had all agreed to play together." } ] }, { "message_id": "<62964C02647543638EF4E01EA3858BDB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T19:47:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ECC1136.2000408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, having come kicking and screaming to the conclusion that Silk \nis positively a clone of Typhon, this actually complicates Silk's \nencounter on the Aureate Path. Let's say two of his parents are Tussah \nand Silk's Mother. Who are the other two? Typhon as clone father? Okay. \nMaybe. So who is the other mother? Not Kyrpris or even Mamelta. \"Early \nSummer\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something just occurred to me this morning. Mamelta and Rigoglio (as well as chems, but they mightn?t know or notice) are not the only people who were contemporaneous with Typhon. All the Sleepers were, and there must have been hundreds if not thousands in the cities SilkHorn travelled through.\nTyphon made a big point of the fact that peoples? recognition of his face was a vital part of his rule (and his family walked through peoples? dreams).\nSo how could Silk be a clone of Typhon without it being talked about?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322343405.15374.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T21:36:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<62964C02647543638EF4E01EA3858BDB@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text is clear their memories were \"altered\" before being placed in the sleep... but I agree with you, \nyou would expect a clone of the monarch to be somewhat recognizable.\n\n--- On Sat, 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike's ghost\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 26, 2011, 11:47 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, having come kicking and screaming to the conclusion that Silk " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "is positively a clone of Typhon, this actually complicates Silk's " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "encounter on the Aureate Path. Let's say two of his parents are Tussah " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Silk's Mother. Who are the other two? Typhon as clone father? Okay. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. So who is the other mother? Not Kyrpris or even Mamelta. \"Early " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Summer\"?\n\n\n\nSomething just occurred to me this morning. Mamelta and Rigoglio (as well as chems, but they mightn?t know or notice) are not the only people who were contemporaneous with Typhon. All the Sleepers were, and there must have been hundreds if not thousands in the cities SilkHorn travelled through.\n\n\n\nTyphon made a big point of the fact that peoples? recognition of his face was a vital part of his rule (and his family walked through peoples? dreams).\n\n\n\nSo how could Silk be a clone of Typhon without it being talked about?\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T22:33:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322343405.15374.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I apologize for asking such a question as Im sure it has been\ndiscussed ad naseum but as I am fairly new to the list and still\nplaying catch up in the archives here goes: What makes anyone think\nthat Silk is a clone of Typhon? Id be interested in hearing the basis\nof this theory and any textual evidence anyone has that points to such\na conclusion. Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nThe text is clear their memories were \"altered\" before being placed in the\nsleep... but I agree with you,\nyou would expect a clone of the monarch to be somewhat recognizable.\n\n--- On Sat, 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike's ghost\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 26, 2011, 11:47 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You know, having come kicking and screaming to the conclusion that Silk" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is positively a clone of Typhon, this actually complicates Silk's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "encounter on the Aureate Path. Let's say two of his parents are Tussah" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Silk's Mother. Who are the other two? Typhon as clone father? Okay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe. So who is the other mother? Not Kyrpris or even Mamelta. \"Early" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Summer\"?\n\n\n\nSomething just occurred to me this morning. Mamelta and Rigoglio (as well\nas chems, but they mightn?t know or notice) are not the only people who were\ncontemporaneous with Typhon. All the Sleepers were, and there must have\nbeen hundreds if not thousands in the cities SilkHorn travelled through.\n\n\n\nTyphon made a big point of the fact that peoples? recognition of his face\nwas a vital part of his rule (and his family walked through peoples?\ndreams).\n\n\n\nSo how could Silk be a clone of Typhon without it being talked about?\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED16A2B.4070403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T22:37:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Larry Miller wrote (26-11-2011 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I apologize for asking such a question as Im sure it has been\ndiscussed ad naseum but as I am fairly new to the list and still\nplaying catch up in the archives here goes: What makes anyone think\nthat Silk is a clone of Typhon? Id be interested in hearing the basis\nof this theory and any textual evidence anyone has that points to such\na conclusion. Thanks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll really have to read the archives from 2011 (especially James and \nMarc). It's an idea that has been developed along, not set in stone at a \nparticular moment." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9079DE06F5604F22871B51DFBF33D0C2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T23:16:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I apologize for asking such a question as Im sure it has been\ndiscussed ad naseum but as I am fairly new to the list and still\nplaying catch up in the archives here goes: What makes anyone think\nthat Silk is a clone of Typhon? Id be interested in hearing the basis\nof this theory and any textual evidence anyone has that points to such\na conclusion. Thanks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a good few reasons that appeal to various degrees to various people. One is the fact that Silk is certainly a special embryo, one seeming bred to have leadership abilities. Another is the thoughts and hints from several places that Typhon/Pas would have planned to disembark on the colonised planets. Those two are the main ones that tilt me towards the concept. I know Marc also sets store by various dreams and visions of Silk, and Kypris wanting him in particular to augment Pas. And I think other people have other motivations for thinking that way.\nBut there are problems with Silk as Typhon clone — I pointed out this particular one before in regard to Mamelta and Rigoglio, but I just realised it applies to all Sleepers.\nI think it’s very possible that Silk as Typhon clone was a “seed” for Wolfe’s original concept, a seed that got buried and eventually abandoned as a real thread in the storyline. [Okay, seeds need to be buried — but they die if you bury them too deep.]\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T01:18:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<9079DE06F5604F22871B51DFBF33D0C2@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I apologize for asking such a question as Im sure it has been\ndiscussed ad naseum but as I am fairly new to the list and still\nplaying catch up in the archives here goes: What makes anyone think\nthat Silk is a clone of Typhon? Id be interested in hearing the basis\nof this theory and any textual evidence anyone has that points to such\na conclusion. Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a good few reasons that appeal to various degrees to various\npeople. One is the fact that Silk is certainly a special embryo, one\nseeming bred to have leadership abilities. Another is the thoughts and\nhints from several places that Typhon/Pas would have planned to disembark on\nthe colonised planets. Those two are the main ones that tilt me towards the\nconcept. I know Marc also sets store by various dreams and visions of Silk,\nand Kypris wanting him in particular to augment Pas. And I think other\npeople have other motivations for thinking that way.\nBut there are problems with Silk as Typhon clone — I pointed out this\nparticular one before in regard to Mamelta and Rigoglio, but I just realised\nit applies to all Sleepers.\nI think it’s very possible that Silk as Typhon clone was a “seed” for\nWolfe’s original concept, a seed that got buried and eventually abandoned as\na real thread in the storyline. [Okay, seeds need to be buried — but they\ndie if you bury them too deep.]\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9FA919E4E01F4BA1BB7452CC0CE27EF0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T01:56:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would humans be loyal to an alien? Severian sees him as a man with two heads, but notices no other non-human characteristics.\nTyphon may well have come from off-Urth, but I think he is human, or approximately so.\nWhat makes you think he is an alien?\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T06:12:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<9FA919E4E01F4BA1BB7452CC0CE27EF0@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I dont think that Typhons alien origin was common knowledge among\nthe people thus his comment in Urth where Severian is told by Typhons\nguard not to speak of anything he sees inside Typhons chambers.\nTyphon perhaps doesnt want the illusion that he is human shattered.\nAnd there is hints in the Vingtners comments to Severian that the\npeople wish to overthrow Typhon. I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would humans be loyal to an alien? Severian sees him as a man with two\nheads, but notices no other non-human characteristics.\nTyphon may well have come from off-Urth, but I think he is human, or\napproximately so.\nWhat makes you think he is an alien?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED22FB0.2040904@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-27T12:40:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if Typhon would be an alien, it would be much more difficult to graft\nhis head to Piaton. And why take such risky and complex operation? I think\nthat the straightforward explanation is much more convincing.\n\nTyphon is clever enough\nto tell the truth when he thinks it will not undermine his power (he may be\nmistaken, of course). He says to Severian (in the Sword of the Lictor) that\nhe needed a new body (quite\nunderstandable for ageing dictator), and that the plan (suggested by his\nmedics) was that his head may be grafted and later, when his head will\ntake all functions - voluntary and involuntary - from Piaton, then the head\nof Piaton can be removed. He didn't want the people on Urth to know that\nhe has two heads - this is why Severian (in the UotNS) was told not to speak\nof what he has seen. The cargo of Whorl is conditioned to see Pas as god,\nso there is no problem with two heads. It was different with the people of\nthe whole Urth - not possible to condition all, hence the risk of the \nrebellion\nif they know that the ruler is a monstrosity. And he wanted to keep his \nface.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nWell I dont think that Typhons alien origin was common knowledge among\nthe people thus his comment in Urth where Severian is told by Typhons\nguard not to speak of anything he sees inside Typhons chambers.\nTyphon perhaps doesnt want the illusion that he is human shattered.\nAnd there is hints in the Vingtners comments to Severian that the\npeople wish to overthrow Typhon. I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"\n\nOn 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Larry Miller\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would humans be loyal to an alien? Severian sees him as a man with two\nheads, but notices no other non-human characteristics.\nTyphon may well have come from off-Urth, but I think he is human, or\napproximately so.\nWhat makes you think he is an alien?\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T14:24:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED22FB0.2040904@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \n\nI agree with Sergei — Typhon may well have come from off-Urth but he is human, or close enough for government work. \n\nEven if he has psychic powers (I personally think he has near-supernatural charisma and leadership abilities) that doesn’t really disqualify him from being human I think.\n\nIt’s true that Severian makes much of his astonishment at Typhon, given that we would probably be less amazed by him than by other things Severian doesn’t make a fuss about, But he never mentions anything else strange about him, and when you think about it, he does refer to “the flesh of humankind”.\n\nA possibility occurs to me: do the people of Severian’s time recognise a constellation called Typhon, probably represented as a two-headed man?\n\n- Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if Typhon would be an alien, it would be much more difficult to graft\nhis head to Piaton. And why take such risky and complex operation? I think\nthat the straightforward explanation is much more convincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[?] I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED25082.5060604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-27T15:00:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting and suggestive quote, but I think the key word is \n\"monstrous.\" The man has two heads. I think the \"night sky\" has gnostic \novertones that are stronger than any suggestion of actual alien-ness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/2011 1:12 AM, Larry Miller wrote:\nWell I dont think that Typhons alien origin was common knowledge among\nthe people thus his comment in Urth where Severian is told by Typhons\nguard not to speak of anything he sees inside Typhons chambers.\nTyphon perhaps doesnt want the illusion that he is human shattered.\nAnd there is hints in the Vingtners comments to Severian that the\npeople wish to overthrow Typhon. I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"\n\nOn 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would humans be loyal to an alien? Severian sees him as a man with two\nheads, but notices no other non-human characteristics.\nTyphon may well have come from off-Urth, but I think he is human, or\napproximately so.\nWhat makes you think he is an alien?\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0B001F00843043C38B4E19A610FA9287@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T15:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED25082.5060604@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an interesting and suggestive quote, but I think the key word is \n\"monstrous.\" The man has two heads. I think the \"night sky\" has gnostic \novertones that are stronger than any suggestion of actual alien-ness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/27/2011 1:12 AM, Larry Miller wrote:\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted the stars are visible during the day on Urth, but surely the night must still be the best time for viewing constellations?\nI don’t see what you mean by “gnostic overtones”. If you mention constellations, it’s only natural to think about the night sky.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T17:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<0B001F00843043C38B4E19A610FA9287@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted us to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would have been \n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman names like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are given monster \n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why should Typhon not \n\nfollow the same rules?\n\n \n\nI think idea makes greater sense if we consider that humanity has been\n\nout in space for a long time at the time of Severian's story. Aliens\n\nmay well be mutated, evolved humans in origin.\n\n \n\nIn my understanding, when Wolfe uses mythological names then leaves gaps\n\nin our knowlege about the characters, the gaps may be filled using \n\nmythology. Gods, demons and angels could never appear to humans in their \n\ntrue form. They always had to assume a human (or animal or other) form to\n\nwalk among us. Thus with Typhon. (and Scylla/Cilinia?)\n\n \n\nThe Mandragora (myth Typhon was a mandragora) is a good clue that Typhon has\n\nhuman bodies with special abilities cloned for his personality to be downloaded \n\ninto. We see this process continued on The Whorl and that feeds into the idea \n\nthat Silk was a clone of Typhon. I think it makes more sense to think that Silk \n\nand other special individuals were created so that they might become a receptacle \n\nfor the gods.\n\n \n\nAnother unmentioned hint that Silk was prepared as a receptacle for Pas\n\nis Typhon's mysterious hair color. We are told the two headed guy has\n\none dark-haired head and one light-haired head but we aren't told which\n\nis Typhon and which is Piaton. There are clues which can tell us that\n\nTyphon was, in fact, the blonde but why would WOlfe make it such a secret\n\nunless it was supposed to be important? For whatever reason, Typhon/Pas seems\n\nto like inhabiting blond guys.\n\n \n\nFWIW, I think the original mystery of the blond/dark hair might have to do\n\nwith Typhon's (and Spring Wind's?) association with Alexander The Great. He\n\nwas a blonde Macedonian commanding an army with many darker coloured Greeks.\n\n(aside from the parallels of Spring Wind/Typhon to Alexander there is the issue\n\nof Alexander's supposed, claimed godhood which resonates). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T20:47:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED22FB0.2040904@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhons motivation is simple. He wants to extend his life and his\nrule. His grafting onto Piaton was a desperate measure that he\nundertook to accomplish this. By saying that he is an alien I am not\nsaying that he is immortal. His original body was dying or died so he\nsought a way to live on despite the complications and risks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nWell, if Typhon would be an alien, it would be much more difficult to graft\nhis head to Piaton. And why take such risky and complex operation? I think\nthat the straightforward explanation is much more convincing.\n\nTyphon is clever enough\nto tell the truth when he thinks it will not undermine his power (he may be\nmistaken, of course). He says to Severian (in the Sword of the Lictor) that\nhe needed a new body (quite\nunderstandable for ageing dictator), and that the plan (suggested by his\nmedics) was that his head may be grafted and later, when his head will\ntake all functions - voluntary and involuntary - from Piaton, then the head\nof Piaton can be removed. He didn't want the people on Urth to know that\nhe has two heads - this is why Severian (in the UotNS) was told not to speak\nof what he has seen. The cargo of Whorl is conditioned to see Pas as god,\nso there is no problem with two heads. It was different with the people of\nthe whole Urth - not possible to condition all, hence the risk of the\nrebellion\nif they know that the ruler is a monstrosity. And he wanted to keep his\nface.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well I dont think that Typhons alien origin was common knowledge among\nthe people thus his comment in Urth where Severian is told by Typhons\nguard not to speak of anything he sees inside Typhons chambers.\nTyphon perhaps doesnt want the illusion that he is human shattered.\nAnd there is hints in the Vingtners comments to Severian that the\npeople wish to overthrow Typhon. I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"\n\nOn 11/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thanks Gerry. My only problem with this theory is that I believe\nTyphon is an alien. Silk may be have been a body grown for Pas to use\nafter disembarking, a body for \"permanent possession\" that he could\nrule from. Again I am willing to hear any evidence or opinions\nregarding this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why would humans be loyal to an alien? Severian sees him as a man with\ntwo\nheads, but notices no other non-human characteristics.\nTyphon may well have come from off-Urth, but I think he is human, or\napproximately so.\nWhat makes you think he is an alien?\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:05:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics. His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers. His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV\n\nI agree with Sergei — Typhon may well have come from off-Urth but he is\nhuman, or close enough for government work.\n\nEven if he has psychic powers (I personally think he has near-supernatural\ncharisma and leadership abilities) that doesn’t really disqualify him from\nbeing human I think.\n\nIt’s true that Severian makes much of his astonishment at Typhon, given that\nwe would probably be less amazed by him than by other things Severian\ndoesn’t make a fuss about, But he never mentions anything else strange\nabout him, and when you think about it, he does refer to “the flesh of\nhumankind”.\n\nA possibility occurs to me: do the people of Severian’s time recognise a\nconstellation called Typhon, probably represented as a two-headed man?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if Typhon would be an alien, it would be much more difficult to\ngraft\nhis head to Piaton. And why take such risky and complex operation? I think\nthat the straightforward explanation is much more convincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[?] I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Lee. I think that the concept of aliens in Wolfes universe\nbeing evolved or mutated humans is interesting and it may very well be\nthat Typhon could be one of these beings. I think the more likely\nexplanation regarding Silk as clone is that Silk is not a clone of\nTyphons original alien body but a clone of the blond haired man whose\nhead is grafted onto Piaton. That would explain the hair color at\nleast. As for the Mandragora, I brought that up a few months back as\na possible body for Typhon ( I see it as a proto chem and the Prime\nCalcula that is referred to in Exodus/Long Sun)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: I think hes an alien mainly because\nof Wolfes naming strategum and some things that he says to Severian.\nWhen telling him about his grafting to Piaton he mentions the solar\ndecay and says \"I should have left then.\" I think maybe hes refering\nto escaping back to his homeworld. His comments about \"sending his\nthoughts into far places\" are a reference to some psychic abilities he\nhas (and I know there are those on here that disagree). And theres\nSeverians initial description of the newly resurrected Monarch.\n\"...it was as though one of the monstous constellations of the night\nsky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the flesh of humankind.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted us to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would have been\n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman names like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are given monster\n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why should Typhon not\n\nfollow the same rules?\n\n\n\nI think idea makes greater sense if we consider that humanity has been\n\nout in space for a long time at the time of Severian's story. Aliens\n\nmay well be mutated, evolved humans in origin.\n\n\n\nIn my understanding, when Wolfe uses mythological names then leaves gaps\n\nin our knowlege about the characters, the gaps may be filled using\n\nmythology. Gods, demons and angels could never appear to humans in their\n\ntrue form. They always had to assume a human (or animal or other) form to\n\nwalk among us. Thus with Typhon. (and Scylla/Cilinia?)\n\n\n\nThe Mandragora (myth Typhon was a mandragora) is a good clue that Typhon has\n\nhuman bodies with special abilities cloned for his personality to be\ndownloaded\n\ninto. We see this process continued on The Whorl and that feeds into the\nidea\n\nthat Silk was a clone of Typhon. I think it makes more sense to think that\nSilk\n\nand other special individuals were created so that they might become a\nreceptacle\n\nfor the gods.\n\n\n\nAnother unmentioned hint that Silk was prepared as a receptacle for Pas\n\nis Typhon's mysterious hair color. We are told the two headed guy has\n\none dark-haired head and one light-haired head but we aren't told which\n\nis Typhon and which is Piaton. There are clues which can tell us that\n\nTyphon was, in fact, the blonde but why would WOlfe make it such a secret\n\nunless it was supposed to be important? For whatever reason, Typhon/Pas\nseems\n\nto like inhabiting blond guys.\n\n\n\nFWIW, I think the original mystery of the blond/dark hair might have to do\n\nwith Typhon's (and Spring Wind's?) association with Alexander The Great. He\n\nwas a blonde Macedonian commanding an army with many darker coloured Greeks.\n\n(aside from the parallels of Spring Wind/Typhon to Alexander there is the\nissue\n\nof Alexander's supposed, claimed godhood which resonates). \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322429230.81138.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted\nus to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would\nhave been \n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman\nnames like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are\ngiven monster \n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why\nshould Typhon not \n\nfollow the same rules?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was Jonas) so it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or the time he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic, but his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system on pre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even assumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal authority) is a wee bit ambiguous." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:28:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an off-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again he made himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the same). His family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his family to be named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed with humans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not the only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:49:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322429230.81138.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible. As to\nyour other point all the human characters that are from\npre-Conciliator era such as Declan, Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar\nall named after saints. Ceryx the Necromancer who also possesses some\nmental abilities and who is also probably from off-world bears a\nmythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still sticks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Sun, 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted\nus to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would\nhave been\n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman\nnames like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are\ngiven monster\n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why\nshould Typhon not\n\nfollow the same rules?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was Jonas)\nso it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or the\ntime he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic,\nbut his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system on\npre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even\nassumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal\nauthority) is a wee bit ambiguous.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322430955.18787.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T21:55:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ceryx is, I think, the other ambiguous one in exactly the same category as Typhon. It is not entirely entirely clear if he is alien or simply \"magical\" or \"extra-ordinary\", though of course theories proliferate about him. Definitely a similar category to Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:03:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. Him being able to breed\nwith humans may be another reason why he undertook such a transplant.\n Maybe Piaton is biologically the father of his children (we know that\nhis sexual organs are still functional because of him \"nursing his\nerection\")?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an\noff-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again he\nmade himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the same).\nHis family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his family to\nbe named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed with\nhumans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not the\nonly one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2B54F.9090802@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:10:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is said that the head of Typhon was grafted to Piaton's body about one\nyear before the fall of his empire! It had no time to take control\n(it is said in the Sword of the Lictor, and in UotNS Severian meets\nTyphon trying to recover after his operation). Not enough time to make\nchildren!\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nYes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. Him being able to breed\nwith humans may be another reason why he undertook such a transplant.\n Maybe Piaton is biologically the father of his children (we know that\nhis sexual organs are still functional because of him \"nursing his\nerection\")?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Larry Miller\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an\noff-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again he\nmade himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the same).\nHis family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his family to\nbe named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed with\nhumans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not the\nonly one.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:13:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322430955.18787.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah his powers seem to be telekinetic in nature. I know he breaks\nSeverians staff and animates the corpse. Telekinesis would surely\nallow these acts as they are physical manipulation. Does he do\nanything else extraordinary that Telekinesis wouldnt explain?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nCeryx is, I think, the other ambiguous one in exactly the same category as\nTyphon. It is not entirely entirely clear if he is alien or simply \"magical\"\nor \"extra-ordinary\", though of course theories proliferate about him.\nDefinitely a similar category to Typhon.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2B695.9050606@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As to the names, it may be that given names are mostly the names of the \nsaints,\nbut the names chosen for themselves by \"actively evil\" (or \nanti-religious) people\nare not - Typhon, Ceryx may be such names. Baldanders as well, or Dr. Talos.\nWhy do you think they are names\ngiven at birth? By the way, are \"Casdoe\", \"Agia\",\n\"Agilus\" the names of the saints?\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nWhile Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible. As to\nyour other point all the human characters that are from\npre-Conciliator era such as Declan, Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar\nall named after saints. Ceryx the Necromancer who also possesses some\nmental abilities and who is also probably from off-world bears a\nmythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still sticks.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted\nus to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would\nhave been\n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman\nnames like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are\ngiven monster\n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why\nshould Typhon not\n\nfollow the same rules?\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was Jonas)\nso it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or the\ntime he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic,\nbut his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system on\npre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even\nassumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal\nauthority) is a wee bit ambiguous.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2B54F.9090802@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton? And not to be a\nsmart ass but since when is a year not enough time to have children.\nBesides even if Piaton did not father children through sexual\nrelations there is still artificial insemination, cloning, etc. Maybe\nhis children began life as embryos. There is that comment to Severian\nthat he was not born as we might think it. Perhaps it was the same\nfor his children." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nIt is said that the head of Typhon was grafted to Piaton's body about one\nyear before the fall of his empire! It had no time to take control\n(it is said in the Sword of the Lictor, and in UotNS Severian meets\nTyphon trying to recover after his operation). Not enough time to make\nchildren!\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. Him being able to breed\nwith humans may be another reason why he undertook such a transplant.\n Maybe Piaton is biologically the father of his children (we know that\nhis sexual organs are still functional because of him \"nursing his\nerection\")?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an\noff-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again he\nmade himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the same).\nHis family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his family\nto\nbe named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed\nwith\nhumans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not\nthe\nonly one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2B8D7.7090505@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:25:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What age have the children of Typhon? He had to send the Whorl the year\nbefore the end of his rule - the year between the operation (grafting)\nand rebellions.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nWhere does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton? And not to be a\nsmart ass but since when is a year not enough time to have children.\nBesides even if Piaton did not father children through sexual\nrelations there is still artificial insemination, cloning, etc. Maybe\nhis children began life as embryos. There is that comment to Severian\nthat he was not born as we might think it. Perhaps it was the same\nfor his children.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is said that the head of Typhon was grafted to Piaton's body about one\nyear before the fall of his empire! It had no time to take control\n(it is said in the Sword of the Lictor, and in UotNS Severian meets\nTyphon trying to recover after his operation). Not enough time to make\nchildren!\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. Him being able to breed\nwith humans may be another reason why he undertook such a transplant.\n Maybe Piaton is biologically the father of his children (we know that\nhis sexual organs are still functional because of him \"nursing his\nerection\")?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Larry Miller\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an\noff-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again he\nmade himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the same).\nHis family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his family\nto\nbe named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed\nwith\nhumans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not\nthe\nonly one.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:35:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2B695.9050606@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes Agia, Agilus, and Casdoe are saints. Baldanders and Talos are\nmythic names and that seems to fit with thier natures as Baldanders\nhas become more than human and Talos is a homunculus. As to whether\nTyphon and Ceryx chose those names themselves, who knows?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nAs to the names, it may be that given names are mostly the names of the\nsaints,\nbut the names chosen for themselves by \"actively evil\" (or\nanti-religious) people\nare not - Typhon, Ceryx may be such names. Baldanders as well, or Dr. Talos.\nWhy do you think they are names\ngiven at birth? By the way, are \"Casdoe\", \"Agia\",\n\"Agilus\" the names of the saints?\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible. As to\nyour other point all the human characters that are from\npre-Conciliator era such as Declan, Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar\nall named after saints. Ceryx the Necromancer who also possesses some\nmental abilities and who is also probably from off-world bears a\nmythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still sticks.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted\nus to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would\nhave been\n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman\nnames like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are\ngiven monster\n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why\nshould Typhon not\n\nfollow the same rules?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was\nJonas)\nso it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or\nthe\ntime he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic,\nbut his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system\non\npre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even\nassumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal\nauthority) is a wee bit ambiguous.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T22:41:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2B8D7.7090505@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just want to know where the one year figure comes in. Where does it\nsay that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nWhat age have the children of Typhon? He had to send the Whorl the year\nbefore the end of his rule - the year between the operation (grafting)\nand rebellions.\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton? And not to be a\nsmart ass but since when is a year not enough time to have children.\nBesides even if Piaton did not father children through sexual\nrelations there is still artificial insemination, cloning, etc. Maybe\nhis children began life as embryos. There is that comment to Severian\nthat he was not born as we might think it. Perhaps it was the same\nfor his children.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is said that the head of Typhon was grafted to Piaton's body about\none\nyear before the fall of his empire! It had no time to take control\n(it is said in the Sword of the Lictor, and in UotNS Severian meets\nTyphon trying to recover after his operation). Not enough time to make\nchildren!\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. Him being able to breed\nwith humans may be another reason why he undertook such a transplant.\n Maybe Piaton is biologically the father of his children (we know that\nhis sexual organs are still functional because of him \"nursing his\nerection\")?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Severian sees him as a \"man\" because Piaton is a human. Typhons head\nhowever may closely resemble a human or might even be the head of\nanother human body he possessed so that could explain why Severian\ndoesnt remark upon any alien characteristics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don’t see much reason to think he is non-human, though he may be an\noff-world human. Sure, he doesn’t have a saint’s name, but then again\nhe\nmade himself into a monster of sorts (Baldanders may have done the\nsame).\nHis family appear to be human, and Cilinia, the only other of his\nfamily\nto\nbe named, bears a saint’s name. He’s apparently human enough to breed\nwith\nhumans. And nobody suggests he is not human AFAIK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "His psychic abilities\n(if he does possess any) seem to be quite different than Decuman who\nIIRC is the only other human who has any mental powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think Decuman was merely the most powerful sorceror in his group, not\nthe\nonly one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "His comment\nabout sending his thoughts seem much more in common with the astral\ntravel done by the Inhumi and the Neighbors who are not human. It\nseems Typhon engineered abilities akin to his into humans (as in the\ncase of Mucor) later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I still reckon he is just referring to communications technology here.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-27T23:42:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as clone " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a clone of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAgreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nyep, and we learn that Jonas isn't from the Commonwealth nor even human so\n\nthe saintly rule is not broken with him. (interestingly, neither is there a\n\nSaint Miles)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all the human characters that are from pre-Conciliator era such as Declan, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar all named after saints. Ceryx the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Necromancer who also possesses some mental abilities and who is also probably " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "from off-world bears a mythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still sticks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Does he do anything else extraordinary that Telekinesis wouldnt explain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nStill sizzlin' larry! Yep, the Commonwealth names were saintly before the \n\nConciliator. And in addition to telekinesis, Ceryx reanimates Zama, in zombie\n\nfashion. Not as good as Severian but still (dark) magic. This dark reanimation\n\ncalls to mind some other BotNS characters. Also, I think Ceryx is best seen\n\nas Typhon's vizier scouting out this new wonderworker. After the Ceryx encounter,\n\nTyphon's soldiers start looking for Severian to bring him in. (some interesting \n\npossibilities might arise if Ceryx is vizier, btw)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nTyphon says it, very specifically. \"Nor was Piaton grafted to me. I was grafted \n\nto him. What do you think of that?\"\n\n \n\nAlso, Piaton's body was strapped down while Typhon waited for his neural connections\n\nto dominate and the corpse appears to still have been strapped down when \n\nTyphon/Piaton died. So I think we can rule out Piaton's body being used for reproduction.\n\n \n\nAn interesting question is- in what manner do Typhon and Echidna have reproductive \n\nsex and have all those kids if they were aliens? And the answer, again, may be found\n\nin mythology.\n\n \n\nWe could ask how a 40 mile tall monster with 100 heads, snakes for legs, with fire\n\nbelching out from all his orifices manage to have sex with a snake woman who lives\n\nin cave? Very carefully? I suppose he has to duck his head when he comes in. But, in \n\nseriousness, we can't really comprehend such a thing, nor are we really meant to. The \n\nancients used impossible images to explain that which human beings can't really understand. \n\nGene Wolfe also. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2CF69.7090705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:01:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nWhere does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton? And not to be a\nsmart ass but since when is a year not enough time to have children.\nBesides even if Piaton did not father children through sexual\nrelations there is still artificial insemination, cloning, etc. Maybe\nhis children began life as embryos. There is that comment to Severian\nthat he was not born as we might think it. Perhaps it was the same\nfor his children." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon's children mention having a life before being scanned into the \nWhorl. Cilinia/Scylla was entering puberty.\n\nHow come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to Typhon \nand then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as a Scylla?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17A49BFDF4D347D38CBCACAA574D7EBD@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:02:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you think that?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:04:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks again Lee. I know that Typhon was grafted onto Piaton, my\nquestion was when? I was wondering where the One year figure came\nfrom between Typhons grafting and his death. If Piaton wasnt the\nbiological father then perhaps it was the blond haired man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as clone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a clone of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yep, and we learn that Jonas isn't from the Commonwealth nor even human so\n\nthe saintly rule is not broken with him. (interestingly, neither is there a\n\nSaint Miles)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "all the human characters that are from pre-Conciliator era such as Declan," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar all named after saints. Ceryx the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Necromancer who also possesses some mental abilities and who is also\nprobably" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "from off-world bears a mythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still\nsticks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Does he do anything else extraordinary that Telekinesis wouldnt explain?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still sizzlin' larry! Yep, the Commonwealth names were saintly before the\n\nConciliator. And in addition to telekinesis, Ceryx reanimates Zama, in\nzombie\n\nfashion. Not as good as Severian but still (dark) magic. This dark\nreanimation\n\ncalls to mind some other BotNS characters. Also, I think Ceryx is best seen\n\nas Typhon's vizier scouting out this new wonderworker. After the Ceryx\nencounter,\n\nTyphon's soldiers start looking for Severian to bring him in. (some\ninteresting\n\npossibilities might arise if Ceryx is vizier, btw)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does it say when Typhon was grafted to Piaton?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon says it, very specifically. \"Nor was Piaton grafted to me. I was\ngrafted\n\nto him. What do you think of that?\"\n\n\n\nAlso, Piaton's body was strapped down while Typhon waited for his neural\nconnections\n\nto dominate and the corpse appears to still have been strapped down when\n\nTyphon/Piaton died. So I think we can rule out Piaton's body being used for\nreproduction.\n\n\n\nAn interesting question is- in what manner do Typhon and Echidna have\nreproductive\n\nsex and have all those kids if they were aliens? And the answer, again, may\nbe found\n\nin mythology.\n\n\n\nWe could ask how a 40 mile tall monster with 100 heads, snakes for legs,\nwith fire\n\nbelching out from all his orifices manage to have sex with a snake woman who\nlives\n\nin cave? Very carefully? I suppose he has to duck his head when he comes in.\nBut, in\n\nseriousness, we can't really comprehend such a thing, nor are we really\nmeant to. The\n\nancients used impossible images to explain that which human beings can't\nreally understand.\n\nGene Wolfe also. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:13:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as clone \nis that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a clone of \nthe blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely it’s evident that the blond-haired man *was* Typhon?\n\nIf he were some sort of human mind-slave of a monstrous alien (for which I don’t believe there’s any textual evidence), and if cloning technology were available, then the alien would surely make a bunch of clones and switch to a new one if the old one wore out. There would be no need for head transplants. \n\nTyphon is human or close to human.\n\nAlso, if the blond-haired man were the known face of Pas, the same problem would occur with regard to Silk in that none of the Sleepers seem to recognise him as a twin of the Monarch.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:15:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2CF69.7090705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to Typhon \nand then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as a Scylla?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn’t know anything about it when she was scanned and the Whorl launched?\nThough you’d think he’d send a message to Pas on the subject...\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<17A49BFDF4D347D38CBCACAA574D7EBD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before this thread turns into another Typhons Nature Ill just say\nthis: In Castle of the Otter in the Onomastics chapter Wolfe very\nclearly lays out his naming scheme. His first rule is \"Everything is\njust what it says it is.\" He even refers to Typhon as a monster and\nPiaton as a man. Typhon therefore is not human (or at least not in\nthe same way as the Urthlings are) even in Wolfes eyes. There are\nthings in the text that also seem to point to Typhons \"alienness.\"\nWhether you choose to read them that way is up to the individual\nreader ultimately. This may just be one of those things we will have\nto agree to disagree on Gerry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes but Typhon seems to have done the opposite of those such as\nBaldanders. He began as a monster that transformed himself into a\nhuman so that he could rule over humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes you think that?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2D6DD.7040801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:33:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Ant?nio Marques \nHow come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to\nTyphon a nd then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as\na Scylla?\nHe didn’t know anything about it when she was scanned and the Whorl\nlaunched?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He must, otherwise how would she be a Scylla?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though you’d think he’d send a message to Pas on the subject..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting question - was there contact between Urth and the Whorl\nafter the launch? (Can't see why not, if there's beings on Urth able to \ncontact far away minds...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2D7FB.2030803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:38:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nBefore this thread turns into another Typhons Nature" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what way hasn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ill just say this: In Castle of the Otter in the Onomastics chapter\nWolfe very clearly lays out his naming scheme. His first rule is\n\"Everything is just what it says it is.\" He even refers to Typhon as\na monster and Piaton as a man. Typhon therefore is not human (or at\nleast not in the same way as the Urthlings are) even in Wolfes eyes.\nThere are things in the text that also seem to point to Typhons\n\"alienness.\" Whether you choose to read them that way is up to the\nindividual reader ultimately. This may just be one of those things\nwe will have to agree to disagree on Gerry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is one of those things on which a firm opinion isn't all that \nrelevant in isolation. It's rather 'there's this interesting scheme in \nwhich Typhon isn't human' and 'there's this interesting scheme in which \nTyphon is human'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T00:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk.\nMaybe the cloned bodies wouldnt be fully grown in time for Typhon to\ntransfer into. As far as being a \"mind slave to a monstrous alien\",\nthis doesnt seem to be too far from what the gods of the Whorl do or\nwhat the Neighbor supposedly does to Horn in the pit. What would make\nthat type of possession any different?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as\nclone\nis that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a clone\nof\nthe blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely it’s evident that the blond-haired man *was* Typhon?\n\nIf he were some sort of human mind-slave of a monstrous alien (for which I\ndon’t believe there’s any textual evidence), and if cloning technology were\navailable, then the alien would surely make a bunch of clones and switch to\na new one if the old one wore out. There would be no need for head\ntransplants.\n\nTyphon is human or close to human.\n\nAlso, if the blond-haired man were the known face of Pas, the same problem\nwould occur with regard to Silk in that none of the Sleepers seem to\nrecognise him as a twin of the Monarch.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DA8CD1DDC7B4B7A952E6B4289B36BD6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:00:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before this thread turns into another Typhons Nature Ill just say\nthis: In Castle of the Otter in the Onomastics chapter Wolfe very\nclearly lays out his naming scheme. His first rule is \"Everything is\njust what it says it is.\" He even refers to Typhon as a monster and\nPiaton as a man. Typhon therefore is not human (or at least not in\nthe same way as the Urthlings are) even in Wolfes eyes. There are\nthings in the text that also seem to point to Typhons \"alienness.\"\nWhether you choose to read them that way is up to the individual\nreader ultimately. This may just be one of those things we will have\nto agree to disagree on Gerry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can’t a man be a monster?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:02:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2D6DD.7040801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Ant?nio Marques \nHow come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to\nTyphon a nd then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as\na Scylla?\nHe didn’t know anything about it when she was scanned and the Whorl\nlaunched?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He must, otherwise how would she be a Scylla?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He mightn?t have known about Scylla. Or he might not have recognised the significance of the name she took.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:16:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk, and don;t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something was done to them, but they seem to remember their time on Urth reasonably well. Both Mamelta and Rigoglio have plenty to say about Typhon, and there is no suggestion of lacunae in their memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe the cloned bodies wouldnt be fully grown in time for Typhon to\ntransfer into. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he read the Evil Overlord’s Handbook, he would have prepared them in advance. But really, when he talks to Severian, it’s hard to believe we are not intended to believe that the head is his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as being a \"mind slave to a monstrous alien\",\nthis doesnt seem to be too far from what the gods of the Whorl do or\nwhat the Neighbor supposedly does to Horn in the pit. What would make\nthat type of possession any different?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Permanence? The gods? possession of humans tends to be short-lived. Humans are too small to hold them.\n\nAs for Horn being possessed by a Neighbour in the pit, there’s not IMO the slightest evidence for it. I could accept for the sake of argument that Horn might have died in the pit and been reconstituted by the Neighbours, but there’s then about two books of him being Horn with a bit of Silk, and the Neighbours clearly regard him as a representative of the human race.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4DA8CD1DDC7B4B7A952E6B4289B36BD6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well of course Gerry. But Typhon is a monster in the same way that\nAbaia or Erebus are monsters. As I said before if you see Typhon as\nhuman thats fine. I just trust Wolfes naming conventions and certain\nclues that I interpreted to point towards Typhon not being human. As\nIve said before Piaton is surely human and Typhons head is probably\nhuman too. But his name seems to signify alien origin. We know that\npossession of bodies by Typhon and his family is possible so why is it\nhard to think that Typhon occupied other bodies before Piaton and the\nblond haired man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Before this thread turns into another Typhons Nature Ill just say\nthis: In Castle of the Otter in the Onomastics chapter Wolfe very\nclearly lays out his naming scheme. His first rule is \"Everything is\njust what it says it is.\" He even refers to Typhon as a monster and\nPiaton as a man. Typhon therefore is not human (or at least not in\nthe same way as the Urthlings are) even in Wolfes eyes. There are\nthings in the text that also seem to point to Typhons \"alienness.\"\nWhether you choose to read them that way is up to the individual\nreader ultimately. This may just be one of those things we will have\nto agree to disagree on Gerry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can’t a man be a monster?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2E3C7.4020904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:28:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Ant?nio Marques \n >\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n >\n > *From:* Ant?nio Marques \n >\n >> How come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to\n >\n >> Typhon a nd then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as\n >\n >> a Scylla?\n >\n > He didn’t know anything about it when she was scanned and the Whorl\n >\n > launched?\n\n >\nHe must, otherwise how would she be a Scylla?\nHe mightn?t have known about Scylla. Or he might not have recognised the\nsignificance of the name she took." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's not only the name, it's the whole package. And he learned \ninstantly of Abaia - or did he?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2E445.5090005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nwell of course Gerry. But Typhon is a monster in the same way that\nAbaia or Erebus are monsters. As I said before if you see Typhon as\nhuman thats fine. I just trust Wolfes naming conventions and\ncertain clues that I interpreted to point towards Typhon not being\nhuman. As Ive said before Piaton is surely human and Typhons head is\nprobably human too. But his name seems to signify alien origin. We\nknow that possession of bodies by Typhon and his family is possible\nso why is it hard to think that Typhon occupied other bodies before\nPiaton and the blond haired man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't especially hard. But why was his fate tied to the blond head then?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<649FF5C3FF83422BB771675794E25E23@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "well of course Gerry. But Typhon is a monster in the same way that\nAbaia or Erebus are monsters. As I said before if you see Typhon as\nhuman thats fine. I just trust Wolfes naming conventions and certain\nclues that I interpreted to point towards Typhon not being human. As\nIve said before Piaton is surely human and Typhons head is probably\nhuman too. But his name seems to signify alien origin. We know that\npossession of bodies by Typhon and his family is possible so why is it\nhard to think that Typhon occupied other bodies before Piaton and the\nblond haired man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The possession is technological, based on light pulses sent via the Sacred Windows. There’s no evidence that Typhon himself can do it. Scanning is the same for Silk as for Typhon / Kypris / Cilinia.\nCilinia, his daughter, seems to be a human girl. She even has a saint’s name. Presumably Kypris is also (we don’t know her original name).\nTyphon is unique in his rapid conquest of Urth. If he inhabited other bodies previously, why don’t we hear of them?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<58DD28CC4C2147478D0461ECF4E618EB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:44:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2E3C7.4020904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Ant?nio Marques mailto:entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " >> How come Cilinia's business with monster-Scylla is a treason to\n >> Typhon a nd then Typhon allows her to be scanned into the Whorl as\n >> a Scylla?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >\n > He didn’t know anything about it when she was scanned and the Whorl\n > launched?\n >\nHe must, otherwise how would she be a Scylla?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He mightn?t have known about Scylla. Or he might not have recognised the\nsignificance of the name she took." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it's not only the name, it's the whole package. And he learned \ninstantly of Abaia - or did he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either that, or he learned ?ah, my old enemy Abaia is still around, and doing well it seems — maybe it’s time to negotiate a new understanding.\nBut it seems possible to me that he didn’t recognise an issue with Cilinia when the Whorl was launched. And if she was executed for treason, the exact nature of her treason might not have been known.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dont know about Rigoglio but Mamelta says nothing about Typhon. IIRC\nthe only memory of Urth she relates is being on a patio with her\nbrothers throwing a ball through a water fountain. And I did say\n\"supposedly\" that a Neighbor possessed Horn. Ill also agree with you\nthat permanence is a problem when regarding possession. One thing\nthat I think should be stressed is that Typhons grafting was a last\nditch effort to extend his life. His possession of the blond haired\nman could have worn out that body but Typhon wanted to keep his head\nbecause it bore the face that the people of Urth knew as Monarch so\nthats why he undertook such a desperate measure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk, and\ndon;t\nSomething was done to them, but they seem to remember their time on Urth\nreasonably well. Both Mamelta and Rigoglio have plenty to say about Typhon,\nand there is no suggestion of lacunae in their memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe the cloned bodies wouldnt be fully grown in time for Typhon to\ntransfer into." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he read the Evil Overlord’s Handbook, he would have prepared them in\nadvance. But really, when he talks to Severian, it’s hard to believe we are\nnot intended to believe that the head is his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far as being a \"mind slave to a monstrous alien\",\nthis doesnt seem to be too far from what the gods of the Whorl do or\nwhat the Neighbor supposedly does to Horn in the pit. What would make\nthat type of possession any different?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Permanence? The gods? possession of humans tends to be short-lived. Humans\nare too small to hold them.\n\nAs for Horn being possessed by a Neighbour in the pit, there’s not IMO the\nslightest evidence for it. I could accept for the sake of argument that\nHorn might have died in the pit and been reconstituted by the Neighbours,\nbut there’s then about two books of him being Horn with a bit of Silk, and\nthe Neighbours clearly regard him as a representative of the human race.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T01:57:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<649FF5C3FF83422BB771675794E25E23@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cilinia has a saints name because she is biologically human as her\nfather is likely Piaton or the Blonde haired man. His fate is tied\nwith this blonde haired man because this is the \"face\" that the people\nacknowledge as Monarch. Mainframe possession is technological your\nright but whose to say that Typhons race didnt possess the means to\ninhabit others. Is Mucors possession technological? No its not so\nthere you go. As far as other bodies go I do believe we hear about at\nleast one- the mandragora which again I believe is the Prime Calcula\nmentioned by Echidna when Silk asks \"Did Pas ever possess anyone who\ndied?\" in Exodus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "well of course Gerry. But Typhon is a monster in the same way that\nAbaia or Erebus are monsters. As I said before if you see Typhon as\nhuman thats fine. I just trust Wolfes naming conventions and certain\nclues that I interpreted to point towards Typhon not being human. As\nIve said before Piaton is surely human and Typhons head is probably\nhuman too. But his name seems to signify alien origin. We know that\npossession of bodies by Typhon and his family is possible so why is it\nhard to think that Typhon occupied other bodies before Piaton and the\nblond haired man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The possession is technological, based on light pulses sent via the Sacred\nWindows. There’s no evidence that Typhon himself can do it. Scanning is\nthe same for Silk as for Typhon / Kypris / Cilinia.\nCilinia, his daughter, seems to be a human girl. She even has a saint’s\nname. Presumably Kypris is also (we don’t know her original name).\nTyphon is unique in his rapid conquest of Urth. If he inhabited other\nbodies previously, why don’t we hear of them?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED2F1AF.6050101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T02:27:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/27/2011 6:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWhile Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yep, and we learn that Jonas isn't from the Commonwealth nor even human so\n\nthe saintly rule is not broken with him. (interestingly, neither is there a\n\nSaint Miles)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Miles isn't his real name. Severian calls him that because he is \nnameless and is a soldier. It means \"soldier.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T02:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED2F1AF.6050101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesnt Miles eventually recover some memories and tell Severian that\nhis name is in fact Miles though?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/27/2011 6:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yep, and we learn that Jonas isn't from the Commonwealth nor even human so\n\nthe saintly rule is not broken with him. (interestingly, neither is there\na\n\nSaint Miles)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Miles isn't his real name. Severian calls him that because he is\nnameless and is a soldier. It means \"soldier.\"\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C967156-EF20-4310-8941-91BB52066E4D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T03:09:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 28/11/2011, ?s 01:57, Larry Miller escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His fate is tied\nwith this blonde haired man because this is the \"face\" that the people\nacknowledge as Monarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly his fate as Monarch, but his fate as a living entity? He does seem to be dead/sleeping from the Concilliator's time to Severian's, and he does seem to die by Severian's hand. Do you hold that he may have been/be somewhere far away, unable to act on Urth while/when the blond head is asleep/dead/killed? Unable or unwilling to possess someone else?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<374C87EB592040A89250B41D36668B8C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T03:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cilinia has a saints name because she is biologically human as her\nfather is likely Piaton or the Blonde haired man. His fate is tied\nwith this blonde haired man because this is the \"face\" that the people\nacknowledge as Monarch. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon wanted a son. If he were a space monster, surely he would hardly have cared about the son of some random Urthling? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mainframe possession is technological your\nright but whose to say that Typhons race didnt possess the means to\ninhabit others. Is Mucors possession technological? No its not so\nthere you go. As far as other bodies go I do believe we hear about at\nleast one- the mandragora which again I believe is the Prime Calcula\nmentioned by Echidna when Silk asks \"Did Pas ever possess anyone who\ndied?\" in Exodus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mandragora? Do you mean the homunculus in a jar Severian found, probably thousands — and certainly hundreds — of years after Typhon? I don’t see what that has to do with him.\n“The prime calcula... His citadel” is surely the Prime Calculator, a component of Mainframe, a sort of primary ALU. Echidna is losing control of Marble when she blurts out these sentence fragments. \n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0804522F29674F88904B510126EB3037@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T03:17:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dont know about Rigoglio but Mamelta says nothing about Typhon. IIRC\nthe only memory of Urth she relates is being on a patio with her\nbrothers throwing a ball through a water fountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s true she doesn’t mention Typhon specifically, but she remembers his family, notably Molpe. They danced through her dreams.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1026E27914DF429786D9629F99D63B92@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T03:22:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1C967156-EF20-4310-8941-91BB52066E4D@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 28/11/2011, ?s 01:57, Larry Miller escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His fate is tied\nv> with this blonde haired man because this is the \"face\" that the people\nacknowledge as Monarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly his fate as Monarch, but his fate as a living entity? He does seem to be \ndead/sleeping from the Concilliator's time to Severian's, and he does seem to die \nby Severian's hand. Do you hold that he may have been/be somewhere far away, \nunable to act on Urth while/when the blond head is asleep/dead/killed? Unable or\n unwilling to possess someone else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a good point. And when Severian woke him he was all gung-ho to take over Urth again, yet fifty years later he had not reappeared after being killed. I think Severian got the right guy...\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T03:25:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1026E27914DF429786D9629F99D63B92@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a manteion, during a\n\nsearch for a working window, iirc, Silk discovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting \n\nhim presiding over an orgy scene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s)\n\npresents us with a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and that\n\nthe depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\n \n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of some hint in the \n\nChrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just considers it utter blasphemy, destroys\n\nit on the spot and never mentions it again (iirc). There is clearly something working\n\non the Whorl to erase accurate memories of Typhon. (and that something may be a part\n\nof Silk)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Miles isn't his real name. Severian calls him that because he is\nnameless and is a soldier. It means \"soldier.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Doesnt Miles eventually recover some memories and tell Severian that\nhis name is in fact Miles though?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes though the restored memory is reported to Severian by a Pelerine, not by\n\nMiles himself. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T04:04:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1026E27914DF429786D9629F99D63B92@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No I think that his mind or whatever you want to call it laid dormant\nall those years between the Conciliator until his resurrection. The\nreason he didnt reappear is because Severian killed that body before\nhis mind could be transferred into another. I dont think Typhons\nabilities work in the same way as Mucors where he can jump from body\nto body at will. There has to be some kind of procedure/operation\ninvolved. Unfortunately for him Typhon was stuck in the body that\nSeverian killed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nNo dia 28/11/2011, ?s 01:57, Larry Miller \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "His fate is tied\nv> with this blonde haired man because this is the \"face\" that the people\nacknowledge as Monarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly his fate as Monarch, but his fate as a living entity? He does\nseem to be\ndead/sleeping from the Concilliator's time to Severian's, and he does seem\nto die\nby Severian's hand. Do you hold that he may have been/be somewhere far\naway,\nunable to act on Urth while/when the blond head is asleep/dead/killed?\nUnable or\n unwilling to possess someone else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a good point. And when Severian woke him he was all gung-ho to take\nover Urth again, yet fifty years later he had not reappeared after being\nkilled. I think Severian got the right guy...\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T04:19:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a manteion, during a\nsearch for a working window, iirc, Silk discovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting \nhim presiding over an orgy scene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s)\npresents us with a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and that\nthe depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their minds weren’t wiped — we know that quite clearly from Mamelta and Rigoglio, who remember much of their time on Urth.\n\nAs for the painting, it might well have been an realistic psychological portrait, but presumably Piaton had but one penis. (Unless, of course, Typhon had more than one head grafted — but Severian does not mention a second penis.) Most likely, it is just blasphemous porn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of some hint in the \nChrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just considers it utter blasphemy, destroys\nit on the spot and never mentions it again (iirc). There is clearly something working\non the Whorl to erase accurate memories of Typhon. (and that something may be a part\nof Silk)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s 300 years ago. Silk was born ten or fifteen generations after the Whorl was launched, and he has never heard of Typhon anyway, only Pas. There’s no need to speculate on unnatural modes of memory erasure. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7DC616E235B1433FB06EF2DF08063B10@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T04:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No I think that his mind or whatever you want to call it laid dormant\nall those years between the Conciliator until his resurrection. The\nreason he didnt reappear is because Severian killed that body before\nhis mind could be transferred into another. I dont think Typhons\nabilities work in the same way as Mucors where he can jump from body\nto body at will. There has to be some kind of procedure/operation\ninvolved. Unfortunately for him Typhon was stuck in the body that\nSeverian killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why assume an alien with one-way mind transfer, when there’s no difference from if he was human all along? \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35B23722-17C5-4C9D-B623-0CC4D11BA94D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T04:38:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<7DC616E235B1433FB06EF2DF08063B10@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 28/11/2011, ?s 04:23, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Larry Miller\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No I think that his mind or whatever you want to call it laid dormant\nall those years between the Conciliator until his resurrection. The\nreason he didnt reappear is because Severian killed that body before\nhis mind could be transferred into another. I dont think Typhons\nabilities work in the same way as Mucors where he can jump from body\nto body at will. There has to be some kind of procedure/operation\ninvolved. Unfortunately for him Typhon was stuck in the body that\nSeverian killed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why assume an alien with one-way mind transfer, when there’s no difference from if he was human all along?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there can be differences between the two scenarios. But they would be reflected somewhere else. That is why, I repeat, the whole question doesn't matter very much in isolation. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED36E19.3070409@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-28T11:18:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We still can ask whether Baldanders and Talos had chosen their names\nthemselves (or Baldanders had chosen for Talos) - implicitly, for ordinary\npeople in Wolfe's worlds the names are chosen by parents, but for\nextraordinary people? It is naive to think that Wolfe just has chosen\nthe mythological names - he may want to say that the personages have\nchosen these names and this says something about their character.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nYes Agia, Agilus, and Casdoe are saints. Baldanders and Talos are\nmythic names and that seems to fit with thier natures as Baldanders\nhas become more than human and Talos is a homunculus. As to whether\nTyphon and Ceryx chose those names themselves, who knows?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As to the names, it may be that given names are mostly the names of the\nsaints,\nbut the names chosen for themselves by \"actively evil\" (or\nanti-religious) people\nare not - Typhon, Ceryx may be such names. Baldanders as well, or Dr. Talos.\nWhy do you think they are names\ngiven at birth? By the way, are \"Casdoe\", \"Agia\",\n\"Agilus\" the names of the saints?\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLarry Miller wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "While Jonas isnt a saintly name it is derived from the bible. As to\nyour other point all the human characters that are from\npre-Conciliator era such as Declan, Hadelin, Zama, Herena, even Ymar\nall named after saints. Ceryx the Necromancer who also possesses some\nmental abilities and who is also probably from off-world bears a\nmythological name. Wolfes naming scheme still sticks.\n\nOn 11/27/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/27/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think your reasoning is spot on, larry. If Wolfe wanted\nus to think\n\nof Typhon as a normal, Commonwealthy sort of human he would\nhave been\n\ngiven a saint name. Other non-human aliens are given Roman\nnames like\n\nInire, Cumaean, Barbatus and Famulimus. Alien monsters are\ngiven monster\n\nnames from mythology like Abaia, Erebus and Scylla. Why\nshould Typhon not\n\nfollow the same rules?\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was\nJonas)\nso it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or\nthe\ntime he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic,\nbut his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system\non\npre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even\nassumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal\nauthority) is a wee bit ambiguous.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED36FCD.6050703@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-28T11:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Duke Rigoglio mentions having seen Pas/Typhon.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nDidnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk.\nMaybe the cloned bodies wouldnt be fully grown in time for Typhon to\ntransfer into. As far as being a \"mind slave to a monstrous alien\",\nthis doesnt seem to be too far from what the gods of the Whorl do or\nwhat the Neighbor supposedly does to Horn in the pit. What would make\nthat type of possession any different?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as\nclone\nis that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a clone\nof\nthe blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surely it’s evident that the blond-haired man *was* Typhon?\n\nIf he were some sort of human mind-slave of a monstrous alien (for which I\ndon’t believe there’s any textual evidence), and if cloning technology were\navailable, then the alien would surely make a bunch of clones and switch to\na new one if the old one wore out. There would be no need for head\ntransplants.\n\nTyphon is human or close to human.\n\nAlso, if the blond-haired man were the known face of Pas, the same problem\nwould occur with regard to Silk in that none of the Sleepers seem to\nrecognise him as a twin of the Monarch.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<70C71EDFDC3B4AEBA0FD38FD41FB8551@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T13:10:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a manteion, during a\nsearch for a working window, iirc, Silk discovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting \nhim presiding over an orgy scene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s)\npresents us with a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and that\nthe depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\n There is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of some hint in the \nChrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just considers it utter blasphemy, destroys\nit on the spot and never mentions it again (iirc)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a “crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”. \n\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was being fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and in the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current society, would have needed some time to become famous. The obscene parody, then, was presumably created much later.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED39725.9090804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T14:13:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<70C71EDFDC3B4AEBA0FD38FD41FB8551@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a\nmanteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk discovers a\npainting of \"Pas\" depicting him presiding over an orgy scene of sexual\ndebauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us with a clear clue\nthat Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and that the depiction of\nhis tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of some\nhint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just considers it\nutter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never mentions it again\n(iirc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a\n“crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was being\nfitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and in the\nWhorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current\nsociety, would have needed some time to become famous. The obscene\nparody, then, was presumably created much later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't \nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If it's \nthat Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he doesn't \nlook like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he doesn't it's at \nbest neutral data, not evidence for anything)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3ABE8.8060807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T15:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED39725.9090804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a\nmanteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk discovers a\npainting of \"Pas\" depicting him presiding over an orgy scene of sexual\ndebauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us with a clear clue\nthat Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and that the depiction of\nhis tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of some\nhint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just considers it\nutter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never mentions it again\n(iirc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a\n“crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was being\nfitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and in the\nWhorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current\nsociety, would have needed some time to become famous. The obscene\nparody, then, was presumably created much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't \nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If \nit's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he \ndoesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he \ndoesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look that \nmuch like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to \nglorify him. How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon? Would \na reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?\n\nAny ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris) \nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T15:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3ABE8.8060807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Their minds weren’t wiped — we know that quite clearly from Mamelta \nand Rigoglio, who remember much of their time on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would keep in mind that Mamelta was awakened improperly and there was no chance\nfor what might have been the mind wiping process. Rigoglio seems to be a special \ncase, for some reason (authorily to provide the reader with needed information).\n \nBut, there was mind erasure going on as is made clear in Tartaros' conversation\nwith Auk. You shouldn't assume it was complete mind erasure. The conversation\nreflects a selective erasure with regard to the gods and their worship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the painting, it might well have been an realistic psychological portrait, \nbut presumably Piaton had but one penis.....Campion’s painting was probably created \nat the time the Whorl was being fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), \nand in the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current society, \nwould have needed some time to become famous. The obscene parody, then, was presumably \ncreated much later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe evidence suggests you have it backwards. The bulldozers are a direct reference to the \nautonomous machines (\"wains\", iirc) which were used to carve the mountains into Typhon's\nlikeness. The orgy is a direct reference to Typhon's demand of Severian, as his regent, to\nprovide him tribute of young women and boys. The nursing of erections also a direct\nreference to Severian's experience with Typhon.\n \nThus the perverted, blasphemous painting, accurately depicting reality on Urth is the\nolder and more original painting. Campion's painting is a cleaned up version of it for\nuse on The Whorl, where Pas is a cleaned up version of Typhon.\n \nwhat I think is not well understood or discussed is that the cleanup of Typhon and his \ntransformation into the more benign, creative demiurge Pas is the work of the Outsider.\nThe mytho-religious aspects of the Outsider explain why He would want to do this. Silk\nand perhaps Tartaros are working to accomplish the goals of the Outsider (which include \nthe suppression of Typhon's monstrous family, not to mention the similar, dual-natured \nAyuntamiento). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3B11A.9070303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T16:04:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 10:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAs for the painting, it might well have been an realistic psychological portrait,\nbut presumably Piaton had but one penis.....Campion’s painting was probably created\nat the time the Whorl was being fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses),\nand in the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current society,\nwould have needed some time to become famous. The obscene parody, then, was presumably\ncreated much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The evidence suggests you have it backwards. The bulldozers are a direct reference to the\nautonomous machines (\"wains\", iirc) which were used to carve the mountains into Typhon's\nlikeness. The orgy is a direct reference to Typhon's demand of Severian, as his regent, to\nprovide him tribute of young women and boys. The nursing of erections also a direct\nreference to Severian's experience with Typhon.\n\nThus the perverted, blasphemous painting, accurately depicting reality on Urth is the\nolder and more original painting. Campion's painting is a cleaned up version of it for\nuse on The Whorl, where Pas is a cleaned up version of Typhon.\n\nwhat I think is not well understood or discussed is that the cleanup of Typhon and his\ntransformation into the more benign, creative demiurge Pas is the work of the Outsider.\nThe mytho-religious aspects of the Outsider explain why He would want to do this. Silk\nand perhaps Tartaros are working to accomplish the goals of the Outsider (which include\nthe suppression of Typhon's monstrous family, not to mention the similar, dual-natured\nAyuntamiento). \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, that is a great analysis. I have to agree, having never thought \nabout it. I am not sure what damage it does to the general point I just \nmade, though it weakens the argument I gave. I'm still skeptical that a \nclone of Typhon has to look exactly like an iconic painting of him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3B72B.9050206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T16:30:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322429230.81138.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/2011 3:27 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe only thing here is that he is from pre-conciliator times (as was Jonas) so it is not clear whether his alien name is indicative of his nature or the time he was named and alive. Admittedly, Jonas was not entirely organic, but his OT name is distinct from the saint's names, so the naming system on pre-conciliator relics and leftovers like Typhon (who could have even assumed the name in his pretension to godhood as he ascended to temporal authority) is a wee bit ambiguous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "St. Jonas:\nhttp://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4063" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3BEAA.1080107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T17:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3ABE8.8060807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a\nmanteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk\ndiscovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting him presiding over an orgy\nscene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us\nwith a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and\nthat the depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of\nsome hint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just\nconsiders it utter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never\nmentions it again (iirc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a\n“crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was\nbeing fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and\nin the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our\ncurrent society, would have needed some time to become famous. The\nobscene parody, then, was presumably created much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't\nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If\nit's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he\ndoesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he\ndoesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look that\n much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to\nglorify him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it certainly isn't absent.\n\nHowever, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar is\nevidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone: and the conclusion is\nthat while it need not be against it, it certainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original Jesus, who\nhad a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were Piaton and \nTyphon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3C677.2010707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T17:35:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED36FCD.6050703@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, their memories have been tinkered with. If a Cargo would not \nhave had a moment of striking recognition at Silk's appearance, I don't \nthink a Sleeper would do any better. The Sleepers don't even call him \nTyphon. They call him Pas like everyone else. Although he remembers that \nthe gods walked among them on Urth, he also still considers them gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:26 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDuke Rigoglio mentions having seen Pas/Typhon.\n\nSergei\n\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Didnt all the sleepers have thier minds wiped before boarding the\nWhorl? That would seem to solve the problem of recognition of Silk.\nMaybe the cloned bodies wouldnt be fully grown in time for Typhon to\ntransfer into. As far as being a \"mind slave to a monstrous alien\",\nthis doesnt seem to be too far from what the gods of the Whorl do or\nwhat the Neighbor supposedly does to Horn in the pit. What would make\nthat type of possession any different?\n\nOn 11/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "larry miller: I think the more likely explanation regarding Silk as\nclone\nis that Silk is not a clone of Typhons original alien body but a \nclone\nof\nthe blond haired man whose head is grafted onto Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Agreed. (and it would solve some debates on the issue of \"Silk=Pas?\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Surely it’s evident that the blond-haired man *was* Typhon?\n\nIf he were some sort of human mind-slave of a monstrous alien (for \nwhich I\ndon’t believe there’s any textual evidence), and if cloning \ntechnology were\navailable, then the alien would surely make a bunch of clones and \nswitch to\na new one if the old one wore out. There would be no need for head\ntransplants.\n\nTyphon is human or close to human.\n\nAlso, if the blond-haired man were the known face of Pas, the same \nproblem\nwould occur with regard to Silk in that none of the Sleepers seem to\nrecognise him as a twin of the Monarch.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3C918.3000708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T17:47:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3C677.2010707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (28-11-2011 17:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, their memories have been tinkered with. If a Cargo would not have\nhad a moment of striking recognition at Silk's appearance, I don't think a\nSleeper would do any better. The Sleepers don't even call him Typhon. They\ncall him Pas like everyone else. Although he remembers that the gods walked\namong them on Urth, he also still considers them gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their memories have been tinkered with in order for them to put their \npersonal lives behind, but there is no suggestion that they have had the \nTyphons' appearances erased - why would they do that, it would only detract \nfrom the Typhons' glory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3CB92.40502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T17:57:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3BEAA.1080107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a\nmanteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk\ndiscovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting him presiding over an orgy\nscene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us\nwith a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and\nthat the depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of\nsome hint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just\nconsiders it utter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never\nmentions it again (iirc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a\n“crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was\nbeing fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and\nin the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our\ncurrent society, would have needed some time to become famous. The\nobscene parody, then, was presumably created much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't\nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If\nit's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he\ndoesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he\ndoesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look that\n much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to\nglorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it certainly \nisn't absent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look that much \nlike a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to glorify \nhim\" but you don't know what it is, would you at least care to say why \nyou think this is true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar is\nevidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone: and the conclusion is\nthat while it need not be against it, it certainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions. But remember, the \nevidence in question is not \"Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar\" \nbut rather Silk not commenting on it (i.e., Horn not commenting, which \nreally means only that Silk didn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone (\"By \nthe way, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be evidence of \nanything at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original Jesus, who\nhad a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean the \n\"actual Jesus who would do such a thing\" would want an exactly correct \nportrait, nothing exaggerated?\n\nI grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin that \ngives him his charisma, but if you think such portraits are always \nextremely accurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for the \ntheory that he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were Piaton and \nTyphon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his depiction \nincluding Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads.\n One was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322503568.76606.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T18:06:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk's description as a slender but fit guy WOULD NOT MAKE HIM SIMILAR IN BUILD TO piaton at all: he is described as somebody who could run all night, whereas, while Piaton is not THE biggest of Typhon's servants, his description of one of palpable extreme strength. Chenille \"looks\" stockier and stronger than Silk. I doubt she would look stronger than Piaton. These descriptions preclude Silk being any kind of Piaton - he is the stuff of the original monarch, insofar as he might be related at all to him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T18:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322503568.76606.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Silk's ability to lead/influence others IS the charisma Typhon\nassociates with his face. The embryo that became Silk was a clone of\nTyphon into which he intended to d/l himself on arrival at the Whorl's\ndestination, thus preserving his \"face.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSilk's description as a slender but fit guy WOULD NOT MAKE HIM SIMILAR IN BUILD TO piaton at all: he is described as somebody who could run all night, whereas, while Piaton is not THE biggest of Typhon's servants, his description of one of palpable extreme strength. ?Chenille \"looks\" stockier and stronger than Silk. ?I doubt she would look stronger than Piaton. ?These descriptions preclude Silk being any kind of Piaton - he is the stuff of the original monarch, insofar as he might be related at all to him.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T18:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah that seems to be where I was going with my Silk=blond haired man\nclone idea." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3D4DC.3000409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T18:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3CB92.40502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a\nmanteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk\ndiscovers a painting of \"Pas\" depicting him presiding over an orgy\nscene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us\nwith a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and\nthat the depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.\n\nThere is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of\nsome hint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just\nconsiders it utter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never\nmentions it again (iirc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a\n“crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.\nCampion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was\nbeing fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and\nin the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our\ncurrent society, would have needed some time to become famous. The\nobscene parody, then, was presumably created much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't\nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If\nit's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he\ndoesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he\ndoesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look that\nmuch like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to\nglorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it certainly isn't\nabsent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look that much like\na parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to glorify him\" but\nyou don't know what it is, would you at least care to say why you think this\nis true?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clones usually look like the original and parodies usually look like the \noriginal, so there is just a wee possibility that a clone of someone should \nlook a wee bit like a parody of that someone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar is\nevidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone: and the conclusion is\nthat while it need not be against it, it certainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is neither neutral nor otherwise. It may or may not be against it; it may \nnot be for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But remember, the\nevidence in question is not \"Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar\" but\nrather Silk not commenting on it (i.e., Horn not commenting, which really\nmeans only that Silk didn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone (\"By the\nway, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be evidence of anything\nat all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't it can't, it's it needn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from Typhon, \nany difference between them would need a rationale. Not having an obvious \none, it isn't impossible, but it's the less likely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original Jesus, who\nhad a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean the \"actual\nJesus who would do such a thing\" would want an exactly correct portrait,\nnothing exaggerated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did we begin talking about exageration? I don't think a propaganda \nportrait of Stalin that made him look like Pi?sudski would be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin that gives\nhim his charisma, but if you think such portraits are always extremely\naccurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for the theory\nthat he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I don't follow this one.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were Piaton and\nTyphon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his depiction\nincluding Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads.\nOne was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aside from the fact that\n\n- if Silk replaced Piaton and there weren't a distinction between Silk and \nBlond, they wouldn't say 'one' was Silk's, as both would be Silk/Blond\n\n- if Silk replaced Blond and there weren't a distinction between Silk and \nBlond, why would they say it was Silk's now, since it had always been?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T19:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3D4DC.3000409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Silk's description as a slender but fit guy WOULD NOT MAKE HIM \nSIMILAR IN BUILD TO piaton at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I think Silk's ability to lead/influence others IS the charisma \nTyphon associates with his face. The embryo that became Silk was a clone of Typhon \ninto which he intended to d/l himself on arrival at the Whorl's destination, thus \npreserving his \"face.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think Dan'l's idea is more in line with larry's theory (and what is actually \ngoing on, imho). \n \nLeaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora seems \nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded into a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the bottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not to refer to \nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is.\n \nSeverian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his own head chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually demonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share. Moreover Typhon\nsays he was not born, in the way Severian understands it. The evidence seems pretty \nclear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his original self.\n \nI don't have a definite opinion on what this means in regard to Silk but I think there is \nsurely some connection there. FWIW, I'll mention that at the end of RttW, during a \ndream-travel to Urth, they are on a ship. Along with snaky-armed Scylla (or is it Cilinia? \ndoesn't matter) there is a big, blonde guy steering the ship. He is clearly supposed to be \nconnected to Typhon/Pas in some manner.\n \nIs this dream-travel version of Pas meant to be Silk? Or is it Jugano? Oreb? I dunno. \nMaybe someone can make sense of it better than me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3DFF2.8050208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T19:24:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3D4DC.3000409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't\nrecognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If\nit's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he\ndoesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he\ndoesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look \nthat\nmuch like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to\nglorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it certainly \nisn't\nabsent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look that \nmuch like\na parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to glorify him\" \nbut\nyou don't know what it is, would you at least care to say why you \nthink this\nis true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clones usually look like the original and parodies usually look like \nthe original, so there is just a wee possibility that a clone of \nsomeone should look a wee bit like a parody of that someone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd put the likely resemblance as a little stronger than \"a wee bit,\" \nbut if we're talking about a minimum (potentially after surgery, scars, \netc.) then I agree, especially since the discussion was about looking \n\"exactly\" like an original.\n\nHowever, I think some attention to the word \"parody\" in the sense of \n\"caricature\" is in order. A caricature is the very opposite of an exact \ncopy, in that it exaggerates salient features. So does propaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness \nfamiliar is\nevidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone: and the \nconclusion is\nthat while it need not be against it, it certainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is neither neutral nor otherwise. It may or may not be against it; \nit may not be for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please let us know when have an argument for this conclusion, or at \nleast when you care to show a logical path to it, other than simply \nrepeating your assertion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But remember, the\nevidence in question is not \"Silk not finding Pas's likeness \nfamiliar\" but\nrather Silk not commenting on it (i.e., Horn not commenting, which \nreally\nmeans only that Silk didn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone (\"By \nthe\nway, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be evidence of \nanything\nat all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It isn't it can't, it's it needn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's that it isn't. See my argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from \nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not having \nan obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less likely option." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and me?\n\nIf you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their originals, \nthat would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do you base your \nassumption?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original \nJesus, who\nhad a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean the \n\"actual\nJesus who would do such a thing\" would want an exactly correct portrait,\nnothing exaggerated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When did we begin talking about exageration? I don't think a \npropaganda portrait of Stalin that made him look like Pi?sudski would \nbe effective." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, okay. But someone mentioned parody, which usually suggests careful \nexaggeration as a technique. See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin that \ngives\nhim his charisma, but if you think such portraits are always extremely\naccurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for the \ntheory\nthat he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I don't follow this one.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You said Typhon commissioned the portrait with two heads; you said he \nwas fixated on people seeing his original face. If you see no tension \nthere, forget it.\n\nFor all we know, Typhon did NOT commission either painting. He may not \nhave had total control of it, or \"died\" before the Whorl was launched. \nIt was a huge project." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by \nKhypris)\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were Piaton and\nTyphon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his depiction\nincluding Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads.\nOne was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from the fact that\n\n- if Silk replaced Piaton and there weren't a distinction between Silk \nand Blond, they wouldn't say 'one' was Silk's, as both would be \nSilk/Blond\n\n- if Silk replaced Blond and there weren't a distinction between Silk \nand Blond, why would they say it was Silk's now, since it had always \nbeen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are continuing to assume that Blond and Silk are totally identical. \nGiven that assumption, you're right: the sentence should read either \n\"Both were Silk's\" or \"One was Silk's.\"\n\nBut given the assumption that Silk does NOT exactly resemble Typhon, the \nsentence should read either \"One was Silk's\" or \"One was Silk's.\"\n\nSo we can rule out only that Silk replaced Piaton AND he and Typhon are \nidentical. Both seem implausible to me; there are too many \nidentifications of Silk with Typhon and too little evidence that Silk \nlooks exactly like Typhon.\n\nWe are after all talking about a text written by Wolfe. If he had wanted \nto be clearer he would have said \"The lighter one was...\" or \"The darker \none was now...\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3E2D5.2010005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T19:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 2:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSeverian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his own head chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually demonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share. Moreover Typhon\nsays he was not born, in the way Severian understands it. The evidence seems pretty\nclear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his original self." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly Typhon is uncannily careless of his *body*. But recall your \nown theory that what many characters in TBOTNS desire is immortality. \nHis body is now just in the way, whether it is his original one or not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3EC65.4080303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T20:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure Typhon actually believed that his face was the source of \nhis charisma. I think his face was simply the face his charisma was \nattached to, and he as much as said so: \"it is the face [and I think he \nwas speaking generally here] that men are accustomed to obey .\" Echoing \nMalrubius' \"attachment to the person of the monarch\" and meaning only \nthose men who are *already* accustomed to obey it, not that as many as \nten generations from now men will suddenly obey a man with a magic face.\n\n[The only way that could work is for Pas to have been made to look \nexactly like Typhon and kept in view so that Pas could pop into Silk, \nwho meanwhile looks as much like Pas as possible, and be tyrant again. \nBut Pas was murdered, or people presumably would have been writing \n\"*Pas* for Calde\" on the walls. So the whole Oz-like plan appears to \nhave been rather fuzzy. Pas's face is not exactly everywhere, even \nallowing for the campaign to erase him. Typhon's own face may have been \nalmost entirely unknown, since showing it had no purpose---no one knew \nwho he was. The \"Is Silk Typhon?\" question is not whether Silk looks \nlike Typhon but whether he looks like Pas, with whom Silk has no precise \ngenetic relationship, despite some arguments to the contrary.]\n\nFurthermore, I don't see any evidence that Silk is persuasive *because* \nof his face, although he must be good-looking enough. He's persuasive \nbecause he's decisive and humble and smart and sees things clearly. \nThese may or may not be Typhonian characteristics.\n\nPas also may have been turned by the Outsider. But do you mean *Pas* \nwould download himself? Funny, it seems to have almost gone the other \nway---or maybe it did---with Pas getting Silk's face but staying on the \nWhorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 1:16 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think Silk's ability to lead/influence others IS the charisma Typhon\nassociates with his face. The embryo that became Silk was a clone of\nTyphon into which he intended to d/l himself on arrival at the Whorl's\ndestination, thus preserving his \"face.\"\n\nOn Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silk's description as a slender but fit guy WOULD NOT MAKE HIM SIMILAR IN BUILD TO piaton at all: he is described as somebody who could run all night, whereas, while Piaton is not THE biggest of Typhon's servants, his description of one of palpable extreme strength. Chenille \"looks\" stockier and stronger than Silk. I doubt she would look stronger than Piaton. These descriptions preclude Silk being any kind of Piaton - he is the stuff of the original monarch, insofar as he might be related at all to him.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T20:50:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Am I the only one that thinks that the mandragora and the Prime\nCalcula are one and the same? I know some believe it is a reference\nto the Mainframe AI but is there any mention of a prime Calculator\nanywhere? And why would Echidna mention this when asked about Pas\npossessing bodies? And theres mention of the Citadel in the same\nsentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: Silk's description as a slender but fit guy WOULD NOT MAKE\nHIM\nSIMILAR IN BUILD TO piaton at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I think Silk's ability to lead/influence others IS the\ncharisma\nTyphon associates with his face. The embryo that became Silk was a clone of\nTyphon\ninto which he intended to d/l himself on arrival at the Whorl's\ndestination, thus\npreserving his \"face.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I think Dan'l's idea is more in line with larry's theory (and what is\nactually\ngoing on, imho).\n\nLeaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora\nseems\nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded\ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the\nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not to\nrefer to\nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is.\n\nSeverian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his own\nhead chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually\ndemonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share.\nMoreover Typhon\nsays he was not born, in the way Severian understands it. The evidence seems\npretty\nclear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his original\nself.\n\nI don't have a definite opinion on what this means in regard to Silk but I\nthink there is\nsurely some connection there. FWIW, I'll mention that at the end of RttW,\nduring a\ndream-travel to Urth, they are on a ship. Along with snaky-armed Scylla (or\nis it Cilinia?\ndoesn't matter) there is a big, blonde guy steering the ship. He is clearly\nsupposed to be\nconnected to Typhon/Pas in some manner.\n\nIs this dream-travel version of Pas meant to be Silk? Or is it Jugano? Oreb?\nI dunno.\nMaybe someone can make sense of it better than me. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3F57B.8050104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T20:56:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3DFF2.8050208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that\nSilk doesn't recognise Typhon, there's no reason he should,\nhe's never met him. If it's that Silk doesn't recognise\nhimself, well, one more hint that he doesn't look like Pas\n(who probably looks like Typhon, and if he doesn't it's at\nbest neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk\nshould look that much like a parody of a painting of Pas that\nprobably was meant to glorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it\ncertainly isn't absent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look\nthat much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was\nmeant to glorify him\" but you don't know what it is, would you at\nleast care to say why you think this is true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Clones usually look like the original and parodies usually look\nlike the original, so there is just a wee possibility that a clone\nof someone should look a wee bit like a parody of that someone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd put the likely resemblance as a little stronger than \"a wee bit,\"\n but if we're talking about a minimum (potentially after surgery,\nscars, etc.) then I agree, especially since the discussion was about\nlooking \"exactly\" like an original.\n\nHowever, I think some attention to the word \"parody\" in the sense of\n \"caricature\" is in order. A caricature is the very opposite of an\nexact copy, in that it exaggerates salient features. So does\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does, but recognisability, which is the issue, is a desired feature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness\nfamiliar is evidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone:\nand the conclusion is that while it need not be against it, it\ncertainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is neither neutral nor otherwise. It may or may not be against\nit; it may not be for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please let us know when have an argument for this conclusion, or at\nleast when you care to show a logical path to it, other than simply\nrepeating your assertion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The argument for the conclusion was in the paragraphs above the\nconclusion, which you skipped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But remember, the evidence in question is not \"Silk not finding\nPas's likeness familiar\" but rather Silk not commenting on it\n(i.e., Horn not commenting, which really means only that Silk\ndidn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone\n(\"By the way, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be\nevidence of anything at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It isn't it can't, it's it needn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, it's that it isn't. See my argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your argument, while tenable, only addresses a part of the issue, and \nthere is a world of difference between 'this isn't 100% certain' and \n'the likelihood of this is 50%'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from\nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not\nhaving an obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less\nlikely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and\nme?\n\nIf you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their\noriginals, that would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do\nyou base your assumption?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where do you run into clones that do not look almost exactly like their \noriginals? (I'm anticipating something about FHC, but for the sake of \nbeing a discussion of any usefulness, we should be spared the \nFHC-specific bits.) A 'clone' is what we call someone whose DNA came \nfrom another one. Given the same, or roughly the same, DNA, you end up \nwith very similar, if not identical, organisms. I suppose you can tinker \nwith the DNA, but there comes a point when it's no longer meaningful to \nrefer to the resulting individual as a 'clone'.\n\nMoreover, this was on whether Pas, not Silk, looked like Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official\nportrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original\n Jesus, who had a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean\nthe \"actual Jesus who would do such a thing\" would want an\nexactly correct portrait, nothing exaggerated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When did we begin talking about exageration? I don't think a\npropaganda portrait of Stalin that made him look like Pi?sudski\nwould be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, okay. But someone mentioned parody, which usually suggests\ncareful exaggeration as a technique. See above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But one it comes to that, I don't know what you're arguing. I've clearly \nsaid:\n\n- Pas probably looks like Typhon, but one can argue otherwise\n- If Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Typhon, but one can \nargue otherwise\n- Therefore if Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Pas, but \none can argue otherwise\n- What one cannot argue is that Silk not looking like Pas is evidence \nthat Silk is Typhon's clone\n\nI wonder which of the four you find objection with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin\nthat gives him his charisma, but if you think such portraits are\nalways extremely accurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for\nthe theory that he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever,\neh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I don't follow this one.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You said Typhon commissioned the portrait with two heads; you said he\n was fixated on people seeing his original face. If you see no\ntension there, forget it.\n\nFor all we know, Typhon did NOT commission either painting. He may\nnot have had total control of it, or \"died\" before the Whorl was\nlaunched. It was a huge project." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say anything of the sort. I said the odds were that the \nportrait would be reasonably faithful _but it might as well not be_. \nThat's what qualifying the possibilities with 'probably' means.\n\nThe _original_ argument was that Pas didn't look like Typhon because, \notherwise, Silk would have recognised Pas as Typhon and shows no hint of \ndoing so. I merely pointed out the problems in that reasoning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas\nby Khypris) replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk\nridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were\nPiaton and Typhon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his\ndepiction including Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads. One was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aside from the fact that\n\n- if Silk replaced Piaton and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, they wouldn't say 'one' was Silk's, as both would\nbe Silk/Blond\n\n- if Silk replaced Blond and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, why would they say it was Silk's now, since it had\nalways been?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are continuing to assume that Blond and Silk are totally\nidentical. Given that assumption, you're right: the sentence should\nread either \"Both were Silk's\" or \"One was Silk's.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The issue is that I'm not assuming. I said 'if'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But given the assumption that Silk does NOT exactly resemble Typhon,\nthe sentence should read either \"One was Silk's\" or \"One was\nSilk's.\"\n\nSo we can rule out only that Silk replaced Piaton AND he and Typhon\nare identical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we can rule out any one in which Silk and Typhon are strikingly \nsimilar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both seem implausible to me; there are too many\nidentifications of Silk with Typhon and too little evidence that Silk\n looks exactly like Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is why the clone (as opposed to some other blood relationship) \ntheory is unsatisfying for most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are after all talking about a text written by Wolfe. If he had\nwanted to be clearer he would have said \"The lighter one was...\" or\n\"The darker one was now...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like that couldn't be argued away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3F75F.9050406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nAm I the only one that thinks that the mandragora and the Prime\nCalcula are one and the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's been floated around more than once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know some believe it is a reference to the Mainframe AI but is\nthere any mention of a prime Calculator anywhere? And why would\nEchidna mention this when asked about Pas possessing bodies? And\ntheres mention of the Citadel in the same sentence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the problem is that nobody knows what to do with either the\nreference to a 'Prime Calcula' (whatever that might be, is it the \nKaaba's stone?) or the Mandragora. It looks as if cutting them out of \nthe story loses us nothing. Which we know can't be the case. But having \nthe 'Prime Calcula' be the Mandragora and the Mandragora be something \nrelated to Typhon or Severian opens which perspectives?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3EC65.4080303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'm not sure Typhon actually believed that his face was the source of his\ncharisma. ... I don't see any evidence that Silk is persuasive *because* of\nhis face..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're missing my point. I put \"face\" in quotes because I don't\nbelieve for a moment that the face is the source of Silk's charisma.\nBut I am suggesting that Typhon had the same persuasive/commanding\nability as Silk; that this was a genetically bred ability; and that\nTyphon wanted to have it when he (via Pas) came to the Whorl's\ndestination.\n\nAnd, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his own head chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually demonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share. The evidence seems \npretty clear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his original self." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Certainly Typhon is uncannily careless of his *body*. But recall your \nown theory that what many characters in TBOTNS desire is immortality. \nHis body is now just in the way, whether it is his original one or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I think immortality is a key concept. Notice that I didn't discuss Typhon's original\n\"body\" but rather his original \"self\". Immortality might be an inherent quality of such\nbeings (not a far-feched conclusion for beings which can so easily copy themselves).\n \nI strongly consider that Typhon's true, original nature is akin to that of ancient gods, \nmonsters, angels, demons, etc. They are more of what we are forced to call a \"spirit\" in\nnature. They don't have any sort of \"body\" that would make sense to human perception. In\nmany cases (notably Zeus and Jaweh) a human being is destroyed if ever confronted with the\ntrue, full glory of a god's presence.\n \nThus pagan gods, angels, demons etc. must take on a material, human (or animal or burning bush)\nform to allow them to interact with us. I think this may be what is going on with Typhon and \nthe other gods of the Whorl. With Shadow Children also. And perhaps even inhumi if their \noriginal parasitic form was even less substantial than reptiles or lianas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3FE34.4090109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:33:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 3:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAnd, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is said so often.\nBut if Typhon wanted Pas to possess Silk as the ruler of Blue, why \ndidn't he do possess Silk at the Mainframe or immediately after?\nOr, for that matter, any time in the years after Pas was resurrected?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED40060.3020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:42:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3FE34.4090109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 3:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is said so often.\nBut if Typhon wanted Pas to possess Silk as the ruler of Blue, why\ndidn't he do possess Silk at the Mainframe or immediately after?\nOr, for that matter, any time in the years after Pas was resurrected?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, for that matter, what for? What good is it for Typhon if some guy in \na far away solar system is possessed by a copy of Typhon's mind?\n\nI rather think Silk may have been meant as a viceroy. Not for Pas, a \ncomputer program which was meant as a tool, but for Typhon himself, who \nwasn't planning to get dead." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T21:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah I always wondered if Typhon was in fact a fallen Hierodule.\n\"Better to rule in Hell than to be a slave to Heaven\" indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his\nown head chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually\ndemonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share. The\nevidence seems\npretty clear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his\noriginal self." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Certainly Typhon is uncannily careless of his *body*. But\nrecall your\nown theory that what many characters in TBOTNS desire is immortality.\nHis body is now just in the way, whether it is his original one or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I think immortality is a key concept. Notice that I didn't discuss\nTyphon's original\n\"body\" but rather his original \"self\". Immortality might be an inherent\nquality of such\nbeings (not a far-feched conclusion for beings which can so easily copy\nthemselves).\n\nI strongly consider that Typhon's true, original nature is akin to that of\nancient gods,\nmonsters, angels, demons, etc. They are more of what we are forced to call a\n\"spirit\" in\nnature. They don't have any sort of \"body\" that would make sense to human\nperception. In\nmany cases (notably Zeus and Jaweh) a human being is destroyed if ever\nconfronted with the\ntrue, full glory of a god's presence.\n\nThus pagan gods, angels, demons etc. must take on a material, human (or\nanimal or burning bush)\nform to allow them to interact with us. I think this may be what is going on\nwith Typhon and\nthe other gods of the Whorl. With Shadow Children also. And perhaps even\ninhumi if their\noriginal parasitic form was even less substantial than reptiles or lianas.\n\t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED40796.8030108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T22:13:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3F57B.8050104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 3:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that\nSilk doesn't recognise Typhon, there's no reason he should,\nhe's never met him. If it's that Silk doesn't recognise\nhimself, well, one more hint that he doesn't look like Pas\n(who probably looks like Typhon, and if he doesn't it's at\nbest neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk\nshould look that much like a parody of a painting of Pas that\nprobably was meant to glorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it\ncertainly isn't absent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look\nthat much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was\nmeant to glorify him\" but you don't know what it is, would you at\nleast care to say why you think this is true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Clones usually look like the original and parodies usually look\nlike the original, so there is just a wee possibility that a clone\nof someone should look a wee bit like a parody of that someone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd put the likely resemblance as a little stronger than \"a wee bit,\"\n but if we're talking about a minimum (potentially after surgery,\nscars, etc.) then I agree, especially since the discussion was about\nlooking \"exactly\" like an original.\n\nHowever, I think some attention to the word \"parody\" in the sense of\n \"caricature\" is in order. A caricature is the very opposite of an\nexact copy, in that it exaggerates salient features. So does\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does, but recognisability, which is the issue, is a desired feature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness\nfamiliar is evidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone:\nand the conclusion is that while it need not be against it, it\ncertainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is neither neutral nor otherwise. It may or may not be against\nit; it may not be for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please let us know when have an argument for this conclusion, or at\nleast when you care to show a logical path to it, other than simply\nrepeating your assertion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The argument for the conclusion was in the paragraphs above the\nconclusion, which you skipped." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I read all of it. You didn't present an argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But remember, the evidence in question is not \"Silk not finding\nPas's likeness familiar\" but rather Silk not commenting on it\n(i.e., Horn not commenting, which really means only that Silk\ndidn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone\n(\"By the way, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be\nevidence of anything at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It isn't it can't, it's it needn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, it's that it isn't. See my argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your argument, while tenable, only addresses a part of the issue, and \nthere is a world of difference between 'this isn't 100% certain' and \n'the likelihood of this is 50%'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither of which is anything you or I wrote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from\nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not\nhaving an obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less\nlikely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and\nme?\n\nIf you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their\noriginals, that would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do\nyou base your assumption?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where do you run into clones that do not look almost exactly like \ntheir originals? (I'm anticipating something about FHC, but for the \nsake of being a discussion of any usefulness, we should be spared the \nFHC-specific bits.) A 'clone' is what we call someone whose DNA came \nfrom another one. Given the same, or roughly the same, DNA, you end up \nwith very similar, if not identical, organisms. I suppose you can \ntinker with the DNA, but there comes a point when it's no longer \nmeaningful to refer to the resulting individual as a 'clone'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tinker schminker. The critical difference is between genotype and phenotype." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, this was on whether Pas, not Silk, looked like Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Pas doesn't need to look like Typhon, since no one on the Whorl \nknows or cares what Typhon looks like. Silk doesn't need to look like \nTyphon, since no one on the Whorl knows or cares what Typhon looks like. \nBut Silk should look roughly like Pas, whom no one has seen in a \ngeneration, if he is a clone of Typhon for Pas to possess. Does he? I \npropose that yes, he looks *roughly* like these two faces few people \nhave seen in a generation or more (remember that their magic windows \ndon't work). Not enough for anyone to comment on it, but possibly enough \nfor Silk to note and NOT comment on it. We'll never know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official\nportrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original\n Jesus, who had a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean\nthe \"actual Jesus who would do such a thing\" would want an\nexactly correct portrait, nothing exaggerated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When did we begin talking about exageration? I don't think a\npropaganda portrait of Stalin that made him look like Pi?sudski\nwould be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, okay. But someone mentioned parody, which usually suggests\ncareful exaggeration as a technique. See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But one it comes to that, I don't know what you're arguing. I've \nclearly said:\n\n- Pas probably looks like Typhon, but one can argue otherwise\n- If Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Typhon, but one can \nargue otherwise\n- Therefore if Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Pas, but \none can argue otherwise\n- What one cannot argue is that Silk not looking like Pas is evidence \nthat Silk is Typhon's clone\n\nI wonder which of the four you find objection with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of them. What I object to is your straitjacketing the discussion \ninto false categories by ignoring the word *exactly*. Pas probably looks \nroughly like Typhon; Silk probably looks roughly like Typhon; Silk \nprobably looks roughly like Pas. What they don't do is look *exactly* \nlike each other.\n\nAs for your last assertion---so what? Who has argued that? Rather, I \nhave stated that it's a matter of the narrative commenting or not \ncommenting. It is NOT a simple matter of whether Silk recognizes \nhimself. _Silk not looking like Pas is NOT evidence that Silk is NOT \nTyphon's clone_. It's neutral. That's what we're disagreeing on, remember?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin\nthat gives him his charisma, but if you think such portraits are\nalways extremely accurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for\nthe theory that he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever,\neh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(I don't follow this one.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You said Typhon commissioned the portrait with two heads; you said he\n was fixated on people seeing his original face. If you see no\ntension there, forget it.\n\nFor all we know, Typhon did NOT commission either painting. He may\nnot have had total control of it, or \"died\" before the Whorl was\nlaunched. It was a huge project." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say anything of the sort. I said the odds were that the \nportrait would be reasonably faithful _but it might as well not be_. \nThat's what qualifying the possibilities with 'probably' means.\n\nThe _original_ argument was that Pas didn't look like Typhon because, \notherwise, Silk would have recognised Pas as Typhon and shows no hint \nof doing so. I merely pointed out the problems in that reasoning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did Silk see Typhon when he knew it was Typhon and not Pas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas\nby Khypris) replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk\nridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were\nPiaton and Typhon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his\ndepiction including Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads. One was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Aside from the fact that\n\n- if Silk replaced Piaton and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, they wouldn't say 'one' was Silk's, as both would\nbe Silk/Blond\n\n- if Silk replaced Blond and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, why would they say it was Silk's now, since it had\nalways been?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are continuing to assume that Blond and Silk are totally\nidentical. Given that assumption, you're right: the sentence should\nread either \"Both were Silk's\" or \"One was Silk's.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The issue is that I'm not assuming. I said 'if'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must have missed the \"if not\" parts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But given the assumption that Silk does NOT exactly resemble Typhon,\nthe sentence should read either \"One was Silk's\" or \"One was\nSilk's.\"\n\nSo we can rule out only that Silk replaced Piaton AND he and Typhon\nare identical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we can rule out any one in which Silk and Typhon are \nstrikingly similar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Both seem implausible to me; there are too many\nidentifications of Silk with Typhon and too little evidence that Silk\n looks exactly like Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that is why the clone (as opposed to some other blood \nrelationship) theory is unsatisfying for most." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, because you ignore the difference between genotype and phenotype." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We are after all talking about a text written by Wolfe. If he had\nwanted to be clearer he would have said \"The lighter one was...\" or\n\"The darker one was now...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like that couldn't be argued away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever that means. I will leave it for you to argue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED40966.9030508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T22:21:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Understood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure Typhon actually believed that his face was the source of his\ncharisma. ... I don't see any evidence that Silk is persuasive *because* of\nhis face..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're missing my point. I put \"face\" in quotes because I don't\nbelieve for a moment that the face is the source of Silk's charisma.\nBut I am suggesting that Typhon had the same persuasive/commanding\nability as Silk; that this was a genetically bred ability; and that\nTyphon wanted to have it when he (via Pas) came to the Whorl's\ndestination.\n\nAnd, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED40C91.70102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T22:34:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED40060.3020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 4:42 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 3:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is said so often.\nBut if Typhon wanted Pas to possess Silk as the ruler of Blue, why\ndidn't he do possess Silk at the Mainframe or immediately after?\nOr, for that matter, any time in the years after Pas was resurrected?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, for that matter, what for? What good is it for Typhon if some guy \nin a far away solar system is possessed by a copy of Typhon's mind?\n\nI rather think Silk may have been meant as a viceroy. Not for Pas, a \ncomputer program which was meant as a tool, but for Typhon himself, \nwho wasn't planning to get dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is that...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED41277.9040204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T23:00:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED40796.8030108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. You may go on, but \nas far as I can tell our only disagreements are on two points (to sum up \nwhat I also wrote below):\n\n- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to \nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X, it \nmay well be otherwise\". That seriously gets on my nerves. If you don't \nsee yourself in this picture, then maybe it's my wrong impression. If \nyou don't like it as well, that's very good.\n\n- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can \nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just \nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the \nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't give \nyou two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that could \nhave been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 3:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that\nSilk doesn't recognise Typhon, there's no reason he should,\nhe's never met him. If it's that Silk doesn't recognise\nhimself, well, one more hint that he doesn't look like Pas\n(who probably looks like Typhon, and if he doesn't it's at\nbest neutral data, not evidence for anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk\nshould look that much like a parody of a painting of Pas that\nprobably was meant to glorify him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it\ncertainly isn't absent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If you think there is a real reason why \"why Silk should look\nthat much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was\nmeant to glorify him\" but you don't know what it is, would you at\nleast care to say why you think this is true?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Clones usually look like the original and parodies usually look\nlike the original, so there is just a wee possibility that a clone\nof someone should look a wee bit like a parody of that someone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd put the likely resemblance as a little stronger than \"a wee bit,\"\nbut if we're talking about a minimum (potentially after surgery,\nscars, etc.) then I agree, especially since the discussion was about\nlooking \"exactly\" like an original.\n\nHowever, I think some attention to the word \"parody\" in the sense of\n\"caricature\" is in order. A caricature is the very opposite of an\nexact copy, in that it exaggerates salient features. So does\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It does, but recognisability, which is the issue, is a desired feature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we're talking about Silk not recognising himself in Pas's picture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness\nfamiliar is evidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone:\nand the conclusion is that while it need not be against it, it\ncertainly isn't for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think it is completely neutral in both directions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is neither neutral nor otherwise. It may or may not be against\nit; it may not be for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Please let us know when have an argument for this conclusion, or at\nleast when you care to show a logical path to it, other than simply\nrepeating your assertion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The argument for the conclusion was in the paragraphs above the\nconclusion, which you skipped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I read all of it. You didn't present an argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I did. That's in fact all I did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But remember, the evidence in question is not \"Silk not finding\nPas's likeness familiar\" but rather Silk not commenting on it\n(i.e., Horn not commenting, which really means only that Silk\ndidn't tell Horn).\n\nSince Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone\n(\"By the way, Horn, I'm Pas,\" said Silk ... not!), it can't be\nevidence of anything at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It isn't it can't, it's it needn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, it's that it isn't. See my argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your argument, while tenable, only addresses a part of the issue, and\nthere is a world of difference between 'this isn't 100% certain' and\n'the likelihood of this is 50%'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither of which is anything you or I wrote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it is. You chose to depict something that merely isn't certain \nas 'there is no real reason [for it]'. It's not the first time, either, \nhere or in History. And I really, really, dislike that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why? Where does this assumption come from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from\nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not\nhaving an obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less\nlikely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and\nme?\n\nIf you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their\noriginals, that would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do\nyou base your assumption?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where do you run into clones that do not look almost exactly like\ntheir originals? (I'm anticipating something about FHC, but for the\nsake of being a discussion of any usefulness, we should be spared the\nFHC-specific bits.) A 'clone' is what we call someone whose DNA came\nfrom another one. Given the same, or roughly the same, DNA, you end up\nwith very similar, if not identical, organisms. I suppose you can\ntinker with the DNA, but there comes a point when it's no longer\nmeaningful to refer to the resulting individual as a 'clone'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tinker schminker. The critical difference is between genotype and\nphenotype." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you mean by that?\nA genotype and a phenotype aren't 'different'. A phenotype is an \nexpression of a genotype. The same genotype always results in very \nsimilar phenotypes, unless you do extensive manipulation of the \nenvironment, which is not the case here (Silk was born of a pregnancy), \nand anyway would result in differences of a different order than mere \nfacial resemblance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Moreover, this was on whether Pas, not Silk, looked like Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. Pas doesn't need to look like Typhon, since no one on the Whorl\nknows or cares what Typhon looks like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though neither does he need *not* to look like Typhon, so that remains \nthe null hypothesis. Ready to be cast aside, but a reason should be \nprovided." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk doesn't need to look like\nTyphon, since no one on the Whorl knows or cares what Typhon looks like.\nBut Silk should look roughly like Pas, whom no one has seen in a\ngeneration, if he is a clone of Typhon for Pas to possess. Does he? I\npropose that yes, he looks *roughly* like these two faces few people\nhave seen in a generation or more (remember that their magic windows\ndon't work)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Pas was dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not enough for anyone to comment on it, but possibly enough\nfor Silk to note and NOT comment on it. We'll never know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think anyone has claimed that people should comment on Silk \nlooking a bit like Pas, only on Silk looking an awful lot like Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official\nportrait?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original\nJesus, who had a fixation with his likeness? I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean\nthe \"actual Jesus who would do such a thing\" would want an\nexactly correct portrait, nothing exaggerated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "When did we begin talking about exageration? I don't think a\npropaganda portrait of Stalin that made him look like Pi?sudski\nwould be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, okay. But someone mentioned parody, which usually suggests\ncareful exaggeration as a technique. See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But one it comes to that, I don't know what you're arguing. I've\nclearly said:\n\n- Pas probably looks like Typhon, but one can argue otherwise\n- If Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Typhon, but one can\nargue otherwise\n- Therefore if Silk is Typhon's clone he probably looks like Pas, but\none can argue otherwise\n- What one cannot argue is that Silk not looking like Pas is evidence\nthat Silk is Typhon's clone\n\nI wonder which of the four you find objection with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of them. What I object to is your straitjacketing the discussion\ninto false categories by ignoring the word *exactly*. Pas probably looks\nroughly like Typhon; Silk probably looks roughly like Typhon; Silk\nprobably looks roughly like Pas. What they don't do is look *exactly*\nlike each other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I didn't straitjacket the discussion. There has been nobody claiming \nthat they must look exactly alike. Though, if Silk is a clone of Typhon \nin any meaningful sense, he really must look like his twin brother given \nthe other particulars of the story. That's just that. You seem to want \nSilk to be a clone of Typhon without the implications that that brings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for your last assertion---so what? Who has argued that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's when/why I entered this discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather, I\nhave stated that it's a matter of the narrative commenting or not\ncommenting. It is NOT a simple matter of whether Silk recognizes\nhimself. _Silk not looking like Pas is NOT evidence that Silk is NOT\nTyphon's clone_. It's neutral. That's what we're disagreeing on, remember?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and the way you state it here, you are wrong. It's not neutral. You \nmust provide a reason for Pas *not* to look like Typhon. All you have \nprovided are reasons for Pas not *having to* look like Typhon. Should \nyou provide a reason for Pas *not* to look like Typhon, *then* Silk not \nlooking like Pas would be noncommittal as to his being Typhon's clone or \nnot *in the framework of that reason*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin\nthat gives him his charisma, but if you think such portraits are\nalways extremely accurate I've got a bridge to sell you.\n\nNote also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for\nthe theory that he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever,\neh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(I don't follow this one.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You said Typhon commissioned the portrait with two heads; you said he\nwas fixated on people seeing his original face. If you see no\ntension there, forget it.\n\nFor all we know, Typhon did NOT commission either painting. He may\nnot have had total control of it, or \"died\" before the Whorl was\nlaunched. It was a huge project." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't say anything of the sort. I said the odds were that the\nportrait would be reasonably faithful _but it might as well not be_.\nThat's what qualifying the possibilities with 'probably' means.\n\nThe _original_ argument was that Pas didn't look like Typhon because,\notherwise, Silk would have recognised Pas as Typhon and shows no hint\nof doing so. I merely pointed out the problems in that reasoning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where did Silk see Typhon when he knew it was Typhon and not Pas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the first problem that was pointed out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas\nby Khypris) replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk\nridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were\nPiaton and Typhon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his\ndepiction including Silk is this:\n\nThe face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.\nIn its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and\ntwo heads. One was Silk's.\n\nNo mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Aside from the fact that\n\n- if Silk replaced Piaton and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, they wouldn't say 'one' was Silk's, as both would\nbe Silk/Blond\n\n- if Silk replaced Blond and there weren't a distinction between\nSilk and Blond, why would they say it was Silk's now, since it had\nalways been?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You are continuing to assume that Blond and Silk are totally\nidentical. Given that assumption, you're right: the sentence should\nread either \"Both were Silk's\" or \"One was Silk's.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The issue is that I'm not assuming. I said 'if'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must have missed the \"if not\" parts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wherever there's an if, there's an else. An empty else is usually \nellided. If Silk and Blond are distinct, then the episode actually makes \nsense (in both my hypotheses above, it doesn't; it's a reductio ad \nabsurdum)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But given the assumption that Silk does NOT exactly resemble Typhon,\nthe sentence should read either \"One was Silk's\" or \"One was\nSilk's.\"\n\nSo we can rule out only that Silk replaced Piaton AND he and Typhon\nare identical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we can rule out any one in which Silk and Typhon are\nstrikingly similar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Both seem implausible to me; there are too many\nidentifications of Silk with Typhon and too little evidence that Silk\nlooks exactly like Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And that is why the clone (as opposed to some other blood\nrelationship) theory is unsatisfying for most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, because you ignore the difference between genotype and phenotype." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There you go again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We are after all talking about a text written by Wolfe. If he had\nwanted to be clearer he would have said \"The lighter one was...\" or\n\"The darker one was now...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Like that couldn't be argued away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever that means. I will leave it for you to argue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If only." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED41B0E.6050507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T23:36:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED41277.9040204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\n- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to \nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X, \nit may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism. Perhaps \nyou mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be otherwise\". \nEverybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can \nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just \nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the \nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't \ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that \ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Silk is a clone of Typhon, we are probably supposed to believe Silk \nlooked a lot like Typhon when he was young. However, there it is nowhere \nasserted that either head of Pas looks just like Typhon...unless someone \nis going to argue that the original Echidna had snakes in her hair and \nCilinia had squid arms." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322523784.90359.YahooMailNeo@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T23:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora \nseems \nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded \ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the \nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not \nto refer to \nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nOddly enough, a possible answer is at Wikipedia.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of the mandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a soil sufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said root, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\"??A Wikipedia editor has added, \"(See: Homunculus).\"\n\nFrom /Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual/?by ?liphas L?vi, translated by?Arthur Edward Waite. The book is at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=e0GcOrh-xNAC&pg=PA323\n\nThere's a little more on plant-animal hybridization in the full passage, and perhaps people will find other points of interest.\n\nSo this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root and humanized it, creating a homunculus.\n\nNo doubt there's much more to say about this, but this margin is too small.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED41F91.1020906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T23:56:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED41B0E.6050507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to\nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X,\nit may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism. Perhaps\nyou mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be otherwise\".\nEverybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like a \nduck and quacks like a duck. If you want it *not* to be a duck, you'll \nhave to say why you think it isn't a duck. It may perfectly well not be \na duck. However, if you don't even care to say why you want it not to be \na duck, please don't go around saying 'there's no reason to believe it \nis a duck'. Because, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the \nodds are it is a duck. Presuming it to be a duck is agnostic. 'Agnostic' \ndoesn't mean not taking a stance. It doesn't mean bumping into furniture \nbecause that thing that looks like a piece of furniture may or may not \nbe a piece of furniture. Where is literary criticism different? If we're \ntold enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court, the odds are \nit was in the ball court. The odds are not that it was in Maytera Mint's \nchambers. Nor are we to say that there is no reason to think it was in \nthe ball court." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can\nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just\nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the\nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't\ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that\ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Silk is a clone of Typhon, we are probably supposed to believe Silk\nlooked a lot like Typhon when he was young. However, there it is nowhere\nasserted that either head of Pas looks just like Typhon...unless someone\nis going to argue that the original Echidna had snakes in her hair and\nCilinia had squid arms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether Pas looks like Typhon is a completely different question. Here I \nwas addressing the issue of phenotypes/genotypes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4200A.6000905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-28T23:58:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED41277.9040204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nDavid, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I heartily agree (I think)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You may go on, but as far as I can tell our only disagreements are on \ntwo points (to sum up what I also wrote below):\n\n- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to \nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X, \nit may well be otherwise\". That seriously gets on my nerves. If you \ndon't see yourself in this picture, then maybe it's my wrong \nimpression. If you don't like it as well, that's very good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I wouldn't go so far as to put odds on anything, but I'm pretty \nsure that kind of argument pisses me off too. You can't prove negatives, \nso why argue for them? All that does is shoot down other people's \nsuggestions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can \nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just \nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the \nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't \ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that \ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a few comments which may or may not be counterarguments:\n\n(1) You and I have never seen a human clone. Therefore, we really have \nno idea of that plasticity or how much control one may have over it or \nhow we would react to it: Would you recognize your own cloned brother? \nMaybe you would think so at first and then dismiss it for many reasons.\n\n(2) Human faces are as different from other species as one could \nimagine. We have little facial fur and have evolved brains that focus to \nan amazing degree on facial recognition and distinction. We see \nresemblances easily, but also see differences: \"Hey, that guy looks like \nTom Hanks, except for the beard and the hair and the clothes....\"\n\n(3) Yet our memories are poor and we really only recognize well about 80 \nface types. But most of the research on this came out since BNS if not BLS.\n\nMy point is that there is enough plasticity here for Wolfe to do \nwhatever he needs to do. It's a major plot problem for characters to \nrecognize one another when they can't be allowed to, as well as a great \ntactic to have characters suspect one another when they \"just can't\" be \nthat person. Wolfe does all of this and more with great deviousness and \nprecision. If there are strong signals that Silk is a clone of Typhon \nand strong signals that Silk doesn't look enough like him to be \nrecognized (even by himself!) in a whorl where Typhon is forgotten or \ndistorted, then that's the way it is. But this is not a \"just so\" \nstory---I hate those too.\n\nBoth are true, and if you want a biological explanation it lies in these \n3 points and the fact that genotype is not phenotype, and the cloning \ntechniques are unknown anyway. Certainly we know embryos are grown in \nvivo rather than in a vat, and that means \"maternal\" hormones will \ndirectly and possibly hugely affect phenotype.\n\nI prefer text-based arguments such as those I laid out in my post to \nDan'l: Pas has been dead 30 years, the windows are all dark, and Typhon \nis unknown." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED420FB.2020807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:02:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322523784.90359.YahooMailNeo@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora\nseems\nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded\ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the\nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not\nto refer to\nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nOddly enough, a possible answer is at Wikipedia.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of the mandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a soil sufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said root, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\" A Wikipedia editor has added, \"(See: Homunculus).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From /Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual/ by ?liphas L?vi, translated by Arthur Edward Waite. The book is at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=e0GcOrh-xNAC&pg=PA323" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a little more on plant-animal hybridization in the full passage, and perhaps people will find other points of interest.\n\nSo this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root and humanized it, creating a homunculus.\n\nNo doubt there's much more to say about this, but this margin is too small.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome. My guess is that it indicates someone tried to grow a human in \na vat, as in Dune, vs surgically placing it in a womb, as done by Blood." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED42437.8040401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED41F91.1020906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to\nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X,\nit may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism. Perhaps\nyou mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be otherwise\".\nEverybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like a \nduck and quacks like a duck. If you want it *not* to be a duck, you'll \nhave to say why you think it isn't a duck. It may perfectly well not \nbe a duck. However, if you don't even care to say why you want it not \nto be a duck, please don't go around saying 'there's no reason to \nbelieve it is a duck'. Because, if it looks like a duck and quacks \nlike a duck, the odds are it is a duck. Presuming it to be a duck is \nagnostic. 'Agnostic' doesn't mean not taking a stance. It doesn't mean \nbumping into furniture because that thing that looks like a piece of \nfurniture may or may not be a piece of furniture. Where is literary \ncriticism different? If we're told enlightenment came to Patera Silk \nin the ball court, the odds are it was in the ball court. The odds are \nnot that it was in Maytera Mint's chambers. Nor are we to say that \nthere is no reason to think it was in the ball court." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a simple case, of course. Others are not so simple. I agree, for \nexample, that if we read \"X is a clone of Y\" then we can have a working \nhypothesis that maybe Y robbed the bank, not X who has been falsely \naccused. We have to consider that cloning may be read as identity.\n\nWhen we see signs that cloning might not produce identical twins---when \ncharacters have no trouble telling X and Y apart---we need to examine \nour assumptions. That's not the same as asserting that \"there is no \nreason to believe\" cloning = identity but I can see how they could be \nmistaken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can\nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just\nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the\nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't\ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that\ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Silk is a clone of Typhon, we are probably supposed to believe Silk\nlooked a lot like Typhon when he was young. However, there it is nowhere\nasserted that either head of Pas looks just like Typhon...unless someone\nis going to argue that the original Echidna had snakes in her hair and\nCilinia had squid arms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether Pas looks like Typhon is a completely different question. Here \nI was addressing the issue of phenotypes/genotypes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean Pas's resemblance to Typhon is purely a matter of artistic, \ni.e., painterly, or for that matter political, license? If so, I agree, \nthough the two questions are hardly unrelated." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED42471.2000804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4200A.6000905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 6:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I heartily agree (I think)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You may go on, but as far as I can tell our only disagreements are on\ntwo points (to sum up what I also wrote below):\n\n- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to\nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X,\nit may well be otherwise\". That seriously gets on my nerves. If you\ndon't see yourself in this picture, then maybe it's my wrong\nimpression. If you don't like it as well, that's very good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I wouldn't go so far as to put odds on anything, but I'm pretty\nsure that kind of argument pisses me off too. You can't prove negatives,\nso why argue for them? All that does is shoot down other people's\nsuggestions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly I misapplied the word 'odds'. Yes, I think you're right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can\nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just\nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the\nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't\ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that\ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a few comments which may or may not be counterarguments:\n\n(1) You and I have never seen a human clone. Therefore, we really have\nno idea of that plasticity or how much control one may have over it or\nhow we would react to it: Would you recognize your own cloned brother?\nMaybe you would think so at first and then dismiss it for many reasons.\n\n(2) Human faces are as different from other species as one could\nimagine. We have little facial fur and have evolved brains that focus to\nan amazing degree on facial recognition and distinction. We see\nresemblances easily, but also see differences: \"Hey, that guy looks like\nTom Hanks, except for the beard and the hair and the clothes....\"\n\n(3) Yet our memories are poor and we really only recognize well about 80\nface types. But most of the research on this came out since BNS if not BLS.\n\nMy point is that there is enough plasticity here for Wolfe to do\nwhatever he needs to do. It's a major plot problem for characters to\nrecognize one another when they can't be allowed to, as well as a great\ntactic to have characters suspect one another when they \"just can't\" be\nthat person. Wolfe does all of this and more with great deviousness and\nprecision. If there are strong signals that Silk is a clone of Typhon\nand strong signals that Silk doesn't look enough like him to be\nrecognized (even by himself!) in a whorl where Typhon is forgotten or\ndistorted, then that's the way it is. But this is not a \"just so\"\nstory---I hate those too.\n\nBoth are true, and if you want a biological explanation it lies in these\n3 points and the fact that genotype is not phenotype, and the cloning\ntechniques are unknown anyway. Certainly we know embryos are grown in\nvivo rather than in a vat, and that means \"maternal\" hormones will\ndirectly and possibly hugely affect phenotype." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no disagreemnt with any of the above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I prefer text-based arguments such as those I laid out in my post to\nDan'l: Pas has been dead 30 years, the windows are all dark, and Typhon\nis unknown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the sleepers don't meet Silk - except for Mamelta who is still \nconfused (if she had had more time, she would have had more time, but \nhey, there's a reason she didn't) - and the Duko who meets a very \nwizened Silk and didn't have all that much time.\n\n'Silk looks a lot like Typhon but Pas not so much and nobody knows Pas \nvery well anyway' is plausible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED42530.7070706@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED42437.8040401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 6:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to\nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X,\nit may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism. Perhaps\nyou mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be otherwise\".\nEverybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like a\nduck and quacks like a duck. If you want it *not* to be a duck, you'll\nhave to say why you think it isn't a duck. It may perfectly well not\nbe a duck. However, if you don't even care to say why you want it not\nto be a duck, please don't go around saying 'there's no reason to\nbelieve it is a duck'. Because, if it looks like a duck and quacks\nlike a duck, the odds are it is a duck. Presuming it to be a duck is\nagnostic. 'Agnostic' doesn't mean not taking a stance. It doesn't mean\nbumping into furniture because that thing that looks like a piece of\nfurniture may or may not be a piece of furniture. Where is literary\ncriticism different? If we're told enlightenment came to Patera Silk\nin the ball court, the odds are it was in the ball court. The odds are\nnot that it was in Maytera Mint's chambers. Nor are we to say that\nthere is no reason to think it was in the ball court." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a simple case, of course. Others are not so simple. I agree, for\nexample, that if we read \"X is a clone of Y\" then we can have a working\nhypothesis that maybe Y robbed the bank, not X who has been falsely\naccused. We have to consider that cloning may be read as identity.\n\nWhen we see signs that cloning might not produce identical twins---when\ncharacters have no trouble telling X and Y apart---we need to examine\nour assumptions. That's not the same as asserting that \"there is no\nreason to believe\" cloning = identity but I can see how they could be\nmistaken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can\nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is just\nnot the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the\nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't\ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that\ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Silk is a clone of Typhon, we are probably supposed to believe Silk\nlooked a lot like Typhon when he was young. However, there it is nowhere\nasserted that either head of Pas looks just like Typhon...unless someone\nis going to argue that the original Echidna had snakes in her hair and\nCilinia had squid arms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whether Pas looks like Typhon is a completely different question. Here\nI was addressing the issue of phenotypes/genotypes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean Pas's resemblance to Typhon is purely a matter of artistic,\ni.e., painterly, or for that matter political, license? If so, I agree,\nthough the two questions are hardly unrelated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so, yes, and yes, they're not unrelated." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED420FB.2020807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah thats interesting for sure. I agree with David though. Someone\ntried to grow a human being. The question is who that someone is.\nTyphon is a logical choice. By the way the Axolotl Tanks are revealed\nto be the bodies of Tleilaxu females so the vats are wombs. Sorry big\nDune fan so I had to chime in on that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 6:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the\nMandragora\nseems\nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or\ndownloaded\ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in\nthe\nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not\nto refer to\nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nOddly enough, a possible answer is at Wikipedia.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of the\nmandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a soil\nsufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said\nroot, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\" A\nWikipedia editor has added, \"(See: Homunculus).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From /Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual/ by ?liphas L?vi,\ntranslated by Arthur Edward Waite. The book is at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=e0GcOrh-xNAC&pg=PA323" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a little more on plant-animal hybridization in the full passage,\nand perhaps people will find other points of interest.\n\nSo this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root and humanized\nit, creating a homunculus.\n\nNo doubt there's much more to say about this, but this margin is too\nsmall.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awesome. My guess is that it indicates someone tried to grow a human in\na vat, as in Dune, vs surgically placing it in a womb, as done by Blood.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4276E.8040608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED41F91.1020906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to\nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X,\nit may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism. Perhaps\nyou mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be otherwise\".\nEverybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like a \nduck and quacks like a duck." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it is you own theory, it always quacks." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4293C.2010906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T00:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4276E.8040608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 5:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason\nto believe X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds\nare for X, it may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism.\nPerhaps you mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be\notherwise\". Everybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like\na duck and quacks like a duck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it is you own theory, it always quacks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this really is you talking, James, and the odds are it is, I'm \nbeginning to understand you a lot better." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED432C6.1050409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T01:17:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4293C.2010906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 7:37 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:56 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 11/28/2011 5:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason\nto believe X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds\nare for X, it may well be otherwise\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Unfortunately, there are no odds-makers in literary criticism.\nPerhaps you mean \"though THERE ARE REASONS for X, it may well be\notherwise\". Everybody thinks his theory is the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like\na duck and quacks like a duck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it is you own theory, it always quacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this really is you talking, James, and the odds are it is, I'm \nbeginning to understand you a lot better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quack!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED43375.4000206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T01:20:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, good. I'm actually a bit disappointed to hear that, because I always \nfound the combination of the word \"vat\" to be chilling in the context of \ngrowing cloned humans. I thought of dank, dark tubs.\n\nYes, Typhon would have tried that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 7:20 PM, Larry Miller wrote:\nYeah thats interesting for sure. I agree with David though. Someone\ntried to grow a human being. The question is who that someone is.\nTyphon is a logical choice. By the way the Axolotl Tanks are revealed\nto be the bodies of Tleilaxu females so the vats are wombs. Sorry big\nDune fan so I had to chime in on that.\n\nOn 11/28/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the\nMandragora\nseems\nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or\ndownloaded\ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in\nthe\nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not\nto refer to\nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...\n\nOddly enough, a possible answer is at Wikipedia.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of the\nmandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a soil\nsufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said\nroot, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\" A\nWikipedia editor has added, \"(See: Homunculus).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " From /Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual/ by ?liphas L?vi,\ntranslated by Arthur Edward Waite. The book is at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=e0GcOrh-xNAC&pg=PA323" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's a little more on plant-animal hybridization in the full passage,\nand perhaps people will find other points of interest.\n\nSo this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root and humanized\nit, creating a homunculus.\n\nNo doubt there's much more to say about this, but this margin is too\nsmall.\n\nJerry Friedman\nAwesome. My guess is that it indicates someone tried to grow a human in\na vat, as in Dune, vs surgically placing it in a womb, as done by Blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T02:06:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED43375.4000206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well the Tleilaxu females are lobotomized, hooked to machines, and\nmutate into massive piles of flesh large enough to birth a full size\nhuman clone (or Ghola as the are called in the Duniverse). Id say\nthats more chilling then a dark, dirty tub!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAh, good. I'm actually a bit disappointed to hear that, because I always\nfound the combination of the word \"vat\" to be chilling in the context of\ngrowing cloned humans. I thought of dank, dark tubs.\n\nYes, Typhon would have tried that.\n\nOn 11/28/2011 7:20 PM, Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah thats interesting for sure. I agree with David though. Someone\ntried to grow a human being. The question is who that someone is.\nTyphon is a logical choice. By the way the Axolotl Tanks are revealed\nto be the bodies of Tleilaxu females so the vats are wombs. Sorry big\nDune fan so I had to chime in on that.\n\nOn 11/28/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the\nMandragora\nseems\nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or\ndownloaded\ninto a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus\nin\nthe\nbottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not\nto refer to\nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "...\n\nOddly enough, a possible answer is at Wikipedia.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of\nthe\nmandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a soil\nsufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said\nroot, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\" A\nWikipedia editor has added, \"(See: Homunculus).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " From /Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual/ by ?liphas L?vi,\ntranslated by Arthur Edward Waite. The book is at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=e0GcOrh-xNAC&pg=PA323" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's a little more on plant-animal hybridization in the full passage,\nand perhaps people will find other points of interest.\n\nSo this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root and\nhumanized\nit, creating a homunculus.\n\nNo doubt there's much more to say about this, but this margin is too\nsmall.\n\nJerry Friedman\nAwesome. My guess is that it indicates someone tried to grow a human in\na vat, as in Dune, vs surgically placing it in a womb, as done by Blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED44706.5060503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T02:44:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, but in a very different way ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 9:06 PM, Larry Miller wrote:\nWell the Tleilaxu females are lobotomized, hooked to machines, and\nmutate into massive piles of flesh large enough to birth a full size\nhuman clone (or Ghola as the are called in the Duniverse). Id say\nthats more chilling then a dark, dirty tub!\n\nOn 11/28/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, good. I'm actually a bit disappointed to hear that, because I always\nfound the combination of the word \"vat\" to be chilling in the context of\ngrowing cloned humans. I thought of dank, dark tubs." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T03:01:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED44706.5060503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: >> So this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake root " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and humanized it, creating a homunculus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt might. But mandrake and mandragora are essentially the same word, \"drake\" being\n\nanother word for dragon.\n\n \n\nI guess it might be a difference in reading preference. Is a Wolfe book to be read\n\nas a random sequence of colorful episodes which have no connection to each other? I\n\ndon't see it that way.\n\n \n\nIf a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I \n\ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains who\n\ncreated that fetus and for what purpose. As larry says, mandrake and Mandragora both \n\npoint to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate the matter \n\nwith that, for now)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: The question is who that someone is.\nTyphon is a logical choice. By the way the Axolotl Tanks are revealed\nto be the bodies of Tleilaxu females so the vats are wombs. Sorry big\nDune fan so I had to chime in on that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dune fan here also. I am one of the few who likes the second trilogy better than the\n\nfirst (I consider Dune books 4, 5 and 6 to be more WOlfe-like, actually). Book 6 was a\n\nfantastic finale. (it should have ended there; I find the Frank Herbert-post-mortem Dune \n\nbooks to be unreadable even if his son wrote them. Same for Brian Herbert's attempt to \n\ncontinue the D.Void-Jesus Incident series.)\n\n \n\nAnyway, I also agree with larry. The revelation that the clinical Tleilaxu \"vats\" are\n\nreally gigantic, decapitated females is presented as a high point of horror in the \n\nseries. They not only produce facedancers and clones with these giant uteri, they also \n\nengineer them to produce volumes of melange spice by the ton-lot. Ugh. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322547833.19876.YahooMailNeo@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T06:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nJerry Friedman: >> So this may be saying that someone has taken a \nmandrake root and humanized it, creating a homunculus.\n\nIt might. But mandrake and mandragora are essentially the same word, \n\"drake\" being another word for dragon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's why I said the mandragora might be a mandrake root.\n\n\"Folk etymology associated the second element with /dragoun/ and substituted native /drake/ in its place.\"\n\nhttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mandrake&searchmode=none" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess it might be a difference in reading preference. Is a Wolfe book to be \nread as a random sequence of colorful episodes which have no connection to\neach? other? I don't see it that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody does. Not around here, anyway. Maybe you've misread me and others and think we see it that way, or maybe you know you're exaggerating to the point of considerable distortion, or something else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I \ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains \nwho created that fetus and for what purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation. That's a matter of taste.\n\nHowever, I am saying that because of the Levi quotation, or just because a fabulous mandrake root is something human-like but not really human, I don't think it's valid to say that the only possible reason for Wolfe to use the word was as a connection to Typhon. Indeed, I think it's quite possible that such a connection never entered his mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As larry says, mandrake and Mandragora \nboth point to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate \nthe matter with that, for now)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why don't they point to Ymar? The two Biblical references to mandrakes are in connection with Rachel and the maiden in the Song of Songs, both types of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology (or I can find at least one source that says that about each one). I don't think I need to make the last connection.\n\nOr why not the Sleeper? Shakespeare refers to mandragora as a soporific, including in a fairly famous passage from /Othello/.\n\nOr Severian in his first life or two? The most famous quotation about a mandrake starts \"Go and catch a falling star\", which immediately brings to mind the slingers' song, which Wolfe said illuminates--darkly--Severian's past and future.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=N-IemS8Uqn0C&pg=PA233\n\n(You might prefer to associate the falling star with Lucifer and thus with Satan, who Typhon echoes.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: The question is who that someone is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily. Maybe we're meant to leave it as a mystery and concentrate on the interaction between Severian and the homunculus.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4BF21.3040605@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-29T11:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4200A.6000905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it seems that the vision when Silk sees his own head instead of \none of Typhon's/Pas head\nhas to be interpreted \"spiritually\" - he feels the danger to become a \nmonster because he\nis (or is going to be) a leader of the people. Even the word \"charisma\" \nsounds a bit like\na name of a monster.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/28/2011 6:00 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I heartily agree (I think)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You may go on, but as far as I can tell our only disagreements are on \ntwo points (to sum up what I also wrote below):\n\n- You (as many others) often like to assert \"there's no reason to \nbelieve X\" when in fact it's merely that \"though the odds are for X, \nit may well be otherwise\". That seriously gets on my nerves. If you \ndon't see yourself in this picture, then maybe it's my wrong \nimpression. If you don't like it as well, that's very good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I wouldn't go so far as to put odds on anything, but I'm pretty \nsure that kind of argument pisses me off too. You can't prove \nnegatives, so why argue for them? All that does is shoot down other \npeople's suggestions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- You (as probably others) seem to believe phenotypic plasticity can \nlead to clones being very different from their originals. That is \njust not the case in what regards higher animals, the more since the \nenvironments aren't radically different, and specifically it won't \ngive you two persons with really different faces. Nor do I think that \ncould have been GW's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a few comments which may or may not be counterarguments:\n\n(1) You and I have never seen a human clone. Therefore, we really have \nno idea of that plasticity or how much control one may have over it or \nhow we would react to it: Would you recognize your own cloned brother? \nMaybe you would think so at first and then dismiss it for many reasons.\n\n(2) Human faces are as different from other species as one could \nimagine. We have little facial fur and have evolved brains that focus \nto an amazing degree on facial recognition and distinction. We see \nresemblances easily, but also see differences: \"Hey, that guy looks \nlike Tom Hanks, except for the beard and the hair and the clothes....\"\n\n(3) Yet our memories are poor and we really only recognize well about \n80 face types. But most of the research on this came out since BNS if \nnot BLS.\n\nMy point is that there is enough plasticity here for Wolfe to do \nwhatever he needs to do. It's a major plot problem for characters to \nrecognize one another when they can't be allowed to, as well as a \ngreat tactic to have characters suspect one another when they \"just \ncan't\" be that person. Wolfe does all of this and more with great \ndeviousness and precision. If there are strong signals that Silk is a \nclone of Typhon and strong signals that Silk doesn't look enough like \nhim to be recognized (even by himself!) in a whorl where Typhon is \nforgotten or distorted, then that's the way it is. But this is not a \n\"just so\" story---I hate those too.\n\nBoth are true, and if you want a biological explanation it lies in \nthese 3 points and the fact that genotype is not phenotype, and the \ncloning techniques are unknown anyway. Certainly we know embryos are \ngrown in vivo rather than in a vat, and that means \"maternal\" hormones \nwill directly and possibly hugely affect phenotype.\n\nI prefer text-based arguments such as those I laid out in my post to \nDan'l: Pas has been dead 30 years, the windows are all dark, and \nTyphon is unknown.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T11:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny that you bring up the D. Void books as I always saw quite a bit\nof them in Long/Short Sun. The second Dune trilogy is by far better\nthan the first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: >> So this may be saying that someone has taken a mandrake\nroot" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and humanized it, creating a homunculus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It might. But mandrake and mandragora are essentially the same word, \"drake\"\nbeing\n\nanother word for dragon.\n\n\n\nI guess it might be a difference in reading preference. Is a Wolfe book to\nbe read\n\nas a random sequence of colorful episodes which have no connection to each\nother? I\n\ndon't see it that way.\n\n\n\nIf a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent\nreason, I\n\ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains\nwho\n\ncreated that fetus and for what purpose. As larry says, mandrake and\nMandragora both\n\npoint to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate\nthe matter\n\nwith that, for now)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: The question is who that someone is.\nTyphon is a logical choice. By the way the Axolotl Tanks are revealed\nto be the bodies of Tleilaxu females so the vats are wombs. Sorry big\nDune fan so I had to chime in on that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dune fan here also. I am one of the few who likes the second trilogy better\nthan the\n\nfirst (I consider Dune books 4, 5 and 6 to be more WOlfe-like, actually).\nBook 6 was a\n\nfantastic finale. (it should have ended there; I find the Frank\nHerbert-post-mortem Dune\n\nbooks to be unreadable even if his son wrote them. Same for Brian Herbert's\nattempt to\n\ncontinue the D.Void-Jesus Incident series.)\n\n\n\nAnyway, I also agree with larry. The revelation that the clinical Tleilaxu\n\"vats\" are\n\nreally gigantic, decapitated females is presented as a high point of horror\nin the\n\nseries. They not only produce facedancers and clones with these giant uteri,\nthey also\n\nengineer them to produce volumes of melange spice by the ton-lot. Ugh. \t\t \t\n \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<22ADFAE72ECA44F79005CB309B469900@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T13:36:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora seems \nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded into a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the bottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not to refer to \nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mandragora is a quite standard name for such homunculi. In fact, it’s the *only* meaning given by Wikipedia:\n\n?In myth, mandragoras are familiar demons who appear in the figures of little men without beards.\nMandragoras are thought to be little dolls or figures given to sorcerers by the Devil for the purpose of being consulted by them in time of need;\n\nHow can you talk of “undisputable proof?” All you have is an inconsequential pun. Nothing whatsoever connects the mandragora to Typhon. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian is shocked beyond belief that Typhon would choose to have his own head chopped\noff as most of us would be. But Typhon just laughs it off casually demonstrating a lack\nof human body self-identification and preservation that we all share. Moreover Typhon\nsays he was not born, in the way Severian understands it. The evidence seems pretty \nclear that the blond-haired body in which Typhon resides is not his original self." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What blond-haired body? Typhon resides in Piaton’s body. And indeed, it is not his original self. Nor was his current self born, in the way Severian would understand it.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8BA96039D4DE4D4ABAE9AF242D2A1283@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T13:46:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3C677.2010707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, their memories have been tinkered with. If a Cargo would not \nhave had a moment of striking recognition at Silk's appearance, I don't \nthink a Sleeper would do any better. The Sleepers don't even call him \nTyphon. They call him Pas like everyone else. Although he remembers that \nthe gods walked among them on Urth, he also still considers them gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mamelta calls him the Monarch. As for the rest, the Sleepers have to get along with the other people of Blue.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0EEE917411884B89951606DCC78F3F34@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T13:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED43375.4000206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, good. I'm actually a bit disappointed to hear that, because I always \nfound the combination of the word \"vat\" to be chilling in the context of \ngrowing cloned humans. I thought of dank, dark tubs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vance usually uses it when his wizards grow humanoid agents (though they are rarely clones exactly).\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T13:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Am I the only one that thinks that the mandragora and the Prime\nCalcula are one and the same? I know some believe it is a reference\nto the Mainframe AI but is there any mention of a prime Calculator\nanywhere? And why would Echidna mention this when asked about Pas\npossessing bodies? And theres mention of the Citadel in the same\nsentence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question Silk asked was about how Pas died — that’s why he asked if Pas possessed someone who died. Echidna answered the implied question, but she was losing control of Marble and her words were fragmented. She is referring to Pas’s last defence in Mainframe. The Prime Calculator, or Prime Calculation Unit, or whatever, was Pas’s citadel. [Possibly it was damaged in the struggle, but that’s speculation.]\nShe looks towards the Sacred window as she says it. I think that’s an indication of looking towards Mainframe, though I suppose I would interpret it the same way if she looked east.\nFor me, “prime calculator” is the obvious interpretation — “calcula” isn’t even a word, really. And a reference to the Citadel of Nessus makes no sense that I can see.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4E975.4030303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T14:17:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322547833.19876.YahooMailNeo@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:23 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman\nIf a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I\ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains\nwho created that fetus and for what purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation. That's a matter of taste.\n\nHowever, I am saying that because of the Levi quotation, or just because a fabulous mandrake root is something human-like but not really human, I don't think it's valid to say that the only possible reason for Wolfe to use the word was as a connection to Typhon. Indeed, I think it's quite possible that such a connection never entered his mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, what's the Levi quotation?\n\nIt's quite possible, except that the whole cloning/in \nvivo/possession/scanning trope was plainly already in Wolfe's mind, and \nas such maybe the LS/SS arcs as well. Typhon is a major connection \nbetween Severian in the Citadel and the embryonic Silk in the Whorl. So \nit stands to reason that Typhon created it as a failed experiment on the \nway to devising his colonization strategies, but it's not a critical \nplot point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As larry says, mandrake and Mandragora\nboth point to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate\nthe matter with that, for now)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nWhy don't they point to Ymar? The two Biblical references to mandrakes are in connection with Rachel and the maiden in the Song of Songs, both types of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology (or I can find at least one source that says that about each one). I don't think I need to make the last connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, please do. I don't follow this or know the references at all. \nWhy Ymar? (I did just find the Rachel ones but don;t know how to \ninterpret them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or why not the Sleeper? Shakespeare refers to mandragora as a soporific, including in a fairly famous passage from /Othello/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meaning \"the sleepers\" on the Whorl? Or another sleeper?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or Severian in his first life or two? The most famous quotation about a mandrake starts \"Go and catch a falling star\", which immediately brings to mind the slingers' song, which Wolfe said illuminates--darkly--Severian's past and future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This quotation?:\n\n\"Go, and catch a falling star, / Get with child a *mandrake* root, / \nTell me, where all past years are, / Or who cleft the Devil's foot. \n\" \n\n\nJohn Donne quotes (English \n poet, 1572 \n-1631 \n)\n\nThat is indeed striking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://books.google.com/books?id=N-IemS8Uqn0C&pg=PA233\n\n(You might prefer to associate the falling star with Lucifer and thus with Satan, who Typhon echoes.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: The question is who that someone is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not necessarily. Maybe we're meant to leave it as a mystery and concentrate on the interaction between Severian and the homunculus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. But the Donne quote, if it is a key link, does lead to the \nimage of impregnating a mandrake root, which takes us back to who and \nwhy, and what resulted from it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7502E988795B4166BA3E03200F3647F0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T14:20:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Their minds weren’t wiped — we know that quite clearly from Mamelta \nand Rigoglio, who remember much of their time on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would keep in mind that Mamelta was awakened improperly and there was no chance\nfor what might have been the mind wiping process. Rigoglio seems to be a special \ncase, for some reason (authorily to provide the reader with needed information)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are the two Sleepers that we talk to (unless there are more in IGJ and RttW that I haven’t got to on my re-read) and so must be taken as representative. Mamelta indicates that she has had a brain operation, presumably long enough before the Whorl was launched to allow recuperation. No special additional procedures seem to be available or required. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, there was mind erasure going on as is made clear in Tartaros' conversation\nwith Auk. You shouldn't assume it was complete mind erasure. The conversation\nreflects a selective erasure with regard to the gods and their worship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. [Although it’s not certain that the procedure was exactly the same for the First Settlers and the Sleepers, and it seems to have been different again for the Crew, if indeed their memories were tampered with at all — they see the Whorl gods as “aspects of Mainframe”.] In any case, it’s quite clear that any memory erasure among the Sleepers was very incomplete." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the painting, it might well have been an realistic psychological portrait, \nbut presumably Piaton had but one penis.....Campion’s painting was probably created \nat the time the Whorl was being fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), \nand in the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our current society, \nwould have needed some time to become famous. The obscene parody, then, was presumably \ncreated much later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The evidence suggests you have it backwards. The bulldozers are a direct reference to the \nautonomous machines (\"wains\", iirc) which were used to carve the mountains into Typhon's\nlikeness. The orgy is a direct reference to Typhon's demand of Severian, as his regent, to\nprovide him tribute of young women and boys. The nursing of erections also a direct\nreference to Severian's experience with Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of that can sustain even cursory scrutiny. A “wain” is just a large cart, but that’s beside the point. The description refers to two of Pas’s bulldozers which “were still at work upon the whorl”. They were planting a tree behind his throne. If the mountain head were above a throne, a tree behind it would be kind of invisible, no? It has absolutely nothing to do with the mountain head.\n\nThe orgy is on a drape Blood has ordered or acquired to cover the Sacred window in his brothel. It is an obscene parody of Campion’s well-known original painting. Typhon did not have two penises, or if he had Severian did not mention it. The two penises in the orgy painting are clearly created by a painter steeped in the two-headed iconography of Pas the whorl god — it was painted by someone in the Whorl, and could not have been painted before Typhon became Pas. [Campion may or may not have departed with the Whorl.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus the perverted, blasphemous painting, accurately depicting reality on Urth is the\nolder and more original painting. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That kind of summarises your entire approach to Wolfe. And, as I’ve shown above, it doesn’t work as an interpretation.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F3FDCC252A44B069A6EEBE7D6A9D607@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3ABE8.8060807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris) \nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads. The Typhon-Piaton origin is no longer relevant, and would be meaningless to Silk, for whom the image is created. Like the Sign of Addition, it is interpreted differently in Silk’s time.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:23:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3DFF2.8050208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from \nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not having \nan obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less likely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and me?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their originals, \nthat would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do you base your \nassumption?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don’t we all? Identical twins are clones.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<22130A65E5DD49F3833629D317498F5F@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:27:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3FE34.4090109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 3:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, yes, I did mean that Pas was to d/l into Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is said so often.\nBut if Typhon wanted Pas to possess Silk as the ruler of Blue, why \ndidn't he do possess Silk at the Mainframe or immediately after?\nOr, for that matter, any time in the years after Pas was resurrected?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That isn’t too hard to explain. He might have lost a lot of data when he died and resurrected. He would then have needed more of Silk than he had planned to use.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4F9EE.5020200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4F3FDCC252A44B069A6EEBE7D6A9D607@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 10:18 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nAny ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?\nI don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads. \nThe Typhon-Piaton origin is no longer relevant, and would be \nmeaningless to Silk, for whom the image is created. Like the Sign of \nAddition, it is interpreted differently in Silk’s time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether it has meaning to Silk or not is probably irrelevant because he \nhas seen little more of Pas than anyone else his age, but I agree that \neven for readers of BNS looking for clues in BLS, the precise historical \nrelationship between the heads may be set aside in the absence of any \nindications of which head Silk replaced. Pas is after all no longer a \nrider of a single human body.\n\nBut that still leaves us to interpret the vision. *If* one head is more \nPas than the other (and it may be that neither head is in Pas' \niconography), the choice of heads may indicate whether Silk is to be \nsenior or junior head, with whatever implications may follow. As you \nsuggest, Wolfe's vagueness on this point may simply mean it is null." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4FA3D.7070502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:29:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 10:23 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/28/2011 1:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where does any assumption ever come from? If Pas was created from\nTyphon, any difference between them would need a rationale. Not \nhaving\nan obvious one, it isn't impossible, but it's the less likely option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, don't you know what asserting assumptions makes out of you and me?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you frequently run into clones who look exactly like their \noriginals,\nthat would be a good answer. If you don't, then on what do you base \nyour\nassumption?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don’t we all? Identical twins are clones.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED4FACB.3010104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:31:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4F3FDCC252A44B069A6EEBE7D6A9D607@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (29-11-2011 15:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n > Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)\n >\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?\nI don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does it say that? Pas on the Sacred Window after Sand's sacrifice has \na radiant head and a stupefied one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nTyphon-Piaton origin is no longer relevant, and would be meaningless to\nSilk, for whom the image is created. Like the Sign of Addition, it is\ninterpreted differently in Silk’s time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50482.8030804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:12:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4293C.2010906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:37 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nThis isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like\na duck and quacks like a duck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it is you own theory, it always quacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this really is you talking, James, and the odds are it is, I'm \nbeginning to understand you a lot better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a logical error that people fall into. They argue from authority \nbased on what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". \nThis liberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \n\"most likely true\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the \ndefault position. MY description of events (whoever the pronoun refers \nto) is always the one that is obviously true because it is so obviously \ntrue to me. Maybe it is obviously true because I read irony into the \nevent or because I rigorously choose not to in this case. Maybe I am \nremembering a /single/ statement by someone that provoked me when I read \nit or maybe I see the author following a genre of literature or \nhistorical philosophy that I happen to be very familiar with.\n\nI can handle kooky theories. I can ignore them or explore them until I \nhave built a case (in my own mind) that the obstacles against the theory \nare just to great (until more and contravening information is \navailable). What I'm really annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want \nto take the opposite position just to see how it plays out. I think the \nsmug aren't really thinking because they have afforded themselves the \nright not to." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5064C.8000004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:20:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50482.8030804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 16:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 6:37 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This isn't about theories. This is about when something looks like\na duck and quacks like a duck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If it is you own theory, it always quacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If this really is you talking, James, and the odds are it is, I'm\nbeginning to understand you a lot better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a logical error that people fall into. They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \"most likely\ntrue\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default position. MY\ndescription of events (whoever the pronoun refers to) is always the one that\nis obviously true because it is so obviously true to me. Maybe it is\nobviously true because I read irony into the event or because I rigorously\nchoose not to in this case. Maybe I am remembering a /single/ statement by\nsomeone that provoked me when I read it or maybe I see the author following\na genre of literature or historical philosophy that I happen to be very\nfamiliar with.\n\nI can handle kooky theories. I can ignore them or explore them until I have\nbuilt a case (in my own mind) that the obstacles against the theory are just\nto great (until more and contravening information is available). What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:26:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFor me, “prime calculator” is the obvious interpretation — “calcula” isn’t\neven a word, really." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it's the plural of \"calculus,\" meaning \"little stone.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, not the plural: the feminine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 8:26 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me, “prime calculator” is the obvious interpretation — “calcula” isn’t\neven a word, really." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it's the plural of \"calculus,\" meaning \"little stone.\"\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9703997C67C7441B8FF4AC1430FDFDEF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4FACB.3010104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (29-11-2011 15:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n > Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)\n >\nreplaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?\nI don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does it say that? Pas on the Sacred Window after Sand's sacrifice has \na radiant head and a stupefied one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You’re right — I never noticed that. \nAt the same time, I never noticed the heads being different elsewhere. Perhaps Pas had to restore from an early save.\nI guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still think that his intended position will not be the equivalent of Piaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50A58.7080100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED5064C.8000004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is a logical error that people fall into." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the text says so. But --guess what?-- that's NOT the only \ntheory. Marc has posited that the whole event and Silk's communication \nwith the Outsider was engineered by Pas and Kypris. I can bring up \ntechnical refutations (\"Pas is dead.\") but I fully know that I would \nlike the story less if the enlightenment were a ruse. That's also the \nprimary reason I don't believe Lee's \"Grand Unified Theory\" of \naliens=gods or that the ultimate goals of the Hierodules is evil. \nNietzsche said that the mind is the slave of the body. Well, often \nintricately conceived refutations are actually diplomats for our \n/preferences/. And that potential is always lurking in each of our \ndiscourses on both sides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \"most \nlikely\ntrue\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default position.\n\n[...]What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I just described it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50C1A.2060103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50A58.7080100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 16:37):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is a logical error that people fall into." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the text says so and everyone can go look and everyone is supposed to \nhave read it once, isn't it a bit tiresome to have to repeat at each turn \nwhat the text says?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But --guess what?-- that's NOT the only theory.\nMarc has posited that the whole event and Silk's communication with the\nOutsider was engineered by Pas and Kypris. I can bring up technical\nrefutations (\"Pas is dead.\") but I fully know that I would like the story\nless if the enlightenment were a ruse. That's also the primary reason I\ndon't believe Lee's \"Grand Unified Theory\" of aliens=gods or that the\nultimate goals of the Hierodules is evil. Nietzsche said that the mind is\nthe slave of the body. Well, often intricately conceived refutations are\nactually diplomats for our /preferences/. And that potential is always\nlurking in each of our discourses on both sides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If everything everyone does has unspeakable motivations, why point out that \nthis or that action have unspeakable motivations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \"most likely\ntrue\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default position.\n\n[...]What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I just described it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If so, one could argue that smugness is in the eye of the beholder." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50C92.9010505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:47:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<9703997C67C7441B8FF4AC1430FDFDEF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nGerry Quinn wrote (29-11-2011 15:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nAny ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by \nKhypris)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?\nI don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does it say that? Pas on the Sacred Window after Sand's \nsacrifice has\na radiant head and a stupefied one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You’re right — I never noticed that.\nAt the same time, I never noticed the heads being different elsewhere. \nPerhaps Pas had to restore from an early save.\nI guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still \nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of \nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess that? WHY?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50C1A.2060103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50F7E.3060400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:59:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (29-11-2011 16:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\n\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\n\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are the \nproduct of someone's imagination." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50F85.2080906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T16:59:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:55 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. However, Silk also narrates it as the Rajan, and it comes up a \nlot in BLS. So we may presume that he told Horn and Nettle.\n\nIf he did not, then the end of OBW does not signify that Silk is back, \nbecause then that must be Horn narrating and making things up.\n\nAaagh! Infinite improbability loop!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED511B6.5080009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:09:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50F85.2080906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 16:59):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:55 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly. However, Silk also narrates it as the Rajan, and it comes up a lot\nin BLS. So we may presume that he told Horn and Nettle.\n\nIf he did not, then the end of OBW does not signify that Silk is back,\nbecause then that must be Horn narrating and making things up.\n\nAaagh! Infinite improbability loop!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now for something completely different (really). Who is (are?) the Silk in \nthe Rajan?\n\n- Has the original Silk been lost?\n\n- No Silk we meet seems to know anything about the 20 years of Silk's life \nafter Horn left the Whorl.\n\n- At the end of RW we simultaneously learn how 'a' Silk may or may have not \nbeen hiding in Pig, and how 'Silk' accepts he is Silk in New Viron. However, \nthe two episodes have no connection between them. The 'Silk in denial' we \nmeet, except for the bit aboard the Whorl, is all after the appearance of \nthe Silk in Pig. Which Silk is the one in Pig? Does he or does he not get \ninto the [then yet to be] Rajan?\n\n- The [then yet to be] Rajan aboard the Whorl before that episode doesn't \nseem to behave any less like Silk than he does afterwards." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED511BF.8050105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:09:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50C1A.2060103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the text says so and everyone can go look and everyone is supposed \nto have read it once, isn't it a bit tiresome to have to repeat at \neach turn what the text says?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, ironically, I thought I answered that question in the text \nthat followed. But I'll approach it in more detail.\nAnswer: Because this is literature, and words can have more than one \nmeaning. And because events carefully described can have different \nsignificance based on interpretation (thus we have Detective novels). \nAnd because, that's the field when you are discussing Wolfe.\nBut (here's the beauty) you are /not/ required to engage anyone for whom \nyou believe conversation is pointless. Embrace your freedom. But if you \nengage, it is always pointless if you approach it with the presumption \nthat it is someone else's job to prove you wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If everything everyone does has unspeakable motivations,\nwhy point out that this or that action have unspeakable motivations?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's like saying that because we are all sinners, discussion of good \nbehavior is pointless. It's like saying that anyone who condemns \nbehavior is \"self-righteous\", anyone who earns a decent salary is \"greedy\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \n\"most likely\ntrue\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default \nposition.\n\n[...]What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I just described it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, one could argue that smugness is in the eye of the beholder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course you can argue that. Most of us hail from free countries.\nBut being smug doesn't require that you are wrong. It only means that \nyou are not applying to your own theories the rigor to which you are \nwith great adamance disputing others. It is a hypocrisy in which the \nhypocrite has satisfied himself that his hypocrisy is \"authentic\". It's \nlike a tyrant who believes everything he does is just because God put \nhim there. The \"smug\" has constructed a palace of mirrors that all show \n/only/ himself and always in the perfect light." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:11:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50F7E.3060400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (29-11-2011 16:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\n\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\n\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are the\nproduct of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, obviously they're the product of Wolfe's imagination; the\nquestion is to what extent, within the posited reality of Wolfe's\nimagination, we may rely upon what they say about Silk's\nenlightenment. I _want_ the enlightenment to be real, because it makes\nthe story much better (for me). But we have to keep in mind that we\nare talking about an account written by a couple of Silk fanboyz\n(well, a fanboy and a fangirl), based on hearsay, several years after\nthe events in question." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51266.7070507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50F7E.3060400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball \ncourt?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories \nare the product of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle \nwrite the story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50C92.9010505@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques mailto:entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where does it say that? Pas on the Sacred Window after Sand's \nsacrifice has\na radiant head and a stupefied one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You’re right — I never noticed that.\nAt the same time, I never noticed the heads being different elsewhere. \nPerhaps Pas had to restore from an early save.\nI guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still \nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of \nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess that? WHY?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head gasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in RttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than Piaton’s role in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution of our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:18:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, not the plural: the feminine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That Echidna is one stoned lady!\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51405.6020101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:19:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED511B6.5080009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:09 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNow for something completely different (really). Who is (are?) the \nSilk in the Rajan?\n\n- Has the original Silk been lost?\n- No Silk we meet seems to know anything about the 20 years of Silk's \nlife after Horn left the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously, I believe that Wolfe has created a narrator for these stories \nwho, while writing in first-person, is analogous to Horn and Nettle \nwriting about Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- At the end of RW we simultaneously learn how 'a' Silk may or may \nhave not been hiding in Pig, and how 'Silk' accepts he is Silk in New \nViron. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not my interpretation of the final events at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the two episodes have no connection between them. The 'Silk \nin denial' we meet, except for the bit aboard the Whorl, is all after \nthe appearance of the Silk in Pig. Which Silk is the one in Pig? Does \nhe or does he not get into the [then yet to be] Rajan?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is an interesting question as to whether Silver Silk has possessed \nthe Rajan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51763.6000602@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:33:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think plural is \"calculi\".\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me, “prime calculator” is the obvious interpretation — “calcula” isn’t\neven a word, really.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it's the plural of \"calculus,\" meaning \"little stone.\"\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51769.7080001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:33:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED511BF.8050105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the text says so and everyone can go look and everyone is supposed to\nhave read it once, isn't it a bit tiresome to have to repeat at each turn\nwhat the text says?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, ironically, I thought I answered that question in the text that\nfollowed. But I'll approach it in more detail.\nAnswer: Because this is literature, and words can have more than one\nmeaning. And because events carefully described can have different\nsignificance based on interpretation (thus we have Detective novels). And\nbecause, that's the field when you are discussing Wolfe.\nBut (here's the beauty) you are /not/ required to engage anyone for whom you\nbelieve conversation is pointless. Embrace your freedom. But if you engage,\nit is always pointless if you approach it with the presumption that it is\nsomeone else's job to prove you wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions from, it's \na rhetoric/flippant question?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If everything everyone does has unspeakable motivations,\nwhy point out that this or that action have unspeakable motivations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's like saying that because we are all sinners, discussion of good\nbehavior is pointless. It's like saying that anyone who condemns behavior is\n\"self-righteous\", anyone who earns a decent salary is \"greedy\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, that's exactly where your procedure takes us: 'anyone who takes a \npart of a literary work a priori at face value is \"theorising\"'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \"most\nlikely\ntrue\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default position.\n\n[...]What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think I just described it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If so, one could argue that smugness is in the eye of the beholder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course you can argue that. Most of us hail from free countries.\nBut being smug doesn't require that you are wrong. It only means that you\nare not applying to your own theories the rigor to which you are with great\nadamance disputing others. It is a hypocrisy in which the hypocrite has\nsatisfied himself that his hypocrisy is \"authentic\". It's like a tyrant who\nbelieves everything he does is just because God put him there. The \"smug\"\nhas constructed a palace of mirrors that all show /only/ himself and always\nin the perfect light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whereas others are convinced that their opinions are wrong, correct?\n\nOr - how do you say it? - 'if it's not my theory, they're not applying to it \nthe rigor which they are with great adamance disputing me'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED517DE.9000901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:35:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51266.7070507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are\nthe product of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle write\nthe story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on? There's no real \nreason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's slave." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5181C.7080401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (29-11-2011 16:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\n\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\n\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are the\nproduct of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, obviously they're the product of Wolfe's imagination; the\nquestion is to what extent, within the posited reality of Wolfe's\nimagination, we may rely upon what they say about Silk's\nenlightenment. I _want_ the enlightenment to be real, because it makes\nthe story much better (for me). But we have to keep in mind that we\nare talking about an account written by a couple of Silk fanboyz\n(well, a fanboy and a fangirl), based on hearsay, several years after\nthe events in question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this is after all how saints are made." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51863.6030701@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:37:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50A58.7080100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like very much this formulation - and agree that it is often my reason \nde disagree\nwith certain theories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I fully know that I would like the story less if" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is a logical error that people fall into." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because the text says so. But --guess what?-- that's NOT the only \ntheory. Marc has posited that the whole event and Silk's communication \nwith the Outsider was engineered by Pas and Kypris. I can bring up \ntechnical refutations (\"Pas is dead.\") but I fully know that I would \nlike the story less if the enlightenment were a ruse. That's also the \nprimary reason I don't believe Lee's \"Grand Unified Theory\" of \naliens=gods or that the ultimate goals of the Hierodules is evil. \nNietzsche said that the mind is the slave of the body. Well, often \nintricately conceived refutations are actually diplomats for our \n/preferences/. And that potential is always lurking in each of our \ndiscourses on both sides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They argue from authority based\non what they consider is \"most likely true\" or \"the consensus\". This\nliberates them from having to explain WHY what they believe is \"most \nlikely\ntrue\". They have generously yielded to THEMSELVES the default \nposition.\n\n[...]What I'm\nreally annoyed by is /smugness/. It makes me want to take the opposite\nposition just to see how it plays out. I think the smug aren't really\nthinking because they have afforded themselves the right not to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And what in your view constitutes smugness?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I just described it.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51891.2050202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:38:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques mailto:entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don’t think it matters — Two-Headed Pas as icon has two equal \nheads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Where does it say that? Pas on the Sacred Window after Sand's\nsacrifice has\na radiant head and a stupefied one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You’re right — I never noticed that.\nAt the same time, I never noticed the heads being different \nelsewhere.\nPerhaps Pas had to restore from an early save.\nI guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess that? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head \ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in \nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than Piaton’s \nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution \nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED518EA.2080305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:39:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51769.7080001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nSo you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions \nfrom, it's a rhetoric/flippant question? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It certainly isn;t when _I_ ask it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51915.6040706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED517DE.9000901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball \ncourt?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are\nthe product of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle \nwrite\nthe story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on? There's \nno real reason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's slave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't you now doing what you just told us you can't stand?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED519BC.3040107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:43:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED518EA.2080305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:39):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions from,\nit's a rhetoric/flippant question?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It certainly isn;t when _I_ ask it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's good to know. Sometimes a written medium doesn't carry that information \nvery well.\n\nBut I was talking here to James." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51A5B.6060104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:46:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51915.6040706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the ball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those stories are\nthe product of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle write\nthe story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on? There's no\nreal reason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's slave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't you now doing what you just told us you can't stand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely, so that those who don't understand why I can't stand it may get \nan idea.\n\nThe problem with it is not so much the isolated instance. It's that it can \ngo on forever, and the perspective of it going on forever is disheartening." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51CE8.5070404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED519BC.3040107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:43 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:39):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions from,\nit's a rhetoric/flippant question?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It certainly isn;t when _I_ ask it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's good to know. Sometimes a written medium doesn't carry that \ninformation very well.\n\nBut I was talking here to James." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose I hoped to point out that it need not be rhetorical or \nflippant (and those are not synonyms) no matter who asks. But OK." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51CFB.7010209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51769.7080001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:33 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nSo you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions \nfrom, it's a rhetoric/flippant question?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have admitted nothing of the sort. If I am going to discuss a theory, \nI approach it from the position, \"What if it were true? What would I \nexpect?\". I have never said to anyone, for an example, \"This is /your/ \ntheory. YOU come up with something that I will accept.\" I've been told \nthat here in various ways by some people. I've seen people say it to \nothers. That's expecting other people to prove you wrong. That's smug. \nThat's a jerk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If everything everyone does has unspeakable motivations,\nwhy point out that this or that action have unspeakable motivations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's like saying that because we are all sinners, discussion of good\nbehavior is pointless. It's like saying that anyone who condemns \nbehavior is\n\"self-righteous\", anyone who earns a decent salary is \"greedy\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, that's exactly where your procedure takes us: 'anyone who \ntakes a part of a literary work a priori at face value is \"theorising\"'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. That' is not where I am taking you. However, the second part is \ntrue. I am asserting that people who are reading literature are \ntheorizing. They are interpreting from the text the intentions of an \nauthor whom they have never met or barely know. I am demolishing the \nbelief (which would be a desirable belief for anyone) that one's own \ninterpretations need no justification...it just \"is\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But being smug doesn't require that you are wrong. It only means that \nyou\nare not applying to your own theories the rigor to which you are with \ngreat\nadamance disputing others. It is a hypocrisy in which the hypocrite has\nsatisfied himself that his hypocrisy is \"authentic\". It's like a \ntyrant who\nbelieves everything he does is just because God put him there. The \n\"smug\"\nhas constructed a palace of mirrors that all show /only/ himself and \nalways\nin the perfect light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whereas others are convinced that their opinions are wrong, correct?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Wow, Antonio, everything with you is either on Everest or at the \nbottom of the Pacific. Do you really read Wolfe's stories with such an \nuncomfortable grasp on the idea of ambiguity? I'll say it again. If you \nengage with someone about ambiguous literary novels like Wolfe's, and \nyou approach every question with the attitude, \"Let's see if your weird \nnew theory can prove me wrong.\" then you are smug. And you are wasting \nthe other person's time. Done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or - how do you say it? - 'if it's not my theory, they're not applying \nto it the rigor which they are with great adamance disputing me'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that's what you've got out of our conversation then it is beyond my \nabilities to clarify it better." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51D4C.3000206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51A5B.6060104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:46 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Why do you believe enlightenment came to Patera Silk in the \nball court?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Because the text says so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich means that Horn and Nettle say so. To what extent may we rely\nupon their interpretation of this event?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their assertion that they wrote LS?\nAnd to what extent may we rely on their actual existence?\nCome to think of it, it may well be the case that all those \nstories are\nthe product of someone's imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and \nNettle write\nthe story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on? There's no\nreal reason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's slave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aren't you now doing what you just told us you can't stand?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely, so that those who don't understand why I can't stand it may \nget an idea.\n\nThe problem with it is not so much the isolated instance. It's that it \ncan go on forever, and the perspective of it going on forever is \ndisheartening." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm glad that's clear. I'll assume you're thinking of Gerry...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51D5C.70603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T17:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED517DE.9000901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle \nwrite\nthe story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhat do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on? There's \nno real reason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's slave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an artless dodge, Antonio. I'll expect an answer to my question \nfirst." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED51E51.4060809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51CFB.7010209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:57 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIf I am going to discuss a theory, I approach it from the position, \n\"What if it were true? What would I expect?\". I have never said to \nanyone, for an example, \"This is /your/ theory. YOU come up with \nsomething that I will accept.\" I've been told that here in various \nways by some people. I've seen people say it to others. That's \nexpecting other people to prove you wrong. That's smug. That's a jerk. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\n\nOn the other hand, I do expect commenters who *assert* that I'm wrong to \n*prove* me wrong. Sometimes they do in short order.\n\nSometimes they don't and won't, and it takes forever to find that out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52238449A5584646A5846310971BFA77@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:04:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51891.2050202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess that? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head \ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in \nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than Piaton’s \nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution \nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is intended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see in what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument you think you are.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52134.4040308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:15:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<52238449A5584646A5846310971BFA77@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess \nthat? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head\ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in\nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than \nPiaton’s\nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution\nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is \nintended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see \nin what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument you \nthink you are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I cannot guess where you get the idea that I think I'm victorious, \nor why you think \"victory\" is the central point.\n\nMuch of the difficulty in talking to you is on full display here. You \ncome up with half-processed semi-random stuff out of nowhere and relate \nit to nothing, with no stated assumptions and no attempt at conclusions. \nYou don't bother to follow a logical flow of /if/ and /then/. You don't \ndefine your terms. And then you get personal.\n\nYour answers are worse than meaningless because it takes a week to \nextract from you what you meant in the first place, if you meant \nanything. It is wearying. You never just answer a question about your \nown thoughts with a straight answer. Are you trying to be the Wizard of \nOz or the little man behind the curtain?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52922.5040503@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:49:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51E51.4060809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that there are still some \"minimum requirements\" to the people \nwho advance\nan extravagant new theory -\n\n- if they claim that the theory is supported by the text, it would be \nfair to do the\nwork finding necessary quotations, and honestly present the context (not \nto make\nthe opponent to browse the whole book to find out that the next sentence \nto the\nsentence just quoted is disproving the theory)\n\n- to be polite, and not to present disagreement as stupidity\n\n- not to try to intimidate the opponents presenting their hypotheses\nas common knowledge and consensus\n\nRegards\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/29/2011 12:57 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I am going to discuss a theory, I approach it from the position, \n\"What if it were true? What would I expect?\". I have never said to \nanyone, for an example, \"This is /your/ theory. YOU come up with \nsomething that I will accept.\" I've been told that here in various \nways by some people. I've seen people say it to others. That's \nexpecting other people to prove you wrong. That's smug. That's a jerk. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly.\n\nOn the other hand, I do expect commenters who *assert* that I'm wrong \nto *prove* me wrong. Sometimes they do in short order.\n\nSometimes they don't and won't, and it takes forever to find that out.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<418E183434594C1695DC97FD5E81DB00@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:49:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52134.4040308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess \nthat? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head\ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in\nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than \nPiaton’s\nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution\nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is \nintended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see \nin what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument you \nthink you are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I cannot guess where you get the idea that I think I'm victorious, \nor why you think \"victory\" is the central point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what was the point you were making, then? Do you disagree with my reasoning regarding the role of Silk in Pas/Silk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much of the difficulty in talking to you is on full display here. You \ncome up with half-processed semi-random stuff out of nowhere and relate \nit to nothing, with no stated assumptions and no attempt at conclusions. \nYou don't bother to follow a logical flow of /if/ and /then/. You don't \ndefine your terms. And then you get personal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so weird. An aspect of the storyline was mentioned (the relationship of Silk to Pas/Silk) and I said what I think about it. You asked me why and I told you the reasons. I didn’t think too hard about them, but they hardly qualify as “half-processed semi-random stuff” — they are pretty specific points that support the conclusion that Silk in Pas/Silk is not a new Piaton. Or do you disagree?\n\nI don’t think I produce semi-random stuff, either half-processed or over-processed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your answers are worse than meaningless because it takes a week to \nextract from you what you meant in the first place, if you meant \nanything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I answered within minutes, and the thing we are discussing is pretty specific, even if we don’t learn too much in the text. (I have still to re-read RttW, in which the Pas/silk relationship is probably best defined, and perhaps I will have more detailed thoughts on the subject then.) But, as I said, the reasons I gave seem to imply that Silk-in-Pas does not become Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is wearying. You never just answer a question about your \nown thoughts with a straight answer. Are you trying to be the Wizard of \nOz or the little man behind the curtain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think I have *secret* reasons for believing what I do about Silk-in-Pas? I don’t. Those things I mentioned are the things that seem relevant to me at this time. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise, if someone brings up more evidence. I had completely forgotten one of the heads of the reconstituted Pas was gasping, which could indicate a Pas closer to his origins than I had thought. But that alone is not enough for me to change my mind on the subject.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:49:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52134.4040308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess \nthat? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head\ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in\nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than \nPiaton’s\nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution\nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is \nintended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see \nin what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument you \nthink you are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I cannot guess where you get the idea that I think I'm victorious, \nor why you think \"victory\" is the central point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what was the point you were making, then? Do you disagree with my reasoning regarding the role of Silk in Pas/Silk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much of the difficulty in talking to you is on full display here. You \ncome up with half-processed semi-random stuff out of nowhere and relate \nit to nothing, with no stated assumptions and no attempt at conclusions. \nYou don't bother to follow a logical flow of /if/ and /then/. You don't \ndefine your terms. And then you get personal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so weird. An aspect of the storyline was mentioned (the relationship of Silk to Pas/Silk) and I said what I think about it. You asked me why and I told you the reasons. I didn’t think too hard about them, but they hardly qualify as “half-processed semi-random stuff” — they are pretty specific points that support the conclusion that Silk in Pas/Silk is not a new Piaton. Or do you disagree?\n\nI don’t think I produce semi-random stuff, either half-processed or over-processed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your answers are worse than meaningless because it takes a week to \nextract from you what you meant in the first place, if you meant \nanything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I answered within minutes, and the thing we are discussing is pretty specific, even if we don’t learn too much in the text. (I have still to re-read RttW, in which the Pas/silk relationship is probably best defined, and perhaps I will have more detailed thoughts on the subject then.) But, as I said, the reasons I gave seem to imply that Silk-in-Pas does not become Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is wearying. You never just answer a question about your \nown thoughts with a straight answer. Are you trying to be the Wizard of \nOz or the little man behind the curtain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think I have *secret* reasons for believing what I do about Silk-in-Pas? I don’t. Those things I mentioned are the things that seem relevant to me at this time. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise, if someone brings up more evidence. I had completely forgotten one of the heads of the reconstituted Pas was gasping, which could indicate a Pas closer to his origins than I had thought. But that alone is not enough for me to change my mind on the subject.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<249750390CD74E679515DBBCD23ACFC7@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T18:49:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52134.4040308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess \nthat? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head\ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in\nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than \nPiaton’s\nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the evolution\nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is \nintended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see \nin what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument you \nthink you are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I cannot guess where you get the idea that I think I'm victorious, \nor why you think \"victory\" is the central point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what was the point you were making, then? Do you disagree with my reasoning regarding the role of Silk in Pas/Silk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much of the difficulty in talking to you is on full display here. You \ncome up with half-processed semi-random stuff out of nowhere and relate \nit to nothing, with no stated assumptions and no attempt at conclusions. \nYou don't bother to follow a logical flow of /if/ and /then/. You don't \ndefine your terms. And then you get personal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so weird. An aspect of the storyline was mentioned (the relationship of Silk to Pas/Silk) and I said what I think about it. You asked me why and I told you the reasons. I didn’t think too hard about them, but they hardly qualify as “half-processed semi-random stuff” — they are pretty specific points that support the conclusion that Silk in Pas/Silk is not a new Piaton. Or do you disagree?\n\nI don’t think I produce semi-random stuff, either half-processed or over-processed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your answers are worse than meaningless because it takes a week to \nextract from you what you meant in the first place, if you meant \nanything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I answered within minutes, and the thing we are discussing is pretty specific, even if we don’t learn too much in the text. (I have still to re-read RttW, in which the Pas/silk relationship is probably best defined, and perhaps I will have more detailed thoughts on the subject then.) But, as I said, the reasons I gave seem to imply that Silk-in-Pas does not become Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is wearying. You never just answer a question about your \nown thoughts with a straight answer. Are you trying to be the Wizard of \nOz or the little man behind the curtain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think I have *secret* reasons for believing what I do about Silk-in-Pas? I don’t. Those things I mentioned are the things that seem relevant to me at this time. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise, if someone brings up more evidence. I had completely forgotten one of the heads of the reconstituted Pas was gasping, which could indicate a Pas closer to his origins than I had thought. But that alone is not enough for me to change my mind on the subject.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52C8C.4030905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:03:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52922.5040503@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:49 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think that there are still some \"minimum requirements\" to the people \nwho advance\nan extravagant new theory -\n\n- if they claim that the theory is supported by the text, it would be \nfair to do the\nwork finding necessary quotations, and honestly present the context \n(not to make\nthe opponent to browse the whole book to find out that the next \nsentence to the\nsentence just quoted is disproving the theory)\n\n- to be polite, and not to present disagreement as stupidity\n\n- not to try to intimidate the opponents presenting their hypotheses\nas common knowledge and consensus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't need to be a so-called extravagant theory for all these rules \nto apply.\nThere are people with extravagant theories who have presented them in \ndetail many times in the past. It's probably not reasonable for anyone \nto be required to back every statement with proof each time they make an \nassertion.\nIf someone makes an assertion and you aren't clear on where it says \nthat, why should anyone but the person making the assertion be required \nto search the books for the text. Have them quote the text verbatim and \ninclude the chapter (page numbers are typically useless). That's hardly \nan onerous burden.\n\n_Arguing_ from the position that any interpretation in this text is mere \n\"common knowledge\" or consensus is bad form. There is actually very \nlittle in these books that everyone agrees on 100%. However, I don't \nfeel the need for everyone to constantly qualify everything with \"I know \nnot everyone sees it that way\". That is probably the one common thread \nin all interpretations of Wolfe's novels.\n\nAs for being polite, I'd say it another way. Remember that we're talking \nabout literature here. Horn's fate does not rest on our conclusion. You \ndon't need to be overtly rude to be annoying. You don't need to call \npeople names to make people want to call you names." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52E63.9030005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52C8C.4030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAs for being polite, I'd say it another way. Remember that we're \ntalking about literature here. Horn's fate does not rest on our \nconclusion. You don't need to be overtly rude to be annoying. You \ndon't need to call people names to make people want to call you names." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also: Not everyone's interpretation is going to be useful to you. If you \nknow in advance that there is no way you are going to be convinced by \nit, consider deeply whether it is worth yours or the other person's time \nto discuss it. If you do it anyway, be sure you can tell yourself why \nand make sure it is a *nice* reason." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52E8A.1020608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51CFB.7010209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (29-11-2011 17:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 11:33 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle\nwrite the story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: What do you base your theory that it was\nHorn and Nettle on? There's no real reason to believe it. It may have\nbeen Marrow's slave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an artless dodge, Antonio. I'll expect an answer to my question\nfirst." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why, seeing as though yours was in response to an unanswered one of mine and \nit is based on what you consider a theory whose assumptions haven't been \nclarified yet?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you admit that when you ask where others get their assumptions from,\n it's a rhetoric/flippant question?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have admitted nothing of the sort. If I am going to discuss a theory, I\n approach it from the position, \"What if it were true? What would I\nexpect?\". I have never said to anyone, for an example, \"This is /your/\ntheory. YOU come up with something that I will accept.\" I've been told\nthat here in various ways by some people. I've seen people say it to\nothers. That's expecting other people to prove you wrong. That's smug.\nThat's a jerk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If a theory hasn't addressed a point, it's stupid to ask how it may do so? I \nknow you've been caught trying to complete other people's theories, but \nthat's not necessarily the only (respectful or otherwise) way to go on about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If everything everyone does has unspeakable motivations, why point\nout that this or that action have unspeakable motivations?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's like saying that because we are all sinners, discussion of\ngood behavior is pointless. It's like saying that anyone who condemns\nbehavior is \"self-righteous\", anyone who earns a decent salary is\n\"greedy\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, that's exactly where your procedure takes us: 'anyone who takes\na part of a literary work a priori at face value is \"theorising\"'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. That' is not where I am taking you. However, the second part is\ntrue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Say what?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am asserting that people who are reading literature are theorizing.\nThey are interpreting from the text the intentions of an author whom they\nhave never met or barely know. I am demolishing the belief (which would\nbe a desirable belief for anyone) that one's own interpretations need no\njustification...it just \"is\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what makes you think you're more enlightened in this respect that anyone\nelse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But being smug doesn't require that you are wrong. It only means that\nyou are not applying to your own theories the rigor to which you are\nwith great adamance disputing others. It is a hypocrisy in which the\nhypocrite has satisfied himself that his hypocrisy is \"authentic\".\nIt's like a tyrant who believes everything he does is just because\nGod put him there. The \"smug\" has constructed a palace of mirrors\nthat all show /only/ himself and always in the perfect light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas others are convinced that their opinions are wrong, correct?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Wow, Antonio, everything with you is either on Everest or at the\nbottom of the Pacific. Do you really read Wolfe's stories with such an\nuncomfortable grasp on the idea of ambiguity? I'll say it again. If you\nengage with someone about ambiguous literary novels like Wolfe's, and you\n approach every question with the attitude, \"Let's see if your weird new\n theory can prove me wrong.\" then you are smug. And you are wasting the\nother person's time. Done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you call people who think others approach every question with that\nattitude?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or - how do you say it? - 'if it's not my theory, they're not applying\nto it the rigor which they are with great adamance disputing me'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If that's what you've got out of our conversation then it is beyond my\nabilities to clarify it better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the problem lies with clarification. For instance, you may \nthink I'm being irritanting for replying with only one or two lines to \nentire parapgraphs of yours. That makes it look like you went to the trouble \nof explaining yourself at length, whereas I ignored all your effort and just \ngrabbed a couple of anchors I though I could deftly hang on to. I know I \nhate it when people do that and I wished to asseverate that is not the case. \nIn this discussion or elsewhere, you're one of the persons I always read \ncarefully, because your arguments are well developed (though I also read \ncarefully some others who mostly just introduce interesting thoughts to the \ndiscussion). But that is not to say I don't find problems also, and one \nproblem I do find is that you seem to want to determine how others should \nrespond to you. And if you're justified in your anger at destructive \nbehaviour, you're also very picky in your judgement. There's more than one \nway to be constructive, and sometimes it's legitimate to ask why is theory X \nbetter than no theory at all (spare us for now the Everything Is A Theory \nbit). If it's right to ask of a professional naysayer what are they doing in \na forum, it's also right to ask what are we sharing our ideas for if \ndiscussion of their plausibility is off-limits.\n\nYou may not notice it, but by taking offense even at the Professional \nNaysayers you're stifling discussion and discouraging new ideas from \nappearing. The people who are accused of Naysaying may in fact express \ndismay at the theories they discuss, but discuss them they do, and in terms \nof the theories themselves. At least up to the point where is becomes a \ndiscussion over their legitimacy as questioners, and that's where people \nother than the handful involved tune off. It may be unfair, but that's how \nit works. If you don't find anything substantive in their objections, why \naddress them? You can keep developping your arguments elsethread. But if you \ndo find something substantive, that's what should be addressed, not the \nunpleasantness of havign rain on one's parade.\n\nThese books are awfully complex and one debating style won't get us all the way.\n\nAnd sometimes, one reads a whole paragraph, and the sum of the ideas in it \ntakes the argument some place, and one asks a simple question about that \nplace so that all can establish new ground and move on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52EC7.2040306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:13:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<418E183434594C1695DC97FD5E81DB00@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Down the rabbit hole again ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 1:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 12:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 11:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But \nI still\nthink that his intended position will not be the equivalent of\nPiaton’s. The two-headed aspect of the god Pas has become \nreal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And ... drum roll ... WHY do you think that? WHY do you guess\nthat? WHY?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Lots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head\ngasping. And I don;t think she’s trying to trick him either. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, in\nRttW he seems to play a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than\nPiaton’s\nrole in Typhon/Piaton. And it fits with the concept of the \nevolution\nof our idea of god which Wolfe seems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thanks for reminding me why I decided to stop talking to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Your response puzzles me. Perhaps the “drum roll” interjection is\nintended to represent some sort of victory screech, but I cannot see\nin what argument you are victorious or even guess in what argument \nyou\nthink you are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I cannot guess where you get the idea that I think I'm victorious,\nor why you think \"victory\" is the central point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what was the point you were making, then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To ask you \"why.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you disagree with my reasoning regarding the role of Silk in Pas/Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I have no idea! How can I? What \"reasoning\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Much of the difficulty in talking to you is on full display here. You\ncome up with half-processed semi-random stuff out of nowhere and relate\nit to nothing, with no stated assumptions and no attempt at \nconclusions.\nYou don't bother to follow a logical flow of /if/ and /then/. You don't\ndefine your terms. And then you get personal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is so weird. An aspect of the storyline was mentioned (the \nrelationship of Silk to Pas/Silk) and I said what I think about it. \nYou asked me why and I told you the reasons. I didn’t think too hard \nabout them, but they hardly qualify as “half-processed semi-random \nstuff” — they are pretty specific points that support the conclusion \nthat Silk in Pas/Silk is not a new Piaton. Or do you disagree?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite. The point raised was whether anyone had any ideas about which \nhead Silk replaced (and by inference what that might mean if anything). \nYou answered so I played along. Here we are. You still haven't given any \ncoherent reasons---you've made statements with no hints as to how they \nare reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think I produce semi-random stuff, either half-processed or \nover-processed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sure of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your answers are worse than meaningless because it takes a week to\nextract from you what you meant in the first place, if you meant\nanything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I answered within minutes, and the thing we are discussing is pretty \nspecific, even if we don’t learn too much in the text. (I have still \nto re-read RttW, in which the Pas/silk relationship is probably best \ndefined, and perhaps I will have more detailed thoughts on the subject \nthen.) But, as I said, the reasons I gave seem to imply that \nSilk-in-Pas does not become Piaton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've said that, but you haven't said why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is wearying. You never just answer a question about your\nown thoughts with a straight answer. Are you trying to be the Wizard of\nOz or the little man behind the curtain?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You think I have *secret* reasons for believing what I do about \nSilk-in-Pas? I don’t. Those things I mentioned are the things that \nseem relevant to me at this time. I’m willing to be convinced \notherwise, if someone brings up more evidence. I had completely \nforgotten one of the heads of the reconstituted Pas was gasping, which \ncould indicate a Pas closer to his origins than I had thought. But \nthat alone is not enough for me to change my mind on the subject." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I don't think you have secret reasons for your opinion. They simply \nhave not been clearly expressed. I couldn't begin to try to change your \nmind, if I cared to do so, without knowing your reasons for your opinions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED52F3E.40202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:15:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52922.5040503@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (29-11-2011 18:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that there are still some \"minimum requirements\" to the people\nwho advance an extravagant new theory -\n\n- if they claim that the theory is supported by the text, it would be\nfair to do the work finding necessary quotations, and honestly present\nthe context (not to make the opponent to browse the whole book to find\nout that the next sentence to the sentence just quoted is disproving the\ntheory)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something which has happened more than once. But of course that applies only\nto the point where there already is an 'opponent'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- to be polite, and not to present disagreement as stupidity" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something which happens all the time, usually in the form of sarcasm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- not to try to intimidate the opponents presenting their hypotheses as\ncommon knowledge and consensus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Pass off as common knowledge and consensus' is also a problem here." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED530FC.6030400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:22:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51D4C.3000206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:46 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 17:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/29/2011 12:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What do you base your theory that it was Horn and Nettle on?\nThere's no real reason to believe it. It may have been Marrow's\nslave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Aren't you now doing what you just told us you can't stand?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Precisely, so that those who don't understand why I can't stand it may\nget an idea.\n\nThe problem with it is not so much the isolated instance. It's that it\ncan go on forever, and the perspective of it going on forever is\ndisheartening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm glad that's clear. I'll assume you're thinking of Gerry...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Believe or not, I wasn't thinking about anyone in particular or even about\nthis list. It's a tactic(?) that pops up every now and then, wherever we may\nbe. I don't think I do it, but I hereby encourage everyone to call me on it\nshould it happen." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED531CB.8030106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52C8C.4030905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 2:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/29/2011 12:49 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that there are still some \"minimum requirements\" to the \npeople who advance\nan extravagant new theory -\n\n- if they claim that the theory is supported by the text, it would be \nfair to do the\nwork finding necessary quotations, and honestly present the context \n(not to make\nthe opponent to browse the whole book to find out that the next \nsentence to the\nsentence just quoted is disproving the theory)\n\n- to be polite, and not to present disagreement as stupidity\n\n- not to try to intimidate the opponents presenting their hypotheses\nas common knowledge and consensus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't need to be a so-called extravagant theory for all these \nrules to apply.\nThere are people with extravagant theories who have presented them in \ndetail many times in the past. It's probably not reasonable for anyone \nto be required to back every statement with proof each time they make \nan assertion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, there's the problem of who decides what theories are \n\"extravagant.\"\n\nFor example, it's OK to describe your vision of the big picture without \nshowing proof; how can you show proof for a theory when it is based on \neverything? But such theories tend to be unprovable and therefore \nundisprovable (and undisprovable does not mean proven). In a sense, \nthen, perhaps it is the most \"extravagant\" theories that ought to \nrequire less proof, not the reverse.\n\nI guess my point is that honesty goes a long way. If a theory is based \non intuition, admit it. If it's based on books outside the text, say so. \nIf you don't know any books outside the text, admit that too. These have \nbeen problems in the past." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED53287.5060302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:29:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED531CB.8030106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (29-11-2011 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess my point is that honesty goes a long way. If a theory is based\non intuition, admit it. If it's based on books outside the text, say so.\nIf you don't know any books outside the text, admit that too. These have\nbeen problems in the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this may be the most important contribution someone sent in a long,\nlong time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<448AE28BD9904A3DA642DF4301BED5F4@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52E63.9030005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also: Not everyone's interpretation is going to be useful to you. If you \nknow in advance that there is no way you are going to be convinced by \nit, consider deeply whether it is worth yours or the other person's time \nto discuss it. If you do it anyway, be sure you can tell yourself why \nand make sure it is a *nice* reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from being misled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T19:59:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<448AE28BD9904A3DA642DF4301BED5F4@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIf you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from being\nmisled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T20:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52EC7.2040306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 1:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote earlier:\nI guess that Silk’s head would replace Piaton’s, then. But I still don’t think \nthat his intended position will not be the equivalent of Piaton’s. The two-headed\naspect of the god Pas has become real.\n\nYou asked (with drum rolls) WHY I guessed or believed those things. And I answered: \n \nLots of reasons. Presumably Kypris doesn’t show Silk his own head gasping. \nAnd I don’t think she’s trying to trick him either. Also, in RttW he seems to\nplay a role in Pas/Silk that is greater than Piaton’s role in Typhon/Piaton. \nAnd it fits with the concept of the evolution of our idea of god which Wolfe\nseems to imply in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is so weird. An aspect of the storyline was mentioned (the \nrelationship of Silk to Pas/Silk) and I said what I think about it. \nYou asked me why and I told you the reasons. I didn’t think too hard \nabout them, but they hardly qualify as “half-processed semi-random \nstuff” — they are pretty specific points that support the conclusion \nthat Silk in Pas/Silk is not a new Piaton. Or do you disagree?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not quite. The point raised was whether anyone had any ideas about which \nhead Silk replaced (and by inference what that might mean if anything). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I thought, and still do, that it is obvious that if Piaton’s gasping head is generally seen when Typhon manifests, then Silk’s head will replace that one. Kypris suggests that Silk and Typhon will be equal: “You’d be him. And he’d be you.” If one head were gasping in the image she shows him, it implicitly contradicts that assertion.\nSo, I assumed that nobody would disagree on the point of which head, and I moved on to the more interesting question of what it means. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You answered so I played along. Here we are. You still haven't given any \ncoherent reasons---you've made statements with no hints as to how they \nare reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you need everything spelled out? I think my reasons were pretty straightforward to understand. I think the choice of head doesn’t mean anything unless one of two things happened: (1) Silk’s head replaced the *non-gasping* head, which would indicate a near-total replacement of Typhon by Silk, or (2) Silk’s head replaced the gasping head, and was gasping itself, which would indicate Silk took on a Piaton-like role.\n\nNeither of these two possibilities fit well with Kypris’s proposal, so I don’t think either of these are what he was shown. Thus he must have replaced the gasping head, but not himself gasping. Hence my answer to the original question.\n\nThis would indicate he had some approximation of equality with Original Pas, unless Kypris was lying to him. And I *think*, though I need to re-read RttW, that her telling the truth fits with the story. Though of course, the opposite could indicate an unpleasant interpretation for Silent/Silver Silk — i.e. that he does not appear in the Sacred Windows because he has not the power to do so. I must confirm on my re-read that there is good evidence that Silk has a real role in New Pas.\n\nAnyway, I hope that’s a sufficient explication.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F98B01F-80B3-468C-B393-F2EEC23FD781@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T20:03:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/29, ?s 19:59, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from \nbeing\nmisled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<34199DA57F254F938D216EF97ABAAB40@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T20:07:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from being\nmisled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It only assumes that some interpretations are wrong, and that some interpretations exist, already discovered or not, that are better than the wrong ones.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T20:50:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<34199DA57F254F938D216EF97ABAAB40@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: None of that can sustain even cursory scrutiny. A “wain” is just a \nlarge cart, but that’s beside the point. The description refers to two of Pas’s \nbulldozers which “were still at work upon the whorl”. They were planting a tree \nbehind his throne. If the mountain head were above a throne, a tree behind it \nwould be kind of invisible, no? It has absolutely nothing to do with the mountain head.\nThe orgy is on a drape Blood has ordered or acquired to cover the Sacred window in his \nbrothel. It is an obscene parody of Campion’s well-known original painting. Typhon did \nnot have two penises, or if he had Severian did not mention it. The two penises in the orgy \npainting are clearly created by a painter steeped in the two-headed iconography of Pas the \nwhorl god — it was painted by someone in the Whorl, and could not have been painted before \nTyphon became Pas. [Campion may or may not have departed with the Whorl.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry, you are entitled to your opinion though I concur that it doesn't sustain even cursory\nscrutiny. You are reading the text in isolationist fashion, as though it is describing some\nreality rather than being a work of literary fiction which contains allusion, often to the \nauthor's own previous work.\n \nIn this case there is a clear, easy to see connection between this painting and Severian's \nencounter with Typhon. We don't know where it was created, Whorl or Urth, but it depicts \nTyphon on Urth, where Typhon actually had a throne. It does not depict Pas. How does a computer \nprogram have a throne, not to mention preside over an orgy?\n \nCampion's painting is a cleaned up version of this one, not the reverse.\n \n(Blood's primary association was with Scylla, not Pas, btw) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:02:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I\ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains\nwho created that fetus and for what purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation. That's a matter of taste." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: .....except that the whole cloning/in \nvivo/possession/scanning trope was plainly already in Wolfe's mind, and \nas such maybe the LS/SS arcs as well. Typhon is a major connection \nbetween Severian in the Citadel and the embryonic Silk in the Whorl. So \nit stands to reason that Typhon created it as a failed experiment on the \nway to devising his colonization strategies, but it's not a critical \nplot point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a matter of taste. It also is a constrast between viewing Wolfe's work as a series\nof isolated incident or carrying a thread of connection as David illustrates. You may take \na reference to a mandragora and choose a Biblical connection to Rachel and exclude the \npossibility that it refers to cloning and a mythological man-dragon.\n\nIt's just that cloning and Typhon are intensely important themes which Wolfe has developed\nin work previous to and post-BotNS. If your preference is to ignore that, and focus on \nan isolated reference to Rachel I am not going to argue that you are \"wrong\". But I see no \nreason to denounce my preference for seeing multiple internal connections across Wolfe's work.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:09:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: It only means that you are not applying to your own theories \nthe rigor to which you are with great adamance disputing others. It is a \nhypocrisy in which the hypocrite has satisfied himself that his hypocrisy is \n\"authentic\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with what I think is James' philosophy that one should apply their\ncritical analysis most stringently upon one's self and one's own theories \nand ideas. Devoting one's criticism solely to the ideas of others is smug, \ncheap and easy. My impression is that James is not a hypocrite and that he\nself-reviews and self-critiques to a very high level. I look up to his \nexample. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:12:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I think plural is \"calculi\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\"Calculii\" maybe? If \"calculus\" is singular, male form.\n \nPlural of female \"calcula\" would be calculae, iirc.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED54C00.6090104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:17:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 3:03 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 1:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net\nNot quite. The point raised was whether anyone had any ideas about \nwhich\nhead Silk replaced (and by inference what that might mean if anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I thought, and still do, that it is obvious that if Piaton’s \ngasping head is generally seen when Typhon manifests, then Silk’s head \nwill replace that one. Kypris suggests that Silk and Typhon will be \nequal: “You’d be him. And he’d be you.” If one head were gasping in \nthe image she shows him, it implicitly contradicts that assertion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought you had forgotten that Piaton's head lolled and gasped. But \nobviously I can see how “You’d be him. And he’d be you.” is ambiguous in \nthe case of a two-headed god, which is why I raised the point.\n\nStill, the \"plain\" meaning of that line is that \"Silk would be Pas and \nPas would be Silk. Why? Because Kypris is talking about Pas, not \nTyphon, and because we know about the gods' ability to possess. Is there \nanything wrong with this reading?\n\nI have already said that Silk's replacing Piaton might suggest a junior \nstatus, which would indeed contradict the equality and identity Kypris \nhas claimed. So we agree on that. Therefore I doubt that Silk replaced \nPiaton at all. Whether he is gasping or not is irrelevant because it \nisn't mentioned; I think it probably didn't happen.\n\nOn the other hand, Silk's replacing Typhon's head corresponds best with \nhis \"being\" Pas, since Piaton is merely a host, like the Whorl god Pas's \nbanks of electronics. Pas is a scan of Typhon, not Piaton. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, I assumed that nobody would disagree on the point of which head, \nand I moved on to the more interesting question of what it means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It had barely been discussed!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You answered so I played along. Here we are. You still haven't given \nany\ncoherent reasons---you've made statements with no hints as to how they\nare reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you need everything spelled out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's just say \"yes.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think my reasons were pretty straightforward to understand. I think \nthe choice of head doesn’t mean anything unless one of two things \nhappened: (1) Silk’s head replaced the *non-gasping* head, which would \nindicate a near-total replacement of Typhon by Silk, or (2) Silk’s \nhead replaced the gasping head, and was gasping itself, which would \nindicate Silk took on a Piaton-like role." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More or less as I said in my \"rider or ridden\" formulation of the \nquestion. But remember Pas has nothing of Piaton in him aside from his \nimage, since we know Pas began as a scan of Typhon, not Piaton. Right?\n\nThat means *there is no literal meaning* to Silk replacing Piaton. It \ncan only be symbolic. In fact, given what Kypris said and what we know \nof BSS, Silk is *both* rider and ridden. Pas has absorbed him and he has \nabsorbed Pas. Kypris said so. Does that make sense?\n\nIf Wolfe tipped us to Silk being one or the other---and he did \nnot---then we might expect and look for more of one and less of the \nother. Thus my question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither of these two possibilities fit well with Kypris’s proposal, so \nI don’t think either of these are what he was shown. Thus he must have \nreplaced the gasping head, but not himself gasping. Hence my answer to \nthe original question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text says nothing about this. It says \"One of them was Silk's.\"\n\nBut now I'm confused: You said \"the choice of head doesn’t mean anything \nunless one of two things happened\" and then you said \"Neither of these \ntwo possibilities fit well with Kypris’s proposal, so I don’t think \neither of these are what he was shown.\" Does this mean you think \"he \nmust have replaced the gasping head, but not himself gasping\"---your own \nanswer---does not mean anything?\n\nSomehow you have managed to argue that Silk is now a non-gasping Piaton \nwithout touching on anything I'd call evidence. Do you see why I pressed \nfor details?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would indicate he had some approximation of equality with \nOriginal Pas, unless Kypris was lying to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree about equality, although Kypris addresses identity, which should \ntrump equality. But I don't see how Silk = Piaton creates equality, even \nnon-gasping equality. Piaton was a slave. Typhon rode him like a horse \nand he helped Severian kill Typhon. Not an auspicious depiction of a \nsoul-swapping transaction with a god." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I *think*, though I need to re-read RttW, that her telling the \ntruth fits with the story. Though of course, the opposite could \nindicate an unpleasant interpretation for Silent/Silver Silk — i.e. \nthat he does not appear in the Sacred Windows because he has not the \npower to do so. I must confirm on my re-read that there is good \nevidence that Silk has a real role in New Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too. I am honestly not even sure Silk went for the scan, although the \nexistence of the Silly Silks seems to demand it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I hope that’s a sufficient explication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have serious problems with it, but thanks for providing it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED54CDD.1040805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED52E8A.1020608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAntonio, what do you suppose the point was in having Horn and Nettle\nwrite the story as opposed to an omniscient third-person narrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhy [answer you], seeing as though yours was in response to an \nunanswered one of mine and it is based on what you consider a theory \nwhose assumptions haven't been clarified yet?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're still dodging...and being pointlessly argumentative. When you \nhave written six posts attempting to clarify an answer to this \nquestion, then you can evoke parity between us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am asserting that people who are reading literature are theorizing.\nThey are interpreting from the text the intentions of an author whom \nthey\nhave never met or barely know. I am demolishing the belief (which would\nbe a desirable belief for anyone) that one's own interpretations need no\njustification...it just \"is\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what makes you think you're more enlightened in this respect that \nanyone\nelse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing. I am interpreting as well. I don't recall establishing a \ncomparison. If you or I engage someone with a supposedly \"extravagant\" \nexplanation and start from the position that it must be compared to a \n\"standard\" (which by some fortuitous fluke happens to be our own \nunderstanding of the text) then you or I are behaving in an \nunenlightened manner. I'm not going to be painted in corner in which \ndenouncing thoughtless arrogance is in itself arrogant. That way lies \ndestruction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I'll say it again. If you\nengage with someone about ambiguous literary novels like Wolfe's, and \nyou\n approach every question with the attitude, \"Let's see if your weird new\n theory can prove me wrong.\" then you are smug. And you are wasting the\nother person's time. Done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you call people who think others approach every question with \nthat\nattitude?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or - how do you say it? - 'if it's not my theory, they're not applying\nto it the rigor which they are with great adamance disputing me'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If that's what you've got out of our conversation then it is beyond my\nabilities to clarify it better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think the problem lies with clarification. For instance, you \nmay think I'm being irritanting for replying with only one or two \nlines to entire parapgraphs of yours. That makes it look like you went \nto the trouble of explaining yourself at length, whereas I ignored all \nyour effort and just grabbed a couple of anchors I though I could \ndeftly hang on to. I know I hate it when people do that and I wished \nto asseverate that is not the case. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is good, certainly, that you are aware of the intense similarity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Antonio says a lot of good and complimentary stuff]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Declaring someone's model to be simply untenable, because, well, it just \nobviously is...that is a huge waste of that person's time. If that is \none's approach, he should move on. It is not necessary for anyone to \ncomment on every thread. It distresses some people that some people are \nhaving long threads of discussions that they don't find interesting or \nuseful or true...as though someone felt that every conversation at a \nparty had to be interesting to him.\n\nIt is intriguing that you can see how a supposedly untenable theory is \na distraction, but you believe that 1) someone with an interpretation \nthat (supposedly) brooks no literary allusions or irony and 2) makes \never increasing demands that others' explanations explain _everything_ , \neven the authors failure to present the story in a way that would make \nit emphatically clear to HIMSELF...that you don't see that as being an \nissue of distraction. What we have here are two separate \ninterpretations of the text (I'm sorry but that's simply the way I read \nit--see? I am not setting my conclusions above anyone else's here). No \nuse can come of insisting that the extravagant high literary theory must \nmetaphysically trump the extravagantly mundane-focused theory to be \nvalid. Both must be considered separately on their own merits. \nOtherwise, it affords the extravagantly mundane theorist the luxury of \nforever, and self-satisfyingly saying \"no\"; which he will 99 times out \nof 100.\n\n\"Professional Naysayers\" (to the extent that designation applies) are \nnot furthering discussion, Antonio, anymore than than a house built on \ntop of an intersection is furthering the flow of traffic by making \neveryone route around it. If every response comes down to \"I don't see \nit\", well, any blind man can take that position regarding a sunset. I \ntake no offense to such people, unless...\n\n a) After many missives I realize that their point was to establish\n that their viewpoint is unassailable.\n\n b) the I have carefully attempted to answer their questions and they\n responds with an answer formatted for its supposed cleverness or\n sneer-quality\n (I don't make any insistence about how people respond to me. You are\n wrong about that. But I'm not required to like it if they are\n boorish--or boarish-- or hostile. I've recently decided that the\n best way to respond in those cases is to in some way acknowledge\n that, yes, I did note that trollish response --which the person\n certainly wanted for me to notice-- without directly engaging it. I\n will not psychoanalyze the behavior. I will not try to get the\n person to admit the behavior nor reform. I need no confirmation from\n them for what I have clearly read.)\n\nI'm not interested in debating for points or earning a reputation. My \nproblem with smug people is not that they are smug, it is that they \nusually waste my time. They offer me no significant insight into our \nconversation because they are not really interested in my half of it. \nThey are only interested in how cleanly they can strike. Their opinion \nof their own intelligence, without exception in my experience, far \nexceeds the reality from my perspective." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's Ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED54CDD.1040805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: There is actually very little in these books that everyone agrees on 100%." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. That's for sure. A couple months ago I tried to think of an example of one- that the \nevents of BotNS take place in South America (or its analog) and got a denial and argument\nfrom Jerry. Given that, I suppose it is ridiculous to think we could agree on something\nmore abstract, such as the meaning of the Mandragora. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED54D26.2050702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:22:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2011 3:50 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: None of that can sustain even cursory scrutiny. A “wain” is just a\nlarge cart, but that’s beside the point. The description refers to two of Pas’s\nbulldozers which “were still at work upon the whorl”. They were planting a tree\nbehind his throne. If the mountain head were above a throne, a tree behind it\nwould be kind of invisible, no? It has absolutely nothing to do with the mountain head.\nThe orgy is on a drape Blood has ordered or acquired to cover the Sacred window in his\nbrothel. It is an obscene parody of Campion’s well-known original painting. Typhon did\nnot have two penises, or if he had Severian did not mention it. The two penises in the orgy\npainting are clearly created by a painter steeped in the two-headed iconography of Pas the\nwhorl god — it was painted by someone in the Whorl, and could not have been painted before\nTyphon became Pas. [Campion may or may not have departed with the Whorl.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, you are entitled to your opinion though I concur that it doesn't sustain even cursory\nscrutiny. You are reading the text in isolationist fashion, as though it is describing some\nreality rather than being a work of literary fiction which contains allusion, often to the\nauthor's own previous work.\n\nIn this case there is a clear, easy to see connection between this painting and Severian's\nencounter with Typhon. We don't know where it was created, Whorl or Urth, but it depicts\nTyphon on Urth, where Typhon actually had a throne. It does not depict Pas. How does a computer\nprogram have a throne, not to mention preside over an orgy?\n\nCampion's painting is a cleaned up version of this one, not the reverse.\n\n(Blood's primary association was with Scylla, not Pas, btw) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry has a point, however, in saying that Typhon did not have two \npenises. I'd put this down to (a) the propagandizing of Typhon as Pas \n(better to suggest the Tyrant God is a double being rather than a \nsurgical freakshow) and (b) Wolfe's motif of doubling (hybridization and \npossession). As someone noted recently, there are miracles false and \ntrue; there may also be ways to fake doubling. Typhon is such a fake." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED54D26.2050702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: If you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from \nbeing misled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Our knight in shining armour!\n \nBut is it possible \"others\" don't really need saving? Are not \"others\" fully \ncapable of deciding for themselves which interpretations have merit? Do \n\"others\" really need Gerry Quinn to do this work for them? What qualifies you\nfor this position as saviour?\n \nGerry is it possible your contributions are actually more self-serving than in\nthe service of others? I do appreciate your honesty in posting such a revealing \nand candid statement of your intentions. And I apologize for the rhetorical \nquestions. But perhaps they are worth asking. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T22:01:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: None of that can sustain even cursory scrutiny. A “wain” is just a \nlarge cart, but that’s beside the point. The description refers to two of Pas’s \nbulldozers which “were still at work upon the whorl”. They were planting a tree \nbehind his throne. If the mountain head were above a throne, a tree behind it \nwould be kind of invisible, no? It has absolutely nothing to do with the mountain head.\nThe orgy is on a drape Blood has ordered or acquired to cover the Sacred window in his \nrothel. It is an obscene parody of Campion’s well-known original painting. Typhon did \nnot have two penises, or if he had Severian did not mention it. The two penises in the orgy \npainting are clearly created by a painter steeped in the two-headed iconography of Pas the \nwhorl god — it was painted by someone in the Whorl, and could not have been painted before \nTyphon became Pas. [Campion may or may not have departed with the Whorl.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, you are entitled to your opinion though I concur that it doesn't sustain even cursory\nscrutiny. You are reading the text in isolationist fashion, as though it is describing some\nreality rather than being a work of literary fiction which contains allusion, often to the \nauthor's own previous work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I’m reading the text in order to learn what the author meant to imply by it, which in this case is really rather clear. If the text says “Silk went through the door”, we do not have to drag up every instance of a door being mentioned in the text to understand it. Much the same may be said of erections." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case there is a clear, easy to see connection between this painting and Severian's \nencounter with Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is zero connection. Typhon has an erection when he is excited by the exercise of power. Porno-Pas has two erections in Blood’s painting. But these have nothing in particular to do with one another. Erections are not uncommon in hard-core pornographic images; it is their absence that would be surprising." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We don't know where it was created, Whorl or Urth, but it depicts \nTyphon on Urth, where Typhon actually had a throne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It cannot depict Typhon on Urth. There is no plausible reason that an artist would represent Typhon with two penises, so clearly the pornographic image depicts Pas. And therefore it was painted on the Whorl, where Pas rules.\n\nThe original, non-pornographic picture by Campion on which it was based also depicts Pas. Arguably. however, it depicts Typhon also. Both paintings include both a physical and a non-physical figure (“the vast, dim faces of the spiritual Pas”). The physical figure in Campion’s original may be intended to represent the Monarch’s creation of the Whorl, where his spiritual self is being enthroned. The painting is set on the Whorl. We are told so in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does not depict Pas. \nHow does a computer program have a throne, not to mention preside over an orgy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A computer program doesn’t have a throne, but there is no reason why a painting of one cannot include a throne, or an orgy, or both. Pas is depicted in many ways by his worshippers (and, as we see, by others). The content of Campion’s painting is metaphorical for the most part.\n\nAnd certainly the gods of the Whorl could preside over orgies, if they so wished. Apparently they do not, but that’s no reason why Blood’s unknown artist, creating a painting suitable for a brothel, should not have imagined it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Campion's painting is a cleaned up version of this one, not the reverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet another reason to rule this out is Blood’s observation, “do you know how much that stuff costs?” which has a clear implication of “a bit but not as much as an antique from before the time of the Whorl”. Most likely Blood or a previous owner of the brothel had it commissioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Blood's primary association was with Scylla, not Pas, btw) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And? Maybe he has Scylla-porn drapes too. Tentacles everywhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5599A.3090001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T22:15:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 5:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In this case there is a clear, easy to see connection between this \npainting and Severian's\nencounter with Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is zero connection. Typhon has an erection when he is excited by \nthe exercise of power. Porno-Pas has two erections in Blood’s \npainting. But these have nothing in particular to do with one another. \nErections are not uncommon in hard-core pornographic images; it is \ntheir absence that would be surprising." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I AM impressed!\n\nAlong these lines, I argue that Severian is not an important character \nand narrator in BNS. After all, novels usually have protagonists as well \nas narrators. It would be a poor novel that lacked either. Therefore, we \nshould pay not attention to what Severian says or does.\n\nStill, Gerry again has a point. The scene is in a brothel. It may well \nbe *more* accurate a depiction in some ways than Campion's. But that's \nirony, not necessarily evidence of historical proximity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<84A58C1B141645229F0FB21A9970FB14@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T22:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: If you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from \nbeing misled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But is it possible \"others\" don't really need saving? Are not \"others\" fully \ncapable of deciding for themselves which interpretations have merit? Do \n\"others\" really need Gerry Quinn to do this work for them? What qualifies you\nfor this position as saviour?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You might as well argue that nobody should post their interpretations, as others could think them up for themselves.\n\nIf people have already worked out my reason or another reason why an interpretation must be wrong, of course I do not save them time. But I’d say on balance I am their saviour of time, if you want to used such a perverse sense of the word “saviour”. \n\nWhat qualifies me for the position of saviour of their time is merely a post that saves them time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry is it possible your contributions are actually more self-serving than in\nthe service of others? I do appreciate your honesty in posting such a revealing \nand candid statement of your intentions. And I apologize for the rhetorical \nquestions. But perhaps they are worth asking. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It’s hard to see what I gain from pointing out flaws in theories, except what everyone gains, i.e. a better feel for which theories are viable. Whatever my motivations, what you seem to be doing is implicitly calling for the censorship of posts that point out flaws in theories, or perhaps only in your preferred theories. Such censorship is rarely conducive to progress.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5605F.10807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T22:44:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4F98B01F-80B3-468C-B393-F2EEC23FD781@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIf you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from being\nmisled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhat do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but if your method of proof is to assert that there is an \nalternate interpretation, then you aren't proving anything except that \nthere is an alternate interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322608901.75810.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T23:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED50A58.7080100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/29/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\nBecause the text says so. But --guess what?-- that's\nNOT the only theory. Marc has posited that the whole event\nand Silk's communication with the Outsider was engineered by\nPas and Kypris. I can bring up technical refutations (\"Pas\nis dead.\") but I fully know that I would like the story less\nif the enlightenment were a ruse. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just going to barge in here, because I feel like this lack of \"true\" enlightenment is being a bit ... not misconstrued, but used in a secular anti-spiritual way I don't think is necessarily conducive to Gene's point of view. I DO think that the voices Silk hears can be physically explained to some degree in that they were preprogrammed by his parents, Pas/Kypris, and I do find it ironic that these voices would lead him to reject the religion established by Pas to a great degree in something outside it [the Outsider Pas imitates), but I also find it wonderfully ironic that a false elightenment can be a true enlightenment, too, and serve a greater purpose. Pas was calling him to his function as son and savior, but the words of Pas the demiurge helped create something much more spiritual than was originally intended. So ultimately it doesn't matter at all whether there is a physical mechanism for those voices (I think there is) - it still has a\n mysterious impact. Silks is a good man in a misguided religion, but enlightenment, whether related to a physical 1-2-3 type cause and effect or not explainable by the reality, is still enlightenment. That's all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5736C.4020907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-30T00:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322608901.75810.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 6:21 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Tue, 11/29/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because the text says so. But --guess what?-- that's\nNOT the only theory. Marc has posited that the whole event\nand Silk's communication with the Outsider was engineered by\nPas and Kypris. I can bring up technical refutations (\"Pas\nis dead.\") but I fully know that I would like the story less\nif the enlightenment were a ruse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just going to barge in here, because I feel like this lack of \"true\" enlightenment is being a bit ... not misconstrued, but used in a secular anti-spiritual way I don't think is necessarily conducive to Gene's point of view. I DO think that the voices Silk hears can be physically explained to some degree in that they were preprogrammed by his parents, Pas/Kypris, and I do find it ironic that these voices would lead him to reject the religion established by Pas to a great degree in something outside it [the Outsider Pas imitates), but I also find it wonderfully ironic that a false elightenment can be a true enlightenment, too, and serve a greater purpose. Pas was calling him to his function as son and savior, but the words of Pas the demiurge helped create something much more spiritual than was originally intended. So ultimately it doesn't matter at all whether there is a physical mechanism for those voices (I think there is) - it still has a\n mysterious impact. Silks is a good man in a misguided religion, but enlightenment, whether related to a physical 1-2-3 type cause and effect or not explainable by the reality, is still enlightenment. That's all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. That is the only way any enlightenment could be \"true\": all \nenlightenment must be true. All the various mechanics of enlightenment \nare too easy to explain away, after Dr Crane's fashion. But it's the \nresult that matters, not the cause. It's what the subject does next that \nmatters. If that were not the case, Silk may as well be a robot \nreceiving instructions radioed to the fillings in his teeth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED5737D.7050303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T00:06:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED5605F.10807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIf you can show an interpretation is wrong, you save others from being\nmisled by it. Seems a good reason to point out the problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhat do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but if your method of proof is to assert that there is an\nalternate interpretation, then you aren't proving anything except that\nthere is an alternate interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can become entangled, no? When you point out actual problems with an \ninterpretation and *then* people ask you for an alternative, they are \nthe ones admitting the alternative as a method of 'proof' against the other:\n\n- A says X in explanation of P\n- B points out that X doesn't go well with 1 and 2\n- A then asks for an explanation of P that has no problems with 1 and 2\n- B provides Y, effectively showing that it's possible to explain P \nwithout clashing with 1 and 2\n\nIn that case, Y doesn't disprove X. It's 1 and 2 that disprove X. The \nrole of Y is to show that it's possible to solve P in harmony with 1 and \n2. That is relevant because if no one could come up with a solution of P \nthat wasn't invalidated by 1 or 2 or whatever, then it could be argued \nthat the necessity of solving P anyway trumped the objections of 1 and \n2. (Though as I'll say below I don't think this last argument ever holds.)\n\nI know it's fashionable here now to say that in a Wolfe story there are \nalways explanations of type Y which are meant for the simple minded, \nwith an X kept for those who aim higher. However, I don't see that \nthat's the case. In my experience, yes, there are always commonplace or \neven somewhat elaborate type Y explanations, and there are often others \nwhich are not obvious, but they're not type X, violating 1 and 2, \nthey're type W, looking at it all from a dazzling perspective but \nviolating nothing.\n\n(That's why, for instance, I think Marc's ideas, while possibly very off \nthe mark, are going on about it The Right Way. And yes, I think many of \nyours do too. Or Ryan's.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322617985.89021.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T01:53:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED5737D.7050303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/29/11, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\n(That's why, for instance, I think Marc's ideas, while\npossibly very off the mark, are going on about it The Right\nWay. And yes, I think many of yours do too. Or Ryan's.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks! The caveat here is that they are never very far off the marc." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322618643.77333.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T02:04:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED51405.6020101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/29/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Pike's ghost\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, November 29, 2011, 9:19 AM\nOn 11/29/2011 11:09 AM, Ant?nio\nPedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now for something completely different (really). Who\nis (are?) the Silk in the Rajan?\n\n- Has the original Silk been lost?\n- No Silk we meet seems to know anything about the 20\nyears of Silk's life after Horn left the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously, I believe that Wolfe has created a narrator for\nthese stories who, while writing in first-person, is\nanalogous to Horn and Nettle writing about Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- At the end of RW we simultaneously learn how 'a'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk may or may have not been hiding in Pig, and how 'Silk'\naccepts he is Silk in New Viron. \n\nThat's not my interpretation of the final events at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, the two episodes have no connection between\nthem. The 'Silk in denial' we meet, except for the bit\naboard the Whorl, is all after the appearance of the Silk in\nPig. Which Silk is the one in Pig? Does he or does he not\nget into the [then yet to be] Rajan?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is an interesting question as to whether Silver Silk has\npossessed the Rajan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am almost certain the reason for the conclusion of Short Sun being the sacrifice of the eye (in flash back anyway) is simply that THAT is the moment when Silk is \"saved\"/rebooted. He pretty much left the building/lost his will to live when Hy died, and that reboot is an integral way to the manner I read the text: most of the Rajan post OBW is, in my opinion, dominated by the Silver Silk personality that rode in Pig. I guess I could be wrong, but I think that is key to Silk's reconstitution, re-enacting the reconstitution of Pas." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322618953.72966.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T02:09:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322618643.77333.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 11/29/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nI am almost certain the reason for the conclusion of Short\nSun being the sacrifice of the eye (in flash back anyway) is\nsimply that THAT is the moment when Silk is\n\"saved\"/rebooted. He pretty much left the\nbuilding/lost his will to live when Hy died, and that reboot\nis an integral way to the manner I read the text: most of\nthe Rajan post OBW is, in my opinion, dominated by the\nSilver Silk personality that rode in Pig. I guess I\ncould be wrong, but I think that is key to Silk's\nreconstitution, re-enacting the reconstitution of Pas.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also wanted to add very breifly that I think Gene has mastered the understated conclusions that don't feel like conclusions: saving Silk at the end of RttW is involved in that flash of colors that, once Pig has his eye, can be used to transfer Silk back to his own body, out from his own plucked out eye and back in through the whole one: this is the point where search for Silk \"ended\" - the rest was just tying it up, Horn saying his goodbyes, and Silk (and whatever else is in there with him that grants him special qualities) taking up Horn's quest home mistakenly. \n{I argue that the other conclusion is symbolic: the text of the sprouting Hyacinth shows the fate of man, though crushed under the shepherd's heel. But that is unrelated to the Pig - eyed true conclusion.}" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322631490.25296.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T05:38:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED4E975.4030303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nOn 11/29/2011 1:23 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: \nFrom: Lee Berman \nIf a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I \ncan't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains \nwho created that fetus and for what purpose. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation. That's a matter of taste. However, I am saying that because of the Levi quotation, or just because a??fabulous mandrake root is something human-like but not really human, I don't think it's valid to say that the only possible reason for Wolfe to use the word was as a connection to Typhon. Indeed, I think it's quite possible that such a connection never entered his mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, what's the Levi quotation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sentence from the occultist Eliphas Levi, which I'd quoted earlier.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of \nthe mandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a \nsoil sufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said root, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's quite possible, except that the whole cloning/in" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "????vivo/possession/scanning trope was plainly already in Wolfe's mind,\n????and as such maybe the LS/SS arcs as well. Typhon is a major\n????connection between Severian in the Citadel and the embryonic Silk in\n????the Whorl. So it stands to reason that Typhon created it as a failed\n????experiment on the way to devising his colonization strategies,\n\nWell, I'd say it's no inconsistent with anything. I'm very hesitant to interpret anything in BotNS based on the possibility that Wolfe was already thinking of the Long and Short Sun books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but it's not a critical plot point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As larry says, mandrake and Mandragora " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "both point to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate \nthe matter with that, for now)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why don't they point to Ymar? The two Biblical references to mandrakes are in connection with Rachel and\nthe maiden in the Song of Songs, both types of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology (or I can find at least one\nsource that says that about each one). I don't think I need to make the last connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, please do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last connection is that Ymar is an anagram of Mary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't follow this or know the references at" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "????all. Why Ymar? (I did just find the Rachel ones but don;t know how\n????to interpret them.)\n\n\nJust disagreeing with Lee's comment that the word \"mandragora\" could only point to Typhon. I don't think any of these word games /necessarily/ point to one thing. You can always find connections to others. Of course, you and Lee and others may have reasons for preferring one connection.\n\n\nI meant to add that \"mandragora\" can suggest \"dragoman\". Agia and the jungle guide might both count as dragomans. Maybe some people will like a possible connection between the mandragora and Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or why not the Sleeper? Shakespeare refers to mandragora as a soporific, including in a fairly famous passage from /Othello/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meaning \"the sleepers\" on the Whorl? Or another sleeper?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking of the god worshiped on Ushas under that name, but any one you want." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or Severian in his first life or two? The most famous quotation about a mandrake starts \"Go and catch a falling star\", which immediately brings to mind the slingers' song, which Wolfe said illuminates--darkly--Severian's past and future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This quotation?:\n\n?Go, and catch a falling star, / Get with child a mandrake root, / Tell me, where all past years are, / Or who cleft the Devil's foot. \n?John Donne quotes(English poet, 1572-1631)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is indeed striking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great lines, and of course Severian finds out where past years are. Other connections can easily be made. But I can't say whether Wolfe had it mind or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://books.google.com/books?id=N-IemS8Uqn0C&pg=PA233 (You might prefer to associate the falling star with Lucifer and thus with Satan, who Typhon echoes.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: The question is who that someone is. \nNot necessarily. Maybe we're meant to leave it as a mystery and concentrate on the interaction between Severian and the homunculus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. But the Donne quote, if it is a key link, does lead to the\n????image of impregnating a mandrake root, which takes us back to who\n????and why, and what resulted from it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oddly enough, it doesn't take me to those questions at all.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322632852.7615.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T06:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " If a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent \nreason, I\n can't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which \nexplains\n who created that fetus and for what purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Okay. I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation. That's \na matter of taste." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: .....except that the whole cloning/in \nvivo/possession/scanning trope was plainly already in Wolfe's mind, and \nas such maybe the LS/SS arcs as well. Typhon is a major connection \nbetween Severian in the Citadel and the embryonic Silk in the Whorl. So \nit stands to reason that Typhon created it as a failed experiment on the \nway to devising his colonization strategies, but it's not a critical \nplot point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a matter of taste. It also is a constrast between viewing Wolfe's work \nas a series of isolated incident" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't view it that way. Are you perhaps reasoning that if one possible connection doesn't interest me, I don't see any connections?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or carrying a thread of connection as David illustrates. You may take \na reference to a mandragora and choose a Biblical connection to Rachel and \nexclude the possibility that it refers to cloning and a mythological man-dragon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't exclude anything. I don't know where you got the idea that I might have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just that cloning and Typhon are intensely important themes which Wolfe \nhas developed in work previous to and post-BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So is the creation of non-cloned sentient beings, such as Dr. Talos, who you mentioned earlier. Are you excluding that as a possibility for the mandragora?\n\nIn general, biological engineering and its creations, or should I call them its victims, are important themes in Wolfe's work. I take it we all agree that the mandragora is an instance of that theme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If your preference is to ignore that, and focus on an isolated reference to Rachel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wasn't isolated--I connected that reference and the Shulamite reference to Ymar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not going to argue that you are \"wrong\". But I see no \nreason to denounce my preference for seeing multiple internal connections across \nWolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good thing I didn't denounce it. I was arguing against your statement that there was only one internal connection from the word \"mandragora\".\n\nI admit this might make you, or someone else who thought it was the only possibility, less sure of the connection. But Wolfe is sometimes ambiguous.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T06:25:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322632852.7615.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry has a point, however, in saying that Typhon did not have two penises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe only point made by this observation is that this is meant as a work of art \n\nnot a photographic portrait. The two penises are clearly a reference to Typhon's\n\ntwo heads (I think it might be auctorial error on WOlfe's part to give Pas two \n\nheads, as we all know Typhon's two heads were a deeply kept secret). It may also\n\nreflect the Typhon family's snake-like nature. Many snakes have two penises and\n\nmy impression from his work is that Wolfe's zoological knowledge is sufficient \n\nfor him to know this.\n\n \n\nMoreover, there are giant phallic images surrounding Typhon in the painting. \n\nCampion renders them as trees (Trees as phallic symbols, is this of interest to\n\nJames and Marc? ;- )). So yes, this is a work of art.\n\n \n\nA work of art depicting Typhon on Urth. The connections to what we learn from \n\nSeverian are pretty hard to ignore. Should we really think that WOlfe used the \n\nterm \"nursing an erection\" twice in reference to the same (or a derived) character \n\nby accident or happenstance, as Gerry is suggesting? Is Wolfe really so oblivious\n\nto his own previous writing?\n\n \n\nThe whorl during Silk's life does not have monarchs sitting on thrones. \n\nThe rulers of the Whorl are Caldes or Ayuntamientos or Generals who surely \n\nwould not be caught publicly masturbating as Severian tells us Typhon is willing\n\nto do.\n\n \n\nPas is a computer program who, whenever he appeared, did so in a screen. I don't \n\nthink he was sitting in a throne, masturbating in his screen appearances. The \n\npainting is clearly not inspired by anything occurring on the Whorl. Through the \n\nSeverian connection and Typhon's depicted status as a throne-sitting monarch, the \n\npainting clearly depicts a scene from Urth.\n\n \n\nSo, Gerry made a mistake here. No big deal. He is right about many things and has\n\nno need to feel ashamed about this particular misreading. I don't even begrudge him\n\na bit of pride-salvaging if he would like to continue ignoring the reference to\n\nSeverian's Typhon encounter and instead argue that WOlfe put the painting into \n\nhis story to simply to add a splash of color and some gratuitous porn in a brothel. \n\nPerhaps that really is how Gerry sees Wolfe as a author. \n\n \n\nBut that's not really my business. I have no interest in \"saving\" people from wasting \n\ntheir time with Gerry. He is surely a good guy at heart and I really don't want people \n\nto ignore him. I no more want to \"censor\" him than he intends to censor the people who\n\npost theories he doesn't like. Gerry and I are both highly appreciative of all the \n\ncontributions and contributors to this list. Thank you. Thank you all. From both of us. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T06:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Thanks! The caveat here is that they are never very far off the marc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh. Good aim with your punning, Mr. Marcsman. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<869DEB39C135477A9BD0F9F0ACBA27B3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T12:29:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322618643.77333.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am almost certain the reason for the conclusion of Short Sun being the sacrifice\n of the eye (in flash back anyway) is simply that THAT is the moment when Silk is\n \"saved\"/rebooted. He pretty much left the building/lost his will to live when Hy \ndied, and that reboot is an integral way to the manner I read the text: most of\n the Rajan post OBW is, in my opinion, dominated by the Silver Silk personality \nthat rode in Pig. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something struck me in that paragraph. When you mention Silver Silk, are you saying that the Silver/Silent aspect of Silk is what leads him to ride quietly in SilkHorn? That he’s kind of looking through SilkHorn’s eye like he does Sacred windows, without taking over?\n\nIt would be interesting perspective on the Silver/Silent thing. It could also be intended to work in reverse, i.e. we might think of Silk silently travelling in SilkHorn and speculate about life for Silk in Mainframe.\n\nI’m not very convinced by this concept, but it seems worth thinking about.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<91DEF7B954A849B4BEC097B4D7772A9C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T12:34:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED54C00.6090104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \n\n[Which head?]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, I hope that’s a sufficient explication." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have serious problems with it, but thanks for providing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it hard to disentangle this post, but I suspect we agree in general on how Silk relates to Pas, even if we don’t quite understand each others? explanations...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T13:12:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<91DEF7B954A849B4BEC097B4D7772A9C@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I know it's fashionable here now to say that in a Wolfe \nstory there are always explanations of type Y which are meant for the simple minded, \nwith an X kept for those who aim higher. However, I don't see that that's the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is not the case. The adjective \"fashionable\" implies there is some sissy-boy elite\nwho impose arbitrary levels of nobility to different sorts of explanations. If anyone\nhas the authority to impose a hierarchy on levels of understanding, it is Gene Wolfe.\nAnd he has made it clear in BotNS, using two different analogies, that there are\ndifferent levels of understanding but they are circular not stacked. If the lowest\nlevel is also the highest, there is no hierarchy. No top dog category of theories\nwhich dominate the lower dogs in the hierarchy.\n \nI see no reason for those who prefer to focus on \"ploughman's\" understanding of the text\nto feel inferior and attacked by those who focus the more allusory, philosophical \nunderstandings. This feeling of being attacked seems to lead to a hurt, defensive stance\nwhich contributes to much of the rancor and bile found here.\n \nAs I've noted in another post, in many cases the philosophical understanding can be easier\nto grasp, as it runs in threads through all of Wolfe's work. He doesn't change his\nphilosophy much from book to book. What does change are the intricate details of the surface\nstory. Wolfe puts a lot of work into developing these and their associated mysteries. I \nwish this could be recognized by those who reflexively react against allusive and \nphilosophical interpretations with the feral defensiveness of a subordinate pack animal.\nThe perceived inferior status is a self-invention. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T13:18:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry has a point, however, in saying that Typhon did not have two penises." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only point made by this observation is that this is meant as a work of art \nnot a photographic portrait. The two penises are clearly a reference to Typhon's\ntwo heads (I think it might be auctorial error on WOlfe's part to give Pas two \nheads, as we all know Typhon's two heads were a deeply kept secret). It may also\nreflect the Typhon family's snake-like nature. Many snakes have two penises and\nmy impression from his work is that Wolfe's zoological knowledge is sufficient \nfor him to know this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This argument is just silly. Why would the artist put in two penises to refer to the two heads, when he has also drawn the two heads, and twice over? \n\nAs for snakes, maybe the inhumi have two penises, and it’s not at all unlikely that the Neighbours and the other large animals of Blue have. But Typhon doesn’t. Severian would have noticed; one imagines he would have found it even more alarming than the heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, there are giant phallic images surrounding Typhon in the painting. \nCampion renders them as trees (Trees as phallic symbols, is this of interest to\nJames and Marc? ;- )). So yes, this is a work of art." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Campion’s painting is largely allegorical, but certain of the items surrounding Typhon are based on the real construction of the Whorl. The “butter yellow” of the taluses is a clear nod from Wolfe to the modern'-day reader that the “taluses” are actually bulldozers. And that is another indication that Campion’s painting, rather than the brothel drape (which is said to be one of several such drapes), is the original." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A work of art depicting Typhon on Urth. The connections to what we learn from \nSeverian are pretty hard to ignore. Should we really think that WOlfe used the \nterm \"nursing an erection\" twice in reference to the same (or a derived) character \nby accident or happenstance, as Gerry is suggesting? Is Wolfe really so oblivious\nto his own previous writing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It actually tells us in the text that it is set on the whorl! “In the original painting, two of Pas’s taluses [..] were still at work upon the whorl.” Campion is showing the culmination of the construction of the Whorl, symbolised by the enthronement of a physical as well as a spiritual Pas. The physical Pas in the original can probably be understood as Typhon. We are not told if he was nude in it, but if he was he only had one penis (again, this is clearly indicated in the text, which contrasts the brothel picture with the original).\n\nAs for the phrase “nursing an erection”, it is not that uncommon, and I see no reason why Wolfe should have attempted to find a circumlocution just for the sake of confounding intentionally obtuse readings. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whorl during Silk's life does not have monarchs sitting on thrones. \nThe rulers of the Whorl are Caldes or Ayuntamientos or Generals who surely \nwould not be caught publicly masturbating as Severian tells us Typhon is willing\nto do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Campion’s painting does not depict the whorl during Silk’s life.\n\n[It probably *does* have monarchs — the Rajan of Whorl-Gaon is surely one, and may well have a throne. But in Gaon they admire Echidna, so I guess public masturbation would be a no-no there. Whether it is permitted or encouraged in some cities, we are not told.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas is a computer program who, whenever he appeared, did so in a screen. I don't \nthink he was sitting in a throne, masturbating in his screen appearances. The \npainting is clearly not inspired by anything occurring on the Whorl. Through the \nSeverian connection and Typhon's depicted status as a throne-sitting monarch, the \npainting clearly depicts a scene from Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the time of Campion’s painting, he may not even have appeared yet, for all we know, though I should imagine he probably had. Campion’s painting is inspired by the construction of the Whorl — it was doubtless commissioned to celebrate it, just as the painting by Blood’s unknown artist was commissioned, long after with absolute clarity that the scene is from the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, Gerry made a mistake here. No big deal. He is right about many things and has\nno need to feel ashamed about this particular misreading. I don't even begrudge him\na bit of pride-salvaging if he would like to continue ignoring the reference to\nSeverian's Typhon encounter and instead argue that WOlfe put the painting into \nhis story to simply to add a splash of color and some gratuitous porn in a brothel. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps that really is how Gerry sees Wolfe as a author. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no reference to Severian — that is an utterly absurd reading. And the statement about “a splash of colour and some gratuitous porn” demonstrates, sadly, a complete inability or unwillingness to interpret a typical example of one of Wolfe’s greatest skills in action. He describes the scene in the brothel — with, indeed, lots of local colour — and at the same time he tells us about events three hundred years before, showing us heavy equipment at work on the whorl, the commissioning of a celebratory painting, and the foundation/reinforcement of the cult of Pas on the Whorl, as the spiritual Pas takes over from the physical Pas/Typhon on his physical throne. Anyone who can read Wolfe can correctly read this short passage.\n\nThis is how Wolfe works as an author. It is a shame that you cannot or will not see it, and instead spend your time grasping at ridiculous irrelevancies in order to promote bizarre and perverse misreadings of Wolfe’s work.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T13:36:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Just disagreeing with Lee's comment that the word \"mandragora\" \ncould only point to Typhon. I don't think any of these word games /necessarily/ \npoint to one thing. You can always find connections to others. Of course, you \nand Lee and others may have reasons for preferring one connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou miscontrue my point, Jerry. In fact I don't think \"mandragora\" can only refer\nto Typhon. I completely think the references to mandrake and occultism and even\nsatanism are there and intentional. My history of posts reflects that. But I do not \nignore that Typhon is also associated with Satan.\n \nI think Wolfe writes in this manner- using a constellation of associated ideas with\ninternal story connections to convey his message. My assertion is that \"mandragora\"\nmust (in my view) refer to Typhon, not that it may *only* (for all readers) refer \nto Typhon.\n \nI think the mandragora is part of a constellation of story elements which help direct \nhow Wolfe wants us to think of Typhon through the arc of the 12 book Sun Series- that\nbeing as a superhumanly gifted, demonic tyrant-deity who sows the seeds of his own \ndestruction when he devotes his efforts to self-indulgence but who has the capacity \nto become a benign, demiurgical Creator when his efforts are so directed. This, of \ncourse, is a parallel to certain lines of gnostic religious philosophy regarding God, \nDevil and creation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oddly enough, it doesn't take me to those questions at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI get the impression you are offended by suggestions that the story takes a reader \nanywhere, specifically (even S. America ;- )). But if you do have a sense of where \nWOlfe's writing takes you, which you have not previously revealed, I am interested in \nhearing about it.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED63D2A.1060907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-30T14:26:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<1322631490.25296.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/2011 12:38 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff\n\nSorry, what's the Levi quotation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This sentence from the occultist Eliphas Levi, which I'd quoted earlier.\n\n\"Some alchemists, impressed by this idea, speculated on the culture of\nthe mandragore, and experimented in the artificial reproduction of a\nsoil sufficiently fruitful and a sun sufficiently active to humanise the said root, and thus create men without the concurrence of the female.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks!\n\n\"A sun sufficiently active to humanize....\" What a suggestive line." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why don't they point to Ymar? The two Biblical references to mandrakes are in connection with Rachel and\nthe maiden in the Song of Songs, both types of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology (or I can find at least one\nsource that says that about each one). I don't think I need to make the last connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, please do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last connection is that Ymar is an anagram of Mary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "d'oh!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't follow this or know the references at\n all. Why Ymar? (I did just find the Rachel ones but don;t know how\n to interpret them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just disagreeing with Lee's comment that the word \"mandragora\" could only point to Typhon. I don't think any of these word games /necessarily/ point to one thing. You can always find connections to others. Of course, you and Lee and others may have reasons for preferring one connection.\n\n\nI meant to add that \"mandragora\" can suggest \"dragoman\". Agia and the jungle guide might both count as dragomans. Maybe some people will like a possible connection between the mandragora and Father Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty \"catholic\" in my tastes when it comes to connections." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or why not the Sleeper? Shakespeare refers to mandragora as a soporific, including in a fairly famous passage from /Othello/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Meaning \"the sleepers\" on the Whorl? Or another sleeper?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was thinking of the god worshiped on Ushas under that name, but any one you want." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Perhaps.\n\nThe quote:\n\nNot poppy, nor mandragora,\nNor all the drowsy syrups of the world,\nShall ever medicine thee to that sweet sleep\nWhich thou owedst yesterday.\nOthello, 3. 3" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or Severian in his first life or two? The most famous quotation about a mandrake starts \"Go and catch a falling star\", which immediately brings to mind the slingers' song, which Wolfe said illuminates--darkly--Severian's past and future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This quotation?:\n\n?Go, and catch a falling star, / Get with child a mandrake root, / Tell me, where all past years are, / Or who cleft the Devil's foot.\n John Donne quotes(English poet, 1572-1631)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Great lines, and of course Severian finds out where past years are. Other connections can easily be made. But I can't say whether Wolfe had it mind or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not necessarily. Maybe we're meant to leave it as a mystery and concentrate on the interaction between Severian and the homunculus.\nI agree. But the Donne quote, if it is a key link, does lead to the image of impregnating a mandrake root, which takes us back to who and why, and what resulted from it.\n\n\nOddly enough, it doesn't take me to those questions at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does it at least take you back to Levi?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED63F2A.5030609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-30T14:35:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/2011 1:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry has a point, however, in saying that Typhon did not have two penises." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only point made by this observation is that this is meant as a work of art\n\nnot a photographic portrait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two penises are clearly a reference to Typhon's\n\ntwo heads (I think it might be auctorial error on WOlfe's part to give Pas two\n\nheads, as we all know Typhon's two heads were a deeply kept secret). It may also\n\nreflect the Typhon family's snake-like nature. Many snakes have two penises and\n\nmy impression from his work is that Wolfe's zoological knowledge is sufficient\n\nfor him to know this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, there are giant phallic images surrounding Typhon in the painting.\n\nCampion renders them as trees (Trees as phallic symbols, is this of interest to\n\nJames and Marc? ;- )). So yes, this is a work of art.\n\n\n\nA work of art depicting Typhon on Urth. The connections to what we learn from\n\nSeverian are pretty hard to ignore. Should we really think that WOlfe used the\n\nterm \"nursing an erection\" twice in reference to the same (or a derived) character\n\nby accident or happenstance, as Gerry is suggesting? Is Wolfe really so oblivious\n\nto his own previous writing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one has suggested that Wolfe is oblivious, though perhaps you could \nread it from Gerry's post. But just because the painting seems to mix a \nparody of Pas with a truer depiction of Typhon does not tell us its \nprovenance with any certainty. \"Connections\" are not always \nhard-wired---I have suggested irony as an explanation, because Wolfe \nuses irony and is always interested in our interpretations of the divine.\n\nIf a pornographer paints a truer picture of God than an official \niconographer, so be it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whorl during Silk's life does not have monarchs sitting on thrones.\n\nThe rulers of the Whorl are Caldes or Ayuntamientos or Generals who surely\n\nwould not be caught publicly masturbating as Severian tells us Typhon is willing\n\nto do.\n\n\n\nPas is a computer program who, whenever he appeared, did so in a screen. I don't\n\nthink he was sitting in a throne, masturbating in his screen appearances. The\n\npainting is clearly not inspired by anything occurring on the Whorl. Through the\n\nSeverian connection and Typhon's depicted status as a throne-sitting monarch, the\n\npainting clearly depicts a scene from Urth.\n\n\n\nSo, Gerry made a mistake here. No big deal. He is right about many things and has\n\nno need to feel ashamed about this particular misreading. I don't even begrudge him\n\na bit of pride-salvaging if he would like to continue ignoring the reference to\n\nSeverian's Typhon encounter and instead argue that WOlfe put the painting into\n\nhis story to simply to add a splash of color and some gratuitous porn in a brothel.\n\nPerhaps that really is how Gerry sees Wolfe as a author.\n\n\n\nBut that's not really my business. I have no interest in \"saving\" people from wasting\n\ntheir time with Gerry. He is surely a good guy at heart and I really don't want people\n\nto ignore him. I no more want to \"censor\" him than he intends to censor the people who\n\npost theories he doesn't like. Gerry and I are both highly appreciative of all the\n\ncontributions and contributors to this list. Thank you. Thank you all. From both of us. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You certainly don;t need to argue with Gerry through me. All I said was \nthat Gerry had a point. Pas's two penises clearly derive from some \nmisunderstanding of Typhon based on an understanding of Pas. Typhon was \na parody of Pas who preceded Pas, because Pas was a *version* of Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED64225.9010308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T14:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (30-11-2011 13:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman \nDavid Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry has a point, however, in saying that Typhon did not have two\npenises." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only point made by this observation is that this is meant as a work\nof art not a photographic portrait. The two penises are clearly a\nreference to Typhon's two heads (I think it might be auctorial error\non WOlfe's part to give Pas two heads, as we all know Typhon's two\nheads were a deeply kept secret). It may also reflect the Typhon\nfamily's snake-like nature. Many snakes have two penises and my\nimpression from his work is that Wolfe's zoological knowledge is\nsufficient for him to know this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This argument is just silly. Why would the artist put in two penises to\nrefer to the two heads, when he has also drawn the two heads, and twice\nover? As for snakes, maybe the inhumi have two penises, and it’s not at\nall unlikely that the Neighbours and the other large animals of Blue\nhave. But Typhon doesn’t. Severian would have noticed; one imagines he\nwould have found it even more alarming than the heads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What snakes actually have is their phallus split in two, and they're only \nable to use one of the halves at a time. While of no consequence to a parody \npainting, it is fundamentally different from the actual doubling we see in \nBlue's wildlife." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED65F8F.7000908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T16:53:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED5737D.7050303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhat do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps, but if your method of proof is to assert that there is an\nalternate interpretation, then you aren't proving anything except that\nthere is an alternate interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nIt can become entangled, no? When you point out actual problems with \nan interpretation and *then* people ask you for an alternative," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately that is not the only way it happens. What very often \nhappens is that someone suggests an explanation of an occurrence that is \nnot explicitly declared or based on irony or allusion, and someone else \nwill respond with:\n\n \"This explanation is a totally unsupported. The truth of this event\n is clearly declared in text [James notes: although actually only\n implied] by this flat half-blind reading of the story that I follow.\n Thus, I have proved that my initial reading is correct and not in\n need of enlightenment because I am eschewing any high literary\n understanding of the events and other literary voodoo.\"\n\n\nThis person is not refuting an explanation AND THEN going on to explain \nhis alternate understanding. He refuting an explanation WITH his \nalternate understanding." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED66607.5060508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T17:21:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED65F8F.7000908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (30-11-2011 16:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhat do you mean by \"wrong\" and \"misled?\" These seem to assume that\nthere is a True Interpretation and all others are wrong, where I think\nthat texts in general and Wolfe's texts in particular are polysemous\nand subject to a multitude of (apparently) contradictory\ninterpretations, all based on the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps, but if your method of proof is to assert that there is an\nalternate interpretation, then you aren't proving anything except that\nthere is an alternate interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nIt can become entangled, no? When you point out actual problems with an\ninterpretation and *then* people ask you for an alternative," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately that is not the only way it happens. What very often happens\nis that someone suggests an explanation of an occurrence that is not\nexplicitly declared or based on irony or allusion, and someone else will\nrespond with:\n\n \"This explanation is a totally unsupported. The truth of this event is\n clearly declared in text [James notes: although actually only implied]\n by this flat half-blind reading of the story that I follow. Thus, I have\n proved that my initial reading is correct and not in need of\n enlightenment because I am eschewing any high literary understanding of\n the events and other literary voodoo.\"\n\nThis person is not refuting an explanation AND THEN going on to explain his\nalternate understanding. He refuting an explanation WITH his alternate\nunderstanding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even in your parody above, your person starts off with 'This explanation is \na totally unsupported'. That's the refuting part, not the eventual Dumb \nInterpretation.\n\nWhat I suggest is that next time you see someone declaring an interpretation \nas totally unsupported without an explanation, you call them on that. \nArguing abstractions may be useful for making general cases - I did it above \nand you do it here -, but general cases only need making if they're not \nobvious. I presented the one above because it seemed to me it wasn't \nobvious. However, I have difficulty seeing how yours isn't - nobody has to \nbe told what's wrong with a dismissal that doesn't present a reason (or \nwhose reason wasn't general knowledge unadressed by the hypothesis)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED66B85.4010002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T17:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED66607.5060508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt doesn't. 'X is wrong' is not the same as 'All but Y are wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nPerhaps, but if your method of proof is to assert that there is an\nalternate interpretation, then you aren't proving anything except that\nthere is an alternate interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nIt can become entangled, no? When you point out actual problems with an\ninterpretation and *then* people ask you for an alternative," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately that is not the only way it happens. What very often \nhappens\nis that someone suggests an explanation of an occurrence that is not\nexplicitly declared or based on irony or allusion, and someone else will\nrespond with:\n\n \"This explanation is a totally unsupported. The truth of this \nevent is\n clearly declared in text [James notes: although actually only \nimplied]\n by this flat half-blind reading of the story that I follow. Thus, \nI have\n proved that my initial reading is correct and not in need of\n enlightenment because I am eschewing any high literary \nunderstanding of\n the events and other literary voodoo.\"\n\nThis person is not refuting an explanation AND THEN going on to \nexplain his\nalternate understanding. He refuting an explanation WITH his alternate\nunderstanding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nEven in your parody above, your person starts off with 'This \nexplanation is a totally unsupported'. That's the refuting part, not \nthe eventual Dumb Interpretation. What I suggest is that next time you \nsee someone declaring an interpretation as totally unsupported without \nan explanation, you call them on that. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that \"calling them on that\" is already documented in several \ndozen threads on this list. It doesn't work, because as I stated, the \nperson believes his interpretation is the default interpretation, argues \nthat is relentlessly, and believes, therefore, that the *existence* of \nhis alternate interpretation is explanation enough that the other is \nunsupported.\n\nActually, it is very rare here that someone offers any theory that is \ncertifiably \"unsupported\". Trying to prove it is is probably a waste of \ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arguing abstractions may be useful for making general cases - I did it \nabove and you do it here -, but general cases only need making if \nthey're not obvious. I presented the one above because it seemed to me \nit wasn't obvious. However, I have difficulty seeing how yours isn't - \nnobody has to be told what's wrong with a dismissal that doesn't \npresent a reason (or whose reason wasn't general knowledge unadressed \nby the hypothesis)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you are recognizing the problem. The problem is that we \nhave two people who are using quite different methods of interpretation \nand one of them is claiming that the other's is not valid or, at least, \nnever valid unless the reading is first credentialed by his own \ninterpretive methods." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED67307.7060809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T18:16:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED66B85.4010002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (30-11-2011 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think you are recognizing the problem. The problem is that we\nhave two people who are using quite different methods of interpretation\nand one of them is claiming that the other's is not valid or, at least,\nnever valid unless the reading is first credentialed by his own\ninterpretive methods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I simply disagree that that's what we have here. Do I have the right? I'm\nsaying that B's view of B's interpretation as valid only comes into question\nas a contrast to B's view of A's interpretation's as not valid. The issue\nare the reasons why B thinks A's interpretation is not valid. If you think\nthe archives are full of theories challenged because they have simpler\nalternatives, I think perhaps you might reread them. They are challenged\nbecause they have problems, and the only way to go forward is to address\nthose problems. For instance, your time travel has the major unstated\nproblem that there appears to be no significant temporal displacement in the\ncertified instances of dream travel we have. On a first approach to that\nproblem, you adduce some discrepancies that seem to exist, such as the ages\nof Horn's and Sinew's children. But that isn't very strong, so you've now\nsuggested that among other things Silk's 'suicide' occurred long before Horn\nbody's death on Green. You're reasoning, trying to find a way for your model\nto work better. That is good. What isn't good is complaining that those who\nsee the exact same problem as you do are merely being obnoxious. You _do_\nknow that if a theory has problems they must be addressed, and saying that\nit's all down to methods and readings only takes you so far." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T18:20:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED67307.7060809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mandragora is the genus of the plant mandrake,\nwhich often has a somewhat man-shaped root. It is also the name of a\ntype of demon. These demons are little dolls given to a sorceror by\nthe Devil for the purpose of consulting \"in time of need\". They are\nthought to be related to the \"/fetish> thought to be related to the \"/fetish\nwhich is nothing else than a dwelling-place made by a shaman or medicine-man\nfor the reception of any wandering spirit who chooses to take up his abode therein.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was aware of these meanings and always found them applicable. The little guy in the jar \nprobably was used as a consultant. But by whom? Which \"sorcerer\"? Severian's autarchial \nmemories make no mention of the Mandragora to him. Perhaps the Mandragora predates the\nautarchs.\n \nDo we have a medicine man or shaman in our story? Two, it would seem- Isangoma and the \nUturuncu, the jungle shaman. Many feel these two represent the same character, Father \nInire. Do we have a sorcerer in the story? Hethor? Ceryx? Are these also the same character? \n \nCeryx is a sorcerer to be found in Typhon's period on Urth. What is his relationship to \nTyphon? Why does he have the same obsession with raising the dead as so many characters \nin Severian's time? In Typhon, do we have the \"Devil\" who provides the sorcerer with a \nMandragora? Perhaps Father Inire started his career as a vizier well before (he installed) \nthe first autarch of the Commonwealth, Ymar.\n \nFWIW, though the jungle shaman supposedly can turn into a tiger, Uturuncu means \"puma\" in \nQuechua. This is also the name of a volcanic mountain in Bolivia. There are two BotNS \ncharacters who have mountainous, volcanic descriptions attributed to them. I don't know\nexactly how Abaia and Erebus (and Typhon) are related to the shaman/Inire. But we might be\nable to make some guesses after observing Tzadkiel, The Mother and Great Scylla in action. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T18:32:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: If you think the archives are full of theories \nchallenged because they have simpler alternatives, I think perhaps you \nmight reread them. They are challenged because they have problems, and \nthe only way to go forward is to address those problems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIs Antonio implying that some theories are problem-free and therefore go\nunchallenged? I'd be interested in see a list of such theories (though I\nsuspect it would end up being a very short and boring list).\n \nConversely, since virtually all theories are challenged, does that lead\nto the conclusion that all theories have problems and ought to be abandoned?\n \nI see no mechanism for \"going forward\" in Antonio's guidelines for the \nproper way of conducting business here. But perhaps I misunderstand him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: You certainly don't need to argue with Gerry through me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, if that is a problem I can try to avoid that in the future. But since\nI am using writing to participate in this forum, I think it is more interesting\nto use literary devices at times, rather than try to maintain the illusion\nthat the bunch of us knuckleheads are actually in a room together, conversing\ndirectly through speech. Keeps things here in the proper perspective of being \nentertainment rather than real world interactions. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED67B37.205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T18:51:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED67307.7060809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/2011 12:16 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf you think\nthe archives are full of theories challenged because they have simpler\nalternatives, I think perhaps you might reread them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is in no way how I have described the challenges.\nHowever, you have _perfectly_ described the way that an unenlightened** \nchallenger (such as I have been describing) sees his own challenges. HIS \nalternative is \"simpler\". Of one's own alternatives are /always/ \nsimpler: Either it does not require a recognition of irony in the text \nor it does not leave problematic questions hanging or something else. It \nis the failure to understand that marks one's approached as \nunenlightened. I'm sure no one creates theories out of a perverse glee \nfor Rube Goldberg constructions.\n\n**\"Unenlightened\" is a term you, Antonio, originally coined. I'm merely \nadopting it so we can use the same terms." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T19:54:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED67B37.205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I'm sure no one creates theories out of a perverse glee \nfor Rube Goldberg constructions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. At least no one who has been a participant in this forum for\nany length of time. Still, accusations of such are a common tactic used\nby a certain contingent to express their emotional frustration and/or\nperhaps to provoke an emotional response when their initial, more scholarly\nattempts at winning an argument fail. \n \nLet's face it- some people have an inherent philosophy to their social \ninteractions in which \"Losing Is Not An Option\". You don't have to be a\nprofessional wrestler to partake in that view of life. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T20:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Lee for pointing out that the memories Severian inherited\nfrom the previous Autarchs make no mention of the Mandragora." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Mandragora is the genus of the plant mandrake,\nwhich often has a somewhat man-shaped root. It is also the name of a\ntype of demon. These demons are little dolls given to a sorceror by\nthe Devil for the purpose of consulting \"in time of need\". They are\nthought to be related to the \"/fetish> thought to be related to the\n\"/fetish\nwhich is nothing else than a dwelling-place made by a shaman or\nmedicine-man\nfor the reception of any wandering spirit who chooses to take up his\nabode therein.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was aware of these meanings and always found them applicable. The little\nguy in the jar\nprobably was used as a consultant. But by whom? Which \"sorcerer\"?\nSeverian's autarchial\nmemories make no mention of the Mandragora to him. Perhaps the Mandragora\npredates the\nautarchs.\n\nDo we have a medicine man or shaman in our story? Two, it would seem-\nIsangoma and the\nUturuncu, the jungle shaman. Many feel these two represent the same\ncharacter, Father\nInire. Do we have a sorcerer in the story? Hethor? Ceryx? Are these also\nthe same character?\n\nCeryx is a sorcerer to be found in Typhon's period on Urth. What is his\nrelationship to\nTyphon? Why does he have the same obsession with raising the dead as so many\ncharacters\nin Severian's time? In Typhon, do we have the \"Devil\" who provides the\nsorcerer with a\nMandragora? Perhaps Father Inire started his career as a vizier well before\n(he installed)\nthe first autarch of the Commonwealth, Ymar.\n\nFWIW, though the jungle shaman supposedly can turn into a tiger, Uturuncu\nmeans \"puma\" in\nQuechua. This is also the name of a volcanic mountain in Bolivia. There are\ntwo BotNS\ncharacters who have mountainous, volcanic descriptions attributed to them. I\ndon't know\nexactly how Abaia and Erebus (and Typhon) are related to the shaman/Inire.\nBut we might be\nable to make some guesses after observing Tzadkiel, The Mother and Great\nScylla in action. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<899D515F326144C2867EF947C6CC99D7@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you Lee for pointing out that the memories Severian inherited\nfrom the previous Autarchs make no mention of the Mandragora." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or of any of the many other things he found in his quarters. They were, however, the quarters of earlier Autarchs, even though they had not been used for centuries.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was aware of these meanings and always found them applicable. The little\nguy in the jar\nprobably was used as a consultant. But by whom? Which \"sorcerer\"?\nSeverian's autarchial\nmemories make no mention of the Mandragora to him. Perhaps the Mandragora\npredates the\nautarchs." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:33:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<899D515F326144C2867EF947C6CC99D7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does it say that anywhere? IIRC it only says that it is the oldest\npart of the Citadel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED6A1AF.30900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:35:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<899D515F326144C2867EF947C6CC99D7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/2011 4:10 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThank you Lee for pointing out that the memories Severian inherited\nfrom the previous Autarchs make no mention of the Mandragora." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or of any of the many other things he found in his quarters. They \nwere, however, the quarters of earlier Autarchs, even though they had \nnot been used for centuries.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do we know this? Is the answer somewhere here:\n\nYet it was impossible that I should occupy a suite other than that \nanciently set aside for\n\nthe autarchs; and impossible too that I should have it refurnished to a \ndegree that would\n\nimply criticism of my predecessors. And if the furniture had more to \nrecommend it to the\n\nmind than to the body, what a delight it was to discover the treasures \nthose same\n\npredecessors had left behind: There were papers relating to matters now \nutterly forgotten\n\nand not always identifiable; mechanical devices ingenious and enigmatic; \na microcosm\n\nthat stirred to life at the warmth of my hands, and whose minute \ninhabitants seemed to\n\ngrow larger and more human as I watched them; a laboratory containing \nthe fabled\n\n\"emerald bench\" and many other things, the most interesting of which was \na mandragora\n\nin spirits.\n\n\n\nOr not? Is the \"most interesting\" mandragora really on the same level of \nsignificance as the \"unidentifiable papers\"? Is Severian supposed to \nhave instant recall of things his predecessors have themselves forgotten?\n\nBut for diplomacy's sake let me edit Lee's comment a bit:\n\nIt appears from the questions Severian puts to the mandragora that he \ndoesn't know who or what it is. From this we may conclude that \"the \nmemories Severian inherited from the previous Autarchs make no mention \nof the Mandragora.\"\n\nIs that better?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<389ECE43AE2F4092A0C328479DB2D76B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:37:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does it say that anywhere? IIRC it only says that it is the oldest\npart of the Citadel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get in.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED6A315.5070602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED67B37.205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/30/2011 12:16 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you think the archives are full of theories challenged because\nthey have simpler alternatives, I think perhaps you might reread\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is in no way how I have described the challenges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No? You couched it in rather judgemental terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, you have _perfectly_ described the way that an\nunenlightened** challenger (such as I have been describing) sees his\nown challenges. HIS alternative is \"simpler\". Of one's own\nalternatives are /always/ simpler: Either it does not require a\nrecognition of irony in the text or it does not leave problematic\nquestions hanging or something else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it does not require a recognition of irony in the text or it does not\nleave problematic questions hanging or something else, then it's simpler\nbecause it does not require a recognition of irony in the text or it\ndoes not leave problematic questions hanging or something else, not\nbecause it's one's own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the failure to understand that marks one's approached as\nunenlightened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Failure to understand what? (Please don't answer 'Precisely.'.)\n\nYou seem to be drawing a distinction between the 'challenges' and that\nwhich they challenge. You seem to be willing to have such a distinction\nwhen it comes to belittle the 'challenges', all the while denying there\nis a distinction other than 'authorship' when it suits your argument. It\nseems. To me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure no one creates theories out of a perverse glee for Rube\nGoldberg constructions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What gives you that certainty?\n\nBut I'm all for Rube Goldberg theories. As long as they _work_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "**\"Unenlightened\" is a term you, Antonio, originally coined. I'm\nmerely adopting it so we can use the same terms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Coined it I may have, but I can't find the reference and I would like to \nin order to understand what made it so memorable. Can you provide it? \n(If not actually, from memory?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T21:51:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<389ECE43AE2F4092A0C328479DB2D76B@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "gotcha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does it say that anywhere? IIRC it only says that it is the oldest\npart of the Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get in.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED6AE9C.7050704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-30T22:30:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/2011 4:51 PM, Larry Miller wrote:\ngotcha.\n\nOn 11/30/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does it say that anywhere? IIRC it only says that it is the oldest\npart of the Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get in.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite. It's here:\n\n\"Yet it was impossible that I should occupy a suite other than that \nanciently set aside for the autarchs....\"\n\nThus the suite is \"that anciently set aside for the autarchs.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED6B275.4010807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T22:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED6A315.5070602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nIf you think the archives are full of theories challenged because\nthey have simpler alternatives, I think perhaps you might reread\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThat is in no way how I have described the challenges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio wrote\nNo? You couched it in rather judgemental terms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how that would matter in regards to whether or not I said \nthat theories are challenged because there are simpler alternatives. The \npoint is, I didn't say it.\nBut, people who cannot disabuse themselves of the idea that their own \ninterpretations are *objectively* the most reasonable, simpler, and \nobvious, and are therefore the DEFAULT theory...these people make that \nclaim all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, you have _perfectly_ described the way that an\nunenlightened** challenger (such as I have been describing) sees his\nown challenges. HIS alternative is \"simpler\". Of one's own\nalternatives are /always/ simpler: Either it does not require a\nrecognition of irony in the text or it does not leave problematic\nquestions hanging or something else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it does not require a recognition of irony in the text or it does not\nleave problematic questions hanging or something else, then it's simpler\nbecause it does not require a recognition of irony in the text or it\ndoes not leave problematic questions hanging or something else, not\nbecause it's one's own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "????? \nAnd a Rube Goldberg contraption is simpler because it only consists of \nunmachined parts. (coo-coo)\nMy actual POINT was that when an alternative is your own, the remaining \ncomplexities are insignificant to you, the simplifications a a great \nmajor improvement.\nIt is your child. The defects have charm.\nYour point is what? Just to have the last word?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is the failure to understand that marks one's approached as\nunenlightened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Failure to understand what? (Please don't answer 'Precisely.'.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is the failure to understand /that one's own alternatives always \nappear simpler/ that marks one's approached as\nunenlightened...that is, lacking in awareness of his own nonobjectivity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "**\"Unenlightened\" is a term you, Antonio, originally coined. I'm\nmerely adopting it so we can use the same terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Coined it I may have, but I can't find the reference and I would like \nto in order to understand what made it so memorable. Can you provide \nit? (If not actually, from memory?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I _believe_ it developed at earliest with a statement from you along the \nlines of \"what makes you so much more enlightened?\"\nYour point at the time seemed to be that describing the terms \"arrogant\" \nand \"smug\" is in and of itself arrogant and smug. Which I then explained \nwas an absurd presumption. So, \"unenlightened\" seems to have developed \nas a less \"judgmental\" term for arrogant/smug. I'm not crazy about it, \nbecause without history, it looks like we're saying there is a certain \nuniversally /enlightened/ approach rather than an approaches that are \nindividually bad. I considered using another term but then thought we \nmight get sidetracked into a discussion of defining terms...which we \nseemed have done anyway.\n\nYou have convinced me, Antonio, I shall go back to using term \"smug\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED6C401.6080406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T00:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED6B275.4010807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(You are welcome to reply with a passionate denial of the assessment I \ngive below of your position and a questioning of the assertions I've \nmade, but as to the first, I doubt there is anything wrong about it, and \nas to the latter this isn't Philosophy and Epistemology 101, so I'll let \nyou have the Last Word if you so wish - if I intended to discuss such \nmatters it wouldn't be here; here their only purpose is to help \nunderstand what is each other's view, which I think has already been done.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAnt?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If you think the archives are full of theories challenged\nbecause they have simpler alternatives, I think perhaps you\nmight reread them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote: That is in no way how I have described the\nchallenges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio wrote No? You couched it in rather judgemental terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how that would matter in regards to whether or not I\nsaid that theories are challenged because there are simpler\nalternatives. The point is, I didn't say it. But, people who cannot\ndisabuse themselves of the idea that their own interpretations are\n*objectively* the most reasonable, simpler, and obvious, and are\ntherefore the DEFAULT theory...these people make that claim all the\ntime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reasonable, simpler and obvious are 3 separate things. And 3 objective\nthings. You seem stuck on a stage where 'reasonable', 'simpler' and\n'obvious' (and 'objective') (and 'default') are Desired Qualities That \nProve Superiority, and you seem to have developed an intense aversion to \ntheir use, which you think you can disavow by claiming that it's all\nsubjective. Well, it's not. Those words have meanings, those meanings\nare precise enough. According to domain, they can also be qualified.\nThus, they do not exist in a 'pure' form. That, however, does not mean\nthey're meaningless catchwords as you'd like to believe and you like to\nassert. But each time you assert it ('one's own ideas are always\n[whatever]'), it's not those concepts that go away or lose weight, it's\nyour position that goes a bit further down the slippery slope.\n\nYes, there are defaults. Sometimes there aren't defaults because the\ncandidate to being default is defective. Being a 'default' is nothing\nspecial. The idea that the 'default' has precedence, if not unique\nauthority, is nothing more than a positivst idea, and positivism was a\n19th century pop-atheist fad. The idea that 'there must be a scientific\nexplanation' and that once a scientific explanation is devised it must\nabsolutely be 'the' correct one is but an extension of that. I won't\neven be the last one to stand by that attitude, I won't stand by it at\nall, but that doesn't mean that there aren't defaults.\n\nI don't know what it was that brought you such a personal antipathy to\nthose concepts. Possibly you've been confronted with them in the past,\npossibly even unjustly, and the way you found to get around it was to\nrelativise them. Well, all is not relative. All is relative, but not to\nthe same degree. Those last two statements are equivalent. This is not\npsychoanalysis, it's clarification of stance. (Form can be deceiving.)\n\nI think I now have a perfect understanding of your position, so you\ndon't have to explain it further. That still doesn't allow me to predict\nwhich behaviour you will consider 'smug', because, if I take your\ncriteria, a given behaviour is smug if it involves a given type of\ninterpretation, but on the other hand one cannot distinguish between\ntypes of interpretations because you adamantly deny that the traits that\ndefine the type in question actually exist. I won't pull a James and say\nthat smug behaviour is that which is contrary to James, because I don't\nthink you view it that way, but it may well be be an accurate predictor\n(now's the time to point out that there are many who have been able to\ndisagree with you in a non-smug way?). Either way, I hope I've\nunderstood enough of it so I can avoid incurring in such a fault. Time\nwill tell. Well, you will tell.\n\nI'm not quite sure I've made my own position entirely clear, nor am I\nsure it is of enough interest to anyone. If anyone wishes clarification\non some given point, feel free to ask.\n\n[There's really nothing below this point that hasn't been said above.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "However, you have _perfectly_ described the way that an\nunenlightened** challenger (such as I have been describing) sees\n his own challenges. HIS alternative is \"simpler\". Of one's own\nalternatives are /always/ simpler: Either it does not require a\nrecognition of irony in the text or it does not leave\nproblematic questions hanging or something else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it does not require a recognition of irony in the text or it\ndoes not leave problematic questions hanging or something else,\nthen it's simpler because it does not require a recognition of\nirony in the text or it does not leave problematic questions\nhanging or something else, not because it's one's own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "????? And a\nRube Goldberg contraption is simpler because it only consists of\nunmachined parts. (coo-coo)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's not (simpler than what?). That you're left to befuddledly argue\nthat is illustrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My actual POINT was that when an alternative is your own, the\nremaining complexities are insignificant to you, the simplifications\n a a great major improvement. It is your child. The defects have\ncharm. Your point is what? Just to have the last word?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I didn't even have a point here. I was trying to understand yours.\nYou have kindly provided it. You had before, but then the rest of your\narguments seemed to point otherwise. Your point in untenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "**\"Unenlightened\" is a term you, Antonio, originally coined. I'm\nmerely adopting it so we can use the same terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Coined it I may have, but I can't find the reference and I would\nlike to in order to understand what made it so memorable. Can you\nprovide it? (If not actually, from memory?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I _believe_ it developed at earliest with a statement from you along\n the lines of \"what makes you so much more enlightened?\" Your point\nat the time seemed to be that describing the terms \"arrogant\" and\n\"smug\" is in and of itself arrogant and smug. Which I then explained\nwas an absurd presumption (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. Well, I think there is a difference between asking someone why do\nthey think they're more enlightened than others, and coining a term\n'unenlightened'. But that is beside the point. You misunderstood my\nremark. All I asked was why did you think you alone had the ability to\nuse such concepts as objectivity (something you feel free to use to\ncondemn others, and free to deny it exists when it doesn't suit your\nargument) or you alone had the ability to view the inherent subjectivity \nin every observation. I don't think that's arrogant on your part, since \nit appears unintentional." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T01:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED6C401.6080406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/2011 4:51 PM, Larry Miller wrote:\ngotcha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Not quite. It's here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Yet it was impossible that I should occupy a suite other than that \nanciently set aside for the autarchs....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus the suite is \"that anciently set aside for the autarchs.\">" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes. If we read carefully, the text more precisely supports larry: that Severian \n\nhas the memories of all the old autarchs evidenced by his knowledge of ancient \n\nautarch words. That Severian finds nothing familiar in the suites set aide for \n\nthe autarchs suggests that no previous autarch ever used the suite. \n\n \n\nThus, larry's conclusion that the contents of the suite, including the mandragora,\n\nmay date back to Typhon's era, is supported. You could argue that Severian just \n\nhappens to remember the words for the suite but just happens to forget the contents. \n\nBut the only purpose of such a toothless assertion would be a desperate attempt to\n\nwin a losing battle.\n\n \n\nWe have Brian's definition of \"mandragora\" referring to shamans and sorcerers. larry\n\ndo you have any views on Father Inire and what he was doing during Typhon's reign? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<580ACE9A656248A8A435D5DA5182DA42@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T02:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. If we read carefully, the text more precisely supports larry: that Severian \nhas the memories of all the old autarchs evidenced by his knowledge of ancient \nautarch words. That Severian finds nothing familiar in the suites set aide for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the autarchs suggests that no previous autarch ever used the suite. \n\nThus, larry's conclusion that the contents of the suite, including the mandragora,\nmay date back to Typhon's era, is supported. You could argue that Severian just \nhappens to remember the words for the suite but just happens to forget the contents. \nBut the only purpose of such a toothless assertion would be a desperate attempt to\nwin a losing battle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian: ?What a delight it was to discover the treasures those same predecessors [the Autarchs] had left behind.\n\nAs for the words, they are kept fresh in the memory of all Autarchs because they unlock many doors, both doors they use regularly, and doors they and their predecessors have not opened for centuries. The contents of rooms unopened for centuries are naturally forgotten; the Old Autarch himself pointed out that only his memories will be vivid in the mind of Severian.\n\nYou are flailing desperately here, Lee. The only cure is to reassess your habit of clutching at some random word or even syllable with no connection to the narrative, then asserting it to be proof of some bizarre secret history whilst ignoring its incompatibility with events, characters and storyline. [In this case, the notion that Typhon would have wished or intended to live on as a pickled homunculus in a jar. We actually know how he lived on. And when he met Severian, he did not ask about the homunculus.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T03:19:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dont think Inire was on Urth during Typhons time. He may have made\nvisits to that time period via his mirrors but IMHO I dont believe he\nstarted taking part in Urths history until after Typhons downfall. I\nwouldnt rule out though that he had a part in elevating Ymar (another\nlowly torturer) to the throne and establishing the line of Autarchs.\nPerhaps these were the purpose of the aforementioned visits?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nOn 11/30/2011 4:51 PM, Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "gotcha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get\nin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Not quite. It's here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Yet it was impossible that I should occupy a suite other than that\nanciently set aside for the autarchs....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus the suite is \"that anciently set aside for the autarchs.\">" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. If we read carefully, the text more precisely supports larry: that\nSeverian\n\nhas the memories of all the old autarchs evidenced by his knowledge of\nancient\n\nautarch words. That Severian finds nothing familiar in the suites set aide\nfor\n\nthe autarchs suggests that no previous autarch ever used the suite.\n\n\n\nThus, larry's conclusion that the contents of the suite, including the\nmandragora,\n\nmay date back to Typhon's era, is supported. You could argue that Severian\njust\n\nhappens to remember the words for the suite but just happens to forget the\ncontents.\n\nBut the only purpose of such a toothless assertion would be a desperate\nattempt to\n\nwin a losing battle.\n\n\n\nWe have Brian's definition of \"mandragora\" referring to shamans and\nsorcerers. larry\n\ndo you have any views on Father Inire and what he was doing during Typhon's\nreign? \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T03:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: I dont think Inire was on Urth during Typhons time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He may have made visits to that time period via his mirrors but IMHO " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dont believe he started taking part in Urths history until after " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhons downfall. I wouldnt rule out though that he had a part in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "elevating Ymar (another lowly torturer) to the throne and establishing " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the line of Autarchs. Perhaps these were the purpose of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aforementioned visits?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOkay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on Urth is\n\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of the right\n\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and quite a \n\nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In this case, the notion that Typhon would have wished or " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "intended to live on as a pickled homunculus in a jar. We actually know " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "how he lived on. And when he met Severian, he did not ask about the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "homunculus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNice try, Gerry, but no. At least you are understanding that Typhon on Urth\n\nsat on a throne and was the subject of the pornographic painting. But your\n\nattempt to play dumb here isn't working. I know you are smart. Smart enough\n\nto know that a body prepared in waiting to receive a host personality needn't\n\nremain as a fetus nor pickled in a jar once the upload has taken place. You \n\nare just pretending to not get it. Why would Typhon ask Severian about the\n\nmandragora? Why would Severian be expected to know about that? Anyway, isn't \n\nTyphon more into telling Severian things than asking? Anyway, nice try. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T04:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think thats part of it yeah. Obviously theres got to be more to to\nthe story than that. What do think about Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: I dont think Inire was on Urth during Typhons time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He may have made visits to that time period via his mirrors but IMHO" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I dont believe he started taking part in Urths history until after" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhons downfall. I wouldnt rule out though that he had a part in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "elevating Ymar (another lowly torturer) to the throne and establishing" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the line of Autarchs. Perhaps these were the purpose of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aforementioned visits?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on Urth is\n\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of the right\n\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and quite a\n\nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In this case, the notion that Typhon would have wished or" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "intended to live on as a pickled homunculus in a jar. We actually know" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "how he lived on. And when he met Severian, he did not ask about the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "homunculus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice try, Gerry, but no. At least you are understanding that Typhon on Urth\n\nsat on a throne and was the subject of the pornographic painting. But your\n\nattempt to play dumb here isn't working. I know you are smart. Smart enough\n\nto know that a body prepared in waiting to receive a host personality\nneedn't\n\nremain as a fetus nor pickled in a jar once the upload has taken place. You\n\nare just pretending to not get it. Why would Typhon ask Severian about the\n\nmandragora? Why would Severian be expected to know about that? Anyway,\nisn't\n\nTyphon more into telling Severian things than asking? Anyway, nice try. \t\t \t\n \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322717169.71024.YahooMailNeo@web114702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T05:26:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nJerry Friedman: Just disagreeing with Lee's comment that the word \"mandragora\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "could only point to Typhon. I don't think any of these word games /necessarily/ \npoint to one thing. You can always find connections to others. Of course, you \nand Lee and others may have reasons for preferring one connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You miscontrue my point, Jerry. In fact I don't think \"mandragora\" can only refer\nto Typhon. I completely think the references to mandrake and occultism and even\nsatanism are there and intentional. My history of posts reflects that. But I do not \nignore that Typhon is also associated with Satan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe writes in this manner- using a constellation of associated ideas with\ninternal story connections to convey his message. My assertion is that \"mandragora\"\nmust (in my view) refer to Typhon, not that it may *only* (for all readers) refer \nto Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Got it. I disagree with that too. Unless you're just saying you're certain that it refers to Typhon, which I can't argue with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Leaving the question of Typhon's alien nature aside for now, the Mandragora seems \nalmost indisputable proof of Typhon's potential to be cloned or downloaded into a\nnew body in some manner. There is nothing dragon-like about the fetus in the bottle.\nWhat possible reason is there for Wolfe to call it \"Mandragora\" if not to refer to \nTyphon, the only other reference to a man-dragon there is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I was disagreeing with. I took your question to be \nrhetorical (even to the lack of a question mark), since you were talking about \"almost indisputable proof\". In that case you appeared to be \nsaying the only possible reason for Wolfe to call it a mandragora was to refer to Typhon. I don't think I misconstrued your statement.\n\n\nIf your posting history shows that you've seen other reasons as well, I'm afraid I'd forgotten them (or \nnever saw them--I've been skipping lots of posts lately and have at other times too).\n\nIn a tetralogy of hundreds of thousands of words, chance verbal \nconnections are inevitable. No author in the human race (to which so many of my favorite authors belong) can possibly anticipate every \nconnection a reader might make and write the book so as to forestall it. The evidence for this is that you can always find more connections, such as the ones I suggested to Ymar, the Sleeper, Severian, and the jungle guide. So connections can occur by accident. If you take the approach of selecting the ones that make for a reading that satisfies you, you're very likely to be selecting some that occurred by accident. Of course that may be all right with you. To me it's very far from \"almost indisputable proof\" of the connection, still farther from proof of an idea based on the connection (such as that Typhon could be downloaded into a new body)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the mandragora is part of a constellation of story elements which help direct \nhow Wolfe wants us to think of Typhon through the arc of the 12 book Sun Series- that\nbeing as a superhumanly gifted, demonic tyrant-deity who sows the seeds of his own \ndestruction when he devotes his efforts to self-indulgence but who has the capacity \nto become a benign, demiurgical Creator when his efforts are so directed. This, of \ncourse, is a parallel to certain lines of gnostic religious philosophy regarding God, \nDevil and creation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, I have very grave doubts that Wolfe had any parts of the Short and Long Sun in mind before the New Sun was finished. Otherwise I can see what you're saying about Typhon--but not the mandragora." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oddly enough, it doesn't take me to those questions at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get the impression you are offended by suggestions that the story takes a reader \nanywhere," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "specifically (even S. America ;- ))." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not offended, though I dislike statements that can be greatly improved by qualifying them.\n\n\"For all real numbers x, x/x = 1.\" --false\n\"For all real numbers x except zero, x/x = 1.\" --true\n\"We all agree that the Commonwealth's continent is an analog of South America.\" --false\n\"We all agree that the Commonwealth's continent has many resemblances to South America, but differs in at least some details.\" --probably true" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if you do have a sense of where \nWOlfe's writing takes you, which you have not previously revealed, I am interested in \nhearing about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing I haven't previously revealed.\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n\nP. S. Not to mislead anyone on a trivial point--Chesterton isn't one of my favorite authors, though I do like \"The human race, to which so many of my readers belong...\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED77C7F.7010809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-01T13:09:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/2011 8:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOn 11/30/2011 4:51 PM, Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "gotcha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He talks about his predecessors, and uses the magic Autarch words to get in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Not quite. It's here:\n\"Yet it was impossible that I should occupy a suite other than that\nanciently set aside for the autarchs....\"\nThus the suite is \"that anciently set aside for the autarchs.\">" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. If we read carefully, the text more precisely supports larry: that Severian\n\nhas the memories of all the old autarchs evidenced by his knowledge of ancient\n\nautarch words. That Severian finds nothing familiar in the suites set aide for\n\nthe autarchs suggests that no previous autarch ever used the suite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. I think they are unfamiliar, for the most part, because they are \ndull and therefore forgotten. Severian as much as says so. The \nhomonculus stands out because it is the \"most interesting.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, larry's conclusion that the contents of the suite, including the mandragora,\n\nmay date back to Typhon's era, is supported. You could argue that Severian just\n\nhappens to remember the words for the suite but just happens to forget the contents.\n\nBut the only purpose of such a toothless assertion would be a desperate attempt to\n\nwin a losing battle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The words for the suite would be universal for all autarchal suites, \nwouldn't they? I am not sure what battle you mean. But I agree that the \nsuite has not been much used since the first autarchs. The decor and \nfurnishings are plainly space-age and have \"Typhonic era\" written all \nover them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T13:36:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED77C7F.7010809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: I think thats part of it yeah. Obviously theres got to be more to to\nthe story than that. What do think about Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite a bit, actually. And it can get complicated. As Severian is the central character\nof the main narrative, I think Inire is the central character of the subtext (perhaps\nwe can frame it as Autarch Severian inhabiting the public House Absolute while mysterious\nvizier Inire inhabits the Secret House).\n \nI can provide whatever details you are interested in, but my view of Inire is based on \nthe principle that when Wolfe uses a mythological name in the Sun Series and leaves out\ncrucial information regarding that character, the gaps can be filled by studying \nmythology. And in the past 10 years Gene Wolfe has forced me to do a lot of studying.\n \nIf it is understood that the name \"Inire\" is derived from an epithet of Faunus (Pan),\nthe resulting connection to Dionysus provides a connection to the whole Sun Series\nstory and a mythological framework which stretches from the primeval Greek gods to the \ngnostic precursors of Christianity. That's my view, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: ...Unless you're just saying you're certain that it refers to Typhon, \nwhich I can't argue with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that's really what I was saying. Not \"only\" to Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If your posting history shows that you've seen other reasons as well, I'm afraid I'd forgotten \nthem (or never saw them--I've been skipping lots of posts lately and have at other times too)..\n..Not offended, though I dislike statements that can be greatly improved by qualifying them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUnderstood and agreed, Jerry. I am currently in a phase of posting fairly frequently so perhaps\nit can be understandable to you why I might inadvertently lean toward taking a short cut and skip \nstatement qualifications I have made so many times in other recent posts. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T14:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The words for the suite would be universal for all autarchal suites, \nwouldn't they? I am not sure what battle you mean. But I agree that the \nsuite has not been much used since the first autarchs. The decor and \nfurnishings are plainly space-age and have \"Typhonic era\" written all \nover them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question on the secret words. I was always under the impression that there was a\ncomplex collection of words which were unique to each Autarchial gateway to secret \nplaces.\n \nIt would be more efficient if there was only one word for all of them. But in UotNS, on\nFlood Day, when Severian is in the secret passage which takes him to the throne room (and\nallows him to encounter his mother and Agia (the assassin), he notes that many Autarchial\nlovers were given the secret words to allow trysts and those lovers gave the words to their\nown paramours, and so on. Thecla's cadre having access to the Antechamber supports the idea \nthat some of the secret words were given out, and thus it would be better to have distinct \nwords for each secret portal.\n\nYes, I don't think we are really given enough information to know for sure if any autarchs\nhad used that suite. We know it wasn't used much and, as you say, the information we do get \nsupports larry's theory that the Mandragora and the rest date back to Typhon's time.\n \nPlease be understanding of my personal style. In here and in the real world it is part of\nmy personality to address people in the manner in which they prefer to be addressed. I \nrespond to most people here in a cordial and scholarly fashion because that's what they like.\n \nI respond to Gerry in a belligerent, carping, condescending tone because that's what he\nlikes. Thus the reference to \"battle\". I don't really enjoy writing that way, but I am \nwilling to adopt Gerry's tone and tactics when responding to him, in consideration of his \nfeelings. I take pride in being a good host and I don't want Gerry to feel unwelcome here\njust because his communication style differs from others. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T14:20:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I dont think Inire was on Urth during Typhons time. \nHe may have made visits to that time period via his mirrors but IMHO \nI dont believe he started taking part in Urths history until after \nTyphons downfall. I wouldnt rule out though that he had a part in \nelevating Ymar (another lowly torturer) to the throne and establishing \nthe line of Autarchs. Perhaps these were the purpose of the \naforementioned visits?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t recall us being told anything much about Inire’s history, one way or the other. Clearly he has been influential for some considerable time when Severian ascends to the throne. My *feel* for the matter, and it is only that, is that Inire has been around since about the time of the Old Autarch (who also went to Yesod) and maybe a bit before. Previously to that, no Autarch since Ymar went to Yesod, IIRC. It would make sense if Inire came along to help and advise around this time now that it looks like the New Sun is finally becoming a real possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on Urth is\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of the right\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and quite a \nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be my view also, and I cannot think of any actions or statements by Inire that would tend to undermine it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In this case, the notion that Typhon would have wished or \nintended to live on as a pickled homunculus in a jar. We actually know \nhow he lived on. And when he met Severian, he did not ask about the \nhomunculus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice try, Gerry, but no. At least you are understanding that Typhon on Urth\nsat on a throne and was the subject of the pornographic painting. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think everyone on the list can clearly see how nonsensical that claim is. Why do you keep posting this kind of stuff?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But your\nattempt to play dumb here isn't working. I know you are smart. Smart enough\nto know that a body prepared in waiting to receive a host personality needn't\nremain as a fetus nor pickled in a jar once the upload has taken place. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so? Severian spoke to the homunculus, and all it wanted was to die; it even tried to provoke Severian into killing it, IIRC. It had no hope for any other sort of life. What evidence have you for the above speculation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You \nare just pretending to not get it. Why would Typhon ask Severian about the\nmandragora? Why would Severian be expected to know about that? Anyway, isn't \nTyphon more into telling Severian things than asking? Anyway, nice try. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Admittedly, my point that about him not asking was weak. Fortunately, it is unnecessary given the overwhelming lack of evidence for your case, and the reasonably solid arguments against it, such as above, and the profound absence of anything that would require such a convoluted explanation.\n\nIt’s not entirely unlikely, though, that Wolfe would have had Typhon say something if he had intended for some reason that the homunculus in a jar in a chamber belonging to ancient Autarchs was actually intended as a body for Typhon to be downloaded into. Severian comes from the Citadel; Wolfe could have had Typhon say something along the lines of “I left some things behind there...” and added some other clue that would be recognisable by alert readers.\n\nBut that’s all irrelevant anyway. As far as I can see your only “evidence” for this latest ridiculous hypothesis is that the term Wolfe uses for the homunculus, a fairly standard term for such things insofar as such terms may be standard, can be transformed by a series of semantically empty puns into some connection with a mythological monster whose name Typhon bears. That’s about the size of it, isn’t it? \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7A52DE7C08924FC88D0CC05BB06DD2AC@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T14:47:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good question on the secret words. I was always under the impression that there was a\ncomplex collection of words which were unique to each Autarchial gateway to secret \nplaces.\n \nIt would be more efficient if there was only one word for all of them. But in UotNS, on\nFlood Day, when Severian is in the secret passage which takes him to the throne room (and\nallows him to encounter his mother and Agia (the assassin), he notes that many Autarchial\nlovers were given the secret words to allow trysts and those lovers gave the words to their\nown paramours, and so on. Thecla's cadre having access to the Antechamber supports the idea \nthat some of the secret words were given out, and thus it would be better to have distinct \nwords for each secret portal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no reason to suppose either that there is one word for all, or that each portal has its own word. Something in between is most probable. In any case, one fact we do know is that Severian did indeed know the words for the ancient suite. [Perhaps it it had been used more often, the password would have been changed occasionally.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I don't think we are really given enough information to know for sure if any autarchs\nhad used that suite. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except the bit where Severian tells us they used the suite. Of course he could have been wrong and they just stored a lot of stuff there, and obviously there’s no proof that they didn’t inherit some stuff from Typhon whether they used it or not, just as some of the books in the library undoubtedly date from Typhon’s time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know it wasn't used much and, as you say, the information we do get \nsupports larry's theory that the Mandragora and the rest date back to Typhon's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The information we get is that it was ancient, and the decor is described. Does anyone know if the decor in Typhon’s time is described in Urth (and Typhon’s quarters in the mountains), and whether it matches the suite? If not, the information supports only the idea that the suite and its contents are ancient. On the other hand, if for example chairs were typically used in Typhon’s time, we would know that the suite was furnished long after.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12D68FF8-AD31-4B8B-AD74-763629674B61@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T15:10:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/01, ?s 14:20, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on \nUrth is\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of \nthe right\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and \nquite a\nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would be my view also, and I cannot think of any actions or \nstatements by Inire that would tend to undermine it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be the devil's advocate, but I think that is clearly the \ndefault, simple, surface interpretation, which cries out loud for an \nintricate alternative. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D813C0F-B427-4BDA-B580-A4D41059A44C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T15:16:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<7A52DE7C08924FC88D0CC05BB06DD2AC@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/01, ?s 14:47, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The information we get is that it was ancient, and the decor is \ndescribed. Does anyone know if the decor in Typhon’s time is descri \nbed in Urth (and Typhon’s quarters in the mountains), and whether it \n matches the suite? If not, the information supports only the idea \nthat the suite and its contents are ancient. On the other hand, if \nfor example chairs were typically used in Typhon’s time, we would kn \now that the suite was furnished long after." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the general view on the development of technolgy after Typhon? \nAt first sight, it only went downhill from there; could the islands \nleft have seen local progress? Either way I don't see those as a \nsource of refinements to the Autarchial chambers. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED79B3B.4090802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-01T15:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<12D68FF8-AD31-4B8B-AD74-763629674B61@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/2011 10:10 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/12/01, ?s 14:20, \"Gerry Quinn\" > escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Okay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on \nUrth is\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of the \nright\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and \nquite a\nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would be my view also, and I cannot think of any actions or \nstatements by Inire that would tend to undermine it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be the devil's advocate, but I think that is clearly the \ndefault, simple, surface interpretation, which cries out loud for an \nintricate alternative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or at least some development. One can certainly imagine variations on \n\"groom\" and \"support.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED79EA6.6040206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-01T15:35:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/2011 9:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman\nGood question on the secret words. I was always under the impression that there was a complex collection of words which were unique to each Autarchial gateway to secret places." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be more efficient if there was only one word for all of them. But in UotNS, on Flood Day, when Severian is in the secret passage which takes him to the throne room (and allows him to encounter his mother and Agia (the assassin), he notes that many Autarchial lovers were given the secret words to allow trysts and those lovers gave the words to their own paramours, and so on. Thecla's cadre having access to the Antechamber supports the idea that some of the secret words were given out, and thus it would be better to have distinct words for each secret portal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no reason to suppose either that there is one word for all,\nor that each portal has its own word. Something in between is most\nprobable. In any case, one fact we do know is that Severian did indeed\nknow the words for the ancient suite. [Perhaps it it had been used\nmore often, the password would have been changed occasionally.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere in between is my best guess as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, I don't think we are really given enough information to know for sure if any autarchs had used that suite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except the bit where Severian tells us they used the suite. Of course\nhe could have been wrong and they just stored a lot of stuff there,\nand obviously there’s no proof that they didn’t inherit some stuff\nfrom Typhon whether they used it or not, just as some of the books in\nthe library undoubtedly date from Typhon’s time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don;t know how may used it. It may have been few." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We know it wasn't used much and, as you say, the information we do get\nsupports larry's theory that the Mandragora and the rest date back\nto Typhon's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The information we get is that it was ancient, and the decor is\ndescribed. Does anyone know if the decor in Typhon’s time is described\nin Urth (and Typhon’s quarters in the mountains), and whether it\nmatches the suite? If not, the information supports only the idea that\nthe suite and its contents are ancient. On the other hand, if for\nexample chairs were typically used in Typhon’s time, we would know\nthat the suite was furnished long after." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Including the chairs, which sound like beanbag chairs from the 1970s,\nthe furnishings are plainly late 20th century and later, with what seem\nto be curved computer desks, fabric stretched across plastic skeletons,\nand so on.\n\nSeverian's definition of a chair is going to be different from and\nprobably narrower than ours, so I think to say there are no chairs\nbecause Severian said so is to believe Severian a bit naively. Of course\nthere is seating." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5394EC9FA44C4E5C93DCF293FCDB8F53@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T15:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<8D813C0F-B427-4BDA-B580-A4D41059A44C@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: entonio at gmail.com \n\nNo dia 2011/12/01, ?s 14:47, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The information we get is that it was ancient, and the decor is \ndescribed. Does anyone know if the decor in Typhon’s time is descri \nbed in Urth (and Typhon’s quarters in the mountains), and whether it \nmatches the suite? If not, the information supports only the idea \nthat the suite and its contents are ancient. On the other hand, if \nfor example chairs were typically used in Typhon’s time, we would kn \now that the suite was furnished long after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the general view on the development of technolgy after Typhon? \nAt first sight, it only went downhill from there; could the islands \nleft have seen local progress? Either way I don't see those as a \nsource of refinements to the Autarchial chambers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think tech went downhill, but I don’t see it as relevant to the decor of the chambers, which will be affected more by fashion except for the absence of high tech items. \nIn this case we are told the ancient chambers had no chairs, only intricately fashioned cushions. But cushions and chairs are surely available options in all non-Arctic societies from the Bronze Age onwards, so tech level doesn’t really matter, and the use of cushions rather than chairs tells us nothing about it.\nThe absence of chairs, however, tells us that the chamber was furnished at a time when chairs were unfashionable. If we were told that Typhon’s quarters in Urth were furnished only with cushions, it would be a strong suggestion that the chamber came from this time. On the other hand, if people (especially the upper classes) normally sat on chairs or benches in Typhon’s time, we would have an indication that the chambers were furnished some time later.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T16:07:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<5394EC9FA44C4E5C93DCF293FCDB8F53@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don’t recall us being told anything much about Inire’s history, \none way or the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't fault you for your lack of curiosity regarding this omission, Gerry. \nBut perhaps you have enough empathy for the differences in thinking of others that \nyou can see why others might wonder why left Inire's origins such a mystery and \nconsider that there is a solution provided, though it isn't so obvious as to slap \nyou on the face. Entonio, below, is an example of this alternate way of thinking\nwhich involves curiosity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think everyone on the list can clearly see how nonsensical that claim is. \nWhy do you keep posting this kind of stuff?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because you like it and keep responding to it and I want to make you feel welcome and\nuseful here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: Not to be the devil's advocate, but I think that is clearly the \ndefault, simple, surface interpretation, which cries out loud for an \nintricate alternative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn asking deeper questions regarding Typhon, Inire and Hethor you are indeed acting\nas devil's advocate on more than one level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Or at least some development. One can certainly imagine variations on \n\"groom\" and \"support.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. In my view, Father Inire is more interested in Severian's powers of healing and \nresurrection than his bringing a New Sun. Ushas doesn't seem a particular friendly\nand welcoming place for Father Inire and his works, eh wot?\n \nMoreover the diabolical nature of the dark, nasty versions of resurrection and immortality\nwe are exposed to in the story via Vodalus, Hildegren, The Cumaean, witches, Baldanders, \nthe old Autarch, khaibits, the Old Leech and Ceryx all have threads of connection. Trace \nthese back to the source and I think you'll find that all roads lead to (Roman named) Inire.\n \nSeverian may not be a \"Christ-figure\" but it is hard to deny he has Christ-like powers. I\nthink it makes sense for a Christian author to create a world in which pagan, gnostic\nsorts of deity-beings are covetous of such powers. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<868264E5C90F4AC88724EF6F94A3A6D5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T17:24:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don’t recall us being told anything much about Inire’s history, \none way or the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't fault you for your lack of curiosity regarding this omission, Gerry. \nBut perhaps you have enough empathy for the differences in thinking of others that \nyou can see why others might wonder why left Inire's origins such a mystery and \nconsider that there is a solution provided, though it isn't so obvious as to slap \nyou on the face. Entonio, below, is an example of this alternate way of thinking\nwhich involves curiosity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I merely state it as a fact: there are few if any indications that Inire is not who he appears to be. The same applies to many other characters. Wolfe rarely tells us more than he needs about the history of any character, so the absence of a detailed history is not in itself suspicious. If there is some evidence, I would certainly not reject it out of hand. I have not thus far seen any such plausible, evidence-based theory proposed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think everyone on the list can clearly see how nonsensical that claim is. \nWhy do you keep posting this kind of stuff?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because you like it and keep responding to it and I want to make you feel welcome and\nuseful here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insisting on the truth of plainly ridiculous theories is worthless noise that debases the list. You should be embarrassed about the issue of the painting, because it shows how poorly you have read and understood Wolfe, at least in this instance. Those inclined to be interested in your other theories must surely have taken note. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Entonio: Not to be the devil's advocate, but I think that is clearly the \n > default, simple, surface interpretation, which cries out loud for an \n > intricate alternative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In asking deeper questions regarding Typhon, Inire and Hethor you are indeed acting\nas devil's advocate on more than one level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Or at least some development. One can certainly imagine variations on \n\"groom\" and \"support.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. In my view, Father Inire is more interested in Severian's powers of healing and \nresurrection than his bringing a New Sun. Ushas doesn't seem a particular friendly\nand welcoming place for Father Inire and his works, eh wot?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunate then, perhaps, that there is little evidence that he lives to see it, or expects to. But in any case, he could doubtless retire to the stars if he wished, his work done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover the diabolical nature of the dark, nasty versions of resurrection and immortality\nwe are exposed to in the story via Vodalus, Hildegren, The Cumaean, witches, Baldanders, \nthe old Autarch, khaibits, the Old Leech and Ceryx all have threads of connection. Trace \nthese back to the source and I think you'll find that all roads lead to (Roman named) Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In your mind, everything leads to Inire. Others will require evidence rather than bald assertion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian may not be a \"Christ-figure\" but it is hard to deny he has Christ-like powers. I\nthink it makes sense for a Christian author to create a world in which pagan, gnostic\nsorts of deity-beings are covetous of such powers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A Christian or non-Christian author might create many kinds of worlds. It requires evidence to show that a given world created by a Christian author is one of them.\n\nBy all means, demonstrate how the secret history of Inire is described in the text. I am sure we would all be very interested in such a demonstration. So far, you haven’t provided one. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T19:25:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<868264E5C90F4AC88724EF6F94A3A6D5@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think everyone on the list can clearly see how nonsensical that claim is.. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those inclined to be interested in your other theories must surely have taken note... \nOthers will require evidence rather than bald assertion... \nI am sure we would all be very interested in such a demonstration. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry, Gerry, my Gerry. Over and over you make reference to other people on this list. \nAs though I care one whit about them! I have only one audience member I really care about.\nHe is quite devoted and tireless in his attention to me and I reciprocate by giving him\nwhat he wants. My passion and longing...ahem, well. Anyway.. Gerry would you consider \nhaving a beer one night? Maybe some billiards or darts? We could discuss Wolfe.. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T19:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "<4ED79B3B.4090802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the most important clue that Wolfe gives us regarding Inire is\nhis letter. In the letter he mentions his \"cousins\" and says that it\nwill not be long before they side not only with humanity but with\n\"us\". Who are these cousins? And why are they so reluctant to side\nwith humanity? Who does the us refer to (Inire and Severian? The\nCommonwealth?)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/1/2011 10:10 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 2011/12/01, ?s 14:20, \"Gerry Quinn\" > escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Okay, so if I understand your view correctly, Inire's purpose on\nUrth is\nto groom and support autarchs, with the eventually ascension of the\nright\none to New Sun status? I think this jibes with Borski's view and\nquite a\nfew others on this list (my own view differs)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That would be my view also, and I cannot think of any actions or\nstatements by Inire that would tend to undermine it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not to be the devil's advocate, but I think that is clearly the\ndefault, simple, surface interpretation, which cries out loud for an\nintricate alternative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or at least some development. One can certainly imagine variations on\n\"groom\" and \"support.\"\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T20:22:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "larry miller: I think the most important clue that Wolfe gives us regarding \nInire is his letter. In the letter he mentions his \"cousins\" and says that it\nwill not be long before they side not only with humanity but with\n\"us\". Who are these cousins? And why are they so reluctant to side\nwith humanity? Who does the us refer to (Inire and Severian? The\nCommonwealth?)?\n\nExcellent observations and questions larry. I think the letter is our best clue\nto Father Inire. Second best is Severian's Domnina/mirror story and the rest are\nincidental, unless you accept that we see disguised versions of him. Everything in\nthe letter (and Domnina story) is drenched with important information about this\nguy.\n \nMost agree that Father Inire (and the Cumaean) are cacogens; aliens not from Urth.\nSo who are their \"cousins\"? Cousin implies a sibling-like relationship, once or twice\nremoved. We aren't shown that many aliens on Urth. Who fits that description best? \nThe alzabo? The notule or salamander?\n \nWell, I'm being silly. The text of UotNS makes it pretty clear that it is the hierodules\nwho are being refered to as cousins. The Baldanders/Talos conversations rather clearly\ndescribe B, F and O as reluctant helpers of humanity. \n \nInvoking the religio-mythological connection, who would be the \"once or twice removed\" \nrelatives of angels? As I see it, removed from heaven= fallen. I think we can expect \nthat fallen angels would be, in many ways, the opposite of angels. B and F are tall, \nInire and Cumaean are short. B and F are young and beautiful, Inire and Cumaean are \nold and ugly. B and F are careful to minimize their interactions with humanity.\nInire and the Cumaean get right into the thick of things- ugly things like war and\nnecromancy and artificial beautification.\n \nAnyway, what Inire hopes to get from his \"cousins\" are more weapons. This is made clear \nfrom the letter and Inire's obsession with winning the war with the Ascians. When he\nsays \"us\" he may mean Inire and Severian. He may mean the Commonwealth. It doesn't\nmatter. Think of it from Father Inire's perspective. He gets a new Autarch every few\ndecades but he remains in his position as \"humble servant\" for 1000+ years. Who is really \nbenefitting when the Autarch and the Commonwealth triumph? Father Inire. \n \nB, F and O seem to have higher goals in mind than winning wars. Inire, Cumaean and Barbatus \nand Famulimus may share Roman names, as cousins might be expected to do, but their physical, \nbehavioral and lifespan differences must mean something. We may be tempted to think of Inire \nas a wise, benign, humble sort of servant to Severian. But if we read Inire's letter and the \nstory of Domnina carefully we are shown disturbing flaws in his character. Wolfe marks Father\nInire's chamber with a monstrous (\"teratoid\") symbol. Should we ignore it? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-01T22:51:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire [was: Pike's ghost]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm being silly. The text of UotNS makes it pretty clear that it is the hierodules\nwho are being refered to as cousins. The Baldanders/Talos conversations rather clearly\ndescribe B, F and O as reluctant helpers of humanity. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, it seems likely that these are the cousins in question. Reluctantly or not, they seem willing to help both humanity and others; Severian interrupts one of their visits to the room where Baldanders vivisects human women. As interstellar arms dealers, if that is one of their roles on Urth, they also apparently do not choose sides. They seem to take the view that conflict leads to progress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Invoking the religio-mythological connection, who would be the \"once or twice removed\" \nrelatives of angels? As I see it, removed from heaven= fallen. I think we can expect \nthat fallen angels would be, in many ways, the opposite of angels. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This angle would seem to require that you identify angels. You mean the interstellar arms dealers, right? Would an angel say: \"Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have you not thought it might be something more?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B and F are tall, \nInire and Cumaean are short. B and F are young and beautiful, Inire and Cumaean are \nold and ugly. B and F are careful to minimize their interactions with humanity.\nInire and the Cumaean get right into the thick of things- ugly things like war and\nnecromancy and artificial beautification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Hierodules are supplying weapons to both sides (of course we’re not certain of that, I think — perhaps some other group of cacogens is supplying them, in which case it might be *they* who are Inire’s cousins), they would seem to have a worse claim on our sort of morality than Inire. The Cumaean does a little necromancy, but the artificial beautification was the work of the Hierodules? pal Talos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, what Inire hopes to get from his \"cousins\" are more weapons. This is made clear \nfrom the letter and Inire's obsession with winning the war with the Ascians. When he\nsays \"us\" he may mean Inire and Severian. He may mean the Commonwealth. It doesn't\nmatter. Think of it from Father Inire's perspective. He gets a new Autarch every few\ndecades but he remains in his position as \"humble servant\" for 1000+ years. Who is really \nbenefitting when the Autarch and the Commonwealth triumph? Father Inire. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any evidence that Inire has been around for 1000 years, or anything like it? And if he knows that Severian will bring the New Sun, he doesn’t apparently intend to do anything to stop it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B, F and O seem to have higher goals in mind than winning wars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, it appears they don’t care who lives or dies so long as human knowledge advances. They would willing have worked simultaneously with Josef Mengele and the Manhattan Project." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire, Cumaean and Barbatus \nand Famulimus may share Roman names, as cousins might be expected to do, but their physical, \nbehavioral and lifespan differences must mean something. We may be tempted to think of Inire \nas a wise, benign, humble sort of servant to Severian. But if we read Inire's letter and the \nstory of Domnina carefully we are shown disturbing flaws in his character. Wolfe marks Father\nInire's chamber with a monstrous (\"teratoid\") symbol. Should we ignore it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No more than we should ignore the hideous masks worn by Barbatus and co., I suppose.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T01:13:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As interstellar arms dealers, if that is one of their (hierodule) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "roles on Urth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAgreed, it is one of their roles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "also apparently do not choose sides. They seem to take the view that conflict " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "leads to progress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, they might choose Severian over Baldanders. Isn't fully clear. But they\n\ndo clearly value conflict. The hammer, anvil and tongs of warfare are tools used \n\nto forge humanity. Let's not forget that violence and conflict instigated by \n\nhiero-types was a primary driver of the events on Yesod (not to mention the Ship)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This angle would seem to require that you identify angels. You mean the interstellar " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "arms dealers, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nCorrect. When I say angels, I mean the Bibical kind not those found on Christmas cards.\n\nThink Angel of Death slaying Egyptian children, Cherubim with flaming sword guarding\n\nEden. The four archangels leading the Hebrew army to victory on the battlefield. Uriel,\n\nMichael, Raphael and good old Gabriel (Dr. Talos' role) on the frontlines, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would an angel say: \"Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have you not thought " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it might be something more?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think the answer to that is obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Hierodules are supplying weapons to both sides (of course we’re not certain of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that, I think — perhaps some other group of cacogens is supplying them, in which case " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it might be *they* who are Inire’s cousins), they would seem to have a worse claim on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "our sort of morality than Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might have some substance if you base your hyphothetical \"other group\" on some \n\nunmentioned level of Biblical angels or something like that. Otherwise, they are just \n\na non-textual Gerry invention or extrapolation. Nothing wrong with that I guess.\n\n \n\nAs far as angelic morality, you've already explained it in your argument above. Neither\n\nangels nor God are subject to judgement by human morality. They are higher beings and\n\nhave their own \"mysterious ways\" to justify what they do. They act as a scientist acts\n\ninjecting carcinogens into thousands of animals and dissecting them for a higher cause.\n\nThe animals are a lower class of being and have no choice but to submit to judgement of\n\ntheir superiors when it comes to moral decisions. Same for the people of Urth, who are\n\nas dead as a pack of lab rats." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any evidence that Inire has been around for 1000 years, or anything like it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHe has been vizier to all the autarchs. How many years of them have there been?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if he knows that Severian will bring the New Sun, he doesn’t apparently intend to do " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anything to stop it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHe reacted in the same way that Jupiter and Dionysus reacted to the coming of Jesus. Perhaps\n\nthey knew they were about to be swept away, perhaps they didn't. But what were they supposed\n\nto do about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, it appears they don’t care who lives or dies so long as human knowledge advances. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThat might be a way to look at it. I think \"spiritual advancement\" is a better way of\n\nunderstanding what is really going on here. The bottom line is that pretty much every \n\nhuman on Urth does die. We had a similar situation during a Flood here on earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They would willing have worked simultaneously with Josef Mengele and the Manhattan Project." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGod allowed both those projects to continue simultaneously, didn't He? They both killed a lot\n\nof people. Are you implying that one of these actions was \"good\" and the other \"bad\"? Or that \n\nboth are bad? Both good? I'm not quite catching your meaning on this one. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<72B5CB666A9E4401B8134E21A9ACA501@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T02:04:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As interstellar arms dealers, if that is one of their (hierodule) \nroles on Urth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed, it is one of their roles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "also apparently do not choose sides. They seem to take the view that conflict \nleads to progress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, they might choose Severian over Baldanders. Isn't fully clear. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s clear enough — they didn’t take sides in that fight. Though they probably knew how it ended, as Baldanders himself guessed, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This angle would seem to require that you identify angels. You mean the interstellar \narms dealers, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. When I say angels, I mean the Bibical kind not those found on Christmas cards.\nThink Angel of Death slaying Egyptian children, Cherubim with flaming sword guarding\nEden. The four archangels leading the Hebrew army to victory on the battlefield. Uriel,\nMichael, Raphael and good old Gabriel (Dr. Talos' role) on the frontlines, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But all those angels, who admittedly did not flinch at the sight of blood, seem to have picked one side. Do we know of any Biblical angels who supported both sides in a conflict?\n\nI’m not saying the Hierodules are evil, by the way, even in our terms. I’m just saying that setting them up as “angels”, in order to make a contrast with “demons” like (you are proposing) Father Inire, doesn’t seem to work well given the actual behaviour of both sides. Inire, it would seem to me, supports the better side on Urth. If the Hierodules are selling arms to both Commonwealth and Ascians, in an Urth tottering towards extinction, surely we must prefer Inire, who cleaves — against his own best interests — to the Autarch who runs a seemingly more human, if backward, realm, and will in time bring about a New Sun. \n\nFamulimus may have a pretty face, but if we demand that she and Inire are angel and devil, or devil and angel respectively... is it not Inire, by his actions, who deserves the title of angel? Perhaps he also has a fantastic body under those robes, but prefers to be judged by his deeds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would an angel say: \"Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have you not thought \nit might be something more?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the answer to that is obvious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if “angel” has other than the usual meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the Hierodules are supplying weapons to both sides (of course we’re not certain of \nthat, I think — perhaps some other group of cacogens is supplying them, in which case \nit might be *they* who are Inire’s cousins), they would seem to have a worse claim on \nour sort of morality than Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It might have some substance if you base your hyphothetical \"other group\" on some \nunmentioned level of Biblical angels or something like that. Otherwise, they are just \na non-textual Gerry invention or extrapolation. Nothing wrong with that I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was more of a Gerry interjection. Are we sure it is the Hierodules who supply energy weapons to both the Commonwealth and the Ascians? I think it is them also, but I am not certain we know it from the text, so I mention the alternative. Like Quetzal, I am a careful man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as angelic morality, you've already explained it in your argument above. Neither\nangels nor God are subject to judgement by human morality. They are higher beings and\nhave their own \"mysterious ways\" to justify what they do. They act as a scientist acts\ninjecting carcinogens into thousands of animals and dissecting them for a higher cause.\nThe animals are a lower class of being and have no choice but to submit to judgement of\ntheir superiors when it comes to moral decisions. Same for the people of Urth, who are\nas dead as a pack of lab rats." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We cannot control their actions. But we can choose what we call them. If they abuse us, the word “angel” seems inappropriate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there any evidence that Inire has been around for 1000 years, or anything like it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He has been vizier to all the autarchs. How many years of them have there been?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I hadn’t realised that. I thought it was only known that he had been around a while, and served the Old Autarch. \n\nWhere does it say he served all the Autarchs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if he knows that Severian will bring the New Sun, he doesn’t apparently intend to do \nanything to stop it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He reacted in the same way that Jupiter and Dionysus reacted to the coming of Jesus. Perhaps\nthey knew they were about to be swept away, perhaps they didn't. But what were they supposed\nto do about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could have killed Severian in the jungle, for a start. Okay, you can argue that wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey stuff would have cancelled his efforts, if he had. But why do *anything*, if that is the case?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, it appears they don’t care who lives or dies so long as human knowledge advances. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That might be a way to look at it. I think \"spiritual advancement\" is a better way of\nunderstanding what is really going on here. The bottom line is that pretty much every \nhuman on Urth does die. We had a similar situation during a Flood here on earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders doesn’t seem big on spiritual advancement, and they help him. [I also don’t agree that the flood wipes out almost all humans, though I accept it is devastating.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They would willing have worked simultaneously with Josef Mengele and the Manhattan Project. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "God allowed both those projects to continue simultaneously, didn't He? They both killed a lot\nof people. Are you implying that one of these actions was \"good\" and the other \"bad\"? Or that \nboth are bad? Both good? I'm not quite catching your meaning on this one. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But was God more than usually present as a special advisor to both projects? If God is omnipresent, he was present at both, certainly. And the leaders of both may have prayed for his aid and asserted his presence, for all I know. But in BotNS, the room in which Baldanders dissects living women is a place in which the Hierodules especially manifest themselves. (To be fair, they claim that the matter is nothing to do with them.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T03:59:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike's ghost", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a decent conversation :- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, (hierodules) might choose Severian over Baldanders. Isn't fully clear. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It’s clear enough — they didn’t take sides in that fight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI'm not so sure. But either way, my judgement of the tone of their conversation\n\nsuggests that they really like Severian. Baldanders...not so much. Baldanders\n\nexperiments with human bodies. Severian tortures them and cuts their heads off.\n\nThey need someone who will be willing to exterminate most of humanity, right?\n\nKindness is obviously not the criterion which gets you picked to be New Sun.\n\n(devotion and loyalty to the the Increate is more like it)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know of any Biblical angels who supported both sides in a conflict?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't think Baldanders and Talos are the \"other\" side in whatever conflict\n\nthe hierodules are fighting. They seem to have chosen Severian over Baldanders\n\nas their champion against a greater foe who shall remain unmentioned for now. \n\nIf Baldanders did receive the mermaid's kiss to produce the scars(gills?) on \n\nhis neck and underwater breathing, it might have contributed to his abandonment \n\nby the hierodules. WOrking with the enemy, even temporarily, isn't such a good \n\nidea. God/Increate and His agents always know.\n\n \n\nAnyway, in regard to angels \"supporting both sides\" let's just say that the Bible \n\nis a pretty one-sided book as should be expected. If we read the holy texts of \n\nHebrew rivals (as Wolfe has) we will find the Bible's demons recognized instead \n\nas angels and gods. But good or evil, angel or demon, all do God's will. No getting\n\naround that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’m not saying the Hierodules are evil, by the way, even in our terms. I’m just " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "saying that setting them up as “angels”, in order to make a contrast with “demons” " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "like (you are proposing) Father Inire, doesn’t seem to work well given the actual " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "behaviour of both sides. Inire, it would seem to me, supports the better side on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Urth. If the Hierodules are selling arms to both Commonwealth and Ascians, in an " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Urth tottering towards extinction, surely we must prefer Inire, who cleaves ? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "against his own best interests — to the Autarch who runs a seemingly more human, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if backward, realm, and will in time bring about a New Sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think you are trapped in a modernist sort of stereotype where angels represent some\n\nuniversal \"good\" while demons represent universal \"evil\". How \"good\" are God's angels\n\ngoing to appear to Egyptians or Canaanites who suffered massive genocide at their hands?\n\nDo you forget that God Himself did direct massive genocide with His Biblical Flood?\n\nHe even killed the innocent animals who didn't make it to the ark, just to cleanse the\n\nearth of human wickedness.\n\n \n\nGerry you are not a Christian. Neither am I. But I know enough to know that devout \n\nChristian beliefs in \"good\" and \"evil\" are not based on human moral judgement but rather\n\nby allegiance to God and faith that all He does is ultimately \"good\" no matter how bad\n\nit may seem to us now. And when we read a book by Gene WOlfe we reside in the world of a\n\nCreator with devout, scholarly Christian values. This must be understood.\n\n \n\nAppearances and behavior aside, we can know Hierodules to be angelic because they invoke\n\nthe Increate as their master and inspiration. In contrast, Father Inire invokes Helios,\n\nHyperior, Surya and Savitar. Angels associate with God. Demons with pagan/gnostic deities.\n\nAll do God's will of course. But angels do it loyally and willingly.\n\n \n\nAnyway, WOlfe affirms that the hiero-types (all of them) are angelic beings in the James\n\nJordan interview. You've got the wings. You've got the superhuman beauty. You've got the \n\nangelic auras. Whaddya want, halos and harps? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T06:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<72B5CB666A9E4401B8134E21A9ACA501@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Ah, I hadn’t realised that. I thought it was only known that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he had been around a while, and served the Old Autarch. Where does it say he " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "served all the Autarchs?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe statement about Father Inire's term comes from Rudesind in the meeting at\n\nthe House Absolute. Rudesind forgets the lines he was supposed to say, and \n\nSeverian asks him who had coached him. Rudesind says: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Why, Father Inire...Who do you suppose? Senile. That's what they say. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Been vizier to I don't know how many autarchs since Ymar.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without that bit of information I can see why it would be difficult to consider\n\nFather Inire stretching back to Typhon's time or what his role might have been\n\nduring Typhon's rule. Thoughts about sorcerers and mandragoras also figure into\n\nthat particular equation. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED86B8E.70905@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T06:09:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 12:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\"Why, Father Inire...Who do you suppose? Senile. That's what they say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Been vizier to I don't know how many autarchs since Ymar.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is suspect, however, because Rudesind is the senile one; putting \nthe word alone in a sentence even gives it extra emphasis." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T13:15:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4ED86B8E.70905@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 12:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\"Why, Father Inire...Who do you suppose? Senile. That's what they say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Been vizier to I don't know how many autarchs since Ymar.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This is suspect, however, because Rudesind is the senile one; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "putting the word alone in a sentence even gives it extra emphasis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree. The whole conversation is fishy. Is Father Inire senile or is \n\nit Rudesind who just forgot his lines? Let's remember that Rudesind is small,\n\nold and bent and looks like a monkey.\n\n \n\nIn this conversation, Rudesind is revealed to have been an artist. He was \n\nalso the subject of a painting by Fechin. But there is a clue that painting\n\nmay have been a self-portrait.\n\n \n\nSeverian meets the Autarch after this conversation, and is then guided to the\n\nthiasus by a small, hooded, cloaked person. Perhaps Rudesind put on a hooded\n\ncloak?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The Cumaean does a little necromancy, but the artificial beautification " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was the work of the Hierodules? pal Talos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nMerryn twice makes claims that The Cumaean is superior to Dr. Talos, both as a \n\nphysician and a beautificator. Merryn herself appears to be a subject of The Cumaean's\n\nwork as she appears to be the same age as she was when Severian saw her some 15 years\n\npreviously. At that time, when Severian was a kid, Merryn's face was:\n\n \n\n \"at once suggestive of beauty and disease. The witch to whom it beloned seemed old to\n\nme and must actually have been about twenty or a little less...\"She was not tall and \n\nshe carried herself in the bent-backed posture of extreme age. Her face was so lovely \n\nand bloodless that it might have been a mask carved in ivory by some master sculptor\".\n\n \n\nSeverian's connection to The Cumaean during the seance seems to give him the gift of\n\ntrue sight. He sees The Cumaean in her snake-like form, \"one of those who ride the \n\nnight air who sometimes choose to borrow a human seeming\".\n\n \n\nHe sees Merryn and observes, \"Now that intelligence no longer animated that ivory mask\n\nI saw that it was no more than parchment over bone\".\n\n \n\nSeverian had it backwards in their first meeting, Merryn is really old but has been\n\nmade to appear young. This jibes with The Cumaean's decribed role as a beautifier and\n\nher detailed knowledge of those arts including how Jolenta had been beautified.\n\n \n\nFWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a candidate for being \n\nSeverian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor make her a better \n\ncandidate. Was she a witch before waitress? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T15:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Ah, I hadn’t realised that. I thought it was only known that \nhe had been around a while, and served the Old Autarch. Where does it say he \nserved all the Autarchs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The statement about Father Inire's term comes from Rudesind in the meeting at\nthe House Absolute. Rudesind forgets the lines he was supposed to say, and \nSeverian asks him who had coached him. Rudesind says: \n\"Why, Father Inire...Who do you suppose? Senile. That's what they say. \nBeen vizier to I don't know how many autarchs since Ymar.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough — I had missed that. Jeff makes a reasonable point about Rudesind (easy to imagine the old guy exaggerating Inire’s lifespan) but I think it’s probably correct. It is not unlike Wolfe to say the true statement straight out in a way that invites the reader to disbelieve it if he wishes. In any case, it’s clear that there’s no problem with a theory that makes Inire very ancient, even if “young Inire” theories can find solace in Rudesind’s age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without that bit of information I can see why it would be difficult to consider\nFather Inire stretching back to Typhon's time or what his role might have been\nduring Typhon's rule. Thoughts about sorcerers and mandragoras also figure into\nthat particular equation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we are told he was vizier to Ymar, who apparently became Autarch after Typhon had himself mummified, and given that a few decades won’t have meant much to a guy that old, we can assume he was around during Typhon’s reign. However, the most obvious hypothesis in this regard was that if he was on Urth, he was of the party involved in putting a black hole in the Sun, an action of which Typhon would have disapproved. \n\nWe know Ymar went to Yesod; the most obvious hypothesis is that Inire helped him, and when he failed, he stayed on Urth helping Ymar’s successors, until such time as the New Sun would eventually come. \n\nGiven that he is a cousin of the Hierodules, why would he be even on Urth unless he came to punish Typhon, or to set up the new order afterwards? Given Typhon’s nature, we cannot reasonably suspect that Inire manipulated him into whatever actions resulted in the black hole. So a theory placing Inire on Urth during Typhon’s time seemingly must assume that he was there for his own reasons, whether as hedge sorceror, member of Typhon’s court, or whatever. If so, he can hardly have been there for the purpose of catching the New Sun.\n\nIf all he wanted was a long cushy life as vizier to the Autarchs, surely he would have done his best to prevent Severian bringing the New Sun. Conversely, if he wanted the New Sun, why wait as vizier for centuries or more? \n\nIt’s possible to invent all sorts of theories, and anything inexplicable can always be put down to mysterious time travel stuff. But really, why not make our judgements based on what he does, which is help and protect the Autarchs, one of whom will bring the New Sun? If he was left there by the Hierodules for exactly that purpose, both his longevity and his presence in Ymar’s court are explained. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<77B9A5ABEB664B32AD7C3E71173FEC7D@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T16:06:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The Cumaean does a little necromancy, but the artificial beautification \nwas the work of the Hierodules? pal Talos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Merryn twice makes claims that The Cumaean is superior to Dr. Talos, both as a \nphysician and a beautificator. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we have no reason to doubt it. But of beautification or the like, she says: “it is not a task of the kind the Cumaean undertakes, save in great need”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Merryn herself appears to be a subject of The Cumaean's\nwork as she appears to be the same age as she was when Severian saw her some 15 years\npreviously. At that time, when Severian was a kid, Merryn's face was:\n \"at once suggestive of beauty and disease. The witch to whom it beloned seemed old to\nme and must actually have been about twenty or a little less...\"She was not tall and \nshe carried herself in the bent-backed posture of extreme age. Her face was so lovely \nand bloodless that it might have been a mask carved in ivory by some master sculptor\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is certainly plausible that Merryn is the same witch Severian met when younger, in which case she is not his sister. But she lacks the wires etc. Severian sees in Jolenta. I don’t really see her as being artificially beautified by the Cumaean, but I think it is possible that her life was artificially extended. However, the contrast between her and Jolenta is great. You are suggesting that artificial beautification is evil [if so, then every woman is evil], but even if Merryn has been artificially beautified, one actually sees a contrast between good and evil uses of such technology. We have no reason to believe the Cumaean would do what Talos did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian had it backwards in their first meeting, Merryn is really old but has been\nmade to appear young. This jibes with The Cumaean's decribed role as a beautifier and\nher detailed knowledge of those arts including how Jolenta had been beautified." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She has a detailed knowledge of just about everything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a candidate for being \nSeverian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor make her a better \ncandidate. Was she a witch before waitress? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If she’s old, she can’t be Severian’s twin, certainly. Maybe she isn’t really old and her witchy experiments/knowledge age her. Then she would look similar to the Cumaean’s previous acolyte whom Severian met.\n\nI don’t think there’s any sensible reason to think Jolenta is Severian’s sister. We don’t know her name, and your “incest factor” is meaningless. Severian sleeps with countless women of wildly differering backgrounbd and descriptions, so his sleeping with a woman cannot be an indicator of a genetic relationship (why would it be anyway?) I can’t remember her height but it hardly means much.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T17:04:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<77B9A5ABEB664B32AD7C3E71173FEC7D@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/02, ?s 16:06, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think there’s any sensible reason to think Jolenta is \nSeverian’s sister." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we are to make any sense of it, then, at first sight, Severian's \nsister, if there is one, should be about his age. That limits the \noptions considerably." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322845524.95248.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T17:05:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<77B9A5ABEB664B32AD7C3E71173FEC7D@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a candidate for being \nSeverian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor make her a better \ncandidate. Was she a witch before waitress?????? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If she’s old, she can’t be Severian’s twin, certainly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's always time travel. Is it odd that Severian doesn't consider the possibility?\n\nBy the way, is there any reason to connect the speculation that there's only one Ship with Severian's speculation that there are only two witches?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe she isn’t really old and her witchy experiments/knowledge age her. Then she would look similar to the Cumaean’s previous acolyte whom Severian met.\n\nI don’t think there’s any sensible reason to think Jolenta is Severian’s sister. We don’t know her name," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me see if I have this right. For some readers, our not knowing her original name would suggest that she's Severian's sister, because if we knew it, that would give the game away. Can anyone confirm this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and your “incest factor” is meaningless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to agree there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian sleeps with countless women of wildly differering backgrounbd and descriptions, so his sleeping with a woman cannot be an indicator of a genetic relationship (why would it be anyway?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can we count them? Thecla, her khaibit, Dorcas, Jolenta, Daria, Pia, Valeria, and whatever women and others I've forgotten about in UotNS. Who am I missing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can’t remember her height but it hardly means much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED91B62.1060409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T18:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 8:15 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nOn 12/2/2011 12:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nGerry Quinn: The Cumaean does a little necromancy, but the artificial beautification was the work of the Hierodules? pal Talos.\n\n\nMerryn twice makes claims that The Cumaean is superior to Dr. Talos, both as a physician and a beautificator. Merryn herself appears to be a subject of The Cumaean's work as she appears to be the same age as she was when Severian saw her some 15 years\npreviously. At that time, when Severian was a kid, Merryn's face was:\n\n\n\n \"at once suggestive of beauty and disease. The witch to whom it beloned seemed old to me and must actually have been about twenty or a little less...\" She was not tall and she carried herself in the bent-backed posture of extreme age. Her face was so lovely and bloodless that it might have been a mask carved in ivory by some master sculptor\".\n\n\n\nSeverian's connection to The Cumaean during the seance seems to give him the gift of true sight. He sees The Cumaean in her snake-like form, \"one of those who ride the night air who sometimes choose to borrow a human seeming\".\n\n\n\nHe sees Merryn and observes, \"Now that intelligence no longer animated that ivory mask I saw that it was no more than parchment over bone\".\n\n\n\nSeverian had it backwards in their first meeting, Merryn is really old but has been made to appear young. This jibes with The Cumaean's decribed role as a beautifier and her detailed knowledge of those arts including how Jolenta had been beautified.\n\n\n\nFWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a candidate for being Severian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor make her a better candidate. Was she a witch before waitress? \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With all that is going on in the rooftop scene, it seems a little narrow \nto focus on \"Cumaean as beautician.\" Or even as a physician:\n\n\"You do not need a physician now,\" Merryn said. \"Someone better is here.\"\n\n\nMerryn doesn't say \"a better one is here.\" She says \"someone better \n[than a physician] is here. \" Therefore, the Cumaean is not a physician. \nAfter all, she doesn't have anything but wine to give Jolenta.\n\nShe seems to have powers over time. If she always sees the way Severian \nsees during the seance, as from a perspective longer than a single \nmoment, then of course she can see Jolenta's bands and wires like he \ncan. She doesn't seem to care much about appearances, and given the \ndismissive way she talks of Merryn, she doesn't really sound like a \nwitch who would say, \"Oh my, you'll never catch a man with that face, \ndearie. Come here and let me fix you up.\"\n\nAs for the evidence that she is a beautician ... is it possible that you \nhave been deceived by a metaphor? \"Parchment over bone\" means either \nthat Merryn wears a mask, which Sev can now see (it is not \"ivory\" as it \nappears, i.e., firm, smooth white carved \"skin,\" but a thin skin mask), \nor that she is simply very old (no mask at all, but thin skin over \ncheekbones without flesh, as the aged can have)---hard to say for sure. \nMaybe she is a kind of marionette, who knows.\n\nEither way, is it not likely that Merryn is ravaged by time? And is it \nnot just a small step from there to consider that maybe she has seen \nmore years than those that have passed between now and last Severian saw \nher? And is she not bent over, thus actually making her taller than she \nlooks? Sev says \"she was not tall\" and \"she was bent over\" in the same \nbreath. I defer to his ability to size up a client, but that seems odd.\n\nWithout judging whether Merryn is Severa or not, Merryn strikes me as \nbeing the closest. Only three rules need to be true to make her a \ncandidate: (1) all half-exultant women are tall, but not as tall as \nexultants or male half-exultants (2) all twin sisters of torturers are \nwitches (3) all witches are ravaged by time. (1 and 3 would effectively \ncancel under casual observation.) Is there not a hypothesis floating \naround that the Witches' Keep is a \"chronostructure\"?\n\nWhat is it about the name Jolenta (violet) that disqualifies her from \nbeing Severa?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T18:40:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1322845524.95248.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Im gonna have to agree with Lee. Id say that Jolenta a better\ncandidate for Severa than any other female character in the book. Yes\nthe fact that we never know her real name is a clue that Wolfe is\nhiding something. Every other significant character is named. I cant\nrecall the injury but I know there is a point where Jolenta is unable\nto walk and has to be carried by Severian echoing Severians later\nlameness. I think its also important that Jolenta along with Dorcas\nacts in the play (where Severians mother is a character no doubt).\nYeah the incest thing may be irrelevant but take into account that\nWolfe hints that Jolenta and Dorcas may have also had a sexual\nrelationship. Dorcas sleeping with both her grandchildren is a kind\nof symmetry found elsewhere in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/11, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Lee Berman\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a\ncandidate for being\nSeverian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor\nmake her a better\ncandidate. Was she a witch before waitress?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If she’s old, she can’t be Severian’s twin, certainly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's always time travel. Is it odd that Severian doesn't consider the\npossibility?\n\nBy the way, is there any reason to connect the speculation that there's only\none Ship with Severian's speculation that there are only two witches?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe she isn’t really old and her witchy experiments/knowledge age her.\nThen she would look similar to the Cumaean’s previous acolyte whom\nSeverian met.\n\nI don’t think there’s any sensible reason to think Jolenta is Severian’s\nsister. We don’t know her name," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me see if I have this right. For some readers, our not knowing her\noriginal name would suggest that she's Severian's sister, because if we knew\nit, that would give the game away. Can anyone confirm this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and your “incest factor” is meaningless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm inclined to agree there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian sleeps with countless women of wildly differering backgrounbd and\ndescriptions, so his sleeping with a woman cannot be an indicator of a\ngenetic relationship (why would it be anyway?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can we count them? Thecla, her khaibit, Dorcas, Jolenta, Daria, Pia,\nValeria, and whatever women and others I've forgotten about in UotNS. Who\nam I missing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can’t remember her height but it hardly means much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T18:48:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4ED91B62.1060409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\"You do not need a physician now,\" Merryn said. \"Someone better is here.\"\n\nMerryn doesn't say \"a better one is here.\" She says \"someone better [than a\nphysician] is here. \" Therefore, the Cumaean is not a physician." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nAre you sure that Merryn is referring to the Cumaean? Or is she\n(perhaps without realizing it) referring to Severian?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED92199.5050509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T19:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1322845524.95248.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 12:05 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn\nFrom: Lee Berman\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW, I think Merryn's age, name and lack of height disqualify her as a candidate for being\nSeverian's twin. I think Jolenta's height, name and the incest factor make her a better\ncandidate. Was she a witch before waitress?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If she’s old, she can’t be Severian’s twin, certainly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThere's always time travel. Is it odd that Severian doesn't consider the possibility?\n \nBy the way, is there any reason to connect the speculation that there's only one Ship with Severian's speculation that there are only two witches?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Provisionally, I consider such thoughts to be largely philosophical and \nintended to disguise hints about Severian himself as well as the nature \nof time and the universe and human evolution. They suggest that \narchetypes are real---and one could write a book about that topic in \nWolfe alone.\n\nSomehow I have a persistent image of a single needle stitching back and \nforth through time---is that Severian's or my own? At any rate, Master \nAsh suggests time is a fabric or a sea. The Conciliator seems to behave \nas a darning needle stitching the fabric of time. Whether purely \ncyclical or slowly getting somewhere it is a huge theme; one would \nexpect hints such as this dropped throughout. And they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe she isn’t really old and her witchy experiments/knowledge age her. Then she would look similar to the Cumaean’s previous acolyte whom Severian met.\n\nI don’t think there’s any sensible reason to think Jolenta is Severian’s sister. We don’t know her name," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nLet me see if I have this right. For some readers, our not knowing her original name would suggest that she's Severian's sister, because if we knew it, that would give the game away. Can anyone confirm this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that were true, the only possible name would be Severa. No other name \ncomes close to the absolute certainty that Severa is sister of Severian. \nAll other feminine names could serve to hide that name. So I don't see \nhow characters' names can mean a lot one way or another in proving \nSevera exists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and your “incest factor” is meaningless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI'm inclined to agree there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think incest is meaningful but that doesn't mean it must occur, much \nless always. For all we know, Severa is indeed Severian's real twin \nsister and according to alchemy, their union would repair the divide \nbetween the male and female godhead, or whatever it's supposed to have \ndone for the Egyptians.\n\nSo what? That would make Apheta a prime candidate, but that turns the \ntheory on its head. What would happen if Severa and Severian did NOT \nmeet and mate? Anything?\n\nIf Briah is a gnostic/fallen universe where beings enact meaningless \nrituals in hopes of connection with the Divine, but where a Christ \nfigure achieves an apotheosis of sorts and a partial reconciliation of \nIncreate and man by doing all sorts of other things, would we really \nexpect all those rituals to come about? Wouldn't they be a different \npath from the one he took?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED9279E.5010601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T19:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting thought." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 1:40 PM, Larry Miller wrote:\nDorcas sleeping with both her grandchildren is a kind\nof symmetry found elsewhere in the book." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED9281D.5070901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T19:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 1:48 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"You do not need a physician now,\" Merryn said. \"Someone better is here.\"\n\nMerryn doesn't say \"a better one is here.\" She says \"someone better [than a\nphysician] is here. \" Therefore, the Cumaean is not a physician." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nAre you sure that Merryn is referring to the Cumaean? Or is she\n(perhaps without realizing it) referring to Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me? No, not at all. The Cumaean does nothing visible for Jolenta but \ngive her wine. Neither does Severian, but that is no surprise." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T20:04:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4ED9281D.5070901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Id say that Jolenta is a better candidate for Severa" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "than any other female character in the book. Yes the fact that we " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "never know her real name is a clue that Wolfe is hiding something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. If there was a witch character of the right age named Severa, \n\nwe wouldn't be having this discussion. Even if we ignore the theme of\n\nincest (which we should not do, imho), are there any other characters\n\nwho are Severian's age and who might be named Severa and who might have\n\nbeen raised with witches? I think only (stage name) Jolenta fits that\n\nbill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I think incest is meaningful but that doesn't mean it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "must occur, much less always." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree. \n\n \n\nSeverian's travels resemble those of a clueless Greek hero like\n\nOedipus, stumbling into situations of which he doesn't understand the \n\nsignificance. Oedipus had sex with his mother, an act that defined him.\n\nIf he had sex with other women too, that does not make him any less of\n\na motherf..well, you know. A pattern of incest among Severian's mates\n\ndoes not require that all his mates were family members." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....That would make Apheta a prime candidate, but that turns the \ntheory on its head." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI'll disagree. Severian's sex with Apheta might be a positive clue. Also\n\nthe fact that Apheta did not enjoy the sex (kinda like siblings Typhon and\n\nEchidna? Now there was a crappy marriage for sure). Apheta does not seem to \n\nhave been born on Urth with Severian and she doesn't seem to have been a witch\n\nnor even had a name before she met Severian. Moreover, the concept of a\n\nmissing twin to Severian named Severa was developed in the first four books,\n\nostensibly a fait accompli. It would have been quite unfair of Wolfe to\n\ndangle Severa at us then only show her in an unplanned additional volume." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Briah is a gnostic/fallen universe where beings enact meaningless \nrituals in hopes of connection with the Divine......" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't see it quite this way. Briah is a gnostic universe but retarded not fallen. \n\nActually, I think Briah is rising, but just a lot more slowly than our unverse.\n\nWe got our Flood at the dawn of civilization and Christ at 1 A.D. Briah doesn't\n\nget its Flood until the equivalent of many thousands of years into our future. And\n\nBriah has glimmers but has not yet achieved a Christ when the story ends. Still\n\nspiritually polytheistic and nature-god oriented. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED935FD.9030600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T20:33:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Witches", "in_reply_to": "<77B9A5ABEB664B32AD7C3E71173FEC7D@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurred to me that the Witches' patron saint might shed light on \nthem. It's a stretch, because such connections usually serve to confirm \na theory rather than suggest a new one, but here goes (from the Wiki and \nCatholic Saints Index).\n\n(1) Mag/Maggie/Margaret is one of the Three Holy Maids who are the most \nimportant of the 14 Holy Helpers, all virgin martyrs. All three appear \nin BNS: Barbara, who lived in a tower, is the patroness of \nmatrosses/artillerymen, Mag is the saint of the witches, and we know \nabout Katherine. All three are spurious saints with fantastic \nbackstories. All were beheaded. I'm pretty sure BNS began as an \nabandoned short story about Katherine (as detailed elsewhere by others), \nso it makes sense that Wolfe put these three at the center of BNS.\n\nOther important beheaded virgin martyrs are Valeria of Limoges \n(beheaded), Agnes (beheaded), and Lucy (blinded before executed). All \ntheir stories have fantastic elements.\n\n/Sankt Margaretha mit dem Wurm,/\n/Sankt Barbara mit dem Turm,/\n/Sankt Catharina mit dem Radl,/\n/das sind die heiligen drei Madl./^[2] \n\n\n/Saint Margaret with the dragon \n/\n/Saint Barbara with the tower/\n/Saint Catherine with the wheel/\n/those are the three holy maids.\n/\n\n\n(2) Saint Margaret is the patron of women in childbirth because she \nprayed at her death that women in childbirth would, upon calling on her, \nbe safely delivered of the child as she had been delivered from the \nbelly of the dragon.\n\n[The witches get all girls who are delivered by women to be tortured.]\n\n(3) Margaret was born in Antioch, the daughter of a pagan priest named \nAedesius. Antioch was a Roman province under the rule of the Roman \nEmperor Diocletian (r.284-305). Emperor Diocletian mounted some of the \nfiercest persecutions of the early Church especially in the East of the \nEmpire. Margaret converted to the Christian faith and became a devout \nChristian and had taken vows of chastity. The Governor of Antioch had \nMargaret arrested and she was thrown into a dungeon. According to legend \nwhilst she was in the dungeon, the devil came and tempted her in the \nform of a dragon, but as she made the sign of the Cross the dragon at \nfirst fled. He then returned and swallowed her up but she was able to \nburst out. When Margaret was led out to be beheaded, she thanked God \nthat the end of her travail had come, and prayed that in memory of her \nmiraculous deliverance out of the womb of the dragon, women in labour \nwho invoked her might find help through her sufferings.\n\n(4) Saint Margaret is represented in Christian art with a dragon at her \nfeet, with the end of a cross thrust between his teeth. The garland of \npearls generally worn round her neck is in allusion to her name, which \namong Oriental nations signifies a pearl.\n\n[The Cumaean, who appears as a snake to Severian, swallows a rod that \nappears to extend into other dimensions or into time. She is thus linked \nwith Satan, but I don't argue that this should be taken literally.]\n\n(5) Her historical existence has been questioned; she was declared \napocryphal by Pope Gelasius I in 494, but devotion to her revived in the \nWest with the Crusades. ....\n\n(6) The Eastern Orthodox Church knows Margaret as Saint Marina, and \ncelebrates her feast day on July 17. She has been identified with Saint \nPelagia — \"Marina\" being the Latin equivalent of the Greek name \n\"Pelagia\" — who, according to a legend, was also called Margarita. We \npossess no historical documents on St Margaret as distinct from St \nPelagia. The Greek Marina came from Antioch, Pisidia (as opposed to \nAntioch of Syria), but this distinction was lost in the West.\n\n[Any associations with the sea are worth noting....]\n\n(7) An attempt has been made, but without success, to prove that the \ngroup of legends with which that of Saint Margaret is connected is \nderived from a transformation of the pagan divinity Aphrodite into a \nChristian saint. The problem of her identity is a purely literary question.\n\n[Any associations with classical gods are worth noting as well.]\n\n\nHas anyone considered Valeria as a candidate to be the beautiful maid \nwho is beheaded annually at the Feast of St Katherine? This would \nrequire that Severian suppress any recognition of her, but then we \nalready know he suppressed any conscious desire to see her again, let \nalone marry her, through four books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED93912.1010609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T20:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 3:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: I think incest is meaningful but that doesn't mean it must occur, much less always." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree.\n\n\n\nSeverian's travels resemble those of a clueless Greek hero like\n\nOedipus, stumbling into situations of which he doesn't understand the\n\nsignificance. Oedipus had sex with his mother, an act that defined him.\n\nIf he had sex with other women too, that does not make him any less of\n\na motherf..well, you know. A pattern of incest among Severian's mates\n\ndoes not require that all his mates were family members." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Oedipus wasn't the only Greek hero who bumbled around through his \ncareer. Heracles was not much better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....That would make Apheta a prime candidate, but that turns the\ntheory on its head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll disagree. Severian's sex with Apheta might be a positive clue. Also\n\nthe fact that Apheta did not enjoy the sex (kinda like siblings Typhon and\n\nEchidna? Now there was a crappy marriage for sure)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Their mating seems quite alchemical in its result, just not \nincestuous in form. Unless she *looked like* Severa, which would then be \nfalse alchemy. Hidden false alchemy!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apheta does not seem to have been born on Urth with Severian and she doesn't seem to have been a witch nor even had a name before she met Severian. Moreover, the concept of a missing twin to Severian named Severa was developed in the first four books, ostensibly a fait accompli. It would have been quite unfair of Wolfe to dangle Severa at us then only show her in an unplanned additional volume." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I meant by \"turns on its head.\" It doesn't work for Apheta \nto *be* Severa. However, if there *is* a Severa and Sev is *not* to mate \nwith her, it might make sense that he would engage in ritual holy mating \nwith someone else *instead of* Severa, a mating that would produce a \nreal effect vs a presumably false effect.\n\nNote: This line of thought, stretched as it is, pretty much requires \nSevera to be Merryn (unmated) and not Jolenta (mated)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Briah is a gnostic/fallen universe where beings enact meaningless\nrituals in hopes of connection with the Divine......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see it quite this way. Briah is a gnostic universe but retarded not fallen. Actually, I think Briah is rising, but just a lot more slowly than our unverse. We got our Flood at the dawn of civilization and Christ at 1 A.D. Briah doesn't get its Flood until the equivalent of many thousands of years into our future. And Briah has glimmers but has not yet achieved a Christ when the story ends. Still spiritually polytheistic and nature-god oriented. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty much what I meant. Unenlightened, groping at shadows." } ] }, { "message_id": "<36B534A558774F08B0D378FBE1D40347@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T20:59:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: Id say that Jolenta is a better candidate for Severa\nthan any other female character in the book. Yes the fact that we \nnever know her real name is a clue that Wolfe is hiding something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. If there was a witch character of the right age named Severa, \nwe wouldn't be having this discussion. Even if we ignore the theme of\nincest (which we should not do, imho), are there any other characters\nwho are Severian's age and who might be named Severa and who might have\nbeen raised with witches? I think only (stage name) Jolenta fits that\nbill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merryn might be Severian’s age for all we know. We know there is something odd about her age; she looks both old and young, and one or other appearance must be false. It might be the old appearance as easily as the young. If Severian has a sister who is a character, I am pretty sure it is Merryn. \n\nJolenta is a waitress not a witch, and there’s no indication that she was ever otherwise. Come to think of it, if she had been a witch she would surely have been much more wary of Talos’s blandishments. And I can think of no thematic reason why someone like Jolenta should be Severian’s sister. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's travels resemble those of a clueless Greek hero like\nOedipus, stumbling into situations of which he doesn't understand the \nsignificance. Oedipus had sex with his mother, an act that defined him.\nIf he had sex with other women too, that does not make him any less of\na motherf..well, you know. A pattern of incest among Severian's mates\ndoes not require that all his mates were family members." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It requires that more than one of them was. If you can demonstrate that someone other than Jolenta or Dorcas is closely related to Severian, then you can argue that a pattern exists and Jolenta might follow it. But if you just have Jolenta and Dorcas, you are assuming what you want to prove.\n\nIf we just have Dorcas (the subject of a weird age distortion amounting to time travel and therefore not really within the bounds of “normal” incestuous relationships anyway) there’s no pattern involved.\n\nAnd as we’ve seen, it’s very obvious that most of Severian’s lovers cannot be close relations. And also that sex with Dorcas isn’t in any way a defining characteristic of Severian’s story, as was the case with that of Oedipus .\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED94A53.8080107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T21:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfean epiphany", "in_reply_to": "<36B534A558774F08B0D378FBE1D40347@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thinking about how \"fair\" Wolfe was in writing UNS to explain all the \nthings readers missed in BNS, something occurred to me regarding Apheta, \nwho seems impossible to predict:\n\nWe already had a clear clue that Sev was to meet Apheta and mate with \nher and produce the New Sun---that is, that the New Sun would be \nprocreated, not created. I doubt anyone saw it. That clue is that the \nOld Autarch failed and was unmanned.\n\nWhy is this a clue to a strange and climactic scene of UNS? Because the \nunmanning was not a random punishment. There were surely practical \nreasons for it, but I think Wolfean logic demanded it. It's ridiculously \nsimple. Positive is balanced with negative, presence with absence. \nEither you pass and your genitals contribute to a mythic regeneration or \nyou fail and they no longer exist.\n\nThe genitals were the key. We knew the New Sun would result. So (action \nA) removal of genitals pointed to the presence of (action B) \nprocreation. Had the eyes or head been removed, that would have pointed \nto creation of the New Sun by means involving the eyes or head.\n\nI don't know if it's possible to apply this principle elsewhere; it \nneeds other relevant knowledge to provide context. Does the apparent \nabsence of Severa (her identity not revealed in UNS and therefore either \nnot important or nonexistent), point to another \"obvious\" presence \nsomewhere else? Perhaps a doubled or multiplied Severian?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T22:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfean epiphany", "in_reply_to": "<4ED94A53.8080107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, December 2, 2011 15:59, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhy is this a clue to a strange and climactic scene of UNS? Because the\nunmanning was not a random punishment. There were surely practical\nreasons for it, but I think Wolfean logic demanded it. It's ridiculously\nsimple. Positive is balanced with negative, presence with absence.\nEither you pass and your genitals contribute to a mythic regeneration or\nyou fail and they no longer exist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems culturally relative, and not particularly of a BotNS-wide\nculture; in Norse myth, which is very much a part of the mix, missing body\nparts indicate the opposite outcome of a fruitful sacrifice: Heads for\nwisdom, eyes for knowledge, hands for justice." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED951A8.9040509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T22:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfean epiphany", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 5:10 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Fri, December 2, 2011 15:59, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is this a clue to a strange and climactic scene of UNS? Because the\nunmanning was not a random punishment. There were surely practical\nreasons for it, but I think Wolfean logic demanded it. It's ridiculously\nsimple. Positive is balanced with negative, presence with absence.\nEither you pass and your genitals contribute to a mythic regeneration or\nyou fail and they no longer exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems culturally relative, and not particularly of a BotNS-wide\nculture; in Norse myth, which is very much a part of the mix, missing body\nparts indicate the opposite outcome of a fruitful sacrifice: Heads for\nwisdom, eyes for knowledge, hands for justice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, so there is precedent for it. Yes, it seems to have a mythical \nforce, so I'm not surprised.\n\nBut my point has nothing to do with any BNS culture and everything to do \nwith the kind of logical path Wolfe expects us to know how to follow. If \nthere are such rules in myth, then so much the better." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED98153.9050504@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T01:54:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 7:15 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: This is suspect, however, because Rudesind is the senile one;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "putting the word alone in a sentence even gives it extra emphasis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. The whole conversation is fishy. Is Father Inire senile or is\n\nit Rudesind who just forgot his lines? Let's remember that Rudesind is small,\n\nold and bent and looks like a monkey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the 99th time, Rudesind is TALL. He makes a ladder look like stool \nwhen Sev comes across him.\n\n\nSaying he is old and bent and looks like a monkey is double counting; \nbeing old makes him bent into a simian posture instead of properly upright.\n\n\nBut there may be a connection yet: what process in the books allows a \nperson to live out their normal life span and die, yet still be farting \naround years later doing the necessary, that would benefit from the \ninvolvement of a painter?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED985C2.3090405@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T02:13:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfean epiphany", "in_reply_to": "<4ED951A8.9040509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 4:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/2/2011 5:10 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, December 2, 2011 15:59, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is this a clue to a strange and climactic scene of UNS? Because the\nunmanning was not a random punishment. There were surely practical\nreasons for it, but I think Wolfean logic demanded it. It's ridiculously\nsimple. Positive is balanced with negative, presence with absence.\nEither you pass and your genitals contribute to a mythic regeneration or\nyou fail and they no longer exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This seems culturally relative, and not particularly of a BotNS-wide\nculture; in Norse myth, which is very much a part of the mix, missing\nbody\nparts indicate the opposite outcome of a fruitful sacrifice: Heads for\nwisdom, eyes for knowledge, hands for justice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, so there is precedent for it. Yes, it seems to have a mythical\nforce, so I'm not surprised.\n\nBut my point has nothing to do with any BNS culture and everything to do\nwith the kind of logical path Wolfe expects us to know how to follow. If\nthere are such rules in myth, then so much the better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By opposite outcome, I mean the opposite of what you propose. Mimir \nloses his head, but the head endures and becomes guardian of the well. \nOdin is missing an eye because he successfully traded it for drinking at \nthe well. Tyr loses his hand when he successfully tricks Fenris into \ncaptivity. Loki fails to win his challenge but keeps his head. Sif falls \nfor Loki's tricks or just falls for Loki romantically but ends with more \nexotic and alluring hair than before instead of losing her charms for good." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED9AAFC.1060308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-03T04:52:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfean epiphany", "in_reply_to": "<4ED985C2.3090405@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 9:13 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/2/2011 4:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/2/2011 5:10 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, December 2, 2011 15:59, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why is this a clue to a strange and climactic scene of UNS? Because \nthe\nunmanning was not a random punishment. There were surely practical\nreasons for it, but I think Wolfean logic demanded it. It's \nridiculously\nsimple. Positive is balanced with negative, presence with absence.\nEither you pass and your genitals contribute to a mythic \nregeneration or\nyou fail and they no longer exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This seems culturally relative, and not particularly of a BotNS-wide\nculture; in Norse myth, which is very much a part of the mix, missing\nbody\nparts indicate the opposite outcome of a fruitful sacrifice: Heads for\nwisdom, eyes for knowledge, hands for justice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, so there is precedent for it. Yes, it seems to have a mythical\nforce, so I'm not surprised.\n\nBut my point has nothing to do with any BNS culture and everything to do\nwith the kind of logical path Wolfe expects us to know how to follow. If\nthere are such rules in myth, then so much the better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By opposite outcome, I mean the opposite of what you propose. Mimir \nloses his head, but the head endures and becomes guardian of the well. \nOdin is missing an eye because he successfully traded it for drinking \nat the well. Tyr loses his hand when he successfully tricks Fenris \ninto captivity. Loki fails to win his challenge but keeps his head. \nSif falls for Loki's tricks or just falls for Loki romantically but \nends with more exotic and alluring hair than before instead of losing \nher charms for good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. That is indeed the opposite of losing your manhood in failing to \nprocreate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T14:00:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4ED98153.9050504@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: if there *is* a Severa and Sev is *not* to mate \nwith her, it might make sense that he would engage in ritual holy mating \nwith someone else *instead of* Severa" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nMy own thought is that if Wolfe is playing ironic Oedipal games, Severian\n\nmight have sex with every female relative he encounters except his mother.\n\nCould the Holy Katharine ritual be your ritual holy mating, along the lines\n\nof the animal guys marrying a bear sow?\n\n \n\nThen there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\n\nshe is Severian's cousin. There is intense mutual desire there but it is\n\nnever consummated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jolenta is a waitress not a witch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nJolenta is an actress. We don't know her name when she was a waitress. The\n\nthin girl with straggling hair had only been a waitress for about a month \n\nand she recognizes Severian as a carnifex. Is there any evidence she had \n\nnot previously been a witch but left her guild in symmetry with Severian's\n\nstory? If not she is a viable candidate for Severa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: For the 99th time, Rudesind is TALL. He makes a ladder look " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "like stool when Sev comes across him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. I missed those 99 times, Jeff. And I am very interested in the character\n\nof Rudesind (for obvious reasons). \n\n \n\nThe first time Severian meets Rudesind, he is on a ladder (and scrabbles down).\n\nHis ladder is mentioned twice in their third meeting.\n\n \n\nThe second time Severian meets him, from a distance he: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"saw someone ahead of me sitting (as I first thought) upon a high stool. As I " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nA stepladder, this time. Is Rudesind standing or sitting? Perching could be either.\n\nIt is most normal to stand on a ladder, though a stepladder does offer the option \n\nof sitting. I think standing is more normal in the course of doing work. So if, from \n\na distance, Rudesind standing looks like a normal person sitting, it means he is very \n\nshort. I understand Jeff's ladder/stool= tall conclusion. But I think short-man- \n\nstanding-appears-as-normal-person-sitting to be a more direct interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saying he is old and bent and looks like a monkey is double counting; \nbeing old makes him bent into a simian posture instead of properly upright." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nBeing old is not the equivalent of being bent and monkey-like. Palaemon, Ultan and \n\nAsh are good examples of the contrary. As a fellow curator, I could see why Rudesind\n\nmight be made to look tall like Ultan. But I don't think he is. Old, bent and \n\nmonkey-like are all Father Inire attributes. Rudesind being short also should not be\n\na surprise. If you don't think he actually IS Father Inire, he needn't be. But I think \n\nthere is a resemblance.\n\n \n\nMoreover, Rudesind's nose almost touches his chin. Here are a couple images which I \n\nthink resemble what Wolfe was going for with that:\n\nhttp://images.mudfooted.com/face-Proboscis-Monkey.jpg\n\n \n\nhttp://www.lightwatervillage.co.uk/takefive/graphics/illusion5a.jpg\n\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7AEAEE2B91D149E6B635561FAF6FC0CD@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T14:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\nshe is Severian's cousin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jolenta is a waitress not a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jolenta is an actress. We don't know her name when she was a waitress. The\nthin girl with straggling hair had only been a waitress for about a month \nand she recognizes Severian as a carnifex. Is there any evidence she had \nnot previously been a witch but left her guild in symmetry with Severian's\nstory? If not she is a viable candidate for Severa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The waitress wasn’t an actress (two statements of hers indicate it) and there’s no indication that she hadn’t worked elsewhere as a waitress before her current employment. However, I think you have inadvertently hit on something that indicates she was never a witch.\n\nPalaemon: ?Nowhere but in Nessus - nowhere but here in the Citadel - is there a chapter of our guild. Lesser places have no more than a carnifex.\n\nSeverian is still wearing what he wore as a journeyman of the Torturers Guild. A witch would recognise him as a torturer. Jolenta calls him a carnifex, the name used for an executioner/torturer everywhere else.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDA4B02.7050802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-03T16:14:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/2011 9:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: if there *is* a Severa and Sev is *not* to mate\nwith her, it might make sense that he would engage in ritual holy mating\nwith someone else *instead of* Severa" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My own thought is that if Wolfe is playing ironic Oedipal games, Severian\n\nmight have sex with every female relative he encounters except his mother.\n\nCould the Holy Katharine ritual be your ritual holy mating, along the lines\n\nof the animal guys marrying a bear sow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Symmetry and the centrality of procreation does suggest that there may \nbe some related aspect to the Katherine ritual. But birth vs death seems \nmore likely, doesn't it?\n\nBirth = Mag and the witches, sex/marriage = man's animal nature and the \nbeast handlers (I don't think their patron saint is mentioned, rather \nMithraism is suggested), death = Katherine and the Seekers. These are \nthe three Serious Events of human life. It seems like all Urth's core \nhistoric religious folklore is preserved in the Citadel.\n\nAlso, in the Celtic belief system (I hesitate to call it religion), the \nhead was the seat of the spirit. In some places, heads were apparently \ndetached and kept for longer than the body, which was buried quickly; \nheads were buried weeks later, sometime with the body, sometimes higher \nthan the body. So decapitation is a strong symbol of the separation of \nbody and spirit/life and death and thus possibly salvation from materiality.\n\nBeheading also seems to be a link with the Pelerines, since some but not \nall of their namesakes were beheaded, although that may only apply to \nthose who leave the order, such as Catherine and Cyriaca (Mannea was \nbeheaded, however). I don't recall whether they take vows of celibacy \n(like the virgin martrys) but it would make sense; they are a female \ncounterpart to the Seekers, as are the witches." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\n\nshe is Severian's cousin. There is intense mutual desire there but it is\n\nnever consummated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jolenta is a waitress not a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jolenta is an actress. We don't know her name when she was a waitress. The\n\nthin girl with straggling hair had only been a waitress for about a month\n\nand she recognizes Severian as a carnifex. Is there any evidence she had\n\nnot previously been a witch but left her guild in symmetry with Severian's\n\nstory? If not she is a viable candidate for Severa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt witches leave the Tower more easily than the Torturers. But that \nis a solid point: anyone who recognizes a carnifex so far from the \nCitadel might have had some history near the Citadel, and we don't know \nwhat she used to be a month earlier. The soldiers thought Severian was \nin carnifex costume, as did Agia, but Jolenta said \"One of you is a \ncarnifex.\"\n\nAny idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDA4D8B.1070501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-03T16:25:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<7AEAEE2B91D149E6B635561FAF6FC0CD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 9:49 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jolenta is a waitress not a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jolenta is an actress. We don't know her name when she was a \nwaitress. The\nthin girl with straggling hair had only been a waitress for about a \nmonth\nand she recognizes Severian as a carnifex. Is there any evidence she \nhad\nnot previously been a witch but left her guild in symmetry with \nSeverian's\nstory? If not she is a viable candidate for Severa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The waitress wasn’t an actress (two statements of hers indicate it) \nand there’s no indication that she hadn’t worked elsewhere as a \nwaitress before her current employment. However, I think you have \ninadvertently hit on something that indicates she was never a witch.\nPalaemon: ?Nowhere but in Nessus - nowhere but here in the Citadel - \nis there a chapter of our guild. Lesser places have no more than a \ncarnifex.\nSeverian is still wearing what he wore as a journeyman of the \nTorturers Guild. A witch would recognise him as a torturer. Jolenta \ncalls him a carnifex, the name used for an executioner/torturer \neverywhere else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good eye.\n\nBut a witch who recognizes a torturer outside the Citadel might not say \nso; if Jolenta is some kind of escaped (or even just a failed) witch, \nshe may not want to reveal too much knowledge to strangers that she \nwould then have to explain. Severian would certainly have noticed had \nshe said \"torturer\" (or Seeker) vs \"carnifex.\"\n\nYou'd think it would have come up later, however. Even tangentially or \ncryptically. I don't recall any odd conversations between them. Maybe \nshe is just poor and comes from an older part of the city where the \nCitadel is not just a legend." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9EB2C816-F083-4080-90FE-8B3BF08568A7@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T20:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<7AEAEE2B91D149E6B635561FAF6FC0CD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/03, ?s 14:49, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Palaemon: ?Nowhere but in Nessus - nowhere but here in the Citadel - \n is there a chapter of our guild. Lesser places have no more than a \ncarnifex.\n\nSeverian is still wearing what he wore as a journeyman of the \nTorturers Guild. A witch would recognise him as a torturer. \nJolenta calls him a carnifex, the name used for an executioner/ \ntorturer everywhere else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If those are the only two instances of the word, I'd say it's pretty \nconcluisive as to her not having been a witch - not that I see why she \nshould have been one. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDA8DB6.1080909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-03T20:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<9EB2C816-F083-4080-90FE-8B3BF08568A7@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 3:33 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/12/03, ?s 14:49, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Palaemon: ?Nowhere but in Nessus - nowhere but here in the Citadel \n- is there a chapter of our guild. Lesser places have no more than a \ncarnifex.\n\nSeverian is still wearing what he wore as a journeyman of the \nTorturers Guild. A witch would recognise him as a torturer. Jolenta \ncalls him a carnifex, the name used for an executioner/torturer \neverywhere else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If those are the only two instances of the word, I'd say it's pretty \nconcluisive as to her not having been a witch - not that I see why she \nshould have been one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurs to me that if we can argue Jolenta is Severa *because she was \na witch*, we are already accepting that Merryn is (the prime candidate \nfor) Severa.\n\nWhy? Because both arguments rely on the assumption that Severa is a witch." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDAC1B7.4030405@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T00:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"saw someone ahead of me sitting (as I first thought) upon a high stool. As I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A stepladder, this time. Is Rudesind standing or sitting? Perching could be either.\n\nIt is most normal to stand on a ladder, though a stepladder does offer the option\n\nof sitting. I think standing is more normal in the course of doing work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's correct, but Sev affirmitively writes that he was sitting. the \nrevision is in what he is sitting on, but not that he is sitting at all. \nStepladders are mostly higher than high stools, so in order to maintain \nsimilar appearnces, the person on the stepladder needs to be taller than \naverage in similar proportion.\n\nIf Rudesind is sitting on a stepladder smaller than a high stool, that \nindicates to me that he is trying to clean an area of canvas lower down \nthan usual, and is doing so to avoid stooping. this also is sometihng \nthat a taller person than average would be given to do since they have \nall the farther to stoop." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T01:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EDA8DB6.1080909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/03, ?s 20:59, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 3:33 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 2011/12/03, ?s 14:49, \"Gerry Quinn\" es \ncreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Palaemon: ?Nowhere but in Nessus - nowhere but here in the Citad \nel - is there a chapter of our guild. Lesser places have no more \n than a carnifex.\n\nSeverian is still wearing what he wore as a journeyman of the \nTorturers Guild. A witch would recognise him as a torturer. \nJolenta calls him a carnifex, the name used for an executioner/ \ntorturer everywhere else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If those are the only two instances of the word, I'd say it's \npretty concluisive as to her not having been a witch - not that I \nsee why she should have been one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurs to me that if we can argue Jolenta is Severa *because she \nwas a witch*, we are already accepting that Merryn is (the prime \ncandidate for) Severa.\n\nWhy? Because both arguments rely on the assumption that Severa is a \nwitch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which would only be weighty if she had been born in her morher's \ncaptivity. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T04:20:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"saw someone ahead of me sitting (as I first thought) upon a high stool. As I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That's correct, but Sev affirmitively writes that he was sitting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think he does. He says he \"first thought\" someone was sitting, implying this \n\nwas later proved incorrect. So Rudesind was standing but from a distance his shortness \n\nmade him look like he was sitting.\n\n \n\nIf he only meant to amend the stool to stepladder I think he would have written it: \n\n \n\n\"saw someone ahead of me sitting upon a high stool (as I first thought).\n\n \n\nThat's my reading. You might be right, Jeff. Perhaps Wolfe meant to describe Rudesind\n\nas being tall with that passage. Perhaps to match tall, old Ultan his fellow curator.\n\n \n\nBut since Rudesind:\n\n \n\n \"scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and \n\nwrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue\n\nveins\"\n\n \n\nhe just doesn't seem much like Ultan. Moreover, Severian mentions Ultan's height several\n\ntimes. I would think he would mention Rudesind's tallness in a similar direct matter if it\n\nwere so.\n\n \n\nTo me he seems a lot like Father Inire, who is short. And resemblence to Father Inire is NOT\n\nsomething Wolfe will call attention to, even if it is obvious (as for Rudesind and Dorcas'\n\nhusband). Moreover, Rudesin's a gaze is like a turtle, his hands as long as feet and his nose almost \n\ntouching his chin. I could see such features used to describe an alien.\n\n \n\n \n\nIt would be nice if we had someone else's opinion of Rudesind but the two armigers don't \n\nmention the guy on the ladder in the first meeing. The old Autarch doesn't mention him. \n\nAnd they are alone together in their second two meetings. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T14:25:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me he seems a lot like Father Inire, who is short. And resemblence to Father Inire is NOT\nsomething Wolfe will call attention to, even if it is obvious (as for Rudesind and Dorcas'\nhusband). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The above is a circular argument. We have no reason to suppose ab initio that Rudesind and Dorcas’s husband resemble Father Inire, even if they are old and short like a million other human men of Nessus, and therefore no reason to suppose that Wolfe would avoid mentioning it.\n\nIn fact, the only time we see someone who clearly seems to be Father Inire in disguise, he is wearing a mask that entirely covers his head. The likely implication is that Inire is identifiable as a cacogen when his face is visible. Does the text suggest anywhere that Inire can convincingly pass for human when his face is not hidden? [He does communicate with Agia, as noted in his letter, but there he implies that enhanced interrogative techniques were used.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T18:11:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me (Rudesind) seems a lot like Father Inire, who is short." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The above is a circular argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThere is nothing circular about it. It is a straight comparison. \n\nBoth Rudesind and Father Inire are old, bent and monkey-like. I\n\nthink it likely they are also both short. You see? No circle.\n\n \n\nNeither is that an argument. I am stating my opinion. I guess you \n\nare arguing that your opinion is better than mine. But it isn't a very\n\nstrong argument given the source. Your objectivity is severely lacking.\n\nYou really, really want to be right, even when such a thing is not\n\nachievable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, the only time we see someone who clearly seems to be Father Inire " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in disguise, he is wearing a mask that entirely covers his head." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHow do you manage to see clearly through a mask, Gerry? Or is it your opinion\n\nyou are stating, rather than making an argument?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The likely implication is that Inire is identifiable as a cacogen when his face " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is visible. Does the text suggest anywhere that Inire can convincingly pass for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "human when his face is not hidden? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOnly if you recognize all the places that Father Inire passes for human, which you\n\ndo not. Keep it simple, Gerry. You are comfortable with that and it gives you a\n\nsense of rightness which is very important to you. You already know the right\n\nanswers so there is no reason to continue challenging yourself in this manner. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF96461.4030608@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-27T06:23:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 10:20 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"saw someone ahead of me sitting (as I first thought) upon a high stool. As I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That's correct, but Sev affirmitively writes that he was sitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think he does. He says he \"first thought\" someone was sitting, implying this\n\nwas later proved incorrect. So Rudesind was standing but from a distance his shortness\n\nmade him look like he was sitting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. When diagramming the sentence, it is evident that the \nparentetical could modify either of the previous \"sitting\" or the \nsubsequent \"upon a high stool\", and the following sentence makes it \nclear that the stool was the mistaken thought since it is a stepladder \ninstead. This accounts for the \"as I thought\" conditional, ergo the \n\"sitting\" predicate stands unmodified. Rudesinde is sitting on a \nstepladder in the way that a person would be expected to sit on a high \nstool, and in so doing gives the impression that a stepladder is a high \nstool.\n\nHigh stools typically raise the occupant's head to close to a standing \nheight, making their seats about rump high. The smallest practical \nstepladder would be about two 8\" steps tall, while they go on up \nindefinitely, but given that when Severian speaks..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Excuse me,\" I said.\nHe turned and peered down at me in puzzlement. \"Know your voice, don't I?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind's head is still higher than Sev's head, so making the \"stool\" \nshorter makes his standing height taller still. Given that Sev's used to \nbeing taller than the bulk of non-exultant humanity, the expected height \nof a high stool occupant would be a head shorter than him, while \nRudesind seems to be at least a head taller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But since Rudesind:\n\n\n\n \"scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and\n\nwrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue\n\nveins\"\n\n\n\nhe just doesn't seem much like Ultan. Moreover, Severian mentions Ultan's height several\n\ntimes. I would think he would mention Rudesind's tallness in a similar direct matter if it\n\nwere so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he only mentions Baldanders' tallness once or twice despite him \nbeing very tall indeed.\n\nIt may be that Severian thinks of tallness as being outranked in visual \nmagnitude by Baldanders' overall hugeness and by Rudesind's gangliness.\n\nBut he does mention Rudesind's oversized parts (hands as long as feet, \ndisporportionate limbs and neck) but does not mention any parts that \nwould make him any smaller overall.\n\nSo yes, he's similar to Inire in his simian physique, but he's easily \n2-3 times his size." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<260446A3-D2A3-468C-BA43-A25C42D5BB37@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-12-27T16:05:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EF96461.4030608@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would one sit on a \"step\" ladder, let alone do so while actively cleaning a painting?\n\nTo me: 1. Rudesind is standing on a step ladder; and 2. Severian thinking he at first sees a man sitting on a high stool (I'm envisioning a bar stool) implies that (combined with the monkey like long arms and the way he \"scrambles\") that Rudesind is gangly and short indeed.\n\nAnd not at all like the more exultant seeming (even in name) Master Ultan. Ultan seemed more like Severian's grandfather while Rudesind seemed like Inire's brother.\n\nOne represents a stunted commoner while the other represents a weathered person of import. At least to me.\n\nBut what of Cyby!?!?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/3/2011 10:20 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"saw someone ahead of me sitting (as I first thought) upon a high stool. As I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That's correct, but Sev affirmitively writes that he was sitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think he does. He says he \"first thought\" someone was sitting, implying this\n\nwas later proved incorrect. So Rudesind was standing but from a distance his shortness\n\nmade him look like he was sitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps. When diagramming the sentence, it is evident that the parentetical could modify either of the previous \"sitting\" or the subsequent \"upon a high stool\", and the following sentence makes it clear that the stool was the mistaken thought since it is a stepladder instead. This accounts for the \"as I thought\" conditional, ergo the \"sitting\" predicate stands unmodified. Rudesinde is sitting on a stepladder in the way that a person would be expected to sit on a high stool, and in so doing gives the impression that a stepladder is a high stool.\n\nHigh stools typically raise the occupant's head to close to a standing height, making their seats about rump high. The smallest practical stepladder would be about two 8\" steps tall, while they go on up indefinitely, but given that when Severian speaks..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Excuse me,\" I said.\nHe turned and peered down at me in puzzlement. \"Know your voice, don't I?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind's head is still higher than Sev's head, so making the \"stool\" shorter makes his standing height taller still. Given that Sev's used to being taller than the bulk of non-exultant humanity, the expected height of a high stool occupant would be a head shorter than him, while Rudesind seems to be at least a head taller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But since Rudesind:\n\n\n\n \"scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and\n\nwrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue\n\nveins\"\n\n\n\nhe just doesn't seem much like Ultan. Moreover, Severian mentions Ultan's height several\n\ntimes. I would think he would mention Rudesind's tallness in a similar direct matter if it\n\nwere so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he only mentions Baldanders' tallness once or twice despite him being very tall indeed.\n\nIt may be that Severian thinks of tallness as being outranked in visual magnitude by Baldanders' overall hugeness and by Rudesind's gangliness.\n\nBut he does mention Rudesind's oversized parts (hands as long as feet, disporportionate limbs and neck) but does not mention any parts that would make him any smaller overall.\n\nSo yes, he's similar to Inire in his simian physique, but he's easily 2-3 times his size.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EFA154E.1040801@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-27T18:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<260446A3-D2A3-468C-BA43-A25C42D5BB37@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/27/2011 10:05 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWhy would one sit on a \"step\" ladder, let alone do so while actively cleaning a painting?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because sitting allows an old man to work longer at a stretch, and there \nis nowhere else to sit within reach of paintings high on a wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me: 1. Rudesind is standing on a step ladder; and 2. Severian thinking he at first sees a man sitting on a high stool (I'm envisioning a bar stool) implies that (combined with the monkey like long arms and the way he \"scrambles\") that Rudesind is gangly and short indeed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that you are uniquely suited as a motion picture artist \nto illustrate your hypothesis." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00B2F9B6-BA7C-44AC-B8F2-C2E2ACE5AD26@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-12-27T21:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EFA154E.1040801@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Jeff, is it your opinion that Rudesind is not short? I'm confused. I mean, I get the flaws you pointed out but did you have a counter view? Sorry.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/27/2011 10:05 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would one sit on a \"step\" ladder, let alone do so while actively cleaning a painting?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because sitting allows an old man to work longer at a stretch, and there is nowhere else to sit within reach of paintings high on a wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me: 1. Rudesind is standing on a step ladder; and 2. Severian thinking he at first sees a man sitting on a high stool (I'm envisioning a bar stool) implies that (combined with the monkey like long arms and the way he \"scrambles\") that Rudesind is gangly and short indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that you are uniquely suited as a motion picture artist to illustrate your hypothesis.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EFA9845.6010404@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-28T04:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<00B2F9B6-BA7C-44AC-B8F2-C2E2ACE5AD26@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/27/2011 3:55 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo Jeff, is it your opinion that Rudesind is not short? I'm confused. I mean, I get the flaws you pointed out but did you have a counter view? Sorry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Rudesind is tall because he has big body parts and when he sits \natop a stepladder he makes it look like it is merely a high stool.\n\nPerhaps we can both post photos of people on ladders in an attempt to \nreconcile the interpretations. As a director of commercial videos, you \ndoubtless have numerous occasions to see a variety of crew people on a \nvariety of step ladders. As it happens, I work with digital imaging \nmyself and can expect to record people of various proportions parched on \nstepladders for a demonstration this coming spring semester." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2C6673BF-F636-4487-B529-D037F84B24E6@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-12-28T05:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EFA9845.6010404@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 27, 2011, at 10:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI think Rudesind is tall because he has big body parts and when he sits atop a stepladder he makes it look like it is merely a high stool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may very well be. But let me string together all of the descriptions I could find and just share my perception. Before I do, however, has anyone else commented on the fact that Rudesind refers to the Urth in the painting as \"your blue Urth,\" as though it belongs to Severian and not him? Does this prompt anyone to wonder whether the masters may not be Urthlings? Or, at least, Rudesind himself, as the servant to a cacogen?\n\nAnyhow...\n\n\"... I came upon an old man perched on a high ladder.\"\n\n- While perched does not explicitly infer sitting nor standing, I can't help but read this passage as a small old man standing atop a stepladder. Your reasoning would imply that Severian assumed an old man appeared standing up on a stool instead of sitting on a ladder. It seems an awkward impression for Severian to have, but if a Short man was standing atop a stepladder, it might look like someone sitting on a stool from afar.\n\n\"He had a weak glance, reminding me of the turtles we sometimes frightened on the banks of Gyoll, and a nose and chin that nearly met.\"\n\n- While a weak, turtle-like glance doesn't refer to height, I find the description more Lilliputian than leggy.\n\n\"... he scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n\n- Scrambled errs on the side of someone slight of stature, and an aged monkey implies a hunched-over posture (I can't think of any monkeys taller than a human when hunched over). Maybe if he stood erect he would be less stout, but as it stands he's a hunched over hook-nosed elderly man to me.\n\n\"As I drew nearer, I found that what I had taken to be a stool was a stepladder, and that the old man perched on it was cleaning one of the pictures.\"\n\n- Here he is, perched again. Odd that the eidetic Severian finds a familiar prop in a familiar setting with a familiar old man so unfamiliar on first glance, though. Plus, I'm finding the recurrence of that word \"perched\" a bit peculiar now.\n\n\"Gripping the sides of the ladder, he began to descend, his sponge still in his hand.\"\n\n- Would a tall man grip the sides of a stepladder? I'm not so sure a short person would either, may be a simple slip up in the prop Gene had in mind through these scenes?\n\n\"He thumped his own bosom with the sponge, then bent close to me, whispering though there was no one but ourselves in the long corridor.\"\n\n- Now here is something interesting. If he indeed bent close to Severian to whisper, it stands to reason he may be in fact TALLER than the torturer's apprentice. Assuming he bent to reach Severian's ear, and didn't just bend as a return to his base posture after thumping his chest.\n\n\"He pulled the edge of my cloak, and I followed him.\"\n\n- And a few sentences later, Rudesind is tugging on the edge of Severian's cloak. But what edge? The hem? the in-seam? Unclear, but feels like a short person tugging at a taller person's garb to me.\n\n\"He made a countrified bow.\"\n\n- I dunno, but an informal, awkward bow also feels stunted and clumsy, but I am beginning to think I am simply biased about wanting this man to resemble Inire now (or Fechin or whomever else has monkey-like features and a weathered visage).\n\n\"The old man hung his head and pulled at his thin beard. I could see the dry skin of his face rise in hollow-sided, tiny cones as it sought to follow the white hairs.\"\n\n- Tiny, coned indentations on his face implies to me a smallish head. Again not connected to height, but consistent with a series of shriveled up descriptions.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-28T12:44:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EFA9845.6010404@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nSent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:17 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/27/2011 3:55 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo Jeff, is it your opinion that Rudesind is not short? I'm confused. I mean, \nI get the flaws you pointed out but did you have a counter view? Sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Rudesind is tall because he has big body parts and when he sits \natop a stepladder he makes it look like it is merely a high stool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can both post photos of people on ladders in an attempt to \nreconcile the interpretations. As a director of commercial videos, you \ndoubtless have numerous occasions to see a variety of crew people on a \nvariety of step ladders. As it happens, I work with digital imaging \nmyself and can expect to record people of various proportions parched on \nstepladders for a demonstration this coming spring semester." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or apply Rule 34 and google for “nude on stepladder”.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<339F086710F040519CC9CA8443766EEB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-28T12:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<2C6673BF-F636-4487-B529-D037F84B24E6@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn \n\n\n\"The old man hung his head and pulled at his thin beard. I could see the dry skin of his face rise in hollow-sided, tiny cones as it sought to follow the white hairs.\"\n\n\nAh, there’s the giveaway: Rudesind has the distinctly mammalian characteristic of a beard.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-28T13:31:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<339F086710F040519CC9CA8443766EEB@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: has anyone else commented on the fact that Rudesind refers to the Urth \nin the painting as \"your blue Urth,\" as though it belongs to Severian and not him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI noticed also and it has been a part of my Father Inire theory. With recognition\nthat it could also simply be a folksy way of talking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am beginning to think I am simply biased about wanting this man to resemble Inire now \n(or Fechin or whomever else has monkey-like features and a weathered visage)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like this part of your post the best. Easy to understand your doubts. I think they are \nexactly what Gene Wolfe hopes to inspire. I applaud your method though. I think it is the \ncorrect one, i.e. to collect all the salient information pertaining to a mystery in one place \nand ponder it. Of course I agree with your assessment that placed all together, Rudesind seems \nmore short than tall (and perhaps more alien than human).\n \nToo often the opposite approach to Wolfe's mysteries is used, i.e. a particular position is\ndecided upon, then snips from the text are cherry picked to support that position, leaving\ncontradictory evidence out.\n \nI often get the impression that Wolfe tries to inspire doubt in his readers in a parallel to\nthe doubts a man of faith must have, surrounded by a cynical, scientific world. The one\nslim source of faith Wolfe has provided is found in the two interviews where he reveals that \nDr. Marsch has indeed been imitated and replaced by an abo.\n \nHe deliberately placed so many seeds of doubt in the text regarding this, that a few very \nintelligent (albeit skeptical-leaning) long-term contributors on this board insisted that it did \nnot happen. (these skeptics dropped off the board soon after the interviews came to light) \n \nI personally (in the real world) tend toward skepticism. But I believe Wolfe has laid traps\nthroughout his work designed to snare people exactly like me (and Dr. Crane). I think his \nmessage is that skepticism is a safe and understandable course to take, but if you eschew faith \nyou will be missing out on many miracles and wonders (and horrors?). I was impressed with Marc's \nrecent assertion that he fully embraces both science and religion. He isn't likely to miss out on \nanything! :- )) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F037E15.60509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-01-03T22:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4EF96461.4030608@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/3/2012 1:59 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, January 3, 2012 10:46, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/27/2011 1:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But he does mention Rudesind's oversized parts (hands as long as feet,\ndisporportionate limbs and neck) but does not mention any parts that\nwould make him any smaller overall.\n\nSo yes, he's similar to Inire in his simian physique, but he's easily\n2-3 times his size." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this analysis is correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you!\n\nJust now it has occurred to me that perhaps the shared simian qualities\nare meant not to link Rudesind to Inire so much as to link them and the\nvarious other characters with primate appearances, and indirectly but no\nless strongly with the other persons characterized with animal features to\nanimals in general.\n\nThat is, I think it's part of the intended subtext that all these created\nbeings are still humble beasts to some extent, but for the grace of the\nIncreate who gives them a soul and the capacity for good and evil. Inire's\nmore pronounced animal features despite his lofty origins may symbolize\nhis squandering or misuse of that gift, in particular his hand in the\ncreation of the mastiff men and the other underpeople. His undertaking to\nlift them up closer to man has left him below man in the Increate's\nesteem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. The theme of raising up and lowering down Man---or at very least \nthe stretching of the definition of Man---is strong in BNS. Wolfe does \nseem to want us to be always conscious of a great scale or Chain and \nthink about our development and our future: the stars above, the abyss \nbelow.\n\nHowever, I can't say I've noticed a motif of describing characters in \nterms of animals. Dr Talos is certainly one such. For all we know Inire \nis an australopithecine. Perhaps the intent is merely to emphasize our \nanimal nature as well as our distance from the Increate?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-04T13:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4F037E15.60509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The theme of raising up and lowering down Man---or at very least \nthe stretching of the definition of Man---is strong in BNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI really think you are onto something with this. Tzadkiel is meant to depict a\nhigher being than humanity and he/she demonstrates a full spectrum of expression\nfrom lower being to human to angel. (the other spectrum he/she varies on is size\nbut perhaps that is a separate discussion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the stars above, the abyss below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYesod, Briah, Abaddon= Olympus, Earth, Hades or Asgard, Midgard, Niflheim/Hel etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I can't say I've noticed a motif of describing characters in terms of animals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think we do see this and it is associated with characters which are higher beings than\nhumans. Tzadkiel and The Cumaean are explicitly shown in an animalistic form. The\nmegatherians are, by definition, beastial. Melito's angel takes an eagle form. The \narmiger's daughter has her lark form. We must wonder about \"Mother Pyrexia\" and what\nshe turned into while confined.\n \nI think an extrapolation of this theme makes it almost necessary to wonder what monkey\nform Father Inire might be taking. Why would other aliens take animal form and not him?\nI find Talos' vulpine nature and some animalistic comparisons for other characters to be \ninvitations to speculate on their alien/angelic/pagan god nature.\n \nIMHO, the snake and bird and fish (and Pig) associations found in Long/Short Sun for \nsuperhuman characters continue this theme. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-04T15:45:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In terms of animal forms in the work, the most striking for me are the\nmasks of the hieros, which seem hideous monsters, but are creatures of\nurth. So here the alien presence is directly linked to being masked as an\nanimal. Of course I think there ius more to it than that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 4, 2012 5:03 AM, \"Lee Berman\" wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: The theme of raising up and lowering down Man---or at\nvery least\nthe stretching of the definition of Man---is strong in BNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really think you are onto something with this. Tzadkiel is meant to\ndepict a\nhigher being than humanity and he/she demonstrates a full spectrum of\nexpression\nfrom lower being to human to angel. (the other spectrum he/she varies on is\nsize\nbut perhaps that is a separate discussion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the stars above, the abyss below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yesod, Briah, Abaddon= Olympus, Earth, Hades or Asgard, Midgard,\nNiflheim/Hel etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I can't say I've noticed a motif of describing characters in\nterms of animals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we do see this and it is associated with characters which are\nhigher beings than\nhumans. Tzadkiel and The Cumaean are explicitly shown in an animalistic\nform. The\nmegatherians are, by definition, beastial. Melito's angel takes an eagle\nform. The\narmiger's daughter has her lark form. We must wonder about \"Mother\nPyrexia\" and what\nshe turned into while confined.\n\nI think an extrapolation of this theme makes it almost necessary to wonder\nwhat monkey\nform Father Inire might be taking. Why would other aliens take animal form\nand not him?\nI find Talos' vulpine nature and some animalistic comparisons for other\ncharacters to be\ninvitations to speculate on their alien/angelic/pagan god nature.\n\nIMHO, the snake and bird and fish (and Pig) associations found in\nLong/Short Sun for\nsuperhuman characters continue this theme." } ] }, { "message_id": "<34B50189658E48BE96A83CC74648C137@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-09T19:28:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I can't say I've noticed a motif of describing characters in terms of animals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we do see this and it is associated with characters which are higher beings than\nhumans. Tzadkiel and The Cumaean are explicitly shown in an animalistic form. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The megatherians are, by definition, beastial. \n\nSince we don’t know who the megatherians were, that is hardly certain. While the name suggests beasts, the fact of a biography suggests otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Melito's angel takes an eagle form. The \narmiger's daughter has her lark form. We must wonder about \"Mother Pyrexia\" and what\nshe turned into while confined." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first two aren’t characters. That said, the humans Rudesind and Fechin are also likened to monkeys. And Agia turns gracefully like a cat. I don’t think there’s any particular motif there, though. People in life and in books are not infrequently likened to animals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think an extrapolation of this theme makes it almost necessary to wonder what monkey\nform Father Inire might be taking. Why would other aliens take animal form and not him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is described as looking like a monkey (admittedly he is so described by someone who has never seen him). But can it really be considered unusual for aliens to be described in terms of animal analogies? A non-human living creature is likely to remind us of some sort of animal. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find Talos' vulpine nature and some animalistic comparisons for other characters to be \ninvitations to speculate on their alien/angelic/pagan god nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, the undines don’t seem to be likened to any particular animal, nor are the sea monsters Abaia etc. Nor is Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IMHO, the snake and bird and fish (and Pig) associations found in Long/Short Sun for \nsuperhuman characters continue this theme. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of the gods have strong animal associations, but others don’t have anything much.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T17:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<34B50189658E48BE96A83CC74648C137@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: While the name (\"megatherian\") suggests beasts, the fact of a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "biography suggests otherwise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't see why. Can't a beast have a biography? Especially a sentient beast.\n\nThe examples of this are too numerous to mention but \"mega\" implies large size.\n\nIt isn't too hard to figure out which notable character is really large and \n\nnamed for an earth-inspired animal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Melito's angel takes an eagle form. The armiger's daughter has her lark form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The(se) first two aren’t characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh. Funny. I know there is more than one definition for the word \"character\" but\n\nI meant the one which refers to persons or beings in a story. Severian, Melito and\n\nthe angel are all characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the humans Rudesind and Fechin are also likened to monkeys. And Agia turns gracefully " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "like a cat. I don’t think there’s any particular motif there, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, we aren't discussing similes, at least I am not. Think more in terms of dog men and\n\ncat women and man apes. And Tzadkiel, who obviously has a beastly component or two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, the undines don’t seem to be likened to any particular animal" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh. I find that a rather fishy conclusion. ;-)\n\nOr perhaps we should consider the Order Sirenia (manatees)? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<23007236E0F942C38BE2674BF207C037@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T19:58:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: While the name (\"megatherian\") suggests beasts, the fact of a \nbiography suggests otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see why. Can't a beast have a biography? Especially a sentient beast.\nThe examples of this are too numerous to mention but \"mega\" implies large size.\nIt isn't too hard to figure out which notable character is really large and \nnamed for an earth-inspired animal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians” is simply *wrong* as a possible name for a biography of Abaia, Erebus, and the rest, for a multitude of reasons. They are never referred to as “the Megatherians” either. And we also know that there are even animals called megatheres at large in the grounds of the House absolute.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }