{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6126", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6126, "subject": "Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "messages": 10, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-11-26T05:13:51+00:00", "last": "2011-11-30T12:31:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001801ccabfa$32535ec0$a4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-26T05:13:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before I get to the scene in question, I must first go forward in the story\nto a later scene, then back to another incident before the scene in\nquestion.\n\nSilk had just returned from the lake, on the day of Rose's funeral. He went\ninto his manse bedroom to clean up and change clothes. Mucor appeared in his\nshaving mirror. The first thing she said was, \"This isn't the first time\nI've seen you with no clothes on.\" (CALDE, ch. 2, 71) That got me wondering\nwhen she might have ever seen him naked, so I started backtracking. The next\ntime Silk saw her after Blood's villa was briefly in the face of Teasel's\ndad. From there he went straight home and took a bath and went to bed naked.\n\nHe had some weird dreams, then what seems to be a dream within a dream that\nincorporated real-world, real-time elements, such as hard dry rain coming in\nthe window that was actually gravel tossed by Crane. Just before the \"dry\nrain\" it was: \"A black-clad imp with a blood-red sword stood upon his chest\nto study him, its head cocked to one side. He stirred and it fled,\nfluttering like a little flag.\" (NIGHTSIDE, ch. 9, 220) That black-clad imp\nsuggests Oreb with his red beak. Marble calling Silk's name finally woke\nhim.\n\nSilk didn't know he had injured the bird's wing with the walking stick\nbefore he went to see Teasel. While Marble was watching Crane treat Silk's\ninjuries, she saw Oreb hopping in what Silk specified was the stairwell\n(223). The bird made its way from the stairwell into the kitchen (229), then\nmanaged to fly back up to the top of the larder (230), dislocated wing and\nall, and had to be coaxed down so Crane could treat his wing.\n\nMy thinking is that Mucor possessed Oreb, got him to hop up the stairs and\nonto Silk's chest while he slept, and that is when she saw him naked. This\nblend of dream and reality also prefigures the later scene in the manse with\nOreb, Mucor and Pike. I suggest that Mucor might have possessed Oreb that\nnight at the manse, damaged wing and all, and that Oreb did not remember the\npossession, just as Remora didn't remember when Mucor possessed him. That\nOreb could fly to the top of the larder with a dislocated wing proves that\nhe could fly well enough to get up the stairs with a splinted wing, even if\nonly by hopping up them.\n\nIf you want to say that Mucor's \"seen you with no clothes on\" meant only\nthat she had seen Silk when he was undressed but not totally naked, fine.\nThen you can dismiss the the black-clad imp Silk imagined while he was\nsleeping after getting back from Blood's villa and go straight to the next\ntime Silk slept, which was the night of Oreb, Mucor and Pike, and chalk the\nblack-clad imp up as just part of a crazy dream. It was just as hot that\nnight and he had undressed for bed. This is known because he stopped to put\nhis trousers on before he went downstairs to look for Oreb (LAKE, ch. 1,\n32).\n\nEither way, Mucor had seen him without his clothes on in the few days\nbetween Silk's first sight of her at Blood's villa and her appearance in his\nshaving mirror. She had been keeping tabs on Silk the whole time, at\nTeasel's home, in the tunnels, at Orchid's and at the manse.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D7CC847A06B44009D005D21133E5B56@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-26T16:56:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<001801ccabfa$32535ec0$a4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Roy C. Lackey " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before I get to the scene in question, I must first go forward in the story\nto a later scene, then back to another incident before the scene in\nquestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk had just returned from the lake, on the day of Rose's funeral. He went\ninto his manse bedroom to clean up and change clothes. Mucor appeared in his\nshaving mirror. The first thing she said was, \"This isn't the first time\nI've seen you with no clothes on.\" (CALDE, ch. 2, 71) That got me wondering\nwhen she might have ever seen him naked, so I started backtracking. The next\ntime Silk saw her after Blood's villa was briefly in the face of Teasel's\ndad. From there he went straight home and took a bath and went to bed naked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He had some weird dreams, then what seems to be a dream within a dream that\nincorporated real-world, real-time elements, such as hard dry rain coming in\nthe window that was actually gravel tossed by Crane. Just before the \"dry\nrain\" it was: \"A black-clad imp with a blood-red sword stood upon his chest\nto study him, its head cocked to one side. He stirred and it fled,\nfluttering like a little flag.\" (NIGHTSIDE, ch. 9, 220) That black-clad imp\nsuggests Oreb with his red beak. Marble calling Silk's name finally woke\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk didn't know he had injured the bird's wing with the walking stick\nbefore he went to see Teasel. While Marble was watching Crane treat Silk's\ninjuries, she saw Oreb hopping in what Silk specified was the stairwell\n(223). The bird made its way from the stairwell into the kitchen (229), then\nmanaged to fly back up to the top of the larder (230), dislocated wing and\nall, and had to be coaxed down so Crane could treat his wing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thinking is that Mucor possessed Oreb, got him to hop up the stairs and\nonto Silk's chest while he slept, and that is when she saw him naked. This\nblend of dream and reality also prefigures the later scene in the manse with\nOreb, Mucor and Pike. I suggest that Mucor might have possessed Oreb that\nnight at the manse, damaged wing and all, and that Oreb did not remember the\npossession, just as Remora didn't remember when Mucor possessed him. That\nOreb could fly to the top of the larder with a dislocated wing proves that\nhe could fly well enough to get up the stairs with a splinted wing, even if\nonly by hopping up them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way, Mucor had seen him without his clothes on in the few days\nbetween Silk's first sight of her at Blood's villa and her appearance in his\nshaving mirror. She had been keeping tabs on Silk the whole time, at\nTeasel's home, in the tunnels, at Orchid's and at the manse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes a lot of sense. Silk’s rationalisation of Oreb’s actions is correct, then, but Oreb either forgot or didn’t accept that his actions while possessed were things he did, so he did not admit to them. The imp is certainly Oreb, and Wolfe makes much of Silk’s nudity in the scene.\nI’m inclined to believe it. And that means we can connect all three visitors that night — a possessed Oreb, fleeing after being abandoned by Mucor in favour of a ghostly appearance. And Pike’s ghost appears because he is Mucor’s grandfather.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED3B0CD.3040501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-28T16:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<001801ccabfa$32535ec0$a4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2011 11:13 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSilk had just returned from the lake, on the day of Rose's funeral. He went\ninto his manse bedroom to clean up and change clothes. Mucor appeared in his\nshaving mirror. The first thing she said was, \"This isn't the first time\nI've seen you with no clothes on.\" (CALDE, ch. 2, 71) That got me wondering\nwhen she might have ever seen him naked, so I started backtracking. The next\ntime Silk saw her after Blood's villa was briefly in the face of Teasel's\ndad. From there he went straight home and took a bath and went to bed naked.\n\nHe had some weird dreams, then what seems to be a dream within a dream that\nincorporated real-world, real-time elements, such as hard dry rain coming in\nthe window that was actually gravel tossed by Crane. Just before the \"dry\nrain\" it was: \"A black-clad imp with a blood-red sword stood upon his chest\nto study him, its head cocked to one side. He stirred and it fled,\nfluttering like a little flag.\" (NIGHTSIDE, ch. 9, 220) That black-clad imp\nsuggests Oreb with his red beak. Marble calling Silk's name finally woke\nhim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really like this because it attempts to answer Mucor's comment about \nseeing Silk naked. Now, I'll keep my eye out for other references to \nSilk being naked.\nAs I sense is the case with you, I'm bothered by Mucor not actually \nmaking an appearance, but it could be argued (if there are no other \nscenes where Silk is said to be naked) that THIS is the evidence of her \npresence there. I agree that the black clad imp refers indirectly to \nOreb, but I interpret the \"imp\" as evidence that Oreb is possessed by a \n\"daemon\" -- an independently running background computer process (eg \n\"Pas\").\nI don't know if this has been mentioned before but the black clad imp on \nSilk's chest is a reference to Henry Fuseli's painting, Nightmare:\nhttp://easthighschoolap.wikispaces.com/file/view/752px-John_Henry_Fuseli_-_The_Nightmare.JPG/145907447/752px-John_Henry_Fuseli_-_The_Nightmare.JPG\n\nHowever, I'm not convinced that this means Oreb was physically in his \nroom at the time. It /could/. I'm not sure it offers us any narrative \nvalue in saying that, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk didn't know he had injured the bird's wing with the walking stick\nbefore he went to see Teasel. While Marble was watching Crane treat Silk's\ninjuries, she saw Oreb hopping in what Silk specified was the stairwell\n(223). The bird made its way from the stairwell into the kitchen (229), then\nmanaged to fly back up to the top of the larder (230), dislocated wing and\nall, and had to be coaxed down so Crane could treat his wing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. This brings us to the PROBLEM with your theory that I hinted at in \nmy last comment. There has never been any doubt that Oreb *could* make \nit into Silk's room. And Silk is able to rationalize that Oreb *could* \nfly a bit out of the window. Based on his reaction, it seems that he \nsaw Oreb do more than flutter away. I'll follow this up in my next \ncomment..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thinking is that Mucor possessed Oreb, got him to hop up the stairs and\nonto Silk's chest while he slept, and that is when she saw him naked. This\nblend of dream and reality also prefigures the later scene in the manse with\nOreb, Mucor and Pike. I suggest that Mucor might have possessed Oreb that\nnight at the manse, damaged wing and all, and that Oreb did not remember the\npossession, just as Remora didn't remember when Mucor possessed him. That\nOreb could fly to the top of the larder with a dislocated wing proves that\nhe could fly well enough to get up the stairs with a splinted wing, even if\nonly by hopping up them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are right that Mucor *could* have possessed Oreb, but then\n\nThe tricky part has always been two-fold:\n\n1) Silk's rationalization about how Oreb could have flown out the window \nis a classic Wolfean signal that that is NOT what happened.\n\n2) This leaves open the big questions:\n a) What was Oreb doing there in the first place?\n b) Why did he lie?\n\nThe second question is a biggie. Silk made it clear that he wouldn't \npunish Oreb for being up there. An explanation that leaves that dangling \nis barely an explanation for me.\nIn tying Mucor's comment (although, not your favorite theory) to the \nnight of Pike's appearance, You've made a gallant attempt explain the \nfirst question; however:\n\n a) Why would Mucor NEED to possess Oreb to keep tabs on Silk? We \nKNOW that she can astral travel. This seems to be a needless, \nunestablished complication just to tie up a loose end.\n\n b) Also unestablished is that Mucor can possess beings and then \nchain into astral presence. Why would she do that?\n\n c) Your assertion that the difference between Mucor's two astral \ndisapperations at the Trivigaunte floater/in the tunnels and the one in \nSilk's room is...well...it is quite obviously untrue. It does match up \nalmost perfectly with the disapperation of Pike's ghost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want to say that Mucor's \"seen you with no clothes on\" meant only\nthat she had seen Silk when he was undressed but not totally naked, fine.\nThen you can dismiss the the black-clad imp Silk imagined while he was\nsleeping after getting back from Blood's villa and go straight to the next\ntime Silk slept, which was the night of Oreb, Mucor and Pike, and chalk the\nblack-clad imp up as just part of a crazy dream. It was just as hot that\nnight and he had undressed for bed. This is known because he stopped to put\nhis trousers on before he went downstairs to look for Oreb (LAKE, ch. 1,\n32)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said before, the above isn't even YOUR favorite theory of when \nMucor saw Silk naked. So--for you--it doesn't really tie Mucor to the \nnight in question. To your reading, it means that Mucor should always be \nthought of as possibly there at any time, so why not then as well? Okay. \nThat's tenuous, but defensible.\n\nBut if Wolfe had Mucor, Oreb, and Pike's ghost appear to Silk on the \nsame night (like Dickensian ghosts of Christmas) --two at the same \ntime--and each having little or nothing to do with each other, it would \nbe the greatest red herring Wolfe has ever laid on his readers to my memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way, Mucor had seen him without his clothes on in the few days\nbetween Silk's first sight of her at Blood's villa and her appearance in his\nshaving mirror. She had been keeping tabs on Silk the whole time, at\nTeasel's home, in the tunnels, at Orchid's and at the manse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, one reason I REALLY like this construct is because it openly in \nenrolls in you in the club of readers who weave background narrative \nout-of-page in order to tie events and statements together. And I'm \nstanding at the door with open arms because your weavings are likely to \nbe useful to me.\n\nNext I'll address your timeline and your comment about the Rajan \nclaiming to insert himself in Fava's tale." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501ccae54$c9a632a0$85d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-11-29T05:07:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3B0CD.3040501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nIf you want to say that Mucor's \"seen you with no clothes on\" meant only\nthat she had seen Silk when he was undressed but not totally naked,\nfine.\nThen you can dismiss the the black-clad imp Silk imagined while he was\nsleeping after getting back from Blood's villa and go straight to the\nnext\ntime Silk slept, which was the night of Oreb, Mucor and Pike, and chalk\nthe\nblack-clad imp up as just part of a crazy dream. It was just as hot that\nnight and he had undressed for bed. This is known because he stopped to\nput\nhis trousers on before he went downstairs to look for Oreb (LAKE, ch. 1,\n32)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said before, the above isn't even YOUR favorite theory of when\nMucor saw Silk naked. So--for you--it doesn't really tie Mucor to the\nnight in question. To your reading, it means that Mucor should always be\nthought of as possibly there at any time, so why not then as well? Okay.\nThat's tenuous, but defensible.\n\nBut if Wolfe had Mucor, Oreb, and Pike's ghost appear to Silk on the\nsame night (like Dickensian ghosts of Christmas) --two at the same\ntime--and each having little or nothing to do with each other, it would\nbe the greatest red herring Wolfe has ever laid on his readers to my\nmemory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the fact remains that Pike's ghost wasn't seen at the same time or place\nas Oreb and Mucor. Pike's ghost came minutes later, on the landing, and\nneither Oreb nor Mucor were with him.\n\nAs Silk told Mamelta, Pike was dead. Neither Oreb nor Mucor were dead on the\nnight in question in the manse. The sounds of floorboards and Pike's bed\ncreaking and a closing door are the sorts of things associated with ghosts.\n\nWhy would Silkhorn, astrally traveling in time, bother to do those things?\nIt was Pike's bed in Pike's room, not Silk's. Silk had no personal emotional\nties to Pike's bedroom, but Pike's ghost might.\n\nPike's hat ties Silk to Hy at Blood's villa, where she had a shrine to\nKypris. Silk didn't like thinking about what uses the hat might be put to by\na whore and her clients, and the goddess was in her that night at the villa.\nKypris may also have been in Rose at the time of her dalliance with young\nPike, which resulted in Blood. The dropped hat and old man's smile may have\nbeen his way of saying that he understood Silk's attraction to Hy because\nmuch the same thing had happened to him decades ago.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<83B35323C377465788DE6DD1944D9717@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T14:24:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<4ED3B0CD.3040501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[to Roy] You are right that Mucor *could* have possessed Oreb, but then\n\nThe tricky part has always been two-fold:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Silk's rationalization about how Oreb could have flown out the window \nis a classic Wolfean signal that that is NOT what happened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) This leaves open the big questions:\n a) What was Oreb doing there in the first place?\n b) Why did he lie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The second question is a biggie. Silk made it clear that he wouldn't \npunish Oreb for being up there. An explanation that leaves that dangling \nis barely an explanation for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if Mucor possessed Oreb, then you do have an error in Silk’s rationalisation as required — and you also have an explanation for why Oreb lied (or forgot).\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED50053.7020601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T15:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<001501ccae54$c9a632a0$85d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2011 11:07 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBut the fact remains that Pike's ghost wasn't seen at the same time or \nplace as Oreb and Mucor. Pike's ghost came minutes later, on the \nlanding, and neither Oreb nor Mucor were with him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Define \"the same time or place\". It is quite reasonable that they were \nunder the same roof of a small residence at the same time. It's just \nthat Silk didn't hear him until \"minutes later\".\n\nAdditionally, /Silk himself/ believed the appearances were connected. He \npostulated that Mucor had somehow /summoned/ Pike's ghost. This is a \nWolfe novel; we should expect that supposition to be /ironically/ true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Silk told Mamelta, Pike was dead. Neither Oreb nor Mucor were dead on the\nnight in question in the manse. The sounds of floorboards and Pike's bed\ncreaking and a closing door are the sorts of things associated with ghosts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are things associated with ghosts. But the only time a ghost's \nappearance is connected with cheerfully waving while wearing an old hat \nwhich falls to the ground as he disappears in a silvery mist....the only \ntime /that/ is associated with ghosts is when Eric Von Zipper and the \nMalibu Rat Pack is involved in the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would Silkhorn, astrally traveling in time, bother to do those things?\nIt was Pike's bed in Pike's room, not Silk's. Silk had no personal emotional\nties to Pike's bedroom, but Pike's ghost might." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because /Silk/ was in his room. The question is not why was the Rajan \nwas hiding there, but what he was at the manse in the first place. I've \ntaken a shot at answering that. However, most importantly, it's not \nactually Silk who is astrally traveling. Silk's memories are there and \nthe memory of Horn's memories. But he is also a Neighbor. You might as \nwell ask why Rose-in-Marble would be interested in marrying a chem soldier." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED54FE6.7010805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T21:34:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<83B35323C377465788DE6DD1944D9717@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 8:24 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[to Roy] You are right that Mucor *could* have possessed Oreb, but then\n\nThe tricky part has always been two-fold:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) Silk's rationalization about how Oreb could have flown out the \nwindow\nis a classic Wolfean signal that that is NOT what happened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) This leaves open the big questions:\n a) What was Oreb doing there in the first place?\n b) Why did he lie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The second question is a biggie. Silk made it clear that he wouldn't\npunish Oreb for being up there. An explanation that leaves that \ndangling\nis barely an explanation for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if Mucor possessed Oreb, then you do have an error in Silk's \nrationalisation as required -- and you also have an explanation for \nwhy Oreb lied (or forgot)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No you don't. Silk saw Oreb fly out the window and immediately saw Mucor \nstanding over him. Oreb might not remember entering the room, but he \nwould remember leaving it. And there is simply no reason for Mucor to \npossess a wounded bird to keep \"tabs on Silk\". She can astral travel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<07B7406C2BA447CBB35036549D5A6AC8@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-29T22:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<4ED54FE6.7010805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2011 8:24 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But if Mucor possessed Oreb, then you do have an error in Silk’s rationalisation\n as required — and you also have an explanation for why Oreb lied (or forgot)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No you don't. Silk saw Oreb fly out the window and immediately saw Mucor \nstanding over him. Oreb might not remember entering the room, but he would\n remember leaving it. And there is simply no reason for Mucor to possess a \nwounded bird to keep \"tabs on Silk\". She can astral travel. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb might have had no idea how to make sense of events, let alone how to explain it in two-syllable statements.\n\nAs for Mucor, if she once possessed Oreb and brought him to Silk’s bedroom once [and Roy’s argument that she did is convincing], she may have done it again.\n\n*Why* she did it I don’t know, but she seems to have a wide range of capabilities, and a willingness to employ any or all of them in any given situation. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FC7D9346496497088D112E5B8EFECFA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T12:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<07B7406C2BA447CBB35036549D5A6AC8@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oreb might have had no idea how to make sense of events, let alone \nhow to explain it in two-syllable statements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Mucor, if she once possessed Oreb and brought him to Silk’s \nbedroom once [and Roy’s argument that she did is convincing], she \nmay have done it again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Why* she did it I don’t know, but she seems to have a wide range of \ncapabilities, and a willingness to employ any or all of them in any given situation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, I accept that none of the explanations proposed for Silk seeing, or thinking he sees, Oreb are very good. I just don’t think the situation warrants the postulation of a time travelling Oreb.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED62237.5010108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-30T12:31:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and Oreb in the manse", "in_reply_to": "<7FC7D9346496497088D112E5B8EFECFA@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (30-11-2011 12:15):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Gerry Quinn \nOreb might have had no idea how to make sense of events, let alone how\nto explain it in two-syllable statements. As for Mucor, if she once\npossessed Oreb and brought him to Silk’s bedroom once [and Roy’s\nargument that she did is convincing], she may have done it again. *Why*\nshe did it I don’t know, but she seems to have a wide range of\ncapabilities, and a willingness to employ any or all of them in any\ngiven\n\nsituation. By the way, I accept that none of the explanations proposed\nfor Silk seeing, or thinking he sees, Oreb are very good. I just don’t\nthink the situation warrants the postulation of a time travelling Oreb." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd put it otherwise. It's not that time travel is unwarranted, it's that\n'dream travel invovles time travel' and 'Pike's ghost is the Rajan' is not\nnecessarily more convincing than the alternatives. (Does anyone fancy time \ntravel *not in relation to* dream travel?)\n\nBut there is a problem here to solve. Not with Pike's ghost, but with the \nsecond Oreb. Of course Roy's interpretation works, but personally it \nconvinces me no more than James's, though for a different reason. Namely, \nthat if Roy's is the right explanation, then the whole episode is padding.\n\nIf only we wouldn't get distracted by all the blue herrings!" } ] } ] }