{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6132", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6132, "subject": "Severa", "messages": 33, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-12-03T18:13:13+00:00", "last": "2011-12-05T03:26:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T18:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: Id say that Jolenta is a better candidate for Severa\nthan any other female character in the book. Yes the fact that we\nnever know her real name is a clue that Wolfe is hiding something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agreed. If there was a witch character of the right age named Severa,\nwe wouldn't be having this discussion. Even if we ignore the theme of\nincest (which we should not do, imho), are there any other characters\nwho are Severian's age and who might be named Severa and who might have\nbeen raised with witches? I think only (stage name) Jolenta fits that\nbill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Merryn might be Severian’s age for all we know. We know there is something\nodd about her age; she looks both old and young, and one or other appearance\nmust be false. It might be the old appearance as easily as the young. If\nSeverian has a sister who is a character, I am pretty sure it is Merryn.\n\nJolenta is a waitress not a witch, and there’s no indication that she was\never otherwise. Come to think of it, if she had been a witch she would\nsurely have been much more wary of Talos’s blandishments. And I can think\nof no thematic reason why someone like Jolenta should be Severian’s sister." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian's travels resemble those of a clueless Greek hero like\nOedipus, stumbling into situations of which he doesn't understand the\nsignificance. Oedipus had sex with his mother, an act that defined him.\nIf he had sex with other women too, that does not make him any less of\na motherf..well, you know. A pattern of incest among Severian's mates\ndoes not require that all his mates were family members." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It requires that more than one of them was. If you can demonstrate that\nsomeone other than Jolenta or Dorcas is closely related to Severian, then\nyou can argue that a pattern exists and Jolenta might follow it. But if you\njust have Jolenta and Dorcas, you are assuming what you want to prove.\n\nIf we just have Dorcas (the subject of a weird age distortion amounting to\ntime travel and therefore not really within the bounds of “normal”\nincestuous relationships anyway) there’s no pattern involved.\n\nAnd as we’ve seen, it’s very obvious that most of Severian’s lovers cannot\nbe close relations. And also that sex with Dorcas isn’t in any way a\ndefining characteristic of Severian’s story, as was the case with that of\nOedipus .\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T18:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Larry Miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t have any strong feelings about the matter — I just think that IF Severian has a twin sister and IF she is a character, Merryn seems most likely. Because she’s a witch, yes. Then again, there’s no obvious reason for a name change (possible absence of a given name is IMO the only plausible argument for Jolenta).\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5659366D-B62D-4536-991A-FD87A1D36FD2@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T19:19:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/12/03, ?s 18:48, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t have any strong feelings about the matter — I just think \nthat IF Severian has a twin sister and IF she is a character, Merryn \n seems most likely. Because she’s a witch, yes. Then again, \nthere’s no obvious reason for a name change (possible absence of a g \niven name is IMO the only plausible argument for Jolenta)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T20:43:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<5659366D-B62D-4536-991A-FD87A1D36FD2@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah Ive thought about that too but not even Wolfe is that sneaky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/11, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/12/03, ?s 18:48, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Larry Miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t have any strong feelings about the matter — I just think\nthat IF Severian has a twin sister and IF she is a character, Merryn\n seems most likely. Because she’s a witch, yes. Then again,\nthere’s no obvious reason for a name change (possible absence of a g\niven name is IMO the only plausible argument for Jolenta)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDA8E00.4080609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-03T21:00:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<5659366D-B62D-4536-991A-FD87A1D36FD2@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 2:19 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/12/03, ?s 18:48, \"Gerry Quinn\" > escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Larry Miller \nWhy do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book.\nI don’t have any strong feelings about the matter — I just think that \nIF Severian has a twin sister and IF she is a character, Merryn seems \nmost likely. Because she’s a witch, yes. Then again, there’s no \nobvious reason for a name change (possible absence of a given name is \nIMO the only plausible argument for Jolenta)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's easy---it's on the book jacket. G-E-N-E ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T22:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDA8E00.4080609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\nshe is Severian's cousin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt wouldn't be evidence for you, Gerry. You have spent 2 or 3 years here\n\ndemonstrating that your definition of that word is \"supports my own beliefs\".\n\nYour demonstration of this skewed definition also includes taking what\n\nall other posters call evidence and relabeling it as \"rubbish\" or \n\n\"nonsense\" or \"ridiculous, mindless, unthoughtout, bizzare...etc. etc.\". There is\n\nno point in responding to such a request from you. Your rejoinder regarding\n\nthe ideas of others is completely predictable. The only variation in your posts\n\nis which derrogatory term for others you will use this time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The waitress wasn’t an actress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nCorrect. Nobody said she was. What was said was, \"Jolenta was an actress\", suggesting \n\nthat is likely a stage name. You knew that. You were just playing dumb again. I\n\nwarned you that trick doesn't work already, so why try it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I think you have inadvertently hit on something that indicates she was never " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a witch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh! You made me laugh with that one, Gerry! Nothing inadvertent there. Sorry if that\n\ntakes some of the pats off your own back. I was aware of Palaemon's explanation of the \n\nguild when I put the quote from the waitress in and the ambiguous nature of that clue in \n\nregard to her origin. As others here recognize, that statement might lend support and might \n\nalso undercut the idea that she had been a witch.\n\n \n\nGerry, I know this idea is completely alien to you, but I am not here to promote and \n\ndefend my own view of WOlfe's work. I am here to discuss them. So, unlike you I am \n\ncompletely willing to present all the evidence I find on a topic of discussion. I do\n\nnot deliberately exclude evidence which doesn't support my idea. See my discussion with\n\nJeff over Rudesind's height for an example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller- Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a witch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree, though the secret of the Inhumi is pretty close. There are a some really deep and\n\nintriguing mysteries in WOlfe's books and to think he simply gives the complete answer to\n\nus in an obvious way is an assumption for a different sort of WOlfe reader than you and me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yeah Ive thought about that too but not even Wolfe is that sneaky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt doesn't matter. Even if the guild named him instead of his mother, the text still tells us\n\nto question why they picked a brother-sister name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David stockhoff: Good eye. But a witch who recognizes a torturer outside the Citadel might not say \nso;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWe have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on \"this man in fuligin\".\n\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident, really so ignorant?\n\nPerhaps. Severian remembers running an errand for the Torturers. They apparently don't remember\n\nhim. And he is dressed as an apprentice then, not in fuligin, but why does Merryn not know what\n\nfuligin means? I take this as evidence that the accidental nature of the seance meeting is a complete\n\nsham. The Stone Town moves to place itself in certain travellers' paths. They know who Severian is\n\nand wanted him there all along.\n\n \n\nFurther ambiguous evidence: in the appendix on social classes, Jolenta is listed as part of the \n\n\"commonality\" while Severian and other Citadel residents are listed as \"servants of the throne\".\n\nBut it also says servants of the throne are drawn from the commonality. Thus, the waitress is\n\npart of the commonality due to her occupation, but there is a loophole which could allow her to\n\nhave formerly been a servant of the throne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nShe is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information regarding her hair color is\n\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd revelation of her pubic hair\n\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T22:32:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may be wrong but I remember Jolentas hair being described as\nRed-Gold. Red as we know is the color of the Pelerines who can be\ncalled witches. And that may also provide a connection with\nCatherine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\nshe is Severian's cousin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It wouldn't be evidence for you, Gerry. You have spent 2 or 3 years here\n\ndemonstrating that your definition of that word is \"supports my own\nbeliefs\".\n\nYour demonstration of this skewed definition also includes taking what\n\nall other posters call evidence and relabeling it as \"rubbish\" or\n\n\"nonsense\" or \"ridiculous, mindless, unthoughtout, bizzare...etc. etc.\".\nThere is\n\nno point in responding to such a request from you. Your rejoinder regarding\n\nthe ideas of others is completely predictable. The only variation in your\nposts\n\nis which derrogatory term for others you will use this time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The waitress wasn’t an actress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. Nobody said she was. What was said was, \"Jolenta was an actress\",\nsuggesting\n\nthat is likely a stage name. You knew that. You were just playing dumb\nagain. I\n\nwarned you that trick doesn't work already, so why try it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I think you have inadvertently hit on something that indicates she\nwas never" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh! You made me laugh with that one, Gerry! Nothing inadvertent there.\nSorry if that\n\ntakes some of the pats off your own back. I was aware of Palaemon's\nexplanation of the\n\nguild when I put the quote from the waitress in and the ambiguous nature of\nthat clue in\n\nregard to her origin. As others here recognize, that statement might lend\nsupport and might\n\nalso undercut the idea that she had been a witch.\n\n\n\nGerry, I know this idea is completely alien to you, but I am not here to\npromote and\n\ndefend my own view of WOlfe's work. I am here to discuss them. So, unlike\nyou I am\n\ncompletely willing to present all the evidence I find on a topic of\ndiscussion. I do\n\nnot deliberately exclude evidence which doesn't support my idea. See my\ndiscussion with\n\nJeff over Rudesind's height for an example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller- Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a\nwitch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, though the secret of the Inhumi is pretty close. There are a some\nreally deep and\n\nintriguing mysteries in WOlfe's books and to think he simply gives the\ncomplete answer to\n\nus in an obvious way is an assumption for a different sort of WOlfe reader\nthan you and me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah Ive thought about that too but not even Wolfe is that sneaky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't matter. Even if the guild named him instead of his mother, the\ntext still tells us\n\nto question why they picked a brother-sister name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David stockhoff: Good eye. But a witch who recognizes a torturer outside\nthe Citadel might not say\nso;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on\n\"this man in fuligin\".\n\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident,\nreally so ignorant?\n\nPerhaps. Severian remembers running an errand for the Torturers. They\napparently don't remember\n\nhim. And he is dressed as an apprentice then, not in fuligin, but why does\nMerryn not know what\n\nfuligin means? I take this as evidence that the accidental nature of the\nseance meeting is a complete\n\nsham. The Stone Town moves to place itself in certain travellers' paths.\nThey know who Severian is\n\nand wanted him there all along.\n\n\n\nFurther ambiguous evidence: in the appendix on social classes, Jolenta is\nlisted as part of the\n\n\"commonality\" while Severian and other Citadel residents are listed as\n\"servants of the throne\".\n\nBut it also says servants of the throne are drawn from the commonality.\nThus, the waitress is\n\npart of the commonality due to her occupation, but there is a loophole which\ncould allow her to\n\nhave formerly been a servant of the throne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information regarding\nher hair color is\n\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd revelation of\nher pubic hair\n\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden). \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D4A47469614AF39BFCA0FC6A3BC537@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-03T23:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\n she is Severian's cousin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It wouldn't be evidence for you, Gerry. You have spent 2 or 3 years here\ndemonstrating that your definition of that word is \"supports my own beliefs\".\nYour demonstration of this skewed definition also includes taking what\nall other posters call evidence and relabeling it as \"rubbish\" or \n\"nonsense\" or \"ridiculous, mindless, unthoughtout, bizzare...etc. etc.\". There is\nno point in responding to such a request from you. Your rejoinder regarding\nthe ideas of others is completely predictable. The only variation in your posts\nis which derrogatory term for others you will use this time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why the fear of posting it, if all posters but I would consider it evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I think you have inadvertently hit on something that indicates she was never \na witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh! You made me laugh with that one, Gerry! Nothing inadvertent there. Sorry if that\ntakes some of the pats off your own back. I was aware of Palaemon's explanation of the \nguild when I put the quote from the waitress in and the ambiguous nature of that clue in \nregard to her origin. As others here recognize, that statement might lend support and might \nalso undercut the idea that she had been a witch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Curious that you did not mention those implications. But they have been stated now anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David stockhoff: Good eye. But a witch who recognizes a torturer outside the Citadel might not say \nso;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on \"this man in fuligin\".\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident, really so ignorant?\nPerhaps. Severian remembers running an errand for the Torturers. They apparently don't remember\nhim. And he is dressed as an apprentice then, not in fuligin, but why does Merryn not know what\nfuligin means?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If she doesn’t (it’s not altogether clear — “this man in fuligin” can be taken in a number of ways) it’s an argument against Merryn being Severa (same applies to Jolenta) While not all witches might have torturers uppermost on their mind, surely a witch named Severa — if that is truly an indication of being born a twin — would take an interest in their affairs. Again, of course that presupposes that Merryn was originally called Severa, taking another name later as members of religious orders often do. The books lack any Severa other than the young girl in the mountains. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Further ambiguous evidence: in the appendix on social classes, Jolenta is listed as part of the \n\"commonality\" while Severian and other Citadel residents are listed as \"servants of the throne\".\nBut it also says servants of the throne are drawn from the commonality. Thus, the waitress is\npart of the commonality due to her occupation, but there is a loophole which could allow her to\nhave formerly been a servant of the throne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That wouldn’t be a problem anyway, as presumably any non-exultant kicked out penniless into Nessus would become part of the commonality. A worse problem, perhaps, is Wolfe’s selection of her as an exemplar of the commonality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information regarding her hair color is\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd revelation of her pubic hair\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems cuffs and collar do not entirely match. But some of that could be down to Dr. Talos’s silken threads.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322956853.1354.YahooMailNeo@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T00:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information regarding her hair color is\n\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd revelation of her pubic hair\n\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden). ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chicks can be brown or black, as an image search will show you. I suspect that we are supposed to think of the golden color, though, as you say. Also that Dr. Talos made the cuffs match the collars, as Gerry quoted, for artistic completeness and because Jolenta was going to appear nude as Jahi (or were she, Severian, and Dorcas wearing some kind of body stocking or g-string?)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T00:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing that may support Agia/Agilus relationship to Severian is\nthat Agia also injures her leg in the fiacre crash. Again this echoes\nwhat I said about Jolentas injury. Is there an incident where Dorcas\nis unable to walk or has her leg or foot wounded? Seems to me that\nall these leg injuries are a bit too coincidental." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then there is Agia. There are a couple converging lines of evidence that\nshe is Severian's cousin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It wouldn't be evidence for you, Gerry. You have spent 2 or 3 years here\n\ndemonstrating that your definition of that word is \"supports my own\nbeliefs\".\n\nYour demonstration of this skewed definition also includes taking what\n\nall other posters call evidence and relabeling it as \"rubbish\" or\n\n\"nonsense\" or \"ridiculous, mindless, unthoughtout, bizzare...etc. etc.\".\nThere is\n\nno point in responding to such a request from you. Your rejoinder regarding\n\nthe ideas of others is completely predictable. The only variation in your\nposts\n\nis which derrogatory term for others you will use this time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The waitress wasn’t an actress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. Nobody said she was. What was said was, \"Jolenta was an actress\",\nsuggesting\n\nthat is likely a stage name. You knew that. You were just playing dumb\nagain. I\n\nwarned you that trick doesn't work already, so why try it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I think you have inadvertently hit on something that indicates she\nwas never" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh! You made me laugh with that one, Gerry! Nothing inadvertent there.\nSorry if that\n\ntakes some of the pats off your own back. I was aware of Palaemon's\nexplanation of the\n\nguild when I put the quote from the waitress in and the ambiguous nature of\nthat clue in\n\nregard to her origin. As others here recognize, that statement might lend\nsupport and might\n\nalso undercut the idea that she had been a witch.\n\n\n\nGerry, I know this idea is completely alien to you, but I am not here to\npromote and\n\ndefend my own view of WOlfe's work. I am here to discuss them. So, unlike\nyou I am\n\ncompletely willing to present all the evidence I find on a topic of\ndiscussion. I do\n\nnot deliberately exclude evidence which doesn't support my idea. See my\ndiscussion with\n\nJeff over Rudesind's height for an example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller- Why do you think Merryn is Severa? Just because she is a\nwitch? I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, though the secret of the Inhumi is pretty close. There are a some\nreally deep and\n\nintriguing mysteries in WOlfe's books and to think he simply gives the\ncomplete answer to\n\nus in an obvious way is an assumption for a different sort of WOlfe reader\nthan you and me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah Ive thought about that too but not even Wolfe is that sneaky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't matter. Even if the guild named him instead of his mother, the\ntext still tells us\n\nto question why they picked a brother-sister name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David stockhoff: Good eye. But a witch who recognizes a torturer outside\nthe Citadel might not say\nso;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on\n\"this man in fuligin\".\n\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident,\nreally so ignorant?\n\nPerhaps. Severian remembers running an errand for the Torturers. They\napparently don't remember\n\nhim. And he is dressed as an apprentice then, not in fuligin, but why does\nMerryn not know what\n\nfuligin means? I take this as evidence that the accidental nature of the\nseance meeting is a complete\n\nsham. The Stone Town moves to place itself in certain travellers' paths.\nThey know who Severian is\n\nand wanted him there all along.\n\n\n\nFurther ambiguous evidence: in the appendix on social classes, Jolenta is\nlisted as part of the\n\n\"commonality\" while Severian and other Citadel residents are listed as\n\"servants of the throne\".\n\nBut it also says servants of the throne are drawn from the commonality.\nThus, the waitress is\n\npart of the commonality due to her occupation, but there is a loophole which\ncould allow her to\n\nhave formerly been a servant of the throne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information regarding\nher hair color is\n\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd revelation of\nher pubic hair\n\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden). \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T00:57:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: I may be wrong but I remember Jolentas hair being described as\nRed-Gold. Red as we know is the color of the Pelerines who can be called witches. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that may also provide a connection with Catherine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYou are right. The Cumaean even calls her \"big red-gold\". She says Jolenta's hair\n\nwas dyed and thickened with colored silk threads. Gold may be a connection to Dorcas\n\nand Severian's family (though Catherine is dark-haired). Red seems to me most likely\n\nto indicate the self-important Dr. Talos, his own red hair and the injection of his \n\nown version of beauty into her.\n\n \n\nOne thing to consider- if Jolenta is really Severa the ex-witch, then Merryn and the\n\nCumaean are being deceptive in pretending they don't know her. There is evidence they\n\nare being deceptive. Firstly, they pretend Hildegrin is not there. Also, they might be\n\npretending they don't recognize Severian as a torturer and that they have arranged this\n\nmeeting with him on purpose (a coincidence that two witches from the Citadel and \n\nSeverian's childhood happen to appear in the middle of nowhere to intercept his journey? \n\nI don't buy it).\n\n \n\nEven after Severian introduces Jolenta by name, the witches do not call her that name.\n\nShe is just \"the sick woman\". In my view, this episode could be one of a string of\n\npre-arranged situations, complete with rehearsed lines, designed to test and/or poach\n\nSeverian's nascent New Sun powers of healing and resurrection by those who only have \n\na dark, perverted version of that power. (the Lake of Birds, the avern battle, Typhon, \n\netc. are further examples)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: (re: colored pubic hair) and because Jolenta was going to appear nude " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as Jahi (or were she, Severian, and Dorcas wearing some kind of body stocking or g-string?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they were nude and I agree the pubic hair color may well be as artificial as the \n\nhair on her head. Still the indirect reveal of the color seems too elaborate to have no\n\nmeaning. I am old enough to remember that in the 60's, 70's it was a cultural trope that\n\nmen wanting to know if a woman was a \"true blonde\" or not would check the pubic hair as\n\nan indicator (see the movie M*A*S*H, which made a memorable tent-raising scene from that\n\nprinciple)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Why the fear of posting it, if all posters but I would consider it evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, heh. Fear? Nice try. Actually I do respond to all polite requests when I can. I think you\n\nhave been making an effort lately Gerry, but I still don't really trust your sincerity yet. I\n\nhope you can understand that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A worse problem, perhaps (for Jolenta as witch-Severa, is Wolfe’s selection of her as an " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "exemplar of the commonality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAnd choosing Severian, (her twin?) as an example of servant of the throne. On the other hand, \n\nby doing this he does bring both characters to mind and asks us to compare them and their social \n\nclass. Social class is related, in part to height, and Jolenta is tall, like Severian.\n\n \n\nKeep in mind, Gerry, that Jolenta as Severa is only a suggestion. There may have been no intention\n\nby WOlfe to include a Severa. It seems quite clear that Jolenta-as-Severa can't be proven or \n\ndisproven with the evidence we are given. I'm comfortable leaving it at that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T01:37:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing to consider- if Jolenta is really Severa the ex-witch, then Merryn and the\nCumaean are being deceptive in pretending they don't know her. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good point. You would expect them to know her. Definitely a strong point against her having been a witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is evidence they\nare being deceptive. Firstly, they pretend Hildegrin is not there. Also, they might be\npretending they don't recognize Severian as a torturer and that they have arranged this\nmeeting with him on purpose (a coincidence that two witches from the Citadel and \nSeverian's childhood happen to appear in the middle of nowhere to intercept his journey? \nI don't buy it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems not unlikely that devotees of Vodalus and those who deal with them tend towards discretion when they meet strangers. As for the rest: it’s a story; building conspiracy theories on the coincidences inherent to stories achieves nothing. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even after Severian introduces Jolenta by name, the witches do not call her that name.\nShe is just \"the sick woman\". In my view, this episode could be one of a string of\npre-arranged situations, complete with rehearsed lines, designed to test and/or poach\nSeverian's nascent New Sun powers of healing and resurrection by those who only have \na dark, perverted version of that power. (the Lake of Birds, the avern battle, Typhon, \netc. are further examples)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Such a theory has the advantage that everything naturally deducible from the text can be waved away and ignored. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Why the fear of posting it, if all posters but I would consider it evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, heh. Fear? Nice try. Actually I do respond to all polite requests when I can. I think you\nhave been making an effort lately Gerry, but I still don't really trust your sincerity yet. I\nhope you can understand that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You’re repeating your lines. But I wasn’t making a polite request above. I was pointing out that if you had anything, you’d have posted it. If your “evidence” is worth anything, my words cannot negate it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A worse problem, perhaps (for Jolenta as witch-Severa, is Wolfe’s selection of her as an \nexemplar of the commonality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And choosing Severian, (her twin?) as an example of servant of the throne. On the other hand, \nby doing this he does bring both characters to mind and asks us to compare them and their social \nclass. Social class is related, in part to height, and Jolenta is tall, like Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tall is sexy in the Commonwealth, for precisely that reason; thus Jolenta is tall. We are not told, however, that the waitress is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Keep in mind, Gerry, that Jolenta as Severa is only a suggestion. There may have been no intention\nby WOlfe to include a Severa. It seems quite clear that Jolenta-as-Severa can't be proven or \ndisproven with the evidence we are given. I'm comfortable leaving it at that. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, even Merryn has considerable defects as a candidate, and it may very well be that no sister-character exists at all. That said, the question of whether something can be proven or disproven rests substantially on one’s standards of proof.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDAD016.7080805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T01:42:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<48D4A47469614AF39BFCA0FC6A3BC537@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 6:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David stockhoff: Good eye. But a witch who recognizes a torturer \noutside the Citadel might not say\nso;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn \ncomments on \"this man in fuligin\".\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel \nresident, really so ignorant?\nPerhaps. Severian remembers running an errand for the Torturers. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They apparently don't remember\nhim. And he is dressed as an apprentice then, not in fuligin, but \nwhy does Merryn not know what\nfuligin means?\nIf she doesn’t (it’s not altogether clear — “this man in fuligin” can \nbe taken in a number of ways) it’s an argument against Merryn being \nSevera (same applies to Jolenta) While not all witches might have \ntorturers uppermost on their mind, surely a witch named Severa — if \nthat is truly an indication of being born a twin — would take an \ninterest in their affairs. Again, of course that presupposes that \nMerryn was originally called Severa, taking another name later as \nmembers of religious orders often do. The books lack any Severa other \nthan the young girl in the mountains." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's step back a bit. \"Severa\" is merely the placeholder name of \nSeverian's hypothetical twin sister taken by the witches. She need never \nhave been named Severa; she need never have been named at all before the \nwitches did. Catherine may not have named her children before they were \ntaken from her. She need not know who she is. So none of this is truly \nvalid.\n\nConsider that most infants through most of history were named only after \nthey lived several years; aristocratic infants might be named weeks \nafter birth at a ceremony. Protestants tend to name all children, even \nthose stillborn. What chance did a disgraced, imprisoned, condemned, \nnoblewoman have of naming her bastard children together?\n\nAntonio's question raises another point from that intended---who named \nSeverian? If the Seekers, then the Witches named Severa by her real \nname. Thus, Severa was never Severa at all and had no name to change." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Any idea what her coloring was before Talos transformed her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She is a thin woman with straggling hair. The lack of information \nregarding her hair color is\ninteresting, as Wolfe seems later to reveal it through the odd \nrevelation of her pubic hair\nresembling a downy chick (i.e. golden)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems cuffs and collar do not entirely match. But some of that \ncould be down to Dr. Talos’s silken threads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Jolenta's coloring is not necessarily the waitress's coloring." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDADB1F.7050309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T02:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 7:57 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nYou are right. The Cumaean even calls her \"big red-gold\". She says Jolenta's hair\n\nwas dyed and thickened with colored silk threads. Gold may be a connection to Dorcas\n\nand Severian's family (though Catherine is dark-haired). Red seems to me most likely\n\nto indicate the self-important Dr. Talos, his own red hair and the injection of his\n\nown version of beauty into her.\n\n\n\nOne thing to consider- if Jolenta is really Severa the ex-witch, then Merryn and the\n\nCumaean are being deceptive in pretending they don't know her. There is evidence they\n\nare being deceptive. Firstly, they pretend Hildegrin is not there. Also, they might be\n\npretending they don't recognize Severian as a torturer and that they have arranged this\n\nmeeting with him on purpose (a coincidence that two witches from the Citadel and\n\nSeverian's childhood happen to appear in the middle of nowhere to intercept his journey?\n\nI don't buy it).\n\n\n\nEven after Severian introduces Jolenta by name, the witches do not call her that name.\n\nShe is just \"the sick woman\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good points." } ] }, { "message_id": "<947D23D9-DEB0-4E98-9FD0-0577C2D53878@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T04:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDAD016.7080805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who named Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other point would hardly have been worth raising). " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T04:32:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<947D23D9-DEB0-4E98-9FD0-0577C2D53878@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: building conspiracy theories on the coincidences inherent to stories " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "achieves nothing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt does! Our discussions provide opportunities for us to better understand the possible ways\n\nof interpreting Gene Wolfe and provide Gerry Quinn with something to whine about. A win-win\n\nsituation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I wasn’t making a polite request above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOkay, so it was a rude demand. Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your admission that\n\nyou have not turned over a new leaf after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and it may very well be that no sister-character exists at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWe all agree on that. But only one here thinks that possibility excludes all value in discussing\n\nthe possibility that a sister-character does exist. That same person would, ostensibly, like to\n\nend all discussion here. But as I've said before, Gerry, you serve a useful purpose, mostly \n\ntheatrical, sometimes comedic. I encourage you to carry on. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDB7D56.1080805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T14:01:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<947D23D9-DEB0-4E98-9FD0-0577C2D53878@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2011 11:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who named Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other point would hardly have been worth raising)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I see!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<498DC12CB4EC482AA7F7514AA8340B4E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T14:10:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<947D23D9-DEB0-4E98-9FD0-0577C2D53878@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who named Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other point would hardly \nhave been worth raising). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m not sure it matters — surely the main question is whether the name does imply a twin? Certainly the book seems to be suggesting that a twin sister exists somewhere. With regard to this question, it doesn’t really matter if the torturers pick names, or defer to the client’s wishes.\nThere is a possibility that occurs to me — the torturers name the boy and the witches name the girl. Might the torturers have given a twin’s name to the boy, then handed over the girl to the witches, who gave her a standard name? It would explain Merryn’s name, but it seems a slightly convoluted explanation. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDB8AC2.7060009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T14:59:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<498DC12CB4EC482AA7F7514AA8340B4E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 9:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nNo dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David Stockhoff \n escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who \nnamed Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other \npoint would hardly\nhave been worth raising)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’m not sure it matters — surely the main question is whether the name \ndoes imply a twin?\nCertainly the book seems to be suggesting that a twin sister exists \nsomewhere.\nWith regard to this question, it doesn’t really matter if the \ntorturers pick names, or defer to the client’s wishes.\nThere is a possibility that occurs to me — the torturers name the boy \nand the witches name the girl. Might the torturers have given a twin’s \nname to the boy, then handed over the girl to the witches, who gave \nher a standard name? It would explain Merryn’s name, but it seems a \nslightly convoluted explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I said, except that Severian is not \"a twin's name.\" It's \njust a name. Any Latinate male named can be twinned with a female form.\n\nWhat's convoluted about it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T15:24:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDB8AC2.7060009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/2011 9:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nCertainly the book seems to be suggesting that a twin sister exists \nsomewhere.\nWith regard to this question, it doesn’t really matter if the \ntorturers pick names, or defer to the client’s wishes.\nThere is a possibility that occurs to me — the torturers name the boy \nand the witches name the girl. Might the torturers have given a twin’s \nname to the boy, then handed over the girl to the witches, who gave \nher a standard name? It would explain Merryn’s name, but it seems a \nslightly convoluted explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what I said, except that Severian is not \"a twin's name.\" It's \njust a name. Any Latinate male named can be twinned with a female form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we do get a hint that it’s typical of a twin:\n****************************************\n\"She was your sister, wasn't she?\"\n\nHe nodded. \"We were twins. Big Severian, did you ever have a sister?\"\n\n\"I don't know. My family is all dead. They've been dead since I was a baby. \n****************************************\n\nAnd probably not all Latinate names can be associated with saints of both genders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's convoluted about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The explanation? Just that the torturers take the trouble to select a twin’s name for the boy, but then say nothing to the witches. [Assuming it’s a name indicative of a twin, obviously. Perhaps there’s nothing there.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T17:57:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's convoluted about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The explanation? Just that the torturers take the trouble to select " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a twin’s name for the boy, but then say nothing to the witches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYou are not thinking correctly. The \"torturers\" did not take the slightest bit of\n\ntrouble to select a name for Severian. Gene Wolfe did. The torturers did not put\n\nSeverian in a cabin in the wilds and learn that Severian and Severa are twin names.\n\nGene wolfe did. You have to ask why the author did these things, not the characters.\n\nDid Gene Wolfe create the cabin scene to make us think Severian didn't have a sister\n\nat birth?\n\n \n\nObviously not. WOlfe created the scene to imply the possibility or even liklihood that\n\nhe did. While I\"m sure WOlfe meant for us to have some doubts on the issue I have\n\ntrouble believing he meant us to arrive at a point where we say, \"well, maybe there is\n\na sister but the witches didn't name her Severa, so, well, okay they named her Merryn.\n\nSo that's it. Severian meets his witch sister. End of story. No incest. No mythological\n\nconnection to Oedipus. No connection to other family characters such as Dorcas or \n\nCatherine. Just a rippingly good yarn with no depth, allusion or mystery, as Gerry would \n\nhave it.\n\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBD5FE.9010702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:20:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 10:24 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 12/4/2011 9:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Certainly the book seems to be suggesting that a twin sister exists\nsomewhere.\nWith regard to this question, it doesn’t really matter if the\ntorturers pick names, or defer to the client’s wishes.\nThere is a possibility that occurs to me — the torturers name the boy\nand the witches name the girl. Might the torturers have given a \ntwin’s\nname to the boy, then handed over the girl to the witches, who gave\nher a standard name? It would explain Merryn’s name, but it seems a\nslightly convoluted explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's what I said, except that Severian is not \"a twin's name.\" It's\njust a name. Any Latinate male named can be twinned with a female form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we do get a hint that it’s typical of a twin:\n****************************************\n\"She was your sister, wasn't she?\"\nHe nodded. \"We were twins. Big Severian, did you ever have a sister?\"\n\"I don't know. My family is all dead. They've been dead since I was a \nbaby.\n****************************************\n\nAnd probably not all Latinate names can be associated with saints of \nboth genders." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely not---it's one reason why I think there _is_ something there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's convoluted about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The explanation? Just that the torturers take the trouble to select a \ntwin’s name for the boy, but then say nothing to the witches. \n[Assuming it’s a name indicative of a twin, obviously. Perhaps there’s \nnothing there.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IT'S NOT A \"TWIN'S NAME.\" And why would they talk to the witches at all, \never?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBD61B.1050104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDB7D56.1080805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/3/2011 11:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David\nStockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who\nnamed Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other\npoint would hardly have been worth raising)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, I see!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... rereading it, one can barely see that that was what was on my\nmind. Maybe I really should improve my discourse." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBD653.1000002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDB7D56.1080805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/3/2011 11:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David\nStockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who\nnamed Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other\npoint would hardly have been worth raising)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, I see!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... rereading it, one can barely see that that was what was on my\nmind. Maybe I really should improve my discourse instead of waiting for \nothers to read my thoughts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBD6D3.5090401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:23:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDBD61B.1050104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 3:20 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/2011 11:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No dia 04/12/2011, ?s 01:42, David\nStockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How do we know Severian's real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Antonio's question raises another point from that intended---who\nnamed Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ahem. Though not explicit, that was the point intended (the other\npoint would hardly have been worth raising)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, I see!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well... rereading it, one can barely see that that was what was on my\nmind. Maybe I really should improve my discourse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it did seem like a rhetorical question---how do we know anything?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56EDBEE872FC4ADE997D203828883C81@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDBD5FE.9010702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 10:24 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And probably not all Latinate names can be associated with saints of \nboth genders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely not---it's one reason why I think there _is_ something there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's convoluted about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The explanation? Just that the torturers take the trouble to select a \ntwin’s name for the boy, but then say nothing to the witches. \n[Assuming it’s a name indicative of a twin, obviously. Perhaps there’s \nnothing there.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IT'S NOT A \"TWIN'S NAME.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely the fact of it being one of the Latinate names that can be associated with saints of either gender makes it a twins? name in BotNS? Of course it doesn’t have to be restricted to twins, but it’s a natural possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why would they talk to the witches at all, ever?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To say they have a baby girl for them. And for whatever reason Severian was sent to the Witches Tower. Damp-proofing in the cellars of nearby towers, who knows...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBDE4C.2080605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T20:55:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<56EDBEE872FC4ADE997D203828883C81@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 3:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 12/4/2011 10:24 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And probably not all Latinate names can be associated with saints of\nboth genders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absolutely not---it's one reason why I think there _is_ something there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What's convoluted about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The explanation? Just that the torturers take the trouble to select a\ntwin’s name for the boy, but then say nothing to the witches.\n[Assuming it’s a name indicative of a twin, obviously. Perhaps \nthere’s\nnothing there.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IT'S NOT A \"TWIN'S NAME.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely the fact of it being one of the Latinate names that can be \nassociated with saints of either gender makes it a twins? name in \nBotNS? Of course it doesn’t have to be restricted to twins, but it’s a \nnatural possibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sigh" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And why would they talk to the witches at all, ever?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To say they have a baby girl for them. And for whatever reason \nSeverian was sent to the Witches Tower. Damp-proofing in the cellars \nof nearby towers, who knows..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They send an apprentice or two. Done." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDBF7E9.8010402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-04T22:44:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDBDE4C.2080605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the maid who plays Katharine:\n\n\"She was tall and slender, though not so tall nor so slender as Thecla, \ndark of complexion, dark of eye, raven of hair. Hers was such a face as \nI have never seen elsewhere, like a pool of pure water found in the \nmidst of a wood. \" Katharine herself presumably looks like this.\n\nSeverian: identical but pale. It's been pointed out that a pool is a mirror.\n\nIf Catherine is tall and dark, and Ouen is small and fair (see Dorcas), \nthen their offspring might look like the maid as well as like Severian, \nor possibly blonde.\n\nDoes anything rule out that the maid is Severa? Is this too blindingly \nobvious? And what prevents the maid from being Merryn?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-05T00:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDBF7E9.8010402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller- Why do you think Merryn is Severa? “Just because she is a witch” ?I\nthink this is the biggest red herring in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, though the secret of the Inhumi is pretty close." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bear in mind, though, that Wolfe said he thought everyone would get\nthe secret of the inhumi. He suggested the reason they didn't was that\nthey couldn't grasp the thought of people not preying on one another.\nBut I don't think that was the reason: I think that the real reason is\nthat it was not mysterious enough. There is a lot of stuff in the\narchives with people saying 'It can't be that: it's too obvious'. But\nI don't think it was ever meant to be a secret from us; it was a\nsecret from the people of Blue, It couldn't be stated straight out,\nbecause the books had an in-story author who had promised to keep the\nsecret; but it was conveyed (in Wolfe's view, at least) as clearly as\npossible.\n\n\nThere are a some really deep and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "intriguing mysteries in WOlfe's books and to think he simply gives the complete answer to\n\nus in an obvious way is an assumption for a different sort of WOlfe reader than you and me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are _some_ really deep and intriguing mysteries, written as\nsuch, and there are also some things which puzzle us but are meant to\nbe obvious. The problem is telling which are which. It may well be\nthe case that when Severian said 'If I have a sister she is a witch'\nwe were immediately meant to think 'ah, Merryn!' Indeed, it may be\nthat Wolfe thought he was being over-helpful here, and that we should\nhave been able to to get it from the statements that girl children\nbrought to the torturers are given to the witches, and that 'Severian'\nis a brother-sister name. If it was meant to be obvious in that way it\nmay not be particularly deep. I don't know that this is true, but I\ndon't think we can rule it out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on \"this man in fuligin\".\n\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident, really so ignorant?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The context of this is important. Jolenta cries out 'Doctor!' The\nCumaean says 'She seeks her lover', and Merryn replies 'Who is not\nthis man in fuligin, then?', i,e. 'Oh - so this man in fuligin isn't\nher lover?'. So I don't think we need suppose that she is, or is\npurporting to be, unaware of the significance of fuligin. Likewise\nthe Cumaean's response 'He is but a torturer. She seeks a worse';\nneedn't be seen as simply explaining'; it's a comment on Dr Talos.\n(This does not rule out the meeting's being arranged, of course.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00151758b1cc6e14e304b34d576a@google.com>", "from": { "name": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-05T00:24:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nIT'S NOT A \"TWIN'S NAME.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not a twin's name specifically, but, as we are told by Ava, a \nbrother-sister name. I take that to be the principal reason for thinking \nthat Severian has a sister in the first place. (In this case it presumably \ndoes signify twinhood. If the torturers chose it, they would have no reason \nto choose a brother-sister name unless the sister was right there. If \nCatherine did, since she had been separated from her lover and was unlikely \nto meet him again, she wouldn't be planning for more children at that \nmoment)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDC1C02.5050107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-05T01:18:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2011 7:15 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\nWe have some evidence regarding this- Upon their meeting, Merryn comments on \"this man in fuligin\".\n\nThe Cumaean explains, \"he is but a torturer\". Is Merryn, a Citadel resident, really so ignorant?\nThe context of this is important. Jolenta cries out 'Doctor!' The\nCumaean says 'She seeks her lover', and Merryn replies 'Who is not\nthis man in fuligin, then?', i,e. 'Oh - so this man in fuligin isn't\nher lover?'. So I don't think we need suppose that she is, or is\npurporting to be, unaware of the significance of fuligin. Likewise\nthe Cumaean's response 'He is but a torturer. She seeks a worse';\nneedn't be seen as simply explaining'; it's a comment on Dr Talos.\n(This does not rule out the meeting's being arranged, of course.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there is of course that exquisite conflation of \"lover\" and \n\"torturer\" ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EDC1C45.4020809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-05T01:20:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<00151758b1cc6e14e304b34d576a@google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/2011 7:24 PM, andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IT'S NOT A \"TWIN'S NAME.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not a twin's name specifically, but, as we are told by Ava, a \nbrother-sister name. I take that to be the principal reason for \nthinking that Severian has a sister in the first place. (In this case \nit presumably does signify twinhood. If the torturers chose it, they \nwould have no reason to choose a brother-sister name unless the sister \nwas right there. If Catherine did, since she had been separated from \nher lover and was unlikely to meet him again, she wouldn't be planning \nfor more children at that moment) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-05T03:26:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severa", "in_reply_to": "<4EDC1C45.4020809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Bear in mind, though, that Wolfe said he thought everyone would get\nthe secret of the inhumi. He suggested the reason they didn't was that they couldn't " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "grasp the thought of people not preying on one another. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWhere is this quote from? I think I remember something like that. Anyway, that sentiment \n\nis quite misanthropic. It may be that Wolfe thinks that lowly of the human race in general. \n\nBut also of his readers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I don't think that was the reason: I think that the real reason is\nthat it was not mysterious enough. There is a lot of stuff in the archives with people " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "saying 'It can't be that: it's too obvious'. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI am not among those people. There are many Wolfe mysteries to which the solutions are\n\ngiven quite freely. For me, obviousness alone is not a disqualification. In the case\n\nof the inhumi secret, the problem I see is that \"you are what you eat\" simply doesn't \n\nseem like much of a secret. Why is it so carefully protected? (I've heard the arguments;\n\nthey all sound post-hoc and very weak to me).\n\n \n\nNow, if you combine that secret with James and Marc's idea: \"We inhumi are what we eat\n\nand we only became the beings you see flying around because our original form is that of\n\na parasitic vine, a form in which we still hide. As long as there are vines on Blue there \n\nwill be inhumi.\" There I think you might have a secret the inhumi would want to protect. \n\nI've spoken my piece on the \"flying through space\" fib of the inhumi. If they are hiding as\n\nvines, this \"unassisted spaceflight by animals\" fib is another part of keeping that secret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I don't think it was ever meant to be a secret from us; it was a\nsecret from the people of Blue, It couldn't be stated straight out,\nbecause the books had an in-story author who had promised to keep the\nsecret; but it was conveyed (in Wolfe's view, at least) as clearly as\npossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI hear you Andrew. It just doesn't work for me, literarily. Sort of like Chekhov's gun.\n\nWe are told of a deep secret in \"chapter 1\" but in \"chapter 3\" after a very long wait \n\nand a dramatic build-up we get- \"inhumi are what they eat\"? Such an anti-climax. Something \n\nwe already know. Why would an author choose to do this? Why would Wolfe break the writer's \n\nrules he has said he is bound by? You can't get your audience hungry for steak then give\n\nthem crackers. Maybe in the middle, but not at the end of such a long story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }