{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6142", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6142, "subject": "Change of Pace / Peace", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-12-16T21:12:00+00:00", "last": "2011-12-17T00:48:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-16T21:12:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Change of Pace / Peace", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO\nminiseries, *Carnivale*. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural\nmystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest),\nalternating between the stories of a young \"Avatar\" of good (a man\ntraveling with a circus / carnival) and an \"Avatar\" of evil, a preacher in\n(I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some\nparallels between it and *Peace*, during the portion in which a character\nin the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a\nstory-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young\nman goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds\na mother-daughter \"burlesque dancer\" team (just like in the TV show) and a\ncharacter named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in\nthe TV show). \"Scudder\" is far from a common name; I can't think the\nsimilarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in *Peace* also take place\nin a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other\ninteresting similarities between *Peace* (which was written 28 years\nearlier) and *Carnivale* that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this\n/ know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-16T22:11:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Change of Pace / Peace", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The shows creator was Daniel Knauf who also writes comic books (or\ndid) and I wouldnt be surprised if he knew about Wolfes work. Neil\nGaiman is always dropping Wolfes name in interviews. BTW Ronald Moore\nwho developed the Battlestar Galactica remake also wrote for Carnivale\nand has said he was an avid SF reader as a teen. The only literary\ninfluences I know that Knauf mentioned myself is Something Wicked This\nWay Comes and the Grapes of Wrath. If your interested in further\nelaboration of Carnivales mythology search around online for the\n\"Pitch Document\" which is a series bible of sorts. Do you recall the\nepisode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer?\nBriefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens\nits eyes. That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be\na nod to Wolfes work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nI don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO\nminiseries, *Carnivale*. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural\nmystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest),\nalternating between the stories of a young \"Avatar\" of good (a man\ntraveling with a circus / carnival) and an \"Avatar\" of evil, a preacher in\n(I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some\nparallels between it and *Peace*, during the portion in which a character\nin the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a\nstory-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young\nman goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds\na mother-daughter \"burlesque dancer\" team (just like in the TV show) and a\ncharacter named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in\nthe TV show). \"Scudder\" is far from a common name; I can't think the\nsimilarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in *Peace* also take place\nin a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other\ninteresting similarities between *Peace* (which was written 28 years\nearlier) and *Carnivale* that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this\n/ know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-12-16T22:27:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Change of Pace / Peace", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nI don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO\nminiseries, *Carnivale*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and *Peace*, during the \nportion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the \nnarrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man \nturning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a \nneighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter \"burlesque \ndancer\" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder \n(the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). \n\"Scudder\" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is \ncoincidental!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't watch it (it looked like too much work ;)), but the Wikipedia \narticle is fairly extensive. It suggests, for example, that the cootch \nfamily came into the story following research. I would have thought \nBradbury's _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, _Dr Lao_, even _The Dreaming \nJewels_ might be other literary precedents. And Nehemiah Scudder appears \nin Heinlein's _If This Goes On_\n\n\"The First Prophet was Nehemiah Scudder, a backwoods preacher turned \nPresident (elected in 2012)\"\n\n..that was my immediate thought when you mentioned the name Scudder.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T00:48:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Change of Pace / Peace", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nDo you recall the\nepisode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer?\nBriefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens\nits eyes. ?That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be\na nod to Wolfes work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possible, but it's more likely to be a nod to Ray Bradbury's \"The\nJar,\" which was made into an astonishing Alfred Hitchcock episode." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] } ] }