Subject: (urth) Change of Pace / Peace

From: Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:12:00 +0000

I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO
miniseries, *Carnivale*.  Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural
mystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest),
alternating between the stories of a young "Avatar" of good (a man
traveling with a circus / carnival) and an "Avatar" of evil, a preacher in
(I think) California who gains a large following.  Anyways, I noticed some
parallels between it and *Peace*, during the portion in which a character
in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a
story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone.  The young
man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds
a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a
character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in
the TV show).  "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the
similarity is coincidental!  The carnival scenes in *Peace* also take place
in a Depression area Midwest town.  I seem to remember a few other
interesting similarities between *Peace* (which was written 28 years
earlier) and *Carnivale* that I will try and remember.  Anyone notice this
/ know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work?
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From: Larry Miller <decanus1284 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:11:30 +0000

did) and I wouldnt be surprised if he knew about Wolfes work.  Neil
Gaiman is always dropping Wolfes name in interviews.  BTW Ronald Moore
who developed the Battlestar Galactica remake also wrote for Carnivale
and has said he was an avid SF reader as a teen.  The only literary
influences I know that Knauf mentioned myself is Something Wicked This
Way Comes and the Grapes of Wrath.  If your interested in further
elaboration of Carnivales mythology search around online for the
"Pitch Document" which is a series bible of sorts.  Do you recall the
episode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer?
Briefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens
its eyes.  That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be
a nod to Wolfes work.

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:27:35 +0000

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Antonin Scriabin wrote:

> miniseries, *Carnivale*.

> Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and *Peace*, during the 
> portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the 
> narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man 
> turning to stone.  The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a 
> neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque 
> dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder 
> (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). 
> "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is 
> coincidental!

I didn't watch it (it looked like too much work ;)), but the Wikipedia 
article is fairly extensive. It suggests, for example, that the cootch 
family came into the story following research.  I would have thought 
Bradbury's _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, _Dr Lao_, even _The Dreaming 
Jewels_ might be other literary precedents.  And Nehemiah Scudder appears 
in Heinlein's _If This Goes On_

"The First Prophet was Nehemiah Scudder, a backwoods preacher turned 
President (elected in 2012)"

..that was my immediate thought when you mentioned the name Scudder.

Cheers, David Duffy.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 00:48:11 +0000

Larry Miller wrote:
> Do you recall the
> its eyes. ?That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be
> a nod to Wolfes work.

Possible, but it's more likely to be a nod to Ray Bradbury's "The
Jar," which was made into an astonishing Alfred Hitchcock episode.
-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes