# Change of Pace / Peace *The Urth list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 16 Dec 2011* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Antonin Scriabin *16 Dec 2011, 21:12* I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO miniseries, *Carnivale*. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural mystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest), alternating between the stories of a young "Avatar" of good (a man traveling with a circus / carnival) and an "Avatar" of evil, a preacher in (I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and *Peace*, during the portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in *Peace* also take place in a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other interesting similarities between *Peace* (which was written 28 years earlier) and *Carnivale* that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this / know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work? --- ### Larry Miller *16 Dec 2011, 22:11 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* The shows creator was Daniel Knauf who also writes comic books (or did) and I wouldnt be surprised if he knew about Wolfes work. Neil Gaiman is always dropping Wolfes name in interviews. BTW Ronald Moore who developed the Battlestar Galactica remake also wrote for Carnivale and has said he was an avid SF reader as a teen. The only literary influences I know that Knauf mentioned myself is Something Wicked This Way Comes and the Grapes of Wrath. If your interested in further elaboration of Carnivales mythology search around online for the "Pitch Document" which is a series bible of sorts. Do you recall the episode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer? Briefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens its eyes. That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be a nod to Wolfes work. > On 12/16/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO > miniseries, *Carnivale*. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural > mystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest), > alternating between the stories of a young "Avatar" of good (a man > traveling with a circus / carnival) and an "Avatar" of evil, a preacher in > (I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some > parallels between it and *Peace*, during the portion in which a character > in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a > story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young > man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds > a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a > character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in > the TV show). "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the > similarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in *Peace* also take place > in a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other > interesting similarities between *Peace* (which was written 28 years > earlier) and *Carnivale* that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this > / know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work? --- ### David Duffy *16 Dec 2011, 22:27 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* > On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO > miniseries, *Carnivale*. > Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and *Peace*, during the > portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the > narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man > turning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a > neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque > dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder > (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). > "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is > coincidental! I didn't watch it (it looked like too much work ;)), but the Wikipedia article is fairly extensive. It suggests, for example, that the cootch family came into the story following research. I would have thought Bradbury's _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, _Dr Lao_, even _The Dreaming Jewels_ might be other literary precedents. And Nehemiah Scudder appears in Heinlein's _If This Goes On_ "The First Prophet was Nehemiah Scudder, a backwoods preacher turned President (elected in 2012)" ..that was my immediate thought when you mentioned the name Scudder. Cheers, David Duffy. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Dec 2011, 00:48 · in reply to Larry Miller* > Larry Miller wrote: > Do you recall the > episode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer? > Briefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens > its eyes. ?That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be > a nod to Wolfes work. Possible, but it's more likely to be a nod to Ray Bradbury's "The Jar," which was made into an astonishing Alfred Hitchcock episode. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` ---