{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6146", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6146, "subject": "Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-12-17T00:54:34+00:00", "last": "2011-12-17T15:46:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1324083274.30781.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T00:54:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will start with some general facts before going to the specifics of the \"identity issue\" I think is in some way lurking in Latro. this is kind of complicated in terms of text but you should pay attention to a few thiings about Latros nature. Some of this is cribbed together from old posts, so this may seem a little jumbled.\n\n\" Do you not know that I canot be harmed by a common mortal?\" \nLatro: \"No, I don't know that. Nor that I'm a common mortal. perhaps I am. Perhaps not.\"\n\n\nFirst, some particulars about Latro: he wins combat like the olympic competition at the end of Arete, unless instructed to \"throw the match\" (though he did lose at least one other wrestling match). He pushes the boulder of Sisyphus up the hill when Sisyphus can't do it, though Sisyphus is a demigod. Nike or some victory follows him around, though always at his back. He is a vortex for the gods: they are unreal to others until he touches them. Latro falls for the amazon girl who are \"daughters of Ares\" and becomes extremely depressed when one dies. The traditional enemy of Ares is the boar, and Latro flushes him out. Latro makes love to Aphrodite, in some stories the wife of Ares. Latro become despressed in the manumission ceremony when he sees the slaves promised their freedom slain by the spartans instead of freed, though he can't remember what has so upset him. \n\nLet's look at the concluding poem of Soldier of Arete at the olympics: \"you quench the bolt, the lighning's fearful fire, the eagle rests his wings, that never tire; to hear you shaken by your song, Fell Ares quits the spear proud throng.\" Ares is tired of war and leaves it behind, or at least this particular conflict: he has quit the war mongering crowd.\n\n Thamyris starts addressing Latro \nas Pleistorus in Chapter 24 of Soldier of Arete, and Pleistorus is their version of the war god Ares. Also, Pleistorus has been missing from his temple for a very very long time, and is equated with Ahura Mazda as well in the book, who is for all intents and purposes the \"great\" good god most similar to the Christian God.\n\nOne more thing, and this is new. Xalmoxes, the boar shape changer, gave his followers the promise of immortality and heaven with a resurrection of the body. (a historical figure) He disappeared into the ground for three years and then emerged. As the enemy here of Ares, he predates Christian \"resurection\"/heaven philosophy because it is a false version of what, I think, Ahura Mazda will bring when he assimilates the turning away from war for war's sake: the peace of the world that will allow Jesus to be born.\n\nLatro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea \nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is \nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as \nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete. this would make her Hera, who \nwould be Ares mother (the sphinx says, I am your mother, and your mother's mother in Latro's memory palace). \n\nIf latro is the avatar of Ares/Pleistorus, trapped in human form [remember, pleistorus has been missing for a long time] then some of latro's abilities make sense. His disillusionment with war leads to the conclusion: Ares has given up on war and death as cruelty, and as ahura mazda this is the ethos change that will culminate in the death of Pan and the birth of Christ, prompted by the character change in Ahura Mazda from his experiences either riding or \"as\" Latro.\n\nHowever, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series: \nthe Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken over \nthe old ways. If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles mad, and he wants the Spartans to be vanquished. The remains of the achaens are symbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in \nSoldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then takes \ninto Sparta with him. He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him\n of things, and helps him remember. I don't know if anyone else has said \nanything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or \nbull-killer) in chapter 33. He later makes a pipe for io and begins dancing, \nwhere Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus. Aglaus is a satyr, \nwho chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him. So, Latro is \nsurrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and he is probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.\n\nWhy would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of \nhis past? Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember. The \nmemory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus' \nservices after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of \nAglaus' effect on his memory.\n\nIn the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete, we \nsee several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the \nSpartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains. Aglaus and Lykaon seems \nto represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph \nof Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been said).\n I'm pretty sure that \nAchilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to insure \nthat they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that \nLatro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.\n\n\n\nNow, a few interesting statements\" \"I know ares is the war god here ... like Pleistorus. But this isn't war. How can anybody say that the man who runs fastest shows his arete?\" \n\nIs latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares\n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.)? There is that big discussion at the beginning of\nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a\nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought \nthis\nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone\ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another\nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares\nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other \nstatements\nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King\n Kotys for his\ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially\ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of \nAres. Also,\nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is \"inside\"\nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before\nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't come\naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\"? But I think he\ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with \nLatro). Could\nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son? And could Latro's disillusionment with war be teaching ahura Mazda in such a way that will prompt the shift of the zeitgeist to Christianity?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T01:13:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1324083274.30781.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fascinating, Marc.\n\nI won't comment in detail at this point because I have learned to take\nyour theories seriously and with a LOT of thought, whether I wind up\nagreeing with them or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI will start with some general facts before going to the specifics of the \"identity issue\" I think is in some way lurking in Latro. this is kind of complicated in terms of text but you should pay attention to a few thiings about Latros nature. “Some of this is cribbed together from old posts, so this may seem a little jumbled.\n\n\" Do you not know that I canot be harmed by a common mortal?\"\nLatro: \"No, I don't know that.” Nor that I'm a common mortal. perhaps I am. Perhaps not.\"\n\n\nFirst, some particulars about Latro: he wins combat like the olympic competition at the end of Arete, unless instructed to \"throw the match\" (though he did lose at least one other wrestling match). He pushes the boulder of Sisyphus up the hill when Sisyphus can't do it, though Sisyphus is a demigod. Nike or some victory follows him around, though always at his back. He is a vortex for the gods: they are unreal to others until he touches them. Latro falls for the amazon girl who are \"daughters of Ares\" and becomes extremely depressed when one dies. The traditional enemy of Ares is the boar, and Latro flushes him out. Latro makes love to Aphrodite, in some stories the wife of Ares. Latro become despressed in the manumission ceremony when he sees the slaves promised their freedom slain by the spartans instead of freed, though he can't remember what has so upset him.\n\nLet's look at the concluding poem of Soldier of Arete at the olympics: \"you quench the bolt, the lighning's fearful fire, the eagle rests his wings, that never tire; to hear you shaken by your song, Fell Ares quits the spear proud throng.\" ?Ares is tired of war and leaves it behind, or at least this particular conflict: he has quit the war mongering crowd.\n\n?Thamyris starts addressing Latro\nas Pleistorus in Chapter 24 of Soldier of Arete, and Pleistorus is their version of the war god Ares. ?Also, Pleistorus has been missing from his temple for a very very long time, and is equated with Ahura Mazda as well in the book, who is for all intents and purposes the \"great\" good god most similar to the Christian God.\n\nOne more thing, and this is new. ?Xalmoxes, the boar shape changer, gave his followers the promise of immortality and heaven with a resurrection of the body. (a historical figure) He disappeared into the ground for three years and then emerged. “As the enemy here of Ares, he predates Christian \"resurection\"/heaven philosophy because it is a false version of what, I think, Ahura Mazda will bring when he assimilates the turning away from war for war's sake: the peace of the world that will allow Jesus to be born.\n\nLatro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea\nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is\nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as\nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete.” this would make her Hera, who\nwould be Ares mother (the sphinx says, I am your mother, and your mother's mother in Latro's memory palace).\n\nIf latro is the avatar of Ares/Pleistorus, trapped in human form [remember, pleistorus has been missing for a long time] then some of latro's abilities make sense. “His disillusionment with war leads to the conclusion: Ares has given up on war and death as cruelty, and as ahura mazda this is the ethos change that will culminate in the death of Pan and the birth of Christ, prompted by the character change in Ahura Mazda from his experiences either riding or \"as\" Latro.\n\nHowever, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series:\nthe Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken over\nthe old ways.” If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles mad, and he wants the Spartans to be vanquished. The remains of the achaens are symbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in\nSoldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then takes\ninto Sparta with him. He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him\n“of things, and helps him remember.” I don't know if anyone else has said\nanything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or\nbull-killer) in chapter 33. He later makes a pipe for io and begins dancing,\nwhere Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus. Aglaus is a satyr,\nwho chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him. So, Latro is\nsurrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and he is probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.\n\nWhy would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of\nhis past? Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember. The\nmemory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus'\nservices after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of\nAglaus' effect on his memory.\n\nIn the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete, we\nsee several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the\nSpartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains. Aglaus and Lykaon seems\nto represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph\nof Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been said).\n“I'm pretty sure that\nAchilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to insure\nthat they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that\nLatro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.\n\n\n\nNow, a few interesting statements\" \"I know ares is the war god here ... like Pleistorus.” But this isn't war. How can anybody say that the man who runs fastest shows his arete?\"\n\nIs latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares\n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.)? There is that big discussion at the beginning of\nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a\nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought\nthis\nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone\ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another\nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares\nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other\nstatements\nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King\n“Kotys for his\ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially\ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of\nAres.” Also,\nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is \"inside\"\nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before\nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't come\naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\"? But I think he\ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with\nLatro). Could\nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son? “And could Latro's disillusionment with war be teaching ahura Mazda in such a way that will prompt the shift of the zeitgeist to Christianity”\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EEBF963.1020600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-17T02:07:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1324083274.30781.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2011 7:54 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI will start with some general facts before going to the specifics of the \"identity issue\" I think is in some way lurking in Latro. this is kind of complicated in terms of text but you should pay attention to a few thiings about Latros nature. Some of this is cribbed together from old posts, so this may seem a little jumbled.\n \n\" Do you not know that I canot be harmed by a common mortal?\"\nLatro: \"No, I don't know that. Nor that I'm a common mortal. perhaps I am. Perhaps not.\"\n \n \nFirst, some particulars about Latro: he wins combat like the olympic competition at the end of Arete, unless instructed to \"throw the match\" (though he did lose at least one other wrestling match). He pushes the boulder of Sisyphus up the hill when Sisyphus can't do it, though Sisyphus is a demigod. Nike or some victory follows him around, though always at his back. He is a vortex for the gods: they are unreal to others until he touches them. Latro falls for the amazon girl who are \"daughters of Ares\" and becomes extremely depressed when one dies. The traditional enemy of Ares is the boar, and Latro flushes him out. Latro makes love to Aphrodite, in some stories the wife of Ares. Latro become despressed in the manumission ceremony when he sees the slaves promised their freedom slain by the spartans instead of freed, though he can't remember what has so upset him. \n \nLet's look at the concluding poem of Soldier of Arete at the olympics: \"you quench the bolt, the lighning's fearful fire, the eagle rests his wings, that never tire; to hear you shaken by your song, Fell Ares quits the spear proud throng.\" Ares is tired of war and leaves it behind, or at least this particular conflict: he has quit the war mongering crowd.\n \n Thamyris starts addressing Latro\nas Pleistorus in Chapter 24 of Soldier of Arete, and Pleistorus is their version of the war god Ares. Also, Pleistorus has been missing from his temple for a very very long time, and is equated with Ahura Mazda as well in the book, who is for all intents and purposes the \"great\" good god most similar to the Christian God.\n \nOne more thing, and this is new. Xalmoxes, the boar shape changer, gave his followers the promise of immortality and heaven with a resurrection of the body. (a historical figure) He disappeared into the ground for three years and then emerged. As the enemy here of Ares, he predates Christian \"resurection\"/heaven philosophy because it is a false version of what, I think, Ahura Mazda will bring when he assimilates the turning away from war for war's sake: the peace of the world that will allow Jesus to be born.\n \nLatro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea\nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is\nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as\nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete. this would make her Hera, who\nwould be Ares mother (the sphinx says, I am your mother, and your mother's mother in Latro's memory palace).\n\nIf latro is the avatar of Ares/Pleistorus, trapped in human form [remember, pleistorus has been missing for a long time] then some of latro's abilities make sense. His disillusionment with war leads to the conclusion: Ares has given up on war and death as cruelty, and as ahura mazda this is the ethos change that will culminate in the death of Pan and the birth of Christ, prompted by the character change in Ahura Mazda from his experiences either riding or \"as\" Latro.\n\nHowever, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series:\nthe Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken over\nthe old ways. If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles mad, and he wants the Spartans to be vanquished. The remains of the achaens are symbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in\nSoldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then takes\ninto Sparta with him. He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him\n of things, and helps him remember. I don't know if anyone else has said\nanything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or\nbull-killer) in chapter 33. He later makes a pipe for io and begins dancing,\nwhere Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus. Aglaus is a satyr,\nwho chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him. So, Latro is\nsurrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and he is probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.\n\nWhy would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of\nhis past? Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember. The\nmemory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus'\nservices after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of\nAglaus' effect on his memory.\n\nIn the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete, we\nsee several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the\nSpartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains. Aglaus and Lykaon seems\nto represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph\nof Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been said).\n I'm pretty sure that\nAchilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to insure\nthat they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that\nLatro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.\n\n\n \nNow, a few interesting statements\" \"I know ares is the war god here ... like Pleistorus. But this isn't war. How can anybody say that the man who runs fastest shows his arete?\"\n \nIs latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares\n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.) There is that big discussion at the beginning of\nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a\nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought\nthis\nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone\ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another\nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares\nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other\nstatements\nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King\n Kotys for his\ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially\ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of\nAres. Also,\nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is \"inside\"\nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before\nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't come\naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\" But I think he\ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with\nLatro). Could\nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son? And could Latro's disillusionment with war be teaching ahura Mazda in such a way that will prompt the shift of the zeitgeist to Christianity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's brilliant. I always suspected Latro was possessed by a god, but \nwhich one? this is a well-researched answer.\n\nIs it possible that he was at first \"visited\" by Ares after his head \nwound simply because he has been a good soldier, then \nsubsequently/simultaneously by Ahura because he has been even \"better\" \nas a god (Ares himself being in reality an aspect of \"Ahura,\" at least \nas far as his more noble qualities)?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T02:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1324083274.30781.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Marc. Very interesting. Im still reading Soldier of the Mist\nbut when Im done Ill let you know what I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI will start with some general facts before going to the specifics of the\n\"identity issue\" I think is in some way lurking in Latro. this is kind of\ncomplicated in terms of text but you should pay attention to a few thiings\nabout Latros nature. Some of this is cribbed together from old posts, so\nthis may seem a little jumbled.\n\n\" Do you not know that I canot be harmed by a common mortal?\"\nLatro: \"No, I don't know that. Nor that I'm a common mortal. perhaps I\nam. Perhaps not.\"\n\n\nFirst, some particulars about Latro: he wins combat like the olympic\ncompetition at the end of Arete, unless instructed to \"throw the match\"\n(though he did lose at least one other wrestling match). He pushes the\nboulder of Sisyphus up the hill when Sisyphus can't do it, though Sisyphus\nis a demigod. Nike or some victory follows him around, though always at his\nback. He is a vortex for the gods: they are unreal to others until he\ntouches them. Latro falls for the amazon girl who are \"daughters of Ares\"\nand becomes extremely depressed when one dies. The traditional enemy of\nAres is the boar, and Latro flushes him out. Latro makes love to Aphrodite,\nin some stories the wife of Ares. Latro become despressed in the\nmanumission ceremony when he sees the slaves promised their freedom slain by\nthe spartans instead of freed, though he can't remember what has so upset\nhim.\n\nLet's look at the concluding poem of Soldier of Arete at the olympics: \"you\nquench the bolt, the lighning's fearful fire, the eagle rests his wings,\nthat never tire; to hear you shaken by your song, Fell Ares quits the spear\nproud throng.\" Ares is tired of war and leaves it behind, or at least this\nparticular conflict: he has quit the war mongering crowd.\n\n Thamyris starts addressing Latro\nas Pleistorus in Chapter 24 of Soldier of Arete, and Pleistorus is their\nversion of the war god Ares. Also, Pleistorus has been missing from his\ntemple for a very very long time, and is equated with Ahura Mazda as well in\nthe book, who is for all intents and purposes the \"great\" good god most\nsimilar to the Christian God.\n\nOne more thing, and this is new. Xalmoxes, the boar shape changer, gave his\nfollowers the promise of immortality and heaven with a resurrection of the\nbody. (a historical figure) He disappeared into the ground for three years\nand then emerged. As the enemy here of Ares, he predates Christian\n\"resurection\"/heaven philosophy because it is a false version of what, I\nthink, Ahura Mazda will bring when he assimilates the turning away from war\nfor war's sake: the peace of the world that will allow Jesus to be born.\n\nLatro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea\nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is\nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro\nas\nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete. this would make her Hera, who\nwould be Ares mother (the sphinx says, I am your mother, and your mother's\nmother in Latro's memory palace).\n\nIf latro is the avatar of Ares/Pleistorus, trapped in human form [remember,\npleistorus has been missing for a long time] then some of latro's abilities\nmake sense. His disillusionment with war leads to the conclusion: Ares has\ngiven up on war and death as cruelty, and as ahura mazda this is the ethos\nchange that will culminate in the death of Pan and the birth of Christ,\nprompted by the character change in Ahura Mazda from his experiences either\nriding or \"as\" Latro.\n\nHowever, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series:\nthe Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken\nover\nthe old ways. If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles\nmad, and he wants the Spartans to be vanquished. The remains of the achaens\nare symbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in\nSoldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then\ntakes\ninto Sparta with him. He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him\n of things, and helps him remember. I don't know if anyone else has said\nanything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or\nbull-killer) in chapter 33. He later makes a pipe for io and begins\ndancing,\nwhere Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus. Aglaus is a satyr,\nwho chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him. So, Latro\nis\nsurrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and\nhe is probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.\n\nWhy would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of\nhis past? Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember. The\nmemory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus'\nservices after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of\nAglaus' effect on his memory.\n\nIn the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete,\nwe\nsee several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the\nSpartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains. Aglaus and Lykaon seems\nto represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph\nof Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been\nsaid).\n I'm pretty sure that\nAchilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to\ninsure\nthat they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that\nLatro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.\n\n\n\nNow, a few interesting statements\" \"I know ares is the war god here ... like\nPleistorus. But this isn't war. How can anybody say that the man who runs\nfastest shows his arete?\"\n\nIs latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares\n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.)? There is that big discussion at the beginning of\nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a\nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought\nthis\nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone\ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another\nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares\nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other\nstatements\nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King\n Kotys for his\ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially\ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of\nAres. Also,\nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is\n\"inside\"\nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before\nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't\ncome\naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\"? But I think he\ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with\nLatro). Could\nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son? And could Latro's\ndisillusionment with war be teaching ahura Mazda in such a way that will\nprompt the shift of the zeitgeist to Christianity?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T02:45:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1324083274.30781.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Impressive work. I haven't read Sidon, but I re-read the others\nrecently, and this seems like it might be right." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-17T15:46:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro for Larry (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: > If latro is the avatar of Ares/Pleistorus, trapped in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "human form [remember,pleistorus has been missing for a long time] then " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "some of latro's abilities> make sense. His disillusionment with war leads " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to the conclusion: Ares has given up on war and death as cruelty," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGene Wolfe: Pas is certainly not Zeus. (No doubt he would like to be.) The \n\nclassical gods are, in general, not as people today imagine them. Ares is \n\nthe *soldier god*, not the war god, for example. Aphrodite is the sex goddess, \n\nnot the love goddess; the love god is Eros, her son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Some Moments with the Magus: An Interview with Gene Wolfe\nby Nick Gevers, Michael Andre-Driussi, and James Jordan \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }