{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6150", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6150, "subject": "Agia's Weapons", "messages": 47, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-12-19T19:33:09+00:00", "last": "2011-12-22T13:56:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-19T19:33:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Petersen: http://silkandhornheresy.blogspot.com/2010/06/reading-wolfe-is-dream-like-another.html\n\n \n\nNice essay, Daniel! I found the graphic intriguing as well. The dagger put me in mind\n\nof a topic from the past which might be worth bringing up- Agia's weapons.\n\n \n\nI find the description of Agia's four weapons to go beyond what would be needed for\n\n\"background color\" and I've considered that they might have symbolic significance:\n\n \n\n1. Agia mentions a \"misericorde\" sold by her shop with which she wishes she could stab\n\nSeverian. The name of this slim blade means \"divine mercy\" and was used to provide a\n\nquick, painless death to mortally wounded knights on the battlefield. This sounds like\n\nthe weapon of a Pelerine to me.\n\n \n\n2. Her \"athame\" is the warlock's blade and the occult nature of this weapons is likely\n\nassociated with her scratching of a \"jurupari\" image. The juripari is a S. American \n\nfish and mythical demon. Since both are known for using their mouth as a sort of cage, \n\nI think this connects Agia to the witches (Fomalhaut) and the great beasts of the Urth\n\nsuch as Ouroboros.\n\n\nI think the poison on that sword eventually provides a connection between her and the assassin\n\nthat Severian encounters in the Secret House on Flood Day.\n\n \n\n3. The crooked dagger she carries at Casdoe's place obviously connects Agia to Thrax. Why, \n\nif she is from Nessus? I suspect this connects to weapon 1 and implies a family connection.\n\nThe only Pelerine we know in Thrax is Cyriaca (who plans to escape to Nessus to cook and sew).\n\nCyriaca is old enough to be Severian's mother but perhaps she is his aunt? Or are there cloned\n\nversions of Catherin involved here? Either way, the physical descriptions match up nicely for\n\nan aunt/cousin relationship to Severian, if Agia's and Aguilus' father has red hair. I think \n\nhe does.\n\n \n\n4. The \"lucivee\" with which Agia slaps Severian's face might be the rare case in BotNS of WOlfe \n\ninventing a word. I can't find a reference to it as a weapon though perhaps others can. If we go \n\nto the French (as for misericorde) it refers to a lynx, so I guess we can conclude it to be akin\n\nto a cats claws weapon.\n\n \n\nThe lucivee attaches to the hand with a palm bar and rings for two fingers. Thus if held with a\n\nflat palm it can be a slapping weapon. But if a fist is made, the flate blades extend between the\n\nfingers and become (as Mantis described his vision of it to me) a \"Wolverine set of claws\" for \n\nslashing.\n\n \n\nThe thing is, the claws used by the Jungle Sorcerers are the same thing. Palm bar with rings, blades\n\nfor slashing. So this weapon connects Agia to them in some manner. I think it is related to Weapon\n\n2 and also ties Agia to the demonic and occult figures on Urth who are allied with the giant beast\n\nmonsters of Urth as enemies of the New Sun. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-19T19:51:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nDaniel Petersen:\nhttp://silkandhornheresy.blogspot.com/2010/06/reading-wolfe-is-dream-like-another.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice essay, Daniel! I found the graphic intriguing as well. The dagger put\nme in mind\n\nof a topic from the past which might be worth bringing up- Agia's weapons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha, thanks, Lee! (You just got on my good side - let's see how long you\ncan stay there, heh heh.)\n\nThe rest of your post is unfortunately beyond me. I'm not that intimate\nwith the minutiae of New Sun yet. But I think a study of weaponry on Urth\nwould be very fascinating and fruitful. I'll venture the one comment that\n*if* her 'lucivee' is indeed a claw of sorts, I would bet all that Wolfe\nwas aware of its play off of the Claw of the Conciliator. One comparison\nis that hers is for aggression toward others whereas the Claw harms the\nConciliator for the healing of others (as Severian has it in his meditation\nat one point: I'm not going to dig out the reference right now).\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-19T20:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok here's the passage. Severian is speaking I believe (chapter XXI in\nSotL):\n\n\"What I was going to tell you was that the existence of that relic seems to\nhave given some people the idea that the Conciliator used claws as weapons.\n I have sometimes doubted that he existed; but if such a person ever lived,\nI'm sure that he used his weapons largely against himself. Do you\nunderstand what I am saying?\"\n\nI doubt that he did, but he nodded.\n\n\"When we were on the path, we found a charm against the coming of the New\nSun. The three-colored men, who I think are the ones who have passed this\ntest, use claws of steel. I think they must want to hold back the coming\nof the New sun so they can take his place and perhaps usurp his powers. If\n- \"\n\nOutside, someone screamed. [The chapter ends here.]\n\nI would be inclined to treat this passage as an interpretive key to the\nwhole question of weapons in BotNS. For example, self-sacrificial\nweapons/claws bring in the New Sun. Weapons/claws of steel resist the\ncoming of the New Sun, seek to replace him.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nOn Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen:\nhttp://silkandhornheresy.blogspot.com/2010/06/reading-wolfe-is-dream-like-another.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice essay, Daniel! I found the graphic intriguing as well. The dagger\nput me in mind\n\nof a topic from the past which might be worth bringing up- Agia's weapons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ha, thanks, Lee! (You just got on my good side - let's see how long you\ncan stay there, heh heh.)\n\nThe rest of your post is unfortunately beyond me. I'm not that intimate\nwith the minutiae of New Sun yet. But I think a study of weaponry on Urth\nwould be very fascinating and fruitful. I'll venture the one comment that\n*if* her 'lucivee' is indeed a claw of sorts, I would bet all that Wolfe\nwas aware of its play off of the Claw of the Conciliator. One comparison\nis that hers is for aggression toward others whereas the Claw harms the\nConciliator for the healing of others (as Severian has it in his meditation\nat one point: I'm not going to dig out the reference right now).\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EEFA13C.8010107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-19T20:40:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2011 2:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDaniel Petersen: http://silkandhornheresy.blogspot.com/2010/06/reading-wolfe-is-dream-like-another.html\n\n\n\nNice essay, Daniel! I found the graphic intriguing as well. The dagger put me in mind\n\nof a topic from the past which might be worth bringing up- Agia's weapons.\n\n\n\nI find the description of Agia's four weapons to go beyond what would be needed for\n\n\"background color\" and I've considered that they might have symbolic significance:\n\n\n\n1. Agia mentions a \"misericorde\" sold by her shop with which she wishes she could stab\n\nSeverian. The name of this slim blade means \"divine mercy\" and was used to provide a\n\nquick, painless death to mortally wounded knights on the battlefield. This sounds like\n\nthe weapon of a Pelerine to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. Doesn't fit the rest, but a weapon is a weapon when you need one.\n\nOr are you simply suggesting it came from a Pelerine, not that Agia is one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Her \"athame\" is the warlock's blade and the occult nature of this weapons is likely\n\nassociated with her scratching of a \"jurupari\" image. The juripari is a S. American\n\nfish and mythical demon. Since both are known for using their mouth as a sort of cage,\n\nI think this connects Agia to the witches (Fomalhaut) and the great beasts of the Urth\n\nsuch as Ouroboros.\n\n\nI think the poison on that sword eventually provides a connection between her and the assassin\n\nthat Severian encounters in the Secret House on Flood Day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that we are never told the identity of the assassin. We do \nknow that he is male (or so Severian assumes., not being around to find \nout), so presumably he's not Agia, but he could be of the Vodalarii \n(Agiarii?). Note that he was a \"master swordsman.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. The crooked dagger she carries at Casdoe's place obviously connects Agia to Thrax. Why,\n\nif she is from Nessus? I suspect this connects to weapon 1 and implies a family connection.\n\nThe only Pelerine we know in Thrax is Cyriaca (who plans to escape to Nessus to cook and sew).\n\nCyriaca is old enough to be Severian's mother but perhaps she is his aunt? Or are there cloned\n\nversions of Catherin involved here? Either way, the physical descriptions match up nicely for\n\nan aunt/cousin relationship to Severian, if Agia's and Aguilus' father has red hair. I think\n\nhe does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Agia has followed Severian through Thrax, she could have picked up \nthe weapon there. One difficulty is explaining how Agia learned to use \nit, but it has already been shown that she is a weapons expert.\n\nBetter look up that hair color reference!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. The \"lucivee\" with which Agia slaps Severian's face might be the rare case in BotNS of WOlfe\n\ninventing a word. I can't find a reference to it as a weapon though perhaps others can. If we go\n\nto the French (as for misericorde) it refers to a lynx, so I guess we can conclude it to be akin\n\nto a cats claws weapon.\n\n\n\nThe lucivee attaches to the hand with a palm bar and rings for two fingers. Thus if held with a\n\nflat palm it can be a slapping weapon. But if a fist is made, the flate blades extend between the\n\nfingers and become (as Mantis described his vision of it to me) a \"Wolverine set of claws\" for\n\nslashing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, presumably it resembles the Southeast Asian \"tiger's claw,\" a \nsimple, concealable assassin's weapon. Your description is likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thing is, the claws used by the Jungle Sorcerers are the same thing. Palm bar with rings, blades\n\nfor slashing. So this weapon connects Agia to them in some manner. I think it is related to Weapon\n\n2 and also ties Agia to the demonic and occult figures on Urth who are allied with the giant beast\n\nmonsters of Urth as enemies of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a leap, because no connection from Sorcerers to Beasts \nhas been made. Plausible, just not shown.\n\nHowever, we do know of at least these three links to the sorcerers \n(athame, lucivee, juripari). If Erebus and Abaia follow the model of \nCthulhu and his human slaves, I'd expect to see sorcerers and assassins \nworking for him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-19T21:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EEFA13C.8010107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did anyone ever consider that the unnamed assassin in the House\nAbsolute be Miles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/19/2011 2:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen:\nhttp://silkandhornheresy.blogspot.com/2010/06/reading-wolfe-is-dream-like-another.html\n\n\n\nNice essay, Daniel! I found the graphic intriguing as well. The dagger put\nme in mind\n\nof a topic from the past which might be worth bringing up- Agia's weapons.\n\n\n\nI find the description of Agia's four weapons to go beyond what would be\nneeded for\n\n\"background color\" and I've considered that they might have symbolic\nsignificance:\n\n\n\n1. Agia mentions a \"misericorde\" sold by her shop with which she wishes\nshe could stab\n\nSeverian. The name of this slim blade means \"divine mercy\" and was used to\nprovide a\n\nquick, painless death to mortally wounded knights on the battlefield. This\nsounds like\n\nthe weapon of a Pelerine to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. Doesn't fit the rest, but a weapon is a weapon when you need one.\n\nOr are you simply suggesting it came from a Pelerine, not that Agia is one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. Her \"athame\" is the warlock's blade and the occult nature of this\nweapons is likely\n\nassociated with her scratching of a \"jurupari\" image. The juripari is a S.\nAmerican\n\nfish and mythical demon. Since both are known for using their mouth as a\nsort of cage,\n\nI think this connects Agia to the witches (Fomalhaut) and the great beasts\nof the Urth\n\nsuch as Ouroboros.\n\n\nI think the poison on that sword eventually provides a connection between\nher and the assassin\n\nthat Severian encounters in the Secret House on Flood Day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true that we are never told the identity of the assassin. We do\nknow that he is male (or so Severian assumes., not being around to find\nout), so presumably he's not Agia, but he could be of the Vodalarii\n(Agiarii?). Note that he was a \"master swordsman.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. The crooked dagger she carries at Casdoe's place obviously connects\nAgia to Thrax. Why,\n\nif she is from Nessus? I suspect this connects to weapon 1 and implies a\nfamily connection.\n\nThe only Pelerine we know in Thrax is Cyriaca (who plans to escape to\nNessus to cook and sew).\n\nCyriaca is old enough to be Severian's mother but perhaps she is his aunt?\nOr are there cloned\n\nversions of Catherin involved here? Either way, the physical descriptions\nmatch up nicely for\n\nan aunt/cousin relationship to Severian, if Agia's and Aguilus' father has\nred hair. I think\n\nhe does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Agia has followed Severian through Thrax, she could have picked up\nthe weapon there. One difficulty is explaining how Agia learned to use\nit, but it has already been shown that she is a weapons expert.\n\nBetter look up that hair color reference!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. The \"lucivee\" with which Agia slaps Severian's face might be the rare\ncase in BotNS of WOlfe\n\ninventing a word. I can't find a reference to it as a weapon though\nperhaps others can. If we go\n\nto the French (as for misericorde) it refers to a lynx, so I guess we can\nconclude it to be akin\n\nto a cats claws weapon.\n\n\n\nThe lucivee attaches to the hand with a palm bar and rings for two\nfingers. Thus if held with a\n\nflat palm it can be a slapping weapon. But if a fist is made, the flate\nblades extend between the\n\nfingers and become (as Mantis described his vision of it to me) a\n\"Wolverine set of claws\" for\n\nslashing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, presumably it resembles the Southeast Asian \"tiger's claw,\" a\nsimple, concealable assassin's weapon. Your description is likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The thing is, the claws used by the Jungle Sorcerers are the same thing.\nPalm bar with rings, blades\n\nfor slashing. So this weapon connects Agia to them in some manner. I think\nit is related to Weapon\n\n2 and also ties Agia to the demonic and occult figures on Urth who are\nallied with the giant beast\n\nmonsters of Urth as enemies of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a leap, because no connection from Sorcerers to Beasts\nhas been made. Plausible, just not shown.\n\nHowever, we do know of at least these three links to the sorcerers\n(athame, lucivee, juripari). If Erebus and Abaia follow the model of\nCthulhu and his human slaves, I'd expect to see sorcerers and assassins\nworking for him.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T03:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: Ha, thanks, Lee! (You just got on my good side - let's see how long you\ncan stay there, heh heh.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh, yep. Who knows! People are different online than in the real world but one way I am \n\nsimilar is that I tend to mirror the speech patterns of the person I am talking to. It \n\nisn't fully conscious and it has led to some amusing episodes in my life. If you look at\n\nmy posts here over the last 6-7 years I think you'll see the pattern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The rest of your post is unfortunately beyond me. I'm not that intimate\nwith the minutiae of New Sun yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. yep. While I am far more familiar with BotNS minutiae than any other Wolfe work. I agree\n\nthat making so much of Agia's weapons seems a stretch. But then I remember the even more \n\nscanty evidence of a major impending Flood in the first 4 books and I remember that Wolfe\n\nis fully capable of hiding his mysteries in such fleeting,innocuous references." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"What I was going to tell you was that the existence of that relic seems to\nhave given some people the idea that the Conciliator used claws as weapons.\nI have sometimes doubted that he existed; but if such a person ever lived,\nI'm sure that he used his weapons largely against himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGreat passage quote! I interpret this to coincide with the fact of Severian becoming highly\n\ndrained and exhausted each time he uses The Claw. Also the recipients of Severian's power\n\nfind the blue light to be warm (as they absorb the positive energy I guess) while \n\nSeverian himself feels it to be cold.\n\n \n\nIt may also allude to the pains and tribulations of Jesus, Hercules, Oedipus and any other\n\nhero Wolfe may have drawn from in creating Severian. Like Severian, these guys had the\n\nweight of the world on their shoulders and suffered much personal injury in response." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: True. Doesn't fit the rest, but a weapon is a weapon when you need one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or are you simply suggesting it came from a Pelerine, not that Agia is one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI am suggesting Cyriaca is Agia's mother and bequeathed her twins the shop before moving\n\nto Thrax to live with her husband. She plans to return to Nessu and the shop and sew and \n\ncook for her kids to escape her strangulation sentence, not knowing Agia and Agilus' fate.\n\nSo the misericorde was Cyriaca's but Agia sold it before meeting Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true that we are never told the identity of the assassin. We do \nknow that he is male (or so Severian assumes., not being around to find \nout), so presumably he's not Agia, but he could be of the Vodalarii \n(Agiarii?). Note that he was a \"master swordsman.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt is hard to see past Severian's assessment of maleness. But I am willing to do so because\n\n(iirc) there are only two poisoned blades (among many) in all five books. The pattern of\n\nimportance in Agia's weapons also nudges me in that direction. The assassin has been dead a\n\nlong time, which would be necessary if it were Agia since otherwise she'd be Valeria's age\n\nand not likely to be very agile.\n\n \n\nThanks for the suggestion that it might be a Vodalarii (Agiaii? Agiaeae? heh). I'd never \n\nconsidered that possibility. I still lean toward it being Agia for the same reason I lean \n\nagainst Larry's suggestion that the assassin is Miles. \n\n \n\nThe assassin episode takes place at the very end of the story. It seems compltely unnecessary. \n\nWhy give Valeria such a painful death when she is about to drown anyway? But if the assassin is \n\nAgia it gives the scene both purpose and symmetry. In the beginning of the story, Severian takes \n\nthe life of the person most dear to Agia. At the end of the story, Agia returns the favor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Better look up that hair color reference!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh. Well perhaps unfortuately, this part partakes in my Father Inire theory. We aren't given a\n\nhair color for most of his disguised, ancient appearances. But I think two Inire appearances\n\ndisplay red hair color. Cyriaca, like Catherine, is dark haired. Dark+red= chestnut, which is\n\nAgia and Agilus' hair color. (oh, and their bastardly father, aside from being Inire, is Cyriaca's\n\nmysterious, cosmically knowledegeable \"uncle\".) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T10:09:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen:\n\"What I was going to tell you was that the existence of that relic seems\nto\nhave given some people the idea that the Conciliator used claws as\nweapons.\nI have sometimes doubted that he existed; but if such a person ever lived,\nI'm sure that he used his weapons largely against himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Great passage quote! I interpret this to coincide with the fact of\nSeverian becoming highly\n\ndrained and exhausted each time he uses The Claw. Also the recipients of\nSeverian's power\n\nfind the blue light to be warm (as they absorb the positive energy I\nguess) while\n\nSeverian himself feels it to be cold.\n\n\nIt may also allude to the pains and tribulations of Jesus, Hercules,\nOedipus and any other\n\nhero Wolfe may have drawn from in creating Severian. Like Severian, these\nguys had the\n\nweight of the world on their shoulders and suffered much personal injury\nin response." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On this note, I want to weigh in on something I've wanted to comment on for\na while. Surely Wolfe sees all other heroes and legends and divinities and\nrites and so on finding their fulfilment in Christ as understood by the\nCatholic Church. He certainly allusively invites us to feel resonances\nwith Hercules or Dionysus or whoever... but surely these summed up,\ncentred, and superseded in Christ? (For Wolfe. And his fiction.)\n\n(Leslie Newbiggin, a 20th century British theologian and missionary in\nIndia for thirty years, would be a prominent exponent of this kind of\nmissiology and soteriology - i.e. rather than Christ simply destroying and\nreplacing all other 'pagan rivals', he fulfills what is best in them. This\nidea seems intimately woven right through Wolfe's works to me.)\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T12:26:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOn this note, I want to weigh in on something I've wanted to comment \non for a while. Surely Wolfe sees all other heroes and legends and divinities \nand rites and so on finding their fulfilment in Christ as understood by the \nCatholic Church. He certainly allusively invites us to feel resonances with \n#Hercules or Dionysus or whoever... but surely these summed up, centred, \nand superseded in Christ? (For Wolfe. And his fiction.) \n\n(Leslie Newbiggin, a 20th century British theologian and missionary in India \nfor thirty years, would be a prominent exponent of this kind of missiology and \nsoteriology - i.e. rather than Christ simply destroying and replacing all other \n'pagan rivals', he fulfills what is best in them. This idea seems intimately \nwoven right through Wolfe's works to me.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that is true as far as pagan rivals is concerned. It is how I understand the references to Dionysus and various other gods in the Solar Cycle.\n\nHowever, I suspect Wolfe does not exclude the possibility of a continuing Revelation — i.e. that in some future, Christ might also be superseded, or that the Trinity might expand beyond three persons, or that an alien equivalent of Christ be incarnated. That is to say, I don’t think he would consider the doctrines of Rome to be set in stone for eternity.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T13:26:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: On this note, I want to weigh in on something I've wanted to comment on for\na while. Surely Wolfe sees all other heroes and legends and divinities and rites and so on \nfinding their fulfilment in Christ as understood by the Catholic Church. He certainly \nallusively invites us to feel resonances with Hercules or Dionysus or whoever... but surely \nthese summed up, centred, and superseded in Christ? (For Wolfe. And his fiction.).....\nrather than Christ simply destroying and replacing all other 'pagan rivals', he fulfills what \nis best in them. This idea seems intimately woven right through Wolfe's works to me.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree completely. From Wolfe interviews, I get the impression his personal philosophy is based \non the following logic: \"the ancients were as intelligent as we are. They were not going to \nbuild mighty monuments and temples over wisps of imagination. Thus the pagan gods were real, in \nsome way. Being real, they were part of God's plan and must have served a useful purpose in getting \nus where we are now.\"\n \nOn the other hand, I am struck by how so much of Wolfe's work shows a glaring absence of Christ. I \ndon't doubt his faith but I perhaps he finds a direct mention of Jesus/Christianity as antithetical \nto his brand of fiction. Too real? Too constricting?\n \n[I rarely do this here, but on a personal note, I will disagree with Wolfe a little. If future \narchaeologists excavated Disney World they would be likely to get a false sense of how real we \nconsider Mickey Mouse and Star Wars and Muppets to be. We humans are willing to invest a lot of\ntime and effort into enshrining what we know or suspect to be revered fiction. Same principle applies\nto the D.C. Mall and other political shrines around the world. The amusement parks and temples and \nmonuments aren't really about gods. They are about us and what we want/need.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I suspect Wolfe does not exclude the possibility of a continuing Revelation — i.e. \nthat in some future, Christ might also be superseded, or that the Trinity might expand beyond three \npersons, or that an alien equivalent of Christ be incarnated. That is to say, I don’t think he would \nconsider the doctrines of Rome to be set in stone for eternity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree. Not sure if Dan'l would. :- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF09D59.9000608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-20T14:36:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/19/2011 10:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: True. Doesn't fit the rest, but a weapon is a weapon when you need one.\nOr are you simply suggesting it came from a Pelerine, not that Agia is one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am suggesting Cyriaca is Agia's mother and bequeathed her twins the shop before moving\n\nto Thrax to live with her husband. She plans to return to Nessu and the shop and sew and\n\ncook for her kids to escape her strangulation sentence, not knowing Agia and Agilus' fate.\n\nSo the misericorde was Cyriaca's but Agia sold it before meeting Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly, but what does this explain except to connect some loose \nthreads? it seems incidental---it doesn't explain Agia herself, or Cyriaca.\n\nBut intuitively, I agree that if there is a Pelerine blade in a shop (I \nnote it had an \"ivy-root handle\" if that helps), it came from a Pelerine \nwe know. Do Agilus/Agia ever say where they got the shop from? I recall \nthey do but not what they said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's true that we are never told the identity of the assassin. We do\nknow that he is male (or so Severian assumes., not being around to find\nout), so presumably he's not Agia, but he could be of the Vodalarii\n(Agiarii?). Note that he was a \"master swordsman.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is hard to see past Severian's assessment of maleness. But I am willing to do so because\n\n(iirc) there are only two poisoned blades (among many) in all five books. The pattern of\n\nimportance in Agia's weapons also nudges me in that direction. The assassin has been dead a\n\nlong time, which would be necessary if it were Agia since otherwise she'd be Valeria's age\n\nand not likely to be very agile.\n\n\n\nThanks for the suggestion that it might be a Vodalarii (Agiaii? Agiaeae? heh). I'd never\n\nconsidered that possibility. I still lean toward it being Agia for the same reason I lean\n\nagainst Larry's suggestion that the assassin is Miles.\n\n\n\nThe assassin episode takes place at the very end of the story. It seems compltely unnecessary.\n\nWhy give Valeria such a painful death when she is about to drown anyway? But if the assassin is\n\nAgia it gives the scene both purpose and symmetry. In the beginning of the story, Severian takes\n\nthe life of the person most dear to Agia. At the end of the story, Agia returns the favor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree. The skill of the assassin is telling---only a pro \ncould have gotten as far as this one did, but who at court would have \nhired such a person? what person at court would have been so skilled? \nwhat exultant would have done the job personally? If there had been \npalace intrigue, wouldn't the body have been dangerous evidence \nimplicating members of a conspiracy? Agia as assassin avoids those \nquestions, since no one would have known she was there.\n\nI wonder about her apparent ability to get past locked doors. But then, \nno one at court would know the words for secret doors in the throne room." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Better look up that hair color reference!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Well perhaps unfortuately, this part partakes in my Father Inire theory. We aren't given a\n\nhair color for most of his disguised, ancient appearances. But I think two Inire appearances\n\ndisplay red hair color. Cyriaca, like Catherine, is dark haired. Dark+red= chestnut, which is\n\nAgia and Agilus' hair color. (oh, and their bastardly father, aside from being Inire, is Cyriaca's\n\nmysterious, cosmically knowledegeable \"uncle\".)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Inire have no control over his own bastard children?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF09D90.90504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-20T14:37:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2011 5:09 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nOn Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n >Daniel Petersen:\n >\"What I was going to tell you was that the existence of that\n relic seems to\n >have given some people the idea that the Conciliator used claws\n as weapons.\n >I have sometimes doubted that he existed; but if such a person\n ever lived,\n >I'm sure that he used his weapons largely against himself.\n\n\n Great passage quote! I interpret this to coincide with the fact of\n Severian becoming highly\n\n drained and exhausted each time he uses The Claw. Also the\n recipients of Severian's power\n\n find the blue light to be warm (as they absorb the positive energy\n I guess) while\n\n Severian himself feels it to be cold.\n\n\n It may also allude to the pains and tribulations of Jesus,\n Hercules, Oedipus and any other\n\n hero Wolfe may have drawn from in creating Severian. Like\n Severian, these guys had the\n\n weight of the world on their shoulders and suffered much personal\n injury in response.\n\n\nOn this note, I want to weigh in on something I've wanted to comment \non for a while. Surely Wolfe sees all other heroes and legends and \ndivinities and rites and so on finding their fulfilment in Christ as \nunderstood by the Catholic Church. He certainly allusively invites us \nto feel resonances with Hercules or Dionysus or whoever... but surely \nthese summed up, centred, and superseded in Christ? (For Wolfe. And \nhis fiction.)\n\n(Leslie Newbiggin, a 20th century British theologian and missionary in \nIndia for thirty years, would be a prominent exponent of this kind of \nmissiology and soteriology - i.e. rather than Christ simply destroying \nand replacing all other 'pagan rivals', he fulfills what is best in \nthem. This idea seems intimately woven right through Wolfe's works to \nme.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T16:28:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHowever, I suspect Wolfe does not exclude the possibility of a continuing\nRevelation — i.e. that in some future, Christ might also be superseded, or\nthat the Trinity might expand beyond three persons, or that an alien\nequivalent of Christ be incarnated. That is to say, I don’t think he would\nconsider the doctrines of Rome to be set in stone for eternity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends on which doctrines you mean. Those defined infallibly, are set\nin stone for eternity. As for the rest ... well, the Church, on the\none hand, says that the time of public revelation ended with the\nclosing of Scripture, but allows for a kind of private revelation in\nprayer; yet at the same time it allows for a kind of public revelation\n_through the Church_, through the \"development of doctrine\" and the\nteaching authority (_Magisterium_) of the Church.\n\nIt's complicated..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T16:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But intuitively, I agree that if there is a Pelerine blade in a shop (I \nnote it had an \"ivy-root handle\" if that helps), it came from a Pelerine we know. Do \nAgilus/Agia ever say where they got the shop from? I recall they do but not what they said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIIRC, it was bequeathed to A & A by their mother. This tends to implies she is dead. But if\nCyriaca is their mother and just living far away, there is a second meaning to \"bequeath\" \nwhich refers to passing on possessions by the living. Thanks for reminding me of the ivy-\nroot handle. Previously I had no idea what significance that might have. Since the discussions\nin here of the past year or two, I am wondering if it is a (very) tangential reference to our\nfriend Dionysus. Ivy is a sort of vine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but what does this explain except to connect some loose threads? it seems incidental---it \ndoesn't explain Agia herself, or Cyriaca." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor me, it does. Because pursuing this line of thought ties both Agia and Cyriaca directly to\nFather Inire. And, within my F.I. theory, he (as demiurge) is connected to absolutely everything \nin this story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there had been palace intrigue, wouldn't the body have been dangerous evidence implicating \nmembers of a conspiracy? Agia as assassin avoids those questions, since no one would have known \nshe was there. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nInteresting points I hadn't considered. For me, Agia as the replacement for Vodalus and Father\nInire became cliff hangers, when UotNS was added to the story. We see Valeria when Severian\nreturns to House Absolute on Flood Day but where is Inire? Perhaps right where we last \"saw\" him \nin CotA: strategizing and intriguing, using his acquired assassin and autarchal enemy, Agia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder about her apparent ability to get past locked doors. But then, no one at court would know \nthe words for secret doors in the throne room." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is one guy who would...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Inire have no control over his own bastard children [and grandchildren]?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, I think he is obsessed with them, following them around, tracking them, manipulating them, playing\nthem against each other. I think he controls Agia as Hethor through most of the story, as her humble\nsex-entranced slave. Inire's letter suggests he has persuasive powers over Agia but doesn't reveal what\nthey are. Either way, that letter inextricably links Agia to Inire. And I've mentioned that I think \nCyriaca's uncle is Father Inire, largely due to his apparently exclusive (aside from Malrubius) knowlege\nof the cosmic history of humanity.\n \nRudesind is explicit in admitting that his meetings with Severian were not accidental but staged by Inire.\nI suspect the same is true for meetings with Agia, the Old Boatman, Dorcas, Talos and Baldanders, \nThe Cumaean, The Old Autarch, the Old Leech, probably even Typhon. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF0BB6B.1000801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T16:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (20-12-2011 16:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I suspect Wolfe does not exclude the possibility of a continuing\nRevelation — i.e. that in some future, Christ might also be superseded, or\nthat the Trinity might expand beyond three persons, or that an alien\nequivalent of Christ be incarnated. That is to say, I don’t think he would\nconsider the doctrines of Rome to be set in stone for eternity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Depends on which doctrines you mean. Those defined infallibly, are set\nin stone for eternity. As for the rest ... well, the Church, on the\none hand, says that the time of public revelation ended with the\nclosing of Scripture, but allows for a kind of private revelation in\nprayer; yet at the same time it allows for a kind of public revelation\n_through the Church_, through the \"development of doctrine\" and the\nteaching authority (_Magisterium_) of the Church.\n\nIt's complicated..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing is set in stone for eternity. God can revoke it at any moment. \nWhat's guaranteed is that the Church is _right_ in teaching what it teaches. \nThere's a difference. Though, yes, matters of Dogma aren't supposed to \nchange, ever, mostly because they relate to things which have happened in \nthe past, or happen continually - but those are very few, only a very small \npart of what the Church teaches.\nThe Trinity, of course, is Dogma. But not the nature of the downfall of \npagan gods." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T17:30:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF0BB6B.1000801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNothing is set in stone for eternity. God can revoke it at any moment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except, of course, for those things which _are_ set in stone for\neternity -- as you say, those things which have already happened (like\nthe Incarnaton), or are true eternally (like the Trinity)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's guaranteed is that the Church is _right_ in teaching what it teaches.\nThere's a difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, there's a subtle difference. The Magisterium doesn't claim\nthat everything it teaches is right; it claims that, in matters of\nfaith and morals, it will not be _wrong_. There is a gap between\n\"right\" and \"not wrong\" which allows for mysteries greater than human\nwords can teach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Trinity, of course, is Dogma. But not the nature of the downfall of\npagan gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely correct." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF0CC06.2010304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T17:55:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a time I know how to write, but it is long past.\nOne point though:\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (20-12-2011 17:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's guaranteed is that the Church is _right_ in teaching what it teaches.\nThere's a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, there's a subtle difference. The Magisterium doesn't claim\nthat everything it teaches is right; it claims that, in matters of\nfaith and morals, it will not be _wrong_. There is a gap between\n\"right\" and \"not wrong\" which allows for mysteries greater than human\nwords can teach." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. But that's not the point I was making. I wasn't saying everything \nthe Magisterium teaches is right, but rather that the Magisterium was right \nin teaching it. This allows a whole lot more of leeway..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T18:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF0CC06.2010304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, a subtilty that passed me by, and you were of course quite correct.\n\n2011/12/20 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was a time I know how to write, but it is long past.\nOne point though:\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (20-12-2011 17:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's guaranteed is that the Church is _right_ in teaching what it\nteaches.\nThere's a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, there's a subtle difference. The Magisterium doesn't claim\nthat everything it teaches is right; it claims that, in matters of\nfaith and morals, it will not be _wrong_. There is a gap between\n\"right\" and \"not wrong\" which allows for mysteries greater than human\nwords can teach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course. But that's not the point I was making. I wasn't saying everything\nthe Magisterium teaches is right, but rather that the Magisterium was right\nin teaching it. This allows a whole lot more of leeway...\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF0E32E.4090504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-20T19:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/20/2011 11:31 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: But intuitively, I agree that if there is a Pelerine blade in a shop (I\nnote it had an \"ivy-root handle\" if that helps), it came from a Pelerine we know. Do\nAgilus/Agia ever say where they got the shop from? I recall they do but not what they said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, it was bequeathed to A& A by their mother. This tends to implies she is dead. But if\nCyriaca is their mother and just living far away, there is a second meaning to \"bequeath\"\nwhich refers to passing on possessions by the living. Thanks for reminding me of the ivy-\nroot handle. Previously I had no idea what significance that might have. Since the discussions\nin here of the past year or two, I am wondering if it is a (very) tangential reference to our\nfriend Dionysus. Ivy is a sort of vine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure!\n\nI may have a problem with the use of \"bequeath,\" however. It was once \ncommon to give away all your possessions upon joining an order. Wouldn't \nshe have done this at that time, rather than when she left the \nPelerines? The misericorde would then be unexplained, since at that time \nit was not yet in her possession. But perhaps she went back after to \nsell her habit and accoutrements.\n\nAlso, once you bequeath, there are no takebacks. She'd have to know her \nchildren are dead to plan on going back to the shop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but what does this explain except to connect some loose threads? it seems incidental---it\ndoesn't explain Agia herself, or Cyriaca." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it does. Because pursuing this line of thought ties both Agia and Cyriaca directly to\nFather Inire. And, within my F.I. theory, he (as demiurge) is connected to absolutely everything\nin this story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. It's not that I don't want to see loose ends tied up...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If there had been palace intrigue, wouldn't the body have been dangerous evidence implicating\nmembers of a conspiracy? Agia as assassin avoids those questions, since no one would have known\nshe was there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting points I hadn't considered. For me, Agia as the replacement for Vodalus and Father\nInire became cliff hangers, when UotNS was added to the story. We see Valeria when Severian\nreturns to House Absolute on Flood Day but where is Inire? Perhaps right where we last \"saw\" him\nin CotA: strategizing and intriguing, using his acquired assassin and autarchal enemy, Agia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Inire wanted Valeria dead, she'd be dead, I would think. But the \ndeath of both Autarchs would have been difficult to plan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder about her apparent ability to get past locked doors. But then, no one at court would know\nthe words for secret doors in the throne room." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is one guy who would...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does Inire have no control over his own bastard children [and grandchildren]?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I think he is obsessed with them, following them around, tracking them, manipulating them, playing\nthem against each other. I think he controls Agia as Hethor through most of the story, as her humble\nsex-entranced slave. Inire's letter suggests he has persuasive powers over Agia but doesn't reveal what\nthey are. Either way, that letter inextricably links Agia to Inire. And I've mentioned that I think\nCyriaca's uncle is Father Inire, largely due to his apparently exclusive (aside from Malrubius) knowlege\nof the cosmic history of humanity.\n\nRudesind is explicit in admitting that his meetings with Severian were not accidental but staged by Inire.\nI suspect the same is true for meetings with Agia, the Old Boatman, Dorcas, Talos and Baldanders,\nThe Cumaean, The Old Autarch, the Old Leech, probably even Typhon. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, interesting. But was Agia not rather in control of Hethor?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1324409817.18109.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T19:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\nDavid Stockhoff: But intuitively, I agree that if there is a Pelerine blade \nin a shop (I \nnote it had an \"ivy-root handle\" if that helps)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for reminding me of \nthe ivy-root handle. Previously I had no idea what significance that might have. Since \nthe discussions\nin here of the past year or two, I am wondering if it is a (very) tangential \nreference to our\nfriend Dionysus. Ivy is a sort of vine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nAnd specifically associated with Dionysus, as at\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=XCDvuoZ8IzsC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind is explicit in admitting that his meetings with Severian were not \naccidental but staged by Inire.\nI suspect the same is true for meetings with Agia, the Old Boatman, Dorcas, \nTalos and Baldanders, \nThe Cumaean, The Old Autarch, the Old Leech, probably even Typhon. ????????????? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I suppose it's time to ask this question--not just of you, Lee. As I recall (I'm AWB), the aquastor of Malrubius tells Severian that \"powers above the stage\" are managing his life. When do we know who does that and why? For instance, is the resurrection of Dorcas an example? If so, who is or are responsible, and how do they manage it, and how does it serve their purposes to have him resurrect his grandmother or to have a relationship with her? The same questions apply to the examples above and every other incident that Father Inire or any other manipulator is supposed to be responsible for. The only thing I remember that Severian says on the subject is that the undines may have saved him to put a torturer on the throne.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T20:32:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<1324409817.18109.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I may have a problem with the use of \"bequeath,\" however. It was once \ncommon to give away all your possessions upon joining an order. Wouldn't she have done \nthis at that time, rather than when she left the Pelerines? The misericorde would then \nbe unexplained, since at that time it was not yet in her possession. But perhaps she \nwent back after to sell her habit and accoutrements." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy timeline would be more like this: young Cyriaca is a Pelerine. She is expelled because \nshe gets pregnant with twins whom she raises in Nessus, supporting herself with a used \nclothing store. Some of her old Pelerine stuff (like the misericorde) is put up for sale. \nLater on she meets and marries a dashing armiger from Thrax and leaves the store to her \nteenaged kids and leaves them to fend for themselves. The one thing she does keep is her \nscarlet habit, which Severian finds her dressed in at the masquerade party (ridotto) in \nThrax. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Inire wanted Valeria dead, she'd be dead, I would think. But the death of both Autarchs \nwould have been difficult to plan!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. It's hard to understand all the motivations. But my best guess would be that Inire\ngenerally set up Agia (like vodalus) to be an enemy of the Autarchy just as he (and the 17)\nsets up the Ascians to be an enemy against the Commonwealth. That is the eternal manipulation\n(like Palpatine in Star Wars, heh). Create two armies and pit them against each other \nand control everyone in the resulting mayhem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, interesting. But was Agia not rather in control of Hethor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe eternal question, even with slave and master. Who is controlling whom? If Hethor is Inire\nwe can see the parallel of attraction to young women (paracoita also). But I think the powers\nwho orchestrate Severian's adventures know he cannot be killed, thus they are using Agia (and\nAgilus) over and over with the assassination attempts. In my view, they seek to have his power.\n(which jibes with the quote Daniel recently provided) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T20:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: And specifically associated with Dionysus, as at\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=XCDvuoZ8IzsC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, thanks for that Jerry. And the ivy-wreathed Dionysus can be traced in\na direct line to the Green Man who is not so subtlely referenced in BotNS.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I suppose it's time to ask this question--not just of you, Lee. As I recall \n(I'm AWB), the aquastor of Malrubius tells Severian that \"powers above the stage\" \nare managing his life. When do we know who does that and why? For instance, is the \nresurrection of Dorcas an example? If so, who is or are responsible, and how do they \nmanage it, and how does it serve their purposes to have him resurrect his grandmother \nor to have a relationship with her? The same questions apply to the examples above \nand every other incident that Father Inire or any other manipulator is supposed to be \nresponsible for. The only thing I remember that Severian says on the subject is that \nthe undines may have saved him to put a torturer on the throne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think that is certainly a great mystery with no obvious answers provides. Peter Wright\n(in Attending Daedalus) suggests that Severian's life is all a big, deceptive manipulation\nby the Hiero-types- an alien race who are simply trying to propagate themselves.\n \nI see it in more mythological-religious terms. The powers in the oceans (Abaia, Erebus and\nthe other 15) and their agents are analogs to pagan gods/fallen angels. They know there are \nhigher powers in \"the heavens\" from whence they came, but they are attempting (like mythical \ngods/demons) to establish their own little fiefdom on Urth.\n\nThey are manipulating Severian because they know he is the \"chosen one\" for the heavenly Hiero-\ntypes and they hope to wrest the secret of his divine powers (healing and resurrection) before\nhe becomes aware of who and what he is. So many of the adventures Severian in maneuvered into\ninvolve resurrection of dead people, in some manner. I think it first starts (chronologically)\nwith the Concilliator and the Ceryx/Zama episode. But, of course, no matter what the demonic\ntypes do, it all serves the Increate's Plan in ways even they don't understand.\n \nWhat is AWB? I did a search and got possibilities ranging from Average White Band to Asian\nWetland Bureau and Accupuncturists Without Borders. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF0F8DF.3010408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-20T21:06:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/20/2011 3:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: I may have a problem with the use of \"bequeath,\" however. It was once\ncommon to give away all your possessions upon joining an order. Wouldn't she have done\nthis at that time, rather than when she left the Pelerines? The misericorde would then\nbe unexplained, since at that time it was not yet in her possession. But perhaps she\nwent back after to sell her habit and accoutrements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My timeline would be more like this: young Cyriaca is a Pelerine. She is expelled because\nshe gets pregnant with twins whom she raises in Nessus, supporting herself with a used\nclothing store. Some of her old Pelerine stuff (like the misericorde) is put up for sale.\nLater on she meets and marries a dashing armiger from Thrax and leaves the store to her\nteenaged kids and leaves them to fend for themselves. The one thing she does keep is her\nscarlet habit, which Severian finds her dressed in at the masquerade party (ridotto) in\nThrax." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thus echoing Catherine, which is a plus. OK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Inire wanted Valeria dead, she'd be dead, I would think. But the death of both Autarchs\nwould have been difficult to plan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah. It's hard to understand all the motivations. But my best guess would be that Inire\ngenerally set up Agia (like vodalus) to be an enemy of the Autarchy just as he (and the 17)\nsets up the Ascians to be an enemy against the Commonwealth. That is the eternal manipulation\n(like Palpatine in Star Wars, heh). Create two armies and pit them against each other\nand control everyone in the resulting mayhem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then he'd not want Agia to succeed, right? And her being dead in the \nsecret corridor complicates this further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, interesting. But was Agia not rather in control of Hethor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The eternal question, even with slave and master. Who is controlling whom? If Hethor is Inire\nwe can see the parallel of attraction to young women (paracoita also). But I think the powers\nwho orchestrate Severian's adventures know he cannot be killed, thus they are using Agia (and\nAgilus) over and over with the assassination attempts. In my view, they seek to have his power.\n(which jibes with the quote Daniel recently provided)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. Inire seems to be the parasite in the nest, then. But why would he \nwant Valeria dead at all?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T21:13:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow, wow, wow. I can't tell you all how pleased I am that my\npagan-gods-fulfilled-in-Christ comment didn't bring down a firestorm.\n Quite the reverse! It seems all who've commented agree Wolfe does this -\nGerry wants to then take it in a certain direction, with which the\nCatholics (and my lily white Protestant butt) disagree. And that's fine.\n\nI would hasten to clarify: though Wolfe takes this, to me, generous and\nwise approach that doesn't mean he's not up for some 'ass-kicking for\nJesus' sake' (as his fellow Catholic novelist Walker Percy said of his own\nfiction). That is, just as much as he weaves this fulfilment motif into\nhis fiction, he also weaves an expos? of the 'evils of religion' (as the\nlate Christopher Hitchens might have said) into his works as well. I.e. I\n*do* think he knows that people are often deluded, deceived, and imprisoned\nby their false religious beliefs, even if there is *some* important truth\nto aspects of their worldviews. (I don't think his Catholicism escapes\nthis critique either - if we distinguish between 'eternal truths' and more\ntransitory teachings and practices of the Church, of course, as others have\npointed out.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAh, a subtilty that passed me by, and you were of course quite correct.\n\n2011/12/20 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There was a time I know how to write, but it is long past.\nOne point though:\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (20-12-2011 17:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What's guaranteed is that the Church is _right_ in teaching what it\nteaches.\nThere's a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, there's a subtle difference. The Magisterium doesn't claim\nthat everything it teaches is right; it claims that, in matters of\nfaith and morals, it will not be _wrong_. There is a gap between\n\"right\" and \"not wrong\" which allows for mysteries greater than human\nwords can teach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course. But that's not the point I was making. I wasn't saying\neverything\nthe Magisterium teaches is right, but rather that the Magisterium was\nright\nin teaching it. This allows a whole lot more of leeway...\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF1071D.4020802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-20T22:07:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2011 4:13 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nWow, wow, wow. I can't tell you all how pleased I am that my \npagan-gods-fulfilled-in-Christ comment didn't bring down a firestorm. \n Quite the reverse! It seems all who've commented agree Wolfe does \nthis - Gerry wants to then take it in a certain direction, with which \nthe Catholics (and my lily white Protestant butt) disagree. And \nthat's fine.\n\nI would hasten to clarify: though Wolfe takes this, to me, generous \nand wise approach that doesn't mean he's not up for some 'ass-kicking \nfor Jesus' sake' (as his fellow Catholic novelist Walker Percy said of \nhis own fiction). That is, just as much as he weaves this fulfilment \nmotif into his fiction, he also weaves an expos? of the 'evils of \nreligion' (as the late Christopher Hitchens might have said) into his \nworks as well. I.e. I *do* think he knows that people are often \ndeluded, deceived, and imprisoned by their false religious beliefs, \neven if there is *some* important truth to aspects of their \nworldviews. (I don't think his Catholicism escapes this critique \neither - if we distinguish between 'eternal truths' and more \ntransitory teachings and practices of the Church, of course, as others \nhave pointed out.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hearty agreement on that last point---in fact I may be one of the \n\"others.\" Indeed, I hope I am." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-20T23:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF1071D.4020802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, David, you were one of the 'others' I was thinking of. -DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/20/2011 4:13 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wow, wow, wow. I can't tell you all how pleased I am that my\npagan-gods-fulfilled-in-Christ comment didn't bring down a firestorm.\n Quite the reverse! It seems all who've commented agree Wolfe does this -\nGerry wants to then take it in a certain direction, with which the\nCatholics (and my lily white Protestant butt) disagree. And that's fine.\n\nI would hasten to clarify: though Wolfe takes this, to me, generous and\nwise approach that doesn't mean he's not up for some 'ass-kicking for\nJesus' sake' (as his fellow Catholic novelist Walker Percy said of his own\nfiction). That is, just as much as he weaves this fulfilment motif into\nhis fiction, he also weaves an expos? of the 'evils of religion' (as the\nlate Christopher Hitchens might have said) into his works as well. I.e. I\n*do* think he knows that people are often deluded, deceived, and imprisoned\nby their false religious beliefs, even if there is *some* important truth\nto aspects of their worldviews. (I don't think his Catholicism escapes\nthis critique either - if we distinguish between 'eternal truths' and more\ntransitory teachings and practices of the Church, of course, as others have\npointed out.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hearty agreement on that last point---in fact I may be one of the\n\"others.\" Indeed, I hope I am.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1324427691.91725.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T00:34:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman ", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T02:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<1324427691.91725.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 21 de Dez de 2011, ?s 00:34, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman:\nWhat is AWB? I did a search and got possibilities ranging from Average White \nBand to Asian\nWetland Bureau and Accupuncturists Without Borders. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"AFB\" (away from books), presumably with the W from \"away\" replacing the F. Sorry" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought 'away without books'," } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T14:01:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Thus echoing Catherine, which is a plus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I don't know if Cyriaca is meant to be sister or clone to Catherine but\nI think there is a definite connection (as does Andre-Driussi) from the physical\nresemblance to the Pelerine connection to the strangulation death. There is even\na fresco in the catacombs of San Lorenzo associating both Ste. Katherine and Ste.\nCyrica with the Virgin Mary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Inire) create(s) two armies and pit them against each other and control everyone \nin the resulting mayhem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then he'd not want Agia to succeed, right? And her being dead in the \nsecret corridor complicates this further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm not so sure. Inire has Vodalus killed when he messes up, and replaces him with Agia.\nPerhaps the same thing happened to Agia when she overstepped her mandate. Inire has no\nproblem replacing both his Autarch and his \"Vodalus\" when it is time to do so.\n \nI say Vodalus \"messed up\" by his decision to deliver his prisoner Severian to the Ascians. \nIt is clear that Inire (jungle shaman?) and Agia and Hethor (Inire?) and the Green Man (Inire?) \nall wanted Severian to escape and become the Autarch. Vodalus had to go. The \"mercy\" of Agia?\nWhat sort of bunk is that? She spent 3 books trying to kill him and now she is willing to\nlet him go sit on a throne in a highly protected palace? Back to the question of who is \nreally in control, Agia or Inire. And with three possible Inire versions all at the site of \nSeverian's escape from the Ascians...Agia didn't stand a chance of imposing her own will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire seems to be the parasite in the nest, then. But why would he want Valeria dead at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't think he did (or as you said previously, she would be dead). We don't know how long ago \nit was when the assassin (Agia?) pursued the royal murder. Perhaps Agia got tired of waiting for\nSeverian to return from the stars and decided taking out Valeria would be sufficient revenge for\nAgilus. We are told various Autarchial mistresses winnowed the secret words to the Secret House.\nPerhaps only Inire had the secret words for the Throne Room, but who was Inire's mistress?\nSeverian thinks the masterful assassin accidentally pricked himself with the poisoned blade? That\ndoesn't sound quite right. Perhaps a certain manipulator put a stop to the assassination attempt\nusing one of his tricks to force that accidental pricking. Agia was getting old anyway. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF1F468.8040002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T14:59:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe \"mercy\" of Agia?\nWhat sort of bunk is that? She spent 3 books trying to kill him and now she is willing to\nlet him go sit on a throne in a highly protected palace?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bunk indeed! Unless Hethor (as Hethor) was able to stop her or to \nconvince her that life as Vodalus' successor would be pretty sweet, that \nplot twist is almost too much to swallow. At least 2 plot drivers are \noverturned: (1) Agia's apparent backstory as a sorcerer/assassin in \nleague with the dark forces arrayed against Severian (2) Agia's personal \nhatred of Severian.\n\nAnother complication is those evil forces' ambivalence about Severian. \nHethor himself seems conflicted about whether to worship Severian or \nkill him; like the undines, he wants an executioner, not a conciliator. \nYou'd think Agia and Hethor together would agree on killing Severian, \nbut it's possible to imagine them agreeing to provisionally accept an \nexecutioner-Autarch, especially one who gives them autonomy within the \nsphere Inire allows them. If Inire goes away, maybe that changes.\n\nI resist the idea of Hethor as Inire because of these difficulties, not \nin spite of them. If Hethor is Inire, not only are two vastly different \ncharacters merged, but the \"manipulation\" you ascribe to Inire \ndisappears: even a master manipulator can't manipulate himself. And the \ntension between Hethor and Agia (sex vs power) disappears as well.\n\nHowever, I have to admit that the persistent image I have of Inire as a \ndark figure repeated in an infinity of mirrors is compelling and suggestive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T15:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF1F468.8040002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Does he (Wright) ever get specific about any examples of manipulation, \nbeside the obvious ones (direct appearances of BF&O, the aquastors, and the Yesodim)? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think those are sufficient for him. There are certain weirdnesses in all those encounters. My\napproach to Wolfe is different than Wright so I don't study him too intensely. As an atheist,\nWright's secular interpretation makes the books work for him, but I don't think that's how a\nCatholic person like Wolfe sees his own work. And I am more interested in Wolfe's view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but can we even tell which (encounters) he's (Severian) maneuvered into and which ones \nhe isn't?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps not, and perhaps we are not meant to. I often think the solutions to BotNS mysteries \nare built assymptotically. Severian's meeting with Rudesind is openly revealed as contrived.\nThe Stone Town meeting with the Cumaean seems very contrived. I think the chance meeting with \nDorcas, her husband and Hildegrin in the same spot seems quite contrived. The meeting with \nCeryx seems rather contrived, Miles less contrived and so on. Each one less clearly contrived. \nPerhaps the least contrived resurrection encounter is Triskele? The healing in the jacal?\n \nLikewise for Severian's family. Though we are not directly told, Dorcas and Ouen are most clearly\nmeant to be his kin. Catherine a bit less clear. Others like Jolenta (or Merryn), Agia, cyriaca,\netc. are less and less clear.\n \nMight as well throw Father Inire in there. The cowled servitor seems his mostly likely appearance.\nThe jungle shaman a bit less so, Isangoma a bit less, etc. etc. I find a similar pattern in \nthe appearances of Catherine. (Katharine maid is primary, then Contessa Carina, crying woman on the\nPath of Air, woman in the coffin, etc.)\n \nThis assymptotic pattern is repeated often enough that I think it is intentional by Wolfe. He wants \nthere to be progressively more difficult solutions to figure out but he doesn't want there to be any \ncomplete and final answers to his mysteries. By this principle, Wolfe himself does not know where the \nline should be drawn between likely solutions and red herrings or reader invented speculation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how does it serve their plan? They're putting corpses in Severian's way, in various circumstances, \nand standing by to observe somehow, whether he knows it or not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't know and perhaps neither does Wolfe. It is pagan gods and the occult that we are dealing with \nand, by definition, we don't know how they work. There are many clues to this but I think the best one \nis Severian's encounter with the Old Leech. He is from Nessus and says he has travelled to the middle of \nthe jungle because hopes to learn things that one cannot learn anywhere else. Not even by eating the brain \nof any great scientist in history. We are not told what knowledge he seeks, but SURELY we are meant to \nfigure it out.\n \nWhat is it that can be found in that jungle that exists nowhere else on Urth? I say it is Severian. What\nmakes Severian unique among Urthlings? Healing and resurrection power. \n \nSeverian fears the Old Leech's methods of gaining knowledge involve the torture of children (shades of \nBaldanders). I find the Old Leech's pedophillic tendencies to be complementary to Father Inire's fascination \nwith young women (not to mention Dionysus/Pan ;- ).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF2039D.3050007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T16:04:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2011 10:35 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThis assymptotic pattern is repeated often enough that I think it is \nintentional by Wolfe. He wants there to be progressively more \ndifficult solutions to figure out but he doesn't want there to be any \ncomplete and final answers to his mysteries. By this principle, Wolfe \nhimself does not know where the line should be drawn between likely \nsolutions and red herrings or reader invented speculation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have often thought this but have not found a way to describe it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian fears the Old Leech's methods of gaining knowledge involve \nthe torture of children (shades of Baldanders). I find the Old Leech's \npedophillic tendencies to be complementary to Father Inire's \nfascination with young women (not to mention Dionysus/Pan ;- ). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could pedo/hebephilia not be a clue to a deeper evil rather than a sign \nof identity? That is, if again we consider the Cthulhu-worship model of \nhow humans may descend to absolute depravity (always more useful to me, \nfor some reason, than silly \"satanism\"), a willingness to manipulate \nothers---perhaps especially through sexual sadism or slavery---at least \npredisposes one to further corruption. And if there is \"real\" evil in \nSeverian's world, then it will find that willingness and bring it to \nfruition. Thus, Hethor's use of sorcery, Agia's use of every weapon \navailable, the Leech's (and possibly Baldander's) abuse of children in \nthe pursuit of further knowledge and power, and the undines' blind hope \nthat an executioner autarch will see things their way.\n\nBTW, making Inire the source of all these seems to defeat the point of \nevil---if evil had a point source it would be a disease, not a moral choice." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T16:36:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF2039D.3050007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I resist the idea of Hethor as Inire because of these difficulties, \nnot in spite of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI respect that opinion and will only comment further to explain my view, not to change\nyours (unless you are making a request for your resistance to be broken down, heh)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I have to admit that the persistent image I have of Inire as a \ndark figure repeated in an infinity of mirrors is compelling and suggestive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And, for me, more specifically, Hethor and Inire are the exclusive purveyors of\nmirrors and monsters (hence the \"teratoid\" symbols in Inire's chamber). The old Autarch\nuses a mirror book but I doubt the ex-honey steward created it. Moreover when he uses it,\nthe result is an angelic appearance, not a monstrous one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Hethor is Inire, not only are two vastly different characters merged, but the \"manipulation\" \nyou ascribe to Inire disappears: even a master manipulator can't manipulate himself. And the \ntension between Hethor and Agia (sex vs power) disappears as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI see the situation in reverse, I think because I am trying to take Gene Wolfe's point of view.\nAs a reader, it makes sense to look at Inire and Hethor (and others) as separate characters\nwhich someone is trying to merge. From an author/creator's point of view, it might be the\nopposite. \n \nI am proposing that what WOlfe has done is take one (very large) character and\nsplit it into various sub-characters. The synecdoche of this is Tzadkiel who appears in guises\nas varied as hairy blob, monkey, troglodyte, adonis-man, giant serious angel and little laughing \nfairy. Compared to that, are Inire and Hethor (and others) really so different?\n \nConsider also the mythological basis. As Daniel has recently alluded and has previously been\ndiscussed, there is a religious school of thought that considers Dionysus (or some ancient\ngod/being) to be in a continuous pattern of splitting up into portioned gods then reuniting\ninto a monotheistic God which explains his part in the origin of Christianity and the Trinity\netc. (of course we see this pattern in Long/Short Sun with Pas and others). Could divine\nsplitting be how Wolfe views Baptists and Mormons and Christian Scientists, etc.\n \nContinuing the thought, Dionysus had aspects of himself as diverse as drunken Silenus, serene \nSilvanus and lecherous Inuus. (Another aspect, Aegipan is associated with the body part\nreunification of Zeus and thus also associated with the Osiris story).\n \nAs has also been discussed in the past, Tzadkiel says he has been an acolyte of Severian's in a\nprevious iteration. This could mean he was hanging around the Conciliator in Typhon's time I guess\nbut that is such a dead end. I don't see evidence of him/her (excecpt maybe in Ceryx). If we take \nthat comment by Tzadkiel in conjunction with Hethor's assertion that he considers Severian to be his \n\"Master\" I think it makes a lot more sense. To me, Hethor seems truly sincere in his obeisance to \nSeverian.\n \nIf Hethor (and Inire, etc.) knows what Severian really is (much more than Severian himself knows), \ntrying to kill him over and over can be viewed in a different light. If Hethor knows Severian can't\nbe killed, then this series of tests of the \"Master\" can be seen as a series of lessons for Hethor. \nA view of a divine power which is beyond his own.\n \n(fwiw, the inferior Greek gods were incestuous and also tempted by the forbidden fruit of human sexuality \nas Jesus was not) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T16:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI am proposing that what WOlfe has done is take one (very large) character and\nsplit it into various sub-characters. The synecdoche of this is Tzadkiel who appears in guises\nas varied as hairy blob, monkey, troglodyte, adonis-man, giant serious angel and little laughing\nfairy. Compared to that, are Inire and Hethor (and others) really so different?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem here is that you're trying to solve a puzzle in tBotNS\nwith information that only became available in tUotNS. Wolfe is a\ndeeply puzzling writer, but he deploys his clues fairly, and when he\nwrote tBotNS he had no intention of writing tUotNS - it was not yet a\ngleam in David Hartwell's eye. Thus, there would be no way for a\nreader to make this analogy; the _Book_ proper has no such\ntransformations in it (that I recall).\n\nI don't buy it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T16:52:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff: Could pedo/hebephilia not be a clue to a deeper evil rather than a sign \nof identity? \n \nIn BotNS, I think it serves both purposes. Incest also. Remember how Dorcas considers\nherself to be an unclean spirit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if there is \"real\" evil in Severian's world, then it will find that willingness and bring \nit to fruition. Thus, Hethor's use of sorcery, Agia's use of every weapon available, the \nLeech's (and possibly Baldander's) abuse of children in the pursuit of further knowledge \nand power, and the undines' blind hope that an executioner autarch will see things their way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. I see Urth/Ushas as Wolfean allegory for earth's Flood. The idea being that evil exists, \nin some manner, independently of a human being. Earth (like Urth) was overwhelmed with evil\nto an extent that humanity could not resist it, because of fallen angel, demon-human mating\n(i.e. Nephilim). Evil had become intrinsic to our race. Only a genocidal Flood could remove it,\nsaving the one pure family left. In BotNS, the sailors on Tzadkiel's ship had been away from\nUrth long enought to not be (genetically) corrupted by the alien invaders and they were used\nto repopulate Ushas as Noah's family was used to repopulate earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, making Inire the source of all these seems to defeat the point of \nevil---if evil had a point source it would be a disease, not a moral choice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI think, to Wolfe, it is both. By analogy, is alcoholism a disease or a choice?\n \nAfter the Flood (on Ushas and earth) evil still exists, but sufficiently reduced that it can be \nresisted by humanity with \"good\" choices. Though perhaps some people, for whatever reason, can\nbe born or twisted into such an evil nature that good is no longer really a choice for them?\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T17:05:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: The problem here is that you're trying to solve a puzzle in tBotNS\nwith information that only became available in tUotNS. Wolfe is a deeply puzzling writer, \nbut he deploys his clues fairly, and when he wrote tBotNS he had no intention of writing \ntUotNS - it was not yet a gleam in David Hartwell's eye. Thus, there would be no way for a\nreader to make this analogy; the _Book_ proper has no such transformations in it (that I recall).\nI don't buy it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI respect your opinion Dan'l. As with David, I'll defend my position though not with the intent\nof changing yours.\n \nThe grand finale of UotNS gives us a Flood. Are you thinking Wolfe did not have this flood in mind \nwhen he was writing the first four books? There are some clues, very slim but present once you know \nto look for them. I take this as evidence that Wolfe overestimates the puzzle solving ability of his\nreaders (and he didn't even know the internet and \"group-mind\" venues such as this might arise).\n \nI find a lot more evidence for multi-character shape shifters in the first four books than I find\nevidence for a flood. The most obvious, of course is Foila's story. But we find it also in Melito's\nstory (it is an angel, of all creatures, which possesses shape-changing ability). Perhaps in the \nMother Pyrexia story and the Naviscaput story also (surely Abaia or Erebus wasn't born with a ship\nfor a head). Any reference at all to Greek gods carries an implication of shape (and size) changing\nand there are more than one of those in BotNS. \n \nThe multiple appearances of Father Inire didn't start with me. It was Borski. I don't share his \ninterpretation of those appearances but I'm not the only person who grudgingly admits that there\nare some suspiciously similar characters to Inire darting in and out of the story.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF216A8.3070508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T17:26:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2011 11:36 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI am proposing that what WOlfe has done is take one (very large) character and\nsplit it into various sub-characters. The synecdoche of this is Tzadkiel who appears in guises\nas varied as hairy blob, monkey, troglodyte, adonis-man, giant serious angel and little laughing\nfairy. Compared to that, are Inire and Hethor (and others) really so different?\n\nConsider also the mythological basis. As Daniel has recently alluded and has previously been\ndiscussed, there is a religious school of thought that considers Dionysus (or some ancient\ngod/being) to be in a continuous pattern of splitting up into portioned gods then reuniting\ninto a monotheistic God which explains his part in the origin of Christianity and the Trinity\netc. (of course we see this pattern in Long/Short Sun with Pas and others). Could divine\nsplitting be how Wolfe views Baptists and Mormons and Christian Scientists, etc.\n\nContinuing the thought, Dionysus had aspects of himself as diverse as drunken Silenus, serene\nSilvanus and lecherous Inuus. (Another aspect, Aegipan is associated with the body part\nreunification of Zeus and thus also associated with the Osiris story).\n\nAs has also been discussed in the past, Tzadkiel says he has been an acolyte of Severian's in a\nprevious iteration. This could mean he was hanging around the Conciliator in Typhon's time I guess\nbut that is such a dead end. I don't see evidence of him/her (excecpt maybe in Ceryx). If we take\nthat comment by Tzadkiel in conjunction with Hethor's assertion that he considers Severian to be his\n\"Master\" I think it makes a lot more sense. To me, Hethor seems truly sincere in his obeisance to\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Truly, the theory is too strong for me. It explains so much that it's a \nslippery slope with no return. Once one accepts further (asymptotic, in \nyour phrase) Inire identities on the principle of \"always more and \nsmaller Inires,\" how and where do you stop? I don't ask this to mock, \nbecause I'm more interested in exploring the real practical and thematic \nconsequences of pan-Inireism than my own prejudices." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Hethor (and Inire, etc.) knows what Severian really is (much more than Severian himself knows),\ntrying to kill him over and over can be viewed in a different light. If Hethor knows Severian can't\nbe killed, then this series of tests of the \"Master\" can be seen as a series of lessons for Hethor.\nA view of a divine power which is beyond his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this your answer to Jerry's question---that the manipulation is \nintended to kill Severian over and over? if so, what counts/would have \ncounted as success? Severian always comes back but (presumably) stops \nbeing killed. There is an endpoint; if the purpose was to kill him as \nrepeatedly as winter kills spring, then the plan failed.\n\nOne can imagine a series of episodes in which a hero---perhaps one with \nall the weight of an ancient prophecy behind him---repeatedly faces \ndecisions to risk his life or not. Both angels and devils are watching, \nwith the angels perhaps hoping he sacrifices himself and the devils the \nreverse. The Yesodii's test of autarchs is the very model of this.\n\nIf this model applies overall here, then Severian, by dying over and \nover, passes the big test for the angels and fails it for the devils. Of \ncourse he fails to die at many points too. There are many possible \nvariations: the hero decides to stay home, he passes some tests and \nfails others, or the positions of the angels/devils are reversed so that \nthe angels want him to stay home because the violence of his heroic acts \ndoes more harm than good. It seems counterintuitive because you'd expect \nthat a hero would need to live to succeed---but we know better.\n\nHow might Inire or Hethor derive personal benefit from whatever they \nfind Severian to be, if their desire is immortality?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF216FD.3030601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T17:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2011 11:43 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am proposing that what WOlfe has done is take one (very large) character and\nsplit it into various sub-characters. The synecdoche of this is Tzadkiel who appears in guises\nas varied as hairy blob, monkey, troglodyte, adonis-man, giant serious angel and little laughing\nfairy. Compared to that, are Inire and Hethor (and others) really so different?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem here is that you're trying to solve a puzzle in tBotNS\nwith information that only became available in tUotNS. Wolfe is a\ndeeply puzzling writer, but he deploys his clues fairly, and when he\nwrote tBotNS he had no intention of writing tUotNS - it was not yet a\ngleam in David Hartwell's eye. Thus, there would be no way for a\nreader to make this analogy; the _Book_ proper has no such\ntransformations in it (that I recall).\n\nI don't buy it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aside from Ultan's musings, I agree. Inire's multiplications must be \ncontained!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF21AF5.4080105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T17:44:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2011 11:52 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Could pedo/hebephilia not be a clue to a deeper evil rather than a sign\nof identity?\n\nIn BotNS, I think it serves both purposes. Incest also. Remember how Dorcas considers\nherself to be an unclean spirit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but she doesn't try to enslave Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "if there is \"real\" evil in Severian's world, then it will find that willingness and bring\nit to fruition. Thus, Hethor's use of sorcery, Agia's use of every weapon available, the\nLeech's (and possibly Baldander's) abuse of children in the pursuit of further knowledge\nand power, and the undines' blind hope that an executioner autarch will see things their way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I see Urth/Ushas as Wolfean allegory for earth's Flood. The idea being that evil exists,\nin some manner, independently of a human being. Earth (like Urth) was overwhelmed with evil\nto an extent that humanity could not resist it, because of fallen angel, demon-human mating\n(i.e. Nephilim). Evil had become intrinsic to our race. Only a genocidal Flood could remove it,\nsaving the one pure family left. In BotNS, the sailors on Tzadkiel's ship had been away from\nUrth long enought to not be (genetically) corrupted by the alien invaders and they were used\nto repopulate Ushas as Noah's family was used to repopulate earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. The narrator does refer to many alien corruptions without \nexcluding humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BTW, making Inire the source of all these seems to defeat the point of\nevil---if evil had a point source it would be a disease, not a moral choice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think, to Wolfe, it is both. By analogy, is alcoholism a disease or a choice?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can't be both---they are utterly and diametrically opposed \nconceptions of evil---but they can work in combination. I proposed a \n\"predisposition\" to evil, which all humans have to some degree but which \nallows choice and action. There can be no point in writing fiction about \nthe total lack of moral choices, even within a structure (cultural, \npolitical, paranoid-narrative) that forces those choices. Free will is \nvery much a problem in BNS, even given that the protagonist gets to make \nhis choices more than once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After the Flood (on Ushas and earth) evil still exists, but sufficiently reduced that it can be\nresisted by humanity with \"good\" choices. Though perhaps some people, for whatever reason, can\nbe born or twisted into such an evil nature that good is no longer really a choice for them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's theory of incremental moral progress from iteration to \niteration does seem to suggest this, or at least the reverse of it. And \nI have to admit that Wolfe's structures (throughout the Sun Cycle) do \nsuggest an affinity between morals and genetics, though I have assumed \nthat this is metaphoric, not real. Your theory seems to move fluidly \nbetween \"evil\" and \"corruption\" in a way that I find creepy but by the \nsame token impossible to refute. Fiction is always about the worst \npossible things one can imagine." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T19:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF21AF5.4080105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Truly, the theory is too strong for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI understand that. I think Jeff Wilson once said something similar,\nlike \"it's too big and all-encompassing\". It is quite a horse pill\nto swallow when a piece of literature you love is expansively explained \nby someone else's thoughts, not your own. But, since they are my own (mostly) \nit works for me. It feels like doing a jigsaw puzzle. How can I stop with a \nfew pieces in the middle when I see a larger, holistic picture forming?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once one accepts further (asymptotic, in your phrase) Inire identities on the \nprinciple of \"always more and smaller Inires,\" how and where do you stop?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood question! Theoretically, an asymtote never stops. But in practical terms\nit stops where you run out of paper and can no longer see it. Same for me. It\ngets fuzzy with Borski's assertion that Inire is Ossipago and Palaemon. I have\nsome trouble seeing that. And beyond that I see nothing..no Inire in Guasacht or\nDeclan or Pega, for example.\n \nBut if we are considering that Wolfe sees The Deity as a God who has unified and\nbroken apart in cyclical form throughout history, I'm not sure we are supposed to\nsee an end. I would like to get a peek at Ushas 1000 years after the Flood and \nlearn what Severian's role is at that time (ancient myth or living god)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this your answer to Jerry's question---that the manipulation is intended to kill \nSeverian over and over? if so, what counts/would have counted as success?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, it is my answer but argh! What seems so clear to me is confusing to others. I\nam suggesting that Severian has a power from the Increate which is beyond anything\nthat any other character, including Tzadkiel, can possess. Naturally superhuman \nalien beings on Urth are aware of this power and are jealous of it. (contrast with\nB and F who kneel to Severian. \n \nThe urth-bound aliens would like to have what Severian has. So, when he is too young \nto understand his own power, they test Severian tempting him in various ways and trying \nto kill him in various ways and presenting him with injured friends and strangers to heal.\n \nThey know he won't die from the avern or anything else (though obviously the dupes\nAgia and Agilus don't know that). They just want to see how he will manage to recover \nhimself (hence the baboon guy who looks in on Severian as he convalesces). They wonder \nif he will unknowingly resurrect his own grandmother from a lake full of thousands of \ndead bodies. What would happen if he were duped into resurrecting his own former self\n(Apu PUnchau)? It all started in the past with Ceryx and Zama, imho. When the \nConciliator disappeared they (not being pawns in time perception) knew he'd be back \none day, and they were ready and waiting for severian with these tests.\n \nAnd, yes, of course they failed. They had to. It was written. It would be as if Dionysus\nbecame aware of this new guy, Jesus coming up and decided to tempt him in the desert\nand make an ally of him or replace him or something like that.\n \nAnd yes, the pagan gods are associated with evil. Not because of simple human morality.\nHumans openly embrace evil as a moral positive during many periods of history. Evil is \ndefined as separation from God. Isn't that separation what turned light-bearing Lucifer \ninto evil Satan?\n \nDo we know for sure that Dionysus and his Greek precursors and gnostic successors (like\nAbraxas, Azazel etc.) were not, in some sense evil and satanic? Surely no matter what he \ndid, Dionysus/Great God Pan/Green Man, etc. could never be as close to God as Jesus, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How might Inire or Hethor derive personal benefit from whatever they find Severian to be, \nif their desire is immortality?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThey are immortal. But they are Urth-bound and separated from the Increate. Humanity may fear\nthem and become enthralled by them but they aren't worshipped as true Gods (like Jahweh). \nThey know Severian is connected to something higher which they cannot achieve since their\nfall from Grace.\n \nArgh. I'm trying but I guess I am not doing a good job of explaining what seems clear to me.\nTime for a new post, perhaps.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T19:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember how Dorcas considers herself to be an unclean spirit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but she doesn't try to enslave Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is enslaving Urth a definition of evil? Isn't flooding the place and\nkilling everybody a much worse evil? By human morality maybe. \n \nBut Gene Wolfe has read the Bible and has had to figure out why Noah's\nFlood, which provided such a painful, unpleasant death to so many \npeople (and innocent animals) was necessary. The Christian definition\nof evil is separation from God, yes? God had to wipe out earth (and\nGene Wolfe had to wipe out Urth) because it was irretrievably separated\nfrom God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "if evil had a point source it would be a disease, not a moral choice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think, to Wolfe, it is both. By analogy, is alcoholism a disease or a choice?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It can't be both---they are utterly and diametrically opposed conceptions of evil--\n-but they can work in combination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. The view of \"evil is a choice\" is a humanistic view. We need to think \nthat to inspire us to make good choices. But God (in the true Christian sense)\ncannot have any choices. Anything He does is the ultimate in good. No selection\nA or selection B for Him.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe recognizes this (as do a few other inspired SF writers) and\nattempts the impossible task of helping us see the universe from God's point of\nview. Our \"good\" and \"evil\" choices are all made within a rigid, God-created \nframework. And sometimes, despite a lifetime of \"good\" choices a person will\nsuffer pain and death through the evil actions of others. Happens every day.\n \nWhy does God let that happen? Surely the only answer (as for the creation of\nUshas) is that He often sacrifices innocents in the cause of some greater\ngood which only He can understand. (as you might know, I, myself, am not religious)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your theory seems to move fluidly between \"evil\" and \"corruption\" in a way that I find \ncreepy but by the same token impossible to refute. Fiction is always about the worst \npossible things one can imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\"EVIL IS ALWAYS A DISTORTION OR AN EXAGGERATION OF SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD.\"\n \nGene Wolfe, Dec 9, 1996: James Jordan interview.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF233CE.1000608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T19:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/21/2011 2:00 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIs this your answer to Jerry's question---that the manipulation is intended to kill\nSeverian over and over? if so, what counts/would have counted as success?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, it is my answer but argh! What seems so clear to me is confusing to others. I\nam suggesting that Severian has a power from the Increate which is beyond anything\nthat any other character, including Tzadkiel, can possess. Naturally superhuman\nalien beings on Urth are aware of this power and are jealous of it. (contrast with\nB and F who kneel to Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian does have such a power. I find it hard to describe, but \nhere's how I see it. Imagine beings native to cyberspace who possess \nvast powers there, such as avatars in an RPG might. A visitor from the \nmeatworld might look on such powers with awe, but the meatperson can do \nthings in the meatworld no one can do from cyberspace. Tzadkiel has \ngreat powers but, just as angels can't triumph over the nonexistent evil \nin themselves but mortals can, Severian's are of a different order---he \nperforms miracles in meatspace. Logically, meatpersons are jealous \n(inevitably misunderstanding these powers as mere \"upgrades\") but \ncyberpersons are not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The urth-bound aliens would like to have what Severian has. So, when he is too young\nto understand his own power, they test Severian tempting him in various ways and trying\nto kill him in various ways and presenting him with injured friends and strangers to heal.\n\nThey know he won't die from the avern or anything else (though obviously the dupes\nAgia and Agilus don't know that). They just want to see how he will manage to recover\nhimself (hence the baboon guy who looks in on Severian as he convalesces). They wonder\nif he will unknowingly resurrect his own grandmother from a lake full of thousands of\ndead bodies. What would happen if he were duped into resurrecting his own former self\n(Apu PUnchau)? It all started in the past with Ceryx and Zama, imho. When the\nConciliator disappeared they (not being pawns in time perception) knew he'd be back\none day, and they were ready and waiting for severian with these tests.\n\nAnd, yes, of course they failed. They had to. It was written. It would be as if Dionysus\nbecame aware of this new guy, Jesus coming up and decided to tempt him in the desert\nand make an ally of him or replace him or something like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As did Satan and Typhon, yes. But it's hard to see death as a form of \ntemptation. Do they seek to discover weakness they can turn to their \nadvantage?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yes, the pagan gods are associated with evil. Not because of simple human morality.\nHumans openly embrace evil as a moral positive during many periods of history. Evil is\ndefined as separation from God. Isn't that separation what turned light-bearing Lucifer\ninto evil Satan?\n\nDo we know for sure that Dionysus and his Greek precursors and gnostic successors (like\nAbraxas, Azazel etc.) were not, in some sense evil and satanic? Surely no matter what he\ndid, Dionysus/Great God Pan/Green Man, etc. could never be as close to God as Jesus, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How might Inire or Hethor derive personal benefit from whatever they find Severian to be,\nif their desire is immortality?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are immortal. But they are Urth-bound and separated from the Increate. Humanity may fear\nthem and become enthralled by them but they aren't worshipped as true Gods (like Jahweh).\nThey know Severian is connected to something higher which they cannot achieve since their\nfall from Grace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Understood. What I'm missing is a definition of success for the Plan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF236A3.20507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T19:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/21/2011 2:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRemember how Dorcas considers herself to be an unclean spirit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but she doesn't try to enslave Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is enslaving Urth a definition of evil? Isn't flooding the place and\nkilling everybody a much worse evil? By human morality maybe.\n\nBut Gene Wolfe has read the Bible and has had to figure out why Noah's\nFlood, which provided such a painful, unpleasant death to so many\npeople (and innocent animals) was necessary. The Christian definition\nof evil is separation from God, yes? God had to wipe out earth (and\nGene Wolfe had to wipe out Urth) because it was irretrievably separated\nfrom God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but Dorcas didn't do that either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "if evil had a point source it would be a disease, not a moral choice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think, to Wolfe, it is both. By analogy, is alcoholism a disease or a choice?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It can't be both---they are utterly and diametrically opposed conceptions of evil--\n-but they can work in combination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. The view of \"evil is a choice\" is a humanistic view. We need to think\nthat to inspire us to make good choices. But God (in the true Christian sense)\ncannot have any choices. Anything He does is the ultimate in good. No selection\nA or selection B for Him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. I'm not saying evil is a pure choice or even that moral \nchoices exist outside theory or fiction. But how does God's moral \ncontext relate to human choices or lack of them? or do you mean all \nhumans have the \"evil\" gene, period? if that's so, why do some \ncharacters abuse children and others do not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Gene Wolfe recognizes this (as do a few other inspired SF writers) and\nattempts the impossible task of helping us see the universe from God's point of\nview. Our \"good\" and \"evil\" choices are all made within a rigid, God-created\nframework. And sometimes, despite a lifetime of \"good\" choices a person will\nsuffer pain and death through the evil actions of others. Happens every day.\n\nWhy does God let that happen? Surely the only answer (as for the creation of\nUshas) is that He often sacrifices innocents in the cause of some greater\ngood which only He can understand. (as you might know, I, myself, am not religious)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, sure---but this is no different from suggesting that we make \nmoral choices about alcohol within a genetic framework. (It occurs to me \nthat I don't know of any fiction that tries to set up such a framework; \nusually it's a cultural/socioeconomic one. But all fiction puts such \nchoices in some kind of context, since there are limits even to the good \nwe can do.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your theory seems to move fluidly between \"evil\" and \"corruption\" in a way that I find\ncreepy but by the same token impossible to refute. Fiction is always about the worst\npossible things one can imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"EVIL IS ALWAYS A DISTORTION OR AN EXAGGERATION OF SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD.\"\n\nGene Wolfe, Dec 9, 1996: James Jordan interview." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder what Wolfe would consider \"good\" in the area of genetics." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T19:44:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nBut Gene Wolfe has read the Bible and has had to figure out why Noah's\nFlood, which provided such a painful, unpleasant death to so many\npeople (and innocent animals) was necessary. The Christian definition\nof evil is separation from God, yes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. The definition of evil is rejection of God or deliberate\ndisobedience of His will. This _causes_ separation from God, which is\nthe definition of damnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. The view of \"evil is a choice\" is a humanistic view. We need to think\nthat to inspire us to make good choices. But God (in the true Christian sense)\ncannot have any choices. Anything He does is the ultimate in good. No selection\nA or selection B for Him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet the Catholic church teaches that God is completely free --\nfree, for example, to create or not to create. The Creation was not\nnecessary for God to be God." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T20:18:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be as if Dionysus became aware of this new guy, Jesus coming up \nand decided to tempt him in the desert and make an ally of him or replace him \nor something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: As did Satan and Typhon, yes. But it's hard to see death as a form of \ntemptation. Do they seek to discover weakness they can turn to their advantage?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps. If they managed to kill off Severian and prevent the New Sun from coming, I'm\nsure they wouldn't lament. But I think they know he can't die. There will always be \nreality shift or time shift or eidolon-making or something from above (yep, deus ex\nmachina) which will resurrect Severian. Perhaps sometimes, as with Juturna, they hope to \ngarner favor or loyalty by performing a (unneeded) rescue.\n \nTrying to kill him isn't a form of temptation. I'd guess Agia (lust) or Dorcas (love)\nor Typhon (power) are the temptations. But I think the baboon guy was checking \nSeverian's always-fatal avern wound to try to figure out how the heck he did that.\nSame with the Old Leech's presence. And perhaps Ceryx with his challenges to \nSeverian. They want to learn what they can about his divine power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Understood. What I'm missing is a definition of success for the Plan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy first thought on reading that was..\"Plan? What Plan? Plan of Pas maybe?\" But perhaps\nthat is not really so far off the mark, eh?\n \nI would think the Plan of Inire is similar to the Plan of Pas- maintain the little world\nwhich has been created for the purpose of entertaining the demiurge, pitting humans \nagainst each other in wars and tangled love affairs. Pas had a smaller stage to work with\nthan Inire but both were after stasis and stifled growth and against evolution. They liked the \nnasty little world they had created and didn't want it washed away. Naturally this is\nallegory to our earth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-12-21T20:35:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would think the Plan of Inire is similar to the Plan of Pas- maintain the little world\nwhich has been created for the purpose of entertaining the demiurge, pitting humans \nagainst each other in wars and tangled love affairs. Pas had a smaller stage to work with\nthan Inire but both were after stasis and stifled growth and against evolution. They liked the \nnasty little world they had created and didn't want it washed away. Naturally this is\nallegory to our earth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, The Plan of Pas was to disembark. ?Those who descend serve Pas best. It was Echidna and her allies who wanted stasis; that’s why Pas was killed.\n\nPas may have started off as a tyrant, but he seems to have been a good god to the universe he created (the ultimate case of a character growing into his role?). Perhaps the chaos created by the disembarkation and the need to force it on the unwilling Cargo mirrors the necessary devastation of Urth arising from the coming of the New Sun.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF245AC.3090706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-21T20:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/21/2011 3:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIt would be as if Dionysus became aware of this new guy, Jesus coming up\nand decided to tempt him in the desert and make an ally of him or replace him\nor something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: As did Satan and Typhon, yes. But it's hard to see death as a form of\ntemptation. Do they seek to discover weakness they can turn to their advantage?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps. If they managed to kill off Severian and prevent the New Sun from coming, I'm\nsure they wouldn't lament. But I think they know he can't die. There will always be\nreality shift or time shift or eidolon-making or something from above (yep, deus ex\nmachina) which will resurrect Severian. Perhaps sometimes, as with Juturna, they hope to\ngarner favor or loyalty by performing a (unneeded) rescue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They SHOULD know, which makes their attempts to kill him inexplicable. \nThe undines, OTOH, DID rescue him. And Hethor's worms failed to kill him \nat all. When he was rescued from the Autarch's flyer, what was gained? \nHow do we tell a positive from a false positive?\n\nI like your arrangement of temptations, and I'm sympathetic to a Plan \nthat deploys them on a Hero. But then what about strangling \nCyriaca---which temptation was that? \"Following wrong orders\" is not one \nof the seven deadly sins, is it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Trying to kill him isn't a form of temptation. I'd guess Agia (lust) or Dorcas (love)\nor Typhon (power) are the temptations. But I think the baboon guy was checking\nSeverian's always-fatal avern wound to try to figure out how the heck he did that.\nSame with the Old Leech's presence. And perhaps Ceryx with his challenges to\nSeverian. They want to learn what they can about his divine power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Understood. What I'm missing is a definition of success for the Plan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My first thought on reading that was..\"Plan? What Plan? Plan of Pas maybe?\" But perhaps\nthat is not really so far off the mark, eh?\n\nI would think the Plan of Inire is similar to the Plan of Pas- maintain the little world\nwhich has been created for the purpose of entertaining the demiurge, pitting humans\nagainst each other in wars and tangled love affairs. Pas had a smaller stage to work with\nthan Inire but both were after stasis and stifled growth and against evolution. They liked the\nnasty little world they had created and didn't want it washed away. Naturally this is\nallegory to our earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So success is stasis and no New Sun? but that means stopping Severian, \nwhich may mean killing him, distracting him, or perhaps just wearing him \nout. Yet the path he is one seems so over-buffered---he's not driven by \nany heroic goal and fails to do much more than survive, if that, and \nsucceeds no matter what---it's hard to see what could stop him or turn \nhim away. He falls toward \"success\"; he has almost no real choices; he \nmerely behaves as well as he can.\n\nThis is what keeps me from seeing how Inire's goals could be much \ndifferent from FBO's. I'd think a rebel Inire would have counseled \nagainst going to Yesod, but there is no mention of that. Nor does he \nseem to try to bend Severian to his own ends in any apparent way. He \njust keeps the machinery going behind the green curtain." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-22T13:56:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia's Weapons", "in_reply_to": "<4EF245AC.3090706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Christian definition of evil is separation from God, yes? God had to wipe out \nearth (and Gene Wolfe had to wipe out Urth) because it was irretrievably separated \nfrom God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: No. The definition of evil is rejection of God or deliberate\ndisobedience of His will. This _causes_ separation from God, which is the definition \nof damnation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. I agree that fallen angels chose to reject God. And I can cautiously agree\nthat human women knowingly engaged in intercourse with these demons, though I'm not sure\nit is fair to expect them to resist superhuman seduction. But what about the offspring of \nthose unholy matings? The Nephilim and whatever other wicked beings were produced. Surely\nthey rejected God in their choices, but what choice did they really have? They were demonic \nby nature. God wiped out the whole lot of them, saving only Noah and his family. Why was \nthis necessary (if God has freedom, as you claim)? Why didn't God soften their demonic \nhearts? Get them all to Sunday school and teach them goodness? Why did He choose the genocide?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Sure, but Dorcas didn't do that (flood the Urth) either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, I think the conversation is spiralling out of control. It started with the suggestion\nthat Gene Wolfe might use pedophilia and incest as markers of evil. Among Greek gods (and Greeks)\nsuch things were considered normal, not evil and this is one of the reasons I can see equating\nGreek gods with fallen angels/demons, from a Judeo-Christian point of view. \n \nNot coincidentally, sexual prudery was a cultural divider between early Judeo-Christians and their \nmore lascivious neighbors and forebears. The sexual freedom divide remains today among the devout, \nmultiplied by the addition of a younger cousin, Islam. (of course we are still Judeo-Christian\nenough to reject incest and pedophilia. But fornication and homosexuality are becoming more and\nmore accepted among the non-devout).\n \nI am suggesting Dorcas feels like an unclean spirit because she is engaged in a sexual\nrelationship with her grandson. She doesn't know it. She didn't choose to do it. Yet she senses\nthe evil in it anyway. (Severian mistakenly thinks she is repulsed because of his occupation, but \nwe know that isn't it). The source of her spiritual unhappiness is only revealed to a first-time\nreader at the very end of the story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }