{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6154", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6154, "subject": "The Claw", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-12-22T03:06:42+00:00", "last": "2012-01-02T18:41:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-22T03:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alright so due to the discussion currently going on concerning the\nfantastical/magical elements in the BotNS I figured I should post\nthis. Ive had a theory about the Claw for a long time now and Im not\nsure if this has ever been proposed before but I feel its relevant.\nSome people view the Claw as miraculous and that falls squarely in\nsupernatural/magical territory (at least IMHO) but maybe its\nmysterious workings can be explained in a scientific (or science\nfictional) manner. Ive always thought that the Claw can do what it\ndoes through the warping of space-time around it because it is a\ntemporal anomaly itself. We know that the Claw as a thorn was\nannointed for lack of a better word with Severians blood at the end of\nCitadel. After traveling back to the Conciliators era it becomes the\nClaw. When Severian obtains the relic it still has his blood on it.\nNow this same blood is still inside Severian as he hasnt been pricked\nyet. Now we know that two Severians cannot exist in the same point in\ntime and space (ala Apu Punchau-why there was no implosion when they\ncome into contact could just be that its not a whole other Severian\njust a drop of his blood ) so I believe that this creates some kind of\nanomalous effect around Severian. This causes the Claw to warp time\nback to the time when Dorcas was alive resurrecting her." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-22T14:21:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: Ive always thought that the Claw can do what it\ndoes through the warping of space-time around it because it is a\ntemporal anomaly itself......Now we know that two Severians cannot exist \nin the same point in time and space (ala Apu Punchau-why there was no \nimplosion when they come into contact......so I believe that this creates \nsome kind of anomalous effect around Severian. This causes the Claw to warp \ntime back to the time when Dorcas was alive resurrecting her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDorcas does suggest the Claw works by warping time. So, maybe because Severian's \nlife is stretched from primitive times to the far future, his energy source is sort \nof like a temporal rubber band always ready to snap? It would explain why \nSeverian feels so drained after using his power.\n \nI think the prevailing view is that his energy source is from another universe,\nthe one higher than his own. There is an Asimov story (The Gods Themselves) from\nabout the same time period which uses the same principle, though in that case \n(despite the book title) there is no spiritual aspect to the higher universe as\nthere seems to be in BotNS. The higher universe is explained entirely in terms of \nphysical laws- stronger nuclear force, weaker gravity, etc.\n \nSo, a leak (the White Fountain) from a higher universe to a lower one would \nallow an eternal, never diminishing energy source. Does that mean Urth's sun\nhas become immortal? (I think Severian is immortal, so, perhaps).\n \nAnyway, unlike Asimov, Wolfe ties travel to the higher universe to time travel\nin some sense. So perhaps your theory can be worked into the prevailing view in\nsome manner?\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1324581660.64988.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-22T19:21:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Larry Miller decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ive always thought that the Claw can do what it\ndoes through the warping of space-time around it because it is a\ntemporal anomaly itself. We know that the Claw as a thorn was\nannointed for lack of a better word with Severians blood at the end of\nCitadel. After traveling back to the Conciliators era it becomes the\nClaw. When Severian obtains the relic it still has his blood on it.\nNow this same blood is still inside Severian as he hasnt been pricked\nyet. Now we know that two Severians cannot exist in the same point in\ntime and space (ala Apu Punchau-why there was no implosion when they\ncome into contact could just be that its not a whole other Severian\njust a drop of his blood ) so I believe that this creates some kind of\nanomalous effect around Severian. This causes the Claw to warp time\nback to the time when Dorcas was alive resurrecting her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do like this. And there's no problem reconciling it with the idea that Severian gets his energy from Yesod--the temporal anomaly could make that possible.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EF40A9B.30900@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-12-23T04:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<1324581660.64988.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/22/2011 1:21 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Larry Miller decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ive always thought that the Claw can do what it\ndoes through the warping of space-time around it because it is a\ntemporal anomaly itself. We know that the Claw as a thorn was\nannointed for lack of a better word with Severians blood at the end of\nCitadel. After traveling back to the Conciliators era it becomes the\nClaw. When Severian obtains the relic it still has his blood on it.\nNow this same blood is still inside Severian as he hasnt been pricked\nyet. Now we know that two Severians cannot exist in the same point in\ntime and space (ala Apu Punchau-why there was no implosion when they\ncome into contact could just be that its not a whole other Severian\njust a drop of his blood ) so I believe that this creates some kind of\nanomalous effect around Severian. This causes the Claw to warp time\nback to the time when Dorcas was alive resurrecting her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do like this. And there's no problem reconciling it with the idea that Severian gets his energy from Yesod--the temporal anomaly could make that possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that it only seems to work when the White Fountain is above the \nhorizion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20111223142204.24619.qmail@server281.com>", "from": { "name": "Brian", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2011-12-23T14:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4EF40A9B.30900@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't there some sighting of the white fountain during the Apu-Punchau\nscene? If Severian's blood in both his body and the claw creates a\ntemporal anomaly that allows his powers, then perhaps the massive anomaly\ncreated when he and Apu-Punchau touch is somehow part of the\nwhole...uh...\"white fountain process\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-23T14:46:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<20111223142204.24619.qmail@server281.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Except that it only seems to work when the White Fountain is above the \nhorizion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brian: Isn't there some sighting of the white fountain during the Apu-Punchau\nscene? If Severian's blood in both his body and the claw creates a\ntemporal anomaly that allows his powers, then perhaps the massive anomaly\ncreated when he and Apu-Punchau touch is somehow part of the\nwhole...uh...\"white fountain process\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, Severian does see the White Fountain as he breaks out of Apu Punchau's tomb.\nPrevious to that, Barbatus twice suggests to Severian that he will have access to\nthe White Fountain power only when its light first reaches Urth. I assume that to\nmean the whole Urth, else his power would only work during a certain time of day.\nThe White Fountain/Claw's power is never fully reliable but I don't get the sense \nthe problem is related to Urth's turning. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EFE66E5.7050204@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-12-31T01:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 23/12/11 14:46, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Except that it only seems to work when the White Fountain is above the\nhorizion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brian: Isn't there some sighting of the white fountain during the Apu-Punchau\nscene? If Severian's blood in both his body and the claw creates a\ntemporal anomaly that allows his powers, then perhaps the massive anomaly\ncreated when he and Apu-Punchau touch is somehow part of the\nwhole...uh...\"white fountain process\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Severian does see the White Fountain as he breaks out of Apu Punchau's tomb.\nPrevious to that, Barbatus twice suggests to Severian that he will have access to\nthe White Fountain power only when its light first reaches Urth. I assume that to\nmean the whole Urth, else his power would only work during a certain time of day.\nThe White Fountain/Claw's power is never fully reliable but I don't get the sense\nthe problem is related to Urth's turning. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally I've never been convinced by the 'powers only available after \nthe White Fountain light reaches Urth / is above the horizon' theory \n(even though this is clearly posited in the text and appears for sure to \nbe what [Wolfe tells us that] Severian believes) just because Sev / Apu \nPunchau performs miracles of healing (and resurrection? I forget. I \ndon't have UOTNS in front of me now) from the time he arrives in the \nprimitive village; it's part of why the villagers come to follow him in \nthe first place.\n\nAdmitted that the most up-front 'miracle' of all, the failure of the \nsunrise, is caused by the Yesodis not by Severian; but Sev does \nelsewhere state explicitly that he performed healings and other works \nearly in his stay in that era, and indeed I seem to remember he is \nactually puzzled by his ability to do this in the pre-White-Fountain era!\n\nPerhaps the 'miraculous' powers are more part of Severian himself than \neven Severian realises.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F006594.40209@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-01T13:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4EFE66E5.7050204@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/30/2011 7:35 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 23/12/11 14:46, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Except that it only seems to work when the White\nFountain is above the\nhorizion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Brian: Isn't there some sighting of the white fountain during the\nApu-Punchau\nscene? If Severian's blood in both his body and the claw creates a\ntemporal anomaly that allows his powers, then perhaps the massive\nanomaly\ncreated when he and Apu-Punchau touch is somehow part of the\nwhole...uh...\"white fountain process\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Severian does see the White Fountain as he breaks out of Apu\nPunchau's tomb.\nPrevious to that, Barbatus twice suggests to Severian that he will\nhave access to\nthe White Fountain power only when its light first reaches Urth. I\nassume that to\nmean the whole Urth, else his power would only work during a certain\ntime of day.\nThe White Fountain/Claw's power is never fully reliable but I don't\nget the sense\nthe problem is related to Urth's turning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally I've never been convinced by the 'powers only available after\nthe White Fountain light reaches Urth / is above the horizon' theory\n(even though this is clearly posited in the text and appears for sure to\nbe what [Wolfe tells us that] Severian believes) just because Sev / Apu\nPunchau performs miracles of healing (and resurrection? I forget. I\ndon't have UOTNS in front of me now) from the time he arrives in the\nprimitive village; it's part of why the villagers come to follow him in\nthe first place.\n\nAdmitted that the most up-front 'miracle' of all, the failure of the\nsunrise, is caused by the Yesodis not by Severian; but Sev does\nelsewhere state explicitly that he performed healings and other works\nearly in his stay in that era, and indeed I seem to remember he is\nactually puzzled by his ability to do this in the pre-White-Fountain era!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "CH L \"Darkness in the House of Day\" is when he writes:\n\n\"The injured and the ill were brought to me for healing; some I cured as \nI had cured Declan, or as we of the guild had been taught to prolong the \nlives of our clients. Others died in my arms. Perhaps I could have \nrevivified the dead as well, as I had recalled poor Zama; I never \nattempted to do so.\"\n\n...but in CH XXIX \"Among the Villagers\", Declan's healing is described:\n\n\"After a moment I realized it was no longer quite so dark as it had \nbeen. A faint light played across him, moving with the movements of my \neyes. My first thought was that it came from the thorn I kept in the \nlittle leather sack Dorcas had sewn for the Claw, though it seemed \nimpossible that it could shine through the leather and my shirt in such \na way. I took it out. It was as dark as it had been when I had tried to \nlight the corridor outside my cabin with it, and I put it away again. \"\n\n\"I pulled down the homespuns that had covered him and found he was naked \nbeneath them. His right side was swollen, the lump the size of a child's \nhead. I smoothed it away, thrilling to the power that surged out of \nUrth, through my legs and out my fingers.\"\n\nSo he's drawing on the power in the ground when he does this sort of \nhealing, and his own eyes light up instead of the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the 'miraculous' powers are more part of Severian himself than\neven Severian realises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems he has the gift to draw from different sources of energy to do \nhis healing, at least. But if the Claw-White Fountain connection \ntranscends time, it ought to work at any time of the day. If it can be \nblocked by the limb of Urth, why does it work in the mines on the ape?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5505F5229C164CD0879AFEE0F5A123FA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-01T16:55:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4F006594.40209@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 1:54 PM\n\"I pulled down the homespuns that had covered him and found he was naked \nbeneath them. His right side was swollen, the lump the size of a child's \nhead. I smoothed it away, thrilling to the power that surged out of \nUrth, through my legs and out my fingers.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems he has the gift to draw from different sources of energy to do \nhis healing, at least. But if the Claw-White Fountain connection \ntranscends time, it ought to work at any time of the day. If it can be \nblocked by the limb of Urth, why does it work in the mines on the ape?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we really know he is drawing on a power from Urth? That is how he interprets it, but on what evidence? He doesn’t really feel the source, or he would not first have checked the Claw.\n\nThat said, he drained the batteries of the Ship at one point, so clearly he could draw power from there. But the power he has is connected with an ability to reverse the flow of time. This is plausible for a white hole, and perhaps also for a Yesodi ship.\n\nI would speculate that he draws only on such sources, and the White Fountain is not truly blocked by Urth. But perhaps there are other sources. The Cumaean, for example, draws on the power of an ancient creature on the planet of a distant star to accomplish her own temporal delvings.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F009B9B.9080000@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-01T17:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<5505F5229C164CD0879AFEE0F5A123FA@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/1/2012 10:55 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson \n*Sent:* Sunday, January 01, 2012 1:54 PM\n\n > \"I pulled down the homespuns that had covered him and found he was naked\n > beneath them. His right side was swollen, the lump the size of a child's\n > head. I smoothed it away, thrilling to the power that surged out of\n > Urth, through my legs and out my fingers.\"\n\n > It seems he has the gift to draw from different sources of energy to do\n > his healing, at least. But if the Claw-White Fountain connection\n > transcends time, it ought to work at any time of the day. If it can be\n > blocked by the limb of Urth, why does it work in the mines on the ape?\nDo we really know he is drawing on a power from Urth? That is how he\ninterprets it, but on what evidence? He doesn’t really feel the source,\nor he would not first have checked the Claw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the quote you just snipped, Sev says he checks the Claw to see if it \nis glowing. It is several moments and paragraphs later (also snipped) \nthat he does the healing and feels the thrilling mojo." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-01T18:09:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4F009B9B.9080000@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/1/2012 10:55 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we really know he is drawing on a power from Urth? That is how he\ninterprets it, but on what evidence? He doesn’t really feel the source,\nor he would not first have checked the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the quote you just snipped, Sev says he checks the Claw to see if it \nis glowing. It is several moments and paragraphs later (also snipped) \nthat he does the healing and feels the thrilling mojo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you’re saying that the Claw might have started to glow afterwards? But he does indicate that there was already a glow apparently emanating from his eyes.\nDoes it matter anyway? I think it’s clear that the Claw at most held a residual trace of Severian’s power. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F00A80B.9060209@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-01T18:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/1/2012 12:09 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson \nOn 1/1/2012 10:55 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n >\n > > Do we really know he is drawing on a power from Urth? That is how he\n > > interprets it, but on what evidence? He doesn’t really feel the source,\n > > or he would not first have checked the Claw.\n\n > In the quote you just snipped, Sev says he checks the Claw to see if it\n > is glowing. It is several moments and paragraphs later (also snipped)\n > that he does the healing and feels the thrilling mojo.\nSo you’re saying that the Claw might have started to glow afterwards?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he does indicate that there was already a glow apparently emanating\nfrom his eyes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, though this is apparently the first occasion.\n\n\nThe sequence is:\n\n* Sev barricades the door and windows of the sickroom, which becomes dark.\n\n* Sev notices the room is too dark for him to see the sick man.\n\n* Sev notices the room lightens.\n\n* Sev notices the light moves with his eyes.\n\n* Sev checks to see if the Claw is somehow casting the light, but it is \nstill in its bag in his shirt and when he peeks at it, it is not lit at all.\n\n* Sev chats with the sick man.\n\n* Sev smooths out the lump as he feels the power flow up through him.\n\n* Later, the recovered man confirms he was visited in the sickroom by a \nfigure with glowing eyes.\n\n\nSev's later healing and restoration of Zama to life is similarly \naccompanied by eye-glowing and visceral sensations." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-02T18:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4F00A80B.9060209@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That said, he drained the batteries of the Ship at one point, so " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "clearly he could draw power from there.... ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYep, I think this supports Jane's contention that Severian's power resides mostly\n\nwithin himself. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the power he has is connected with an ability to reverse the flow of time. This " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is plausible for a white hole." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nSo perhaps he can draw from various celestial bodies (Tzadkiel's ship being a small\n\nversion of one) and perhaps his powers vary based on what body he is drawing from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Cumaean, for example, draws on the power of an ancient creature on the planet of a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "distant star to accomplish her own temporal delvings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI have my doubt about this (though the being on Fomalhaut might really provide a temporal\n\ntouchstone). I think the Stone Town meeting was a set-up and that the Cumaean is really \n\ndrawing from Severian's nascent power, as planned. Her plan is to contact Apu Punchau, of\n\nall people in history....and Severian is right there. Coincidence? hm....\n\n \n\nShe doesn't seem to be quite in control of the situation and I don't think she's had many \n\nopportunities to do it before. Hildegrin says Apu Punchau is someone who can \"make a \n\ndifference\". It's to be the crowning achievement of Hildegrein's career of resurrecting the\n\ndead. Merryn offers a vague explanation of him which kind of suggests he is The Conciliator.\n\nAre we to think it is all a coincidence that Severian happens to stumble into a seance which\n\nis meant to contact Apu Punchau and The Conciliator? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }