{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6158", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6158, "subject": "Hanga Sighting", "messages": 33, "voices": 9, "first": "2012-01-04T22:11:40+00:00", "last": "2012-01-11T11:25:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<24f64.7f007cf7.3c36289c@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2012-01-04T22:11:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanga Sighting", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just saw this in the news:\n \n_http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/886379-flying-shark-spotted-7-000ft-in-the-sky\n-shocks-airline-pilot_ \n(http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/886379-flying-shark-spotted-7-000ft-in-the-sky-shocks-airline-pilot) \n \nWonder if the pilot had read Gene Wolfe...\n \n\"?\"He is out there, swimming beside the plane. I watched him for a minute \nor more, until he disappeared into a thunderhead.\"\n\n_http://books.google.com/books?id=L1Rmf8tiwYsC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=%22The+Tr\nee+Is+My+Hat%22&source=bl&ots=Nc-ZpuLjfz&sig=tgrTE9leEkQqud6bDy-9XC0b31E&hlen&sa=X&ei=Ks0ET9awJIWftwfms6TQBg&ved\fEIQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Tre\ne%20Is%20My%20Hat%22&fúlse_ \n(http://books.google.com/books?id=L1Rmf8tiwYsC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=\"The+Tree+Is+My+Hat\"&source=bl&ots=Nc-ZpuLjfz&sig=tgrTE\n9leEkQqud6bDy-9XC0b31E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ks0ET9awJIWftwfms6TQBg&ved\fEIQ6AEwBjg\nK#v=onepage&q=\"The%20Tree%20Is%20My%20Hat\"&fúlse) \n \nMind you, as soon as I began to write this, I noticed that the article \nsays that these Air Swimmers are a popular Christmas gift. And \"The Tree Is \nMy Hat\" has to do with a character named \"Mary Christmas.\" And ... naw. \nWolfe can't have had this tradition in mind, can he?\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2012-01-04T23:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanga Sighting", "in_reply_to": "<24f64.7f007cf7.3c36289c@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So cool!\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 4, 2012, at 2:11 PM, JBarach at aol.com wrote:\nJust saw this in the news:\n \nhttp://www.metro.co.uk/weird/886379-flying-shark-spotted-7-000ft-in-the-sky-shocks-airline-pilot\n \nWonder if the pilot had read Gene Wolfe...\n \n\"?\"He is out there, swimming beside the plane. I watched him for a minute or more, until he disappeared into a thunderhead.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=L1Rmf8tiwYsC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=%22The+Tree+Is+My+Hat%22&source=bl&ots=Nc-ZpuLjfz&sig=tgrTE9leEkQqud6bDy-9XC0b31E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ks0ET9awJIWftwfms6TQBg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Tree%20Is%20My%20Hat%22&f=false\n \nMind you, as soon as I began to write this, I noticed that the article says that these Air Swimmers are a popular Christmas gift. And \"The Tree Is My Hat\" has to do with a character named \"Mary Christmas.\" And ... naw. Wolfe can't have had this tradition in mind, can he?\n \nJohn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CE9953E28F0DB7-A10-553B2@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "jbarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2012-01-04T23:58:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanga Sighting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier, I wrote:\nMind you, as soon as I began to write this, I noticed that the\narticle says that these Air Swimmers are a popular Christmas\ngift. And \"The Tree Is My Hat\" has to do with a character\nnamed \"Mary Christmas.\" And ... naw. Wolfe can't have had\nthis tradition in mind, can he? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interpretive excitement producing momentary blindness, of course. The article DOESN'T say that flying these things is any sort of \"tradition,\" though I wish it did. =) Something in my brain seized onto \"Christmas\" and the flying shark and the fact that \"The Tree Is My Hat\" takes place somewhere near New Zealand/Australia, and suddenly all else faded from view.... \n\nStill, it was cool to see a Hanga appearance in the news.\n\nJohn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F051E8C.5060306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-01-05T03:52:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<24f64.7f007cf7.3c36289c@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been proposed that Severian sees the birth or death of his universe \nfrom Tzadkiel's ship as they travel to Yesod. Here's an image that might \nsuggest what that looked like and why:\n\nhttp://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/01/most-popular-galleries/?pid=2822&pageid=91037\n\nImagine traveling down the tube from the satellite/probe (to the right) \nto the birth of the universe (on the left).\n\nNo word yet on what the end of this universe looks like, but personally \nI'd expect more red than blue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<31D23550B0DB48CE82668BE1B132F3C0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-05T15:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<4F051E8C.5060306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been proposed that Severian sees the birth or death of his universe \nfrom Tzadkiel's ship as they travel to Yesod. Here's an image that might \nsuggest what that looked like and why:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/01/most-popular-galleries/?pid=2822&pageid=91037" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Imagine traveling down the tube from the satellite/probe (to the right) \nto the birth of the universe (on the left)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s a diagram, not an image. Anyway, the beginning of the universe would look the same as in any Big Bang model, i.e, very hot and dense: hot in the sense of 10 with a lot of zeroes hot.\nOf course we can still see something close to the beginning of the universe now, but due to what is usually interpreted as the expansion of space, the temperature we measure is only about 3 degrees Kelvin, and it looks like microwaves. The blue filled circle in the left of the image is supposed to show how the temperature of the microwaves varies slightly as we look in different directions. We don’t see any light coming directly from before the time the universe fell to a temperature of a few thousand degrees, though. At that point atoms formed and matter became relatively transparent compared to the previously existing plasma." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No word yet on what the end of this universe looks like, but personally \nI'd expect more red than blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The image describes an accelerated inflation scenario, in which the universe expands forever, more and more rapidly. Beyond a certain point it is effectively empty.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T17:36:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<31D23550B0DB48CE82668BE1B132F3C0@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could be a could time to resurrect a discussion regarding Apu Punchau's\nmiracle. I think the pertinent information we are given is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian’s prolongation of the night, however, may leave less credulous minds \npuzzling over the ways in which such a marvel might be achieved without a \ncataclysm greater than that which accompanied the arrival of the New Sun...\nNothing Severian writes indicates what the opaque body may have been; but the \nthoughtful reader will find little difficulty in advancing at least one plausible \nspeculation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn my first reading I took the \"thoughtful reader\" reference to be ironic, meaning\nvery little thought is required to guess that the moon (or Lune, as it were) was\nused. This was in keeping with the trend of other Severian-produced clamities when \nhe is troubled, like storms, earthquakes and ship blackouts, which seem associated \nwith the Urth or other celestial bodies.\n \nI was surprised to learn from this board that others assume it is Tzadkiel's ship \nor perhaps B, F and O's smaller ship, come to deliver a black hole to the center of\nthe old sun. The popularity of this theory is notable, but I have trouble with it\nfor a number of reasons. Tzadkiel's ship doesn't seem to want to enter the solar\nsystem. B, F and O's ship isn't big enough. And the timing for either doesn't seem\nto be right. The black hole could either be a naturally occurring phenomenon or a \npunishment delivered during Typhon's time, but why bring it during this primitive\ntime? Also, B, F and O don't arrive until a while later, after Severian has been \nApu Punchau for a while and has been killed.\n \nYou could stretch the time frame around using time travel or other explanations.\nBut I still like the moon theory best. Partly because it seems the simplest and most \ndirect interpretation from the text and partly because it better alludes to the \neclipse in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T17:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm.\n\nIt seems to me that Apu-Punchau's eclipse might well be local, even\nmore local than a solar eclipse normally is. In that case, a smaller\nobject than Lune will do.\n\nPerhaps this is the arrival of the Megatherians? They are as big as\nmountains and could cast such a shadow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThis could be a could time to resurrect a discussion regarding Apu Punchau's\nmiracle. I think the pertinent information we are given is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian’s prolongation of the night, however, may leave less credulous minds\npuzzling over the ways in which such a marvel might be achieved without a\ncataclysm greater than that which accompanied the arrival of the New Sun...\nNothing Severian writes indicates what the opaque body may have been; but the\nthoughtful reader will find little difficulty in advancing at least one plausible\nspeculation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my first reading I took the \"thoughtful reader\" reference to be ironic, meaning\nvery little thought is required to guess that the moon (or Lune, as it were) was\nused. This was in keeping with the trend of other Severian-produced clamities when\nhe is troubled, like storms, earthquakes and ship blackouts, which seem associated\nwith the Urth or other celestial bodies.\n\nI was surprised to learn from this board that others assume it is Tzadkiel's ship\nor perhaps B, F and O's smaller ship, come to deliver a black hole to the center of\nthe old sun. The popularity of this theory is notable, but I have trouble with it\nfor a number of reasons. Tzadkiel's ship doesn't seem to want to enter the solar\nsystem. B, F and O's ship isn't big enough. And the timing for either doesn't seem\nto be right. The black hole could either be a naturally occurring phenomenon or a\npunishment delivered during Typhon's time, but why bring it during this primitive\ntime? Also, B, F and O don't arrive until a while later, after Severian has been\nApu Punchau for a while and has been killed.\n\nYou could stretch the time frame around using time travel or other explanations.\nBut I still like the moon theory best. Partly because it seems the simplest and most\ndirect interpretation from the text and partly because it better alludes to the\neclipse in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5FCDB58467D948BE95B73BDC224A0399@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T18:09:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "H'mmmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that Apu-Punchau's eclipse might well be local, even\nmore local than a solar eclipse normally is. In that case, a smaller\nobject than Lune will do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this is the arrival of the Megatherians? They are as big as\nmountains and could cast such a shadow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we interpret the bean story as referring to the sea monsters, they would appear to have started relatively small and grown. This would also gel with Juturna’s observation that they watch Baldanders because he is like them.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T18:12:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<5FCDB58467D948BE95B73BDC224A0399@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIf we interpret the bean story as referring to the sea monsters, they would\nappear to have started relatively small and grown. This would also gel with\nJuturna’s observation that they watch Baldanders because he is like them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but _where_ did they \"start small\"? We know that they can \"swim\"\nbetween the stars." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3BAE3B4D4FA247C890655EF0A43A5D09@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T19:02:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we interpret the bean story as referring to the sea monsters, they would\nappear to have started relatively small and grown. This would also gel with\nJuturna’s observation that they watch Baldanders because he is like them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but _where_ did they \"start small\"? We know that they can \"swim\"\nbetween the stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T19:18:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<3BAE3B4D4FA247C890655EF0A43A5D09@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nDoesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, the thing is, I have never been completely convinced that the\nbean story was about the megatherians. I don't have an alternate\nexplanation, but there it is.\n\nSometimes I think we try to hard to connect everything in tBotNS to\neverything else in tBotNS." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T19:31:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always assumed a connection between the beans and the Megatherians\nbecause Jonas tells the story (which remains unfinished) in the same\nchapter as the disturbance at the gate, which IIRC was the attempt by\nthe Undines swimming through the opening in the wall that the Gyoll\nflows through, which also ends quite suddenly. In otherwords Wolfe\ngives us two unfinished stories about the Megatherions at the same\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/6/12, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See, the thing is, I have never been completely convinced that the\nbean story was about the megatherians. I don't have an alternate\nexplanation, but there it is.\n\nSometimes I think we try to hard to connect everything in tBotNS to\neverything else in tBotNS.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T19:52:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: It seems to me that Apu-Punchau's eclipse might \nwell be local, even more local than a solar eclipse normally is. In \nthat case, a smaller object than Lune will do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, a regular solar eclipse is fairly local as seen here:\nhttp://mail.colonial.net/~hkaiter/Aaa_web_images2012/SolarEclipse.jpg\n \nAre you thinking it is even more local because other tribes don't initially\nrecognize Severian as Apu Punchau, and remain hostile?\n \nWell, anyway, the moon still makes more sense to me as a hiero-ship doesn't\nseem to have any business there at the time. Plus, like the storm, the eclipse\nseems to begin and end with Severian's emotional state." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sometimes I think we try to hard to connect everything in tBotNS to\neverything else in tBotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt still makes sense to me. More than one person views the story as a\n\"labryinth\" and it seems constructed that way to me. It isn't really linear.\nWhen you turn a corner in this story you are as likely to find something \nalready encountered as something new." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The beans are from the stars. This is part of the basis by which I associate\nInire and the Cumaean, acknowledged aliens, with the megatherians, not to \nmention the hiero-types." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: I always assumed a connection between the beans and the Megatherians\nbecause Jonas tells the story (which remains unfinished) in the same chapter as the \ndisturbance at the gate, which IIRC was the attempt by the Undines swimming through \nthe opening in the wall that the Gyoll flows through, which also ends quite suddenly. \nIn otherwords Wolfe gives us two unfinished stories about the Megatherions at the \nsame time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a pretty outlandish theory, Larry. One that generated a lot of heat in here a\nnumber of years ago. I like it!\n \nWhat the heck did happen at the Piteous Gate? Something significant enough to be\nmentioned by Hildegrin in the next book. The parsimonious argue it was just a road-\nblock and people in fear of soldiers turning back into a narrow tunnel. The outlandish \nargue that there are hints of an undine swimming upstream and causing a disturbance there. \n(I think Borski postulates that shape-changing Hethor accidentally became a monster there\nand caused the disturbance; Hethor is acting pretty weird before the fact)\n \nI think there is a semi-consensus that Severian is being tracked in his travels but in\nthis case, would the undine be tracking Severian, Baldanders or both? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T20:09:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meant to mention the dedication of 5HoC which thanks Damon Knight \n\n\"who one night in 1966 grew me from a bean.\"\n \nMight have nothing to do the black beans which grown into\nmegatherians. But if it does, it could jibe with the idea of\nauthor as the demiurgical creator of a story. \n \nGene Wolfe as god-like being who breaks off pieces of himself and\ninserts them as characters into his story creations? It fits a\ncertain pattern I see; one which seems to jibe with the world-view\nof Gene Wolfe as discerned from his interviews. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1325881635.50372.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T20:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See, the thing is, I have never been completely convinced that the\nbean story was about the megatherians. I don't have an alternate\nexplanation, but there it is.\n\nSometimes I think we try to hard to connect everything in tBotNS to\neverything else in tBotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For example, we assume that \"megatherians\" means Erebus, Abaia, and the rest, although there's at least one other possibility, beyond the possibility that they're not connected to anything we know about.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T20:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<1325881635.50372.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFor example, we assume that \"megatherians\" means Erebus, Abaia, and the rest, although there's at least one other possibility, beyond the possibility that they're not connected to anything we know about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nWait, what. What other possibility?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<794E3DD3D773419BBAE785BB33A35553@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T21:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The beans are from the stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But they were [if we assume that the woman who brought them had made arrangements to have it done in the event of her execution] thrown into the seas of Urth. And if indeed they represent the source of the sea-monsters, that is where they grew. So the sea-monsters would not have flown to Urth, blocking the sun.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-06T21:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Doesn’t the bean story indicate they started in the seas of Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The beans are from the stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But they were [if we assume that the woman who brought them had made arrangements to have it done in the event of her execution] thrown into the seas of Urth. And if indeed they represent the source of the sea-monsters, that is where they grew. So the sea-monsters would not have flown to Urth, blocking the sun.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1325897420.70465.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-01-07T00:50:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For example, we assume that \"megatherians\" means Erebus, Abaia, and the rest, although there's at least one other possibility, beyond the possibility that they're not connected to anything we know about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nWait, what. What other possibility?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That they're the original human Group of Seventeen. Then \"megatherian\" would mean \"follower of the great beasts\".\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F088949.8090204@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-07T18:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/6/2012 9:36 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI was surprised to learn from this board that others assume it is Tzadkiel's ship\nor perhaps B, F and O's smaller ship, come to deliver a black hole to the center of\nthe old sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall seeing anyone suggest the black hole is delivered during \nthis time.\n\nIt is likely to be Tzadkiel's Ship because:\n\n* it is big enough.\n* it is equipped with reflective surfaces to show the off-season \nconstellations.\n* FB&O are known to ride on it.\n* Tzadkiel has a favorable personal relationship with Severian.\n* The event is foreshadowed by Tzadkiel mentioning helping a childhood \nhero, and by a sailor mentioning the Ship occasionally gets between \nsomeone's eyes and some stars." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-09T19:04:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<4F088949.8090204@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It is likely to be Tzadkiel's Ship because:\n* it is big enough.\n* it is equipped with reflective surfaces to show the off-season constellations.\n* FB&O are known to ride on it.\n* Tzadkiel has a favorable personal relationship with Severian.\n* The event is foreshadowed by Tzadkiel mentioning helping a childhood \nhero, and by a sailor mentioning the Ship occasionally gets between \nsomeone's eyes and some stars. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, there is a significant contingent who think the exclipse was caused\nby Tzadkiel's ship and I acknowledge and respect that. My objection are: \n \nUntil that point, when he is disturbed, Severian's powers are naturalistic \nand drawn from heavenly bodies. If Tzadkiel's ship caused the eclipse it\nmeans that Severian and his emotions have nothing to do with it, a departure\nfrom the rest of the story. \n \nAlso, Tzadkiel says he was an acolyte of Severian's in (this?) previous iteration.\nUsing his/her Ship to provide a \"deus ex machina\" to provide a fake basis for \nSeverian's godhood doesn't seem to fit the acolyte bill for me. I like the idea \nof Apu Punchau really being a sun-controlling god better.\n(plus I think Tzadkiel appears in the story as Severian's acolyte in a different \nguise)\n\nThe Ship may be big enough and all that but it is an unatural and unnecessary \naddition to the story since a large body to block the sun already exists. When the \nthe white fountain arrives, it causes major cataclysms on Urth via \"waves of \ngravitation\". Adding a moon-sized Ship to Urth's vicinity might cause similar \nproblems that locking the existing moon in place for a few extra hours wouldn't. \n \nFurther, Wolfe spends an inordinate amount of time adding a story component in \nwhich Tzadkiel's ship parks outside the solar system and sends in a small tender\nto drop Severian off on Urth. Maybe he/she is just trying to avoid the ship being \ndetected by Typhon but that seems pretty weak to me. As mentioned before, FB&O do \nnot appear on Urth at this time. They come later.\n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-09T19:13:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWhen the\nthe white fountain arrives, it causes major cataclysms on Urth via \"waves of\ngravitation\". Adding a moon-sized Ship to Urth's vicinity might cause similar\nproblems that locking the existing moon in place for a few extra hours wouldn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, that would have horrendous tidal effects, probably including\nmassive earthquakes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8DF4D3588ADA46209F3DC338D9ECBE10@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-09T19:44:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Ship may be big enough and all that but it is an unatural and unnecessary \naddition to the story since a large body to block the sun already exists. When the \nthe white fountain arrives, it causes major cataclysms on Urth via \"waves of \ngravitation\". Adding a moon-sized Ship to Urth's vicinity might cause similar \nproblems that locking the existing moon in place for a few extra hours wouldn't. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say the opposite: stopping the Moon in its orbit would be a cataclysmic event. And while the Ship is large, it is indicated to be about the size of an island ruled by a minor lord, which seems much smaller than the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Further, Wolfe spends an inordinate amount of time adding a story component in \nwhich Tzadkiel's ship parks outside the solar system and sends in a small tender\nto drop Severian off on Urth. Maybe he/she is just trying to avoid the ship being \ndetected by Typhon but that seems pretty weak to me. As mentioned before, FB&O do \nnot appear on Urth at this time. They come later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, Wolfe mentions on two separate occasions that the Ship sometimes comes much closer in...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F0BBF44.6060804@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T04:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/2012 11:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It is likely to be Tzadkiel's Ship because:\n* it is big enough.\n* it is equipped with reflective surfaces to show the off-season constellations.\n* FB&O are known to ride on it.\n* Tzadkiel has a favorable personal relationship with Severian.\n* The event is foreshadowed by Tzadkiel mentioning helping a childhood\nhero, and by a sailor mentioning the Ship occasionally gets between\nsomeone's eyes and some stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there is a significant contingent who think the exclipse was caused\nby Tzadkiel's ship and I acknowledge and respect that. My objection are:\n\nUntil that point, when he is disturbed, Severian's powers are naturalistic\nand drawn from heavenly bodies. If Tzadkiel's ship caused the eclipse it\nmeans that Severian and his emotions have nothing to do with it, a departure\nfrom the rest of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The way Sev and his emotions have nothing to do with the flying cathedral?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Tzadkiel says he was an acolyte of Severian's in (this?) previous iteration.\nUsing his/her Ship to provide a \"deus ex machina\" to provide a fake basis for\nSeverian's godhood doesn't seem to fit the acolyte bill for me. I like the idea\nof Apu Punchau really being a sun-controlling god better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzad already gives him legitimate godhood as the New Sun by connecting \nhim to the White Fountain. Tzad is also already complicit in at least \ntwo other flim-flam jobs on Sev and the sailors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(plus I think Tzadkiel appears in the story as Severian's acolyte in a different\nguise)\n\nThe Ship may be big enough and all that but it is an unatural and unnecessary\naddition to the story since a large body to block the sun already exists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unnecessary? Was he going to take the train to Yesod?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When the\nthe white fountain arrives, it causes major cataclysms on Urth via \"waves of\ngravitation\". Adding a moon-sized Ship to Urth's vicinity might cause similar\nproblems that locking the existing moon in place for a few extra hours wouldn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The moon has about the same surface area as Africa, yet the crew \nmentions it would take days of walking to come together rather than \nmonths. There's also Severian's ill-advised leap that threatens to leave \nhim forever apart from the Ship; it's asteroid-sized at best. The moon \nwould also fail to reflect the constellations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Further, Wolfe spends an inordinate amount of time adding a story component in\nwhich Tzadkiel's ship parks outside the solar system and sends in a small tender\nto drop Severian off on Urth. Maybe he/she is just trying to avoid the ship being\ndetected by Typhon but that seems pretty weak to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urth XXVI:\n\"I meant where the ship is. We're outside the circle of Dis.\"\nI said, \"Once I was told by a man who knew much of the future that a \nwoman I sought was aboveground. I thought he meant merely that she was \nstill alive. The ship's always been outside the circle of Dis.\"\n...\n\"Sometimes they bring the big one in a good bit closer than this,\" the \nhand detailed to guide us confided as we came aboard. \"Only they can't \nhelp getting between somebody's eyes and a few stars when they do. So \nyou'll be about a day with us.\"\n\nIf you mean inordinately *small*, then 2 lines of dialogue qualifies, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As mentioned before, FB&O do\nnot appear on Urth at this time. They come later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you mean the span of years between the eclipse and the resurrection, \nis that a particular barrier for time-traveling aliens from another \nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T17:41:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<4F0BBF44.6060804@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I would say the opposite: stopping the Moon in its orbit would be a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "cataclysmic event. And while the Ship is large, it is indicated to be about the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "size of an island ruled by a minor lord, which seems much smaller than the Moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm..who would be a major lord, in this case?\n\n \n\nAnyway, I'm curious where you get the comparison in size to \"island\". I'm curious \n\nbecause in Severian's first view of Tzadkiel he is island-sized. The Ship is \n\ndescribed, once or twice, as being like a living thing. I've sometimes wondered if\n\nthe Ship itself is a version of Tzadkiel. That would be some mighty, mighty shape-\n\nshifting.\n\n \n\nAnyway, if the ship was much smaller than the moon it would have to be a lot closer\n\nthan the moon to Urth to cause an eclipse. I think gravity would become an issue, \n\nespecially since the Ship would have to remain parked, stationary over one particular\n\nspot on Urth for hours (a normal total solar eclipse only lasts a few minutes). I\n\ndon't see mirror sails being a very effective way of accomplishing this and no other\n\nmeans of propulsion is mentioned.\n\n \n\nYou could say, \"well, maybe they have backup impulse power..\" or whatever. But it is \n\nsimilar to the issue of inhumi flying through space. You have to pile on speculation\n\natop of speculation to make it work, when a much simpler answer is available.\n\n \n\n(I disagree that a stationary moon over the course of a few hours would cause cataclysms.\n\nWhy would it? I think it would just maintain high tides for a while. Maybe change wind\n\npatterns. Far less cataclysmic than adding a second moon. And I still think Apu PUnchau\n\nworks better as a real sun god, rather than a fake, Twainsy one. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T18:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n(I disagree that a stationary moon over the course of a few hours would cause cataclysms.\nWhy would it? I think it would just maintain high tides for a while. Maybe change wind\npatterns. Far less cataclysmic than adding a second moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly less cataclysmic than \"adding a second moon,\" which I don't\nbelieve anyone has suggested, but more cataclysmic than you apparently\nunderstand. The tidal effects of Lune are limited by its constant\nmotion relative to Urth (that is to say, by Urth's rotation on its\naxis). If Lune were to alter its orbital velocity so that it was\nstationary relative to the surface of Urth -- by the way, an\nunimaginably immense amount of energy would be required to do this,\nand it would have consequences immediately noticeable in the phases of\nLune -- the tides would not merely \"maintain\" but pile up, pushing\nfirst the oceans and then the crust of Urth into increasingly (with,\nadmittedly, limits) distorted forms. Earthquakes and floods _would_ be\nthe result. (I don't mention volcanoes because Urth is said to have a\ndead core.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T18:15:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The way Sev and his emotions have nothing to do with the flying cathedral?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWrong story ;-). That's the beginning of Shadow and we are all the way to the end of Urth.\n\nSeverian has gone through some changes in the duration, yes? Anyway, there is no suspicion\n\nraised that Severian caused the cathedral to fly using his power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzad already gives him legitimate godhood as the New Sun by connecting \nhim to the White Fountain. Tzad is also already complicit in at least \ntwo other flim-flam jobs on Sev and the sailors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian seems able to draw power from the Urth (and the Ship) not just the White Fountain.\n\nEarlier in this discussion it was postulated that his time travel abilities come from the\n\nWHite Fountain while perhaps his human healing powers come from the Urth, since he does \n\nsome of that as Apu Punchau. I think the storm and earthquake are also Urthly in nature so\n\nperhaps the eclipse also.\n\n \n\nYes, Tzadkiel is a deceiving scoundrel (as are his avatars on Urth, imho). No argument there.\n\nBut it seems like overkill. Why would he/she go through the gargantuan effort of parking the\n\nShip for hours and playing tug-of-war with Urth's, Lune's and the Sun's gravity just to save \n\nSeverian's life from some primitives? Seems a lot easier (and amazing to primitives) to do\n\nwhat was done when Apu Punchau actually was killed: send in Ossipago and create an eidolon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Ship may be big enough and all that but it is an unatural and unnecessary\naddition to the story since a large body to block the sun already exists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unnecessary? Was he going to take the train to Yesod?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He wasn't going to Yesod at the time of the eclipse. There was no reason for the Ship to be\n\nthere except to participate in elaborate, extravagent and unnecessary theatrics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The ship's always been outside the circle of Dis.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Sometimes they bring the big one in a good bit closer than this,\" the \nhand detailed to guide us confided as we came aboard. \"Only they can't \nhelp getting between somebody's eyes and a few stars when they do. So \nyou'll be about a day with us.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes, the above quote is the best evidence for the Ship being the cause of the eclipse. And it\n\nis pretty good. I've never denied it. I've only argued that I have doubts because of counter-\n\nevidence, which I've been listing. The tender captain may know more about the Ship than Severian \n\nbut Wolfe still has Severian say the Ship has always been outside the circle of Dis (alternate \n\nname for Pluto). Why is this necessary? Is Tzadkiel trying to avoid all the spying eyes living on \n\nNeptune and Uranus? Must we postulate unmentioned human civilizations on gas giant moons to make\n\nthis theory work?\n\n \n\nAnyway, it might be the Ship causing the eclipse. But it might not be. There are numerous other \n\nWOlfe puzzles which appear deliberately to have two or more contradictory answers. This may be \n\nan example of one and it seemed worth mentioning and participating in the inevitable debate.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<99560FBAB22043F8BF88DA6AFE9CA10A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T20:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I would say the opposite: stopping the Moon in its orbit would be a \ncataclysmic event. And while the Ship is large, it is indicated to be about the \nsize of an island ruled by a minor lord, which seems much smaller than the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm..who would be a major lord, in this case?\nAnyway, I'm curious where you get the comparison in size to \"island\". I'm curious\nbecause in Severian's first view of Tzadkiel he is island-sized. The Ship is \ndescribed, once or twice, as being like a living thing. I've sometimes wondered if\nthe Ship itself is a version of Tzadkiel. That would be some mighty, mighty shape-\nshifting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“he ship was larger than many an isle that boasts a hall and an armiger in it who thinks himself almost a monarch”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, if the ship was much smaller than the moon it would have to be a lot closer\nthan the moon to Urth to cause an eclipse. I think gravity would become an issue, \nespecially since the Ship would have to remain parked, stationary over one particular\nspot on Urth for hours (a normal total solar eclipse only lasts a few minutes). I\ndon't see mirror sails being a very effective way of accomplishing this and no other\nmeans of propulsion is mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You could say, \"well, maybe they have backup impulse power..\" or whatever. But it is \nsimilar to the issue of inhumi flying through space. You have to pile on speculation\natop of speculation to make it work, when a much simpler answer is available." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf the Ship sometimes comes in close to a star, as we are told, it must have some auxiliary power source. By contrast, think about the power needed to stop and restart the Moon in its orbit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I disagree that a stationary moon over the course of a few hours would cause cataclysms.\nWhy would it? I think it would just maintain high tides for a while. Maybe change wind\npatterns. Far less cataclysmic than adding a second moon. And I still think Apu PUnchau\nworks better as a real sun god, rather than a fake, Twainsy one. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Moon travels in its orbit at a speed of half a kilometre per second. What do you think happens when you crash-stop a body of 3500 km diameter moving at that speed?\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T21:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, January 10, 2012 12:15, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The way Sev and his emotions have nothing to do with the\nflying cathedral?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wrong story ;-). That's the beginning of Shadow and we are all the way to\nthe end of Urth.\n\nSeverian has gone through some changes in the duration, yes? Anyway, there\nis no suspicion\n\nraised that Severian caused the cathedral to fly using his power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you are of the opinion that none of the improbable occurrences that\nhappen around Sev are connected to him? Despite his own,\ncosmically-enhanced perception that they are?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tzad already gives him legitimate godhood as the New Sun by connecting\nhim to the White Fountain. Tzad is also already complicit in at least\ntwo other flim-flam jobs on Sev and the sailors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, Tzadkiel is a deceiving scoundrel (as are his avatars on Urth, imho).\nNo argument there.\n\nBut it seems like overkill. Why would he/she go through the gargantuan\neffort of parking the\n\nShip for hours and playing tug-of-war with Urth's, Lune's and the Sun's\ngravity just to save\n\nSeverian's life from some primitives?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why does he arrange the show trials? Why does he do anything? To preserve\nthe carefully fiddled timeloops that allow Sev to have the adventures\nnecessary to bring Ushas. The few hours of parking is relatively trivial\nnext to the centuries of sailing back and forth from Briah to Yesod as\nwell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wasn't going to Yesod at the time of the eclipse. There was no reason\nfor the Ship to be\n\nthere except to participate in elaborate, extravagent and unnecessary\ntheatrics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes!!! The Yesodis are all about the spectacle! How many times does Sev\nponder how the events of life are like a play being put on for the benefit\nfor an unseen audience? In fact, putting on shows is just abut all we see\nthe Yesodis and their cousins do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The tender captain may know more about\nthe Ship than Severian\n\nbut Wolfe still has Severian say the Ship has always been outside the\ncircle of Dis (alternate\n\nname for Pluto). Why is this necessary?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It establishes that Sev has no experience with The Ship being near earth\nat that point of his story. Due to the time travel, both can be correct\nfrom their respective perspectives." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4c87069b637d87d162123d303d77c7b0.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-10T21:40:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, January 10, 2012 11:41, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, if the ship was much smaller than the moon it would have to be a\nlot closer\n\nthan the moon to Urth to cause an eclipse. I think gravity would become an\nissue,\n\nespecially since the Ship would have to remain parked, stationary over one\nparticular\n\nspot on Urth for hours (a normal total solar eclipse only lasts a few\nminutes). I\n\ndon't see mirror sails being a very effective way of accomplishing this\nand no other\n\nmeans of propulsion is mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mirror sails (\"continents of silver\") may actually be of a scale\nsimilar to the moon, but they can be microscopically thin so that they\nmass less than a walnut per square mile so enough sail to equal the size\nof the moon could mass less than a walnut tree.\n\nAs for the relative size and distance of the occulting object, the sun and\nmoon are both about half a degree wide as seen from earth. This means that\nthe umbra narrows about 1 part for every 200 parts the object is away. An\nobject like a sail on a long tether could hang 100 miles up and only need\nto be half a mile wider than the desired area of totality.\n\nSo it may not be \"The Ship\" in its entirety, but a sail cast off to dangle\nand then *poof* when it hits the atmosphere." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-01-11T06:04:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<4c87069b637d87d162123d303d77c7b0.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: So you are of the opinion that none of the improbable occurrences that\nhappen around Sev are connected to him? Despite his own,cosmically-enhanced perception " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that they are?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI'm not comprehending this post. I am suggesting that most/all the improbable occurrences \n\nare connected to him, including the eclipse. That perhaps it is Severian's doing and not \n\nTzadkiel's Ship. That if he is really an Incan sun god then he ought to be a real one who \n\ncaused an eclipse, not a fake one. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does he (Tzadkiel) arrange the show trials? Why does he do anything? To preserve\nthe carefully fiddled timeloops that allow Sev to have the adventures\nnecessary to bring Ushas. The few hours of parking is relatively trivial\nnext to the centuries of sailing back and forth from Briah to Yesod as\nwell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes, it is possible he went through this trouble. If you believe that, perhaps you also\n\nbelieve (as I tend to) that Tzadkiel also arranged 1000 years of Commonwealth history,\n\nplaced/allowed Inire and the Cumaean and the sea monsters on Urth, created the Torturer's\n\nGuild, set up the Ascian war, duped Vodalus, duped Agia, etc. etc. to position Severian \n\nin his proper place. Or would that be too much trouble? Remember, if Tzadkiel's Ship caused\n\nthe eclipse, his/her travels span tens or hundreds of millenia not centuries. A puny 1000\n\nyears of manipulation of one measly planet is indeed trival in comparison.\n\n \n\nBut I still think the eclipse could have been caused by the moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danahey-Oakes: ...but more cataclysmic than you apparently\nunderstand. If Lune were to alter its orbital velocity so that it was\nstationary relative to the surface of Urth -- it would have consequences " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "immediately noticeable in the phases of Lune -- the tides would not merely " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"maintain\" but pile up, pushing first the oceans and then the crust of Urth into " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "increasingly (with, admittedly, limits) distorted forms. Earthquakes and floods _would_ be\nthe result. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHm. I'm not sure what research has been done in this area. But it sounds like you are\n\ntalking about a permanent cessation of moon movement causing these cataclysms. The story is\n\nonly talking about a few hours for Severian's eclipse. My sense is that the moon doesn't\n\nhave that great an impact on earth that a few extra hours of lunar gravity would wreck the place.\n\nBut I think some complex astrophysical computations would be necessary to hazard a truly educated guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "by the way, an unimaginably immense amount of energy would be required to do this" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: think about the power needed to stop and restart the Moon in its orbit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYep, a lot of energy. But not unimaginable to me, if you have the entirety of planet Urth to draw upon.\n\nConsciously or not, isn't Severian a god? (actually he calls himself a \"godling\" at the end of the\n\nstory). If Atlas and Hercules can shoulder earth, I think it is comprehensible that Severian can halt \n\nthe moon for a while, when needed. How much energy is needed to launch a human body to time travel? I'm\n\nno Einsteinian mathematician, but converting and reconverting that much mass to tachyons and back\n\nseems like it would require one heck of a lot of energy. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F0D2E9F.6090503@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-11T06:39:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/11/2012 12:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: So you are of the opinion that none of the improbable occurrences that\nhappen around Sev are connected to him? Despite his own,cosmically-enhanced perception" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that they are?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not comprehending this post. I am suggesting that most/all the improbable occurrences\n\nare connected to him, including the eclipse. That perhaps it is Severian's doing and not\n\nTzadkiel's Ship. That if he is really an Incan sun god then he ought to be a real one who\n\ncaused an eclipse, not a fake one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would Tzadkiel and his Ship be immune from Sev's subconscious \npowers? He's at least familiar with them firsthand, unlike Lune." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does he (Tzadkiel) arrange the show trials? Why does he do anything? To preserve\nthe carefully fiddled timeloops that allow Sev to have the adventures\nnecessary to bring Ushas. The few hours of parking is relatively trivial\nnext to the centuries of sailing back and forth from Briah to Yesod as\nwell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, it is possible he went through this trouble. If you believe that, perhaps you also\n\nbelieve (as I tend to) that Tzadkiel also arranged 1000 years of Commonwealth history,\n\nplaced/allowed Inire and the Cumaean and the sea monsters on Urth, created the Torturer's\n\nGuild, set up the Ascian war, duped Vodalus, duped Agia, etc. etc. to position Severian\n\nin his proper place. Or would that be too much trouble? Remember, if Tzadkiel's Ship caused\n\nthe eclipse, his/her travels span tens or hundreds of millenia not centuries. A puny 1000\n\nyears of manipulation of one measly planet is indeed trival in comparison." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By centuries I refer to the apparent subjective time taken, judging \nroughly by Sev's estimate of 100 days for his round trip. Tzad hesitates \nto paint in broad strokes lest he lose control of his chaotic medium, so \nhe fiddles with it at the rate of perhaps a chilliad or ten per \nmanvantara before his big production number's dress rehearsal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danahey-Oakes: ...but more cataclysmic than you apparently\nunderstand. If Lune were to alter its orbital velocity so that it was\nstationary relative to the surface of Urth -- it would have consequences" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "immediately noticeable in the phases of Lune -- the tides would not merely" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"maintain\" but pile up, pushing first the oceans and then the crust of Urth into" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "increasingly (with, admittedly, limits) distorted forms. Earthquakes and floods _would_ be\nthe result." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. I'm not sure what research has been done in this area. But it sounds like you are\n\ntalking about a permanent cessation of moon movement causing these cataclysms. The story is\n\nonly talking about a few hours for Severian's eclipse. My sense is that the moon doesn't\n\nhave that great an impact on earth that a few extra hours of lunar gravity would wreck the place.\n\nBut I think some complex astrophysical computations would be necessary to hazard a truly educated guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not especially. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "by the way, an unimaginably immense amount of energy would be required to do this" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: think about the power needed to stop and restart the Moon in its orbit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be fair, the White Fountain as described can supply limitless energy, \nand if Sev manipulates time he could do the moon-halting for essentially \nno net energy cost." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<27973266482343D98915DB11F3702CC7@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-01-11T11:25:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: think about the power needed to stop and restart the Moon in its orbit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep, a lot of energy. But not unimaginable to me, if you have the entirety of\nplanet Urth to draw upon. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you mean by that, exactly? \n\nIn fact, we do have some idea of the power needed to perform a resurrection insofar as it is denumerable in units of watt-seconds or whatever. It is about equal to the energy stored in one of the batteries used by the Ship for internal life support. That won’t come close to stopping the Moon in its orbit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consciously or not, isn't Severian a god? (actually \nhe calls himself a \"godling\" at the end of the story). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Godlings in Return to the Whorl are quite limited in their power. Of course we don’t know exactly what Severian means by the word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How much energy is needed to launch \na human body to time travel? I'm no Einsteinian mathematician, but \nconverting and reconverting that much mass to tachyons and back\nseems like it would require one heck of a lot of energy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Time travel is described in the story, and it doesn’t involve conversion to tachyons. It is suggested that characters capable of time travel can perceive more than three dimensions of space and run down certain corridors in space time that are invisible and inaccessible to most of us. (These corridors appear to be a good deal more accommodating and persistent than current physics would suggest.) No particularly great expenditure of energy is implied.\n\nThe Ship does travel faster than light, but no particle conversion is indicated. Tachyons, if they existed, could not support chemistry compatible with a biology even of tachyon-creatures. It is hard to see how even a tachyonic atom could be stable.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }