{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6172", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6172, "subject": "The Wizard", "messages": 158, "voices": 19, "first": "2012-02-27T15:13:23+00:00", "last": "2012-03-13T22:18:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-27T15:13:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After taking a several month break after *The Knight*, I finally got around\nto reading *The Wizard*. I liked it better than the first installment\noverall, but the shift to third-person narration for some of the Jotunland\nscenes didn't work very well, in my opinion. This duology was definitely\none of the more confusing and tricky Wolfe series that I have read, since\nso little is known about the world Able finds himself in (at least, the\nworlds other than Aelfrice, Mythgarthyr and Skai). It was also confusing\nbecause it is such a hodge-podge of mythologies (Arthurian legend, Norse\ngods and goddess, Judeo-Christian, etc.). Anyways, I was wondering if\nanyone thought the universe in these books really is \"cyclical\"; i.e., The\nMost High God and the most low god are indeed the same being, and that the\nhighest and lowest worlds are the same. Reading that portion was one of\nthose Wolfe moments where I have to put the book down for an hour or so,\nand come back later. My first thought is that the most low god was simply\ntrying to deceive Able, and that the worlds are not the same. I was also\nwondering what happened to Mani ... he seemed to disappear about half-way\nthrough the narrative and none of the characters seem to notice (unless I\nmissed it completely). Finally, has anyone picked out connections between *The\nWizard Knight* and *Castleview*? They both involve people from modern day\nAmerica getting entangled with a world that is a blend of Arthurian legend\nand Norse mythology, and I would be very surprised if there wasn't some\nsubtle link between the two works." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-27T18:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been some years, but for what it's worth, the world struck me as more\nGnostic - which, as I understand it, is about the opposite of a 'most high\nand most low are really the same' sort of reality structure (i.e. in\nGnosticism, the farther away, the farther 'down' the chain of existence, a\nbeing is from the originating 'Creator' the less real they are - thus\nmatter is basically 'evil' and 'salvation' is an escape/return into pure\nspirit - as opposite from matter as is possible). I didn't detect any\nJudeo-Christian element except for the (pretty amazing) appearance of\nMichael the Archangel. Indeed, Wolfe professed in an interview to be\nexplicitly trying to write a world that had no Christianity. If it was\nGnostic-based at all, I would suspect Wolfe of being fairly devious and\nsubversive about this - showing how it 'doesn't work' to some degree (as\nwith the closed-system religion of The Whorl in Long Sun). Then again,\nhe's always kept me guessing about his relation to Gnosticism - there's a\nfairly blatant exposition of it at one point in Peace. I never can tell\nwhat he's doing with that.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nAfter taking a several month break after *The Knight*, I finally got\naround to reading *The Wizard*. I liked it better than the first\ninstallment overall, but the shift to third-person narration for some of\nthe Jotunland scenes didn't work very well, in my opinion. This duology\nwas definitely one of the more confusing and tricky Wolfe series that I\nhave read, since so little is known about the world Able finds himself in\n(at least, the worlds other than Aelfrice, Mythgarthyr and Skai). It was\nalso confusing because it is such a hodge-podge of mythologies (Arthurian\nlegend, Norse gods and goddess, Judeo-Christian, etc.). Anyways, I was\nwondering if anyone thought the universe in these books really is\n\"cyclical\"; i.e., The Most High God and the most low god are indeed the\nsame being, and that the highest and lowest worlds are the same. Reading\nthat portion was one of those Wolfe moments where I have to put the book\ndown for an hour or so, and come back later. My first thought is that the\nmost low god was simply trying to deceive Able, and that the worlds are not\nthe same. I was also wondering what happened to Mani ... he seemed to\ndisappear about half-way through the narrative and none of the characters\nseem to notice (unless I missed it completely). Finally, has anyone picked\nout connections between *The Wizard Knight* and *Castleview*? They both\ninvolve people from modern day America getting entangled with a world that\nis a blend of Arthurian legend and Norse mythology, and I would be very\nsurprised if there wasn't some subtle link between the two works.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-27T18:42:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I didn't detect any Judeo-Christian element except for the (pretty\namazing) appearance of Michael the Archangel.\"\n\nThis is what I had in mind as well, but it is impressive enough of an event\nthat I can't help but feel it is important. The terminology \"Most High\" is\nalong Judeo-Christian lines as well, now that I think about it. The \"most\nhigh\" and \"most low\" dichotomy is very dualistic as well; it is almost as\nthough each of the treated pantheons has its own world, but there is no\ntrue overarching cosmology in place. When reading Wolfe, of course, what\nhe *doesn't* show the reader is often just as important as what he does\nshow, which makes me very curious about Kleos and Elysion!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nIt's been some years, but for what it's worth, the world struck me as more\nGnostic - which, as I understand it, is about the opposite of a 'most high\nand most low are really the same' sort of reality structure (i.e. in\nGnosticism, the farther away, the farther 'down' the chain of existence, a\nbeing is from the originating 'Creator' the less real they are - thus\nmatter is basically 'evil' and 'salvation' is an escape/return into pure\nspirit - as opposite from matter as is possible). I didn't detect any\nJudeo-Christian element except for the (pretty amazing) appearance of\nMichael the Archangel. Indeed, Wolfe professed in an interview to be\nexplicitly trying to write a world that had no Christianity. If it was\nGnostic-based at all, I would suspect Wolfe of being fairly devious and\nsubversive about this - showing how it 'doesn't work' to some degree (as\nwith the closed-system religion of The Whorl in Long Sun). Then again,\nhe's always kept me guessing about his relation to Gnosticism - there's a\nfairly blatant exposition of it at one point in Peace. I never can tell\nwhat he's doing with that.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After taking a several month break after *The Knight*, I finally got\naround to reading *The Wizard*. I liked it better than the first\ninstallment overall, but the shift to third-person narration for some of\nthe Jotunland scenes didn't work very well, in my opinion. This duology\nwas definitely one of the more confusing and tricky Wolfe series that I\nhave read, since so little is known about the world Able finds himself in\n(at least, the worlds other than Aelfrice, Mythgarthyr and Skai). It was\nalso confusing because it is such a hodge-podge of mythologies (Arthurian\nlegend, Norse gods and goddess, Judeo-Christian, etc.). Anyways, I was\nwondering if anyone thought the universe in these books really is\n\"cyclical\"; i.e., The Most High God and the most low god are indeed the\nsame being, and that the highest and lowest worlds are the same. Reading\nthat portion was one of those Wolfe moments where I have to put the book\ndown for an hour or so, and come back later. My first thought is that the\nmost low god was simply trying to deceive Able, and that the worlds are not\nthe same. I was also wondering what happened to Mani ... he seemed to\ndisappear about half-way through the narrative and none of the characters\nseem to notice (unless I missed it completely). Finally, has anyone picked\nout connections between *The Wizard Knight* and *Castleview*? They both\ninvolve people from modern day America getting entangled with a world that\nis a blend of Arthurian legend and Norse mythology, and I would be very\nsurprised if there wasn't some subtle link between the two works.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1330379193.3050.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-02-27T21:46:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pretty sure that most low god is lying - it is improper worship which is the problem, kind of like a Pilgrim's Progress morality. People worshipping those lower in the chain are messing up the natural order, but with the right frame of mind those below can be lifted up, maybe. So this guy is the lowest of the low, people are his gods, but he is trying to trick them into worshipping him. He is not connected to the most high, but it is in his best interests to get worship from those above.\n\n--- On Mon, 2/27/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, February 27, 2012, 10:36 AM\n\n\nIt's been some years, but for what it's worth, the world struck me as more Gnostic - which, as I understand it, is about the opposite of a 'most high and most low are really the same' sort of reality structure (i.e. in Gnosticism, the farther away, the farther 'down' the chain of existence, a being is from the originating 'Creator' the less real they are - thus matter is basically 'evil' and 'salvation' is an escape/return into pure spirit - as opposite from matter as is possible). ?I didn't detect any Judeo-Christian element except for the (pretty amazing) appearance of Michael the Archangel. ?Indeed, Wolfe professed in an interview to be explicitly trying to write a world that had no Christianity. ?If it was Gnostic-based at all, I would suspect Wolfe of being fairly devious and subversive about this - showing how it 'doesn't work' to some degree (as with the closed-system religion of The Whorl in Long Sun). ?Then again, he's always kept me\n guessing about his relation to Gnosticism - there's a fairly blatant exposition of it at one point in Peace. ?I never can tell what he's doing with that. ?\n\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nAfter taking a several month break after The Knight, I finally got around to reading The Wizard. I liked it better than the first installment overall, but the shift to third-person narration for some of the Jotunland scenes didn't work very well, in my opinion. This duology was definitely one of the more confusing and tricky Wolfe series that I have read, since so little is known about the world Able finds himself in (at least, the worlds other than Aelfrice, Mythgarthyr and Skai). It was also confusing because it is such a hodge-podge of mythologies (Arthurian legend, Norse gods and goddess, Judeo-Christian, etc.). Anyways, I was wondering if anyone thought the universe in these books really is \"cyclical\"; i.e., The Most High God and the most low god are indeed the same being, and that the highest and lowest worlds are the same. Reading that portion was one of those Wolfe moments where I have to put the book down for an hour or so, and come\n back later. My first thought is that the most low god was simply trying to deceive Able, and that the worlds are not the same. I was also wondering what happened to Mani ... he seemed to disappear about half-way through the narrative and none of the characters seem to notice (unless I missed it completely). Finally, has anyone picked out connections between The Wizard Knight and Castleview? They both involve people from modern day America getting entangled with a world that is a blend of Arthurian legend and Norse mythology, and I would be very surprised if there wasn't some subtle link between the two works.\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-02-27T23:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nI was also wondering what happened to Mani ... he seemed to disappear \nabout half-way through the narrative and none of the characters seem to \nnotice (unless I missed it completely)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Mani stays with Iddn (eg Chapter 36, P 434, \"Iddn had marched north \nwith Svon, Mani...\"), but we don't hear him speak again. Baki mentions \ntalking with him when Art is in the dungeon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1330388272.42305.YahooMailNeo@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-02-28T00:17:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1330379193.3050.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pretty sure that most low god is lying - it is improper worship which is the problem, kind of like a Pilgrim's Progress morality. People worshipping those lower in the chain are messing up the natural order, but with the right frame of mind those below can be lifted up, maybe. So this guy is the lowest of the low, people are his gods," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As are all the other inhabitants of the Seven Worlds. I suppose the dragons are supposed to be his gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he is trying to trick them into worshipping him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with all that. Another proof is that he gets punished for blasphemy, which shows who's top god. This reminds me of a story about the angel Metatron, which I know only from Wikipedia.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron#Origins\n\n(Note the \"citation needed\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is not connected to the most high, but it is in his best interests to get worship from those above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or what he mistakenly thinks are his best interests. As Most Low God, he's probably prone to mistakes.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F4C8E83.8070604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-28T08:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC when things go to hell, the Most Low God turns and runs away. We \nsee his back, so we know he was lying about the worlds being circular. \nAnd surely the Most Low God must always lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I didn't detect any Judeo-Christian element except for the\n (pretty amazing) appearance of\nMichael the Archangel.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ending of The Wizard was as close to straight allegory (Christian \nallegory) as Wolfe gets.\nAs for why the connection between Alfather and Michael, well I believe \nit has to do with the fact that in Germany the chapels to St. Michael \n(that is, the angel) were built over sites of worship to Woden.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8Ddanaz#Medieval_reception\n\nMichael consumed all the all nobel aspects of Woden (Odin, All-father). \nOr perhaps as Wolfe sees it, Michael is a *higher form* of Allfather.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-28T10:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F4C8E83.8070604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I should clarify that I didn't detect any overt Judeo-Christian\nelements (especially compared to other major Wolfe works) except Michael.\nBut, yes, as has been mentioned, the very concept of a Most High God is\nlifted straight from Old Testament scripture (and other ancient\nMesopotamian texts?). And yes, Michael's position to the Oden figure is\nsurely significant (symbolised by size-proportion to tingling effect, I\nthought). And yes, I was trying to say that I suspected Wolfe wove his\nCatholic worldview deeply into the fabric of Wizard-Knight through various\nmeans other than (what seems to me the mostly absent) way of direct\nallusion. I can't remember the ending of The Wizard, but the way The\nKnight ended seemed fairly Christian 'eternal reward'/'heaven'-ish (and\nagain probably subsuming other myths of afterlife).\n\nI guess I'm fairly shocked not to detect a eucharistic element, which\nusually seems central to Wolfe's epic works. But maybe that's the point?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 8:21 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nIIRC when things go to hell, the Most Low God turns and runs away. We see\nhis back, so we know he was lying about the worlds being circular. And\nsurely the Most Low God must always lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I didn't detect any Judeo-Christian element except for the (pretty\namazing) appearance of\nMichael the Archangel.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ending of The Wizard was as close to straight allegory (Christian\nallegory) as Wolfe gets.\nAs for why the connection between Alfather and Michael, well I believe it\nhas to do with the fact that in Germany the chapels to St. Michael (that\nis, the angel) were built over sites of worship to Woden.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8Ddanaz#Medieval_reception\n\nMichael consumed all the all nobel aspects of Woden (Odin, All-father). Or\nperhaps as Wolfe sees it, Michael is a *higher form* of Allfather.\n\nJ.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F4D0AE4.1090400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-28T17:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the end of The Wizard, Able feeds his blood to Disiri until she is \nraised to his level, from an Aelf (her true form being mud and sticks \nand leaves) to human. This is a very eucharistic theme, I think. A very \novertly Christian theme and IIRC some on this list considered it too \novert for their tastes.\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/28/2012 4:11 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nSorry, I should clarify that I didn't detect any overt Judeo-Christian \nelements (especially compared to other major Wolfe works) except \nMichael. But, yes, as has been mentioned, the very concept of a Most \nHigh God is lifted straight from Old Testament scripture (and other \nancient Mesopotamian texts?). And yes, Michael's position to the Oden \nfigure is surely significant (symbolised by size-proportion to \ntingling effect, I thought). And yes, I was trying to say that I \nsuspected Wolfe wove his Catholic worldview deeply into the fabric of \nWizard-Knight through various means other than (what seems to me the \nmostly absent) way of direct allusion. I can't remember the ending of \nThe Wizard, but the way The Knight ended seemed fairly Christian \n'eternal reward'/'heaven'-ish (and again probably subsuming other \nmyths of afterlife).\nI guess I'm fairly shocked not to detect a eucharistic element, which \nusually seems central to Wolfe's epic works. But maybe that's the point?\n-DOJP\nOn Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 8:21 AM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n IIRC when things go to hell, the Most Low God turns and runs away.\n We see his back, so we know he was lying about the worlds being\n circular. And surely the Most Low God must always lie.\n\n >\"I didn't detect any Judeo-Christian element except for the\n (pretty amazing) appearance of\n > Michael the Archangel.\"\n\n\n The ending of The Wizard was as close to straight allegory\n (Christian allegory) as Wolfe gets.\n As for why the connection between Alfather and Michael, well I\n believe it has to do with the fact that in Germany the chapels to\n St. Michael (that is, the angel) were built over sites of worship\n to Woden.\n http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8Ddanaz#Medieval_reception\n\n Michael consumed all the all nobel aspects of Woden (Odin,\n All-father). Or perhaps as Wolfe sees it, Michael is a *higher\n form* of Allfather.\n\n J.\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-02-28T17:47:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F4D0AE4.1090400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Thanks for pointing this out. To be honest, Wizard-Knight was what\ngot me properly into Wolfe and I hadn't yet really read the Solar Cycle and\nother works to see his themes and how they work. (I had actually read\n3/4ths of New Sun some years before, but was mostly baffled - both\nintrigued and fatigued.) I'm sure I'll see so much when I re-read\nWizard-Knight.\n\nIt's funny if some find that too overt. I often find Wolfe most poignant\nwhen most overt on Christian themes (perhaps especially Eucharistic ones).\nThey usually don't make me cringe at all but come across like a wise old\ndesert father or something. (I do share his Christian faith, but overt\nChristian themes in fiction can make me squirm more than anything else when\ndone poorly.) Then again, what I took to be some pretty obvious moments\n(e.g. wine and bread rituals coinciding with a theophany of the Outsider in\nShort Sun), some seem to perplexingly read as being mainly about\nreferencing Dionysus myths or what have you! So there ya go.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 5:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n At the end of The Wizard, Able feeds his blood to Disiri until she is\nraised to his level, from an Aelf (her true form being mud and sticks and\nleaves) to human. This is a very eucharistic theme, I think. A very overtly\nChristian theme and IIRC some on this list considered it too overt for\ntheir tastes.\nJ.\n\nOn 2/28/2012 4:11 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nSorry, I should clarify that I didn't detect any overt Judeo-Christian\nelements (especially compared to other major Wolfe works) except Michael.\nBut, yes, as has been mentioned, the very concept of a Most High God is\nlifted straight from Old Testament scripture (and other ancient\nMesopotamian texts?). And yes, Michael's position to the Oden figure is\nsurely significant (symbolised by size-proportion to tingling effect, I\nthought). And yes, I was trying to say that I suspected Wolfe wove his\nCatholic worldview deeply into the fabric of Wizard-Knight through various\nmeans other than (what seems to me the mostly absent) way of direct\nallusion. I can't remember the ending of The Wizard, but the way The\nKnight ended seemed fairly Christian 'eternal reward'/'heaven'-ish (and\nagain probably subsuming other myths of afterlife).\n\nI guess I'm fairly shocked not to detect a eucharistic element, which\nusually seems central to Wolfe's epic works. But maybe that's the point?\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-02-28T23:05:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F4D0AE4.1090400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, James Wynn wrote:\nAt the end of The Wizard, Able feeds his blood to Disiri until she is raised \nto his level, from an Aelf (her true form being mud and sticks and leaves) to \nhuman. This is a very eucharistic theme, I think. A very overtly Christian \ntheme and IIRC some on this list considered it too overt for their tastes.\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As in a witch suckling a familiar spirit? But in a nice way ;)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F503016.3040201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T02:27:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/28/2012 11:47 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nThen again, what I took to be some pretty obvious moments (e.g. wine \nand bread rituals coinciding with a theophany of the Outsider in Short \nSun), some seem to perplexingly read as being mainly about referencing \nDionysus myths or what have you! So there ya go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think \"mainly\" a good term. The bread and wine are overt \nreferences the Eucharist. The man on the scaffold and the \"fortunate man \nwho was enlightened and possessed by the Outsider is of course Jesus. \nSilk ultimately becomes a Christian in the same way that Pevensies \nbecome Christians by their relationship with Aslan. Slik is also a \nfigure of Aristaeus who was prophet of Dionysus. And C.S. Lewis (all of \nwhose works Wolfe claims to have read) draws an explicit connection \nbetween Christ and Dionysus. The Dionysian references are pretty overt \nas well, and the cross-over is intentional. This shouldn't be confusing. \nIf an author writes a story about a Christian founded on references to \nthe tale of the \"Three Little Pigs\", it would not be a surprise that, \nsay, the Church would take the form of a house made of bricks. That does \nnot mean that the house of bricks is \"mainly\" a reference to Practical \nPig's house.\n\n\"The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth \nof the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven \nof legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens — at a \nparticular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical \nconsequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows \nwhen or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) \nunder Pontius Pilate....By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: \nthat is the miracle.If God chooses to be mythopoeic?and is not the sky \nitself a myth shall we refuse to be mythopathic?\"\n~ CS Lewis\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T15:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F503016.3040201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, thanks for that, James. I'm not at all surprised to find Wolfe\nreferencing a 'pagan' myth and absorbing it into the 'myth' of Christ,\nwhich he as a Catholic would take to be more primary. It's one of my\nfavourite things he does in his fiction - and as you show, he's following\non from Lewis in this (you quoted one of my favourite passages from one of\nmy favourite essays by Lewis). I had just thought I'd seen some here\nmaking Dionysus the more primary allusion, but that could have been\ncareless reading and skimming on my part as I'm unfortunately unable to\ngive everything posted here a close read.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:27 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 2/28/2012 11:47 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then again, what I took to be some pretty obvious moments (e.g. wine and\nbread rituals coinciding with a theophany of the Outsider in Short Sun),\nsome seem to perplexingly read as being mainly about referencing Dionysus\nmyths or what have you! So there ya go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think \"mainly\" a good term. The bread and wine are overt\nreferences the Eucharist. The man on the scaffold and the \"fortunate man\nwho was enlightened and possessed by the Outsider is of course Jesus. Silk\nultimately becomes a Christian in the same way that Pevensies become\nChristians by their relationship with Aslan. Slik is also a figure of\nAristaeus who was prophet of Dionysus. And C.S. Lewis (all of whose works\nWolfe claims to have read) draws an explicit connection between Christ and\nDionysus. The Dionysian references are pretty overt as well, and the\ncross-over is intentional. This shouldn't be confusing. If an author writes\na story about a Christian founded on references to the tale of the \"Three\nLittle Pigs\", it would not be a surprise that, say, the Church would take\nthe form of a house made of bricks. That does not mean that the house of\nbricks is \"mainly\" a reference to Practical Pig's house.\n\n\"The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of\nthe Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of\nlegend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens — at a\nparticular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical\nconsequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when\nor where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under\nPontius Pilate....By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is\nthe miracle.If God chooses to be mythopoeic?and is not the sky itself a\nmyth shall we refuse to be mythopathic?\"\n~ CS Lewis\n\nJ.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F50F426.5030604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T16:24:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 9:05 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nI had just thought I'd seen some here making Dionysus the more primary \nallusion, but that could have been careless reading and skimming on my \npart as I'm unfortunately unable to give everything posted here a \nclose read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but I think that's fair. The reference to \"the son of Thyone\", to \n\"Silent Silk\" and \"Silver Silk\", the etymology of \"inhuma\" to Dionysus \n(as I believe), and the parallels to the story of Midas. He's riffing \nhard on Dionysus. I think it is as fair to view the Dionysus references \nin exclusion to everything else as it is examine the Jesus references in \nexclusion or to examine how Wolfe sees his myths legitimately conflated \nwith Jesus of Nazareth and what Wolfe is saying in bringing those \nparallels out. He's not doing just one thing. That's one the amazing \nthings about the Long/Short Sun story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T17:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F50F426.5030604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 9:05 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nI had just thought I'd seen some here making Dionysus the more primary \nallusion, but that could have been careless reading and skimming on my \npart as I'm unfortunately unable to give everything posted here a \nclose read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but I think that's fair. The reference to \"the son of Thyone\", to \n\"Silent Silk\" and \"Silver Silk\", the etymology of \"inhuma\" to Dionysus \n(as I believe), and the parallels to the story of Midas. He's riffing \nhard on Dionysus. I think it is as fair to view the Dionysus references \nin exclusion to everything else as it is examine the Jesus references in \nexclusion or to examine how Wolfe sees his myths legitimately conflated \nwith Jesus of Nazareth and what Wolfe is saying in bringing those \nparallels out. He's not doing just one thing. That's one the amazing \nthings about the Long/Short Sun story.\n\nIn fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the text. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables of the eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom was associated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in the text.\n\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching hard on Dionysus.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T17:04:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect the truth (slippery thing that it is) lies somewhere in\nbetween. Wolfe has a definite primary meaning in mind, in which the\nmeanings of Silent and Silver are as given in the book; but he has the\ntale of Dionysus in the back of his mind and is, if not riffing hard,\nat least playing on it. For all his seriousness, Wolfe is a very\nplayful writer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T17:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aye, Dan'l, Wolfe is undoubtedly ludic in his writing, not least in this\nmulti-level interplay of mythologies (pace Quinn).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect the truth (slippery thing that it is) lies somewhere in\nbetween. Wolfe has a definite primary meaning in mind, in which the\nmeanings of Silent and Silver are as given in the book; but he has the\ntale of Dionysus in the back of his mind and is, if not riffing hard,\nat least playing on it. For all his seriousness, Wolfe is a very\nplayful writer.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F511556.9030105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T18:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIn fact, \"Silent Silk\" and \"Silver Silk\" are clearly explained in the \ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some \nsyllables of the eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two \nfauns, one of whom was associated with Dionysus, and neither of whom \nis mentioned anywhere in the text.\nWolfe isn't \"riffing hard\" on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are \nstretching hard on Dionysus." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F51190B.9070809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:01:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F511556.9030105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun: \t\n\n 1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n 2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n know better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nLook up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the \ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some \nsyllables of the eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two \nfauns, one of whom was associated with Dionysus, and neither of whom \nis mentioned anywhere in the text.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are \nstretching hard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5119E5.4020307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F51190B.9070809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":-D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 1:01 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n know better.\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in \nthe text. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some \nsyllables of the eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two \nfauns, one of whom was associated with Dionysus, and neither of whom \nis mentioned anywhere in the text.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are \nstretching hard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F51190B.9070809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take it, Mr. Stockhoff, that you believe that \"Finnegans Wake\" and\nthe poetry of TS Eliot have no meaning whatsoever..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n? ? /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n? which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n? nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n? they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n? attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n? know better.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the\ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables of\nthe eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom was\nassociated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in the\ntext.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:15:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F51190B.9070809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well, hard-headed, certainly..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:01 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n know better.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the\ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables of\nthe eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom was\nassociated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in the\ntext.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F511F21.2060208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:27:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tried to use Finnegan's Wake as an instructional manual, but it never \ngot around to the instruction part so I quit reading it and watched \n/Pimp Your Ride/ instead. Now, that's poetry!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 2:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI take it, Mr. Stockhoff, that you believe that \"Finnegans Wake\" and\nthe poetry of TS Eliot have no meaning whatsoever...\n\nOn Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n know better.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the\ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables of\nthe eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom was\nassociated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in the\ntext.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:32:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F511F21.2060208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. You pulled my leg so hard it came off in your hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI tried to use Finnegan's Wake as an instructional manual, but it never got\naround to the instruction part so I quit reading it and watched /Pimp Your\nRide/ instead. Now, that's poetry!\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 2:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I take it, Mr. Stockhoff, that you believe that \"Finnegans Wake\" and\nthe poetry of TS Eliot have no meaning whatsoever...\n\nOn Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "? ? /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n? which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n? nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n? they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n? attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n? know better.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the\ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables\nof\nthe eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom\nwas\nassociated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in\nthe\ntext.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F51208E.2090800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-02T19:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/2/2012 2:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAh. You pulled my leg so hard it came off in your hands.\n\nOn Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tried to use Finnegan's Wake as an instructional manual, but it never got\naround to the instruction part so I quit reading it and watched /Pimp Your\nRide/ instead. Now, that's poetry!\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 2:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I take it, Mr. Stockhoff, that you believe that \"Finnegans Wake\" and\nthe poetry of TS Eliot have no meaning whatsoever...\n\nOn Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 11:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " /al lu?sion//??lo?oZH?n/\n\nNoun:\n\n1. Any reference not spelled out or mentioned concretely in a text but\n which inattentive and forgetful people insist on reading\n nevertheless, because they are so confused they forget what book\n they are reading and thus what book they are /not /reading.\n2. The practice of making arguments to such references, esp. as an\n attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of hard-headed realists who\n know better.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 3/2/2012 1:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Look up the term \"allusion\".\n\nOn 3/2/2012 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "In fact, “Silent Silk” and “Silver Silk” are clearly explained in the\ntext. The claimed association with Dionysus is based on some syllables\nof\nthe eponyms resembling syllables in the names of two fauns, one of whom\nwas\nassociated with Dionysus, and neither of whom is mentioned anywhere in\nthe\ntext.\nWolfe isn’t “riffing hard” on Dionysus, IMO. Some people are stretching\nhard on Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-05T21:19:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F51208E.2090800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: The reference to \"the son of Thyone\", to \"Silent Silk\" \nand \"Silver Silk\"..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor me the reference to Silenus and Silvanus is similar \nto the earlier \"Bird Of the Woods\" reference to Rhea Silvia. \nThe Latin name doesn't refer to a bird but I think we are supposed \nto catch the connection.\n \nLikewise the names of the goatmen demi-gods do not have a direct \nconnection in meaning to \"silent\" or \"silver\" but most I think most \nenglish speakers (native or not) can perceive the similarity of words. \nInteresting that Wolfe uses the Latin root for forest in both these \nexamples of english wordplay to allude to Roman mythology. Coincidence?\n \nI suppose few would connect the words \"silent\" and \"silver\" to alone to \nDionysus. But when you add references to Thyone and Janus, plus Pan and \nFauna and the Cumaean Sybil and a number of other associated mythological \nreferences and I think the connection becomes difficult to ignore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is as fair to view the Dionysus references in exclusion to \neverything else as it is examine the Jesus references in exclusion or to \nexamine how Wolfe sees his myths legitimately conflated with Jesus of \nNazareth and what Wolfe is saying in bringing those parallels out. He's \nnot doing just one thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOne of the few areas James and I tend to disagree upon. A good argument by\nJames. Perhaps it boils down to whether the Sun series takes place in our \nuniverse or in an alternate version sans Christ. I dunno. Perhaps Wolfe is \nspeaking to James and others in a Christian code I am not privy to. Or \nperhaps the need for Christ is so strong for some he must be inserted, even \nwhen His absence seems so apparent (to me). Must one be the \"right\" \ninterpretation?\n \nFor me, Wolfe has a horror element to his writing which is justified by the\nabsence of Christ. Be it space exploration without bringing Christianity\n(5HoC), the B.c. era (Soldier series) an alternate universe (Sun Series and\nWizard/Knight) or a personal deficiency (Peace, etc.) I see this absence as \nthe source of horror in the world and one of the primary bases for Wolfe's\nwriting.\n \np.s. I'm always intrigued by the reference to the Abraxas in BotNS. Bumped into\nthis gnostic reference today:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beausobre, in the History of Manicheism, enters into a long etymological \ndisquisition to prove that Abraxas is derived from the two Greek words, AbroV Saw; \nor, \"the magnificent Saviour, he who heals and preserves.\" AbroV is an epithet of \nthe Sun. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A93FB78B9E24FBAADB3161DAFEEAF20@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-05T21:45:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: The reference to \"the son of Thyone\", to \"Silent Silk\" \nand \"Silver Silk\"..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me the reference to Silenus and Silvanus is similar \nto the earlier \"Bird Of the Woods\" reference to Rhea Silvia. \nThe Latin name doesn't refer to a bird but I think we are supposed \nto catch the connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reference is clear, strong and inescapable because the whole of the name is there, and because it’s targeted at one specific person, and because it matches numerous elements in the same short section which clearly refer to Romulus and Remus. Also, IIRC, there is no other reason for her to be called Bird of the Woods. And the etymological connection is at least partial.\nBy contrast, the supposed reference of Silent and Silver Silk to Dionysus is based on just a few syllables, there is no etymological connection at all, the characters supposedly referenced are not Dionysus anyway, the section of the book is not devoted to Dionysus, and there’s a clear reason given for the epithets which has nothing to do with Dionysus. [More interesting, IMO, is whether they relate to something sinister rather than an aspect of Silk’s character: is Silk silent because he likes to watch his flock, or has he become a new version of gasping Piatus? I don’t think it is the latter, because I don’t see any other reason to suspect it.] \nThe two instances have little in common, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the few areas James and I tend to disagree upon. A good argument by\nJames. Perhaps it boils down to whether the Sun series takes place in our \nuniverse or in an alternate version sans Christ. I dunno. Perhaps Wolfe is \nspeaking to James and others in a Christian code I am not privy to. Or \nperhaps the need for Christ is so strong for some he must be inserted, even \nwhen His absence seems so apparent (to me). Must one be the \"right\" \ninterpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that He’s right there; for example in the clear Palm Sunday reference, and the co-opted Sign of Addition.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-05T21:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<0A93FB78B9E24FBAADB3161DAFEEAF20@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly the Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn: The reference to \"the son of Thyone\", to \"Silent Silk\"\nand \"Silver Silk\"..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me the reference to Silenus and Silvanus is similar\nto the earlier \"Bird Of the Woods\" reference to Rhea Silvia.\nThe Latin name doesn't refer to a bird but I think we are supposed\nto catch the connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That reference is clear, strong and inescapable because the whole of the\nname is there, and because it’s targeted at one specific person, and because\nit matches numerous elements in the same short section which clearly refer\nto Romulus and Remus. Also, IIRC, there is no other reason for her to be\ncalled Bird of the Woods. And the etymological connection is at least\npartial.\n\nBy contrast, the supposed reference of Silent and Silver Silk to Dionysus is\nbased on just a few syllables, there is no etymological connection at all,\nthe characters supposedly referenced are not Dionysus anyway, the section of\nthe book is not devoted to Dionysus, and there’s a clear reason given for\nthe epithets which has nothing to do with Dionysus. [More interesting, IMO,\nis whether they relate to something sinister rather than an aspect of Silk’s\ncharacter: is Silk silent because he likes to watch his flock, or has he\nbecome a new version of gasping Piatus? I don’t think it is the latter,\nbecause I don’t see any other reason to suspect it.]\n\nThe two instances have little in common, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the few areas James and I tend to disagree upon. A good argument by\nJames. — Perhaps it boils down to whether the Sun series takes place in\nour\nuniverse or in an alternate version sans Christ. I dunno. Perhaps Wolfe is\nspeaking to James and others in a Christian code I am not privy to. Or\nperhaps the need for Christ is so strong for some he must be inserted,\neven\nwhen His absence seems so apparent (to me). Must one be the \"right\"\ninterpretation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that He’s right there; for example in the clear Palm Sunday\nreference, and the co-opted Sign of Addition.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T03:01:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly the Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nPerhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more about who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and Christianity are \n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n \n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself. There are \n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the eucharist and \n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n \n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no christian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The Outsider. All these \n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means surviving. Moving \n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that \n\n \n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And perhaps the difference \n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new plane of existence.\n\n \n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe than our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a futuristic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has already appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an option. An option \n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T13:46:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I so\nenjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever\nallusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a\nworld rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their\nown interpretations and inferences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly\nthe Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it,\nthe references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself.\nThere are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the\neucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means\nsurviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament\nGod. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new\nplane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T14:35:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for\nWolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading\nfor those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers\ninto a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is,\nof course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and\nresonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective,\nright?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nPerhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I so\nenjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever\nallusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a\nworld rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their\nown interpretations and inferences.\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly\nthe Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it,\nthe references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ\nhimself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the\neucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means\nsurviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like\nthat\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament\nGod. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new\nplane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T14:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never know\nthe author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of\ncourse, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank\npostmodernism). [?] I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\" and\n\"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of fiction;\nespecially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code for \"this\npart of the text *means*\". It is one thing to trace allusions, and another\nto draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one universe or\nanother, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books, and that if\nwe didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't be\nmaking these conclusion. It is only because we know he *is* a devout\nCatholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the\npagan ones. And I *highly* doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a\nkey part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to bring to his\nworks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nAw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for\nWolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading\nfor those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers\ninto a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is,\nof course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and\nresonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective,\nright?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly\nthe Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see\nit, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ\nhimself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of\nthe eucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means\nsurviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like\nthat\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New\nTestament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new\nplane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<83FFC2AEB88C4D449E2873A006BC84CA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T15:21:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly the Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more about who we are\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and Christianity are \nboth there. So which is more important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What does “more important” mean here? They are both there and they both have their place. It’s like asking whether spaceships are more or less important to the story than planets.\nAllusions don’t mean much in themselves; they are pointers to a theme. It is the theme that is important, either for itself or for its place in the story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it, the references\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself. There are \nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the eucharist and \nsermons and confessions and so on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the trappings exist, presumably they have been co-opted by the state religion, but existed before that in their original form. The Sign of Addition appears to be an allusion to the Sign of the Cross. If so, in Silk’s universe there must at one time have been a cross that was central to events that people found noteworthy, no? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why do you think Wolfe put Jesus in? To confuse people? There was nothing that obliged him to put in the reference. Or if he really did want to say that Jesus in Silk’s universe was not Christ, he could have put some hint in here. (But then why does the Outsider show him to Silk?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no christian salvation" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "offered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The Outsider. All these \nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means surviving. Moving \nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is writing science fiction, set in the material universe. The material salvation reflects the more spiritual themes. What do you want, _The Last Battle_ with inhumi instead of Calormen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And perhaps the difference \nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament God. Moses led\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new plane of existence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was also big on parables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe than our own and I\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a futuristic gnostic\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has already appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an option. An option \nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He said he was thinking about cosmic cycles, and he does suggest that the Solar cycle takes place some time in such a series. It’s part of the story, in fact. It’s by no means obvious whether Urth exists in a past, future or current iteration. Indeed, either successive iterations are very similar, or it must be our own. And for that matter it does not seem all that much more horrible than ours, at least if we set aside some of the more baroque touches such as the alzabo, which is certainly a horrible monster but exists because Urth is a SF world rather than an especially horrible one. There are as many wonders as there are monsters. Urth’s entropic condition has historic reasons, and at the end it is cured, though not without catastrophic convulsions. \nI can see the interpretation you are proposing, and it is an interesting idea - but I don’t see where Wolfe has put in reasons for us to believe it. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93139629-CC27-476C-9A41-ABBAFF7F0BEB@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T15:37:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that trumps all others because you can always say even more about a good work of fiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and worse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria for better and worse.\n\nIt's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game, though. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into the context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key (as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact, it's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will always conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take \"orthodoxy\" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in interviews.)\n\nBut it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when reading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure. Could they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure. Could Severian and New Sun be an \"atheistic\" work which shows a world that Wolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other words, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his Catholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a transparent reflection of that.\n\nAfter all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he wouldn't need the doubly filtered \"lies\" of speculative fiction as a way to just out what he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it is all subjective, because we can never know the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank postmodernism). <349.gif> I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\" and \"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of fiction; especially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code for \"this part of the text means\". It is one thing to trace allusions, and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one universe or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books, and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we know he is a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the pagan ones. And I highly doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to bring to his works.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nAw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for Wolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading for those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers into a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is, of course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and resonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective, right?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more about who we are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I so enjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever allusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a world rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their own interpretations and inferences.\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly the Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more about who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and Christianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the eucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no christian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The Outsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means surviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And perhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new plane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe than our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a futuristic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has already appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an option. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T15:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<93139629-CC27-476C-9A41-ABBAFF7F0BEB@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships.\"\n\nI wish this were true!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that trumps\nall others because you can always say even more about a good work of\nfiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory\nof French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and\nworse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria\nfor better and worse.\n\nIt's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game,\nthough. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into\nthe context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key\n(as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact,\nit's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will\nalways conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take\n\"orthodoxy\" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in\ninterviews.)\n\nBut it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when\nreading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure.\nCould they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure.\nCould Severian and New Sun be an \"atheistic\" work which shows a world that\nWolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other\nwords, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his\nCatholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a\ntransparent reflection of that.\n\nAfter all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he wouldn't\nneed the doubly filtered \"lies\" of speculative fiction as a way to just out\nwhat he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does more.\n\n\nOn Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin \nwrote:\n\n\"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never know\nthe author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of\ncourse, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank\npostmodernism). <349.gif> I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\"\nand \"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of\nfiction; especially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code\nfor \"this part of the text *means*\". It is one thing to trace allusions,\nand another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one\nuniverse or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books,\nand that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we\nwouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we know he *is*a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than\nthe pagan ones. And I *highly* doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is\nCatholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to\nbring to his works.\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for\nWolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading\nfor those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers\ninto a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is,\nof course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and\nresonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective,\nright?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I\nso enjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever\nallusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a\nworld rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their\nown interpretations and inferences.\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly\nthe Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see\nit, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ\nhimself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of\nthe eucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means\nsurviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like\nthat\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New\nTestament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely\nnew plane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T15:59:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships.\"\n\nI think we have the Post of the Day!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\n\"New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships.\"\n\nI wish this were true!\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that\ntrumps all others because you can always say even more about a good work of\nfiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory\nof French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and\nworse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria\nfor better and worse.\n\nIt's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game,\nthough. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into\nthe context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key\n(as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact,\nit's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will\nalways conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take\n\"orthodoxy\" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in\ninterviews.)\n\nBut it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when\nreading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure.\nCould they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure.\nCould Severian and New Sun be an \"atheistic\" work which shows a world that\nWolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other\nwords, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his\nCatholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a\ntransparent reflection of that.\n\nAfter all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he\nwouldn't need the doubly filtered \"lies\" of speculative fiction as a way to\njust out what he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does\nmore.\n\n\nOn Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin \nwrote:\n\n \"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never\nknow the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of\ncourse, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank\npostmodernism). <349.gif> I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\"\nand \"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of\nfiction; especially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code\nfor \"this part of the text *means*\". It is one thing to trace\nallusions, and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having\nbeen in one universe or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into\nthe books, and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a\nCatholic, we wouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we\nknow he *is* a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the\nChristian allusions than the pagan ones. And I *highly* doubt the\nknowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis\ntoolkit\" he wants us to bring to his works.\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for\nWolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading\nfor those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers\ninto a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is,\nof course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and\nresonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective,\nright?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I\nso enjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever\nallusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a\nworld rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their\nown interpretations and inferences.\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but\nclearly the Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see\nit, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ\nhimself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of\nthe eucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation\nmeans surviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like\nthat\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New\nTestament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely\nnew plane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T16:51:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<93139629-CC27-476C-9A41-ABBAFF7F0BEB@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't\nbe making these conclusion. It is only because we know he is a devout\nCatholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the\npagan ones. *\n\nNaw, I *definitely* would've seen it in spades before I knew his personal\nbeliefs.\n\n*Could Severian and New Sun be an \"atheistic\" work which shows a world that\nWolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. *\n\nYes, but that would still not be an 'atheistic' work in the final sense -\nit would be intending to mitigate against atheism, to slyly subvert it - in\nwhich case it would be decidedly theistic work. This is in fact a lot of\nwhat Wolfe does, I think. 'Imagine a world with no God, no Christ: not so\nnice.' But he doesn't seem able to leave it at this. Into that same world\nhe also says: 'Ok, enough of that, now imagine God and Christ\ntheo-comedically showing up anyway, deviously agitating for redemption in\nthe midst of this dystopia or diaspora.'\n\nI couldn't agree more about Wolfe being a fiction writer, not a polemicist.\n But, as you note, there are better, worse, and 'epic fail'\ninterpretations. And that the (essentially) orthodox Christ is meant to\n'triumph' (even if, paradoxically, only by his absence at times) is clear\nto me FROM THE TEXTS, not from our knowledge that Wolfe is a Catholic (that\nto me, is simply what clinches the view, pushes it over the finish line).\n\nThat's what I mean by saying 'come on, guys' you're not really, genuinely\nin doubt as to the texts' own 'allusive hierarchy' in terms of what's\n'primary' and 'secondary' to *carrying forward the artistic telos* of the\nworks.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that trumps\nall others because you can always say even more about a good work of\nfiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory\nof French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and\nworse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria\nfor better and worse.\n\nIt's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game,\nthough. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into\nthe context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key\n(as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact,\nit's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will\nalways conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take\n\"orthodoxy\" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in\ninterviews.)\n\nBut it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when\nreading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure.\nCould they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure.\nCould Severian and New Sun be an \"atheistic\" work which shows a world that\nWolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other\nwords, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his\nCatholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a\ntransparent reflection of that.\n\nAfter all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he wouldn't\nneed the doubly filtered \"lies\" of speculative fiction as a way to just out\nwhat he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does more.\n\n\nOn Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin \nwrote:\n\n\"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never know\nthe author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of\ncourse, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank\npostmodernism). <349.gif> I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\"\nand \"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of\nfiction; especially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code\nfor \"this part of the text *means*\". It is one thing to trace allusions,\nand another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one\nuniverse or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books,\nand that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we\nwouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we know he *is*a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than\nthe pagan ones. And I *highly* doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is\nCatholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to\nbring to his works.\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for\nWolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading\nfor those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers\ninto a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is,\nof course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and\nresonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective,\nright?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "than what is clear in the books.\n\nCouldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I\nso enjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever\nallusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a\nworld rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their\nown interpretations and inferences.\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly\nthe Christian\nallusions are primary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as \"primary\" might say more\nabout who we are\n\nthan what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and\nChristianity are\n\nboth there. So which is more important?\n\n\n\nThe pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see\nit, the references\n\nto Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ\nhimself. There are\n\nroods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of\nthe eucharist and\n\nsermons and confessions and so on.\n\n\n\nThere is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no\nchristian salvation\n\noffered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The\nOutsider. All these\n\nguys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means\nsurviving. Moving\n\nto a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like\nthat\n\n\n\nAnd that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And\nperhaps the difference\n\nbetween the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New\nTestament God. Moses led\n\nthe chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely\nnew plane of existence.\n\n\n\nWolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe\nthan our own and I\n\nthink this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a\nfuturistic gnostic\n\nmonster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has\nalready appeared.\nOnce Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an\noption. An option\n\nseemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T18:33:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to \nknow which is 'primary' for Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. The funny thing is that I would tend to agree with you \nif your position was that pagan/gnostic religious references\nwere primary in the Sun Series. That is what seems obvious to\nme. There are so many of them and so few Christian references.\nDo we need to do a list/count to corroborate this?\n \nOn the other hand, I could see how quality might trump quantity\nfor a Christian reader reading a Christian author. One \"sign of\naddition\" could outshine a hundred Typhons and Tzadkiels and\nSphigxs and Scyllas and Echidnas and Thyones and Thelxiepeias.\nPerhaps such a secret, Christian insider code is what Wolfe was \ngoing for. I dunno. I've spent a lot of time reading Wolfe \ninterviews about his work and I get a different impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So why do you think Wolfe put Jesus in? To confuse \npeople? There was nothing that obliged him to put in the reference. \nOr if he really did want to say that Jesus in Silk’s universe was \nnot Christ, he could have put some hint in here. (But then why does \nthe Outsider show him to Silk?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't find it confusing. The biggest hint I find is that The Outsider\nis a dark god. Darkness defines Him. I assume Jesus in that universe was\na dark, Outsider prophet, like Severian. Thus both were shown to Silk.\n \nThere is a similarity of the Outsider to Dionysus/Great God Pan/Green Man, \nwho is a dark pagan god in our universe in contrast to the light of the \nChristian God and saviour." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Wolfe] said he was thinking about cosmic cycles, and he does suggest that the \nSolar cycle takes place some time in such a series. It’s part of the \nstory, in fact. It’s by no means obvious whether Urth exists in a past, \nfuture or current iteration. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is not fully clear in the story. But Wolfe makes it explicitly clear in \ninterviews: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe?..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating \nrather than something that we are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWe hear Gene Wolfe's own voice on that video interview say that the universe of \nWizard/Knight is not a Christian universe. He is similarly explicit about a Christ-\nabsence in There Are Doors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: This is the Christian world. That world is not the Christian world. That world \nis kind of a warmed-over pagan world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see this as a theme across much of Wolfe's work. The importance of Christ and the\nLight is demonstrated by creating dark worlds and universes without Him. That such\nplaces resemble pre-Christian earth is no surprise.\n \nI don't insist that every reader must see it this way. But I find it a pretty valid\nviewpoint supported by a lot more evidence than, say French wine tasting ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T18:41:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n... much that I agree with, actually. There is a great deal of\nnon-Christian allusion in most/all of Wolfe's major work, and often it\nis more obvious than the Christian allusions.\n\nBut I hold that Wolfe's major method is to create a non-Christian\nreality and embed it into a larger reality that is Christian -- as it\nwere, other realities created by the One God. This is probably\nclearest in the Wizard/Knight duo, where the Aesir-analogues are\nsubservient to the angels, i.e., Michael, who are in turn subservient\nto the Most High God, i.e., the Christian God." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T18:46:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Lee, the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and oblique\nChristian references that are completely outnumbered and\nout-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan'\noverlords. It's genius, even if one doesn't agree with him. And he's a\ngenerous storyteller, not a cranky crank trying to condemn everyone. He\ngraciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to\nknow which is 'primary' for Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. The funny thing is that I would tend to agree with you\nif your position was that pagan/gnostic religious references\nwere primary in the Sun Series. That is what seems obvious to\nme. There are so many of them and so few Christian references.\nDo we need to do a list/count to corroborate this?\n\nOn the other hand, I could see how quality might trump quantity\nfor a Christian reader reading a Christian author. One \"sign of\naddition\" could outshine a hundred Typhons and Tzadkiels and\nSphigxs and Scyllas and Echidnas and Thyones and Thelxiepeias.\nPerhaps such a secret, Christian insider code is what Wolfe was\ngoing for. I dunno. I've spent a lot of time reading Wolfe\ninterviews about his work and I get a different impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So why do you think Wolfe put Jesus in? To confuse\npeople? There was nothing that obliged him to put in the reference.\nOr if he really did want to say that Jesus in Silk’s universe was\nnot Christ, he could have put some hint in here. (But then why does\nthe Outsider show him to Silk?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find it confusing. The biggest hint I find is that The Outsider\nis a dark god. Darkness defines Him. I assume Jesus in that universe was\na dark, Outsider prophet, like Severian. Thus both were shown to Silk.\n\nThere is a similarity of the Outsider to Dionysus/Great God Pan/Green Man,\nwho is a dark pagan god in our universe in contrast to the light of the\nChristian God and saviour." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Wolfe] said he was thinking about cosmic cycles, and he does suggest\nthat the\nSolar cycle takes place some time in such a series. It’s part of the\nstory, in fact. It’s by no means obvious whether Urth exists in a past,\nfuture or current iteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not fully clear in the story. But Wolfe makes it explicitly clear in\ninterviews:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our\nuniverse?..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating\nrather than something that we are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We hear Gene Wolfe's own voice on that video interview say that the\nuniverse of\nWizard/Knight is not a Christian universe. He is similarly explicit about\na Christ-\nabsence in There Are Doors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: This is the Christian world. That world is not the Christian world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That world\nis kind of a warmed-over pagan world.\n\nI see this as a theme across much of Wolfe's work. The importance of\nChrist and the\nLight is demonstrated by creating dark worlds and universes without Him.\n That such\nplaces resemble pre-Christian earth is no surprise.\n\nI don't insist that every reader must see it this way. But I find it a\npretty valid\nviewpoint supported by a lot more evidence than, say French wine tasting\n;- ).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331060645.27455.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T19:04:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/6/12, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 6:46 AM\n\n\". And I highly doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to bring to his works.\n\nActually, I think the eucharist in Short Sun is meant to be taken literally ... vegetable grapes become somehow human blood ... but so too is the final summoning of the hyacinth flower meant to be taken literally - human blood become vegetable matter. \n\nSo I tend to view the rituals of Catholicism as somehow literally applicable to the work ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331061147.71479.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T19:12:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 10:46 AM\n\n\nYeah, Lee, the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and oblique Christian references that are completely outnumbered and out-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan' overlords. ?It's genius, even if one doesn't agree with him. ?And he's a generous storyteller, not a cranky crank trying to condemn everyone. ?He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's revolution, exodus, and new frontier.\n\n\n-DOJP\n\nI would also want to state that I think the intention of Wolfe in There are Doors was very different than the Sun stories: the sex goddess/death of males after mating is simply not the dominant paradigm in the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, but they are ultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual mindset (Kypris, etc)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7976BBFDFA0640DCB5A5709A8E9E2288@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T19:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 6:33 PM\nOn the other hand, I could see how quality might trump quantity\nfor a Christian reader reading a Christian author. One \"sign of\naddition\" could outshine a hundred Typhons and Tzadkiels and\nSphigxs and Scyllas and Echidnas and Thyones and Thelxiepeias." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don’t confuse the names with the significance. The monarch named Typhon is *not* the ancient monster Typhon. Only Thyone on that list above is the same Thyone.\nWhereas if the “Sign of Addition” comes from the Cross it is more than a name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So why do you think Wolfe put Jesus in? To confuse \npeople? There was nothing that obliged him to put in the reference. \nOr if he really did want to say that Jesus in Silk’s universe was \nnot Christ, he could have put some hint in here. (But then why does \nthe Outsider show him to Silk?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find it confusing. The biggest hint I find is that The Outsider\nis a dark god. Darkness defines Him. I assume Jesus in that universe was\na dark, Outsider prophet, like Severian. Thus both were shown to Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIs the Outsider described as dark in the universe in general — or just in the sub-universe known as the Whorl?\nIt’s dark outside the Whorl (though when Wolfe describes space he never fails to mention light as well, coming from the stars, and once from the sun of Blue/Green). But in the literal exodus, it is into this very darkness that they must flee in order to survive. The significance of darkness in this story from the Whorl is very different from the significance of darkness in stories from our world.\nI’ve noted before how the descriptions of the Outsider in the three lists of characters in Long Sun seem to match the Trinity quite well.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T19:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331061147.71479.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, but they are\nultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual\nmindset (Kypris, etc)\n\n\nExcept, except, except.... Marble! Mint! Nettle! Olivine! (And the\nskull-faced gal whose name escapes me - and I'm sure there are others.)\n Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine - there are beautifully (and sometimes\ntragically so) women characters who are NOT simply sex-power beings in Long\nand Short Sun at least, and I always hate to see them get overlooked in\nlight of the perhaps more obvious cases like the kind you cite. (New Sun\ndoes maybe look more unalleviated in portraying women this way.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 10:46 AM\n\nYeah, Lee, the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and oblique\nChristian references that are completely outnumbered and\nout-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan'\noverlords. It's genius, even if one doesn't agree with him. And he's a\ngenerous storyteller, not a cranky crank trying to condemn everyone. He\ngraciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nI would also want to state that I think the intention of Wolfe in There\nare Doors was very different than the Sun stories: the sex goddess/death of\nmales after mating is simply not the dominant paradigm in the Sun Cycle,\nwhere we may see female beings of power, but they are ultimately trumped\nand always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual mindset (Kypris, etc)\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T20:10:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: But I hold that Wolfe's major method is to create \na non-Christian reality and embed it into a larger reality that is \nChristian -- as it were, other realities created by the One God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I tend to agree. I think \"The Increate\" mentioned in the Sun Series\ndoes represent the one true God. However I think \"The Pancreator\" and\n\"The Demiurge\" represent something different. Something lesser, darker and\nmore materialistic than the one true God. Something similar to what was\nruling the earth before Christ and had created such a nasty world full of\nmonsters and demigods and demons. These horrors (be they real or allegory\nfor our sins) represent what Christ saved us from, giving us the choice of\nsalvation. Previous to Christ they (as on pre-flood Urth) were too powerful\nfor humanity to resist.\n \nMy view is that with Urth, Wolfe created a world where Christ never appeared,\nwhere all the ancient gods and horrors remained in control. A \"what if\" \nthought experiment. And you are right. In Wizard/Knight the Christian world is\nnot inaccessible. There is a passageway, so we have a more direct contrast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and oblique\nChristian references that are completely outnumbered and\nout-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan'\noverlords." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat sounds good but it just isn't what I am seeing in the Sun Series. BotNS\nends with the worship of a pantheon of gods based on normal people from the past,\nwith demonic fish women still lurking around. And Short Sun ends with \nswarms of inhumi threatening the future of humanity. I am left with the feeling\nthey are in need of something more to attain the higher level of spirituality \nthat we (Christians) have here on earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am confused. Are you saying The Outsider is our Christian God and Silk is the \nsecond (or tenth or whatever) coming of Jesus? If not, we might be in agreement.\n \nI think The Increate in the Sun Series is our Christian God. Is The Outsider \nactually The Increate? I don't find that likely. The Increate is too impossibly\ndistant from humanity to directly interact while The Outsider gets right into\nour business on a personal level. (more like the Old Testament God)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the intention of Wolfe in There are Doors was very different\nthan the Sun stories: the sex goddess/death of males after mating is simply not \nthe dominant paradigm in the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, \nbut they are ultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual \nmindset (Kypris, etc)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe specifics may be different but I think the intent is the same- Wolfe's purpose \nwas to show the result of having unworthy pagan gods (like Aphrodite or Abaia or \nTyphon) still being worshipped because Christ never appeared to show humanity the \ntrue God. Though not God, these beings were real and might have had superhuman powers. \nWolfe himself says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: Laura is my idea of what a pagan goddess might be who survived into the Christian \nworld. One of the places where I probably split off from conventional Catholic thinking \nis that I believe that the gods of paganism were real. I don't think that they are \nentitled to the worship that they received from the pagans. I think what many of the \nbiblical writers are saying is, \"Yes, these are real powers, but it is wrong for you \nto give to them the honors that are due to God alone.\" And I think that that is exactly \ncorrect. Now, if Aphrodite were to survive into the contemporary world, what would she \nbe like? Well, Laura was a shot at trying to show what she might be like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Don’t confuse the names with the significance. The monarch named Typhon is \n*not* the ancient monster Typhon. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou don't know that. The monarach could have been the source of our Typhon myth, in the\nmanner described by Dr. Talos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only Thyone on that list above is the same Thyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou don't know that either. You have no basis for making such flat statements of fact \nregarding fiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whereas if the “Sign of Addition” comes from the Cross it is more than a name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is good you use the word \"if\" here. The swastika has Hindu origins and is sometimes\ncalled \"the twisted cross\". This does not mean the swastika must be considered only\na Hindu or Christian symbol.\n \nAs I see it, the \"sign of addition\" is this: +. This is not a Christian cross but,\nlike a swastika or gammadion, a distorted version of the Cross which has a longer\nvertical bar than horizontal bar.\n \nFor me this demonstrate's Wolfe's intention to depict the religion and the gods of the\nSun Series as distortions of our Christianity, not the real thing. As previously mentioned\nin this story, only The Increate (who is not The Outsider) seems to fall into a definition \nwhich is aligned with our own God.\n \n \n \n \n\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T20:34:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWell, I tend to agree. I think \"The Increate\" mentioned in the Sun Series\ndoes represent the one true God. However I think \"The Pancreator\" and\n\"The Demiurge\" represent something different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed; these are standard Gnostic terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My view is that with Urth, Wolfe created a world where Christ never\nappeared, where all the ancient gods and horrors remained in control." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting idea, and I like it. It has great explanatory power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That sounds good but it just isn't what I am seeing in the Sun Series. BotNS\nends with the worship of a pantheon of gods based on normal people from\nthe past, with demonic fish women still lurking around. ?And Short Sun ends\nwith swarms of inhumi threatening the future of humanity. I am left with the\nfeeling they are in need of something more to attain the higher level of\nspirituality that we (Christians) have here on earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Yet..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am confused. Are you saying The Outsider is our Christian God and Silk is\nthe second (or tenth or whatever) coming of Jesus? If not, we might be in\nagreement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't speak for anyone else, but I do believe that the Outsider is\n\"our Christian God.\" But Silk is _NOT_ the nth coming of Jesus, nor is\nhe in any way analogous to Jesus; he is, as Wolfe put it, \"a good man\nin a bad religion.\" (H'mmm. Might be a good name for a bad band in\nthere.) When Silk is \"enlightened,\" he becomes, not a Messiah, but a\nprophet -- he is more analogous to Moses than to Jesus.\n\nI realize that there is no way to convince you that the Outsider is\nthe Christian God, but I believe that the Increate is at work\nthroughout the Solar cycle, that, as the Bible says, He wills that all\nbe saved and that He would not abandon an entire Creation to perdition\n-- and I believe that Wolfe would believe this also. Thus, he sets up\nthe interesting thought-experiment you posit, but then he also asks,\n\"How would God react to this...?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T20:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and\noblique\nChristian references that are completely outnumbered and\nout-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan'\noverlords." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That sounds good but it just isn't what I am seeing in the Sun Series. BotNS\nends with the worship of a pantheon of gods based on normal people from the\npast,\nwith demonic fish women still lurking around. And Short Sun ends with\nswarms of inhumi threatening the future of humanity. I am left with the\nfeeling\nthey are in need of something more to attain the higher level of\nspirituality\nthat we (Christians) have here on earth.\n\nRight, I should be more clear. The *trajectory* of the Christian elements\nwoven centrally (if obliquely and 'humbly') through Wolfe's Solar\nCycle*points toward\n* this subversion of the oppression of non-Christian systems (and, indeed, *\nfulfillment* of all that's good in them). In my opinion, Wolfe's works are\nnot at all about endings in terms of where a tetralogy or trilogy actually\nnarratively ends. The End (the Eschaton) is always breaking up in the\nmidst of the narratives and pointing beyond the whole narrative thread to a\nfurther True Ending (True Telos, Goal, Aim) - per New Testament eschatology\n(often phrased as 'the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God'). That is again\nthe genius of Wolfe's art. It points to 'Final Morning' but no particular\nnarrative ever arrives there, reflecting (one would think) Wolfe's view of\nour present lives - we yearn and hope toward Eschaton but do not arrive in\nthis life. That's why Wolfe is hopeful, but NOT utopian (something I see\nconsistently in all the Christian writers from Lewis and Tolkien and\nChesterton to Lafferty and Wolfe - non-fantasists could also be included,\ne.g. Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, Muriel Spark, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am confused. Are you saying The Outsider is our Christian God and Silk is\nthe\nsecond (or tenth or whatever) coming of Jesus? If not, we might be in\nagreement.\n\nI think The Increate in the Sun Series is our Christian God. Is The Outsider\nactually The Increate? I don't find that likely. The Increate is too\nimpossibly\ndistant from humanity to directly interact while The Outsider gets right\ninto\nour business on a personal level. (more like the Old Testament God)\n\nI completely do not follow your theology there, Lee. The Outsider is *\ntotally* like the 'God of the Bible' (OT and NT) in my opinion: both\ntranscendent and immanent, eternal yet near, incomprehensible yet\nrevelatory. And, of course, none of these* characters in a book* (be they\nDeity or human or otherwise) are anything at all in our real world. They\nsimply point (sometimes powerfully) to realities in the non-Gene-Wolfe-book\nworld (or, at least, what some, like Wolfe, take to be realities). (Oh,\nand for the record, I don't take Silk or Severian or any other character in\nWolfe's works to be Christ - even symbolically or allegorically. They\nare*Christ-like\n* but fallen human figures, akin to Ransom in Lewis's Space Trilogy - not\nakin to Aslan in Narnia.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: But I hold that Wolfe's major method is to create\na non-Christian reality and embed it into a larger reality that is\nChristian -- as it were, other realities created by the One God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I tend to agree. I think \"The Increate\" mentioned in the Sun Series\ndoes represent the one true God. However I think \"The Pancreator\" and\n\"The Demiurge\" represent something different. Something lesser, darker and\nmore materialistic than the one true God. Something similar to what was\nruling the earth before Christ and had created such a nasty world full of\nmonsters and demigods and demons. These horrors (be they real or allegory\nfor our sins) represent what Christ saved us from, giving us the choice of\nsalvation. Previous to Christ they (as on pre-flood Urth) were too powerful\nfor humanity to resist.\n\nMy view is that with Urth, Wolfe created a world where Christ never\nappeared,\nwhere all the ancient gods and horrors remained in control. A \"what if\"\nthought experiment. And you are right. In Wizard/Knight the Christian\nworld is\nnot inaccessible. There is a passageway, so we have a more direct\ncontrast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and\noblique\nChristian references that are completely outnumbered and\nout-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan'\noverlords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That sounds good but it just isn't what I am seeing in the Sun Series.\nBotNS\nends with the worship of a pantheon of gods based on normal people from\nthe past,\nwith demonic fish women still lurking around. And Short Sun ends with\nswarms of inhumi threatening the future of humanity. I am left with the\nfeeling\nthey are in need of something more to attain the higher level of\nspirituality\nthat we (Christians) have here on earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's\nrevolution, exodus, and new frontier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am confused. Are you saying The Outsider is our Christian God and Silk\nis the\nsecond (or tenth or whatever) coming of Jesus? If not, we might be in\nagreement.\n\nI think The Increate in the Sun Series is our Christian God. Is The\nOutsider\nactually The Increate? I don't find that likely. The Increate is too\nimpossibly\ndistant from humanity to directly interact while The Outsider gets right\ninto\nour business on a personal level. (more like the Old Testament God)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the intention of Wolfe in There are Doors was very\ndifferent\nthan the Sun stories: the sex goddess/death of males after mating is\nsimply not\nthe dominant paradigm in the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of\npower,\nbut they are ultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a\nprimarily sexual\nmindset (Kypris, etc)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The specifics may be different but I think the intent is the same- Wolfe's\npurpose\nwas to show the result of having unworthy pagan gods (like Aphrodite or\nAbaia or\nTyphon) still being worshipped because Christ never appeared to show\nhumanity the\ntrue God. Though not God, these beings were real and might have had\nsuperhuman powers.\nWolfe himself says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: Laura is my idea of what a pagan goddess might be who survived into\nthe Christian\nworld. One of the places where I probably split off from conventional\nCatholic thinking\nis that I believe that the gods of paganism were real. I don't think that\nthey are\nentitled to the worship that they received from the pagans. I think what\nmany of the\nbiblical writers are saying is, \"Yes, these are real powers, but it is\nwrong for you\nto give to them the honors that are due to God alone.\" And I think that\nthat is exactly\ncorrect. Now, if Aphrodite were to survive into the contemporary world,\nwhat would she\nbe like? Well, Laura was a shot at trying to show what she might be like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Don’t confuse the names with the significance. The monarch\nnamed Typhon is\n*not* the ancient monster Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't know that. The monarach could have been the source of our Typhon\nmyth, in the\nmanner described by Dr. Talos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only Thyone on that list above is the same Thyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't know that either. You have no basis for making such flat\nstatements of fact\nregarding fiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas if the “Sign of Addition” comes from the Cross it is more than a\nname." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is good you use the word \"if\" here. The swastika has Hindu origins and\nis sometimes\ncalled \"the twisted cross\". This does not mean the swastika must be\nconsidered only\na Hindu or Christian symbol.\n\nAs I see it, the \"sign of addition\" is this: +. This is not a Christian\ncross but,\nlike a swastika or gammadion, a distorted version of the Cross which has a\nlonger\nvertical bar than horizontal bar.\n\nFor me this demonstrate's Wolfe's intention to depict the religion and the\ngods of the\nSun Series as distortions of our Christianity, not the real thing. As\npreviously mentioned\nin this story, only The Increate (who is not The Outsider) seems to fall\ninto a definition\nwhich is aligned with our own God.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331069813.3008.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T21:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel, I meant women of power as \"goddesses\" or beings of worship (apheta, Kypris, Laura, Disiri, etc) not all female characters. However, perhaps Scylla and Sphigx count and are not sexualized. It seems to me that Marble, Nettle, Olivine are diffent than Kypris et al.\n\n--- On Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 11:41 AM\n\n\nin the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, but they are ultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual mindset (Kypris, etc)\n\n\nExcept, except, except.... Marble! Mint! Nettle! Olivine! ?(And the skull-faced gal whose name escapes me - and I'm sure there are others.) ?Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine - there are beautifully (and sometimes tragically so) women characters who are NOT simply sex-power beings in Long and Short Sun at least, and I always hate to see them get overlooked in light of the perhaps more obvious cases like the kind you cite. ?(New Sun does maybe look more unalleviated in portraying women this way.)\n\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 10:46 AM\n\n\nYeah, Lee, the whole point in Wolfe is for there to be few and oblique Christian references that are completely outnumbered and out-everything-elsed that still end up subverting the hordes of 'pagan' overlords. ?It's genius, even if one doesn't agree with him. ?And he's a generous storyteller, not a cranky crank trying to condemn everyone. ?He graciously invites readers to hear the Outsider and be part of Silk's revolution, exodus, and new frontier. \n\n\n-DOJP\n\nI would also want to state that I think the intention of Wolfe in There are Doors was very different than the Sun stories: the sex goddess/death of males after mating is simply not the dominant paradigm in the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, but they are ultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual mindset (Kypris, etc)\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T21:57:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331069813.3008.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I'm trying to remember if* any* god or goddess comes out well in that\nseries..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nDaniel, I meant women of power as \"goddesses\" or beings of worship\n(apheta, Kypris, Laura, Disiri, etc) not all female characters. However,\nperhaps Scylla and Sphigx count and are not sexualized. It seems to me\nthat Marble, Nettle, Olivine are diffent than Kypris et al.\n\n--- On *Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 11:41 AM\n\nin the Sun Cycle, where we may see female beings of power, but they are\nultimately trumped and always seem to be stuck in a primarily sexual\nmindset (Kypris, etc)\n\n\nExcept, except, except.... Marble! Mint! Nettle! Olivine! (And the\nskull-faced gal whose name escapes me - and I'm sure there are others.)\n Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine - there are beautifully (and sometimes\ntragically so) women characters who are NOT simply sex-power beings in Long\nand Short Sun at least, and I always hate to see them get overlooked in\nlight of the perhaps more obvious cases like the kind you cite. (New Sun\ndoes maybe look more unalleviated in portraying women this way.)\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:\n\n\n\n--- On *Tue, 3/6/12, Daniel Petersen \n* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) The Wizard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331072211.16349.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T22:16:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<7976BBFDFA0640DCB5A5709A8E9E2288@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Lee Berman \nSent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 6:33 PM" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find it confusing. The biggest hint I find is that The Outsider\nis a dark god. Darkness defines Him. I assume Jesus in that universe was\na dark, Outsider prophet, like Severian. Thus both were shown to Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the Outsider described as dark in the universe in general — or just in the sub-universe known as the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or just from the point of view of characters in the Whorl, who associate him with space?\n\nFor that matter, could someone remind me of where the Outsider is described as a dark god? I found the point at the end of /Nightside/ where Silk wonders whether the Outsider might be \"good in a dark way\", as Auk might become, but in that scene Silk is confused. For instance, he's just wondered whether Mucor drank Teasel's blood. I don't think we need to take his wonderings there as \"gospel\". Is there another point where the Outsider is specifically called that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It’s dark outside the Whorl (though when Wolfe describes space he never fails to mention light as well, coming from the stars, and once from the sun of Blue/Green). But in the literal exodus, it is into this very darkness that they must flee in order to survive. The significance of darkness in this story from the Whorl is very different from the significance of darkness in stories from our world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view that God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and condemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who created space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark way.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T22:20:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331072211.16349.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view\nthat God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and\ncondemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will\ncorrect me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who\ncreated space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No correction from me. C.S. Lewis put it very succinctly: \"Aslan is\nnot a _tame_ lion.\" God is good but he isn't _nice_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T23:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, I think you guys may be getting a little confused here. The Christian\nGod is Good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way because he is HOLY. There is\nno 'nastiness' or 'meanness' in the Christian conception of God. He\ndoesn't delight in the death of the wicked as the prophet Ezekiel puts it.\n In that sense 'in him there is no darkness at all' as 1 John chapter 1\nputs it. Tread carefully here if you want to speak coherently about\northodox theology. Not for sensibilities but for accuracy. Pure goodness\nis nothing we've ever truly seen in fullness and the eternal Triune Love\n(as Christian theology would have it) is a degree of communion and\nself-giving glory we just cannot imagine ('he dwells in unapproachable\nlight' as Paul put it). Thus this kind of transcendent goodness can be\ndownright terrifying to people enmeshed in spiritual darkness and sin\n(again from the Christian story). That is what it means for God not to be\n'safe' or 'tame'. God's wildness is a terror to evil, not a participant in\nit.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view\nthat God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and\ncondemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will\ncorrect me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who\ncreated space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark\nway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No correction from me. C.S. Lewis put it very succinctly: \"Aslan is\nnot a _tame_ lion.\" God is good but he isn't _nice_.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T23:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding Kypris: I think within the _Sun_ cycle we see her\ntranscending her background as a mainly sexual figure, and becoming a\ngenuine love-goddess. (Remember that Mint is inspired by Kypris,\napparently with love of the city.) And yes, Scylla and Echidna aren't\nparticularly sexual figures, though they also aren't nice people.\n\nRegarding the general theological set-up: while the Christian\nreferences in _Long Sun/Short Sun_ are relatively few, they are almost\nall linked with the Outsider; and in connection with him there are a\nlot of them. (Off the top of my head: the sign of addition, the\nbeating of the traders in sacrificial animals, Silk's vision of a man\nriding through a city - possibly also the child in straw and the man\non the scaffold, but they are less explicit - the Adam and Eve story -\nsince we are told in the glossary that Ah-Lah is possibly the same as\nthe Outsider - rituals involving bread and wine and the words 'this is\nmy body', 'an unknown God' - a title associated with the Christian\nGod, from Acts 17- the vision of Elijah.) That they don't dominate\nthe story more is unsurprising given that the story is set in what is,\nsymbolically, a pagan environment. The Outsider is - or at first\nappears to be - outside; that is the point. But I think they are\nenough to establish the Outsider as the Christian God.\n\nNow there is no doubt that he is also associated with certain Whorl\ngods and so, symbolically, with certain pagan gods. Explicitly, he is\nlinked with three; Kypris (Aphrodite), Quadrifons (Janus) and Thyone's\nSon (Dionysus). I take this to mean that pagan gods can be\nmanifestations - 'forms' or 'aspects', in the language used in the\ncycle - of the true God. Near the end the Rajan generalises the point\nby saying . 'Insofar as they're gods at all - which isn't far, in most\ncases - they are him.' So I don't have any difficulty seeing it as\nfundamentally a Christian world and yet making sense of the pagan\nreferences within it. I find it much harder to make sense of the\nChristian references if it is a fundamentally pagan world." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T23:06:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Furthermore, the Christian God is deeply merciful at his core and perhaps\nthat too is 'dark' and 'scary' to people who would give everything to\nneither receive that mercy nor be merciful to others (from the Christian\nunderstanding). That darkly merciful God comes through in Wolfe very\nstrongly to me ('dark' in the sense of *mysterious* also, the miracles of\nincarnation and atonement being paradoxical and bizarre).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nUh, I think you guys may be getting a little confused here. The Christian\nGod is Good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way because he is HOLY. There is\nno 'nastiness' or 'meanness' in the Christian conception of God. He\ndoesn't delight in the death of the wicked as the prophet Ezekiel puts it.\n In that sense 'in him there is no darkness at all' as 1 John chapter 1\nputs it. Tread carefully here if you want to speak coherently about\northodox theology. Not for sensibilities but for accuracy. Pure goodness\nis nothing we've ever truly seen in fullness and the eternal Triune Love\n(as Christian theology would have it) is a degree of communion and\nself-giving glory we just cannot imagine ('he dwells in unapproachable\nlight' as Paul put it). Thus this kind of transcendent goodness can be\ndownright terrifying to people enmeshed in spiritual darkness and sin\n(again from the Christian story). That is what it means for God not to be\n'safe' or 'tame'. God's wildness is a terror to evil, not a participant in\nit.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view\nthat God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and\ncondemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will\ncorrect me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who\ncreated space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark\nway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No correction from me. C.S. Lewis put it very succinctly: \"Aslan is\nnot a _tame_ lion.\" God is good but he isn't _nice_.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-06T23:08:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, what he said.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Andrew Mason ", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T14:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My view is that with Urth, Wolfe created a world where Christ never\nappeared, where all the ancient gods and horrors remained in control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: An interesting idea, and I like it. It has great \nexplanatory power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor me also. If there is agreement on this concept I think any other \ndisagreements are fairly inconsequential." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I realize that there is no way to convince you that the Outsider is\nthe Christian God, but I believe that the Increate is at work\nthroughout the Solar cycle, that, as the Bible says, He wills that all\nbe saved and that He would not abandon an entire Creation to perdition" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed! I've always maintained that Urth is not a hopeless world.\nSeverian lives in a time period chronologically advanced from our own but\nmore spiritually retarded. They have only made it to the Flood which we \nachieved 8000 years ago. They will receive their Christ when they are \nready, as we did. But at the end of BotNS they are not yet ready. They are\nstill pagan. And Long/Short Sun takes place before Urth's Flood (though\nBlue seems to have had its own).\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T14:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I completely do not follow your theology there, Lee. The \nOutsider is *totally* like the 'God of the Bible' (OT and NT)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this may be the very crux of our disagreement, and perhaps applies to\nDan'l and Jerry as well. I know it is canonical in modern Judeo-Christianity \nthat the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same God. But there is\na school of thought which holds that the God of the Old Testament (and Koran) is\ndifferent than the God of the New Testament. I have no personal belief but my \nreading of the Bible (and what I know of the Koran) supports this view and, \ngiven his fascination with the reality of pagan/gnostic gods I suspect Gene Wolfe \nsubscribes to this school of thought.\n \nIn the Old Testament, God is a self-proclaimed angry God. A jealous God who\nacknowledges the existence of real, rival gods. An unforgiving God who viciouly\nslaughters those who disobey him. A malicious God who repeatedly hardens Pharaoh's \nheart when the guy is trying to let the Hebrews go free; eventually sentencing\nthousands of innocent Egyptian children to death and drowning an entire army \nbecause of the heart-hardening. This is a God of war, conquest and genocide.\n \nAs I read it, there is a huge contrast between that God and the God of the New\nTestament who is, as described by the Christians here, good and loving. A God \nof peace and forgiveness, if not exactly \"nice\". The OT God is right there in \nearthly mix, messing directly with human affairs, appearing in guises and sending \nfood, water, plagues, death etc. as He sees fit. The NT God seems more distant and \nfar above humanity and human emotions like anger and jealousy. No more floods, \nburning bushes, wars nor genocides are sanctioned by Him.\n \nThe inconsistency is so profound I find it almost imperative to consider the NT God \nas either a different or a *transformed* God from the OT God. The OT God may have \nbeen a step up from other pagan gods but He was still pretty damn pagan, when \ncompared to the NT God. Jealous of Baal, commanding sacrifices, etc. Still some \nZeus-like trappings there (and the Jove-Jehovah name similarity is not coincidental)\n \nI'm hoping that clarifies my view a bit. In BotNS, the Increate does resemble the NT\nGod. But to me, the Outsider is too dark, too pagan, too directly involved in human \naffairs to be the Christian, NT God. If the argument is that The Outsider is or is an \nanalog to the OT God I am basically in agreement. Which brings up the interesting \nquestion: Did The Outsider (like the OT God) cause the Urth Flood? (or Floods, if you \ncount Blue)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T14:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Old Testament, God is a self-proclaimed angry God. A jealous God who\nacknowledges the existence of real, rival gods. An unforgiving God who\nviciouly\nslaughters those who disobey him. A malicious God who repeatedly hardens\nPharaoh's\nheart when the guy is trying to let the Hebrews go free; eventually\nsentencing\nthousands of innocent Egyptian children to death and drowning an entire army\nbecause of the heart-hardening. This is a God of war, conquest and genocide.\nMate, I don't have time to go into it, but I can't imagine a more\njaundiced, blinkered, selective reading of the Old Testament and the\ndoctrine of God that emerges from it (if you've really read 'Genesis to\nMalachi' at all). I'm not at all trying to assault or insult you, Lee -\nI'm just getting straight to the point. Terms of 'mercy' and the like are\nused to describe God hundreds of times in the OT and 'wrath' and so on are\nstill in the NT. That's just for starters. I really can't get into\ndemonstrating how utterly erroneous your theology is here.\n\nBut to me, the Outsider is too dark, too pagan, too directly involved in\nhuman\naffairs to be the Christian, NT God.\n\nAgain, what the heck are you talkin' about, my friend? It is PRECISELY\nGod's involvement that marks him as gracious, compassionate, and salvific\nin both Old and New Testaments (think Prophecy, Incarnation, Cross,\nResurrection).\n\nI'm pretty DANG sure that's the God Wolfe believes in and evinces in his\nworks. Let's argue about more pertitent things.\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I completely do not follow your theology there, Lee. The\nOutsider is *totally* like the 'God of the Bible' (OT and NT)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this may be the very crux of our disagreement, and perhaps applies\nto\nDan'l and Jerry as well. I know it is canonical in modern\nJudeo-Christianity\nthat the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same God. But\nthere is\na school of thought which holds that the God of the Old Testament (and\nKoran) is\ndifferent than the God of the New Testament. I have no personal belief but\nmy\nreading of the Bible (and what I know of the Koran) supports this view and,\ngiven his fascination with the reality of pagan/gnostic gods I suspect\nGene Wolfe\nsubscribes to this school of thought.\n\nIn the Old Testament, God is a self-proclaimed angry God. A jealous God who\nacknowledges the existence of real, rival gods. An unforgiving God who\nviciouly\nslaughters those who disobey him. A malicious God who repeatedly hardens\nPharaoh's\nheart when the guy is trying to let the Hebrews go free; eventually\nsentencing\nthousands of innocent Egyptian children to death and drowning an entire\narmy\nbecause of the heart-hardening. This is a God of war, conquest and\ngenocide.\n\nAs I read it, there is a huge contrast between that God and the God of the\nNew\nTestament who is, as described by the Christians here, good and loving. A\nGod\nof peace and forgiveness, if not exactly \"nice\". The OT God is right there\nin\nearthly mix, messing directly with human affairs, appearing in guises and\nsending\nfood, water, plagues, death etc. as He sees fit. The NT God seems more\ndistant and\nfar above humanity and human emotions like anger and jealousy. No more\nfloods,\nburning bushes, wars nor genocides are sanctioned by Him.\n\nThe inconsistency is so profound I find it almost imperative to consider\nthe NT God\nas either a different or a *transformed* God from the OT God. The OT God\nmay have\nbeen a step up from other pagan gods but He was still pretty damn pagan,\nwhen\ncompared to the NT God. Jealous of Baal, commanding sacrifices, etc. Still\nsome\nZeus-like trappings there (and the Jove-Jehovah name similarity is not\ncoincidental)\n\nI'm hoping that clarifies my view a bit. In BotNS, the Increate does\nresemble the NT\nGod. But to me, the Outsider is too dark, too pagan, too directly involved\nin human\naffairs to be the Christian, NT God. If the argument is that The Outsider\nis or is an\nanalog to the OT God I am basically in agreement. Which brings up the\ninteresting\nquestion: Did The Outsider (like the OT God) cause the Urth Flood? (or\nFloods, if you\ncount Blue)\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T18:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I can't imagine a more jaundiced, blinkered, selective \nreading of the Old Testament and the doctrine of God that emerges from it \n(if you've really read 'Genesis to Malachi' at all). I'm not at all \ntrying to assault or insult you, Lee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo offense taken, Daniel. I am more concerned that I have offended your \nbeliefs, which I did not intend to do. Still, you might correctly infer\nfrom my name that I was raised in the jewish faith and have read the Old\nTestament both in English and Hebrew. I am confortable with my understanding \nof its meaning and original intent.\n \nAs Christians are most focused on the gospels of the NT, so jews are focused\non the Pentateuch. I think you would have to be selective and blinkered to \nread it and NOT see the war, genocide and paganistic trappings found among\nthe ancient Hebrews and their God.\n \nNow if you are suggesting that God is more mellow and peaceful in the later\nprophet books than He is in Genesis and Exodus I would agree. This supports\nmy thesis that this is an evolving God.\n \nYou know, many Christians today are critical of Muslims and Sharia law. But from \npolygamy to honor killings to homosexual and slut stonings to holy wars, all that \nis criticized of Islam can be found in the Old Testament. Things that are not \nfound in the New Testament, as far as I know. But I am willing to learn \ndifferently and be corrected if I am wrong.\n \nPerhaps those more familiar with the NT find it to be just as brutal, with a God\nas warlike and vengeful as God is in the Pentateuch. I know some feel that AIDS\nis simply a modern way for God to punish gays and the Tsunami was a way to \npunish non-Christian heathens in Indonesia and Thailand etc. If it is your view\nthat God doles out rewards and punishments for devotion and disobedience as much \nnow as He did in Genesis I respect your position and will not debate it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T18:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nAs Christians are most focused on the gospels of the NT, so jews are\nfocused on the Pentateuch. I think you would have to be selective and\nblinkered to read it and NOT see the war, genocide and paganistic\ntrappings found among the ancient Hebrews and their God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. But..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now if you are suggesting that God is more mellow and peaceful in the later\nprophet books than He is in Genesis and Exodus I would agree. This\nsupports my thesis that this is an evolving God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Christian PoV is not that this is an evolving God, but an evolving\nreligion -- an evolving _response_ to God. The standard Christian\nstoryline is that God took a warlike, genocidal, and paganistic people\nand, over a course of centuries, turned them into a people fit to\nreceive the Theoanthropos.\n\n(Though perhaps He was impatient and sent/came as the Theoanthropos\ntoo soon... I doubt that Jesus would be crucified in modern Israel.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, many Christians today are critical of Muslims and Sharia law.\nBut from polygamy to honor killings to homosexual and slut stonings to holy\nwars, all that is criticized of Islam can be found in the Old Testament." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, quite true. The Christian narrative would be that this is\nbecause God had to meet the Hebrews where He found them -- a\n\"stiff-necked people,\" as the OT repeatedly calls them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Things that are not\nfound in the New Testament, as far as I know. ?But I am willing to learn\ndifferently and be corrected if I am wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the most important things about the NT is that, while the OT is\nthe book (or library) of a people who have been a conquering empire in\nthe past, and believe that they will be again in the future, the NT is\nthe book of a people who are under the thumb of the Roman Empire and\ndon't see any way out in this world." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<265685.91989.qm@smtp830.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2012-03-07T19:34:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:12 07/03/2012, Lee wrote:\nNo offense taken, Daniel. I am more concerned that I have offended your\nbeliefs, which I did not intend to do. Still, you might correctly infer\nfrom my name that I was raised in the jewish faith and have read the Old\nTestament both in English and Hebrew. I am confortable with my understanding\nof its meaning and original intent.\n\nAs Christians are most focused on the gospels of the NT, so jews are focused\non the Pentateuch. I think you would have to be selective and blinkered to\nread it and NOT see the war, genocide and paganistic trappings found among\nthe ancient Hebrews and their God.\n\nNow if you are suggesting that God is more mellow and peaceful in the later\nprophet books than He is in Genesis and Exodus I would agree. This supports\nmy thesis that this is an evolving God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I'm reading you wrongly, but you seem to be \ntacitly assuming that the various books are \naccurate descriptions of God as manifest at the time of writing?\n\nI have a different assumption, which is that the \nvarious books are testament not to the nature of \nGod, but to human perception of God -- ie. it is \nthat perception that evolves, not the nature of \nGod itself (which might be eternal, for all we can tell for sure).\n\nIt seems to me sensible to recognize the books as \nthe historical documents that they are — many \ncomposed long after the events that they depict \n(some of which events didn't actually happen) ? \nand as witnesses of human striving to understand \nthe nature of the Divine, rather than as faithfully documenting its workings.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F57BB48.6010803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T19:47:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<265685.91989.qm@smtp830.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mo Holkar wrote (07-03-2012 19:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a different assumption, which is that the various books are testament\nnot to the nature of God, but to human perception of God -- ie. it is that\nperception that evolves, not the nature of God itself (which might be\neternal, for all we can tell for sure).\n\nIt seems to me sensible to recognize the books as the historical documents\nthat they are — many composed long after the events that they depict (some\nof which events didn't actually happen) — and as witnesses of human striving\nto understand the nature of the Divine, rather than as faithfully\ndocumenting its workings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually find these two paragraphs excellent in conveying the idea." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T21:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, I'm not the least offended - my passionate response to you is from a\ndesire to see a* good reading* of the Bible and theology. And, brother,\nyou should not be 'comfortable' with your reading of the Hebrew Scriptures.\n Of course I see the war and genocide in the Old Testament, but do\n*you*see all the grace and mercy that are there from beginning to end?\n (Not\njust in the later prophets.) Again, I can't get into citing all the many\npassages, instances, trajectories and so on. But just take the creation\naccounts, the compassion toward Israel enslaved, the patience and\nforgiveness toward a people who rebel time and again, etc. Some of the\nabsolute tenderest and gentlest pictures of God are from the OT, from early\nto late material. At best, you could say the OT portrays a very mixed view\nof God, full of tensions - but not the one-sided essentially 'pagan'\nmonster you've described, Lee. I can't even begin to take that view\nseriously. Again, I'm just being right to the point, not trying to bully.\n (I don't think the OT God is really 'mixed' either for the record - I\nagree *to some degree* with what the others said about the 'evolving' view\nof God in the OT, but with less scepticism about its historical veracity\nfor one thing. But all that would have to be argued for and it's a\nworthwhile discussion.)\n\nIf it is your view\nthat God doles out rewards and punishments for devotion and disobedience as\nmuch\nnow as He did in Genesis I respect your position and will not debate it.\n\nNo. That is not my view. (Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it's\neven a coherent view.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I can't imagine a more jaundiced, blinkered, selective\nreading of the Old Testament and the doctrine of God that emerges from it\n(if you've really read 'Genesis to Malachi' at all). I'm not at all\ntrying to assault or insult you, Lee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No offense taken, Daniel. I am more concerned that I have offended your\nbeliefs, which I did not intend to do. Still, you might correctly infer\nfrom my name that I was raised in the jewish faith and have read the Old\nTestament both in English and Hebrew. I am confortable with my\nunderstanding\nof its meaning and original intent.\n\nAs Christians are most focused on the gospels of the NT, so jews are\nfocused\non the Pentateuch. I think you would have to be selective and blinkered to\nread it and NOT see the war, genocide and paganistic trappings found among\nthe ancient Hebrews and their God.\n\nNow if you are suggesting that God is more mellow and peaceful in the later\nprophet books than He is in Genesis and Exodus I would agree. This supports\nmy thesis that this is an evolving God.\n\nYou know, many Christians today are critical of Muslims and Sharia law.\nBut from\npolygamy to honor killings to homosexual and slut stonings to holy wars,\nall that\nis criticized of Islam can be found in the Old Testament. Things that are\nnot\nfound in the New Testament, as far as I know. But I am willing to learn\ndifferently and be corrected if I am wrong.\n\nPerhaps those more familiar with the NT find it to be just as brutal, with\na God\nas warlike and vengeful as God is in the Pentateuch. I know some feel that\nAIDS\nis simply a modern way for God to punish gays and the Tsunami was a way to\npunish non-Christian heathens in Indonesia and Thailand etc. If it is your\nview\nthat God doles out rewards and punishments for devotion and disobedience\nas much\nnow as He did in Genesis I respect your position and will not debate it.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331160858.43085.YahooMailNeo@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T22:54:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for your answers. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I didn't intend to suggest there was any nastiness or meanness or evil or cruel delight in the Christian conception of God, and I don't think Dan'l did either. I suggested that Silk's speculation that the Outsider was \"good in a dark way\" was compatible with his being God, from Wolfe's point of view and from an orthodox Catholic point of view (if they're different).\n\nThe Biblical passages you mentioned are illuminating (sorry), and I wasn't aware of them. (So is John 1, which I looked at before noticing that you'd cited 1 John 1.)? They suggest that a Catholic wouldn't call God \"dark\". However, you're willing to say \"good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way\" and \"darkly merciful\", so I gather that's a different sense of \"dark\". And from all this, I'm not convinced by the argument that the Outsider is too \"dark\" to be God as Wolfe, or Catholics in general, see him.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 4:06 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\n\n\nFurthermore, the Christian God is deeply merciful at his core and perhaps that too is 'dark' and 'scary' to people who would give everything to neither receive that mercy nor be merciful to others (from the Christian understanding). ?That darkly merciful God comes through in Wolfe very strongly to me ('dark' in the sense of mysterious also, the miracles of incarnation and atonement being paradoxical and bizarre). \n\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nUh, I think you guys may be getting a little confused here. ?The Christian God is Good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way because he is HOLY. ?There is no 'nastiness' or 'meanness' in the Christian conception of God. ?He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked as the prophet Ezekiel puts it. ?In that sense 'in him there is no darkness at all' as 1 John chapter 1 puts it. ?Tread carefully here if you want to speak coherently about orthodox theology. ?Not for sensibilities but for accuracy. ?Pure goodness is nothing we've ever truly seen in fullness and the eternal Triune Love (as Christian theology would have it) is a degree of communion and self-giving glory we just cannot imagine ('he dwells in unapproachable light' as Paul put it). ?Thus this kind of transcendent goodness can be downright terrifying to people enmeshed in spiritual darkness and sin (again from the Christian story). ?That is what it means for God not to be 'safe' or 'tame'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ?God's wildness is a terror to evil, not a participant in it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-DOJP \n\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view\nthat God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and\ncondemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will\ncorrect me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who\ncreated space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No correction from me. C.S. Lewis put it very succinctly: \"Aslan is\nnot a _tame_ lion.\" God is good but he isn't _nice_.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-07T23:50:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331160858.43085.YahooMailNeo@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I actually find these two [Mo Holkar's] paragraphs " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "excellent in conveying the idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree. And I find Dan'l's earlier, similar post expressing thing almost \n\nexactly as I would express my own personal views.\n\n \n\nClearly, Wolfe is also very aware of the human bias aspect to religious\n\nreporting. But I am continually haunted by his blunt assertions that\n\nhe believes the pagan gods to be real. I gather from this he doesn't\n\njust mean that all pagan gods are based on mythologized human rulers. I \n\nget the sense he doesn't think the ancients were as smart and perceptive as;\n\nwe are. And that when they report on superhuman personages they were reporting \n\naccurately. Where they saw a god throwing a thunderbolt we might report him as a \n\ngiant alien shooting a ray gun. But it wasn't just some king holding a shiny sword.\n\n \n\n \n\nLikewise for the early Old Testament. The events occurring there seem too\n\naligned with the mythology of other cultures to dismiss one of them as\n\nreal and the others as fake. Like Daniel I think Wolfe is more inclined to\n\ntake the words of the Bible at face value than some of the rest of us. This\n\nincludes miracles and sorcery and even angels wielding flaming swords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: my passionate response to you is from a\ndesire to see a* good reading* of the Bible and theology. And, brother,\nyou should not be 'comfortable' with your reading of the Hebrew Scriptures.\nOf course I see the war and genocide in the Old Testament, but do\n*you*see all the grace and mercy that are there from beginning to end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nDon't worry I am very comfortable with my reading and understanding of the\n\nBible and it sounds like you are too, so that is good. We can discuss it then\n\nwithout fear of offending.\n\n \n\nThe point I am making is not just that they had war and genocide and human \n\nsacrifice going on in the OT. It is that these things were reported as being\n\nthe result of direct commands from God. God doesn't say \"all other gods are\n\nfake\". He says he is a jealous god and no other gods shall be taken before him.\n\n \n\nYes, He had some nice moments. It was nice when he didn't make Abraham kill his\n\nson and nice how he saved Noah's family and some animals when the rest of earth had\n\nto die. (please forgive a little cynicism ;- )) Yes he was tender and fatherly at \n\ntimes. But I don't see how this mix of violence and compassion is much different \n\nthan say Zeus or Apollo. To me the OT God and his emotions smack of superhumanity, \n\nlike a pagan god, more than a pure deity as I see the NT God.\n\n \n\n \n\nPerhaps the reality is that the OT/NT change was not in God but in the people who are \n\nwriting the holy books. But I don't think this is what Wolfe is showing in the \n\nSun Series. Everything in the Sun Series seems more pagan, pre-Christian earth\n\nto me. There are superhuman and supersized beings who interact directly with humans, and\n\nare thus (unlike The Increate) capable of change and evolution.\n\n \n\nFor example we have Pas, a false god who is broken into pieces and reformed into various\n\nbeings associated with the Outsider, a true god. Sure we see the precursors to \n\nChristianity on Urth and Blue and in the Whorl. Just as there are Christian precursors \n\nin Greek, Roman and pagan/gnostic mythology.\n\n \n\nAs Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and Silk are\n\nthe precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs that He is \n\ncoming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T00:33:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and Silk are\nthe precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs that He is \ncoming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if we ignore the clear references to Him, e.g. Palm Sunday. Why would Wolfe have put that in, if he wanted us to think that Christ had not come? Easier to leave it out altogether, surely?\nBut that was not the point I wanted to make. Something occurred to me with regard to the Sign of Addition. You have suggested it refers to some other type cross-shaped icon such as the swastika. But do any of these have a sign made with the hand associated with them? Because there wasn’t just a cross on Silk’s Rosary — there was a hand-sign associated with it.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T12:48:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and Silk are\nthe precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs that He is \ncoming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Only if we ignore the clear references to Him, e.g. Palm Sunday. Why would \nWolfe have put that in, if he wanted us to think that Christ had not come? Easier to \nleave it out altogether, surely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I answered that before, but apparently not suffiently. I take this as Wolfe's\nway of saying that a Jesus-like figure appeared on Urth but it wasn't Christ. The\nconcept of Christ does not reside in such material items as a cross or palm fronds or\neven in the flesh and blood body of a guy named Jesus. This makes some sense if Wolfe\nconceives of Christianity to be a principle which is applicable across the unviverse(s),\nnot just a utility reserved for the human race on planet earth.\n \nIf Christ had appeared on Urth in the past, where did He go? Where is the spiritual\nsalvation He offered? Why is it no longer available to the people of Urth? Why is\nUrth left only with remnants of Christianity? Is Christianity so fragile that it could\nappear for a while then disappear for 90% of the rest of human history?\n \nBecause Urth and the Whorl and Blue/Green so resemble pre-Christian earth, I find it\nmore cohesive to extend the analogy. I see Christian precursors in the Sun Series, \nsimilar to those found in Greco-Roman times, where others see Christian vestiges.\n \nFWIW, I agree making a plus symbol with the hand makes the \"sign of addition\" closer to\na Christian cross than a swastika. But it still isn't quite the same.\n \nAlso, while to me, The outsider does not resemble our Christian God or the Increate in \nhis actions (possession, allowing multiple gods and monsters to exist with humans, not \noffering spiritual salvation,etc.) he does more resemble the OT God to me. If we assume \nthat the OT and NT God are the same, then I guess He would be trans-universal and the guy\nSilk was shown really could have been Jesus Christ. But on earth, not on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T13:20:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331160858.43085.YahooMailNeo@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Jerry, I confirm that I think Christians can (and ought to) embrace\nGod as 'dark' in ways distinct from implying evil - this is in poetic\ncounterpoise to the passages about him as light. (The Psalms say God\n'wraps himself in a canopy of darkness', for example.) And I also agree\nwith your last statement about the Outsider being best construed as God on\na Catholic understanding - not somehow substandard to that.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n Thanks for your answers. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I didn't intend\nto suggest there was any nastiness or meanness or evil or cruel delight in\nthe Christian conception of God, and I don't think Dan'l did either. I\nsuggested that Silk's speculation that the Outsider was \"good in a dark\nway\" was compatible with his being God, from Wolfe's point of view and from\nan orthodox Catholic point of view (if they're different).\n\nThe Biblical passages you mentioned are illuminating (sorry), and I wasn't\naware of them. (So is John 1, which I looked at before noticing that you'd\ncited 1 John 1.) They suggest that a Catholic wouldn't call God \"dark\".\nHowever, you're willing to say \"good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way\" and\n\"darkly merciful\", so I gather that's a different sense of \"dark\". And\nfrom all this, I'm not convinced by the argument that the Outsider is too\n\"dark\" to be God as Wolfe, or Catholics in general, see him.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n *From:* Daniel Petersen \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Tuesday, March 6, 2012 4:06 PM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) The Wizard\n\nFurthermore, the Christian God is deeply merciful at his core and perhaps\nthat too is 'dark' and 'scary' to people who would give everything to\nneither receive that mercy nor be merciful to others (from the Christian\nunderstanding). That darkly merciful God comes through in Wolfe very\nstrongly to me ('dark' in the sense of *mysterious* also, the miracles of\nincarnation and atonement being paradoxical and bizarre).\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\n\nUh, I think you guys may be getting a little confused here. The Christian\nGod is Good in a 'dark' and even 'scary' way because he is HOLY. There is\nno 'nastiness' or 'meanness' in the Christian conception of God. He\ndoesn't delight in the death of the wicked as the prophet Ezekiel puts it.\n In that sense 'in him there is no darkness at all' as 1 John chapter 1\nputs it. Tread carefully here if you want to speak coherently about\northodox theology. Not for sensibilities but for accuracy. Pure goodness\nis nothing we've ever truly seen in fullness and the eternal Triune Love\n(as Christian theology would have it) is a degree of communion and\nself-giving glory we just cannot imagine ('he dwells in unapproachable\nlight' as Paul put it). Thus this kind of transcendent goodness can be\ndownright terrifying to people enmeshed in spiritual darkness and sin\n(again from the Christian story). That is what it means for God not to be\n'safe' or 'tame'. God's wildness is a terror to evil, not a participant in\nit.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe one could make a case from the Christian point of view\nthat God is good in a dark way, since he kills lots of people and\ncondemns people to eternal torment. I hope the Christians here will\ncorrect me if I'm wrong, but I can see Wolfe believing that God, who\ncreated space and the stars, is good in every way, including the dark\nway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No correction from me. C.S. Lewis put it very succinctly: \"Aslan is\nnot a _tame_ lion.\" God is good but he isn't _nice_.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T14:14:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, He had some nice moments. It was nice when he didn't make Abraham kill\nhis\n\nson and nice how he saved Noah's family and some animals when the rest of\nearth had\n\nto die. (please forgive a little cynicism ;- )) Yes he was tender and\nfatherly at\n\ntimes.\n\nExcellent progress, Lee. Your theology is showing the first signs of\nnuance. (I'm on a cheeky roll, forgive me.) I read the OT opposite to\nyour cynicism and see the intermittent divine punishments through the lense\nof the constant, continual, consistent emphasis on God's eternal goodness,\ngrace, mercy, and justice - these divine attributes are proclaimed,\ndemonstrated, and indicated as the basis of Israel's morality (e.g. mercy\ntoward slaves and outsiders enhsrined in the Law). If God did indeed\ncommand all the inhabitants of Canaan to be put to death to make way for\nIsrael, then I have to assume there is a justice in this I may not readily\nsee. (And it was *only* in the Canaan instance - people often talk as if\nthe OT story is one unmitigated tale of God-ordained genocide - WRONG!)\nFor example, the account says God gave the Canaanite peoples about five\ncenturies to repent and change their ways (e.g. to stop murdering their\nchildren as sacrifices to idols, cease oppressing their women and men with\ntemple prostitution, etc.) before he ordered Israel to eradicate them. You\njust can't reasonably construe that as arbitrary divine tyrranny - it is\ntotally consistent with the 'Genesis to Revelation' emphasis on God\nheartily desiring the wicked to repent and be saved. Furthermore, I can\nonly reason from my premises (that God as portrayed in the OT is only just\nand good) that any 'innocent' (or rather, God-fearing) persons from that\nnation who were killed in their eradication by the Israelites went on to\ntheir 'reward' even though they had to suffer execution in this life due to\nthe overall hardened-to-the-point-of-no-return wickedness of their society\n(hardened by their own wills long before God may have done any\n'confirmation' hardening, as was the case in the Pharaoh scenario if you\nread it carefully - Pharaoh hardens his own heart first in the narrative).\nThus, on my understanding, any 'good' Canaanites that sadly had to die (and\nit was sad that the 'wicked' ones had to die too, even - nay,\n*especially*- to God) are now with their Maker and Saviour in eternal,\nunmitigated\nglory and joy and are NOT complaining that God is unjust (unlike we, who\nare still behind the 'veil of tears', are chronically tempted to do.) Lee,\nI'm not 'comfortable' with my reading of the Bible because I take that as a\nsign that the reading is not very supple or subtle or defeasible and open\nto revision. I once again recommend you have done with comfort in theology\nand hermeneutics and join the dance! (Er, dang - guess that would make it\nan 'interpretive dance' - didn't mean to go there.)\n\nANYWAY, that's probably the last time I'll try to enumerate any defense of\nthe OT God being as merciful and good as the NT God here. I don't want\nto take this discussion board too far off topic. It's utterly relevant to\nWolfe's view of God worked out in his fiction, but it would take a closer\ntracking between Bible and Solar Cycle (for example) to keep things\nWolfe-relevant. I'm not prepared to do that at this time. I'm very happy\nto have this more general theological discussion with Lee or anyone else in\na proper forum for it (if I had time personally, that is). It's well worth\nhaving. I hope maybe what I (and some others) have said can help at least\nsome people think twice before they make sweeping Dawkinsian\ngeneralisations about these matters based on utterly unsophisticated\nreadings of OT/NT. (Again, I'm not trying to insult or bully, but I think\nthe point needs to be made sharply for the sake of perspicuity, not to\nmention perspicacity.)\n\nAll of this is very relevant to Wolfe's fiction also in regard to allowing\na text to do what it does rather than reading so much of one's own agenda\ninto it so as to mangle it. Again, I don't try to make Dan Simmons's texts\nsomething other than what are often rather overtly atheist texts. Nor do I\ntry to make Ursula Le Guin's texts something other than overtly\nanarcho-taoist texts. I let them preach their sermons to me because I find\nmuch of their art so enjoyable and enriching and we share that in common.\nWhilst being challenged by their artistically enfleshed worldviews I may\nfind elements of their works that I think actually favour my own view\nbetter. But I would be completely clear that when making such observations\nI have at that point manifestly stepped outside of what those authors done\nand taken things in directions their texts do not, on their own rationale,\nindicate. Let's do the same with Wolfe I suggest. (And this isn't about\n'sensibilities' towards people's beliefs and so on - it's about quality\nliterary analysis.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I actually find these two [Mo Holkar's] paragraphs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "excellent in conveying the idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. And I find Dan'l's earlier, similar post expressing thing almost\n\nexactly as I would express my own personal views.\n\n\n\nClearly, Wolfe is also very aware of the human bias aspect to religious\n\nreporting. But I am continually haunted by his blunt assertions that\n\nhe believes the pagan gods to be real. I gather from this he doesn't\n\njust mean that all pagan gods are based on mythologized human rulers. I\n\nget the sense he doesn't think the ancients were as smart and perceptive\nas;\n\nwe are. And that when they report on superhuman personages they were\nreporting\n\naccurately. Where they saw a god throwing a thunderbolt we might report\nhim as a\n\ngiant alien shooting a ray gun. But it wasn't just some king holding a\nshiny sword.\n\n\n\n\n\nLikewise for the early Old Testament. The events occurring there seem too\n\naligned with the mythology of other cultures to dismiss one of them as\n\nreal and the others as fake. Like Daniel I think Wolfe is more inclined to\n\ntake the words of the Bible at face value than some of the rest of us. This\n\nincludes miracles and sorcery and even angels wielding flaming swords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: my passionate response to you is from a\ndesire to see a* good reading* of the Bible and theology. And, brother,\nyou should not be 'comfortable' with your reading of the Hebrew\nScriptures.\nOf course I see the war and genocide in the Old Testament, but do\n*you*see all the grace and mercy that are there from beginning to end?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't worry I am very comfortable with my reading and understanding of the\n\nBible and it sounds like you are too, so that is good. We can discuss it\nthen\n\nwithout fear of offending.\n\n\n\nThe point I am making is not just that they had war and genocide and human\n\nsacrifice going on in the OT. It is that these things were reported as\nbeing\n\nthe result of direct commands from God. God doesn't say \"all other gods are\n\nfake\". He says he is a jealous god and no other gods shall be taken before\nhim.\n\n\n\nYes, He had some nice moments. It was nice when he didn't make Abraham\nkill his\n\nson and nice how he saved Noah's family and some animals when the rest of\nearth had\n\nto die. (please forgive a little cynicism ;- )) Yes he was tender and\nfatherly at\n\ntimes. But I don't see how this mix of violence and compassion is much\ndifferent\n\nthan say Zeus or Apollo. To me the OT God and his emotions smack of\nsuperhumanity,\n\nlike a pagan god, more than a pure deity as I see the NT God.\n\n\n\n\n\nPerhaps the reality is that the OT/NT change was not in God but in the\npeople who are\n\nwriting the holy books. But I don't think this is what Wolfe is showing in\nthe\n\nSun Series. Everything in the Sun Series seems more pagan, pre-Christian\nearth\n\nto me. There are superhuman and supersized beings who interact directly\nwith humans, and\n\nare thus (unlike The Increate) capable of change and evolution.\n\n\n\nFor example we have Pas, a false god who is broken into pieces and\nreformed into various\n\nbeings associated with the Outsider, a true god. Sure we see the\nprecursors to\n\nChristianity on Urth and Blue and in the Whorl. Just as there are\nChristian precursors\n\nin Greek, Roman and pagan/gnostic mythology.\n\n\n\nAs Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and\nSilk are\n\nthe precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs\nthat He is\n\ncoming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T14:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and Silk are\nthe precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs that He is \ncoming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Only if we ignore the clear references to Him, e.g. Palm Sunday. Why would \nWolfe have put that in, if he wanted us to think that Christ had not come? Easier to \nleave it out altogether, surely?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I answered that before, but apparently not suffiently. I take this as Wolfe's\nway of saying that a Jesus-like figure appeared on Urth but it wasn't Christ. The\nconcept of Christ does not reside in such material items as a cross or palm fronds or\neven in the flesh and blood body of a guy named Jesus. This makes some sense if Wolfe\nconceives of Christianity to be a principle which is applicable across the unviverse(s),\nnot just a utility reserved for the human race on planet earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The big problem I see with this interpretation is not the interpretation itself but that Wolfe mentions Jesus and yet seems to give no indication at all that this is the interpretation he is promoting.\n\nSuppose you were writing an alternate history where Hitler became a monk and WWII never occurred. Would you gratuitously insert a clear reference (and old piece of newsreel, say) to Hitler orating at a Nuremberg Rally, while never ever making any reference to Hitler taking vows? To me that seems analogous to what you are proposing as a “secret history” behind the Solar Cycle.\n\nWolfe has a reputation for subtlety, and an (exaggerated) reputation for obscurity. But I am pretty sure that neither you, Wolfe or anyone else would write the story this way.\n\nFamously, Wolfe once said - in relation to BotNS I think — that he tried to tell the reader everything once and once only. He did not suggest telling him 0 times. I also think he rowed back a little from this approach in later work. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Christ had appeared on Urth in the past, where did He go? Where is the spiritual\nsalvation He offered? Why is it no longer available to the people of Urth? Why is\nUrth left only with remnants of Christianity? Is Christianity so fragile that it could\nappear for a while then disappear for 90% of the rest of human history?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a variety of religions on Urth, and little description of them, and we only see a small part of the planet. Christianity may well persist underground, or may even have changed its form a little and be all around. None of the characters in BotNS are very religious except the Pelerines.\n\nMarble seems to indicate that the chems on Urth clung to the older religion in Typhon’s time. But chems seem to be largely gone, at least from the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, while to me, The outsider does not resemble our Christian God or the Increate in \nhis actions (possession, allowing multiple gods and monsters to exist with humans, not \noffering spiritual salvation,etc.) he does more resemble the OT God to me. If we assume \nthat the OT and NT God are the same, then I guess He would be trans-universal and the guy\nSilk was shown really could have been Jesus Christ. But on earth, not on Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he can be shown to Silk across universes, it might be argued that the transcendental blessings associated with him should propagate across universes anyway.\n\nAs for the Outsider, I disagree with you. As I’ve noted, the descriptions of him in the character lists are quite analogous to the Persons of the Trinity[*]. He is never shown to possess anyone. He enlightens Silk, a similar thing but not quite the same. The supposed possession of Jesus when he threw the \nmoneylenders out of the temple is just Silk’s interpretation. \n\n[*]\nLake: the minor god who enlightened Silk\nCalde: the god of the broken and disparaged, whose realm lies outside the Whorl\nExodus: the god of gods\n\nThe Calde description fits Christ. The Exodus description can be NT Father or OT Yahweh. Lake could be the Holy Spirit.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T15:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Famously, Wolfe once said - in relation to BotNS I think ? \nthat he tried to tell the reader everything once and once only. He did not \nsuggest telling him 0 times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a variety of religions on Urth, and little description of them, and \nwe only see a small part of the planet. Christianity may well persist \nunderground, or may even have changed its form a little and be all around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBy your own principle, Wolfe would not put Christians in his story by \nmentioning them 0 times. You are suggesting that Wolfe is presenting a future\nin which we can degenerate into being just \"a little\" Christian? Or that a \nfuture society can just be tinged with Christianity around the edges? My \nimpression is that his faith in Christianity is stronger than that.\n \nIn relation to Outsider possession, I am thinking of Tartaros. And as previously\nmentioned, the pagan, archaic setting of the Sun Series leads me to the conclusion\nthat the Christian elements we see are heralds of something to come, not remants\nof something departed. It is just my view and needn't be accepted by you or \nanyone else. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F58CD7D.8090707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T15:17:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (08-03-2012 14:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "As Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The\nOutsider and Silk are the precursors to Blue/Urth's version of\nChristianity. We see the signs that He is coming but in the\nnarrative we are given, He has not yet arrived." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Only if we ignore the clear references to Him, e.g.\nPalm Sunday. Why would Wolfe have put that in, if he wanted us to\nthink that Christ had not come? Easier to leave it out altogether,\nsurely?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I answered that before, but apparently not suffiently. I take\nthis as Wolfe's way of saying that a Jesus-like figure appeared on\nUrth but it wasn't Christ. The concept of Christ does not reside in\nsuch material items as a cross or palm fronds or even in the flesh and\nblood body of a guy named Jesus. This makes some sense if Wolfe\nconceives of Christianity to be a principle which is applicable across\nthe unviverse(s), not just a utility reserved for the human race on\nplanet earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The big problem I see with this interpretation is not the interpretation\n itself but that Wolfe mentions Jesus and yet seems to give no indication\n at all that this is the interpretation he is promoting. Suppose you were\n writing an alternate history where Hitler became a monk and WWII never\noccurred. Would you gratuitously insert a clear reference (and old piece\n of newsreel, say) to Hitler orating at a Nuremberg Rally, while never\never making any reference to Hitler taking vows? To me that seems\nanalogous to what you are proposing as a “secret history” behind the\nSolar Cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that I like to see *this particular* comparison between Jesus\nand H?ttler. For some reason I can't explain, I find that more offensive\nthan, say, comparing religion to belief in the tooth fairy.\n\nBut aside from that, I think Lee has a point. Taking 'our' Jesus for granted\njust because there seems to have been *a* Jesus on Urth is legitimate but\nnot unquestionable. I find it unchristian to think the 'real' Church could\nhave failed (but of course that's a catholic view). Rather, either the Jesus\nwas the same but Humanity was fundamentally worse, or Humanity was more or\nless the same but the Jesus wasn't really Jesus.\n\nThink of it - if God has already come to this world and it still ended up \nthe way Urth did, then what hope is there of it ever becoming right, Ushas \nor no Ushas?\n\nI was so glad I was sitting this discussion out." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T15:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F58CD7D.8090707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I hope maybe what I (and some others) have said can \nhelp at least some people think twice before they make sweeping Dawkinsian\ngeneralisations about these matters based on utterly unsophisticated\nreadings of OT/NT.,,,All of this is very relevant to Wolfe's fiction also in \nregard to allowing a text to do what it does rather than reading so much of \none's own agenda into it so as to mangle it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Thanks for a very well written post Daniel. We haven't interacted in here\nall that much so I can forgive you for mistaking me for some militant atheist\nwith an agenda like Richard Dawkins. I happen to think of Dawkins as a brilliant\npopulist theoretical biologist and a short-sighted, prejudiced fool in his \noutspoken hateful views on religion. My own views are generally the opposite of\nhis.\n \nThe idea of proving my \"sophistication\" in understanding the Bible seems a bit\ndistasteful. Must different imply inferior? Perhaps I will only mention that you, \nyourself, seem to have an agenda which makes it difficult for you to read the \nBible in any manner which could present God in a \"bad\" light. I wouldn't call that \nview of the Bible \"unsophisticated\" but I think it is fair to consider it colored \na bit.\n \n(FWIW, I personally agree with Dan'l, et al. that the brutality depicted in the OT \nand the human emotions and motivations attributed to the deity reflect more on \nthe people and culture of the times, than on God, Himself)\n \nI do agree that this subject continually teeters on the brink of being off-topic in\na Wolfe forum and might be something of a dead horse. I don't think I have anything\nfurther to add, though I get the impression Gerry Quinn might still want to go\non discussing a bit. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T15:30:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I do agree that this subject continually teeters on the brink of being\noff-topic in\na Wolfe forum and might be something of a dead horse.\"\n\nI tend to agree with this. The topic of the thread is *The Wizard*, and\nhas turned into (again) a discussion of whether or not the Sun Cycle takes\nplace in a \"Christian\" universe. While that might be an interesting\nsubject in its own right, it is a bit off-topic, and when it starts turning\ninto disagreements about the OT and personal religious beliefs, I start\nlosing interest entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I hope maybe what I (and some others) have said can\nhelp at least some people think twice before they make sweeping Dawkinsian\ngeneralisations about these matters based on utterly unsophisticated\nreadings of OT/NT.,,,All of this is very relevant to Wolfe's fiction also\nin\nregard to allowing a text to do what it does rather than reading so much\nof\none's own agenda into it so as to mangle it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Thanks for a very well written post Daniel. We haven't interacted in\nhere\nall that much so I can forgive you for mistaking me for some militant\natheist\nwith an agenda like Richard Dawkins. I happen to think of Dawkins as a\nbrilliant\npopulist theoretical biologist and a short-sighted, prejudiced fool in his\noutspoken hateful views on religion. My own views are generally the\nopposite of\nhis.\n\nThe idea of proving my \"sophistication\" in understanding the Bible seems a\nbit\ndistasteful. Must different imply inferior? Perhaps I will only mention\nthat you,\nyourself, seem to have an agenda which makes it difficult for you to read\nthe\nBible in any manner which could present God in a \"bad\" light. I wouldn't\ncall that\nview of the Bible \"unsophisticated\" but I think it is fair to consider it\ncolored\na bit.\n\n(FWIW, I personally agree with Dan'l, et al. that the brutality depicted\nin the OT\nand the human emotions and motivations attributed to the deity reflect\nmore on\nthe people and culture of the times, than on God, Himself)\n\nI do agree that this subject continually teeters on the brink of being\noff-topic in\na Wolfe forum and might be something of a dead horse. I don't think I have\nanything\nfurther to add, though I get the impression Gerry Quinn might still want\nto go\non discussing a bit.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T16:30:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Lee, apologies on seeming to make a blanket association with you and\nDawkins. I only meant in your seemingly similar readings of the OT. Other\nthan that, you're nothing like him (thank God, heh). Yes, I, as all\nreaders must, have an 'agenda' in reading the OT - I was only maintaining\nthat mine was more legitimate than yours in responding to the text. But\nthen, you went and said your view was like that of Dan'l and others, which\nis not at all how you stated it at first. Your summary of the OT God as\ngenocidal and whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library\nof texts (and yes, I think unsophisticated or un-nuanced readings of\nanything are 'inferior' to ones that are more subtle). If you want to\nretract that first statement, fine.\n\nAs to being off-topic: though I'm the one who brought up the fact that we\nwere probably veering in that direction (if not well into that territory),\nnow I want to back track just a wee bit and say to Antonin and perhaps\nothers who feel as him that I've tried to be clear throughout that my\narguments about Wolfe and theology are by no means about 'personal\nreligious beliefs' but about good readings of public texts. Just because\n'religious' becomes the adjective of the moment to describe a particular\ndiscussion doesn't automatically push that discussion into 'off-topic' -\nanymore than 'personal political beliefs' or 'personal astronomical\nbeliefs' would do.\n\nAnd now I am truly done helping the Wizard Knight thread careen away from\nits titular topic.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: I hope maybe what I (and some others) have said can\nhelp at least some people think twice before they make sweeping Dawkinsian\ngeneralisations about these matters based on utterly unsophisticated\nreadings of OT/NT.,,,All of this is very relevant to Wolfe's fiction also\nin\nregard to allowing a text to do what it does rather than reading so much\nof\none's own agenda into it so as to mangle it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Thanks for a very well written post Daniel. We haven't interacted in\nhere\nall that much so I can forgive you for mistaking me for some militant\natheist\nwith an agenda like Richard Dawkins. I happen to think of Dawkins as a\nbrilliant\npopulist theoretical biologist and a short-sighted, prejudiced fool in his\noutspoken hateful views on religion. My own views are generally the\nopposite of\nhis.\n\nThe idea of proving my \"sophistication\" in understanding the Bible seems a\nbit\ndistasteful. Must different imply inferior? Perhaps I will only mention\nthat you,\nyourself, seem to have an agenda which makes it difficult for you to read\nthe\nBible in any manner which could present God in a \"bad\" light. I wouldn't\ncall that\nview of the Bible \"unsophisticated\" but I think it is fair to consider it\ncolored\na bit.\n\n(FWIW, I personally agree with Dan'l, et al. that the brutality depicted\nin the OT\nand the human emotions and motivations attributed to the deity reflect\nmore on\nthe people and culture of the times, than on God, Himself)\n\nI do agree that this subject continually teeters on the brink of being\noff-topic in\na Wolfe forum and might be something of a dead horse. I don't think I have\nanything\nfurther to add, though I get the impression Gerry Quinn might still want\nto go\non discussing a bit.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T17:17:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nBy your own principle, Wolfe would not put Christians in his story by\nmentioning them 0 times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he _does_ mention the Theoanthropos." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331227602.14610.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T17:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some content asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he can't use some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is \"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to write a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by Monday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better than I do, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with memory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is fraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can see the tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather than bringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to memory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes out...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T17:36:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "<1331227602.14610.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Susan Delage.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he can't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better than I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can see\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly appreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather than\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F58EF64.7030008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T17:41:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all \nthe clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the Canaanites." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T18:12:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about \"A Recording\" from Storeys from the Old Hotel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"Susan Delage.\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he\ncan't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better\nthan I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can see\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly\nappreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather\nthan\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T18:15:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember correctly, \"A Recording\" is also in *The Very Best of Gene\nWolfe*, which will probably be easier to find." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Keeley\nwrote:\nHow about \"A Recording\" from Storeys from the Old Hotel?\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Susan Delage.\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he\ncan't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better\nthan I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can\nsee\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly\nappreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather\nthan\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T18:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not Wolfe, but a perfect complement would be \"Snow\" by John Crowley. I\nfound it in \"20 Years of the Year's Best Science Fiction\" (Dozois)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nIf I remember correctly, \"A Recording\" is also in *The Very Best of Gene\nWolfe*, which will probably be easier to find.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Susan Delage.\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he\ncan't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better\nthan I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can\nsee\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly\nappreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather\nthan\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331235531.83663.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T19:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew, my friend is a historian, and my first thought was to do something on Crowley's Aegypt books...although I think that would be impossible in three days. I'm much more familiar with Wolfe, thanks largely to lurking here for so long. But I appreciate the recommendation (and will probably end up reading it again tonight while I put off writing).\n\n\n\n \n\nNot Wolfe, but a perfect complement would be \"Snow\" by John Crowley. ?I found it in \"20 Years of the Year's Best Science Fiction\" (Dozois).\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nIf I remember correctly, \"A Recording\" is also in The Very Best of Gene Wolfe, which will probably be easier to find." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n\nHow about \"A Recording\" from Storeys from the Old Hotel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\"Susan Delage.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he can't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better than I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can see\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly appreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather than\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331235642.40042.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T19:40:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, indeed! And I'd forgotten about Gwern Branwen's write up about it. Tons of useful stuff, so thank you thank you." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T20:07:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F58EF64.7030008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine\nof God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites.\n Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a doctrine of a\nmerciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from themes in Genesis\nand Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost' in idolatry and\nthen the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT development of\nthe doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable divine\nrevelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people out of\nidolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah. Thus,\nthe God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is progressively\nrevealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox Christian\nunderstanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT merely as a\ngenocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's fiction, I\nthink. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least, do not\nthink he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts\n(...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all\nthe clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T20:15:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an interview(s) in\nwhich Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have read\na fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his\nphilosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to *The\nWizard*for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God\nseems quite\nabsent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist\nbeing, especially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms\ninteract with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a\nworld \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a\n\"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh\nmy memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nHey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine\nof God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites.\n Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a doctrine of a\nmerciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from themes in Genesis\nand Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost' in idolatry and\nthen the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT development of\nthe doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable divine\nrevelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people out of\nidolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah. Thus,\nthe God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is progressively\nrevealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox Christian\nunderstanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT merely as a\ngenocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's fiction, I\nthink. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least, do not\nthink he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts\n(...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all\nthe clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T20:31:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from the\nlower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nHaha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an interview(s) in\nwhich Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have read\na fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his\nphilosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to *The Wizard\n* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite\nabsent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist\nbeing, especially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms\ninteract with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a\nworld \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a\n\"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh\nmy memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine\nof God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites.\n Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a doctrine of a\nmerciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from themes in Genesis\nand Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost' in idolatry and\nthen the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT development of\nthe doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable divine\nrevelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people out of\nidolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah. Thus,\nthe God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is progressively\nrevealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox Christian\nunderstanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT merely as a\ngenocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's fiction, I\nthink. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least, do not\nthink he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts\n(...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around\nall the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T20:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she\nbecomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation\nshowed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in *The\nKnight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood to\nbecome healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\" that pops up a few times is\nless a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;\nblood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in\npre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of\n*several*characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael\nand Able)\nstrikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both human and\ndivine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nI think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from the\nlower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine\nof God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites.\n Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a doctrine of a\nmerciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from themes in Genesis\nand Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost' in idolatry and\nthen the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT development of\nthe doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable divine\nrevelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people out of\nidolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah. Thus,\nthe God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is progressively\nrevealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox Christian\nunderstanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT merely as a\ngenocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's fiction, I\nthink. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least, do not\nthink he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts\n(...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around\nall the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:09:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\n\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she\nbecomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation\nshowed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in *The\nKnight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood to\nbecome healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\" that pops up a few times is\nless a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;\nblood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in\npre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of *several*characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael and Able)\nstrikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both human and\ndivine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from\nthe lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an interview(s)\nin which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have\nread a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his\nphilosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to *The\nWizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God\nseems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a\nremarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\" of\nother realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy\nto go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps\na \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh\nmy memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could\nnot possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around\nall the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily.\"\n\nInteresting point. I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The Wizard\n* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBut what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she\nbecomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation\nshowed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in *The\nKnight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood to\nbecome healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\" that pops up a few times is\nless a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;\nblood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in\npre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of *several\n* characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael and\nAble) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both human\nand divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from\nthe lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an interview(s)\nin which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have\nread a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his\nphilosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to *The\nWizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God\nseems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a\nremarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\" of\nother realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy\nto go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps\na \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh\nmy memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could\nnot possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around\nall the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:17:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it somehow\nsalvific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\n\"But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\"\n\nInteresting point. I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The\nWizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she\nbecomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation\nshowed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in *The\nKnight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood\nto become healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\" that pops up a few times\nis less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;\nblood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in\npre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of *\nseveral* characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael\nand Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both\nhuman and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from\nthe lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an\ninterview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his\nwriting? I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly\nfocused on his philosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back\nto *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most\nHigh God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me\nas a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\"\nof other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is\neasy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer\n(perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High\nGod's influence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone\nrefresh my memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or\nKleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could\nnot possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go\naround all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate\nthe Canaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:20:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf blood;\nit is interesting that it works \"both ways\", and if it is a perversion for\nhumans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher world, it seems\nlike it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to drink Aelf\nblood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood sacrifice). It\nmakes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having healing and\nsalvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other way around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nYou're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it\nsomehow salvific.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until\nshe becomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing /\ntransformation showed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is\nwounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't\nremember which) blood to become healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\"\nthat pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan\ntransference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly\ncommon theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the\nblood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent\npower (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions\n(where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from\nthe lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an\ninterview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his\nwriting? I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly\nfocused on his philosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back\nto *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most\nHigh God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me\nas a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\"\nof other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is\neasy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer\n(perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High\nGod's influence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone\nrefresh my memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or\nKleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could\nnot possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go\naround all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate\nthe Canaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:22:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nI think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf\nblood; it is interesting that it works \"both ways\", and if it is a\nperversion for humans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher\nworld, it seems like it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to\ndrink Aelf blood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood\nsacrifice). It makes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having\nhealing and salvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other\nway around.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it\nsomehow salvific.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\"\n\nInteresting point. I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The\nWizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until\nshe becomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing /\ntransformation showed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is\nwounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't\nremember which) blood to become healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\"\nthat pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan\ntransference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly\ncommon theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the\nblood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent\npower (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions\n(where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks\ndirectly about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.\n The interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent\nfrom the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more\nnearly Gnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more\nobliquely ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us\ndistant from the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an\ninterview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his\nwriting? I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly\nfocused on his philosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back\nto *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most\nHigh God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me\nas a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\"\nof other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is\neasy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer\n(perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High\nGod's influence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone\nrefresh my memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or\nKleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT\ncould not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go\naround all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate\nthe Canaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not for the same reasons, though. I doubt a god has anything tangible\n(like physical healing, for example) to gain from drinking the blood of\nsomeone who worships. The divine acceptance of a blood sacrifice seems\nmore a favor for the followers and a symbol of power than something the god\nneeds to survive or recover from a wound. I guess it depends on the\npantheon, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBut pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers...\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it\nsomehow salvific.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\"\n\nInteresting point. I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The\nWizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given\nvoluntarily.\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until\nshe becomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing /\ntransformation showed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is\nwounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't\nremember which) blood to become healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\"\nthat pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan\ntransference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly\ncommon theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the\nblood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent\npower (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions\n(where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks\ndirectly about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.\n The interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent\nfrom the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more\nnearly Gnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more\nobliquely ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us\ndistant from the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an\ninterview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his\nwriting? I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly\nfocused on his philosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back\nto *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most\nHigh God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me\nas a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\"\nof other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is\neasy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer\n(perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High\nGod's influence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone\nrefresh my memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or\nKleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT\ncould not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go\naround all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate\nthe Canaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T21:53:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All that may be allusively there in Wizard Knight, which would be exactly\nwhat we've come to expect from Wolfe. Pagan practices finding their\n'correction' and true 'fulfilment' in Christian salvation. (Resonating\nwith C. S. Lewis's idea of 'good dreams', I think.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\n\"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is\nbrought in right at the end\"\n\nIs the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she\nbecomes \"real\"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation\nshowed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in *The\nKnight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood to\nbecome healed. This sort of \"blood sacrifice\" that pops up a few times is\nless a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;\nblood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in\npre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of *several*characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael and Able)\nstrikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both human and\ndivine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly\nabout some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The\ninterview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html\n\nOr you can go straight to the religion bit here:\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig\n\n I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from\nthe lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being,\nespecially considering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with\nthe worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or\n\"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is\neven impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the\nworld second from the top.\n\nYeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly\nGnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely\nironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant\nfrom the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially\neucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian\nredemption is hinted at.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an interview(s)\nin which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have\nread a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his\nphilosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to *The\nWizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God\nseems quite absent from the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a\nremarkably deist being, especially considering how active the \"gods\" of\nother realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy\nto go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps\na \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh\nmy memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)\n\nThe *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could\nnot possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)\ndoctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the\nCanaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a\ndoctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from\nthemes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'\nin idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT\ndevelopment of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable\ndivine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people\nout of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.\n Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is\nprogressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox\nChristian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT\nmerely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's\nfiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least,\ndo not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2012/3/8 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and\nwhatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of\ntexts (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around\nall the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-08T22:20:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I'm cheating", "in_reply_to": "<1331235642.40042.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Will you let us know if your piece makes it in to the online journal so we\ncan look it up?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nYes, indeed! And I'd forgotten about Gwern Branwen's write up about it.\nTons of useful stuff, so thank you thank you.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n*To:* Craig Brewer ; The Urth Mailing List <\nurth at lists.urth.net>\n*Sent:* Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:36 AM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) I'm cheating\n\n\"Susan Delage.\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm using the list to cheat.\n\nA friend of mine is an editor for a small online journal. He needs some\ncontent asap on an issue about \"memory\" because it turns out that he\ncan't\nuse some of the submissions he had lined up. The theme of the issue is\n\"memory\" and \"public memory\" (broadly defined), so I thought I'd try to\nwrite a quick piece on _Peace_ (heh) over the weekend. He needs it by\nMonday.\n\nThe cheating part: many of you know Wolfe's short stories much better\nthan I\ndo, so I'd like to pick your brains about which stories might deal with\nmemory in ways similar to _Peace_. For me, that means where memory is\nfraught with disturbance, pain, incompleteness, regret, etc. (You can see\nthe tack I'm taking toward _Peace_.) Any help would be greatly\nappreciated\nas I'd like to scatter in some references to the shorter works rather\nthan\nbringing in Severian/Horn/Latro/Able's much more tangled relations to\nmemory...I just don't have the time or the space for that.\n\nAnd, of course, any and all credit will be given once the thing comes\nout...if I can actually crank out something decent in three days.\n\nCraig\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T12:38:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe would not put Christians in his story by mentioning them 0 times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan't Danehy-Oakes: Well, he _does_ mention the Theoanthropos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTrue, early on, vis Agia, iirc. And at that point in the story we might be\nprompted to think the god in humanform referenced is Jesus Christ. But as\nthe story progresses I think The Conciliator becomes a more likely \ncandidate in this society. On the other hand, Agia's demon symbol might \nsuggest she worships a different Theoanthropos than The Conciliator. Who\nmight that be..... ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, \nmaking it somehow salvific." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this jibes with the contrast between Severian's feasting on Thecla,\nwhich wolfe describes as a \"diabolical eucharist\" and his similar meal of\nthe old Autarch which is decribed more benignly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, but perhaps that's what makes them pagan. They demand blood sacrifice\nFROM their followers. Christ offers His blood as a sacrifice TO his \nfollowers.\n \nIn the James Jordan interview Daniel cites, Wolfe explains (in discussing Apheta)\nthat he thinks it is the duty of higher beings to uplift lower beings, just as\nlower beings ought to worship and aspire to the level of higher beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: All that may be allusively there in Wizard Knight, which would \nbe exactly what we've come to expect from Wolfe. Pagan practices finding their\n'correction' and true 'fulfilment' in Christian salvation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed. Which is part of the reason I think a true Christ figure has yet to arrive\nin the Sun Series universe rather than having appeared and departed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin: I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent \nfrom the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being, especially \nconsidering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with the worlds below them. \nIt seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is \nrarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's \ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. And I think this parallels the situation of The Increate in the Sun Series.\nTzadkiel seems to suggest The Increate is too lofty to interact directly with humanity\nand his will is done through intermediaries such as Tzadkiel, whose will on Urth is \ndone through intermediaries such as B, F and O. This is one reason I don't think The \nOutsider is The Increate. He is too close and directly involved with humanity.\n \nIf Gene Wolfe is a man who believes in the reality of pagan gods, then it is not such\na stretch to think he also believes in the reality of angels. I think many modern\nChristians consider their faith only through the concepts of God and Man. Perhaps Wolfe\nfeels there are (or has been) a hierarchy of intermediary beings between them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4094E60CD5724AAC943DD71E15ED094E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T15:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Famously, Wolfe once said - in relation to BotNS I think ? \nthat he tried to tell the reader everything once and once only. He did not \nsuggest telling him 0 times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are a variety of religions on Urth, and little description of them, and \nwe only see a small part of the planet. Christianity may well persist \nunderground, or may even have changed its form a little and be all around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By your own principle, Wolfe would not put Christians in his story by \nmentioning them 0 times. You are suggesting that Wolfe is presenting a future\nin which we can degenerate into being just \"a little\" Christian? Or that a \nfuture society can just be tinged with Christianity around the edges? My \nimpression is that his faith in Christianity is stronger than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are substantial and obvious allusions to Christian symbols and even references to Jesus Christ in Long Sun and Short Sun. So I don’t see how you can argue that Christianity is not mentioned.\nOn Urth, on the other hand, Christianity does not seem to be evident. Perhaps Typhon suppressed it in favour of Monarch-worship. Marble indicates that the Chems still worshipped the Outsider in Typhon’s time. Could Christianity have disappeared or almost disappeared from Urth? It is possible, IMO. Urth is a degenerate, entropic world that can only be saved by its near destruction. Perhaps the loss of Christianity is part of this. But it might not really be relevant. In New Sun, Wolfe is writing an SF story which *mirrors* to some degree the Christian story. Perhaps it was simply the logical artistic choice not to put Christianity in the spotlight at the same time. In Long and Short Sun, this issue does not arise in the same way because we can interpret God as the motor of the story. The motor of New Sun is specifically an SF conceit.\nAnd I don’t see how you can argue on the one hand that Wolfe could not bring himself to depict a non-Christian society (anyway he has, repeatedly), and at the same time try to paint his books as having a heretical secret history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In relation to Outsider possession, I am thinking of Tartaros. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tartarus? The digitised personality of Typhon’s blind son? Why would you think he is the Outsider?\n\nAnd even if you do, his possession of Auk seems more as a companion than a rider. Quite different from Scylla, Echidna and even Kypris." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as previously\nmentioned, the pagan, archaic setting of the Sun Series leads me to the conclusion\nthat the Christian elements we see are heralds of something to come, not remants\nof something departed. It is just my view and needn't be accepted by you or \nanyone else. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. But such elements are pretty commonplace in Wolfe.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T15:57:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F58CD7D.8090707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nGerry Quinn wrote (08-03-2012 14:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The big problem I see with this interpretation is not the interpretation\nitself but that Wolfe mentions Jesus and yet seems to give no indication\nat all that this is the interpretation he is promoting. Suppose you were\n > writing an alternate history where Hitler became a monk and WWII never\noccurred. Would you gratuitously insert a clear reference (and old piece\nof newsreel, say) to Hitler orating at a Nuremberg Rally, while never\never making any reference to Hitler taking vows? To me that seems\nanalogous to what you are proposing as a “secret history” behind the\nSolar Cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know that I like to see *this particular* comparison between Jesus\nand H?ttler. For some reason I can't explain, I find that more offensive\nthan, say, comparing religion to belief in the tooth fairy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m sorry you found it offensive. I wasn’t trying to make a comparison as such, just giving an example of how one would not write an alternate history. Hitler frequently features in alternate histories, and I selected him more or less at random.\nIs it so terrible to posit that Hitler might have been redeemed by faith, though?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But aside from that, I think Lee has a point. Taking 'our' Jesus for granted\njust because there seems to have been *a* Jesus on Urth is legitimate but\nnot unquestionable. I find it unchristian to think the 'real' Church could\nhave failed (but of course that's a catholic view). Rather, either the Jesus\nwas the same but Humanity was fundamentally worse, or Humanity was more or\nless the same but the Jesus wasn't really Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don’t really know it has failed, though certainly it is a legitimate speculation. New Sun simply doesn’t deal much with religion. In a previous post I suggested that putting Christianity centre stage would be problematic because New Sun is based on an SF conceit that to some extent mirrors the Christian story, with a physical New Sun (technically, the old sun renewed I suppose) mirroring the Christian promise of Salvation. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Think of it - if God has already come to this world and it still ended up \nthe way Urth did, then what hope is there of it ever becoming right, Ushas \nor no Ushas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would you have argued the same during the Roman persecutions? Christianity went through a bad time then and it might again. There are suggestions that Typhon may have done something similar.\n\nYou might even argue that it would be *worse* if the Church were visibly presiding over Urth in Severian’s time!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331309371.32590.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T16:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/9/12, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, March 9, 2012, 7:57 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nYou might even argue that it would be *worse* if the Church were visibly presiding over Urth in Severian’s time!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T16:41:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without going into all the details of your post, which was quite\ninteresting, I want to clarify something: I do not believe that Christ\nhas come, or will come, in the Sun universe.\n\nRather, I believe that salvation in that universe is available through\nthe \"once for all\" sacrifice of Christ in _our_ universe. When the\nOutsider shows Silk images of Christ, it is from our universe, not\nhis. (And \"a man possessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" is the\nclosest thing Silk can understand to what Christ was/is/will be.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe would not put Christians in his story by mentioning them 0 times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan't Danehy-Oakes: Well, he _does_ mention the Theoanthropos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, early on, vis Agia, iirc. And at that point in the story we might be\nprompted to think the god in humanform referenced is Jesus Christ. But as\nthe story progresses I think The Conciliator becomes a more likely\ncandidate in this society. On the other hand, Agia's demon symbol might\nsuggest she worships a different Theoanthropos than The Conciliator. Who\nmight that be..... ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily,\nmaking it somehow salvific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this jibes with the contrast between Severian's feasting on Thecla,\nwhich wolfe describes as a \"diabolical eucharist\" and his similar meal of\nthe old Autarch which is decribed more benignly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but perhaps that's what makes them pagan. They demand blood sacrifice\nFROM their followers. Christ offers His blood as a sacrifice TO his\nfollowers.\n\nIn the James Jordan interview Daniel cites, Wolfe explains (in discussing Apheta)\nthat he thinks it is the duty of higher beings to uplift lower beings, just as\nlower beings ought to worship and aspire to the level of higher beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: All that may be allusively there in Wizard Knight, which would\nbe exactly what we've come to expect from Wolfe. ?Pagan practices finding their\n'correction' and true 'fulfilment' in Christian salvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. Which is part of the reason I think a true Christ figure has yet to arrive\nin the Sun Series universe rather than having appeared and departed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonin Scriabin: I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent\nfrom the lower worlds and that \"he\" struck me as a remarkably deist being, especially\nconsidering how active the \"gods\" of other realms interact with the worlds below them.\nIt seems that it is easy to go a world \"up\" or \"down\", but going farther than that is\nrarer (perhaps a \"two-world jump\" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's\ninfluence is mainly in the world second from the top." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. And I think this parallels the situation of The Increate in the Sun Series.\nTzadkiel seems to suggest The Increate is too lofty to interact directly with humanity\nand his will is done through intermediaries such as Tzadkiel, whose will on Urth is\ndone through intermediaries such as B, F and O. This is one reason I don't think The\nOutsider is The Increate. He is too close and directly involved with humanity.\n\nIf Gene Wolfe is a man who believes in the reality of pagan gods, then it is not such\na stretch to think he also believes in the reality of angels. ?I think many modern\nChristians consider their faith only through the concepts of God and Man. Perhaps Wolfe\nfeels there are (or has been) a hierarchy of intermediary beings between them.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T18:10:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So I don’t see how you can argue that Christianity is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it isn't. Quasi-Christian symbols and concepts can be found from pre-Christ\ntimes on earth. Notably in the Egyptian and Roman cultures from which the Whorl society\nis most closely modelled upon. \n \nI don't think the presence of Christian-like symbols in ancient times means that means \nChristianity existed before Jesus Christ. So I don't think similar symbols in the story \nneed indicate Christianity in the Sun Series.\n \nIn a previous post I agreed with the possibility of the scenario Dan'l recently \nposted: That Silk's vision of a Jesus-like guy was in fact Jesus Christ of earth\nand the Outsider draws the image from across universes to provide that vision. Like \nDan'l, I don't see much evidence of a Christ on Urth. Postulating a secret, hidden, \nsociety of Christians somewhere on Urth and unmentioned by the author just isn't very \nconvincing.\n \nIf you are unwilling to acknowlege that quasi-Christian symbolism existed before\nChrist on earth I could sorta see how the \"sign of addition\" might appear as proof \npostive that Christ existed on Urth. Still I would think the presence of haruspicy\n(divination via animal entrails) and augury (divination via flight patterns of birds)\nby the priests of Viron would at least hint that this is a pre-Christian, pagan sort \nof religion.\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-09T18:25:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Without going into all the details of your post, which \nwas quite interesting, I want to clarify something: I do not believe that \nChrist has come, or will come, in the Sun universe. Rather, I believe that \nsalvation in that universe is available through the \"once for all\" sacrifice \nof Christ in _our_ universe. When the Outsider shows Silk images of Christ, \nit is from our universe, not his. (And \"a man possessed and enlightened by \nthe Outsider\" is the closest thing Silk can understand to what Christ \nwas/is/will be.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice post Dan'l. I can actually see how this scenario explains the situation\nin an equivalent way to the the idea that Christ is someday coming to Urth in\nits future.\n \nI can see how the \"once for all\" concept would be appealing for Christians\nfor whom it would be disturbing to think about multiple instances (and shapes, \nsizes, colors and biochemstries) of Christ appearing around the universe.\n \nOn the other hand, \"once for all\" is a concept which seems a bit antithetical\nfor the SF community who tend to want to think more expansively and not so\nearth-centric about the universe.\n \nThen we have Gene Wolfe who is both a Christian and an SF writer. What was his\nthinking and intention? Heh. Well, maybe he left it ambiguous on purpose having\nanticipated this very debate among his readers :- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331356279.25471.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T05:11:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member of the \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... which I think a lot of people (me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a torturer, but that he and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"\n\nBut the logic here can be taken in a weak and a strong sense.\n\nThe weak sense is that they're all touched by a \"real God' in some vague way: for Silk, it's the Outsider's revelation; for Severian, it's whatever motivates him to try to act like Christ (the whole Christ-figure, not actual Christ thing). But it's a very generally spiritual and admittedly vague connection of membership in a spiritual or religious \"community.\"\n\nThe strong sense, though, suggests that the Guild is actually the Church. I mean, I once thought the Guild was an actual forgotten descendant and corruption of the Catholic Church. (That was before the list had me worried about multiple universes, and I just assumed that the story was about \"our future\".) If both characters receive some kind of direct revelation, and both are actually part of \"The Church,\" how much does it really matter that this might be occurring in a universe without a historical Christ or in an iteration of a universe before there was an actual Christ (our own)?\n\nMy point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the argument over whether the Christian symbolism which we all agree is one way or another \"there\" in the book must be read as pre-Christian or forgotten-Christian. I assumed that the whole setup basically sets an actual awareness of \"true theology\" at a vast distance from these characters, and their revelations and moments of grace are always both frustrating and illuminating because they're in a culture that both needs and resists those moments. In other words, when thinking about what Severian or Silk actually experience and about their narrative arcs, does it matter whether or not this world actually had a Christ? Either way, these characters know nothing about the historical events, and that's what really matters. It's their distance from the truth (no matter which direction in time) that gives their stories a real spiritual tension and urgency.\n\n\n\n________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Friday, March 9, 2012 12:10 PM\nSubject: (urth) The Wizard\nGerry Quinn: So I don’t see how you can argue that Christianity is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it isn't. Quasi-Christian symbols and concepts can be found from pre-Christ\ntimes on earth. Notably in the Egyptian and Roman cultures from which the Whorl society\nis most closely modelled upon. \n\nI don't think the presence of Christian-like symbols in ancient times means that means \nChristianity existed before Jesus Christ. So I don't think similar symbols in the story \nneed indicate Christianity in the Sun Series.\n\nIn a previous post I agreed with the possibility of the scenario Dan'l recently \nposted: That Silk's vision of a Jesus-like guy was in fact Jesus Christ of earth\nand the Outsider draws the image from across universes to provide that vision. Like \nDan'l, I don't see much evidence of a Christ on Urth. Postulating a secret, hidden, \nsociety of Christians somewhere on Urth and unmentioned by the author just isn't very \nconvincing.\n\nIf you are unwilling to acknowlege that quasi-Christian symbolism existed before\nChrist on earth I could sorta see how the \"sign of addition\" might appear as proof \npostive that Christ existed on Urth. Still I would think the presence of haruspicy\n(divination via animal entrails) and augury (divination via flight patterns of birds)\nby the priests of Viron would at least hint that this is a pre-Christian, pagan sort \nof religion.\n\n\n? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T09:14:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331356279.25471.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, Craig, at the risk of sounding sycophantic, I just have to shout an\n'amen!' yet again to your perceptive observations. I guess I'm the\npresident of the Craig Brewer Fan Club. Folks can send me a S.A.S.E. for\ntheir newsletter and decoder ring. I've been thinking what are (I think)\nsimilar thoughts about this over the past few days and I doubt I could have\nexplicated them as clearly. What matters in the Solar Cycle (and some\nother major and minor works, including Wizard Knight) is the 'feel' of the\ntheme of a world that is *haunted* by a hidden/long-forgotten/yet-to-come\nChrist and God (be that through pseudo-Christs and pseudo-Gods, whatever:\n the real ones are back behind it all somewhere, somehow). I think Wolfe\nwas intentionally enfleshing the (in some ways) post-Christian world of his\nday in the fictional removes of his work, letting the literary echoes his\nfictions created very slowly and obliquely find their way back into our\nconscious minds and actual cultures as his readers.\n\nWolfe wasn't the first Catholic to do this. Flannery O'Connor tackled her\nfiction in this exact fashion: she said that so few people believed in the\nChurch's 'Dogma' anymore that she couldn't assume it as a shared\nunderstanding with her readers when writing her stories. Yet she knew she\nhad no choice but to write from that perspective since those were her\nconvinced convictions. So she wove Catholic themes of Creation, Fall, and\nRedemption obliquely into her work by the back door. It's not dishonest,\nby the bye - it's humble (and yes, sly - I would say wise.) Walker Percy\nexplicitly used phrases in his novels like 'our Christ-haunted USA' -\nWolfe, I think, in his saying the same thing in his tortuous, devious,\nludic way. R. A. Lafferty too (whose work Wolfe admired and whom Wolfe\nthought was an actual genius) did similar things in his fiction that I\nwon't go into here.\n\nComparison with his contemporaneous Catholics in writing would probably go\na long way toward helpfully interpreting Wolfe.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:11 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member of\nthe \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... which I think a lot\nof people (me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a\ntorturer, but that he and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"\n\nBut the logic here can be taken in a weak and a strong sense.\n\nThe weak sense is that they're all touched by a \"real God' in some vague\nway: for Silk, it's the Outsider's revelation; for Severian, it's whatever\nmotivates him to try to act like Christ (the whole Christ-figure, not\nactual Christ thing). But it's a very generally spiritual and admittedly\nvague connection of membership in a spiritual or religious \"community.\"\n\nThe strong sense, though, suggests that the Guild is actually the Church.\nI mean, I once thought the Guild was an actual forgotten descendant and\ncorruption of the Catholic Church. (That was before the list had me worried\nabout multiple universes, and I just assumed that the story was about \"our\nfuture\".) If both characters receive some kind of direct revelation, and\nboth are actually part of \"The Church,\" how much does it really matter that\nthis might be occurring in a universe without a historical Christ or in an\niteration of a universe before there was an actual Christ (our own)?\n\nMy point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the\nargument over whether the Christian symbolism which we all agree is one way\nor another \"there\" in the book must be read as pre-Christian or\nforgotten-Christian. I assumed that the whole setup basically sets an\nactual awareness of \"true theology\" at a vast distance from these\ncharacters, and their revelations and moments of grace are always both\nfrustrating and illuminating because they're in a culture that both needs\nand resists those moments. In other words, when thinking about what\nSeverian or Silk actually experience and about their narrative arcs, does\nit matter whether or not this world actually had a Christ? Either way,\nthese characters know nothing about the historical events, and that's what\nreally matters. It's their distance from the truth (no matter which\ndirection in time) that gives their stories a real spiritual tension and\nurgency.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* Lee Berman \n*To:* urth at urth.net\n*Sent:* Friday, March 9, 2012 12:10 PM\n*Subject:* (urth) The Wizard" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So I don’t see how you can argue that Christianity is not\nmentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it isn't. Quasi-Christian symbols and concepts can be found from\npre-Christ\ntimes on earth. Notably in the Egyptian and Roman cultures from which the\nWhorl society\nis most closely modelled upon.\n\nI don't think the presence of Christian-like symbols in ancient times\nmeans that means\nChristianity existed before Jesus Christ. So I don't think similar symbols\nin the story\nneed indicate Christianity in the Sun Series.\n\nIn a previous post I agreed with the possibility of the scenario Dan'l\nrecently\nposted: That Silk's vision of a Jesus-like guy was in fact Jesus Christ of\nearth\nand the Outsider draws the image from across universes to provide that\nvision. Like\nDan'l, I don't see much evidence of a Christ on Urth. Postulating a\nsecret, hidden,\nsociety of Christians somewhere on Urth and unmentioned by the author just\nisn't very\nconvincing.\n\nIf you are unwilling to acknowlege that quasi-Christian symbolism existed\nbefore\nChrist on earth I could sorta see how the \"sign of addition\" might appear\nas proof\npostive that Christ existed on Urth. Still I would think the presence of\nharuspicy\n(divination via animal entrails) and augury (divination via flight\npatterns of birds)\nby the priests of Viron would at least hint that this is a pre-Christian,\npagan sort\nof religion.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T15:49:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "craig Brewer: I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "member of the \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI am not familiar with that one. I'd appreciate a link to it very much if it\n\nthe identity happens to come to mind. I am familiar with a Wolfe quote saying\n\nthat Jesus, given his scourging of the moneychangers, had bit of torturer within\n\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the argument " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...In other words, when thinking about what Severian or Silk actually experience and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about their narrative arcs, does it matter whether or not this world actually had a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christ? Either way, these characters know nothing about the historical events, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that's what really matters. It's their distance from the truth (no matter which " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "direction in time) that gives their stories a real spiritual tension and urgency." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI would agree. That is probably a good description of Wolfe's intentions. \n\n \n\nTo understand the significance of the arguments, I think you have to be cognizant\n\nof the dynamics of a venue such as this. If you write a book and include an\n\ninsightful truism, as you have done above, each reader can nod in agreement and \n\nenjoy the insight. Here, it might get a bit boring if the dialog consisted entirely\n\nof such statements and dutiful affirmations from each other. That is a rather passive \n\nand static form of communication.\n\n \n\nWhen there is disagrement it becomes more active and dynamic. Various factions will \n\nbecome inspired to delve more deeply into the text and more broadly beyond the \n\ntext to find support for their positions. We've seen evidence dredged from Persian \n\npoety, astrophysics, avian taxonomy, occult worship, etc. Stuff I never would have \n\nlearned about without the debate.\n\n \n\nI'm not saying there is no place for a discussion of agreement of Wolfe's brilliance\n\nor news blurbs concerning his next award or a newly published review of his work. I\n\njust don't think that's all this List need be restricted to. I never wish for negativity \n\nbut I am forced to admit the bald truth that the debates have been more helpful in \n\nfurthering my understanding of Gene Wolfe than the agreements.\n\n \n\nIn more specific terms, I have learned a lot from Dan'l, David, James, Jordon, Marc and\n\nothers in the last few years that would never have been explicated without the provocations \n\nof Gerry Quinn. That's why I have steadfastly supported Gerry's contributions here, despite \n\nthe superficial appearance of antagonism. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6322C187-7096-48A6-8EBB-E7BC5B10F29F@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T16:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the link. Random q&a from the list a long time ago.\n\nhttp://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 10, 2012, at 9:49 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "craig Brewer: I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "member of the \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not familiar with that one. I'd appreciate a link to it very much if it\n\nthe identity happens to come to mind. I am familiar with a Wolfe quote saying\n\nthat Jesus, given his scourging of the moneychangers, had bit of torturer within\n\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the argument " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...In other words, when thinking about what Severian or Silk actually experience and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "about their narrative arcs, does it matter whether or not this world actually had a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Christ? Either way, these characters know nothing about the historical events, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that's what really matters. It's their distance from the truth (no matter which " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "direction in time) that gives their stories a real spiritual tension and urgency." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would agree. That is probably a good description of Wolfe's intentions. \n\n\n\nTo understand the significance of the arguments, I think you have to be cognizant\n\nof the dynamics of a venue such as this. If you write a book and include an\n\ninsightful truism, as you have done above, each reader can nod in agreement and \n\nenjoy the insight. Here, it might get a bit boring if the dialog consisted entirely\n\nof such statements and dutiful affirmations from each other. That is a rather passive \n\nand static form of communication.\n\n\n\nWhen there is disagrement it becomes more active and dynamic. Various factions will \n\nbecome inspired to delve more deeply into the text and more broadly beyond the \n\ntext to find support for their positions. We've seen evidence dredged from Persian \n\npoety, astrophysics, avian taxonomy, occult worship, etc. Stuff I never would have \n\nlearned about without the debate.\n\n\n\nI'm not saying there is no place for a discussion of agreement of Wolfe's brilliance\n\nor news blurbs concerning his next award or a newly published review of his work. I\n\njust don't think that's all this List need be restricted to. I never wish for negativity \n\nbut I am forced to admit the bald truth that the debates have been more helpful in \n\nfurthering my understanding of Gene Wolfe than the agreements.\n\n\n\nIn more specific terms, I have learned a lot from Dan'l, David, James, Jordon, Marc and\n\nothers in the last few years that would never have been explicated without the provocations \n\nof Gerry Quinn. That's why I have steadfastly supported Gerry's contributions here, despite \n\nthe superficial appearance of antagonism. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BA34F6A17AD4A5880D5A947D4EFC303@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T16:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331356279.25471.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Craig Brewer " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member of the\n\"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... which I think a lot of people\n(me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a torturer, but that \nthe and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can’t say I have ever thought that, and to be honest I don’t find it credible. The name is surely just an ironically appropriate one for the guild of Torturers. We are told of other guilds, chiefly the Animal Trainers and the Witches. All three guilds have weird, unique rituals and ceremonies. The Witches seem closer to a religion than the others. As for the Torturers, they take their business seriously but not to my mind in a religious fashion. And their history insofar as it is described is entirely secular, except that they have a patron saint — which I think many guilds might do, even in the real world.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9AFE414A-A43A-43BC-86DA-2B15B30429F7@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T16:44:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lafferty and O'Connor seem like perfect analogues on this point. There's something in both of those writers that makes faith a very dark and dangerous and uncertain thing. That matches well with the sense I get from Wolfe. Sometimes I feel like discussions of his religious attitudes neglect that dimension in favor of teasing out something like a straightforward cosmology or theology behind all the allusion/puzzles rather than seeing them as precisely \"dark glasses\" through which the characters and readers are trying to understand what's happening to them. The point isn't to unravel it all in order to achieve certainty. The point is that the puzzles go all the way down (at least some of the most important ones), but you have to live and make decisions anyway. That's what makes the characters in all the Sun books so fascinating to me. They HAVE to figure out the real story because it's their story, and the consequences are ultimate. But they can't, at least not completely. That's a dilemma that would make O'Connor proud.\n\nIn Lafferty, it often seems to me that the truth is often absent. Some of his stories are horrifying because things have gone desperately wrong in a fallen world. The apparent humor on the surface leaves scars.\n\n(And thanks for the fan club...you can keep 40% of the dues...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 10, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nOk, Craig, at the risk of sounding sycophantic, I just have to shout an 'amen!' yet again to your perceptive observations. I guess I'm the president of the Craig Brewer Fan Club. Folks can send me a S.A.S.E. for their newsletter and decoder ring. I've been thinking what are (I think) similar thoughts about this over the past few days and I doubt I could have explicated them as clearly. What matters in the Solar Cycle (and some other major and minor works, including Wizard Knight) is the 'feel' of the theme of a world that is haunted by a hidden/long-forgotten/yet-to-come Christ and God (be that through pseudo-Christs and pseudo-Gods, whatever: the real ones are back behind it all somewhere, somehow). I think Wolfe was intentionally enfleshing the (in some ways) post-Christian world of his day in the fictional removes of his work, letting the literary echoes his fictions created very slowly and obliquely find their way back into our conscious minds and actual cultures as his readers. \n\nWolfe wasn't the first Catholic to do this. Flannery O'Connor tackled her fiction in this exact fashion: she said that so few people believed in the Church's 'Dogma' anymore that she couldn't assume it as a shared understanding with her readers when writing her stories. Yet she knew she had no choice but to write from that perspective since those were her convinced convictions. So she wove Catholic themes of Creation, Fall, and Redemption obliquely into her work by the back door. It's not dishonest, by the bye - it's humble (and yes, sly - I would say wise.) Walker Percy explicitly used phrases in his novels like 'our Christ-haunted USA' - Wolfe, I think, in his saying the same thing in his tortuous, devious, ludic way. R. A. Lafferty too (whose work Wolfe admired and whom Wolfe thought was an actual genius) did similar things in his fiction that I won't go into here.\n\nComparison with his contemporaneous Catholics in writing would probably go a long way toward helpfully interpreting Wolfe.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:11 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member of the \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... which I think a lot of people (me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a torturer, but that he and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"\n\nBut the logic here can be taken in a weak and a strong sense.\n\nThe weak sense is that they're all touched by a \"real God' in some vague way: for Silk, it's the Outsider's revelation; for Severian, it's whatever motivates him to try to act like Christ (the whole Christ-figure, not actual Christ thing). But it's a very generally spiritual and admittedly vague connection of membership in a spiritual or religious \"community.\"\n\nThe strong sense, though, suggests that the Guild is actually the Church. I mean, I once thought the Guild was an actual forgotten descendant and corruption of the Catholic Church. (That was before the list had me worried about multiple universes, and I just assumed that the story was about \"our future\".) If both characters receive some kind of direct revelation, and both are actually part of \"The Church,\" how much does it really matter that this might be occurring in a universe without a historical Christ or in an iteration of a universe before there was an actual Christ (our own)?\n\nMy point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the argument over whether the Christian symbolism which we all agree is one way or another \"there\" in the book must be read as pre-Christian or forgotten-Christian. I assumed that the whole setup basically sets an actual awareness of \"true theology\" at a vast distance from these characters, and their revelations and moments of grace are always both frustrating and illuminating because they're in a culture that both needs and resists those moments. In other words, when thinking about what Severian or Silk actually experience and about their narrative arcs, does it matter whether or not this world actually had a Christ? Either way, these characters know nothing about the historical events, and that's what really matters. It's their distance from the truth (no matter which direction in time) that gives their stories a real spiritual tension and urgency.\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Friday, March 9, 2012 12:10 PM\nSubject: (urth) The Wizard" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So I don’t see how you can argue that Christianity is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it isn't. Quasi-Christian symbols and concepts can be found from pre-Christ\ntimes on earth. Notably in the Egyptian and Roman cultures from which the Whorl society\nis most closely modelled upon. \n\nI don't think the presence of Christian-like symbols in ancient times means that means \nChristianity existed before Jesus Christ. So I don't think similar symbols in the story \nneed indicate Christianity in the Sun Series.\n\nIn a previous post I agreed with the possibility of the scenario Dan'l recently \nposted: That Silk's vision of a Jesus-like guy was in fact Jesus Christ of earth\nand the Outsider draws the image from across universes to provide that vision. Like \nDan'l, I don't see much evidence of a Christ on Urth. Postulating a secret, hidden, \nsociety of Christians somewhere on Urth and unmentioned by the author just isn't very \nconvincing.\n\nIf you are unwilling to acknowlege that quasi-Christian symbolism existed before\nChrist on earth I could sorta see how the \"sign of addition\" might appear as proof \npostive that Christ existed on Urth. Still I would think the presence of haruspicy\n(divination via animal entrails) and augury (divination via flight patterns of birds)\nby the priests of Viron would at least hint that this is a pre-Christian, pagan sort \nof religion.\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<970A293C-B122-46D9-B1F6-53AFB359E09E@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T16:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<7BA34F6A17AD4A5880D5A947D4EFC303@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. And this got hashed out in the same terms on the list a long time ago, so sorry to bring it up again for the oldsters.\n\nBut I do think that Wolfe meant it metaphorically in the sense of belonging to a tradition that seeks truth. (In the interview, he says he means it \"in the broadest possible sense\" which to me means that it isn't just a plot point.) But, hey, Silk is good with a knife in those sacrifices, so who knows..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 10, 2012, at 10:33 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n \n \nFrom: Craig Brewer\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member of the\n > \"Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence\" ... which I think a lot of people\n(me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a torturer, but that\nthe and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI can’t say I have ever thought that, and to be honest I don’t find it credible. The name is surely just an ironically appropriate one for the guild of Torturers. We are told of other guilds, chiefly the Animal Trainers and the Witches. All three guilds have weird, unique rituals and ceremonies. The Witches seem closer to a religion than the others. As for the Torturers, they take their business seriously but not to my mind in a religious fashion. And their history insofar as it is described is entirely secular, except that they have a patron saint — which I think many guilds might do, even in the real world.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331399441.92179.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T17:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<9AFE414A-A43A-43BC-86DA-2B15B30429F7@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This past year I defended Wolfe's elisions and \"uncertainties\" by talking about the fact that he is truly a spritual/mysterious writer: in reality, the most important information, the one that can give everything meaning, is not present; it can be seen in structure and in existence, but not overtly. Thus my reasoning for most of his narrators not having the full picture of the most important details of their condition: we as humans don't quite have the full details just by looking at the facts we \"know\" with certainty, but those aren't the most important things that really make sense of everything.\n\n--- On Sat, 3/10/12, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, March 10, 2012, 8:44 AM\n\n\n\n\nLafferty and O'Connor seem like perfect analogues on this point. There's something in both of those writers that makes faith a very dark and dangerous and uncertain thing. That matches well with the sense I get from Wolfe. Sometimes I feel like discussions of his religious attitudes neglect that dimension in favor of teasing out something like a straightforward cosmology or theology behind all the allusion/puzzles rather than seeing them as precisely \"dark glasses\" through which the characters and readers are trying to understand what's happening to them. The point isn't to unravel it all in order to achieve certainty. The point is that the puzzles go all the way down (at least some of the most important ones), but you have to live and make decisions anyway. That's what makes the characters in all the Sun books so fascinating to me. They HAVE to figure out the real story because it's their story, and the consequences are ultimate. But they can't, at\n least not completely. That's a dilemma that would make O'Connor proud.\n\n\nIn Lafferty, it often seems to me that the truth is often absent. Some of his stories are horrifying because things have gone desperately wrong in a fallen world. The apparent humor on the surface leaves scars." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331399550.85331.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T17:12:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<970A293C-B122-46D9-B1F6-53AFB359E09E@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, as I said earlier, there is something very priestly about giving up things and donning black to become a torturer of men. Especially in light of Gene's statement that one of the only things (possibly the only thing) Christ makes as a carpenter is an instrument of torture like a whip or something.\n\n--- On Sat, 3/10/12, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, March 10, 2012, 8:49 AM\n\n\n\n\nFair enough. And this got hashed out in the same terms on the list a long time ago, so sorry to bring it up again for the oldsters.\n\n\nBut I do think that Wolfe meant it metaphorically in the sense of belonging to a tradition that seeks truth. (In the interview, he says he means it \"in the broadest possible sense\" which to me means that it isn't just a plot point.) But, hey, Silk is good with a knife in those sacrifices, so who knows..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T17:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331399441.92179.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only thing I would add to Craig and Marc's comments is the\nqualification that I think some of Wolfe's characters *do* actually\nexperience genuine redemption, but that it's never finished, but always\nongoing - it has arrived truly but only in part, to help guide\n*through*darkness and mystery. But those characters are indeed now in\ncommunion\nwith the Community of the Infinite - be it ever so shaky or intermittent or\nin process/progress. Again, I think Wolfe is here evincing a New Testament\neschatology of an 'already-not-yet' kingdom of heaven and salvation.\n Indeed, it's often salvation through paradox, a dancing redemption in\nmovement and counterpoise (a la Chesterton, O'Connor, and the poetry of\nGeorge Herbert), not a static status of 'saved'.\n\nWolfe is a 'spiritual/mysterious' writer not only in the sense of his\n'elisions' and 'uncertainties' and aching absences of 'the most important\ninformation... that can give everything meaning' - but also in the\noccasional bursts or hints of numinous* presence* (especially in the\nrecurring eucharistic imagery and scenes): some of those moments of the\nmiraculous, especially when the Outsider manifests a glimpse of his\npresence - be it a gentle voice in the ear or a giant face in the sky - are\nspine tingling with the possibilities of spiritual realism for me. Not to\nmention that same presence that is felt, perhaps more slyly, but equally,\nin some of the exquisite moments of* agape* love exhibited by characters (I\nalways think of Silk-Horn caressing wee Olivine's metal head - yet another\nscene associated with the eucharist).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nThis past year I defended Wolfe's elisions and \"uncertainties\" by talking\nabout the fact that he is truly a spritual/mysterious writer: in reality,\nthe most important information, the one that can give everything meaning,\nis not present; it can be seen in structure and in existence, but not\novertly. Thus my reasoning for most of his narrators not having the full\npicture of the most important details of their condition: we as humans\ndon't quite have the full details just by looking at the facts we \"know\"\nwith certainty, but those aren't the most important things that really make\nsense of everything.\n\n--- On *Sat, 3/10/12, Craig Brewer * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo:" } ] }, { "message_id": "<149DE9141B1E48F6B49373E83B23ED61@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-10T20:34:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, there are substantial and obvious allusions to Christian symbols and \neven references to Jesus Christ in Long Sun and Short Sun. So I don’t see \nhow you can argue that Christianity is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[I restored the first sentence above. Why did you snip it?]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it isn't. Quasi-Christian symbols and concepts can be found from pre-Christ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "times on earth. Notably in the Egyptian and Roman cultures from which the Whorl society\nis most closely modelled upon. \n\nI don't think the presence of Christian-like symbols in ancient times means that means \nChristianity existed before Jesus Christ. So I don't think similar symbols in the story \nneed indicate Christianity in the Sun Series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clear references to Jesus of Nazareth are not “quasi-Christian symbols and concepts”. And did those societies have the Sign of the Cross? Did they have rosary beads?\n[I also do not find it convincing that the Whorl society is modelled on Egyptian and Roman cultures. Among the Cargo alone there is a huge variety of culture, as we can see in the context of Trigivaunt, Gaon etc.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a previous post I agreed with the possibility of the scenario Dan'l recently " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "posted: That Silk's vision of a Jesus-like guy was in fact Jesus Christ of earth\nand the Outsider draws the image from across universes to provide that vision. Like \nDan'l, I don't see much evidence of a Christ on Urth. Postulating a secret, hidden, \nsociety of Christians somewhere on Urth and unmentioned by the author just isn't very \nconvincing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t postulate a secret society of Christians, though I think it’s perfectly plausible that there are Christians on Urth, or members of an evolved version of Christianity. Quetzal is familiar with certain traditions that seem to come from a future version of Christianity or Islam (do you postulate a failed Prophet too?) We hear from Marble, I think, that Chems used to worship the Outsider back in Typhon’s day.\nAllah is referred to in the character name lists as “A forgotten god. (Perhaps an alternative name for the Outsider.)? How direct do you want Wolfe to be” " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you are unwilling to acknowlege that quasi-Christian symbolism existed before\nChrist on earth I could sorta see how the \"sign of addition\" might appear as proof \npostive that Christ existed on Urth. Still I would think the presence of haruspicy\n(divination via animal entrails) and augury (divination via flight patterns of birds)\nby the priests of Viron would at least hint that this is a pre-Christian, pagan sort \nof religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be pagan, but it is set in the future of a universe resembling our own. Nor is it a matter of a few random symbols, but a lot of very specific ones. And Jesus is very clearly referenced. Allah is even mentioned by name, and Quetzal gives us a mutated version of Genesis. \nIgnoring all this stuff won’t make it go away.\n \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T01:05:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<149DE9141B1E48F6B49373E83B23ED61@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clear references to Jesus of Nazareth are not “quasi-Christian symbols and\nconcepts”. And did those societies have the Sign of the Cross? Did they\nhave rosary beads?\n[I also do not find it convincing that the Whorl society is modelled on\nEgyptian and Roman cultures. Among the Cargo alone there is a huge variety\nof culture, as we can see in the context of Trigivaunt, Gaon etc.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The cross dates back to the stone age. Rosary beads are not native to\nChristianity. They were borrowed from the East. Most symbolism in\nChristianity can be traced directly to Mithraism.\n\nI do agree that the Whorl is modelled on several cultures, but the\nsacrificial system is an obvious reference to pre-Christian religions,\nincluding those of Rome and ancient Greece." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t postulate a secret society of Christians, though I think it’s\nperfectly plausible that there are Christians on Urth, or members of an\nevolved version of Christianity. Quetzal is familiar with certain\ntraditions that seem to come from a future version of Christianity or Islam\n(do you postulate a failed Prophet too?) We hear from Marble, I think,\nthat Chems used to worship the Outsider back in Typhon’s day.\nAllah is referred to in the character name lists as ?A forgotten god.\n (Perhaps an alternative name for the Outsider.)? How direct do you want\nWolfe to be?\\" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You will have to be more specific about he \"traditions\" you speak of. Their\npresence would not indicate anything either way, though.\n\nAs for Allah, that was not originally a reference to the god of the\nIsraelites, as I'm sure you know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may be pagan, but it is set in the future of a universe resembling our\nown. Nor is it a matter of a few random symbols, but a lot of very\nspecific ones. And Jesus is very clearly referenced. Allah is even\nmentioned by name, and Quetzal gives us a mutated version of Genesis.\nIgnoring all this stuff won’t make it go away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Genesis also predated Christianity, as I am also sure you know. When Silk\nglimpses Christ, could it be he is seeing a vision of the future, of a\nuniverse following his own?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5C0236.6040505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T01:39:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 20:07):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. Now I should be writing a lengthy reply, because the issues you raised \ndeserve it, but I have no time so I'll just have to be succint and not enter \ninto them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine of\nGod one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Notice I said:\n\n'The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all \nthe clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the Canaanites.'\n\nI meant two things here:\n\n1. It's unsophisticated because/if it's a *summary*.\n2. The violence in the first books of the OT just can't be glossed over. \nThose of us who stand by the whole canon should be ready to defend it with \nmore than just saying the people who wrote it were savages.\n\nA point I didn't make, but I think one of you Danielses invited it: no \namount of descriptions of ????? as merciful can make up for actions by him \nwhich seem to contradict it. Other things may, but not simple adjectives. \nAdjectives are cheap. Istr a passage (in Exodus?) where, a little after some \negregiously violent bit (or a recollection of one), ????? refers to himself \nas slow to anger and quick to forgive. That just won't do in its face. In my \nopinion it doesn't work for the Qur'an, so it doesn't work for the Bible \neither. We must be able to defend God better than that. I think we can. I \ndon't think we work hard enough." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T01:55:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5C0236.6040505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Those of us who stand by the whole canon should be ready to defend it with\nmore than just saying the people who wrote it were savages.'\n\nI tried to take a tentative stab at that in my earlier comments.\n\n 'no amount of descriptions of ????? as merciful can make up for actions by\nhim which seem to contradict it. Other things may, but not simple\nadjectives. '\n\nI believe I said God's mercy in the OT was emphasised continually by both\nascription *and* actions. And, frankly, the ascriptions DO matter very\nmuch in the way the Bible works, I think. But yes, they are always\naccompanied by their embodiment in divine action. I would begin by\npointing to the mercifully active CONTEXT that surrounds the Canaanite\nmassacre and so on. That is, the grace of CREATION itself (and again I\nemphasise that the opening chapters of Genesis portray a mighty AND\namazingly near, gracious, gentle, patient Creator - and just the sheer joy\nand goodness in the very creation itself reflecting God's worthiness to be\npraised and trusted. But also the divine compassion toward and rescue of\nthe Israelites (which I already pointed to). Furthermore, there is the\nplan for redemption of all humanity that unfolds from the earliest moments\nand then right through. These strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good\nreading of the Bible's own doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'\nand so on (which I certainly never said needed to be glossed over - indeed,\nI tried briefly to take a direct look at them and reason from my premises\nof God's goodness as to how to understand them in that framework).\n\nGood thoughts, Antonio.\n\n-DOJP\n\n2012/3/11 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 20:07):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep. Now I should be writing a lengthy reply, because the issues you\nraised deserve it, but I have no time so I'll just have to be succint and\nnot enter into them.\n\n The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not\npossibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine\nof\nGod one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Notice I said:\n\n'The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all\nthe clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the\nCanaanites.'\n\nI meant two things here:\n\n1. It's unsophisticated because/if it's a *summary*.\n2. The violence in the first books of the OT just can't be glossed over.\nThose of us who stand by the whole canon should be ready to defend it with\nmore than just saying the people who wrote it were savages.\n\nA point I didn't make, but I think one of you Danielses invited it: no\namount of descriptions of ????? as merciful can make up for actions by him\nwhich seem to contradict it. Other things may, but not simple adjectives.\nAdjectives are cheap. Istr a passage (in Exodus?) where, a little after\nsome egregiously violent bit (or a recollection of one), ????? refers to\nhimself as slow to anger and quick to forgive. That just won't do in its\nface. In my opinion it doesn't work for the Qur'an, so it doesn't work for\nthe Bible either. We must be able to defend God better than that. I think\nwe can. I don't think we work hard enough.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5C0632.3080406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T01:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (09-03-2012 15:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nGerry Quinn wrote (08-03-2012 14:42):\n\n > > The big problem I see with this interpretation is not the interpretation\n > > itself but that Wolfe mentions Jesus and yet seems to give no indication\n > > at all that this is the interpretation he is promoting. Suppose you were\n > > writing an alternate history where Hitler became a monk and WWII never\n > > occurred. Would you gratuitously insert a clear reference (and old piece\n > > of newsreel, say) to Hitler orating at a Nuremberg Rally, while never\n > > ever making any reference to Hitler taking vows? To me that seems\n > > analogous to what you are proposing as a “secret history” behind the\n > > Solar Cycle.\n\n > I don't know that I like to see *this particular* comparison between Jesus\n > and H?ttler. For some reason I can't explain, I find that more offensive\n > than, say, comparing religion to belief in the tooth fairy.\n\nI’m sorry you found it offensive. I wasn’t trying to make a comparison as\nsuch, just giving an example of how one would not write an alternate\nhistory. Hitler frequently features in alternate histories, and I selected\nhim more or less at random." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just didn't like to see H?ttler brought into the same room as Jesus. It's \nnot the comparison, it's the nearbyness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > But aside from that, I think Lee has a point. Taking 'our' Jesus for granted\n > just because there seems to have been *a* Jesus on Urth is legitimate but\n > not unquestionable. I find it unchristian to think the 'real' Church could\n > have failed (but of course that's a catholic view). Rather, either the Jesus\n > was the same but Humanity was fundamentally worse, or Humanity was more or\n > less the same but the Jesus wasn't really Jesus.\nWe don’t really know it has failed, though certainly it is a legitimate\nspeculation. New Sun simply doesn’t deal much with religion. In a previous\npost I suggested that putting Christianity centre stage would be problematic\nbecause New Sun is based on an SF conceit that to some extent mirrors the\nChristian story, with a physical New Sun (technically, the old sun renewed I\nsuppose) mirroring the Christian promise of Salvation.\n\n > Think of it - if God has already come to this world and it still ended up\n > the way Urth did, then what hope is there of it ever becoming right, Ushas\n > or no Ushas?\nWould you have argued the same during the Roman persecutions? Christianity\nwent through a bad time then and it might again. There are suggestions that\nTyphon may have done something similar.\nYou might even argue that it would be *worse* if the Church were visibly\npresiding over Urth in Severian’s time!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The issue here is that from the catholic/orthodox point of view, the Church \nis a living entity married to Christ. Though it may have its defining \ntraits, its ideology and whatnot, it is composed of people, just as you are \ncomposed of cells, and that's what gives it life and salvific powers, not \nthe ideology. If you establish a replica of the Church with the exact same \nideology and traits, it will be fake and its sacraments will be void. Maybe \nthat's where Wolfe departs from orthodox thinking, seeing as much of his \nwork has to do with identity and decoupling of mind and soul. But maybe not \n- if the soul of chems comes from some mysterious source, maybe a replica of \nthe Church could be made true by an action of God.\n\nThe roman persecutions came at the onset of the christian era. The Church \nwas in its infancy, it could hardly have done much to improve the World by then." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5C06EB.1080106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T01:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331356279.25471.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote (10-03-2012 05:11):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point is really that I don't quite understand the significance of the\n argument over whether the Christian symbolism which we all agree is one\nway or another \"there\" in the book must be read as pre-Christian or\nforgotten-Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From a christian's point of view, it should. The very idea of\n'forgotten-christian' is too bleak to bear. At least if one cares about the \nWorld. Many just think it's a lost cause." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T04:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5C06EB.1080106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer: Here's the link. Random q&a from the list a long time ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Craig. That was fanstastic! I'd seen excerpts from that interview \n\nbefore but never the whole thing.\n\n \n\nOne significant thing I noticed regarding the previous debate (which I acknowlege you\n\nfind moot) is this question and the form of the answer:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Q.Is the Outsider a spiritual God? Or another virtual being? ? A. The Outsider is a spiritual God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIf Gene Wolfe submitted his answer in writing and it was faithfully reproduced then the use of a\n\ncapital G does add evidence that he considers The Outsider to be our one, true Christian God.\n\n \n\nThe mention of Silk being broadly considered a member of the Order of Seekers of Truth and Penitence\n\nmakes some sense to me in light of a personal interpretation of the text which has been batted\n\naround here in the past. A certain passage leads me to believe that the animal sacrifice found in\n\nthe religion of Viron has its roots in human sacrifice back on Urth. The words of Typhon to Severian\n\nsuggest it and I think that's why Echidna brings it back by roasting Musk when given a chance.\n\n \n\n \n\nSo if Silk is seeking truth by cutting open animals, so were his antecedents, the Torturers, seeking\n\ntruth by cutting open humans (the penitence part could be debated later). I'm guessing this is what \n\nWolfe was getting at by the suggestion of \"Silk as Torturer\".\n\n \n\nOf course the issue of human sacrifice has a deeper pagan/religious significance. The barbaric nature\n\nof God in the OT by 21st century moral standards has been debated here. But I think most could agree\n\nthat pagan and barbaric as He might seem to some today, He was a cut above the other gods of the time\n\nby proscribing human sacrifice and demanding more personal diligence and greater sexual purity among \n\nhis followers.(imho, these qualities are what have made Judaism and Christianity [and Islam] the \n\npowerful cultural forces they remain to this day).\n\n \n\nI think the worst characters in the Sun Series might be marked by their propensity for human sacrifice\n\n(e.g. Baldanders).\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T04:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee: The cross dates back to the stone age. Rosary beads are not native to\nChristianity. They were borrowed from the East. Most symbolism in Christianity " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "can be traced directly to Mithraism. I do agree that the Whorl is modelled on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "several cultures, but the sacrificial system is an obvious reference to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pre-Christian religions, including those of Rome and ancient Greece." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThanks Nick. My own response to Gerry would have been about the same though\n\nprobably less erudite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Silk glimpses Christ, could it be he is seeing a vision of the future, of a\nuniverse following his own?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Dan''s view also and I can see the validity. My own initial view was that\n\nthe vision was of a Jesus on Urth who was not Christ. But if Gene Wolfe subscribes\n\nto the \"once for all\" view of Christ for the whole of the universe(s) and he considers\n\nThe Outsider to be an inter-universe deity then I could be wrong in that view. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5C2CC9.7090001@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T04:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<7BA34F6A17AD4A5880D5A947D4EFC303@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/10/2012 10:33 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Craig Brewer \n I forget which interview it is where Wolfe says that Silk is a member\nof the\n \"Order of the Seekers of Truth andPenitence\" ... which I think a lot\nof people\n (me included) interpreted as saying not that he's secretly a torturer,\nbut that\n the and the Seekers are actually members of \"The Church.\"\nI can’t say I have ever thought that, and to be honest I don’t find it\ncredible. The name is surely just an ironically appropriate one for the\nguild of Torturers. We are told of other guilds, chiefly the Animal\nTrainers and the Witches. All three guilds have weird, unique rituals\nand ceremonies. The Witches seem closer to a religion than the others.\nAs for the Torturers, they take their business seriously but not to my\nmind in a religious fashion. And their history insofar as it is\ndescribed is entirely secular, except that they have a patron saint ?\nwhich I think many guilds might do, even in the real world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian does remark on how the lore of the other guilds is largely the \nsame, and I don't think the guilds can be entirely secular, as they \nserve the head of the church, the Autarch. I would also think that if \nthey had no standing in the church, it would be a gross sacrilege to \nperform their ceremony of elevation in a chapel.\n\nIt's true they speak of initiates of religion in the third person, but \nthat could be their idiomatic way of referring to the priests and others \nin the church leadership, rather than the specialist service guilds. \nMasters may serve as vicars or deacons who minister to the journeymen, \napprentices, and clients." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37DC7BC20EFB4D708FA228F278FD037C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T11:19:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Gerry Quinn wrote:\nClear references to Jesus of Nazareth are not “quasi-Christian symbols and concepts”. And did\nthose societies have the Sign of the Cross? Did they have rosary beads?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cross dates back to the stone age. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn’t refer to the cross. I referred to the *Sign* of the Cross." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rosary beads are not native to Christianity. They were\nborrowed from the East. Most symbolism in Christianity can be traced directly to Mithraism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Prayer beads and knotted cords etc. existed before Christianity. Silk’s beads, however, have a cross and the beads come in decades. Do Mithraic beads have the same characteristics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Allah is referred to in the character name lists as ?A forgotten god. (Perhaps an alternative\nname for the Outsider.)? How direct do you want Wolfe to be?\\" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Allah, that was not originally a reference to the god of the Israelites, as I'm sure you know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly. But do you accept that Islam at least must have existed in Urth’s past? If so, it is hard to imagine a history that would have produced Islam but not Christianity.\n\n It may be pagan, but it is set in the future of a universe resembling our own. Nor is it a matter of a few random symbols, but a lot of very specific ones. And Jesus is very clearly referenced. Allah is even mentioned by name, and Quetzal gives us a mutated version of Genesis.\n Ignoring all this stuff won’t make it go away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Genesis also predated Christianity, as I am also sure you know. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Islam came after it. And everything before and after seems to be the same. Except you and others claim Christianity didn’t exist. And there seems to be no evidence for it whatsoever except vague speculations on what Wolfe would find theologically acceptable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Silk glimpses Christ, could it be he is seeing a vision of the future, \nof a universe following his own?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why should it be so? Are we given any indications whatsoever Besides, if such visions can come from the future, clearly the Incarnation has some potency in Silk’s universe anyway. \n\nFurthermore, that is only one reference to Jesus Christ. Consider the following (a pretty clear reference to the scourging of the moneylenders):\n?Remind them that the Outsider was known to esteem them last among men already, that according to the Writings he had once (having possessed and enlightened a fortunate man) beaten them severely in person.\n\nThat doesn’t come from Silk’s enlightenment. It comes straight from the Chrasmological Writings. It comes, therefore, from Urth’s past.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<60FA4D2A-49C8-40ED-9A89-8728ACA61BB3@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T13:36:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<37DC7BC20EFB4D708FA228F278FD037C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11/03/2012, ?s 11:19, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But do you accept that Islam at least must have existed in Urth’s past? If so, it is hard to imagine a history that would have produced Islam but not Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I've said before - imagine a History mostly like ours with a Jesus mostly like outs, but which wasn't actually God." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5CBCFB.30904@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T14:55:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<37DC7BC20EFB4D708FA228F278FD037C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/11/2012 6:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Nick Lee \n\n Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n > > Clear references to Jesus of Nazareth are not “quasi-Christian\nsymbols and concepts”. And did\n > > those societies have the Sign of the Cross? Did they have rosary beads?\n > The cross dates back to the stone age.\nI didn’t refer to the cross. I referred to the *Sign* of the Cross.\n > Rosary beads are not native to Christianity. They were\n > borrowed from the East. Most symbolism in Christianity can be traced\ndirectly to Mithraism.\nPrayer beads and knotted cords etc. existed before Christianity. Silk’s\nbeads, however, have a cross and the beads come in decades. Do Mithraic\nbeads have the same characteristics?\n\n > > Allah is referred to in the character name lists as “A forgotten\ngod. (Perhaps an alternative\n > > name for the Outsider.)? How direct do you want Wolfe to be?\\\n > As for Allah, that was not originally a reference to the god of the\nIsraelites, as I'm sure you know.\nCertainly. But do you accept that Islam at least must have existed in\nUrth’s past” If so, it is hard to imagine a history that would have\nproduced Islam but not Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that it's that hard. Allah was one of the gods of the Kaaba, \nwhom Mohammed's father served in a debased, idolatrous form of Judaism. \nMohammed sought to reform this, and was forced to flee by the unhappy \nestablishment. It's my understanding that he wasn't until then that he \nlearned of Christianity, and apparently only got a half-baked version of \nit then." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331485653.24273.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T17:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5CBCFB.30904@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 3/11/12, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, March 11, 2012, 7:55 AM\nOn 3/11/2012 6:19 AM, Gerry Quinn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Nick Lee \n\n? ???Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But do you accept that Islam at least must\nhave existed in\nUrth’s past? If so, it is hard to imagine a history\nthat would have\nproduced Islam but not Christianity.\n\nI don't see that it's that hard. Allah was one of the gods\nof the Kaaba, whom Mohammed's father served in a debased,\nidolatrous form of Judaism. Mohammed sought to reform this,\nand was forced to flee by the unhappy establishment. It's my\nunderstanding that he wasn't until then that he learned of\nChristianity, and apparently only got a half-baked version\nof it then.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\nTexarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry if I misquoting above, I believe the pertinent question above is by Gerry - a history with Islam but without Christ. I agree fully with him, especially in light of those two missionaries in the Botanical Garden and the reference to Christ at the beginning of Long Sun. All these cultural myths, like the one of Adam and Eve and the tree that Quetzal mentions (different names, I think) and even the uniforms of the Catholic church being worn by the clergy in the whorl make it very clear to me there are echoes of Christianity and our history, from Aurelius quotes on down. It is too huge of a stretch to imagine everything is the same but Jesus. That is not a stretch in Wizard Knight's cosmology - it is particularly a medieval world without Christianity." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T17:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331485653.24273.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But do you accept that Islam at least must have existed in Urth’s past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHm. I'm not aware of any Muslim members of this board. If there were, \n\nwould they find evidence of their faith in the Sun Series? Perhaps in the \n\nnumerous star and moon references. Maybe in the culture of Trivigaunte?\n\nWhat would it mean if such evidence were present? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<591BE48A-F80E-416A-8791-69CCEEFDEC14@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T17:29:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331485653.24273.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11/03/2012, ?s 17:07, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is too huge of a stretch to imagine everything is the same but Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose you mean 'but without Jesus'. Otherwise, it's no stretch at all to imagine *similar* (they aren't necessarily the same) things and a similar Jesus - but one who was merely a man and whose church was not divinely upheld." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9CE088D5-CBCC-49CC-AE87-4308121F951F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T17:42:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11/03/2012, ?s 01:55, Daniel Petersen escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Those of us who stand by the whole canon should be ready to defend it with more than just saying the people who wrote it were savages.'\n\nI tried to take a tentative stab at that in my earlier comments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 'no amount of descriptions of ????? as merciful can make up for actions by him which seem to contradict it. Other things may, but not simple adjectives. '\n\nI believe I said God's mercy in the OT was emphasised continually by both ascription and actions. And, frankly, the ascriptions DO matter very much in the way the Bible works, I think. But yes, they are always accompanied by their embodiment in divine action. I would begin by pointing to the mercifully active CONTEXT that surrounds the Canaanite massacre and so on. That is, the grace of CREATION itself (and again I emphasise that the opening chapters of Genesis portray a mighty AND amazingly near, gracious, gentle, patient Creator - and just the sheer joy and goodness in the very creation itself reflecting God's worthiness to be praised and trusted. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. Gensos starts off tenderly. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But also the divine compassion toward and rescue of the Israelites (which I already pointed to). Furthermore, there is the plan for redemption of all humanity that unfolds from the earliest moments and then right through." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though I think a Christian should be able to defend the OT *also* in strictly Jewish terms. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " These strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good reading of the Bible's own doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's in the injunction to spare no breathing Canaanite that warrants those quotes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and so on (which I certainly never said needed to be glossed over - indeed, I tried briefly to take a direct look at them and reason from my premises of God's goodness as to how to understand them in that framework)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think context is very important when reading the OT, and by that I mean not simply the explicit context but everything that isn't said. When we read Wolfe we are aware of an immense untold backstory, and it isn't different with the OT. Those books build on a lot that we have no direct access to. And our assumptions may lead us astray. For instance, I'm convinced Jephthah's daughter lived a long life, but most commentators have historically assumed otherwise - all because the story is laconic and suggestion goes a long way." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T18:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<9CE088D5-CBCC-49CC-AE87-4308121F951F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 'Though I think a Christian should be able to defend the OT *also* in\nstrictly Jewish terms.'\n\nAgreed. That's partly why I'm not down with the OT God is just the best\nthey could come up with at the time theory. I think they were already\nworshiping a good, holy, beautiful God. And many of them were worshiping\nhim beautifully - that's why I take exception to the one-sided construal of\nGod as nasty in the OT when there is SO much beauty in that library from\nboth God and people - it's just not as simple as 'here's some evidence of\nbrutality, etc., so it's clearly not legit'. Sometimes I wonder if I'm\nreading the same OT as its critics (and 'friends').\n\nThese strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good reading of the Bible's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "own doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'\n\n\nWhat's in the injunction to spare no breathing Canaanite that warrants\nthose quotes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether we consciously realise it or not I think we all take the word\n'genocide' to have built into its definition a negative moral judgment -\nthat it is a word that describes a certain kind of evil and injustice, a\nlarge-scale *murder* (wrongful killing). If a holy God did command the\nIsraelites to completely eradicate the Canaanites, then by definition that\nGod cannot have committed or commanded 'genocide' as understood in the way\nI have just described. There must have been divine justice and goodness in\nwhat he willed. I tentatively went into that before, especially where I\nemphasised that it's always important to remember God can eternally\nconsole, compensate, and surpass all that one suffers in this fallen life,\nincluding being unfortunately part of a people he decided had to be done\nliving this life (goes for the Flood too - and indeed, the fact that every\nhuman dies one way or another). The promise of a New Heavens and a New\nEarth (even already in the OT - e.g. Isaiah) shows too that God doesn't\nvalue some ethereal state over a bodily one, but that we have to WAIT for a\nrenewed bodily existence that is not suffering from the effects of sin. I\nbelieve that billions of people taken out of this life too early and so on\nare going to be rejoicing in a glorified material life infinitely greater\nthan this one and not a one of them will be complaining about the earlier\nphase. But, of course, it's understandable that we struggle with\nbitterness and unbelief in this veil of tears. (Also, I should mention, of\ncourse, that if we believe in God as Judge at all, we have to make room for\nhim to condemn the wicked - in this life or the next. But both OT and NT\nteach consistently that he does so exceedingly reluctantly and does NO\ninjustice in his 'final call' on everyone.)\n\n 'I'm convinced Jephthah's daughter lived a long life, but most\ncommentators have historically assumed otherwise - all because the\nstory is laconic and suggestion goes a long way.'\n\nThis is an important example story: either way it is interpreted in regard\nto his daughter, it was NOT a divine command that he do this, but his own\nconception of how to live as an Israelite in a book that records a time\nwhen everyone was 'doing what was right in their own eyes'. There's TONS\nof that kind of stuff in the OT as well. Just because some bloke\ndismembers a woman, doesn't mean God approved of it! Yeesh. Explicit\ncontext is important as well. (That's not directed to you - just a general\nvent.)\n\nBut yes, I take your point about what's *un*said in both Wolfe and the\nBible. I think what I'm trying to say here about a truly, recognisably\ngood God in the OT (even if at times inscrutable - a theme the OT writers\noften take up, but from a place of trust and worship) is really crucial to\nunderstanding the theism in Wolfe's fiction. I'm convinced he draws from a\nGOOD God in the OT very strongly to write his own modern Exoduses and so\non. And that he draws from that as much as from the NT and later Catholic\ndoctrine.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:42 PM, wrote:\nNo dia 11/03/2012, ?s 01:55, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> escreveu:\n\n'Those of us who stand by the whole canon should be ready to defend it\nwith more than just saying the people who wrote it were savages.'\n\nI tried to take a tentative stab at that in my earlier comments.\n\n\nYes.\n\n 'no amount of descriptions of ????? as merciful can make up for actions\nby him which seem to contradict it. Other things may, but not simple\nadjectives. '\n\nI believe I said God's mercy in the OT was emphasised continually by both\nascription *and* actions. And, frankly, the ascriptions DO matter very\nmuch in the way the Bible works, I think. But yes, they are always\naccompanied by their embodiment in divine action. I would begin by\npointing to the mercifully active CONTEXT that surrounds the Canaanite\nmassacre and so on. That is, the grace of CREATION itself (and again I\nemphasise that the opening chapters of Genesis portray a mighty AND\namazingly near, gracious, gentle, patient Creator - and just the sheer joy\nand goodness in the very creation itself reflecting God's worthiness to be\npraised and trusted.\n\n\nIndeed. Gensos starts off tenderly.\n\nBut also the divine compassion toward and rescue of the Israelites (which\nI already pointed to). Furthermore, there is the plan for redemption of\nall humanity that unfolds from the earliest moments and then right through.\n\n\nThough I think a Christian should be able to defend the OT *also* in\nstrictly Jewish terms.\n\n These strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good reading of the Bible's\nown doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'\n\n\nWhat's in the injunction to spare no breathing Canaanite that warrants\nthose quotes?\n\nand so on (which I certainly never said needed to be glossed over -\nindeed, I tried briefly to take a direct look at them and reason from my\npremises of God's goodness as to how to understand them in that framework).\n\n\nI think context is very important when reading the OT, and by that I mean\nnot simply the explicit context but everything that isn't said. When we\nread Wolfe we are aware of an immense untold backstory, and it isn't\ndifferent with the OT. Those books build on a lot that we have no direct\naccess to. And our assumptions may lead us astray. For instance, I'm\nconvinced Jephthah's daughter lived a long life, but most commentators have\nhistorically assumed otherwise - all because the story is laconic and\nsuggestion goes a long way.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T18:56:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI didn’t refer to the cross. I referred to the *Sign* of the Cross.\n\nThe original signing of the cross was done on the forehead, and\nChristianity might have learned the practice from Mithraism. This is\nsketchy stuff, honestly, but Wolfe is not known to follow the mainstream in\nhis presentation of history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Prayer beads and knotted cords etc. existed before Christianity. Silk’s" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "beads, however, have a cross and the beads come in decades. Do Mithraic\nbeads have the same characteristics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry. I did not mean to suggest that mithraists used rosaries. I was\nreferring to the Far East. Rosaries are adapted from malas. Yes, they are\norganized in groups of ten in some faiths. As a side note, can you make out\nhow many beads are on Silk's rosary from the text? The figure I come up\nwith doesn't make any sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly. But do you accept that Islam at least must have existed in\nUrth’s past? If so, it is hard to imagine a history that would have\nproduced Islam but not Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no evidence of Islam, per se. As was already pointed out, \"Allah\"\npredates Islam. Something like Islam may have arisen as well, but I don't\nsee it as strictly necessary. There is no mention of most of human history\nin the Sun books, and what we do get is sometimes different. There is no\nmention any nations we would recognize, and the stories were receive of the\npast are always patchworks.\n\nThis discussion is complicated partly because the Sun universe is a\ndeveloping one, and Wolfe may have had different ideas when he was writing\nNew Sun from when he wrote Long Sun. For example, while I hold that\nDionysus is important in later works, I don't see him explicitly referenced\nin New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why should it be so? Are we given any indications whatsoever Besides, if\nsuch visions can come from the future, clearly the Incarnation has some\npotency in Silk’s universe anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I agree with what you're saying. As for why it should be so, it is\nbecause I find this interpretation more interesting.\n\n\nFurthermore, that is only one reference to Jesus Christ. Consider the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "following (a pretty clear reference to the scourging of the moneylenders):\n?Remind them that the Outsider was known to esteem them last among men\nalready, that according to the Writings he had once (having possessed and\nenlightened a fortunate man) beaten them severely in person.\n\nThat doesn’t come from Silk’s enlightenment. It comes straight from the\nChrasmological Writings. It comes, therefore, from Urth’s past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Book of Nehemiah, which predates the NT.\n\nI don't dispute that a religion like Christianity existed on Urth. Indeed,\nmany religions like Christianity exist and have existed on Earth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T19:55:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are rather a lot of questions in play here, which I think it\nmight help to distinguish between.\n\nOne is whether Christianity actually exists within the universe of the\nsolar cycle. Now, I think there's lots of evidence that something very\nlike - amazingly like - Christianity does. there are the patron\nsaints, like Katharine and Barbara (and Wolfe in COTO makes it clear\nthat Holy Katharine is indeed the Christian saint of that name). There\nare crosses, rosaries, the paschal candle, the Angelus. There seem to\nbe at least two passages in the Chrasmologic writings derived from the\nNew Testament - the beating of traders, and 'the sign from the belly\nof the fish'. I think there is also a reference to the New Testament\nin Dr Talos's play, 'raising sons form stones', though there is\nanother possible source for that. (Certainly Old Testament references\nare more common.) There is Severian's dream of a ritual taking place\nin the Citadel chapel, before the sun was darkened, involving bread\nand wine. I'm sure each of these things individually - except the\nsaints. I guess - could be traced to another source, but cumulatively\nI think they point to a religion closely modelled on Christianity\nhaving existed at some point in the past of Urth. This in any case is\nplausible given that the past of Urth so closely follows that of our\nworld, including Fair Rosamund and Lewis Carroll and the freemen of\nLombardy - without Christianity it would surely be very different.\n\nThis, however, does not imply that the founder of this religion\nactually is Christ - he might be merely a prophet - and while I don't\nthink it can be settled absolutely, I'm inclined to think that he is\nmerely a prophet, because that fits in better with the 'forms of the\nOutsider' passage at the beginning of OBW - it looks as if there are\nmany people through whom the Outsider manifests himself, none of whom\nis actually identical with him, rather than a single person who is the\nOutsider made manifest.\n\nAnother question is whether the Outsider is the Christian God. That\ncan be true even if there is no Christ in this world, since Christians\nbelieve that God was active in the world before the coming of Christ -\nand while Old Testament material isn't directly relevant to the\nquestion 'is Christianity present?', it is relevant to this question,\nsince Christians believe that the God of the Old Testament is their\nGod. I think there is a wealth of reference that does link the\nOutsider with the Christian God - and, as I've said elsewhere, I think\nthe passages that link him with pagan gods can be read in a way that\ndoesn't conflict with this.\n\nYet another question is to what extent the work is _symbolically_\nChristian - which it might be without any overt Christian references\nat all (think of _Harry Potter_). I think in some respects it clearly\nis, perhaps most obviously in the life of Severian - whom Wolfe has\ndescribed as a Christian figure, and elsewhere 'to the extent that\nthere is a Christ figure it is Severian, though he is not Christ'. The\nmost blatant parallel, I guess, is his temptation by Typhon, but there\nare also his turning water into wine, his death and resurrection\naccompanied by an earthquake, and indeed the idea of a Conciliator.\nAfter all, the pagan gods who are referred to in the series, aren't, I\ntake it, literally present either - the Whorl gods aren't literally\nthe same people as the pagan gods from whom they take their names and\nattributes, but they are understood through symbolism derived from\nthose gods. I think there is equally stuff that should be understood\nthrough symbolism derived from Christianity." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T22:22:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nick Lee wrote:\nThat doesn’t come from Silk’s enlightenment. ?It comes straight from the\nChrasmological Writings. ?It comes, therefore, from Urth’s past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the Book of Nehemiah, which predates the NT." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Nehemiah beat the moneylenders - he just lectured them -\nbut in any case the point is moot, because the passage doesn't in fact\nmention moneylenders, but traders in sacrificial animals - and that\nseems very definitely to be a New Testament reference. (By Wolfe. What\nit was for the chrasmologic writers is a more complex question.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T22:31:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio wrote:\n\nNo dia 11/03/2012, ?s 17:07, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is too huge of a stretch to imagine everything is the same but Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose you mean 'but without Jesus'. Otherwise, it's no stretch at all to imagine *similar* (they aren't necessarily the same) things and a similar Jesus - but one who was merely a man and whose church was not divinely upheld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he might be merely a man (in the sense of 'not God') and yet his\nchurch be divinely upheld. It seems that the Outsider is in some way\nbehind this church, since it is through it that he got into the\nChrasmologic Writings; and the Outsider is a real god who answers\nprayer. (I would say _the_ real God, on theological, symbolic and\nextra-textual Wolfean grounds; but at the very least a real god.) It\nseems to be part of the meaning of the text - and I suspect part of\nWolfe's real belief - that God reveals himself through religions other\nthan the absolutely true one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5D3113.4040804@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T23:11:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331485653.24273.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/11/2012 12:07 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSorry if I misquoting above, I believe the pertinent question above is by Gerry - a history with Islam but without Christ. I agree fully with him, especially in light of those two missionaries in the Botanical Garden and the reference to Christ at the beginning of Long Sun. All these cultural myths, like the one of Adam and Eve and the tree that Quetzal mentions (different names, I think) and even the uniforms of the Catholic church being worn by the clergy in the whorl make it very clear to me there are echoes of Christianity and our history, from Aurelius quotes on down. It is too huge of a stretch to imagine everything is the same but Jesus. That is not a stretch in Wizard Knight's cosmology - it is particularly a medieval world without Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Couldn't the Christian Church cultural elements have sprung from a \nchurch following a different khristos, like John the Baptist?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5D343A.3010208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-11T23:24:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/11/2012 1:56 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nI see no evidence of Islam, per se. As was already pointed out, \"Allah\"\npredates Islam. Something like Islam may have arisen as well, but I\ndon't see it as strictly necessary. There is no mention of most of human\nhistory in the Sun books, and what we do get is sometimes different.\nThere is no mention any nations we would recognize, and the stories were\nreceive of the past are always patchworks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Land of Virgins = Virginia" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T02:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 06/03/2012, ?s 14:46, Antonin Scriabin escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"But it's not all subjective, right?\"\n\nA case can be made that it is all subjective, because we can never know the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank postmodernism). <349.gif> I just think talking about \"primary\" vs. \"other\" and \"lesser\" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of fiction; especially when people use phrases like \"an allusion to\" as code for \"this part of the text means\". It is one thing to trace allusions, and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one universe or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books, and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we know he is a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the pagan ones. And I highly doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the \"literary analysis toolkit\" he wants us to bring to his works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I've stated boringly to tears, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me almost certain that either Briah's Jesus wasn't the Son of God or Briah's Humanity is fundamentally worse than us. I can't envision a world that has already been visited by Christ degenerating into Urth. Iow, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me believe the Christian trappings of Briah are more form than substance. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331520091.41246.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T02:41:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 3/11/12, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, March 11, 2012, 7:39 \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nAs I've stated boringly to tears, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me almost certain that either Briah's Jesus wasn't the Son of God or Briah's Humanity is fundamentally worse than us. I can't envision a world that has already been visited by Christ degenerating into Urth. Iow, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me believe the Christian trappings of Briah are more form than substance.\n\n\n\nI don't want to go around and around, but, unlike many mystical religious writers, Wolfe is a keen observer of the world. He has lived through a war personally, has seen men killed, has passed through DETROIT and Chicago. He knows that there is hell on earth and on urth, in this day and age, and still believes in Christ.\n\nThere are some things going on in the inner city that make Urth seem not that bad at all. How could Christ be Christ with all the bad things that happen today? this is why i don't find the argument convincing -?terrible things happen to good people and vice versa in reality, but that doesn't deter Wolfe from his beliefs. there is no reason to posit everything is the same except Christ in Urth when the real world is so ugly at times, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331524124.71161.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T03:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331520091.41246.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \n--- On Sun, 3/11/12, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I've stated boringly to tears, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me almost certain that either Briah's Jesus wasn't the Son of God or Briah's Humanity is fundamentally worse than us. I can't envision a world that has already been visited by Christ degenerating into Urth. Iow, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic that makes me believe the Christian trappings of Briah are more form than substance. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to go around and around, but, unlike many mystical religious writers, Wolfe is a keen observer of the world. He has lived through a war personally, has seen men killed, has passed through DETROIT and Chicago. He knows that there is hell on earth and on urth, in this day and age, and still believes in Christ.\n\nThere are some things going on in the inner city that make Urth seem not that bad at all. How could Christ be Christ with all the bad things that happen today? this is why i don't find the argument convincing -?terrible things happen to good people and vice versa in reality, but that doesn't deter Wolfe from his beliefs. there is no reason to posit everything is the same except Christ in Urth when the real world is so ugly at times, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to agree, Marc. The Commonwealth doesn't strike me as clearly worse than much of A.D. Earth history. Ascia is more totalitarian than any tyranny I know of, but on the other hand, we don't have superpowerful sea monsters controlling our tyrannies. We also aren't suffering from a depletion of resources, notably including sunlight, the way Urth is. And being in contact with a more technologically powerful but not directly helpful culture (the Hierowhatevers) is often harmful. Wolfe handles that resentment well, I think (possibly inspired by Asimov's \"dirty Spacers\").\n\n\nLee takes the sea monsters and the inhumi as evidence that there hasn't been an Incarnation, if I understand him correctly, but I don't think Christians see Christ as having disposed of physical monsters. At most it would be allegorical. (\"Done is a battell on the dragon blak.\")? The flood that Severian causes may wipe out the sea monsters, though it hardly seems likely, but that still leaves the inhumi--do they need another flood?\n\nDespite all this, I'm inclined to think the only Incarnation in the Lupiverse is the one in our universe, and its effects in Briah are transdimensional. But I don't think there's any way to prove it. And as Craig Brewer said, it doesn't strike me as all that important.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T04:11:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331524124.71161.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I don't want to go around and around, but, unlike many mystical " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "religious writers, Wolfe is a keen observer of the world. He has lived through " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a war personally, has seen men killed, has passed through DETROIT and Chicago. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He knows that there is hell on earth and on urth, in this day and age, and still " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "believes in Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think this misses Antonio's point and does miss mine (and I think the point \n\nWolfe is trying to make). Of course there are spritually bad things in our world.\n\nThere always will be. But since the arrival of Jesus Christ, we've had a choice; an \n\nan option for salvation that was not available before Christ.\n\n \n\nThere is no Christian salvation available anywhere in the Sun Series. Not on Urth, \n\nnot on Ushas, not on the Whorl or Blue or Green, not even in Yesod. I can't buy\n\nthe Quinnian speculation that \"maybe there is a secret enclave of Christians that\n\nWolfe never mentions...\". How could Wolfe fail to mention something so critical and\n\nimportant?\n\n \n\n \n\nIt disturbs Antonio to think Wolfe wanted to create a world where Christ's \"once for\n\nall\" sacrifice has been relegated to the dung heap and I understand that. Urth, Ushas\n\nThe Whorl, Green and Blue all resemble portions of pre-Christian earth. Even Yesod is \n\na gnostic paradise, not Christian. At the end of UotNS, Ushas worships Pega, Odilo, \n\nThais and Severian. At the end of RttW there are vampires swarming and monsters in the\n\nsea and godlings running around The whorl.\n\n \n\nGene Wolfe says he believes in the reality of pagan gods and monsters. I have not seen\n\nany of those who find Christ on Urth willing to tackle this elephant in the living room.\n\n \n\nDoes WOlfe think we have pagan gods and sea monsters ruling earth now? I don't think so. \n\nThese were part of a pre-Christian world. So I think when he creates an allegorical\n\nuniverse ruled by pagan gods and monsters in the sea, it is his way of creating a\n\n*pre*-Christian universe.\n\n \n\nI suppose you could argue that Briah is a Christian universe and he just included the sea\n\nmonsters and vampires and gnostic angels to add some cool, science fictiony elements. I\n\nfind the opposing scenario to be more plausible, interesting and literarily significant. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331525798.91743.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T04:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331524124.71161.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So all the discussion of whether or not there was a Christ in Briah got me thinking about the actual textual reasons to think that Urth might not actually be Earth.\n\nUnless I'm wrong, that idea comes largely from an interview. I seem to recall part of Urth of the New Sun that might be more direct on that point, but I'm not sure.\n\nSo, first, could someone point me to those places where Wolfe says that this happened in another iteration of the universe? (Was it an Afterward...?)\n\nBut, second, here's the interview where he talks about the idea.\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html\n\nI quoted the pertinent bit below, but I want to point out a couple of things. First, he never exactly says that Briah is not our universe. He says that he \"toyed\" with the idea, that it \"might have been\" like that, and the idea of a universe being destroyed and remade is \"picturesque language...figurative language\" that isn't literal.\n\nSo my real question here is how sure we are that Urth isn't just Earth in the future, our future? (And if I'm just completely overlooking something obvious, my apologies, especially if it's in _Urth of the NS_...that's always been the slipperiest one to me.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\nGW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like\nreally and that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to\nhappen to us if we just keep going the way we are going and\ncontinue to live on the continent of Earth without ever really\ngoing into the sea or going into space and we just wait for the\nmoney to run out. The do nothing future and thinking about what\nthat would be. And then I got into the idea of universal cycles.\nAnd decided that I would show that this might be a past cycle. Some\nphysicists at least think that the Big Bang is eventually going to\nbe followed by a Big Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces\nagain which will be followed by another Big Bang which is sort of\nlike a succession of universe as piston impulses in an internal\ncombustion engine. I certainly don't have any great emotional\ninvestment in that idea but I do think it is a useful idea to play\naround with. Physics is coming nearer and nearer and nearer\nmysticism. It has been doing this now for over 50 years and it\nseems to me that is a fascinating thing that much too little\nattention has been given to.\nJJ: That poses something of a difficulty in terms of Christian\neschatology if there is to be a time and there is a resurrection\nwhere the world comes to an end. Are you making an attempt to unify\nthose two ideas or just to play with the idea of a gnostic universe?\nGW: I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than trying to\nmake sense of them. Is our resurrection going to be in another\nuniversal cycle? Well, yes, maybe it is. I don't know. We don't know\nwhat is really meant by the world coming to an end, and God rolling\nup the sky like a carpet and all that. It is all picturesque\nlanguage. Figurative language to try to give a general idea to an\naudience that would not be capable of understanding the actuality.\nAnd I am not sure we are more capable of understanding that\nactuality than they were. It is like the Genesis story. I don't\nbelieve in a literal apple and I don't believe that literally\nbiting into the fruit had this effect but if you have to explain to\na bunch of primitives how men differ from animals and where men\nwent wrong in differing from animals, this is a pretty good way to\ndo it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331526734.98968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T04:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does seem, though, that some of the argument about what's in the story is based on the assumption that the world of Urth must be consistent with Wolfe's view of the world in some literal details. Let's say that he does believe that pagan gods were (or are) real. That doesn't mean, of course, that every pagan god in his (speculative) fiction must line up with his ideas of what they really are. The same with his Christian beliefs. I mean, I get Antonio's sense of the tragedy of a world that loses Christ...but maybe that's better to tell Severian's story. It certainly seems that it makes Severian's successes all the more impressive and full of grace if he can try to act like Christ in a world that can't tell him Christ's story. In some ways it's more hopeful.\n\nBut there is one other point: in New Sun, all history is misremembered history. Everything has changed \nfrom its source. The Conciliator is of course a nod to a Christian \nstory, and we're supposed to recognize it as such. Every other story \nthat's alluded to in the Brown Book or in any other story works the same way: we're supposed to go, \"Hey! That sounds like Frankenstein!\" or \nwhatever, and then to see how it goes in weird directions that retain \nparts of the story and adopt aspects that are fundamentally different. \nSo part of the challenge of the story is figuring out what to do with \ntales that are always told indirectly. After all, knowing Christ's story doesn't necessarily make it easy for a vast swath of humanity to avoid \nsin, right? So make that central story even murkier, and Severian's \nchallenge becomes all the more difficult.\n\nBut that's all speculation. A lot of what-if's and could-be's, not something in the text. And that'swhy I wrote the last email: I'm muddy first just on where in the stories (and not the interviews) we actually know that this isn't our future.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:11 PM\nSubject: (urth) The Wizard\nMarc Aramini: I don't want to go around and around, but, unlike many mystical " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "religious writers, Wolfe is a keen observer of the world. He has lived through " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a war personally, has seen men killed, has passed through DETROIT and Chicago. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He knows that there is hell on earth and on urth, in this day and age, and still " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "believes in Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this misses Antonio's point and does miss mine (and I think the point \n\nWolfe is trying to make). Of course there are spritually bad things in our world.\n\nThere always will be. But since the arrival of Jesus Christ, we've had a choice; an \n\nan option for salvation that was not available before Christ.\n\n\n\nThere is no Christian salvation available anywhere in the Sun Series. Not on Urth, \n\nnot on Ushas, not on the Whorl or Blue or Green, not even in Yesod. I can't buy\n\nthe Quinnian speculation that \"maybe there is a secret enclave of Christians that\n\nWolfe never mentions...\". How could Wolfe fail to mention something so critical and\n\nimportant?\n\n\n\n\n\nIt disturbs Antonio to think Wolfe wanted to create a world where Christ's \"once for\n\nall\" sacrifice has been relegated to the dung heap and I understand that. Urth, Ushas\n\nThe Whorl, Green and Blue all resemble portions of pre-Christian earth. Even Yesod is \n\na gnostic paradise, not Christian. At the end of UotNS, Ushas worships Pega, Odilo, \n\nThais and Severian. At the end of RttW there are vampires swarming and monsters in the\n\nsea and godlings running around The whorl.\n\n\n\nGene Wolfe says he believes in the reality of pagan gods and monsters. I have not seen\n\nany of those who find Christ on Urth willing to tackle this elephant in the living room.\n\n\n\nDoes WOlfe think we have pagan gods and sea monsters ruling earth now? I don't think so. \n\nThese were part of a pre-Christian world. So I think when he creates an allegorical\n\nuniverse ruled by pagan gods and monsters in the sea, it is his way of creating a\n\n*pre*-Christian universe.\n\n\n\nI suppose you could argue that Briah is a Christian universe and he just included the sea\n\nmonsters and vampires and gnostic angels to add some cool, science fictiony elements. I\n\nfind the opposing scenario to be more plausible, interesting and literarily significant. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5D888F.3050706@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T05:24:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/11/2012 9:39 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAs I've stated boringly to tears, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a\ncatholic that makes me almost certain that either Briah's Jesus wasn't\nthe Son of God or Briah's Humanity is fundamentally worse than us. I\ncan't envision a world that has already been visited by Christ\ndegenerating into Urth. Iow, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic\nthat makes me believe the Christian trappings of Briah are more form\nthan substance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose Urth could be post-Rapture, but really, nothing he describes \nin BotNS is as bad as has happened on our post-Crucifixion earth. 19th \nand 20th century Asia in particular endured a string of large scale \natrocities, one of which is still going on strong in the DPRK where \nWolfe must have personally met some of its future victims." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5D8C2F.20907@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T05:39:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331525798.91743.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/11/2012 11:16 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nSo my real question here is how sure we are that Urth isn't just Earth\nin the future, our future? (And if I'm just completely overlooking\nsomething obvious, my apologies, especially if it's in _Urth of the\nNS_...that's always been the slipperiest one to me.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe it was originally written that way, but the drowning of Urth \nmakes it seem as if the G-d of Noah has broken His promise to never \nagain destroy the earth by water. Narratively, aliens did it, but it's \nclear that the narrator understands the hand of God is behind all \nevents, so it's still God doing the destroying. This would make it a \nblasphemous text, except that after URTH came out, Wolfe said he \nconsidered Urth to be in a previous creation cycle than our Earth, which \nsounds like butt-covering after the fact to me.\n\nNot that I blame him. It would be a damn shame for such a magnificent \nstory to be marginalized or even withdrawn because of an innocent \nmistake on the part of the author. Literature becomes great in spite of \nits flaws, not from their absence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5DD543.8040505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T10:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331520091.41246.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (12-03-2012 02:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On *Sun, 3/11/12, Ant?nio Pedro Marques //* wrote:\n\n\n From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n Subject: Re: (urth) The Wizard\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Sunday, March 11, 2012, 7:39\n\n As I've stated boringly to tears, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a\n catholic that makes me almost certain that either Briah's Jesus wasn't\n the Son of God or Briah's Humanity is fundamentally worse than us. I\n can't envision a world that has already been visited by Christ\n degenerating into Urth. Iow, it's the knowledge that Wolfe is a catholic\n that makes me believe the Christian trappings of Briah are more form\n than substance.\n\nI don't want to go around and around, but, unlike many mystical religious\nwriters, Wolfe is a keen observer of the world. He has lived through a war\npersonally, has seen men killed, has passed through DETROIT and Chicago. He\nknows that there is hell on earth and on urth, in this day and age, and\nstill believes in Christ.\nThere are some things going on in the inner city that make Urth seem not\nthat bad at all. How could Christ be Christ with all the bad things that\nhappen today? this is why i don't find the argument convincing - terrible\nthings happen to good people and vice versa in reality, but that doesn't\ndeter Wolfe from his beliefs. there is no reason to posit everything is the\nsame except Christ in Urth when the real world is so ugly at times, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a matter of evil existing or not. Evil has even been done in \nChrist's name, and arguably continues to be. It's a matter of there \nappearing to be no generally available path for salvation on Urth. I don't \nmean 'no christian path' - I mean I don't see evidence for achievement on \nUrth being more than urthly pursuits, one or two characters excepted. And \nunlike our DPRK or similar places, Urth has *devolved* into what it is. But \nI'm not saying it must have been that way - no Christ -, I'm saying it's \neither that or a failed Humanity. Perhaps my reading is coloured too by the \ninterview one of you just quoted - from the onset I've looked at Urth as \nwhat Earth 'may become' if we are not up to the challenge of making it \nbetter. In that perspective, it doesn't matter much whether Urth is Earth or \nnot - it's a possible future, at least as far as our abilities are concerned." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5DD656.8080501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T10:56:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I *think* we are mostly in agreement, Daniel.\n\nDaniel Petersen wrote (11-03-2012 18:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Though I think a Christian should be able to defend the OT *also* in\nstrictly Jewish terms.'\n\nAgreed. That's partly why I'm not down with the OT God is just the best\nthey could come up with at the time theory. I think they were already\nworshiping a good, holy, beautiful God. And many of them were worshiping\nhim beautifully - that's why I take exception to the one-sided construal of\nGod as nasty in the OT when there is SO much beauty in that library from\nboth God and people - it's just not as simple as 'here's some evidence of\nbrutality, etc., so it's clearly not legit'. Sometimes I wonder if I'm\nreading the same OT as its critics (and 'friends')." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " These strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good reading of the\n Bible's own doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " What's in the injunction to spare no breathing Canaanite that warrants\n those quotes?\n\n\nWhether we consciously realise it or not I think we all take the word\n'genocide' to have built into its definition a negative moral judgment -\nthat it is a word that describes a certain kind of evil and injustice, a\nlarge-scale /murder/ (wrongful killing). If a holy God did command the\nIsraelites to completely eradicate the Canaanites, then by definition that\nGod cannot have committed or commanded 'genocide' as understood in the way I\nhave just described. There must have been divine justice and goodness in\nwhat he willed. I tentatively went into that before, especially where I\nemphasised that it's always important to remember God can eternally console,\ncompensate, and surpass all that one suffers in this fallen life, including\nbeing unfortunately part of a people he decided had to be done living this\nlife (goes for the Flood too - and indeed, the fact that every human dies\none way or another). The promise of a New Heavens and a New Earth (even\nalready in the OT - e.g. Isaiah) shows too that God doesn't value some\nethereal state over a bodily one, but that we have to WAIT for a renewed\nbodily existence that is not suffering from the effects of sin. I believe\nthat billions of people taken out of this life too early and so on are going\nto be rejoicing in a glorified material life infinitely greater than this\none and not a one of them will be complaining about the earlier phase. But,\nof course, it's understandable that we struggle with bitterness and unbelief\nin this veil of tears. (Also, I should mention, of course, that if we\nbelieve in God as Judge at all, we have to make room for him to condemn the\nwicked - in this life or the next. But both OT and NT teach consistently\nthat he does so exceedingly reluctantly and does NO injustice in his 'final\ncall' on everyone.)\n\n'I'm convinced Jephthah's daughter lived a long life, but most commentators\nhave historically assumed otherwise - all because the story is laconic\nand suggestion goes a long way.'\n\nThis is an important example story: either way it is interpreted in regard\nto his daughter, it was NOT a divine command that he do this, but his own\nconception of how to live as an Israelite in a book that records a time when\neveryone was 'doing what was right in their own eyes'. There's TONS of that\nkind of stuff in the OT as well. Just because some bloke dismembers a\nwoman, doesn't mean God approved of it! Yeesh. Explicit context is\nimportant as well. (That's not directed to you - just a general vent.)\n\nBut yes, I take your point about what's /un/said in both Wolfe and the\nBible. I think what I'm trying to say here about a truly, recognisably good\nGod in the OT (even if at times inscrutable - a theme the OT writers often\ntake up, but from a place of trust and worship) is really crucial to\nunderstanding the theism in Wolfe's fiction. I'm convinced he draws from a\nGOOD God in the OT very strongly to write his own modern Exoduses and so on.\n And that he draws from that as much as from the NT and later Catholic\ndoctrine.\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5DE323.5060800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-12T11:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5D8C2F.20907@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/12/2012 1:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 3/11/2012 11:16 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So my real question here is how sure we are that Urth isn't just Earth\nin the future, our future? (And if I'm just completely overlooking\nsomething obvious, my apologies, especially if it's in _Urth of the\nNS_...that's always been the slipperiest one to me.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe it was originally written that way, but the drowning of Urth \nmakes it seem as if the G-d of Noah has broken His promise to never \nagain destroy the earth by water. Narratively, aliens did it, but it's \nclear that the narrator understands the hand of God is behind all \nevents, so it's still God doing the destroying. This would make it a \nblasphemous text, except that after URTH came out, Wolfe said he \nconsidered Urth to be in a previous creation cycle than our Earth, \nwhich sounds like butt-covering after the fact to me.\n\nNot that I blame him. It would be a damn shame for such a magnificent \nstory to be marginalized or even withdrawn because of an innocent \nmistake on the part of the author. Literature becomes great in spite \nof its flaws, not from their absence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you say \"originally,\" do you mean during the writing of the first \nvolume? Where in the narration do you think the idea evolved that Urth \nmay be in the past?\n\nUrth of the New Sun certainly seems to allow (or even prove) a \n\"theologized\" past Urth, while Shadow seems to be straight out of Vance. \nI am sure Wolfe's concerns evolved as he wrote New Sun---he says as much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0E46D00C869547BCB020D15A20FA0114@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T13:19:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5D8C2F.20907@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: []\n\nJust to lay down my thoughts on these issues, mostly on the subject of religion:\n\n1. Iterations\n\nFirst, iterated universes. Wolfe did indicate that he was playing with the idea. The chapter “the Key to the Universe” in CotA does indicate that this idea made it into the story:\n\n“As the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.”\n\nWe are told that it is unknown whether Urth is in a past or future iteration, or in our own:\n\n“From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth.”\n\nThat is how I read it. Maybe Wolfe said something out of text to indicate that it is intended to be past or future, but the text does not indicate it and clearly is not intended to indicate it. I am unconvinced by those who feel only a specific answer fits their theological beliefs, or fits Wolfe’s for that matter.\n\n\n2. Religion in BotNS (as distinct from Long and Short Sun)\n\nReligion here is to some extent generic far future religion, though not mocked as it is in Vance. Christ is not mentioned. Several names are used for God, indicating some sort of common religious culture or at least vocabulary, but there is no indication that everyone believes the same things. If Christianity still exists somewhere (and in BotNS there is no indication of it) it is well off stage. But on the other hand, Severian’s story has strong unmistakeable echoes of the Christian story. \n\nI think Christianity is deliberately off stage to allow Severian’s mirroring of it to take the foreground. How could you have both, artistically speaking, without raising tons of irrelevant questions? It would be as silly as having Jesus wandering about in Narnia. It would just get in the way of what the author is doing.\n\n\n3. Religion in BotLS and BotSS\n\nReligion is much more to the foreground here, obviously. Silk is, as Wolfe has said, a good man in a bad religion. But even a bad religion holds part of the truth, if only because it leads people to ask the right questions and do the right things. Silk is not wrong to thank Pas for the creation of the Whorl.\n\nSilk receives enlightenment from the Outsider, who has been relegated to a minor role in the pantheon of the Nine, but whom we can identify from an abundance of textual evidence as the True God, worshipped by Christians and many others. Some of that textual evidence clearly evokes Christianity and Christ, and much — though not all - of the paraphernalia of Silk’s religion appears to derive from it, albeit with more primitive elements superimposed on it [there is no suggestion that the primitive elements were there first: this is not a religion that grew organically but one constructed by a Monarch who had great control over the minds and bodies of his subjects].\n\nAre the gods in Long Sun real? Of course we see that the Whorl gods are indeed personalities grounded physically in the universe, and with powers that can legitimately be called divine, at least in their corner of the cosmos. Silk himself becomes such a god, in the end. And the gods themselves can develop towards true divinity; even if they are servants/creatures of the True God they may be divine to lower beings (there are echoes of this in Wizard Knight).\n\nWhere does Dionysus fit in? He is just one more god or concept of god, primitive and flawed in some respects, but no less real a god. He can be a form of the Outsider, no more and no less than can Severian, or Silk, or Kypris, or Pas, or Jesus. And while Silk identifies the Outsider as the name of the True God, others have other names for Him (Allah is another name that is mentioned). No man (or lesser god) can approach understanding of him — I think we are told something like that, at least, in New Sun. [Consider the definition of Absolute Infinity — it is defined as that infinity every one of whose properties is also held by some lesser infinity. Cantor himself equated Absolute Infinity with God.]\n\nDionysus gets referred to as the son of Thyone. I don;t recall him actually doing anything in the story. i don’t even know if he was just mentioned in old stories of the Chrasmological Writings, or whether there was a Whorl Dionysus, a mate of Typhon’s who took that name. I don’t believe Dionysus is of any particular importance; that is to say, if there had been no references at all, or references to some other ancient god, I don’t know how that would cause me to read the books differently.\n\nWhat about the Incarnation? First, this is not really a past, present or future Earth, it is a universe created by Gene Wolfe. Whatever he believes does not necessarily apply here, and something equivalent to the Incarnation might well take a different form there. [Frankly, I don’t any Jesuit would be shocked if you proposed that it may take a different form on different planets of our own universe.] Secondly, I would guess that Wolfe’s belief in the truth of Catholicism does not mean he believes it is more than an imperfect reflection of the unknowable absolute truth. Short version: leave the dogmas of twenty-first century Catholicism, Dionysism, or any other ?ism out when analysing this piece of fiction.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5E0505.2020206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T14:15:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<0E46D00C869547BCB020D15A20FA0114@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (12-03-2012 13:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Short version: leave the dogmas of twenty-first century Catholicism,\nDionysism, or any other ?ism out when analysing this piece of fiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's dogma and there's meaningfulness." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T15:33:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<0E46D00C869547BCB020D15A20FA0114@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWhat about the Incarnation? First, this is not really a past, present or\nfuture Earth, it is a universe created by Gene Wolfe. Whatever he believes\ndoes not necessarily apply here, and something equivalent to the Incarnation\nmight well take a different form there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you misunderstand how creativity works for Catholic\nfantasists. While free to subcreate a Catholic fantasist seeks to\nimitate the work of God in doing so. Thus, for example, Tolkien calls\nthe Ainur \"gods\" but makes it very clear that they are in effect\narchangelic powers subject to and created by the One God Eru Iluvatar,\nand that even the world they \"make\" is given actuality by the word of\nEru.\n\nI believe that, similarly, Wolfe is careful in his subcreation to\nalways subordinate himself and his work to the work of God. Whatever\nkind of goddish beings may be present, whatever mythologies present\nthemselves, whatever manner and amount of universes are present, all\nultimately owe their existence and their loyalty (however\nmiunderstood) to the One God, the Increate and Pancreator, who stands\nbeyond all His creations as the Outsider. Only in one universe does He\nstep Inside as the Incarnate God, the Theoanthropos, and it is through\nthat Incarnation that whatever salvation is possible, is possible in\n_any_ universe.\n\nAll this is necessary in order for Wolfe's creations not to be\nblasphemous, and I believe he takes great care to maintain that\nnecessity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? [Frankly, I don’t any Jesuit would\nbe shocked if you proposed that it may take a different form on different\nplanets of our own universe.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think they would, at least if it involved a sacrificial death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Secondly, I would guess that Wolfe’s belief\nin the truth of Catholicism does not mean he believes it is more than an\nimperfect reflection of the unknowable absolute truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here we, and orthodox Catholic theology, are in agreement. Catholicism\nbelieves it has the true and best understanding possible for us of the\nholy things, but acknowledges that they are ultimately mysteries\nbeyond our finite understanding. Though many Catholics still believe\nthat the gods of other faiths are demons, modern Catholic teaching has\nit that they (at least most of them) are imperfect approaches to the\ntruth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Short version: leave\nthe dogmas of twenty-first century Catholicism, Dionysism, or any other\n?ism out when analysing this piece of fiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here, on the other hand, we disagree completely. To ignore Wolfe's\nbeliefs is to do the work a great violence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5E4407.9010608@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T18:44:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5DE323.5060800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/12/2012 6:50 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 3/12/2012 1:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not that I blame him. It would be a damn shame for such a magnificent\nstory to be marginalized or even withdrawn because of an innocent\nmistake on the part of the author. Literature becomes great in spite\nof its flaws, not from their absence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you say \"originally,\" do you mean during the writing of the first\nvolume? Where in the narration do you think the idea evolved that Urth\nmay be in the past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was during the writing of *all* the volumes I-IV and URTH, \nwith the past iteration idea coming post-URTH." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331579747.19106.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T19:15:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5E4407.9010608@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 3/12/12, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:44 AM\nOn 3/12/2012 6:50 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/12/2012 1:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not that I blame him. It would be a damn shame for\nsuch a magnificent\nstory to be marginalized or even withdrawn because\nof an innocent\nmistake on the part of the author. Literature\nbecomes great in spite\nof its flaws, not from their absence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When you say \"originally,\" do you mean during the\nwriting of the first\nvolume? Where in the narration do you think the idea\nevolved that Urth\nmay be in the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it was during the writing of *all* the volumes I-IV\nand URTH, with the past iteration idea coming post-URTH.\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are comments like the few extant builings surviving so many centuries of futurity in the afterwords that at least indicate the fictional GW did not know if was from the past, if indeed the manuscript WAS supposed to be from the past, and let us know the frame translator thinks he is dealing with something from the future. I always felt that previous iteration was something of a retcon due to the nature of the deluge in light of the Covenant, but I am not above saying that maybe Gene planned it as a possible previous iteration all along.\n\nWe really can't get to the bottom of that one - I do think that there are echoes of Christ everywhere in New Sun, from the myths of the conciliator to Sev reenacting the temptation in the desert, almost as if even if you didn't ever hear of Him His story is still living. HOWEVER, Sev going back and actually living the life of the conciliator kind of shoots some holes in that, so I think it is ultimately ... ambiguous. Say it ain't so!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F5E5192.6070507@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T19:42:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331579747.19106.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/12/2012 2:15 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThere are comments like the few extant builings surviving so many centuries of futurity in the afterwords that at least indicate the fictional GW did not know if was from the past, if indeed the manuscript WAS supposed to be from the past, and let us know the frame translator thinks he is dealing with something from the future. I always felt that previous iteration was something of a retcon due to the nature of the deluge in light of the Covenant, but I am not above saying that maybe Gene planned it as a possible previous iteration all along.\n\nWe really can't get to the bottom of that one - I do think that there are echoes of Christ everywhere in New Sun, from the myths of the conciliator to Sev reenacting the temptation in the desert, almost as if even if you didn't ever hear of Him His story is still living. HOWEVER, Sev going back and actually living the life of the conciliator kind of shoots some holes in that, so I think it is ultimately ... ambiguous. Say it ain't so!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ambiguity, the devil's volleyball\n\nI'm somewhat guilty of this myself. I run fantasy roleplaying games, and \nafter a while it becomes second nature to couch prophecies and oracles \nfigurative language and to use unreliable characters as mouth pieces so \nthat when a player figures out a consistent explanation, I can run with \nit as if I had totally planned it that way all along." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T20:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5E5192.6070507@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI run fantasy roleplaying games, and\nafter a while it becomes second nature to couch prophecies and oracles\nfigurative language and to use unreliable characters as mouth pieces so that\nwhen a player figures out a consistent explanation, I can run with it as if\nI had totally planned it that way all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hee -- I do exactly the same thing!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331583356.97576.YahooMailNeo@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-12T20:15:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nerds of a feather ... \n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI run fantasy roleplaying games, and\nafter a while it becomes second nature to couch prophecies and oracles\nfigurative language and to use unreliable characters as mouth pieces so that\nwhen a player figures out a consistent explanation, I can run with it as if\nI had totally planned it that way all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hee -- I do exactly the same thing!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T20:50:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<1331579747.19106.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are comments like the few extant builings surviving so many centuries \nof futurity in the afterwords that at least indicate the fictional GW did not know\n if was from the past, if indeed the manuscript WAS supposed to be from the past, \nand let us know the frame translator thinks he is dealing with something from the\n future. I always felt that previous iteration was something of a retcon due to \nthe nature of the deluge in light of the Covenant, but I am not above saying that\n maybe Gene planned it as a possible previous iteration all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We shouldn’t mix up the different meanings of “past” and “future”. We know from “The Key to the Universe” that every iteration is fairly similar to the next, and we may assume that they contain buildings that are similar.\n\nWhen Wolfe speaks of a building that has “survived so many centuries of futurity” he is speaking ironically of a building that has lasted from now until this iteration’s equivalent of Severian’s time. (Perhaps the Witches Tower is one such — if I recall correctly it is steel-framed, a technique that is obsolete in Severian’s time. No matter — he may not have had any particular building in mind.) \n\nHe’s not saying anything about iterations in this passage, just indicating that Severian’s time is very far in the future in terms of calendar time. The picture in the library may be of an Apollo astronaut, or it may be from the equivalent of the Apollo program carried out by the dawn men of Severian’s iteration.\n\nNo building in the ordinary sense could survive through the end of one iteration and into the next. Earth and all its iterations will each be destroyed in the cosmic implosion at the end of their iteration.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-12T21:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupiverse(s) was Re: The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNo building in the ordinary sense could survive through the end of one\niteration and into the next." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be sure. Nor could Severian's manuscript. But it is cast into the\ncurrents of time -- is it possible that the occasional spaceship\n(which Severian thinks of as a tower) could also be adrift there?\n\nJust ponderin'." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-13T22:18:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard", "in_reply_to": "<4F5DD656.8080501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great if so. (That surely doesn't happen too often on this board, ha!)\n\n-DOJP\n\n2012/3/12 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I *think* we are mostly in agreement, Daniel.\n\nDaniel Petersen wrote (11-03-2012 18:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'Though I think a Christian should be able to defend the OT *also* in\nstrictly Jewish terms.'\n\nAgreed. That's partly why I'm not down with the OT God is just the best\nthey could come up with at the time theory. I think they were already\nworshiping a good, holy, beautiful God. And many of them were worshiping\nhim beautifully - that's why I take exception to the one-sided construal\nof\nGod as nasty in the OT when there is SO much beauty in that library from\nboth God and people - it's just not as simple as 'here's some evidence of\nbrutality, etc., so it's clearly not legit'. Sometimes I wonder if I'm\nreading the same OT as its critics (and 'friends').\n\n These strike me as FAR more fundamental to a good reading of the\n Bible's own doctrine of God than incidences of 'genocide'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " What's in the injunction to spare no breathing Canaanite that warrants\n those quotes?\n\n\nWhether we consciously realise it or not I think we all take the word\n'genocide' to have built into its definition a negative moral judgment -\nthat it is a word that describes a certain kind of evil and injustice, a\nlarge-scale /murder/ (wrongful killing). If a holy God did command the\nIsraelites to completely eradicate the Canaanites, then by definition that\nGod cannot have committed or commanded 'genocide' as understood in the\nway I\nhave just described. There must have been divine justice and goodness in\nwhat he willed. I tentatively went into that before, especially where I\nemphasised that it's always important to remember God can eternally\nconsole,\ncompensate, and surpass all that one suffers in this fallen life,\nincluding\nbeing unfortunately part of a people he decided had to be done living this\nlife (goes for the Flood too - and indeed, the fact that every human dies\none way or another). The promise of a New Heavens and a New Earth (even\nalready in the OT - e.g. Isaiah) shows too that God doesn't value some\nethereal state over a bodily one, but that we have to WAIT for a renewed\nbodily existence that is not suffering from the effects of sin. I believe\nthat billions of people taken out of this life too early and so on are\ngoing\nto be rejoicing in a glorified material life infinitely greater than this\none and not a one of them will be complaining about the earlier phase.\n But,\nof course, it's understandable that we struggle with bitterness and\nunbelief\nin this veil of tears. (Also, I should mention, of course, that if we\nbelieve in God as Judge at all, we have to make room for him to condemn\nthe\nwicked - in this life or the next. But both OT and NT teach consistently\nthat he does so exceedingly reluctantly and does NO injustice in his\n'final\ncall' on everyone.)\n\n'I'm convinced Jephthah's daughter lived a long life, but most\ncommentators\nhave historically assumed otherwise - all because the story is\nlaconic\nand suggestion goes a long way.'\n\nThis is an important example story: either way it is interpreted in\nregard\nto his daughter, it was NOT a divine command that he do this, but his own\nconception of how to live as an Israelite in a book that records a time\nwhen\neveryone was 'doing what was right in their own eyes'. There's TONS of\nthat\nkind of stuff in the OT as well. Just because some bloke dismembers a\nwoman, doesn't mean God approved of it! Yeesh. Explicit context is\nimportant as well. (That's not directed to you - just a general vent.)\n\nBut yes, I take your point about what's /un/said in both Wolfe and the\nBible. I think what I'm trying to say here about a truly, recognisably\ngood\nGod in the OT (even if at times inscrutable - a theme the OT writers often\ntake up, but from a place of trust and worship) is really crucial to\nunderstanding the theism in Wolfe's fiction. I'm convinced he draws from\na\nGOOD God in the OT very strongly to write his own modern Exoduses and so\non.\n And that he draws from that as much as from the NT and later Catholic\ndoctrine.\n\n-DOJP\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] } ] }