{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6181", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6181, "subject": "Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2012-03-14T20:37:38+00:00", "last": "2012-03-15T17:39:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-14T20:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, I haven't chimed in for a while (and haven't really had anything\nurth-shattering to add in any event), but a few things from recent\ndiscussions have caught my eye and brought up questions for me.\n\n\n1) Christianity in the world of Urth\nThe question has been around a long time, no? Was there Christianity in\nthe past of Urth, or is this a universe without Christ? Is this a universe\nwhich prefigures ours, with echos of the Christian story in it, but without\nthe physical incarnation of Christ which would enact the salvic effect of\nthat incarnation? My question, which I can't recall seeing discussion of,\nbut doubtless has in fact been picked apart and answered in a number of\nways already, is this:\n\nIf the guild of torturers practices a rite central to their mythology and\nclose to the very nature of their order, a rite which involves a character\nnamed Catherine who's story we can easily and readily track to the real and\nactual Saint Catherine of our world, doesn't that strongly indicate the\npresence, in the distant past of Urth, of a real Christianity? The very\nexistence of saints, and of this one in with details so similar to the\ndetails of the story we know of Saint Catherine, seems to beg the question\nfor me. How could you have her story without having first had Christ?\n What sorts of 'close but not identical' circumstances could have existed\nto give rise to this exceptionally similar story to our own?\n\nIs this simply a function and artifact of the translation gimmick? Gene\nWolfe the discoverer of the manuscript attempting to translate\nuntranslatable elements by placing in terms and whole myths with which we\nare familiar?\n\nWhat has past thinking on this board done with this question?\n\n\nSo, now, and\n2) The Flood: Is it a spiritual act of renewal/genocide, or pretty much\njust a physical by-product of the gravitational effect of the white\nfountain giving the sun the ol' hot beef injection? It was recently\npointed out that in the future of Master Ash, most humans had escaped and\ndispersed to the four corners of the universe. This was, no doubt, a much\nbetter outcome for the individuals of Urth, many if not most of whom could\nhave gone on to live lives of some meaning and worth. Better than being\ndrowned, for sure. But the Heiro's have a plan. They want to turn Man\ninto themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy. Severian\npasses that test, and man is found worthy, but not *as he is*. Gather the\nwheat and burn the chaff. If man has been shown to have the potential for\nevolving into the next stage, there must be the correct setting for such\n(the renewal of the Urth's resources as Ushas) and the removal and washing\nclean of all of the habits, traits and declining traditions which brought\nHumanity into the negative judgement in the first place, said judgement\nhaving resulted in the black hole sun.\n\nIn this sense, I think Severian, and the qualities which have been honed in\nhim by his magnificent journey, takes on perhaps his most 'christian' role\noff stage in the series. I wish I had the book in front of me, but the few\nthings he says to the new Humanity on Ushas sound very Christlike to me.\n Looked at as a god, his every word will serve as, at least in part, the\nbasis for a new moral direction for man. Urth and Severian have both been\nput through the fire, and what is left is metal ready to be tempered to a\nfiner degree than what was possible before. So there is a physical and yet\nquite spiritual dimension to the flooding of Urth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-14T21:37:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, Jordon. Good to \"see\" you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato wrote:\nIf the guild of torturers practices a rite central to their mythology and\nclose to the very nature of their order, a rite which involves a character\nnamed Catherine who's story we can easily and readily track to the real and\nactual Saint Catherine of our world, doesn't that strongly indicate the\npresence, in the distant past of Urth, of a real Christianity? “The very\nexistence of saints, and of this one in with details so similar to the\ndetails of the story we know of Saint Catherine, seems to beg the question\nfor me. ?How could you have her story without having first had Christ” “What\nsorts of 'close but not identical' circumstances could have existed to give\nrise to this exceptionally similar story to our own”\n\nIs this simply a function and artifact of the translation gimmick?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to think so -- indeed, the translator seems to substitute\nsaints' names for whatever past/future terminology people of the\nCommonwealth use to name themselves. (And it won't do to say that\nthose names are direct; look how much the names of well-known saints\nhave changed in common usage after just two thousand years: e.g.,\nCephas --> Petrus --> Peter.)\n\nThe concept of saints isn't intrinsically Christian, either; Buddhism\nhas something that we translate as \"Buddhist saints.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F611B4B.9030208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-14T22:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/14/2012 3:37 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nBut the Heiro's have a plan. They want\nto turn Man into themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh!!! Tzadkiel spells it out: A humanlike race became the godlike \nHieros and ascended from Briah. Their forsaken servant creatures became \nthe angelike Yesodis and called themselves Hierogrammates and Hierarchs \nand Hierodules, but by the time they ascended from Briah to Yesod, the \nHieros were gone. The Yesodis now seek to guide and manipulate humanity \ninto becoming like the Hieros so the Yesodis can ascend with them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-14T23:05:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "<4F611B4B.9030208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff, yes, that was what I was trying to say. Thanks. I didn't take the\ntime to lay it out correctly. My main point is that this uplifting of\nhumanity is the purpose of the flood, not just as a consequence of the\nWhite Fountain.\n\nDan'l,\n\nClearly a lot of the Saints names were added by the translator, we know\nthis. But, it's the RITUAL that I'm concerned with. Did the translator\nadd that in? Because the wheel, the roses, the striking off of the head,\nall of that is REALLY from Catherines story, regardless of her name. That\nis the story of Saint Catherine. So, did the translator completely add in\nall of that for some reason? Or did all of that stuff really occur to\nSeverian. And if it happened, it is following the story of a Christian\nSaint, who wouldn't have existed to generate the story if there hadn't been\na Christianity.\n\nAnd, if we ARE saying that he added in or manipulated that element of the\nstory, then every single detail of Sev's journey becomes so suspect as to\nbecome nearly meaningless (which of course is very Wolfean anyway).\n\nSo how about that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 3/14/2012 3:37 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Heiro's have a plan. They want\nto turn Man into themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Argh!!! Tzadkiel spells it out: A humanlike race became the godlike Hieros\nand ascended from Briah. Their forsaken servant creatures became the\nangelike Yesodis and called themselves Hierogrammates and Hierarchs and\nHierodules, but by the time they ascended from Briah to Yesod, the Hieros\nwere gone. The Yesodis now seek to guide and manipulate humanity into\nbecoming like the Hieros so the Yesodis can ascend with them.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B83D0B4-EAD1-4625-89E1-1DFD208E543F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T01:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "<4F611B4B.9030208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 14/03/2012, ?s 22:27, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/14/2012 3:37 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Heiro's have a plan. They want\nto turn Man into themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Argh!!! Tzadkiel spells it out: A humanlike race became the godlike Hieros and ascended from Briah. Their forsaken servant creatures became the angelike Yesodis and called themselves Hierogrammates and Hierarchs and Hierodules, but by the time they ascended from Briah to Yesod, the Hieros were gone. The Yesodis now seek to guide and manipulate humanity into becoming like the Hieros so the Yesodis can ascend with them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why don't we call them yerus, or better yet yarus. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F614D29.1000103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-15T02:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "<3B83D0B4-EAD1-4625-89E1-1DFD208E543F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/14/2012 9:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 14/03/2012, ?s 22:27, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/14/2012 3:37 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Heiro's have a plan. They want\nto turn Man into themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Argh!!! Tzadkiel spells it out: A humanlike race became the godlike Hieros and ascended from Briah. Their forsaken servant creatures became the angelike Yesodis and called themselves Hierogrammates and Hierarchs and Hierodules, but by the time they ascended from Briah to Yesod, the Hieros were gone. The Yesodis now seek to guide and manipulate humanity into becoming like the Hieros so the Yesodis can ascend with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why don't we call them yerus, or better yet yarus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yahoos?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T02:08:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "<4F614D29.1000103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perfect! 'Yahoos' it is. Jeff?\n\n\nNo dia 15/03/2012, ?s 02:00, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/14/2012 9:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 14/03/2012, ?s 22:27, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 3/14/2012 3:37 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But the Heiro's have a plan. They want\nto turn Man into themselves, they want to uplift us, if we prove worthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Argh!!! Tzadkiel spells it out: A humanlike race became the godlike Hieros and ascended from Briah. Their forsaken servant creatures became the angelike Yesodis and called themselves Hierogrammates and Hierarchs and Hierodules, but by the time they ascended from Briah to Yesod, the Hieros were gone. The Yesodis now seek to guide and manipulate humanity into becoming like the Hieros so the Yesodis can ascend with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why don't we call them yerus, or better yet yarus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yahoos?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F61762F.7040402@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T04:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/14/2012 9:08 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nPerfect! 'Yahoos' it is. Jeff?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may prevent their confusion with the Hieros, but replacing that with \nthe confusion about why they're called yahoos doesn't strike me as a \nparticularly gainful exchange." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331787446.29938.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T04:57:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jordon Flato " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l,\n\n\nClearly a lot of the Saints names were added by the translator, we know this. “But, it's the RITUAL that I'm concerned with. ?Did the translator add that in” “Because the wheel, the roses, the striking off of the head, all of that is REALLY from Catherines story, regardless of her name. ?That is the story of Saint Catherine. ?So, did the translator completely add in all of that for some reason” ?Or did all of that stuff really occur to Severian. ?And if it happened, it is following the story of a Christian Saint, who wouldn't have existed to generate the story if there hadn't been a Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that follows. Universes are similar to each other, and might affect each (through \"morphic resonance\"?). So maybe there could have been a very Catherine-like story, and even a very Christianity-like religion, without an incarnation.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T11:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "<1331787446.29938.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: But, it's the RITUAL that I'm concerned with. Did \nthe translator add that in? Because the wheel, the roses, the \nstriking off of the head, all of that is REALLY from Catherines \nstory, regardless of her name. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Universes are similar to each other, and might affect \neach (through \"morphic resonance\"?). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. Or you could argue that earth culture such as Catherine's story,\nFrankenstein and the Rubiyat have echoed down the corridors of time\nback to Urth, as Dr. Talos describes.\n \nYou could argue that Urth cannot be earth because it would mean God\nis breaking his Covenant with a second Flood. Or you could argue that\nhumanity has changed sufficiently to the point that the Covenant was\nrendered null and void.\n \nLike many other points of contention in Wolfe's work, the evidence is a \nNecker cube or Old Lady/Young Lady, and can be seen differently from \ndifferent perspectives. Both are correct. The incorrect position is \nasserting that there is only one way to see it properly.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F62294B.7020402@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-15T17:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint Catherine and the Nature of the Flood", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/15/2012 6:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: But, it's the RITUAL that I'm concerned with. Did\nthe translator add that in? Because the wheel, the roses, the\nstriking off of the head, all of that is REALLY from Catherines\nstory, regardless of her name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thricetimes Argh!! I did not say this." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }