{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6184", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6184, "subject": "Fish", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2012-03-16T19:31:22+00:00", "last": "2012-03-16T21:09:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T19:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The fish motif is scattered so far and wide I \ndon't know whether it has specific meaning or a general one. \nCertainly it has a link to early Christianity's \"sign of the fish,\" \nwhich suggests furtiveness, but not necessarily secret or esoteric \nknowledge. On the other hand, Wolfe is quite familiar with the Nag \nHammadi scrolls, where Jesus is clearly shown to withhold plain knowledge \nfrom \"the people\" and reserve it for the apostles. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAren't all Wolfe motifs scattered far and wide, inhabiting the\ninterstices of the text like white wolves in the Secret House?\n \nTrue, fish themes are splashed across the Sun Series from B and F's\nkelpie origin to Scylla to Seawrack to \"good fishing!\". I agree there\nis probably a broad general meaning there. \n \nBut there's the fish's mouth subset of that. If Typhon and Severian's\ntete a tete is meant to reference the temptation of Christ, then as\nsurely the fish's mouth is meant to reference the story where Peter is\ntold by Jesus to pay his taxes with a coin he'll find in the mouth of\nthe next fish he catches.\n \nI can't help but think Wolfe's reference to this story points out that\nwhile Christ is associated with universal spritual salvation, Jesus was\na guy who made a number of instructive points with simple magic and \nparlour tricks such as this. Likewise for Severian's life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who knows what sign Agia scratched in the dirt?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, a certain class or species of Wolfe reader that's who. ;- ). The text\nline is: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it \nwas wreathed with letters I did not know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNow I know there are some readers who get lost in the story and can't escape\ninterpreting the words as though they are really from a not-so-bright young\nman with a good memory, from a world not really our own. Nothing wrong in that.\n \nBut personally, I must also keep in mind that these words are really being produced \nby a very clever, middle aged man from our own time who is deeply immersed in religion\nand mythology. Severian may have one thing to say to us, while Wolfe is saying\nsomthing else, using the same words.\n \nSo, we could think Agia has scratched a map (to where?). Or perhaps think it is really\nsomething unknowable. Or we could realize that the word \"Jurupari\" was not likely \nto have been thrown in there casually.\n \nLearning that a Jurupari is a S.American demon who captures people in his cave-\nlike mouth and is also a cichlid fish which broods eggs in its mouth I must connect\nit with the star named Fomalhaut (fish's mouth) and the Ouroboros story in which \nmen are swallowed in a cave-like mouth and probably the cave of the man-apes in\nwhich some monstrous presence lurks below.\n \nAdd the mention of a fishy monster like Abaia who is so large he could easily\nbrood a school of daughter undines in his mouth, and a picture of what Agia was \nreferencing with her drawing becomes, if not perfectly clear, at least a bit more \nin focus. (I believe this also helps us understand the relationship between The\nMother and Seawrack) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1331930370.11380.YahooMailNeo@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-16T20:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________________________\n From: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:31 PM\nSubject: (urth) Fish\n \n\nBut there's the fish's mouth subset of that. If Typhon and Severian's\ntete a tete is meant to reference the temptation of Christ, then as\nsurely the fish's mouth is meant to reference the story where Peter is\ntold by Jesus to pay his taxes with a coin he'll find in the mouth of\nthe next fish he catches.\n\nI can't help but think Wolfe's reference to this story points out that\nwhile Christ is associated with universal spritual salvation, Jesus was\na guy who made a number of instructive points with simple magic and \nparlour tricks such as this. Likewise for Severian's life.\n\n____________________________________________\nI don't know the story but I agree that the juxtaposition must mean something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it \nwas wreathed with letters I did not know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\nLearning that a Jurupari is a S.American demon who captures people in his cave-\nlike mouth and is also a cichlid fish which broods eggs in its mouth I must connect\nit with the star named Fomalhaut (fish's mouth) and the Ouroboros story in which \nmen are swallowed in a cave-like mouth and probably the cave of the man-apes in\nwhich some monstrous presence lurks below.\n\nAdd the mention of a fishy monster like Abaia who is so large he could easily\nbrood a school of daughter undines in his mouth, and a picture of what Agia was \nreferencing with her drawing becomes, if not perfectly clear, at least a bit more \nin focus. (I believe this also helps us understand the relationship between The\nMother and Seawrack) ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n\n______________________________________\nWhat is it, then? A monstrous mouth? A fish sign, but fully annotated rather than two curved lines? A black hole?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<011D7389DB114D38A7867E0CC6C60678@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T21:09:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there's the fish's mouth subset of that. If Typhon and Severian's\ntete a tete is meant to reference the temptation of Christ, then as\nsurely the fish's mouth is meant to reference the story where Peter is\ntold by Jesus to pay his taxes with a coin he'll find in the mouth of\nthe next fish he catches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs surely?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }