{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6185", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6185, "subject": "Oannes", "messages": 112, "voices": 18, "first": "2012-03-16T22:35:01+00:00", "last": "2012-03-22T16:10:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T22:35:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mentioned a while ago the way in which, in Long Sun/Short Sun, the\nlesser gods can sometimes become manifestations of the true God,\nculminating in the Rajan's statement near the end that 'insofar as\nthey are gods at all they are him'. I've realised that there is\nsomething similar in _New Sun_, in the Oannes passage (SOTL 31), 'I\ndid not believe in Oannes or fear him. But I knew, I thought, whence\nhe came - I knew that there is an all-pervasive power in the universe\nof which every other is the shadow. I knew that my conception of that\npower was as laughable (and as serious) as Oannes.' The power is\nidentified as the Increate at the end of the chapter.\n\nLater, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that\nSeverian is a form of the Outsider?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T22:39:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good find.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Andrew Mason <\nandrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:\nI mentioned a while ago the way in which, in Long Sun/Short Sun, the\nlesser gods can sometimes become manifestations of the true God,\nculminating in the Rajan's statement near the end that 'insofar as\nthey are gods at all they are him'. I've realised that there is\nsomething similar in _New Sun_, in the Oannes passage (SOTL 31), 'I\ndid not believe in Oannes or fear him. But I knew, I thought, whence\nhe came - I knew that there is an all-pervasive power in the universe\nof which every other is the shadow. I knew that my conception of that\npower was as laughable (and as serious) as Oannes.' The power is\nidentified as the Increate at the end of the chapter.\n\nLater, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that\nSeverian is a form of the Outsider?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80AADADEE2B84944B56AF9EBC420C9D2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T23:05:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 10:35 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSubject: (urth) Oannes\nI mentioned a while ago the way in which, in Long Sun/Short Sun, the\nlesser gods can sometimes become manifestations of the true God,\nculminating in the Rajan's statement near the end that 'insofar as\nthey are gods at all they are him'. I've realised that there is\nsomething similar in _New Sun_, in the Oannes passage (SOTL 31), 'I\ndid not believe in Oannes or fear him. But I knew, I thought, whence\nhe came - I knew that there is an all-pervasive power in the universe\nof which every other is the shadow. I knew that my conception of that\npower was as laughable (and as serious) as Oannes.' The power is\nidentified as the Increate at the end of the chapter.\n\nLater, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that\nSeverian is a form of the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Works for me.\nIt is as true of Severian as it is of all gods.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F63C890.7030802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-16T23:11:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This theme came up in Latro In the Mist as well. Io compared the gods \nactors in a play she saw.\n\"The actors wore masks but the people in the play [eg the characters] \ndidn't know.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/16/2012 5:35 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI mentioned a while ago the way in which, in Long Sun/Short Sun, the\nlesser gods can sometimes become manifestations of the true God,\nculminating in the Rajan's statement near the end that 'insofar as\nthey are gods at all they are him'. I've realised that there is\nsomething similar in _New Sun_, in the Oannes passage (SOTL 31), 'I\ndid not believe in Oannes or fear him. But I knew, I thought, whence\nhe came - I knew that there is an all-pervasive power in the universe\nof which every other is the shadow. I knew that my conception of that\npower was as laughable (and as serious) as Oannes.' The power is\nidentified as the Increate at the end of the chapter.\n\nLater, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that\nSeverian is a form of the Outsider?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F63E53C.50809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-17T01:13:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And isn't Oannes the Babylonian fish god?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/16/2012 6:35 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI mentioned a while ago the way in which, in Long Sun/Short Sun, the\nlesser gods can sometimes become manifestations of the true God,\nculminating in the Rajan's statement near the end that 'insofar as\nthey are gods at all they are him'. I've realised that there is\nsomething similar in _New Sun_, in the Oannes passage (SOTL 31), 'I\ndid not believe in Oannes or fear him. But I knew, I thought, whence\nhe came - I knew that there is an all-pervasive power in the universe\nof which every other is the shadow. I knew that my conception of that\npower was as laughable (and as serious) as Oannes.' The power is\nidentified as the Increate at the end of the chapter.\n\nLater, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that\nSeverian is a form of the Outsider?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F641B3B.8020100@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-17T05:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F63E53C.50809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/16/2012 8:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd isn't Oannes the Babylonian fish god?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dagon" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6499E9.7060003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-17T14:04:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F641B3B.8020100@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/17/2012 1:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 3/16/2012 8:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And isn't Oannes the Babylonian fish god?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dagon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently only by conflation with Oannes, because Dagon was originally \na grain-god. However, Dagon is part of the chain of identifications, \nwhich includes Pan:\n\nDagon, Fish-god tradition\n\nIn the eleventh century, Jewish bible commentator Rashi writes of a \nBiblical tradition that the name D?g?n is related to Hebrew d?g/d?g \n'fish' and that Dagon was imagined in the shape of a fish: compare the \nBabylonian fish-god Oannes. In the thirteenth century David Kimhi \ninterpreted the odd sentence in 1 Samuel 5.2?7 that \"only Dagon was left \nto him\" to mean \"only the form of a fish was left\", adding: \"It is said \nthat Dagon, from his navel down, had the form of a fish (whence his \nname, Dagon), and from his navel up, the form of a man, as it is said, \nhis two hands were cut off.\" The Septuagint text of 1 Samuel 5.2?7 says \nthat both the hands and the head of the image of Dagon were broken off.[5]\n\nH. Schm?kel asserted in 1928[6] that Dagon was never originally a \nfish-god, but once he became an important god of those maritime \nCanaanites, the Phoenicians, the folk-etymological connection with d?g \nwould have ineluctably affected his iconography.[7]\n\nThe fish form may be considered as a phallic symbol as seen in the story \nof the Egyptian grain god Osiris, whose penis was eaten by (conflated \nwith) fish in the Nile after he was attacked by the Typhonic beast Set. \nLikewise, in the tale depicting the origin of the constellation \nCapricornus, the Greek god of nature Pan became a fish from the waist \ndown when he jumped into the same river after being attacked by Typhon.\n\nVarious 19th century scholars, such as Julius Wellhausen and William \nRobertson Smith, believed the tradition to have been validated from the \noccasional occurrence of a merman motif found in Assyrian and Phoenician \nart, including coins from Ashdod and Arvad.\n\nJohn Milton uses the tradition in his Paradise Lost Book 1:\n\n... Next came one\nWho mourned in earnest, when the captive ark\nMaimed his brute image, head and hands lopt off,\nIn his own temple, on the grunsel-edge,\nWhere he fell flat and shamed his worshippers:\nDagon his name, sea-monster, upward man\nAnd downward fish; yet had his temple high\nReared in Azotus, dreaded through the coast\nOf Palestine, in Gath and Ascalon,\nAnd Accaron and Gaza's frontier bounds.\n\n\nAdapa, As Oannes\n\nOannes (??????, Hovhannes [?????????] in Armenian) was the name given \nby the Babylonian writer Berossus in the 3rd century BCE to a mythical \nbeing who taught mankind wisdom. Berossus describes Oannes as having the \nbody of a fish but underneath the figure of a man. He is described as \ndwelling in the Persian Gulf, and rising out of the waters in the \ndaytime and furnishing mankind instruction in writing, the arts and the \nvarious sciences.\n\nThe name \"Oannes\" was once conjectured to be derived from that of the \nancient Babylonian god Ea,[2] but it is now known that the name is the \nGreek form of the Babylonian Uanna (or Uan) a name used for Adapa in \ntexts from the Library of Ashurbanipal.[3][4\n\nSo Dagon, Oannes, and Pan are all legitimately \"mermen.\" Dagon links to \nthe biblical tradition and Pan to the Greek." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-17T15:46:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F6499E9.7060003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait though, isn't Oannes a god OF the dogon tribe of Mali, also (of the\nSirius mystery fame)\n\nOn Mar 17, 2012 7:04 AM, \"David Stockhoff\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/17/2012 1:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn 3/16/2012 8:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently only by conflation with Oannes, because Dagon was originally a\ngrain-god. However, Dagon is part of the chain of identifications, which\nincludes Pan:\n\nDagon, Fish-god tradition\n\nIn the eleventh century, Jewish bible commentator Rashi writes of a\nBiblical tradition that the name D?g?n is related to Hebrew d?g/d?g 'fish'\nand that Dagon was imagined in the shape of a fish: compare the Babylonian\nfish-god Oannes. In the thirteenth century David Kimhi interpreted the odd\nsentence in 1 Samuel 5.2?7 that \"only Dagon was left to him\" to mean \"only\nthe form of a fish was left\", adding: \"It is said that Dagon, from his\nnavel down, had the form of a fish (whence his name, Dagon), and from his\nnavel up, the form of a man, as it is said, his two hands were cut off.\"\nThe Septuagint text of 1 Samuel 5.2?7 says that both the hands and the head\nof the image of Dagon were broken off.[5]\n\nH. Schm?kel asserted in 1928[6] that Dagon was never originally a fish-god,\nbut once he became an important god of those maritime Canaanites, the\nPhoenicians, the folk-etymological connection with d?g would have\nineluctably affected his iconography.[7]\n\nThe fish form may be considered as a phallic symbol as seen in the story of\nthe Egyptian grain god Osiris, whose penis was eaten by (conflated with)\nfish in the Nile after he was attacked by the Typhonic beast Set. Likewise,\nin the tale depicting the origin of the constellation Capricornus, the\nGreek god of nature Pan became a fish from the waist down when he jumped\ninto the same river after being attacked by Typhon.\n\nVarious 19th century scholars, such as Julius Wellhausen and William\nRobertson Smith, believed the tradition to have been validated from the\noccasional occurrence of a merman motif found in Assyrian and Phoenician\nart, including coins from Ashdod and Arvad.\n\nJohn Milton uses the tradition in his Paradise Lost Book 1:\n\n... Next came one\nWho mourned in earnest, when the captive ark\nMaimed his brute image, head and hands lopt off,\nIn his own temple, on the grunsel-edge,\nWhere he fell flat and shamed his worshippers:\nDagon his name, sea-monster, upward man\nAnd downward fish; yet had his temple high\nReared in Azotus, dreaded through the coast\nOf Palestine, in Gath and Ascalon,\nAnd Accaron and Gaza's frontier bounds.\n\n\nAdapa, As Oannes\n\nOannes (??????, Hovhannes [?????????] in Armenian) was the name given by\nthe Babylonian writer Berossus in the 3rd century BCE to a mythical being\nwho taught mankind wisdom. Berossus describes Oannes as having the body of\na fish but underneath the figure of a man. He is described as dwelling in\nthe Persian Gulf, and rising out of the waters in the daytime and\nfurnishing mankind instruction in writing, the arts and the various\nsciences.\n\nThe name \"Oannes\" was once conjectured to be derived from that of the\nancient Babylonian god Ea,[2] but it is now known that the name is the\nGreek form of the Babylonian Uanna (or Uan) a name used for Adapa in texts\nfrom the Library of Ashurbanipal.[3][4\n\nSo Dagon, Oannes, and Pan are all legitimately \"mermen.\" Dagon links to the\nbiblical tradition and Pan to the Greek." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-17T15:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, sorry. Answered own spurious claim...carry on.\n\nOn Mar 17, 2012 8:46 AM, \"Jordon Flato\" wrote:\n\nWait though, isn't Oannes a god OF the dogon tribe of Mali, also (of the\nSirius mystery fame)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2012 7:04 AM, \"David Stockhoff\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/17/2012 1:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/16/2012 8:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently only by conflation with Oannes, because Dagon was originally a\ngrain-god. However, D..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-17T23:10:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: What is it [Jurupari], then? A monstrous mouth? A fish sign.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nSorry I didn't meant to be oblique. Summing up the evidence, I think Jurupari is\n\na reference to Abaia and generally signifies (like the chicken with needles through\n\nthe eyes) an allegiance to the forces trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun.\n\n \n\nGiven the village name \"Murene\" and the lake name \"Diuturna\" I find sufficient \n\nevidence to suspect Oannes also is associated with Abaia. Yes, Abaia is supposed to\n\nbe in the ocean but, as for Tzadkiel and Greek gods, I think we are dealing with \n\nasexually reproducing, plural beings who can be in more than one place at once.\n\n \n\nAt the end of UotNS, when Severian says he has become the Oannes of these people I\n\nthink it signifies that he has (as The Sleeper) replaced Abaia to become the ruling \n\npagan god of the planet. (and if that sets up the potential for an unusual\n\nrelationship with Juturna, so much the better to match the filial confusion of pagan \n\nmythological pantheons, like, say Zeus and Dionysus or Pas and Silk)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Later, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that Severian is a form of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYep. I think so. But I think it only works if The Outsider is recognized as a paganish,\n\ngnostic sort of god. Approaching the Christian ideal of God but not quite there yet.\n\n \n\nI have suggested that the God of the OT seems to be rather pagan by our modern Christian\n\nstandards. I think the prevalence of the fish motif in the Sun Series is a recognition that\n\nthe earliest Christians (including the ones who used the fish symbol) were still pretty damn \n\ngnostic in their beliefs and actions by modern Christian standards. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332072780.63803.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-18T12:13:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my flight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby (my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a brief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job getting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The atmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, with the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that was masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to Star Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the setting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's dream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his date, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post actively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably mispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I had never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth it. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected from the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have not had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal stories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. Michael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David Hartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner table with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into the reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend who came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of the highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F65DCC0.2070102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-18T13:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/17/2012 7:10 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: What is it [Jurupari], then? A monstrous mouth? A fish sign.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry I didn't meant to be oblique. Summing up the evidence, I think Jurupari is\n\na reference to Abaia and generally signifies (like the chicken with needles through\n\nthe eyes) an allegiance to the forces trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun.\n\n\n\nGiven the village name \"Murene\" and the lake name \"Diuturna\" I find sufficient\n\nevidence to suspect Oannes also is associated with Abaia. Yes, Abaia is supposed to\n\nbe in the ocean but, as for Tzadkiel and Greek gods, I think we are dealing with\n\nasexually reproducing, plural beings who can be in more than one place at once.\n\n\n\nAt the end of UotNS, when Severian says he has become the Oannes of these people I\n\nthink it signifies that he has (as The Sleeper) replaced Abaia to become the ruling\n\npagan god of the planet. (and if that sets up the potential for an unusual\n\nrelationship with Juturna, so much the better to match the filial confusion of pagan\n\nmythological pantheons, like, say Zeus and Dionysus or Pas and Silk)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but what about the sign itself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: Later, in _Urth_, Severian says that he has become the Oannes of his\npeople. Might this be a clue to what Wolfe means by saying that Severian is a form of the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep. I think so. But I think it only works if The Outsider is recognized as a paganish,\n\ngnostic sort of god. Approaching the Christian ideal of God but not quite there yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SO the Outsider is not the Increate, but a godling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have suggested that the God of the OT seems to be rather pagan by our modern Christian\n\nstandards. I think the prevalence of the fish motif in the Sun Series is a recognition that\n\nthe earliest Christians (including the ones who used the fish symbol) were still pretty damn\n\ngnostic in their beliefs and actions by modern Christian standards. \t\t \t \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what this means. Does \"pagan\" mean one-dimensional, in the \nsense of \"representational\" art, where there is a one-to-one \ncorrespondence with the thing represented? Does it mean a god who says, \nI prefer long beards and Tuesdays and cocker spaniels and the smell of \nroast pig on Mount Tippytop, vs a god of all things and times and places?\n\nDoes \"gnostic\" mean \"fearful and suspicious of the demiurge\" and \n\"seeking union with a higher divinity\"? Because I really don't think \nearly Christian beliefs included Satan or considered God to be distant. \nAt all. He was here and now, always.\n\nIf anything, Caesar (who was after all worshiped as a god) was \nmistrusted as a local authority, but even if they organized their world \nin a superficially similar way (Caesar's things to Caesar and God's \nthings to God), Caesar was no demiurge." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332079625.85073.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-18T14:07:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<1332072780.63803.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wonderful, Marc. I'm still terribly jealous. Chasing a 3 year old around a wedding reception while my wife enjoyed her friends was poor compensation. How we suffer for those we love...\n\n\n\n \nI am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my flight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby (my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a brief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job getting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The atmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, with the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that was masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to Star Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the setting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's dream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his date, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post actively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably mispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I had never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth it. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected from the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have not had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal stories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. Michael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David Hartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner table with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into the reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend who came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of the highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3CD6654C6E17440EABC8EF0E24B1F8BC@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-18T15:05:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<1332079625.85073.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least you both probably feel better today than I do after celebrating our National Saint’s day in the traditional fashion...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:07 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) chicago event\n\nWonderful, Marc. I'm still terribly jealous. Chasing a 3 year old around a wedding reception while my wife enjoyed her friends was poor compensation. How we suffer for those we love...\n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:13 AM\nSubject: (urth) chicago event\n\n\nI am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my flight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby (my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a brief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job getting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The atmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, with the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that was masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to Star Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the setting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's dream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his date, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post actively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably mispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I had never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth it. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected from the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have not had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal stories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. Michael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David Hartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner table with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into the reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend who came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of the highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-18T23:52:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<1332072780.63803.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang. My heart just literally ached in my chest.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my flight\nback to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby (my phone is\nlow tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a brief summary of\nevents. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job getting\ntogether a very interesting and entertaining evening. The atmosphere and\nweather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, with the highlight (of\nthe facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that was masterfully played by their\norganist, from coin operated boy to Star Wars. The Toy Theater story\nadaptation was perfect for the setting, and as James Wynn commented, the\nestate was a steampunk's dream come true, probably the best way to describe\nit.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his date,\nand Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post actively,\nthey have at least frequented it). I have probably mispelled the even\nnames. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I harbored the idea that\nwe must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually a pretty sharp bunch even\nwhen it comes to appearance. I had never gone to a con or anything before,\nand this was well worth it. It was a much more handsome and dignified group\nthan I expected from the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking\nwith all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have not had\naccess to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal stories related\nby Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the guy who adapted the\nToy Theater were profound and touching. Michael Swanwick had some great\nthings to say as well, as did David Hartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife\nwere sitting at my dinner table with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into the\nreason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted bacon\nwhile he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for writing\n(easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he wanted to make\nsure to personally insult every friend who came. He is a wonderful\nspeaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him that makes the years\nfade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of the\nhighlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant man, and\nhe still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet everyone there.\n I will post more later. Some pics to come!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T03:57:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chicago event", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I was jealous also. Only a 6 hour drive too. But a family with small kids\n\ncan make such a trip difficult to arrange. If only it had been a week later...\n\nAh well. Thanks for representing us, Marc and James and Nick! \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T04:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F65DCC0.2070102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: SO the Outsider is not the Increate, but a godling?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nLike Pig? Argh, surely not so low on the totem pole. Unlike our modern\nChristian world where only God and Man exist, the Sun Series seems to \n\nhave a rather well-stocked hierarchy of beings between Man and The Increate.\nSize seems to have something to do with one's level. Exultants are taller\nthan armgers. B, F and O are taller than exultants. Tzadkiel, in full glory,\nis taller than B, F and O and is as big as an island in the largest form\nwe encounter.\n \n\nGiven that The Outsider never incarnates into a material form, I would guess\nthat he is at a higher level than Tzadkiel. But is the Outsider imbued in\nevery person and everything, everywhere across all time and all universes? \n\nI get the sense he is more limited than that (though he has potential)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: What is it [Jurupari], then? A monstrous mouth? A fish sign.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Summing up the evidence, I think Jurupari is a reference to Abaia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but what about the sign itself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNot sure what sign you mean. The sign Agia scratches? Like the chicken for the jungle\nsorcerers, I think it is a sign that she is working against the coming of the New Sun.\n \n\nDo you mean the Christian fish symbol? I think it is no shock to learn that it likely \n\nhas its roots in earlier pagan symbolism. I can imagine that simple wordplay on\n\"Christ\" might not give the symbol the potency it had at the time. An excerpt\nfrom an article on the Christian fish symbol origin:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In pagan beliefs, Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia, or Delphine. The word " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "also meant \"womb\" and \"dolphin\" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the depiction of mermaids. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe fish symbol probably also is derived from symbols for an Oannes cognate god, Dagon,\n a Philistine deity who is half-man, half-fish. Also: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fish also appears in another sacred iconograph, the Avatars of Vishnu, where the deity " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"is represented as emerging from the mouth of a fish, and being a fish himself; the legend " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "being that he was to be the Saviour of the world in a deluge which was to follow...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIn writing the Sun Series I suspect Wolfe was aware of all this. Severian replaces Abaia,\nHe is the new Oannes...etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have suggested that the God of the OT seems to be rather pagan by our modern Christian\nstandards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what this means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nI mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods, seems to have human emotions\nand faults, demands burnt offering sacrifices, toys with the idea of human sacrifice, is \n\ntolerant even approving of polygamy, engages in genocide of innocents if they are Hebrew\n\nenemies, etc. He isn't much like the God most Christians know and love today. He is more like \n\nall the other gods of His time. His main distinction (as I see it) is that He is One God \n\n(allowing him to avoid the sin of incest committed by all the other pagan pantheons)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does \"gnostic\" mean \"fearful and suspicious of the demiurge\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI've been using the word gnostic in the broader sense for a couple years here but I suppose I\nstill need to qualify it now and then. I mean it to refer to the broad swath of religious beliefs \n\nwhich came to exist in the time period between Alexander and Christ. Alexander's empire allowed \n\nthe blending and cross-polination of eastern and western religion and mythology to happen. Judaism\n may have been something of an oasis in the midst of it but, of course, it was not unaffected.\n \nThere are Wiccan and satanic cults today which practice some of such pre-christian beliefs \n\nand rituals. (remember the Wolfe quote, \"you could tell me that witches don't exist, but I could\nshow you one\"). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6725F9.2030409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T12:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 12:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: SO the Outsider is not the Increate, but a godling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like Pig? Argh, surely not so low on the totem pole. Unlike our modern\nChristian world where only God and Man exist, the Sun Series seems to\n\nhave a rather well-stocked hierarchy of beings between Man and The Increate.\nSize seems to have something to do with one's level. Exultants are taller\nthan armgers. B, F and O are taller than exultants. Tzadkiel, in full glory,\nis taller than B, F and O and is as big as an island in the largest form\nwe encounter.\n\n\nGiven that The Outsider never incarnates into a material form, I would guess\nthat he is at a higher level than Tzadkiel. But is the Outsider imbued in\nevery person and everything, everywhere across all time and all universes?\n\nI get the sense he is more limited than that (though he has potential)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. In essence, you are saying the Outsider is not God, but \nDionysius. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff: What is it [Jurupari], then? A monstrous mouth? A fish sign.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Summing up the evidence, I think Jurupari is a reference to Abaia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but what about the sign itself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure what sign you mean. The sign Agia scratches? Like the chicken for the jungle sorcerers, I think it is a sign that she is working against the coming of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I was getting at was whether you saw any parallel between ANY sign \n(Agia's in particular) and the fish sign." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean the Christian fish symbol? I think it is no shock to learn that it likely has its roots in earlier pagan symbolism. I can imagine that simple wordplay on \"Christ\" might not give the symbol the potency it had at the time. An excerpt from an article on the Christian fish symbol origin:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In pagan beliefs, Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia, or Delphine. The word also meant \"womb\" and \"dolphin\" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting---it makes sense that \"fish\" would connect with numerous \ncults, but I did not know they would be such prominent ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". . . The fish also appears in another sacred iconograph, the Avatars of Vishnu, where the deity \"is represented as emerging from the mouth of a fish, and being a fish himself; the legend being that he was to be the Saviour of the world in a deluge which was to follow...\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor this!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In writing the Sun Series I suspect Wolfe was aware of all this. Severian replaces Abaia,\nHe is the new Oannes...etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have suggested that the God of the OT seems to be rather pagan by our modern Christian\nstandards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what this means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods, seems to have human emotions and faults, demands burnt offering sacrifices, toys with the idea of human sacrifice, is tolerant even approving of polygamy, engages in genocide of innocents if they are Hebrew enemies, etc. He isn't much like the God most Christians know and love today. He is more like all the other gods of His time. His main distinction (as I see it) is that He is One God\n(allowing him to avoid the sin of incest committed by all the other pagan pantheons)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK---that is what I was suggesting. Setting aside polygamy, which \ndoesn't seem relevant, are you observing that the OT God stands apart \nfrom His local contemporaries because he lacks a sister? You may be \nright---certainly it shows he was not Egyptian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does \"gnostic\" mean \"fearful and suspicious of the demiurge\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been using the word gnostic in the broader sense for a couple years here but I suppose I still need to qualify it now and then. I mean it to refer to the broad swath of religious beliefs which came to exist in the time period between Alexander and Christ. Alexander's empire allowed\nthe blending and cross-polination of eastern and western religion and mythology to happen. Judaism may have been something of an oasis in the midst of it but, of course, it was not unaffected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's probably not a precise use of the term. I think the term you \nmay want to use is \"mystical\" or maybe \"syncretist\" or \"esoteric.\" \nGenerally that is taken to mean \"oriental\" in the older vocabulary, \nwhere it signifies anything non-Roman or Greek: Mithraism and so on. \nNote however that Egypt used to be included in that category, and thus \ntwo \"oriental\" traditions, the Persian and the Egyptian, combined with \nthe Greek cults during the Ptolemaic and Seleucid periods. As has been \ndiscussed here many times, the early Christian cult drew heavily from \nall three, but at an early point the truly gnostic contingent, with its \ngospels, went underground." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T14:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F6725F9.2030409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Yes, that's [gnostic] probably not a precise use of the term. \nI think the term you may want to use is \"mystical\" or maybe \"syncretist\" or \n\"esoteric.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I appreciate these suggestions. I'm not happy either with using the term \"gnostic\" \nbut it still seems to come closer to what I mean. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls\ngnosticism:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic \nsects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth \ncentury, and which...held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole \nuniverse a depravation of the Deity..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm okay with that definition. Moreover, I think James has lately been using the term \nin a similar fashion to mine. And I consider James' ideas to be essential to this \nconversation. What the C.E. doesn't fully recognize is the essential function of \nAlexander and his empire in drawing in and blending eastern and western (spritual and \nmaterial, maternalistic and paternalistic, etc.) religious beliefs together.\n\nAs James so astuely observed, Spring Wind is likely the younger version of Typhon in\nBotNS. And as was also discussed, combining the lives of Spring Wind and Typhon provides\na nice allegory for the life of Alexander. As Alexander's empire set the stage for \n400 years of pre-Christian \"gnosticism\" so Typhon's empire sets the stage for the \ngnostic world of Severian that we see in BotNS (and the Whorl/Blue/Green)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see. In essence, you are saying the Outsider is not God, but Dionysius. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Essentially, yes. The Dionysus who evolved beyond his incarnation as a rustic origin\ngod (Father), who evolved beyond his role as a minor part of the Greek pantheon (Son)\nand became the central deity (Spirit) of much pre-Christian worship. \n \nBoth Dionysus and The Outsider retained associations with wine and the vine and goatmen \n(Neighbors) after their ascension. The Dionysian trinity and its association with \nLong/Short Sun and the Christian trinity has previously been discussed. Whether Dionysus \nfaded away and was replaced by the Christian God or whether he evolved into Him is a topic \nof theological discussion and debate.\n \nNot a coincidence that bisexual, boyish, deified Alexander was the impetus for \ncenturies of androgynous Dionysus worship (and not a coincidence that Typhon is bisexual). \nAlexander was notable for shaving and for making his soldiers shave. Severian shaves \nhimself with his sword and I think that is a nod to the Alexanderian practice.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6762AB.7070603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T16:45:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<1332072780.63803.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. Let's see what I can add to what Marc posted:\n\nThis initial ceremonies were instituted in a house that --as Wolfe \nremarked-- appeared to be the sort of place that you have to use a \npassword just to enter. The performance hall was built around a giant \nWurlitzer that could be automatically sunk entirely into the stage \nfloor. The pipes and brass horns surrounded us on all sides. Also it was \nfilled with amazing giant mechanical player organs for the turn of the \ncentury (the last one). There was a player bango I saw there too. The \nhouse architecture was of the sort that you would expect someone from \neach event held there would disappear and forced to eternally serve as \nstaff.\n\nThis house was filled with surely every early model of gramophone and \nother recorded player ever produced prior to 1920. Also lots of art deco \nfurniture, figurines, and stained glass. Also\n\nGary K. Wolfe gave the first speech. Gene Wolfe later noted that Gary \nusually points out that he and Gene are not brothers or even related to \nwhich Gene always responds \"I'm telling Ma!\" Michael Swanwick gave a \nspeech. The Gaiman gave the award, offering a speech that drew a lot \nfrom him Guardian article from Wolfe's birthday last year.\n\nMarc's summary of Wolfe's speech is accurate but I'll give more detail \nto something he mentioned. He took questions after his speech. Someone \nshouted out (humorously) was \"Where do you get your ideas!\" This led \nWolfe to answer another common question he gets\" \"Why do you write?\" The \nanswer to this was \"So I don't have to explain why I'm not working.\" And \nthen he told a story about the sale of \"Car Sinister\" (collected in \n\"Book of Days\"/\"Castle of Days\"). He would do all his writing in the \nearly morning before the distractions of work and kids. In 1969?, they \nneeded money to buy school clothes for their four children, but they \ndidn't really have it. Then he sold the story for $80 (which went a lot \nfurther then than it does now). He cashed the check and gave Rosemary \nfour 20s explaining that it was all the money he got from the sale of \nthe story and she now had $20 for each kid. So not long afterwards he's \ndoing so manual repair work around the house and Rosemary came up to him \nand said \"Shouldn't you be writing?\"\n\nThen there was the terrific adaptation of \"A Toy Theater\" (adapted by \n/Larry Santoro/). And I think, having seen it, everyone should now agree \nwith me that not only is Stromboli a puppet, but so is the narrator and \neveryone else. Wolfe is the sole puppeteer. They worked in \"Coin \nOperated Boy\" by Amanda Palmer (Neil Gaiman's wife) of \"The Dresden \nDolls\". The actors were tremendous singers as well. The play was \naccompanied by the Wurlitzer.\n\nAfter the play, we had the Wurlitzer performance, in which he also did \nanother rendition of \"Coin Operated Boy\" which leads me to believe that \nWolfe has an especial affection for this song right now, since I know \nthat the organist had asked his family for a favorite song of Gene's \nthat he could perform. It was the only song that appeared to be not part \nof his usual repertoire.\n\nThen we proceeded to the building where we ate. This was essentially a \nbarn containing more giant music players. Also, a huge turn of the \ncentury circus carrousel. The walls were festooned with vintage movie \nposters and side show posters. In another room, they had aisle upon \naisle of early steam engines. The whole thing was a steam punk dream.\n\nI sat with Marc and Patrick O'Leary and also Jill Thompson the \nillustrator. I wish I had googled her at the table because I discovered \nafterwards that I was a huge fan of hers. I have the entire 80s \nElementals series, and the Dead Boy Detective series, and Black Orchid. \nAnd of course of have the \"Fables and Reflections\" Sandman volume (Wolfe \nwrote the introduction). Instead, of a friendly conversation with her, I \ncould have had an amazing conversation with her.\n\nPeter Sagal of NPR's \"Wait Wait Don't Tell Me\" was the master of \nceremonies. When I heard this was the case, I thought \"Eh...big name and \nlocal to Chicago but....\" However, it turns out he's a huge SF \nliterature fan. He's one of us. It was totally appropriate. He boosted \nthe \"John Carter\" movie which made Mantis quite happy because he would \nask everyone he met if they saw it and what they thought of it. Mantis \nis huge Burroughs fan and he was not looking forward to this adaption. \nHe was quite happily surprised. However, he had not noted all the \nBurroughs references in \"The Long Sun/Short Sun\" so I was glad to be the \nfirst to point them out to him.\n\nIncidentally, Mantis is about to release a Lexicon Urthus-style book on \n\"The Long Sun\" and \"The Short Sun.\"\n\nDavid Hartwell gave a speech in which he described why Wolfe is so \ndifficult to edit. He would try to do due diligence as an editor and \nwould say things like \"I don't think it's clear why such-and-such.\" To \nwhich Wolfe responds, \"Well, you must have only skimmed the book.\" So \nHartwell always reads every manuscript twice before making editing \nsuggestions.\n\nThis lead Patrick O'Leary to recount how Hartwell has once noted that \nWolfe had used the exact same word to describe the color of separate \nwomen's aureolas. Wolfe's initial response was \"But they ARE the same \ncolor.\" But he then conceded that it was a mistake. And, of course, if \nthat had got through, I WOULD be convinced that despite all reason, that \nWAS the same woman or at least the same breast.\n\nBy, the way, Hartwell's anthologies are absolutely the best IMO. Not \njust \"The Years Best\" series. I mean the ones where he gets to pick from \nall eras to compile stories based on a them. I strongly recommend the \ntwo \"Masterpieces\" books. But he has others that you can almost fill a \nshelf with and that's exactly what you should do.\n\nAfter we ate, we all had to ride the huge vintage carrousel. I was a \nlittle worried that I would get off as child or an (even) old(er) man. \nAside for horses, it also spinner seats (like the tea cups at \nDisneyland). And it also had carriages which we assumed was for \ngrandmothers to be able to ride with their kids---until the ride started \nand we discovered that the carriages teeter wildly left and right \nthrough the entire ride. It was probably the most harrowing choice of all.\n\nIt was a disappointment that Rosemary couldn't be there this time due to \nhealth reasons. I *think* this is the first event I've been to with \nWolfe in which she wasn't there. She is a really sweet person who is \nobviously crazy about Gene.\n\nIt was great to meet Marc face-to-face after all these years. And Nick \nand Jensen. It was great to see Mantis and Gene's daughter Teri again. I \nmissed all the the people who couldn't make it. By the way, Teri is now \nworking with Cheeky Frawg books (http://www.cheekyfrawg.com/about.html) \nwhich seems devoted to bringing under-recognized literature to e-book \nformat. Check it out.\n\n\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/18/2012 7:13 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my flight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby (my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a brief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job getting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The atmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, with the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that was masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to Star Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the setting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's dream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his date, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post actively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably mispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I had never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth it. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected from the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have not had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal stories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. Michael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David Hartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner table with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into the reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend who came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of the highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332175962.42456.YahooMailNeo@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T16:52:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________________________\n From: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:34 AM\nSubject: (urth) Oannes\n \n\nNot a coincidence that bisexual, boyish, deified Alexander was the impetus for \ncenturies of androgynous Dionysus worship (and not a coincidence that Typhon is bisexual). \nAlexander was notable for shaving and for making his soldiers shave. Severian shaves \nhimself with his sword and I think that is a nod to the Alexanderian practice.\n? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n_______________________________________________\n\nWhat's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual? Not that I don't think he is---note the double-penised depiction of Pas on the obscene tapestry, which seems to suggest a dual sexual nature that some perceived as his primary feature. Note also the demand for a tribute of boys and girls by the tyrant of the tale of the Student. But is that evidence or conjecture?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332176108.17066.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T16:55:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman: I have suggested that the God of the OT seems to be rather pagan by our " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "modern Christian standards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what this means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the early books, but not the later ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seems to have human emotions\nand faults, demands burnt offering sacrifices, toys with the idea of human \nsacrifice," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is tolerant even approving of polygamy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesus had nothing to say about polygamy, which seems like tolerating it. Paul said a church overseer or deacon should be \"the husband of one wife\", which still doesn't look to the naive like an outright condemnation, though apparently it's usually taken that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "engages in genocide of innocents if they are Hebrew\nenemies, etc. He isn't much like the God most Christians know and love \ntoday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One important difference is that in the Old Testament, God punishes people in life, while by New Testament times, no one could believe this any more (I assume), so in the NT, God punishes people after death. In this respect, neither seems more pagan, as the Greek gods punished people both in life and after death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is more like \nall the other gods of His time. His main distinction (as I see it) is that He is \nOne God \n(allowing him to avoid the sin of incest committed by all the other pagan \npantheons)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting point.\n\nAnother important distinction is that He is depicted as the direct source of a wide-ranging code of laws. In contrast, the oldest surviving law code is presented as the work of a king (who got his position by divine favor).\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu\n\nLikewise, as I understand it, the Greek gods punished offenses against them and a few transgressions against mortals, notably killing or having sex with one's relatives, but they didn't particularly care about murder, theft, adultery, etc.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T17:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332175962.42456.YahooMailNeo@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it might be drawn from the point where Typhon / Paiton is stroking\n(himself? itself?) after being awoken by Severian. If memory serves, it\nwas when they were overlooking the land far below the statue. I remember\nreading here on the Urth list that one theory was that Typhon was going to\nrape Severian, and that Paiton resisted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* Lee Berman \n*To:* urth at urth.net\n*Sent:* Monday, March 19, 2012 10:34 AM\n*Subject:* (urth) Oannes\n\n\nNot a coincidence that bisexual, boyish, deified Alexander was the impetus\nfor\ncenturies of androgynous Dionysus worship (and not a coincidence that\nTyphon is bisexual).\nAlexander was notable for shaving and for making his soldiers shave.\nSeverian shaves\nhimself with his sword and I think that is a nod to the Alexanderian\npractice.\n\n_______________________________________________\n\nWhat's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual? Not that I don't think he\nis---note the double-penised depiction of Pas on the obscene tapestry,\nwhich seems to suggest a dual sexual nature that some perceived as his\nprimary feature. Note also the demand for a tribute of boys and girls by\nthe tyrant of the tale of the Student. But is that evidence or conjecture?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F67779B.9020000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T18:14:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/18/2012 11:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nGiven that The Outsider never incarnates into a material form, I would guess\nthat he is at a higher level than Tzadkiel. But is the Outsider imbued in\nevery person and everything, everywhere across all time and all universes?\nI get the sense he is more limited than that (though he has potential)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, given that the Outsider asserted that all powers that pretend to \nbe gods will (in some way) tend to become Him specifically, then, yes, \nhe *does* seem to imbue all matter.\nThis is a paradox that (I think it was) CS Lewis pointed out regarding \nworldwide religions and religious sects based on the God of the Bible \n(including Islam and LDS): In other world religions God is either \nimpersonal and infinite or personal and finite. The God of the Bible, he \nsays, is both infinite and person. The Outsider-as-Increate is a very \nBible-oriented deity.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332183362.71950.YahooMailNeo@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T18:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F67779B.9020000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T19:06:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332175962.42456.YahooMailNeo@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: DAVID STOCKHOFF" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual? Not that I don't think he \nis---note\nthe double-penised depiction of Pas on the obscene tapestry, which seems \nto suggest\n a dual sexual nature that some perceived as his primary feature. Note \nalso the demand\n for a tribute of boys and girls by the tyrant of the tale of the Student. \nBut is that\n evidence or conjecture?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon says to Severian:\n?From your throne in Nessus you will send me tribute of fair women and boys, \nof the ancient devices and books, and all the good things this world of Urth \nproduces.\n\nI think it’s more of a power thing than a sex thing with Typhon, though.\n\nThe painting doesn't really mean anything - it's an obvious obscene riff on \nthe two-headed iconography of Pas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F678D1C.6030108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T19:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332183362.71950.YahooMailNeo@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 1:56 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n This is a paradox that (I think it was) CS Lewis pointed out\n regarding worldwide religions and religious sects based on the God\n of the Bible (including Islam and LDS): In other world religions\n God is either impersonal and infinite or personal and finite. The\n God of the Bible, he says, is both infinite and person. The\n Outsider-as-Increate is a very Bible-oriented deity.\n\n___________________________________\nDoes that make him a syncretistic combination of East (impersonal \ninfinite, e.g, Buddhism) and West (personal finite, e.g., Thor)? Or is \nthis equally true of the OT as it is of the NT?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. I would say it is equally true of the OT and the NT God.\nThe OT creates the Earth and the sun, moon, stars and light itself. Yet, \nhe has personal conversations with Moses and Abraham. The NT God is just \nan extrapolation of that as described in the gospel of John and Paul's \nletter to the Colossians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, are there any examples of an impersonal finite god? Or would \nthat just be a BDO?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good question. Big Dumb Object is an interesting term for it. \nAn impersonal finite god would be a god drained of everything worthy of \nworship.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T19:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F678D1C.6030108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff: What's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual?\n \nYep, you guys did a good job listing the evidence. The erection\nin Severian's presence, the tribute, the painting. Added to the\nmatings with Echidna and his relationship with Kypris, of course.\n \nI agree with Antonin that a rape might have been implied as the \nupcoming event after Severian had been fed and had sworn utter fealty \nand obedience to Typhon. Which may be part of why Severian refused to \nswear it. His torturer days might have alerted him that some men \n(like some animals) use sex as a way of affirming male-male dominance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think it’s more of a power thing than a sex thing with \nTyphon, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed, but it is still sex. The choice of \"fair women and boys\" implies \nexercising sexual power and coercion. Not the sort of tribute subjects \nyou'd pick if you planned to hold gladiator fights or build giant monuments \nto yourself. The painting does corroborate this view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The painting doesn't really mean anything" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm sure you wouldn't intend to speak for others, so perhaps that could\nbe amended to, \"The painting doesn't really mean anything to me\".\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \nBut is that evidence or conjecture?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T19:53:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F678D1C.6030108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAlso, are there any examples of an impersonal finite god? Or would that\njust be a BDO?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good question. Big Dumb Object is an interesting term for it. An\nimpersonal finite god would be a god drained of everything worthy of\nworship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that the God of Deism is pretty close to an impersonal\nfinite God." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332187052.93885.YahooMailNeo@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T19:57:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F678D1C.6030108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "<16C7F7DF2CF3403D8BAE2D8F5C6726F0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:05:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The painting does corroborate this view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The painting doesn't really mean anything" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure you wouldn't intend to speak for others, so perhaps that could\nbe amended to, \"The painting doesn't really mean anything to me\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like where you said ?To me, the painting corroborates this view. ?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \nBut is that evidence or conjecture?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:12:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<16C7F7DF2CF3403D8BAE2D8F5C6726F0@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: In the early books, but not the later ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, exactly. I am suggesting that God seems to change through the \ncourse of the Bible (OT and NT). Anthropologically I certainly \naccept that this could be the result of changes in the cultures which\nare writing about God.\n \nBut the Sun Series seems to depict gods which can be washed away or \ndivided, shuffled and redealt, like cards, into different forms. Gods\nlike The Outsider can evolve from being minor deities in a pantheon\nto The God (as was true for Dionysus)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jesus had nothing to say about polygamy, which seems like tolerating it. \nPaul said a church overseer or deacon should be \"the husband of one wife\", " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my point. Judeo-Christian religions have evolved from more pagan\nforms which condone polygamy to a modern version which does not. This does\nnot seem consistent with a God who is perfect and unchanging and cares very\nmuch about marriage. Why would polygamy be okay 5000 years ago but gradually\nbecome not okay?\n \nPerhaps Gene wolfe is not entirely satisfied with the anthropological\nexplanation. Perhaps, in noticing the evolution of ancient pagan forms\ntoward more Christian forms, even pre-Christ, he has come to the conclusion\nthat God is an evolving and adapting entity. I dunno. Doesn't matter, I guess.\nWhat matters to me is that we see divine reshuffling and evolution in the Sun\nSeries. At least I think so. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:21:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Well, given that the Outsider asserted that all powers \nthat pretend to be gods will (in some way) tend to become Him \nspecifically, then, yes, he *does* seem to imbue all matter...\n..The God of the Bible..is both infinite and person[al]. \nThe Outsider-as-Increate is a very Bible-oriented deity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. I suppose the main difference in our views is that I see\nan evolution of God from being more like a powerful person in the\nOT to being more infinite as we move to Christ and on to modern\nChristianity.\n \nIn UotNS, Tzadkiel says that The Increate is so far above him that\nhe must guess at The Increate's intentions. So even for angels, there\nis no direct communication with God.\n \nYet the Outsider does communicate directly with Silk. This is the main\nsource of my feeling that The Outsider is not The Increate.\n \nIf he is, then it seems to put Silk in a position above angels. Silk is\nthe sole conduit via which The Increate will communicate with humanity\nin the Whorl/Blue/Green system. Doesn't this make Silk the equivalent of\nJesus, if not Christ himself? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6795AA.6080600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332187052.93885.YahooMailNeo@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 2:57 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nOTOH, perhaps the Roman household gods were like that---not the family \nancestors, but the little guys you'd nod to as you stepped over the \nthreshold or stoked the fire in the hearth. Nobody expected them to \nspeak, but the domain of each was limited to a few square feet. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Dan'l Danehy-Oakes also wrote:\nIt seems to me that the God of Deism is pretty close to an impersonal\nfinite God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this is what is meant by an \"impersonal god\" when \ncomparing it with, say, Zen Buddhism.\nI think \"impersonal\" doesn't mean a Person who is uncommunicative. It \nmeans a Person who is \"not a personality\"...a person who is not \"aware\" \nat any time in any sense as we would define it.\nDeism only argues that the Creator doesn't respond to personal requests \nor is even absent. I think the hearth gods were conceived as actual \npersons even though they had no prophets.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:25:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nIn UotNS, Tzadkiel says that The Increate is so far above him that\nhe must guess at The Increate's intentions. So even for angels, there\nis no direct communication with God.\n\nYet the Outsider does communicate directly with Silk. This is the main\nsource of my feeling that The Outsider is not The Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The God of the OT does communicate directly with humans: Moses,\nAbraham, and divers prophets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he is, then it seems to put Silk in a position above angels. Silk is\nthe sole conduit via which The Increate will communicate with humanity\nin the Whorl/Blue/Green system. Doesn't this make Silk the equivalent of\nJesus, if not Christ himself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly, in Christianity humanity *is* in some sense above\nangels -- Paul says in one of the letters that we are to \"judge\"\nangels (\"judge,\" I presume, being taken in the Hebrew sense of\ngoverning and leading into warfare)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332189919.42764.YahooMailNeo@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________________________\n From: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:50 PM\nSubject: (urth) Oannes\n \n\n\nDavid Stockhoff: What's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual?\n\nYep, you guys did a good job listing the evidence. The erection\nin Severian's presence, the tribute, the painting. Added to the\nmatings with Echidna and his relationship with Kypris, of course.\n\nI agree with Antonin that a rape might have been implied as the \nupcoming event after Severian had been fed and had sworn utter fealty \nand obedience to Typhon. Which may be part of why Severian refused to \nswear it. His torturer days might have alerted him that some men \n(like some animals) use sex as a way of affirming male-male dominance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think it’s more of a power thing than a sex thing with \nTyphon, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, but it is still sex. The choice of \"fair women and boys\" implies \nexercising sexual power and coercion. Not the sort of tribute subjects \nyou'd pick if you planned to hold gladiator fights or build giant monuments \nto yourself. The painting does corroborate this view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The painting doesn't really mean anything" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure you wouldn't intend to speak for others, so perhaps that could\nbe amended to, \"The painting doesn't really mean anything to me\".\n__________________________________________________________\n\nCircumstantial, but likely enough. \n\nGerry is right that whoever painted that painting may have had his own motives that have nothing to do with any basis in fact. But even if Pas/Typhon was only rumored to be bisexual, that at least suggests that someone thought he was, and so he might have been." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332190007.47312.YahooMailNeo@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:50:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332189919.42764.YahooMailNeo@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to remind y'all of the Watchmen Principle:\n\nEverything in a Wolfe story means something.\n\nBut not everything in a Wolfe story means much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:45 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net\nSent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:50 PM\nSubject: (urth) Oannes\n\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff: What's the evidence that Typhon is bisexual?\n\nYep, you guys did a good job listing the evidence. The erection\nin Severian's presence, the tribute, the painting. Added to the\nmatings with Echidna and his relationship with Kypris, of course.\n\nI agree with Antonin that a rape might have been implied as the\nupcoming event after Severian had been fed and had sworn utter fealty\nand obedience to Typhon. Which may be part of why Severian refused to\nswear it. His torturer days might have alerted him that some men\n(like some animals) use sex as a way of affirming male-male dominance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think it’s more of a power thing than a sex thing with\nTyphon, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed, but it is still sex. The choice of \"fair women and boys\" implies\nexercising sexual power and coercion. Not the sort of tribute subjects\nyou'd pick if you planned to hold gladiator fights or build giant monuments\nto yourself. The painting does corroborate this view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The painting doesn't really mean anything" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure you wouldn't intend to speak for others, so perhaps that could\nbe amended to, \"The painting doesn't really mean anything to me\".\n__________________________________________________________\n\nCircumstantial, but likely enough.\n\nGerry is right that whoever painted that painting may have had his own\nmotives that have nothing to do with any basis in fact. But even if\nPas/Typhon was only rumored to be bisexual, that at least suggests that\nsomeone thought he was, and so he might have been.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:50:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332190007.47312.YahooMailNeo@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, like that......." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n________________________________\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Oannes\n\nJames Wynn wrote:\nDAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, are there any examples of an impersonal finite god? Or would that\njust be a BDO?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a good question. Big Dumb Object is an interesting term for it. An\nimpersonal finite god would be a god drained of everything worthy of\nworship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that the God of Deism is pretty close to an impersonal\nfinite God.\n_______________________________________________\n\nFinite---although very, very big?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332190613.60266.YahooMailNeo@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T20:56:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F6795AA.6080600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T21:01:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332190613.60266.YahooMailNeo@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\npets are just such beings, granted\npersonality only by their owners' powers of projection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously you are not a pet person. They have personality; one cat or\ndog is _quite_ different from another. (Hamsters, not so much...) What\nthey may lack is person_hood_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At any rate, if one were to worship one's cat, it would probably be a lot\nlike worshiping an impersonal, finite god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ask an ancient Egyptian ;)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F679FB1.9090809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T21:05:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332176108.17066.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee:\nI mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods,\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the early books, but not the later ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It never occurred to me that in the early books of Bible God is ever \ndepicted as actually feeling to be in competition with actual rivals (as \nopposed to /effective/ competition for the affections of his \nworshipers). While the early books seem to assume that His worshipers DO \nbelieve in rival gods, the upshot of the storytelling seems to imply \nthat the true circumstances are otherwise.\n\nIn Genesis, he condemns Sodom and Gomorrah even though they do not \nappear to be his worshipers. In Genesis one never seems to encounter a \ngod he must compete with or overcome. In Exodus, God plagues the \nEgyptians and their gods are not even addressed. In Numbers, Balaam's \nprophecy seems to assume one God who blesses and condemns. Also, in 1 \nSamuel, when the Philistines capture the Ark of the Covenant, they offer \nit before Dagan. Then the next morning the find the idol fallen forward \non its face in front of the Ark.\nAlso in 1 Kings when the Aramites decide that the gods of the Israelites \nare gods of the hills. So they decide to fight them in the plains where \nthey can be easily defeated. So God thrashes them extra hard to make a \npoint.\nAnd in Job, argued to be the earliest book written, there is really no \ncredible alternative to God offered even though Job's worship of God \ndoes not protect him from harm.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T21:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F679FB1.9090809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nIn Exodus, God plagues the Egyptians and their\ngods are not even addressed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, they are, in that Pharaoh's \"magicians\" (which is to say\npriests of Thoth) are able to duplicate a few of Moses' miracles but\nnot the bigger ones.\n\nWhich doesn't really take away from your main point, I'm just a\nfloccinaucinhilipilificator..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F67A746.8040201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T21:38:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 4:13 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich doesn't really take away from your main point, I'm just a \nfloccinaucinhilipilificator... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I got one of those when I drank from a stream on a camping trip." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F67ADAB.1000307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-19T22:05:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F679FB1.9090809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 5:05 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee:\nI mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods,\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the early books, but not the later ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It never occurred to me that in the early books of Bible God is ever \ndepicted as actually feeling to be in competition with actual rivals \n(as opposed to /effective/ competition for the affections of his \nworshipers). While the early books seem to assume that His worshipers \nDO believe in rival gods, the upshot of the storytelling seems to \nimply that the true circumstances are otherwise.\n\nIn Genesis, he condemns Sodom and Gomorrah even though they do not \nappear to be his worshipers. In Genesis one never seems to encounter a \ngod he must compete with or overcome. In Exodus, God plagues the \nEgyptians and their gods are not even addressed. In Numbers, Balaam's \nprophecy seems to assume one God who blesses and condemns. Also, in 1 \nSamuel, when the Philistines capture the Ark of the Covenant, they \noffer it before Dagan. Then the next morning the find the idol fallen \nforward on its face in front of the Ark.\nAlso in 1 Kings when the Aramites decide that the gods of the \nIsraelites are gods of the hills. So they decide to fight them in the \nplains where they can be easily defeated. So God thrashes them extra \nhard to make a point.\nAnd in Job, argued to be the earliest book written, there is really no \ncredible alternative to God offered even though Job's worship of God \ndoes not protect him from harm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bang!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332195803.1084.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T22:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<4F67779B.9020000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was talking to some list members this weekend, and a very common repetitive theme was that Wolfe's short fiction has recieved short shrift on the list. SO ... since I will have four weeks in May with very little to do except read or play video games or work out, I have come up with a project for myself from which I thought we could all benefit. \n\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed with the most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think are worthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found confusing or would like to re-examine after I have read through the story twice with notes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of occurence or words that are used with mysterious misplaced connotation. this would be for the short stories.\n\nObviously I don't think I will have insight into every story, but perhaps my confusion could drudge up some more relevant commentary or other questions. The problem is ... stuff like the Dickens archipelago story might be beyond my allusive skill, because while I do think I can see patterns, I am actually not the most classically rigorous amongst us - thank a biochemistry degree and a love of numbers. I might skip entirely oft discussed ones like Seven American Nights and Suzanne Delage in favor of more obscure ones. As of right now I believe I have every story, collected and uncollected, even the drabble project 100 word one, so if anybody has any suggestions as to something they would like in the format of my initial posts I would be amenable to incorporating it so that we could easily spring into a general discussion." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-19T23:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332195803.1084.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of\nCerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a\none unified piece? Just curious...\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI was talking to some list members this weekend, and a very common\nrepetitive theme was that Wolfe's short fiction has recieved short shrift\non the list. SO ... since I will have four weeks in May with very little\nto do except read or play video games or work out, I have come up with a\nproject for myself from which I thought we could all benefit.\n\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed\nwith the most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think\nare worthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found\nconfusing or would like to re-examine after I have read through the story\ntwice with notes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of\noccurence or words that are used with mysterious misplaced connotation.\nthis would be for the short stories.\n\nObviously I don't think I will have insight into every story, but perhaps\nmy confusion could drudge up some more relevant commentary or other\nquestions. The problem is ... stuff like the Dickens archipelago story\nmight be beyond my allusive skill, because while I do think I can see\npatterns, I am actually not the most classically rigorous amongst us -\nthank a biochemistry degree and a love of numbers. I might skip entirely\noft discussed ones like Seven American Nights and Suzanne Delage in favor\nof more obscure ones. As of right now I believe I have every story,\ncollected and uncollected, even the drabble project 100 word one, so if\nanybody has any suggestions as to something they would like in the format\nof my initial posts I would be amenable to incorporating it so that we\ncould easily spring into a general discussion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T00:20:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you already have a list (is the Internet Spec Data Base accurate--I\nwasn't sure if you'd call, for example, the chapbooks \"short\nstories\"--drawing a line with the novelettes/novellas or ???)?\n\nI don't think I have a great set of the short works, but maybe I'll\nparticipate as I can. (I started the year reading the four or so NESFA\nZelazny collections but got sidetracked, as usual.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nAre you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of\nCerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a\none unified piece? Just curious...\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was talking to some list members this weekend, and a very common\nrepetitive theme was that Wolfe's short fiction has recieved short shrift\non the list. SO ... since I will have four weeks in May with very little\nto do except read or play video games or work out, I have come up with a\nproject for myself from which I thought we could all benefit.\n\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed\nwith the most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think\nare worthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found\nconfusing or would like to re-examine after I have read through the story\ntwice with notes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of\noccurence or words that are used with mysterious misplaced connotation.\nthis would be for the short stories.\n\nObviously I don't think I will have insight into every story, but perhaps\nmy confusion could drudge up some more relevant commentary or other\nquestions. The problem is ... stuff like the Dickens archipelago story\nmight be beyond my allusive skill, because while I do think I can see\npatterns, I am actually not the most classically rigorous amongst us -\nthank a biochemistry degree and a love of numbers. I might skip entirely\noft discussed ones like Seven American Nights and Suzanne Delage in favor\nof more obscure ones. As of right now I believe I have every story,\ncollected and uncollected, even the drabble project 100 word one, so if\nanybody has any suggestions as to something they would like in the format\nof my initial posts I would be amenable to incorporating it so that we\ncould easily spring into a general discussion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F67D7A1.5060003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T01:04:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332195803.1084.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why yes, guvnah. Me and th' boys, we'll be happy ta ... discuss \"short \nstories\" with ya. Long as you're payin, that is. Right, Sally?\n\n(laughs nastily, takes out greasy blade and begins to sharpen it, crooning)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 6:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI was talking to some list members this weekend, and a very common repetitive theme was that Wolfe's short fiction has recieved short shrift on the list. SO ... since I will have four weeks in May with very little to do except read or play video games or work out, I have come up with a project for myself from which I thought we could all benefit.\n\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed with the most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think are worthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found confusing or would like to re-examine after I have read through the story twice with notes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of occurence or words that are used with mysterious misplaced connotation. this would be for the short stories.\n\nObviously I don't think I will have insight into every story, but perhaps my confusion could drudge up some more relevant commentary or other questions. The problem is ... stuff like the Dickens archipelago story might be beyond my allusive skill, because while I do think I can see patterns, I am actually not the most classically rigorous amongst us - thank a biochemistry degree and a love of numbers. I might skip entirely oft discussed ones like Seven American Nights and Suzanne Delage in favor of more obscure ones. As of right now I believe I have every story, collected and uncollected, even the drabble project 100 word one, so if anybody has any suggestions as to something they would like in the format of my initial posts I would be amenable to incorporating it so that we could easily spring into a general discussion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "gregory.a.bates at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T01:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RE: Novellas and TFHoC; i've got to imagine that part of the point behind\nthis project is to discuss and shed light on the less-tread portion of\nWolfe's bibliography. Cerberus has been pretty heavily discussed on here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nDo you already have a list (is the Internet Spec Data Base accurate--I\nwasn't sure if you'd call, for example, the chapbooks \"short\nstories\"--drawing a line with the novelettes/novellas or ???)?\n\nI don't think I have a great set of the short works, but maybe I'll\nparticipate as I can. (I started the year reading the four or so NESFA\nZelazny collections but got sidetracked, as usual.)\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail. com >wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of\nCerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a\none unified piece? Just curious...\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was talking to some list members this weekend, and a very common\nrepetitive theme was that Wolfe's short fiction has recieved short shrift\non the list. SO ... since I will have four weeks in May with very little\nto do except read or play video games or work out, I have come up with a\nproject for myself from which I thought we could all benefit.\n\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed\nwith the most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think\nare worthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found\nconfusing or would like to re-examine after I have read through the story\ntwice with notes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of\noccurence or words that are used with mysterious misplaced connotation.\nthis would be for the short stories.\n\nObviously I don't think I will have insight into every story, but\nperhaps my confusion could drudge up some more relevant commentary or other\nquestions. The problem is ... stuff like the Dickens archipelago story\nmight be beyond my allusive skill, because while I do think I can see\npatterns, I am actually not the most classically rigorous amongst us -\nthank a biochemistry degree and a love of numbers. I might skip entirely\noft discussed ones like Seven American Nights and Suzanne Delage in favor\nof more obscure ones. As of right now I believe I have every story,\ncollected and uncollected, even the drabble project 100 word one, so if\nanybody has any suggestions as to something they would like in the format\nof my initial posts I would be amenable to incorporating it so that we\ncould easily spring into a general discussion.\n______________________________?_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T02:04:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F67ADAB.1000307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: It never occurred to me that in the early books of Bible God is ever \ndepicted as actually feeling to be in competition with actual rivals (as \nopposed to /effective/ competition for the affections of his worshipers)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI had the impression but in a quick search I didn't find any of the passages I\n\nthought I'd find. Fair enough. But God is jealous of idols his followers might\n\nworship and He is even a bit fearful of humanity gaining too much godly power,\n\n(e.g. the Tree Of Life and the Tower of Babel stories). He shows anger and\n\nvengeance and remorse, etc. Does God still have all those feelings today?\n\n \n\nMy broader point is observing that the Judeo-Christian God seems to me to evolve and\n\nmature as the 5000 year history of Judeo-Christianity passes (and I respect the \n\nopinion of those who disagree and I'm not interested in debate or changing minds).\n\n \n\nGiven my observation, I am suggesting that Wolfe also sees an evolution in the Judeo-\n\nChristian deity and uses the Sun Series as a fictional way of illustrating how it\n\nmight work. I really could be wrong on that, I know. But I think it is possible.\n\n \n\nBotNS mentions the Theanthropos, the Demiurge, the Pancreator and the Increate. Are\n\nthese all names for different entities? Stages or aspects of one entity? What is\n\nWolfe trying to say with this and how does it relate to The Outsider? I am interested\n\nin the views of others on this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<17148C12-C9C0-4425-BDDA-22559385871A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T03:00:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah Marc, post a list! At least a first 25. If we're going, to start with the \"Young Wolfe\" stories I'll have to track down that volume.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nDo you already have a list (is the Internet Spec Data Base accurate--I wasn't sure if you'd call, for example, the chapbooks \"short stories" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6800B0.2020506@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T03:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F6762AB.7070603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 11:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAfter the play, we had the Wurlitzer performance, in which he also did\nanother rendition of \"Coin Operated Boy\" which leads me to believe that\nWolfe has an especial affection for this song right now, since I know\nthat the organist had asked his family for a favorite song of Gene's\nthat he could perform. It was the only song that appeared to be not part\nof his usual repertoire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The video of this song:\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4gPZPKJc0s\n\nFor those who don't follow Amanda Palmer, the white face and bowler hat \nis part of her former group, the Dresden Dolls', \"dark cabaret\" look \nrather than something particular to this video. Some of her work is \npretty upbeat but the emo stuff is really emo, as in you might want to \nread some Poe to help lighten your mood afterward." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F687349.2080607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T12:08:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Resending to the list ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 5:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAt any rate, if one were to worship one's cat, it would probably be a lot\nlike worshiping an impersonal, finite god.\nAsk an ancient Egyptian ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what I was thinking of." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0694E9B5384F417088EACB02C430CFF5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T13:03:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332195803.1084.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and proceed with \nthe most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think are \nworthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found confusing \nor would like to re-examine after I have read through the story twice with \nnotes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of occurence or words \nthat are used with mysterious misplaced connotation. this would be for the \nshort stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. the WolfeWiki seems to attempt something like this, but the notes and questions are rather sparse for a lot of stories.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<059FF70F18384920A5E7238C84B5ED18@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T13:36:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given my observation, I am suggesting that Wolfe also sees an evolution in the Judeo-\nChristian deity and uses the Sun Series as a fictional way of illustrating how it\nmight work. I really could be wrong on that, I know. But I think it is possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say, rather, that Wolfe takes for granted that our views of the Divine evolve, and it is part of the backdrop of the entire series.\nJust as the oldest stories of our ancestors can be told as well against a hi-tech background (Wolfe goes out of his way to demonstrate this) so the various conceptions [I am using the “mental conception” sense] of God find echoes throughout the future. (Wolfe goes out of his way to demonstrate this also, and of course the events themselves of New Sun and to some degree Long Sun reflect certain Judeo-Christian stories.) \nI don’t think he has any particular hang-ups about whether Christianity survives in its current form, or any theological issues regarding the flooding of Urth. Those aren’t what the books are about. Certainly in the places and times we visit there is no indication that Christianity in its current form is practiced. \nInsofar as the actual storyline of New Sun strongly reflects traditions associated with Christianity, it would actually have been extremely difficult to write New Sun and have Christianity in any way prominent, even if Wolfe wanted to do that. As I noted before, it would be like having Jesus running around in Narnia — it would make the tale quite impossible to tell. In Long Sun and Short Sun, he is a little freer to insert Christian symbology, and he doesn’t hesitate to do so, with several rather direct references identifying the Outsider with the God of Christianity. \nWhich is not to say that all dogmas associated with the Outsider, if indeed there are such dogmas, would necessarily be agreeable to the Vatican of the Dawn Men. Our views of the Divine will continue to evolve, just as (in much of the world anyway) they evolved from pagan conceptions to Christianity.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T13:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F687349.2080607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 5:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAt any rate, if one were to worship one's cat, it would probably be a lot\nlike worshiping an impersonal, finite god.\nAsk an ancient Egyptian ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's exactly what I was thinking of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cats don’t require worship — just obedience.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F688AC4.7090401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T13:48:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<059FF70F18384920A5E7238C84B5ED18@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 9:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman \nGiven my observation, I am suggesting that Wolfe also sees an \nevolution in the Judeo-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christian deity and uses the Sun Series as a fictional way of \nillustrating how it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "might work. I really could be wrong on that, I know. But I think it is \npossible.\nI would say, rather, that Wolfe takes for granted that our views of \nthe Divine evolve, and it is part of the backdrop of the entire series.\nJust as the oldest stories of our ancestors can be told as well \nagainst a hi-tech background (Wolfe goes out of his way to demonstrate \nthis) so the various conceptions [I am using the “mental conception” \nsense] of God find echoes throughout the future. (Wolfe goes out of \nhis way to demonstrate this also, and of course the events themselves \nof New Sun and to some degree Long Sun reflect certain Judeo-Christian \nstories.)\nI don’t think he has any particular hang-ups about whether \nChristianity survives in its current form, or any theological issues \nregarding the flooding of Urth. Those aren’t what the books are about. \nCertainly in the places and times we visit there is no indication that \nChristianity in its current form is practiced.\nInsofar as the actual storyline of New Sun strongly reflects \ntraditions associated with Christianity, it would actually have been \nextremely difficult to write New Sun and have Christianity in any way \nprominent, even if Wolfe wanted to do that. As I noted before, it \nwould be like having Jesus running around in Narnia — it would make \nthe tale quite impossible to tell. In Long Sun and Short Sun, he is a \nlittle freer to insert Christian symbology, and he doesn’t hesitate to \ndo so, with several rather direct references identifying the Outsider \nwith the God of Christianity.\nWhich is not to say that all dogmas associated with the Outsider, if \nindeed there are such dogmas, would necessarily be agreeable to the \nVatican of the Dawn Men. Our views of the Divine will continue to \nevolve, just as (in much of the world anyway) they evolved from pagan \nconceptions to Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I don't see how an evolving deity could be anything but an \nevolving perception of that deity. Plainly, that has always fascinated \nWolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<770512.5631.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2012-03-20T14:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<0694E9B5384F417088EACB02C430CFF5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 13:03 20/03/2012, Gerry wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini\nI will start with the earliest chronological stories of Gene and \nproceed with\nthe most basic of summaries, my impressions if I have any that I think are\nworthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements that I found confusing\nor would like to re-examine after I have read through the story twice with\nnotes. I will be on the look out for repetitive patterns of \noccurence or words\nthat are used with mysterious misplaced connotation. this would be for the\nshort stories.\n\nInteresting. the WolfeWiki seems to attempt something like this, \nbut the notes and questions are rather sparse for a lot of stories.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, WolfeWiki contributors have worked enthusiastically over a \nselection of stories, but it's very patchy. I'm hoping that Marc and \nthose who discuss indivdual stories with him on here will be kind \nenough to let some of their forthcoming thoughts be reflected on the \nwiki (with appropriate credit of course).\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T16:45:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F688AC4.7090401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I agree. I don't see how an evolving deity could be \nanything but an evolving perception of that deity. Plainly, that has \nalways fascinated Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree about the fascination. And Wolfe's use of a first person narrator \nthroughout the Sun Series ensures we understand that all we are hearing is \nfiltered through human perception and writing.\n \nSuch a premise is based on an assumption. One assumption is atheistic:\nthat there is no real God. God consists only of what human minds think \nabout him. Before the first humans there was no God and he will disappear\nwhen there are no longer any humans around to think about him. Is Wolfe\nsuggesting this scenario?\n \nAnother assumption is that there is a one true God who is perfect and \nchoiceless and unchanging. As you suggest, any perceived changes or\npersonification of such a God (including calling it \"He\") are false. They\nare simply projections of human imperfection on a perfect God. But this \nmeans all religions are equally valid and/or equally false. Hindus, Christians \nand animists are all equally human and thus equally right and wrong about the \nunknowable perfection of the \"real\" God. How could one group of humans have\na better grasp of the infinite than another?\n \nWell, I'm frustrated at the digression. What I'm saying is this: In Long/Short\nSun we have a pantheon of false electronic gods who are shuffled like cards and\nreplaced in new forms, becoming closer and perhaps a part of The Outsider in the \nprocess. In BotNS we have a pantheon of sea (and earth) gods who are similarly\nreplaced. Was this shuffling important to The Increate/Outsider? Did it have an \nimpact on Him? If not, why even tell the stories? (my impression of The Increate\nfrom BotNS is that he might best be described AS a universal story, which is being \nplayed out). Ah never mind. I don't know what I'm saying. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68B564.7080303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T16:50:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F6762AB.7070603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some pictures from the event:\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3588087063033.2169083.1299000908&type=3 \n\n\nhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/shunn/with/6847530346/\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/terramysterium\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.292505460818737.67044.123502224385729&type=1 \n\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/lawrence.santoro\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2k_6zclwTs&feature=share \n\n\n\nSome things I forgot to mention:\n\n* Neil Gaiman's speech included a full reading of \"A Solar Labyrinth\".\n\n* During Gene's speech he made a point of calling out a few specific \npeople who had come to the event. One of those was Marc Aramini. \"Where \nis Marc? Where is he sitting?\" We were all in the balcony and Mantis and \nI were waving our hands like maniacs to attract his attention to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 11:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOkay. Let's see what I can add to what Marc posted:\n\nThis initial ceremonies were instituted in a house that --as Wolfe \nremarked-- appeared to be the sort of place that you have to use a \npassword just to enter. The performance hall was built around a giant \nWurlitzer that could be automatically sunk entirely into the stage \nfloor. The pipes and brass horns surrounded us on all sides. Also it \nwas filled with amazing giant mechanical player organs for the turn of \nthe century (the last one). There was a player bango I saw there too. \nThe house architecture was of the sort that you would expect someone \nfrom each event held there would disappear and forced to eternally \nserve as staff.\n\nThis house was filled with surely every early model of gramophone and \nother recorded player ever produced prior to 1920. Also lots of art \ndeco furniture, figurines, and stained glass. Also\n\nGary K. Wolfe gave the first speech. Gene Wolfe later noted that Gary \nusually points out that he and Gene are not brothers or even related \nto which Gene always responds \"I'm telling Ma!\" Michael Swanwick gave \na speech. The Gaiman gave the award, offering a speech that drew a lot \nfrom him Guardian article from Wolfe's birthday last year.\n\nMarc's summary of Wolfe's speech is accurate but I'll give more detail \nto something he mentioned. He took questions after his speech. Someone \nshouted out (humorously) was \"Where do you get your ideas!\" This led \nWolfe to answer another common question he gets\" \"Why do you write?\" \nThe answer to this was \"So I don't have to explain why I'm not \nworking.\" And then he told a story about the sale of \"Car Sinister\" \n(collected in \"Book of Days\"/\"Castle of Days\"). He would do all his \nwriting in the early morning before the distractions of work and kids. \nIn 1969?, they needed money to buy school clothes for their four \nchildren, but they didn't really have it. Then he sold the story for \n$80 (which went a lot further then than it does now). He cashed the \ncheck and gave Rosemary four 20s explaining that it was all the money \nhe got from the sale of the story and she now had $20 for each kid. So \nnot long afterwards he's doing so manual repair work around the house \nand Rosemary came up to him and said \"Shouldn't you be writing?\"\n\nThen there was the terrific adaptation of \"A Toy Theater\" (adapted by \n/Larry Santoro/). And I think, having seen it, everyone should now \nagree with me that not only is Stromboli a puppet, but so is the \nnarrator and everyone else. Wolfe is the sole puppeteer. They worked \nin \"Coin Operated Boy\" by Amanda Palmer (Neil Gaiman's wife) of \"The \nDresden Dolls\". The actors were tremendous singers as well. The play \nwas accompanied by the Wurlitzer.\n\nAfter the play, we had the Wurlitzer performance, in which he also did \nanother rendition of \"Coin Operated Boy\" which leads me to believe \nthat Wolfe has an especial affection for this song right now, since I \nknow that the organist had asked his family for a favorite song of \nGene's that he could perform. It was the only song that appeared to be \nnot part of his usual repertoire.\n\nThen we proceeded to the building where we ate. This was essentially a \nbarn containing more giant music players. Also, a huge turn of the \ncentury circus carrousel. The walls were festooned with vintage movie \nposters and side show posters. In another room, they had aisle upon \naisle of early steam engines. The whole thing was a steam punk dream.\n\nI sat with Marc and Patrick O'Leary and also Jill Thompson the \nillustrator. I wish I had googled her at the table because I \ndiscovered afterwards that I was a huge fan of hers. I have the entire \n80s Elementals series, and the Dead Boy Detective series, and Black \nOrchid. And of course of have the \"Fables and Reflections\" Sandman \nvolume (Wolfe wrote the introduction). Instead, of a friendly \nconversation with her, I could have had an amazing conversation with her.\n\nPeter Sagal of NPR's \"Wait Wait Don't Tell Me\" was the master of \nceremonies. When I heard this was the case, I thought \"Eh...big name \nand local to Chicago but....\" However, it turns out he's a huge SF \nliterature fan. He's one of us. It was totally appropriate. He boosted \nthe \"John Carter\" movie which made Mantis quite happy because he would \nask everyone he met if they saw it and what they thought of it. Mantis \nis huge Burroughs fan and he was not looking forward to this adaption. \nHe was quite happily surprised. However, he had not noted all the \nBurroughs references in \"The Long Sun/Short Sun\" so I was glad to be \nthe first to point them out to him.\n\nIncidentally, Mantis is about to release a Lexicon Urthus-style book \non \"The Long Sun\" and \"The Short Sun.\"\n\nDavid Hartwell gave a speech in which he described why Wolfe is so \ndifficult to edit. He would try to do due diligence as an editor and \nwould say things like \"I don't think it's clear why such-and-such.\" To \nwhich Wolfe responds, \"Well, you must have only skimmed the book.\" So \nHartwell always reads every manuscript twice before making editing \nsuggestions.\n\nThis lead Patrick O'Leary to recount how Hartwell has once noted that \nWolfe had used the exact same word to describe the color of separate \nwomen's aureolas. Wolfe's initial response was \"But they ARE the same \ncolor.\" But he then conceded that it was a mistake. And, of course, if \nthat had got through, I WOULD be convinced that despite all reason, \nthat WAS the same woman or at least the same breast.\n\nBy, the way, Hartwell's anthologies are absolutely the best IMO. Not \njust \"The Years Best\" series. I mean the ones where he gets to pick \nfrom all eras to compile stories based on a them. I strongly recommend \nthe two \"Masterpieces\" books. But he has others that you can almost \nfill a shelf with and that's exactly what you should do.\n\nAfter we ate, we all had to ride the huge vintage carrousel. I was a \nlittle worried that I would get off as child or an (even) old(er) man. \nAside for horses, it also spinner seats (like the tea cups at \nDisneyland). And it also had carriages which we assumed was for \ngrandmothers to be able to ride with their kids---until the ride \nstarted and we discovered that the carriages teeter wildly left and \nright through the entire ride. It was probably the most harrowing \nchoice of all.\n\nIt was a disappointment that Rosemary couldn't be there this time due \nto health reasons. I *think* this is the first event I've been to with \nWolfe in which she wasn't there. She is a really sweet person who is \nobviously crazy about Gene.\n\nIt was great to meet Marc face-to-face after all these years. And Nick \nand Jensen. It was great to see Mantis and Gene's daughter Teri again. \nI missed all the the people who couldn't make it. By the way, Teri is \nnow working with Cheeky Frawg books \n(http://www.cheekyfrawg.com/about.html) which seems devoted to \nbringing under-recognized literature to e-book format. Check it out.\n\n\n\nJ.\n\nOn 3/18/2012 7:13 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my \nflight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby \n(my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a \nbrief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job \ngetting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The \natmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, \nwith the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that \nwas masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to \nStar Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the \nsetting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's \ndream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his \ndate, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post \nactively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably \nmispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind I \nharbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are actually \na pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I had never \ngone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth it. It was \na much more handsome and dignified group than I expected from the \nUrth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have \nnot had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal \nstories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) the \nguy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. Michael \nSwanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David \nHartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner \ntable with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into \nthe reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he wanted \nbacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his reasons for \nwriting (easier than repairing stuff around the house), and said he \nwanted to make sure to personally insult every friend who came. He \nis a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and energy to him \nthat makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of \nthe highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and brilliant \nman, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance to meet \neveryone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<553CBB46F53E4B35B509D5D607D1F61C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T17:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another assumption is that there is a one true God who is perfect and \nchoiceless and unchanging. As you suggest, any perceived changes or\npersonification of such a God (including calling it \"He\") are false. They\nare simply projections of human imperfection on a perfect God. But this \nmeans all religions are equally valid and/or equally false. Hindus, Christians \nand animists are all equally human and thus equally right and wrong about the \nunknowable perfection of the \"real\" God. How could one group of humans have\na better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of science, or economics, or poker, or any other unsolved matter. To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally valid is the silly end of relativism.\n \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68B851.7000003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T17:03:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 12:45 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I agree. I don't see how an evolving deity could be\nanything but an evolving perception of that deity. Plainly, that has\nalways fascinated Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree about the fascination. And Wolfe's use of a first person narrator\nthroughout the Sun Series ensures we understand that all we are hearing is\nfiltered through human perception and writing.\n\nSuch a premise is based on an assumption. One assumption is atheistic:\nthat there is no real God. God consists only of what human minds think\nabout him. Before the first humans there was no God and he will disappear\nwhen there are no longer any humans around to think about him. Is Wolfe\nsuggesting this scenario?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another assumption is that there is a one true God who is perfect and\nchoiceless and unchanging. As you suggest, any perceived changes or\npersonification of such a God (including calling it \"He\") are false. They\nare simply projections of human imperfection on a perfect God. But this\nmeans all religions are equally valid and/or equally false. Hindus, Christians\nand animists are all equally human and thus equally right and wrong about the\nunknowable perfection of the \"real\" God. How could one group of humans have\na better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm frustrated at the digression. What I'm saying is this: In Long/Short Sun we have a pantheon of false electronic gods who are shuffled like cards and replaced in new forms, becoming closer and perhaps a part of The Outsider in the process. In BotNS we have a pantheon of sea (and earth) gods who are similarly replaced. Was this shuffling important to The Increate/Outsider? Did it have an impact on Him? If not, why even tell the stories?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they have an impact on the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(my impression of The Increate from BotNS is that he might best be described AS a universal story, which is being played out). Ah never mind. I don't know what I'm saying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think what you may have run into here is that, while there is \ncertainly /conflict, /there may or may not be /development /in the \ncharacters' perceptions of the true god. So to rephrase your question: \nwhy tell stories of gods revealing their changing \"natures\" to \ncharacters if the characters' idea of these gods does not change? Fair \nquestion. I think Silk's does, as has been discussed. Severian ... who \nknows. He's seen enough to blow several people's minds." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T17:07:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<553CBB46F53E4B35B509D5D607D1F61C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of\nscience, or economics, or poker,\"\n\nSo, repeatable experiments and mathematical models? How are these\napplicable to the study of \"the infinite\", especially when by \"the\ninfinite\" is meant, \"the divine\"?\n\n\"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally\nvalid is the silly end of relativism.\"\n\nNot really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid *on the topic of\nabsolute truth*\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n *From:* Lee Berman \n\n\n**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another assumption is that there is a one true God who is perfect and\nchoiceless and unchanging. As you suggest, any perceived changes or\npersonification of such a God (including calling it \"He\") are false. They\nare simply projections of human imperfection on a perfect God. But this\nmeans all religions are equally valid and/or equally false. Hindus,\nChristians\nand animists are all equally human and thus equally right and wrong\nabout the\nunknowable perfection of the \"real\" God. How could one group of humans\nhave\na better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of\nscience, or economics, or poker, or any other unsolved matter. To say that\nthe unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally valid is the\nsilly end of relativism.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68BEDA.6000605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T17:31:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " *From:* Lee Berman \n\n > How could one group of humans have\n > a better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 12:07 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views \nequally valid is the silly end of relativism.\"\n\nNot really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid /on the topic \nof absolute truth/\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless The Divine is not a concept like Economics or Geography, but \ninstead a Person like, for example, the Outsider who is not discovered \nor understood but instead reveals himself in finite ways to finite \nindividuals as he chooses.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T17:42:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F68BEDA.6000605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, the statement \"The same way that one group of humans could\nhave a better grasp of science, or economics, or poker,\" isn't true at all,\nbecause we don't advance in our understanding of these subjects by\nrevelation.\n\n\"Third person omniscience\" doesn't exist in real life; is it possible that\nSilk is delusional, and that his theophany was some combination of\nhallucination and wishful thinking? I think so. We are reading, after\nall, a sort of belated account written by Horn, right? What I am getting\nat is that there is no narrator that arbitrates experiences here on earth\n(religious or otherwise), and can tell outside observers (like Wolfe tells\nthe reader in *Long Sun*) whether or not someone has experienced a\nrevelation. That having been said, there is real justification for saying\nthat one class of persons can have a better or more accurate idea of \"the\ninfinite\" than any other, if the only evidence is based in revelation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:31 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " *From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " How could one group of humans have\na better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 12:07 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\n\"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally\nvalid is the silly end of relativism.\"\n\nNot really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid *on the topic of\nabsolute truth*\".\n\n\nUnless The Divine is not a concept like Economics or Geography, but\ninstead a Person like, for example, the Outsider who is not discovered or\nunderstood but instead reveals himself in finite ways to finite individuals\nas he chooses.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EE1645F589048F6AA610BB1768849C2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:17:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of science, \nor economics, or poker,\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, repeatable experiments and mathematical models? How are these applicable\nto the study of \"the infinite\", especially when by \"the infinite\" is meant, \"the divine\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should have said “analogous ways”, I suppose. (Though perhaps repeatable experiments and mathematical models could provide insight in some ways.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally valid is\nthe silly end of relativism.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid on the topic of absolute truth\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: “Silk is a good man in a bad religion.” Plainly he thinks that there can be better or worse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:22:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4EE1645F589048F6AA610BB1768849C2@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: “Silk is a good man in\na bad religion.” Plainly he thinks that there can be better or worse\nconceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\"\n\nThis seems to me more of a statement about Silk than the Divine. Also, now\nI can think of is Oreb continually assuring all players in the story that\nSilk is a \"good man!\". [?]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin \nOn Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n >\n\"The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of\nscience,\n >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or economics, or poker,\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, repeatable experiments and mathematical models? How are these\napplicable\n >\nto the study of \"the infinite\", especially when by \"the infinite\" is\nmeant, \"the divine\"?\n\n I should have said “analogous ways”, I suppose. (Though perhaps\nrepeatable experiments and mathematical models could provide insight in\nsome ways.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally\nvalid is\n >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the silly end of relativism.\"\n\n >\nNot really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid *on the topic of\nabsolute truth*\".\n\nActually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: “Silk is a good man in\na bad religion.” Plainly he thinks that there can be better or worse\nconceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68CCA9.407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still, if no one can tell good religions from bad, what else is there to \nsay about the topic? Why write about it, as Lee asks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 2:22 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\"Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: “Silk is a good \nman in a bad religion.” Plainly he thinks that there can be better or \nworse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\"\n\nThis seems to me more of a statement about Silk than the Divine. Also, \nnow I can think of is Oreb continually assuring all players in the \nstory that Silk is a \"good man!\".\n\nOn Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin \n > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n >\n > \"The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp\n of science,\n >\n >\n or economics, or poker,\"\n\n >\n So, repeatable experiments and mathematical models? How are these\n applicable\n >\n to the study of \"the infinite\", especially when by \"the infinite\"\n is meant, \"the divine\"?\n I should have said “analogous ways”, I suppose. (Though perhaps\n repeatable experiments and mathematical models could provide\n insight in some ways.)\n\n\n >\n >\n \"To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views\n equally valid is\n >\n >\n the silly end of relativism.\"\n >\n Not really, if you add the qualification \"equally valid /on the\n topic of absolute truth/\".\n\n Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: “Silk is a\n good man in a bad religion.” Plainly he thinks that there can be\n better or worse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:30:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: ?Silk is a \ngood man in a bad religion. Plainly he thinks that there can be \nbetter or worse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to me more of a statement about Silk than the Divine. Also, now I can think of is Oreb continually > assuring all players in the story that Silk is a \"good man!\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s mostly about Silk. But my point was: how can there be a bad religion, if all religions are equally valid?\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:31:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n...quoting Gerry..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: ?Silk is a good\nman in a bad religion. — Plainly he thinks that there can be better or\nworse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to me more of a statement about Silk than the Divine. Also, now I can think of is Oreb continually assuring all players in the story that Silk is a \"good man!\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to miss Gerry's point, which is that it's also a statement\nabout religions, that there can be good ones and bad ones." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:43:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But my point was: how can there be a bad religion, if all religions are\nequally valid?\"\n\nI think asking that question of the world of the *Long Sun* is very\ndifferent than asking it of our world. The statement about all religions\nbeing equally valid was saying they are all equally insufficient when it\ncomes to their knowledge of the Infinite, if the only tool on hand is\nrevelation. I might have misunderstood Lee initially, but I think he was\nsaying that they were all equally unable to claim knowledge of absolute\ntruth, not that they were all valid and true (which would, of course,\nresult in a ton of contradictions). We also don't know if by using the\nword \"bad\" Wolfe was speaking of \"truth\" at all; it could be a purely\nsociological usage. (Of course, the context is probably important ...\nanyone have a link to the interview?) Clearly the religion of Viron was\n\"bad\" for the citizens of that city in that it involved dealing with a\nmegalomaniac tyrant trapped in a computer, who would have harmed a great\nnumber of people if his wishes weren't met. Silk is concerned with the\ntheological accuracy of his religion, of course, but that doesn't mean that\nthere must be a \"true\" religion in the universe of the *Whorl.*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAntonin Scriabin wrote:\n...quoting Gerry..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Actually we have a relevant observation from Wolfe: ?Silk is a good\nman in a bad religion. Plainly he thinks that there can be better or\nworse conceptions of the Divine, even if all are imperfect.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This seems to me more of a statement about Silk than the Divine. Also,\nnow I can think of is Oreb continually assuring all players in the story\nthat Silk is a \"good man!\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to miss Gerry's point, which is that it's also a statement\nabout religions, that there can be good ones and bad ones.\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:53:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: So to rephrase your question: why tell stories of gods \nrevealing their changing \"natures\" to characters if the characters' idea \nof these gods does not change? Fair question. I think Silk's does, as has \nbeen discussed. Severian ... who knows. He's seen enough to blow several \npeople's minds. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks, I appreciate the rephrasing. It can help sometimes. Yes, surely \nSeverian, Silk and Horn have undergone massive personal, spiritual changes \nduring the course of the story. But is Wolfe saying that any differences in \nperception of God are purely due to differences in the perceiver? \n \nThis is a very static, impersonal view of God. And given Wolfe's extreme \ninterest in pagan mythology, I gather there is a part of him that needs more \ndynamism and personality in a deity, at least when he writes about it. A\nperfect, unchanging god who cannot and does not change and respond as people \nchange seems extremely boring. Hardly worth writing about. \n \nLet's say a person changes. Is it possible that God can do a Tzadkiel and pinch \noff a piece of Himself and that piece can relate to that changed person in a new\nway, while retaining the integrity and changeless perfection of the whole? This \nalmost sounds like what James was suggesting in his discussion with Antonin. Since \nI am not religious and have never had a personal encounter with God I must rely on \nthe reported experience of those who have. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Unless The Divine is not a concept like Economics or Geography, but \ninstead a Person like, for example, the Outsider who is not discovered \nor understood but instead reveals himself in finite ways to finite \nindividuals as he chooses. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this ties into my perception of an evolving God. In the early days \n(of Judeo-Christianity, who knows what God was doing before that), Yaweh was a God \nonly to the Hebrews. A god revealing him/herself only to selected, special people \nseems so pagan. My impression is that Paul opened the door of God and Christ to \neveryone. No longer does God reveal Himself only to a few selected Hebrew guys but\nHe is available to all who look for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be \nopened to you.\" Matthew 7:7" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How could one group of humans have a better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of \nscience, or economics, or poker, or any other unsolved matter. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis demonstrates an interesting world view. religion, science, money and social games\nare all activities which are performed for the purpose of determining personal \nsuperiority. Knowing more, making more money, beating others and worshipping the best\ngod is what life is all about. I have known a number of people who take this view. An\ninteresting group..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To say that the unknowability of absolute truth renders all views equally valid is the \nsilly end of relativism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnd what is the opposite of relativism? Absolutism? What is the silly end of that? Do we\nfind it on display in this forum? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68D281.30908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T18:54:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 12:42 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nIn that case, the statement \"The same way that one group of humans \ncould have a better grasp of science, or economics, or poker,\" isn't \ntrue at all, because we don't advance in our understanding of these \nsubjects by revelation.\n\n\"Third person omniscience\" doesn't exist in real life; is it possible \nthat Silk is delusional, and that his theophany was some combination \nof hallucination and wishful thinking? I think so. We are reading, \nafter all, a sort of belated account written by Horn, right? What I \nam getting at is that there is no narrator that arbitrates experiences \nhere on earth (religious or otherwise), and can tell outside observers \n(like Wolfe tells the reader in /Long Sun/) whether or not someone has \nexperienced a revelation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you agree with Crane. Actually, Crane could be right about the brain \naneurism and yet Silk's experiences with the Outsider could still be \n100% valid. Remember that Latro's ability as a bridge between the divine \nand the mundane is precipitated by a wound to the head. Someone tells \nhim that his wound is actually a curse-blessing from Demeter. I'm saying \nthat perhaps a physical change in Silk's brain is exactly how the \nOutsider opened him up to communicate with him. Crane sees it as damage, \nbut the Outsider understands it as a modification.\n\nAgain, in the Latro books, Io compares (I believe) the gods to \ncharacters in a play. The actors are all wearing masks but the \ncharacters in the play (the gods) are not aware of it. Even so, the \nWhorl gods are not aware that by their presumption, they have become a \nmask for the Outsider. I think this is a similar theme presented in \"A \nToy Theater\" in people go to see a puppet show but it turns out that \nTHEY are in the show...the puppeteer and the audience and the narrator \nare all puppets.\n\nThat said, the implication in all this is that Wolfe the author believes \nthere IS an actor behind the mask, a puppeteer pulling the strings, an \nOutsider subsuming the powers of the Whorl.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<90A28A7FCA0246F08C6E9B0B6BD2ECD0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T19:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How could one group of humans have a better grasp of the infinite than another?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The same way that one group of humans could have a better grasp of \nscience, or economics, or poker, or any other unsolved matter. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This demonstrates an interesting world view. religion, science, money and social games\nare all activities which are performed for the purpose of determining personal \nsuperiority. Knowing more, making more money, beating others and worshipping the best\ngod is what life is all about. I have known a number of people who take this view. An\ninteresting group..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no need for me to dwell on the inanity of drawing the above conclusion about my supposed world view from my observation that some people have a better grasp of some things than others do.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T19:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<90A28A7FCA0246F08C6E9B0B6BD2ECD0@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin: I might have misunderstood Lee initially, but I think he was\nsaying that they were all equally unable to claim knowledge of absolute\ntruth, not that they were all valid and true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou got me right, Antonin. I think the misunderstanding came from Gerry, perhaps \ndue to a certain anti-relativist position he may share with many Americans of my \nacquaintance. Within this ideology, moral relativism is confused with immorality \nor amorality and denounced. \n \nFor Gerry, it might be intellectual relativism which really bothers him.\nHe may not be a Christian but I think he believes that for every question there is\na true and correct answer waiting to be found which does not depend on the point\nof view of the questioner. Kinda like math. I am interested to know if Gerry\nagrees." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Dannehy-Oakes: You seem to miss Gerry's point, which is that it's also \na statement about religions, that there can be good ones and bad ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, now I think we are getting somewhere. Wolfe does seem to think there are \ngood religions and bad ones. In intervews he says the pagan gods were real but\nundeserving of the worship they received.\n \nBut he never says why. Nor do I think you could get a straight answer from\nWolfe if you asked him what makes a religion bad or good. I think this is directly\nrooted in his Christianity. You see it in Tolkein and Lewis also. Probably due to\nits judaic roots, I think there is an inherent assumption of superiority in \nChristianity. (in contrast say, to Hindu-Buddhism with acknowledgement of 10,000\nnames and paths to God)\n\nI started a thread once called \"What's So Great About Ushas\" and I'm not sure the\nquestion ever really was answered. My answer is that Ushas is better than Urth because\nit is closer to Christianity. Worship of The Outsider is better than worship of Pas\nand his family because it is closer to Christianity.\n \nI don't think any other firm explanations are offered and, to a Judeo-Christian \naudience, none are needed. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T19:52:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nDan'l Dannehy-Oakes:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only one \"n\" in my last name. But anyway..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, now I think we are getting somewhere. Wolfe does seem to think there\nare good religions and bad ones. In intervews he says the pagan gods were\nreal but undeserving of the worship they received.\n\nBut he never says why." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that, to a Christian point of view, the answer is clear:\nbecause they, like us, are created beings, and therefore not inherenly\nworth more than we. (Look at the root of \"worship:\" worth-scipe, worth\nof renown.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?Nor do I think you could get a straight answer from\nWolfe if you asked him what makes a religion bad or good. I think this is\ndirectly rooted in his Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree with the latter statement, I'm not sure about the\nformer. If he refused to give a straight answer, it would be more due\nto his general canniness than to anything about that particular\nquestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You see it in Tolkein and Lewis also. Probably due to\nits judaic roots, I think there is an inherent assumption of superiority in\nChristianity. (in contrast say, to Hindu-Buddhism with acknowledgement of\n10,000 names and paths to God)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. A friend of mine was a missionary (of a church far more\nevangelical than I'm comfortable with) in India, and said that when\nyou tell an educated Hindu \"Jesus is God,\" they shrug and say, \"Yes,\nand who isn't?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68E0CA.3090403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T19:55:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 2:35 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI started a thread once called \"What's So Great About Ushas\" and I'm not sure the\nquestion ever really was answered. My answer is that Ushas is better than Urth because\nit is closer to Christianity. Worship of The Outsider is better than worship of Pas\nand his family because it is closer to Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to tread ground that has already been trod, but it seems to \nme that this conflates two things that are connected only at different \nlevels. Ushas is better from the position of the Heirogrammates because \nit sets humanity on the course to producing the Heiros. No Ushas, no Heiros.\n\nPresumaby, it is better from the position of the Pancreator for some \nlarger plan. In either case, one might as well ask the surgeon \"What is \nso great about a man losing his legs?\" or ask an architect \"What is so \ngreat all those trees being mowed down to lay a foundation?\"\n\nAs for Outsider worship versus Christianity, I think you are confusing \n(from Wolfe's perspective and that of most Christians) the form of \nworship rather than it's true object. Outsider worship is better just as \nChristianity is better because they are both worship of the True God \nrather than Whorl daemons. The Outsider IS the God of the Bible. This is \ncommunicated in the Outsider's direct association with the god of Jesus \nin the Chrasmological Writings and implied in Quetzal's remark about \n\"A-lah\" in his retelling of the Adam & Eve story. \"We seem to have lost \ntrack of A-lah.\" Now Marc Aramini and Antony Scriabin suspect that the \nOutsider Silk communicates with is not the true Outsider of the \nWritings. That's another issue.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T19:57:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F68E0CA.3090403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There is no need for me to dwell on the inanity of \ndrawing the above conclusion about my supposed world view from my \nobservation that some people have a better grasp of some things than \nothers do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSorry Gerry, I didn't mean to offend you. You have to admit that your choice\nof listing Knowledge of God, Science, Economics and card playing was an \ninteresting collection of activities in a discussion of ranking people's\nknowledge against others.\n \nYou seem like a very competitive guy in your dialogue here. You once compared \nyourself to the scorpion who stings the frog giving him a ride across the river. \nI took this to mean you took pride in your competitive, combative nature. \nI didn't know mentioning it would offend you. Apologies again. Many times I \nhave praised your contributions to this board and I still do so.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68E1EC.70803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T20:00:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F68B564.7080303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A post from Michael Swanwick about the event:\nhttp://floggingbabel.blogspot.com/2012/03/wolfe-fete.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 11:50 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nSome pictures from the event:\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3588087063033.2169083.1299000908&type=3 \n \n\n\nhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/shunn/with/6847530346/\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/terramysterium\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.292505460818737.67044.123502224385729&type=1 \n \n\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/lawrence.santoro\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2k_6zclwTs&feature=share \n\n\n\nSome things I forgot to mention:\n\n* Neil Gaiman's speech included a full reading of \"A Solar Labyrinth\".\n\n* During Gene's speech he made a point of calling out a few specific \npeople who had come to the event. One of those was Marc Aramini. \n\"Where is Marc? Where is he sitting?\" We were all in the balcony and \nMantis and I were waving our hands like maniacs to attract his \nattention to us.\n\n\n\nOn 3/19/2012 11:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. Let's see what I can add to what Marc posted:\n\nThis initial ceremonies were instituted in a house that --as Wolfe \nremarked-- appeared to be the sort of place that you have to use a \npassword just to enter. The performance hall was built around a giant \nWurlitzer that could be automatically sunk entirely into the stage \nfloor. The pipes and brass horns surrounded us on all sides. Also it \nwas filled with amazing giant mechanical player organs for the turn \nof the century (the last one). There was a player bango I saw there \ntoo. The house architecture was of the sort that you would expect \nsomeone from each event held there would disappear and forced to \neternally serve as staff.\n\nThis house was filled with surely every early model of gramophone and \nother recorded player ever produced prior to 1920. Also lots of art \ndeco furniture, figurines, and stained glass. Also\n\nGary K. Wolfe gave the first speech. Gene Wolfe later noted that Gary \nusually points out that he and Gene are not brothers or even related \nto which Gene always responds \"I'm telling Ma!\" Michael Swanwick gave \na speech. The Gaiman gave the award, offering a speech that drew a \nlot from him Guardian article from Wolfe's birthday last year.\n\nMarc's summary of Wolfe's speech is accurate but I'll give more \ndetail to something he mentioned. He took questions after his speech. \nSomeone shouted out (humorously) was \"Where do you get your ideas!\" \nThis led Wolfe to answer another common question he gets\" \"Why do you \nwrite?\" The answer to this was \"So I don't have to explain why I'm \nnot working.\" And then he told a story about the sale of \"Car \nSinister\" (collected in \"Book of Days\"/\"Castle of Days\"). He would do \nall his writing in the early morning before the distractions of work \nand kids. In 1969?, they needed money to buy school clothes for their \nfour children, but they didn't really have it. Then he sold the story \nfor $80 (which went a lot further then than it does now). He cashed \nthe check and gave Rosemary four 20s explaining that it was all the \nmoney he got from the sale of the story and she now had $20 for each \nkid. So not long afterwards he's doing so manual repair work around \nthe house and Rosemary came up to him and said \"Shouldn't you be \nwriting?\"\n\nThen there was the terrific adaptation of \"A Toy Theater\" (adapted by \n/Larry Santoro/). And I think, having seen it, everyone should now \nagree with me that not only is Stromboli a puppet, but so is the \nnarrator and everyone else. Wolfe is the sole puppeteer. They worked \nin \"Coin Operated Boy\" by Amanda Palmer (Neil Gaiman's wife) of \"The \nDresden Dolls\". The actors were tremendous singers as well. The play \nwas accompanied by the Wurlitzer.\n\nAfter the play, we had the Wurlitzer performance, in which he also \ndid another rendition of \"Coin Operated Boy\" which leads me to \nbelieve that Wolfe has an especial affection for this song right now, \nsince I know that the organist had asked his family for a favorite \nsong of Gene's that he could perform. It was the only song that \nappeared to be not part of his usual repertoire.\n\nThen we proceeded to the building where we ate. This was essentially \na barn containing more giant music players. Also, a huge turn of the \ncentury circus carrousel. The walls were festooned with vintage movie \nposters and side show posters. In another room, they had aisle upon \naisle of early steam engines. The whole thing was a steam punk dream.\n\nI sat with Marc and Patrick O'Leary and also Jill Thompson the \nillustrator. I wish I had googled her at the table because I \ndiscovered afterwards that I was a huge fan of hers. I have the \nentire 80s Elementals series, and the Dead Boy Detective series, and \nBlack Orchid. And of course of have the \"Fables and Reflections\" \nSandman volume (Wolfe wrote the introduction). Instead, of a friendly \nconversation with her, I could have had an amazing conversation with \nher.\n\nPeter Sagal of NPR's \"Wait Wait Don't Tell Me\" was the master of \nceremonies. When I heard this was the case, I thought \"Eh...big name \nand local to Chicago but....\" However, it turns out he's a huge SF \nliterature fan. He's one of us. It was totally appropriate. He \nboosted the \"John Carter\" movie which made Mantis quite happy because \nhe would ask everyone he met if they saw it and what they thought of \nit. Mantis is huge Burroughs fan and he was not looking forward to \nthis adaption. He was quite happily surprised. However, he had not \nnoted all the Burroughs references in \"The Long Sun/Short Sun\" so I \nwas glad to be the first to point them out to him.\n\nIncidentally, Mantis is about to release a Lexicon Urthus-style book \non \"The Long Sun\" and \"The Short Sun.\"\n\nDavid Hartwell gave a speech in which he described why Wolfe is so \ndifficult to edit. He would try to do due diligence as an editor and \nwould say things like \"I don't think it's clear why such-and-such.\" \nTo which Wolfe responds, \"Well, you must have only skimmed the book.\" \nSo Hartwell always reads every manuscript twice before making editing \nsuggestions.\n\nThis lead Patrick O'Leary to recount how Hartwell has once noted that \nWolfe had used the exact same word to describe the color of separate \nwomen's aureolas. Wolfe's initial response was \"But they ARE the same \ncolor.\" But he then conceded that it was a mistake. And, of course, \nif that had got through, I WOULD be convinced that despite all \nreason, that WAS the same woman or at least the same breast.\n\nBy, the way, Hartwell's anthologies are absolutely the best IMO. Not \njust \"The Years Best\" series. I mean the ones where he gets to pick \nfrom all eras to compile stories based on a them. I strongly \nrecommend the two \"Masterpieces\" books. But he has others that you \ncan almost fill a shelf with and that's exactly what you should do.\n\nAfter we ate, we all had to ride the huge vintage carrousel. I was a \nlittle worried that I would get off as child or an (even) old(er) \nman. Aside for horses, it also spinner seats (like the tea cups at \nDisneyland). And it also had carriages which we assumed was for \ngrandmothers to be able to ride with their kids---until the ride \nstarted and we discovered that the carriages teeter wildly left and \nright through the entire ride. It was probably the most harrowing \nchoice of all.\n\nIt was a disappointment that Rosemary couldn't be there this time due \nto health reasons. I *think* this is the first event I've been to \nwith Wolfe in which she wasn't there. She is a really sweet person \nwho is obviously crazy about Gene.\n\nIt was great to meet Marc face-to-face after all these years. And \nNick and Jensen. It was great to see Mantis and Gene's daughter Teri \nagain. I missed all the the people who couldn't make it. By the way, \nTeri is now working with Cheeky Frawg books \n(http://www.cheekyfrawg.com/about.html) which seems devoted to \nbringing under-recognized literature to e-book format. Check it out.\n\n\n\nJ.\n\nOn 3/18/2012 7:13 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my \nflight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby \n(my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a \nbrief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive home.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job \ngetting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The \natmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, \nwith the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that \nwas masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to \nStar Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the \nsetting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's \ndream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his \ndate, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post \nactively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably \nmispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind \nI harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are \nactually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I \nhad never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth \nit. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected \nfrom the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with all \nof them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have \nnot had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal \nstories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) \nthe guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. \nMichael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David \nHartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner \ntable with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into \nthe reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he \nwanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his \nreasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), \nand said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend \nwho came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and \nenergy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of \nthe highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and \nbrilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the chance \nto meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics to come!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<70CED8D71761457D97489AD5A6CDC1C6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T20:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonin Scriabin: I might have misunderstood Lee initially, but I think he was\nsaying that they were all equally unable to claim knowledge of absolute\ntruth, not that they were all valid and true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You got me right, Antonin. I think the misunderstanding came from Gerry, perhaps \ndue to a certain anti-relativist position he may share with many Americans of my \nacquaintance. Within this ideology, moral relativism is confused with immorality \nor amorality and denounced. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I objected to was your assertion that “this means all religions are equally valid and/or equally false.” If you meant something different from what this says, the misunderstanding is not mine.\n\nAs for relativism, I spoke of the “silly end” of it, which should suggest that I do not find the concept of relativism silly in its entirety. This applies not only to moral relativism, but to the cultural relativism that is relevant here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For Gerry, it might be intellectual relativism which really bothers him.\nHe may not be a Christian but I think he believes that for every question there is\na true and correct answer waiting to be found which does not depend on the point\nof view of the questioner. Kinda like math. I am interested to know if Gerry\nagrees." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don’t think that that applies to all questions. One could invoke paradoxes by asking questions which pertained in part to the point of view of the questioner. One could consider questions about what someone ought to do. And one could point to surprising observations such as the absence of counterfactual definiteness in quantum theory.\n\nBut in general, I do think that most well-formed questions have correct answers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I started a thread once called \"What's So Great About Ushas\" and I'm not sure the\nquestion ever really was answered. My answer is that Ushas is better than Urth because\nit is closer to Christianity. Worship of The Outsider is better than worship of Pas\nand his family because it is closer to Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ushas is better than Urth because Urth is a moribund planet that will be dead in a few chiliads.\n\nWorship of the Outsider is better than worship of Pas because it is closer to the truth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E2D40BA8DEC4A9880C60F7B6BFA67FE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T20:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There is no need for me to dwell on the inanity of \ndrawing the above conclusion about my supposed world view from my \nobservation that some people have a better grasp of some things than \nothers do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry Gerry, I didn't mean to offend you. You have to admit that your choice\nof listing Knowledge of God, Science, Economics and card playing was an \ninteresting collection of activities in a discussion of ranking people's\nknowledge against others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The examples I picked were merely a more or less random though deliberately disparate group of fields in which it is generally agreed that we have some knowledge, but far from perfect knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem like a very competitive guy in your dialogue here. You once compared " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yourself to the scorpion who stings the frog giving him a ride across the river. \nI took this to mean you took pride in your competitive, combative nature. \nI didn't know mentioning it would offend you. Apologies again. Many times I \nhave praised your contributions to this board and I still do so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I think you well know, I was not referring to myself when I alluded to the scorpion.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68EA17.9050404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T20:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F68E1EC.70803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More stuff as I remember it:\n\nAt our table, Patrick O'Leary openly speculated at our table that \n*perhaps* Wolfe was influenced to use the name Palatine Hill in \"Long \nSun\" by the township Palatine nearby to Barrington Hills (Wolfe's town). \nSettling on the question, he got up from our table to ask. Mantis was at \nWolfe's table at the time and reported the exchange. Wolfe responded, \n\"Well, there was also the Roman hill called Palatine where the Roman \nruling class lived. I suppose it is likely the town was named after \nthat...\"\n\nI only mention this, not to advertise that O'Leary's inquiry was deemed \nunfounded by Wolfe, but to not that he had the balls to do something I \nnever have. Also, it made it clear that he considered Wolfe's writings \nand word choices the same way I do. He was one of mine.\n\nO'Leary asserted he had read the full New Sun saga a dozen times. He \nclaimed that the entire story is summarized in the opening pages. That \nhe even got some of the \"Short Sun\" in there. If I had had a copy of \n\"Shadow\" with me, I would have had him break it down.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 3:00 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nA post from Michael Swanwick about the event:\nhttp://floggingbabel.blogspot.com/2012/03/wolfe-fete.html\n\n\nOn 3/20/2012 11:50 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some pictures from the event:\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3588087063033.2169083.1299000908&type=3 \n \n\n\nhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/shunn/with/6847530346/\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/terramysterium\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.292505460818737.67044.123502224385729&type=1 \n \n\n\nhttps://www.facebook.com/lawrence.santoro\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2k_6zclwTs&feature=share \n\n\n\nSome things I forgot to mention:\n\n* Neil Gaiman's speech included a full reading of \"A Solar Labyrinth\".\n\n* During Gene's speech he made a point of calling out a few specific \npeople who had come to the event. One of those was Marc Aramini. \n\"Where is Marc? Where is he sitting?\" We were all in the balcony and \nMantis and I were waving our hands like maniacs to attract his \nattention to us.\n\n\n\nOn 3/19/2012 11:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Okay. Let's see what I can add to what Marc posted:\n\nThis initial ceremonies were instituted in a house that --as Wolfe \nremarked-- appeared to be the sort of place that you have to use a \npassword just to enter. The performance hall was built around a \ngiant Wurlitzer that could be automatically sunk entirely into the \nstage floor. The pipes and brass horns surrounded us on all sides. \nAlso it was filled with amazing giant mechanical player organs for \nthe turn of the century (the last one). There was a player bango I \nsaw there too. The house architecture was of the sort that you would \nexpect someone from each event held there would disappear and forced \nto eternally serve as staff.\n\nThis house was filled with surely every early model of gramophone \nand other recorded player ever produced prior to 1920. Also lots of \nart deco furniture, figurines, and stained glass. Also\n\nGary K. Wolfe gave the first speech. Gene Wolfe later noted that \nGary usually points out that he and Gene are not brothers or even \nrelated to which Gene always responds \"I'm telling Ma!\" Michael \nSwanwick gave a speech. The Gaiman gave the award, offering a speech \nthat drew a lot from him Guardian article from Wolfe's birthday last \nyear.\n\nMarc's summary of Wolfe's speech is accurate but I'll give more \ndetail to something he mentioned. He took questions after his \nspeech. Someone shouted out (humorously) was \"Where do you get your \nideas!\" This led Wolfe to answer another common question he gets\" \n\"Why do you write?\" The answer to this was \"So I don't have to \nexplain why I'm not working.\" And then he told a story about the \nsale of \"Car Sinister\" (collected in \"Book of Days\"/\"Castle of \nDays\"). He would do all his writing in the early morning before the \ndistractions of work and kids. In 1969?, they needed money to buy \nschool clothes for their four children, but they didn't really have \nit. Then he sold the story for $80 (which went a lot further then \nthan it does now). He cashed the check and gave Rosemary four 20s \nexplaining that it was all the money he got from the sale of the \nstory and she now had $20 for each kid. So not long afterwards he's \ndoing so manual repair work around the house and Rosemary came up to \nhim and said \"Shouldn't you be writing?\"\n\nThen there was the terrific adaptation of \"A Toy Theater\" (adapted \nby /Larry Santoro/). And I think, having seen it, everyone should \nnow agree with me that not only is Stromboli a puppet, but so is the \nnarrator and everyone else. Wolfe is the sole puppeteer. They worked \nin \"Coin Operated Boy\" by Amanda Palmer (Neil Gaiman's wife) of \"The \nDresden Dolls\". The actors were tremendous singers as well. The play \nwas accompanied by the Wurlitzer.\n\nAfter the play, we had the Wurlitzer performance, in which he also \ndid another rendition of \"Coin Operated Boy\" which leads me to \nbelieve that Wolfe has an especial affection for this song right \nnow, since I know that the organist had asked his family for a \nfavorite song of Gene's that he could perform. It was the only song \nthat appeared to be not part of his usual repertoire.\n\nThen we proceeded to the building where we ate. This was essentially \na barn containing more giant music players. Also, a huge turn of the \ncentury circus carrousel. The walls were festooned with vintage \nmovie posters and side show posters. In another room, they had aisle \nupon aisle of early steam engines. The whole thing was a steam punk \ndream.\n\nI sat with Marc and Patrick O'Leary and also Jill Thompson the \nillustrator. I wish I had googled her at the table because I \ndiscovered afterwards that I was a huge fan of hers. I have the \nentire 80s Elementals series, and the Dead Boy Detective series, and \nBlack Orchid. And of course of have the \"Fables and Reflections\" \nSandman volume (Wolfe wrote the introduction). Instead, of a \nfriendly conversation with her, I could have had an amazing \nconversation with her.\n\nPeter Sagal of NPR's \"Wait Wait Don't Tell Me\" was the master of \nceremonies. When I heard this was the case, I thought \"Eh...big name \nand local to Chicago but....\" However, it turns out he's a huge SF \nliterature fan. He's one of us. It was totally appropriate. He \nboosted the \"John Carter\" movie which made Mantis quite happy \nbecause he would ask everyone he met if they saw it and what they \nthought of it. Mantis is huge Burroughs fan and he was not looking \nforward to this adaption. He was quite happily surprised. However, \nhe had not noted all the Burroughs references in \"The Long Sun/Short \nSun\" so I was glad to be the first to point them out to him.\n\nIncidentally, Mantis is about to release a Lexicon Urthus-style book \non \"The Long Sun\" and \"The Short Sun.\"\n\nDavid Hartwell gave a speech in which he described why Wolfe is so \ndifficult to edit. He would try to do due diligence as an editor and \nwould say things like \"I don't think it's clear why such-and-such.\" \nTo which Wolfe responds, \"Well, you must have only skimmed the \nbook.\" So Hartwell always reads every manuscript twice before making \nediting suggestions.\n\nThis lead Patrick O'Leary to recount how Hartwell has once noted \nthat Wolfe had used the exact same word to describe the color of \nseparate women's aureolas. Wolfe's initial response was \"But they \nARE the same color.\" But he then conceded that it was a mistake. \nAnd, of course, if that had got through, I WOULD be convinced that \ndespite all reason, that WAS the same woman or at least the same \nbreast.\n\nBy, the way, Hartwell's anthologies are absolutely the best IMO. Not \njust \"The Years Best\" series. I mean the ones where he gets to pick \nfrom all eras to compile stories based on a them. I strongly \nrecommend the two \"Masterpieces\" books. But he has others that you \ncan almost fill a shelf with and that's exactly what you should do.\n\nAfter we ate, we all had to ride the huge vintage carrousel. I was a \nlittle worried that I would get off as child or an (even) old(er) \nman. Aside for horses, it also spinner seats (like the tea cups at \nDisneyland). And it also had carriages which we assumed was for \ngrandmothers to be able to ride with their kids---until the ride \nstarted and we discovered that the carriages teeter wildly left and \nright through the entire ride. It was probably the most harrowing \nchoice of all.\n\nIt was a disappointment that Rosemary couldn't be there this time \ndue to health reasons. I *think* this is the first event I've been \nto with Wolfe in which she wasn't there. She is a really sweet \nperson who is obviously crazy about Gene.\n\nIt was great to meet Marc face-to-face after all these years. And \nNick and Jensen. It was great to see Mantis and Gene's daughter Teri \nagain. I missed all the the people who couldn't make it. By the way, \nTeri is now working with Cheeky Frawg books \n(http://www.cheekyfrawg.com/about.html) which seems devoted to \nbringing under-recognized literature to e-book format. Check it out.\n\n\n\nJ.\n\nOn 3/18/2012 7:13 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I am at the hotel in Chicago now getting everything ready for my \nflight back to Vegas, and I noticed a little computer in the lobby \n(my phone is low tech - for calling) so I figured I would give a \nbrief summary of events. I will expand more later after I arrive \nhome.\n\nAWESOME event. Valya and the coordinators did a wonderful job \ngetting together a very interesting and entertaining evening. The \natmosphere and weather were wonderful, and the estate was amazing, \nwith the highlight (of the facility) being an 8000 pipe organ that \nwas masterfully played by their organist, from coin operated boy to \nStar Wars. The Toy Theater story adaptation was perfect for the \nsetting, and as James Wynn commented, the estate was a steampunk's \ndream come true, probably the best way to describe it.\n\nI got to meet James Wynn, Michael Andre-Druissi, Nick Lee and his \ndate, and Jensen and his wife from the list (if they don't all post \nactively, they have at least frequented it). I have probably \nmispelled the even names. I have to admit that a priori in my mind \nI harbored the idea that we must be somewhat nerdy, but we are \nactually a pretty sharp bunch even when it comes to appearance. I \nhad never gone to a con or anything before, and this was well worth \nit. It was a much more handsome and dignified group than I expected \nfrom the Urth list, both women and men. I enjoyed speaking with \nall of them.\n\nCraig, I didn't see your email before I drove up to Vegas and have \nnot had access to a computer until now, I apologize. The personal \nstories related by Neil Gaiman and Lawrence (was it Sarrantonio?) \nthe guy who adapted the Toy Theater were profound and touching. \nMichael Swanwick had some great things to say as well, as did David \nHartwell. Patrick O'Leary and his wife were sitting at my dinner \ntable with James Wynn, and they were also great.\n\nI will try to get some photos online Monday; I still have to fly back.\n\nGene's acceptance speech was hilarious and touching. It went into \nthe reason for his style (four kids and a wife hollering if he \nwanted bacon while he was trying to write in a small place), his \nreasons for writing (easier than repairing stuff around the house), \nand said he wanted to make sure to personally insult every friend \nwho came. He is a wonderful speaker, and there is a sharpness and \nenergy to him that makes the years fade when he starts to talk.\n\nI will post more later, but it was a truly great evening and one of \nthe highlights of my life. Gene has always been a kind and \nbrilliant man, and he still is. I really enjoyed getting the \nchance to meet everyone there. I will post more later. Some pics \nto come!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T21:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<3E2D40BA8DEC4A9880C60F7B6BFA67FE@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Ushas is better from the position of the Heirogrammates because \nit sets humanity on the course to producing the Heiros. No Ushas, no Heiros.\nPresumaby, it is better from the position of the Pancreator for some \nlarger plan. In either case, one might as well ask the surgeon \"What is \nso great about a man losing his legs?\"...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outsider worship is better just as Christianity is better because they are both \nworship of the True God rather than Whorl daemons. The Outsider IS the God of \nthe Bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Worship of the Outsider is better than worship of Pas because it is \ncloser to the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFirst of all, nice overall post, James. \n \nMy point about Christianity remains implicit in your answer (and Gerry's). We\ndon't question the surgical removal of legs because of an implicit assumption\nthat the upper body is more important than the lower; that life is more valuable\nthan death. Such things seem so obvious as to be above discussion perhaps. But\nyour answer suggests that the superiority of Hiero life to human life is equivalent\nto the superiority of head and heart over legs. Likewise, the way and the truth of\nChristianity is implicitly favored over other religions without the need for \njustification. \n \nThe assumption of inherent superiority of Christianity is in Wolfe's work\nas much as in your answer. We might seem some passing mention of the ickiness\nand cruelty of other religions but it is unnecessary. In fact, you don't\nmention it, which is probably good as it might invite the argument over ickiness\nand cruelty which can be found in Judeo-Christianity. As Gerry says, Christians\nfeel they are superior because they know the truth.\n \nIn contrast, as Dan'l's post illustrates, a Hindu might say that Pas worship can \nbe just as legitimate a path to the Truth as Outsider worship, as Dionysus worship, as \nOannes/Abaia worship, as The Mother worship etc. It is a different basic assumption and \nit gives Asian art forms a different flavor than Western forms,\nin my experience.\n \nI'm just saying I think it is important to openly acknowledge the Christian belief\nin One Truth Only, for a full understanding of Wolfe's work, especially if he is \nconsidered to be a Christian writer.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T21:17:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nLikewise, the way and the truth of\nChristianity is implicitly favored over other religions without the need for\njustification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. Wolfe is not writing apologetics; he is writing fantasy/sf in which\nthe truth is, repeatedly and by different devices, hidden, and its revelation\nis salvific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The assumption of inherent superiority of Christianity is in Wolfe's work\nas much as in your answer. We might seem some passing mention of the\nickiness and cruelty of other religions but it is unnecessary. In fact, you\ndon't mention it, which is probably good as it might invite the argument\nover ickiness and cruelty which can be found in Judeo-Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would go so far as to say that there is _less_ ickiness and cruelty in\nChristianity than in most other religions (I might except Zen Buddhism)\n-- incluiding Marxism, which is a religion screaming that it isn't.\n\nThe fact that we in the Western World do not take slavery, the murder\nand rape of peasants by nobles, and so on as just \"the way things are\"\nis due to the civilizing influence of Christianity. It may turn out in the end\nthat this influence has made us weak and that certain other religious\ntraditions, which do not have this weakness, may conquer in the end.\nI don't know. But I like a Christianized world much better than any other.\n\nWolfe's worlds where the truth is hidden are generally brutal,\nunpleasant places to live. I certainly wouldn't want to live in the\nCommonwealth, or on the Whorl, or in Mythgarthr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just saying I think it is important to openly acknowledge the Christian\nbelief in One Truth Only, for a full understanding of Wolfe's work,\nespecially if he is considered to be a Christian writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<504800C0A085401D94B7A041D1CFBF76@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T21:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Gerry says, Christians feel they are superior because they know the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have never said anything of the sort. Please stop putting words in my mouth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T21:40:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<504800C0A085401D94B7A041D1CFBF76@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As Gerry says, Christians feel they are superior because they know the\ntruth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have never said anything of the sort. Please stop putting words in my\nmouth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly you would be more comfortable with the following statement\n(as a Christian I certainly am):\n\nMany Christians feel that their religion is superior because it is [or\nis closest to] the truth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<105E144EAC9842F6B0DAF4EC90E755A0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T22:04:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As Gerry says, Christians feel they are superior because they know the\ntruth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have never said anything of the sort. Please stop putting words in my\nmouth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly you would be more comfortable with the following statement\n(as a Christian I certainly am):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many Christians feel that their religion is superior because it is [or\nis closest to] the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine with that. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F68FED5.1090802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-20T22:04:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 5:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman\nAs Gerry says, Christians feel they are superior because they know the truth.\nI have never said anything of the sort. Please stop putting words in my\nmouth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly you would be more comfortable with the following statement\n(as a Christian I certainly am):\n\nMany Christians feel that their religion is superior because it is [or\nis closest to] the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, perhaps,\n\nMany Christians feel that their religion is superior because/they think/ it is [or\nis closest to] the truth.\n\nWhich only makes sense, because the only other reasons to stick to any \nreligion are habit and ignorance, or force.\n\nHowever, most people can be expected to understand their religion best; \ntherefore, that religion and its heuristics (if any) may in fact the \nbest approach to truth for them, in the same way that a hoplite should \nprobably not take up the longbow. To each workman, his own tools." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6901B9.3070806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-20T22:16:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/20/2012 4:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMy point about Christianity remains implicit in your answer (and Gerry's). We\ndon't question the surgical removal of legs because of an implicit assumption\nthat the upper body is more important than the lower; that life is more valuable\nthan death. Such things seem so obvious as to be above discussion perhaps. But\nyour answer suggests that the superiority of Hiero life to human life is equivalent\nto the superiority of head and heart over legs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to the Heirogrammates, the existence of the Heiros (not any \nspecific Heiros so far as we know) are more important than the continued \nlives of the specific Urthlings at the time of deluge and of the \nexistence their descendents. Remember that from the perspective of the \nHeirogrammates, anything they do or do not do makes them culpable for \nlives destroyed. They KNOW what might have been.\n\nThere is a mostly unstated axiom of Judeo-Christianity that is shared \nand explicitly stated in Stoicism: \"The world as it is, the the best of \nall possible worlds.\" Right now you are perhaps suffering. In 1944, \ninjustice was law in Germany. God is omnipotent and could have acted to \nstop it, just as he stopped the Assyrians from destroying Jerusalem and \n(by implication) stopped the Persian emperor from wiping out the Jews in \nthe book of Esther. But God is benevolent and sees the whole picture and \nhas chosen the way things are. He doesn't justify himself to humanity. \nThat's the moral of God's speech to Job: \"You want an explanation for \nwhy, you, an objectively super-moral man, is has been tormented? When \nyou've seen what I've seen, come back and I'll explain my decisions.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Likewise, the way and the truth of\nChristianity is implicitly favored over other religions without the need for\njustification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right.\n\nAct 17:29-30 Being God's offspring, then, we shouldn't think that the \ndivine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by \nhuman art and imagination. Having overlooked this behavior during the \nTimes of Ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent. ~ \nPaul preaching in Athens" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Gerry says, Christians\nfeel they are superior because they know the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christians view the gospel message as the only suitable one because they \nbelieve Jesus Christ is God's personal revelation. I can't think of a \ndoctrine of any sect that teaches this makes Christians themselves \nsuperior (although Christians have many times acted as though it does). \nI think it is in Ephesians that Paul says even the will to repent and \nbelieve the gospel is a divine act of God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just saying I think it is important to openly acknowledge the Christian belief\nin One Truth Only, for a full understanding of Wolfe's work, especially if he is\nconsidered to be a Christian writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332293356.48363.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T01:29:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 3/19/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 19, 2012, 4:22 PM\n\n\nAre you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of Cerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a one unified piece? ?Just curious...\n\n\n-DOJP\n\nSince Fifth Head has been discussed a lot, I feel I should probably treat it as one piece and perhaps tackle it after the other fiction, if at all. I will let you know ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332293956.71597.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T01:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F67ADAB.1000307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/19/2012 5:05 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee:\nI mean the God of the OT recognizes the existence of rival gods,\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the early books, but not the later ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It never occurred to me that in the early books of Bible God is ever depicted as actually feeling to be in competition with actual rivals (as opposed to /effective/ competition for the affections of his worshipers). While the early books seem to assume that His worshipers DO believe in rival gods, the upshot of the storytelling seems to imply that the true circumstances are otherwise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shouldn't have said that in the OT God recognizes the existence of other gods, since I'm not sure he does. As you say, his worshipers do, even Moses (Ex. 15:11: \"Who is like you among the gods, Yahweh?\"), and God never takes any of the opportunities to correct them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Genesis, he condemns Sodom and Gomorrah even though they do not appear to be his worshipers. In Genesis one never seems to encounter a god he must compete with or overcome. In Exodus, God plagues the Egyptians and their gods are not even addressed. In Numbers, Balaam's prophecy seems to assume one God who blesses and condemns. Also, in 1 Samuel, when the Philistines capture the Ark of the Covenant, they offer it before Dagan. Then the next morning the find the idol fallen forward on its face in front of the Ark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly suggesting that God beat Dagon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also in 1 Kings when the Aramites decide that the gods of the Israelites are gods of the hills. So they decide to fight them in the plains where they can be easily defeated. So God thrashes them extra hard to make a point.\nAnd in Job, argued to be the earliest book written," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I thought it was supposed to be post-Exilic. Why couldn't those people put copyright dates on their books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is really no credible alternative to God offered even though Job's worship of God does not protect him from harm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that there's no clear evidence of God's interactions with other gods. But there's no clear evidence of monotheism till Second Isaiah (Is. 44:6), I'm told, so it seems likely that the authors of the books agreed with the characters that there were other Gods, but the Israelites were supposed to worship just one.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T01:56:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332293356.48363.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since it usually takes me more than a month to read a month's worth of\ntales, I launched my variant on this tonight. I started on The Very Best of\nGW (the PS Publishing volume) with Kim Stanley Robinson's introduction (I\nhave a feeling that many on this list could give Stan a run for his money\nwhen it comes to analysis of GW's works) and then on to \"The Island of\nDoctor Death and Other Stories\".\n\nI do not think I have read this story since I first encountered it in Orbit\nway back when (what an anthology series that was), as I did not remember\nmuch of the story other than the title. Edgar Rice Burroughs meets,\nwho...Faulkner? Kerouac? Salinger?\n\nThe excerpts from the book are fun, nicely capturing Wells and Burroughs\n(Edgar Rice). And when the character's appear it is not artificial (if that\nmakes sense).\n\nResisting urge to skip ahead and read the others in the sequence. Will take\nthe book as it is presented.\n\nStan mentions candidates for a second volume. Second volume? Has that made\nany progress?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Mon, 3/19/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332301998.26762.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T03:53:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd love to keep up with this. Marc, would you let us know which ones you plan on reading? I've actually got a lot of the short stories that I haven't even read, to be honest. This would be a great way to finally overcome that.\n\n\n\n \n\nSince it usually takes me more than a month to read a month's worth of tales, I launched my variant on this tonight. I started on The Very Best of GW (the PS Publishing volume) with Kim Stanley Robinson's introduction (I have a feeling that many on this list could give Stan a run for his money when it comes to analysis of GW's works) and then on to \"The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\".\n\nI do not think I have read this story since I first encountered it in Orbit way back when (what an anthology series that was), as I did not remember much of the story other than the title. Edgar Rice Burroughs meets, who...Faulkner? Kerouac? Salinger?\n\nThe excerpts from the book are fun, nicely capturing Wells and Burroughs (Edgar Rice). And when the character's appear it is not artificial (if that makes sense).\n\nResisting urge to skip ahead and read the others in the sequence. Will take the book as it is presented.\n\nStan mentions candidates for a second volume. Second volume? Has that made any progress?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Mon, 3/19/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 19, 2012, 4:22 PM\n\n\n\nAre you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of Cerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a one unified piece? ?Just curious... \n\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Fifth Head has been discussed a lot, I feel I should probably treat it as one piece and perhaps tackle it after the other fiction, if at all. I will let you know ...\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "F.P. Kiesche III? \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T12:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<1332293956.71597.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I have never said anything of the sort. Please stop putting \nwords in my mouth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nApologies. You did say Christian worship was better, not that Christians\nwere better people. If so, a shame that better worship doesn't lead to\nbecoming a better person.\n \nWhich reminds me, I forgot to ask you something:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I think you well know, I was not referring to myself when I alluded to \nthe scorpion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, actually I truly thought you were referring to yourself. Who were you\nreferring to? \n \nIIRC it came in a discussion after David expressed frustration with your \ndebating tactics. I took it as an admonition to David that when he enters\na discussion with you, he should know what to expect, as the frog should\nhave known what to expect from the scorpion riding on his back.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T12:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I agree that there's no clear evidence of God's \ninteractions with other gods. But there's no clear evidence of \nmonotheism till Second Isaiah (Is. 44:6), I'm told, so it seems \nlikely that the authors of the books agreed with the characters \nthat there were other Gods, but the Israelites were supposed to \nworship just one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNice summation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Correct. Wolfe is not writing apologetics; he is \nwriting fantasy/sf in which the truth is, repeatedly and by different \ndevices, hidden, and its revelation is salvific." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, though I still think the main device Wolfe uses to reveal the \nvalidity of the Truth of Christianity is its absence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would go so far as to say that there is _less_ ickiness and cruelty in\nChristianity than in most other religions (I might except Zen Buddhism)\n-- incluiding Marxism, which is a religion screaming that it isn't. \nThe fact that we in the Western World do not take slavery, the murder\nand rape of peasants by nobles, and so on as just \"the way things are\"\nis due to the civilizing influence of Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI could cautiously agree with a few qualifications. I think you have to\nspecify \"modern\" Christianity. For most of Western history, slavery and\nother evils were tolerated within Christian societies,including by the\nclergy.\n \nAlso, there are many religions which can be considered more inherently \nbenign than Christianity; a few Asian faiths, certain native American\nbelief systems, Universal Unitarianism, etc.\n \nBut the thing is, most peaceful religions simply don't spread the way\nthe militant religions out of the Middle East do. So it might not be fair to\ncompare Christianity with Sikhism or Hopi beliefs, etc. I would agree that\nmodern Christianity is more benign than modern Islam or Judaism.\n \nI certainly agree that the real world practice of Marxism has functioned like a\nreligion for its adherents and has an inherent violence within its philosophy.\nHard to have class warfare and social upheaval without bloodshed, not to\nmention the need for draconian enforcement once Marxist principles are\nestablished. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T13:06:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332293356.48363.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably wise.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Mon, 3/19/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 19, 2012, 4:22 PM\n\n\nAre you going to include the three novelettes that make up Fifth Head of\nCerberus as instances of short stories, or just leave them to one side as a\none unified piece? Just curious...\n\n-DOJP\n\nSince Fifth Head has been discussed a lot, I feel I should probably treat\nit as one piece and perhaps tackle it after the other fiction, if at all.\nI will let you know ...\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F69D52A.5040908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-21T13:18:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/21/2012 8:56 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJerry Friedman: I agree that there's no clear evidence of God's\ninteractions with other gods. But there's no clear evidence of\nmonotheism till Second Isaiah (Is. 44:6), I'm told, so it seems\nlikely that the authors of the books agreed with the characters\nthat there were other Gods, but the Israelites were supposed to\nworship just one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice summation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always wondered what was supposed to have happened to those \"other \ngods.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Correct. Wolfe is not writing apologetics; he is\nwriting fantasy/sf in which the truth is, repeatedly and by different\ndevices, hidden, and its revelation is salvific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed, though I still think the main device Wolfe uses to reveal the\nvalidity of the Truth of Christianity is its absence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a nice observation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would go so far as to say that there is _less_ ickiness and cruelty in\nChristianity than in most other religions (I might except Zen Buddhism)\n-- incluiding Marxism, which is a religion screaming that it isn't.\nThe fact that we in the Western World do not take slavery, the murder\nand rape of peasants by nobles, and so on as just \"the way things are\"\nis due to the civilizing influence of Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could cautiously agree with a few qualifications. I think you have to\nspecify \"modern\" Christianity. For most of Western history, slavery and\nother evils were tolerated within Christian societies,including by the\nclergy.\n\nAlso, there are many religions which can be considered more inherently\nbenign than Christianity; a few Asian faiths, certain native American\nbelief systems, Universal Unitarianism, etc.\n\nBut the thing is, most peaceful religions simply don't spread the way\nthe militant religions out of the Middle East do. So it might not be fair to\ncompare Christianity with Sikhism or Hopi beliefs, etc. I would agree that\nmodern Christianity is more benign than modern Islam or Judaism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to wonder what that means. Is the religion separate from the \nsociety? What branch does one consider representative? Does theory trump \npractice?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2012-03-21T16:55:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nThe fact that we in the Western World do not take slavery, the murder\nand rape of peasants by nobles, and so on as just \"the way things are\"\nis due to the civilizing influence of Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You typed \"Christianity\" when you probably meant \"the Enlightenment\".\nCatholicism is not anti-slavery, and in some cases can be safely said to be\npro-slavery. See, for example, The Catholic Encyclopedia (\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14039a.htm):\n---\nThe fact that slavery, tempered with many humane restrictions, was\npermitted under the Mosaic law would have sufficed to prevent the\ninstitution form being condemned by Christian teachers as absolutely\nimmoral. They, following the example of St. Paul, implicitly accept slavery\nas not in itself incompatible with the Christian Law. The apostle counsels\nslaves to obey their masters, and to bear with their condition patiently.\n---\n\nJudging by his stories, Wolfe knows this teaching and accepts it. There\nare a fair number of enslaved characters and I cannot recall any of them or\nany sympathetic character disparaging the institution itself. Particular\nconditions, sure, but the fact that one person owns another is perfectly\nfine." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I just wanted all the wars to be over so that we could spend the money on\nstarships and Mars colonies.\n - Grant Morrison" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T17:14:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nYou typed \"Christianity\" when you probably meant \"the Enlightenment\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, no. I regard the so-called Enlightenment as a fundamentally\nChristian phenomenon -- admittedly in part a reaction against problems\nin the implementation of Christianity, its values were nonetheless\nfundamentally Christian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Catholicism is not anti-slavery, and in some cases can be safely said to be\npro-slavery. See, for example, The Catholic Encyclopedia" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The slavery to which Catholicism was not opposed was the Roman style\nof slavery, which was more like a form of indentured servitude. Roman\nslaves could own property and buy their own freedom, quite different\nfrom chattel slavery.\n\nBut this is the main reason I responded..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just wanted all the wars to be over so that we could spend the money on\nstarships and Mars colonies.\n? - Grant Morrison" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Supergods, right? A fine book..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6A1474.7060800@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T17:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/21/2012 12:14 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Catholicism is not anti-slavery, and in some cases can be safely said to be\npro-slavery. See, for example, The Catholic Encyclopedia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The slavery to which Catholicism was not opposed was the Roman style\nof slavery, which was more like a form of indentured servitude. Roman\nslaves could own property and buy their own freedom, quite different\nfrom chattel slavery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Weren't they still subject to arbitrary use and abuse, and sale to other \nowners without consent?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T17:52:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "<4F6A1474.7060800@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWeren't they still subject to arbitrary use and abuse, and sale to other\nowners without consent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The former, no. Roman slaves had well defined rights.\n\nThe latter ... I'm not sure about, I'd have to go back to my old\nhistory books. I suspect that the answer is yes, though." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332353589.50010.YahooMailNeo@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-21T18:13:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "<4F6A22C0.4010608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T18:49:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n\n The fact that we in the Western World do not take slavery, the murder\n and rape of peasants by nobles, and so on as just \"the way things are\"\n is due to the civilizing influence of Christianity.\n\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:\nYou typed \"Christianity\" when you probably meant \"the Enlightenment\".\n\nOn 3/21/2012 12:14 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, no. I regard the so-called Enlightenment as a fundamentally \nChristian phenomenon -- admittedly in part a reaction against \nproblems in the implementation of Christianity, its values were \nnonetheless fundamentally Christian. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether or not the Enlightenment was powered by Christian ethics and \nworld-view, I seriously doubt that the Enlightenment movement itself was \nthe primary source behind the abolition of slavery. As de Tocqueville \npointed out in \"Democracy In America\", Christian principles had \neffectively abolished the unvarnished ownership of other humans for a \nthousand years until the 1440s when Portuguese traders discovered the \nslave markets of West Africa and imported them to Europe. African slave \ntrade was like a mutated virus that is reintroduced to a population that \nhad lost the ability to resist it. It was treated as a special case. \nEven after its introduction, Europeans did not enslave each other during \nwars. European Christian ethics and world-view had abolished slavery \nbefore and it was inevitable that they would do it again unless the \ninstitution was permitted to constantly flee to new colonies of European \npowers.\n\nAdditionally, economics (not Enlightenment theory but mundane example) \nmeant this relatively new and unique version of slavery was doomed. The \nenclosed experiment of the United States was proving that slavery \nimpoverished the states that permitted it (De Toqueville offered the \ncomparison of the affluence of Ohio to the poverty of Kentucky on either \nside of the Ohio River). Unfortunately, since slavery in Europe had \nbecome confabulated with skin color, it marked whole populations as \nformer and potential slaves--as inferior by birth. And since the \nSouthern states no longer had the option of selling their slaves away \n(as England and the northern states did), ending slavery in the American \nsouth would mean the masters would have to live with their former slaves \nas equals (something that Christian charity could have addressed, but \nwhich the Christian canon itself had no specific doctrine to deal with \nit). And that's why the last bastion of slavery required a very bloody \ncivil war to be eradicated.\n\n\"When I see the order of nature overturned and hear mankind cry out and \nstruggle in vain against the law, I confess that my indignation is not \ndirected at my contemporaries, the authors of these outrages; all my \nhatred is reservered for those who, after more than a thousand years of \nequality, introduced servitude into the world once more.\" ~ De Tocqueville\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332356259.90997.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T18:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332301998.26762.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure Craig. Right now I am fancying something chronological, with Bibliomen as a whole that might be put off until later. \n\nSo something like this, with Bibliomen entries and Fifth Head displaced a bit.\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.StoriesListByDate\n\nsome are uncollected and some are online. \n\n--- On Tue, 3/20/12, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332357254.67398.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T19:14:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<770512.5631.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure thing Mo. From my own perspective, grab whatever you think is useful or post it wholesale if I wrote it. Consider this a blanket permission for anything I wrote, past or future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/20/12, Mo Holkar wrote:\nFrom: Mo Holkar \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 7:16 AM\nAt 13:03 20/03/2012, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Marc\nAramini\nI will start with the earliest chronological\nstories of Gene and proceed with\nthe most basic of summaries, my impressions if I\nhave any that I think are\nworthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements\nthat I found confusing\nor would like to re-examine after I have read\nthrough the story twice with\nnotes. I will be on the look out for\nrepetitive patterns of occurence or words\nthat are used with mysterious misplaced\nconnotation. this would be for the\nshort stories.\n\nInteresting. the WolfeWiki seems to attempt\nsomething like this, but the notes and questions are rather\nsparse for a lot of stories.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, WolfeWiki contributors have worked enthusiastically\nover a selection of stories, but it's very patchy. I'm\nhoping that Marc and those who discuss indivdual stories\nwith him on here will be kind enough to let some of their\nforthcoming thoughts be reflected on the wiki (with\nappropriate credit of course).\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2012-03-21T20:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You typed \"Christianity\" when you probably meant \"the Enlightenment\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, no. I regard the so-called Enlightenment as a fundamentally\nChristian phenomenon -- admittedly in part a reaction against problems\nin the implementation of Christianity, its values were nonetheless\nfundamentally Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had never heard that idea before. I don't agree, but I see your point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Catholicism is not anti-slavery, and in some cases can be safely said to\nbe\npro-slavery. See, for example, The Catholic Encyclopedia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The slavery to which Catholicism was not opposed was the Roman style\nof slavery, which was more like a form of indentured servitude. Roman\nslaves could own property and buy their own freedom, quite different\nfrom chattel slavery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Catholic Encyclopedia (I included the URL) actual condemns the Roman\npractice, while detailing the \"superior\" Jewish version." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is the main reason I responded..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just wanted all the wars to be over so that we could spend the money on\nstarships and Mars colonies.\n - Grant Morrison" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Supergods, right? A fine book..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup. Had never read a really good defense of Superman before. Read it\nalong with \"Our Gods Wear Spandex\". Both good books for anyone interested\nin how \"low\" culture handles spiritual issues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": ">\n\nI just wanted all the wars to be over so that we could spend the money on\nstarships and Mars colonies.\n - Grant Morrison" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-21T20:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nThe slavery to which Catholicism was not opposed was the Roman style\nof slavery, which was more like a form of indentured servitude. Roman\nslaves could own property and buy their own freedom, quite different\nfrom chattel slavery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Catholic Encyclopedia (I included the URL) actual condemns the Roman\npractice, while detailing the \"superior\" Jewish version." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, at least you know I was writing for myself and not official\nCatholic agitprop... ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Supergods, right? A fine book..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yup. Had never read a really good defense of Superman before. Read it\nalong with \"Our Gods Wear Spandex\". Both good books for anyone\ninterested in how \"low\" culture handles spiritual issues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hadn't heard of the other book. Now I'm going to have to get hold of a copy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<611430.84188.qm@smtp817.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2012-03-21T21:22:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) summer project idea", "in_reply_to": "<1332357254.67398.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 19:14 21/03/2012, Marc wrote:\nSure thing Mo. From my own perspective, grab whatever you think is \nuseful or post it wholesale if I wrote it. Consider this a blanket \npermission for anything I wrote, past or future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Marc, that's very generous!\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/20/12, Mo Holkar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Mo Holkar \nSubject: Re: (urth) summer project idea\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 7:16 AM\nAt 13:03 20/03/2012, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Marc\nAramini\nI will start with the earliest chronological\nstories of Gene and proceed with\nthe most basic of summaries, my impressions if I\nhave any that I think are\nworthwhile, and then perhaps a series of elements\nthat I found confusing\nor would like to re-examine after I have read\nthrough the story twice with\nnotes. I will be on the look out for\nrepetitive patterns of occurence or words\nthat are used with mysterious misplaced\nconnotation. this would be for the\nshort stories.\n\nInteresting. the WolfeWiki seems to attempt\nsomething like this, but the notes and questions are rather\nsparse for a lot of stories.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, WolfeWiki contributors have worked enthusiastically\nover a selection of stories, but it's very patchy. I'm\nhoping that Marc and those who discuss indivdual stories\nwith him on here will be kind enough to let some of their\nforthcoming thoughts be reflected on the wiki (with\nappropriate credit of course).\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6A931E.9040701@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-22T02:49:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F68EA17.9050404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Larger views of some of the gorgeous rooms seen over the shoulders of \nthe participants, and detail on the upright organ:\n\nhttp://www.wurlitzer2003.com/victorian_palace.htm\n\n\nnews story/video tour with lots of musical machiner and a shot of the \nbalcony about 5:45:\n\nhttp://www.placedelamusique.org/\n\nadditional links up the side here." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6A94E7.6080004@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-22T02:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Oannes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/21/2012 12:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Weren't they still subject to arbitrary use and abuse, and sale to other\nowners without consent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The former, no. Roman slaves had well defined rights." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The rights to keep their religion didn't seem to prevent them from being \nprostituted or used in blood sports or worked to death in mines, though. \nNot much of chance to pick up enough tips to buy your freedom in the \nmines, either." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F6B4F13.8010305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-22T16:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chicago event", "in_reply_to": "<4F6A931E.9040701@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Marc, and James, and the others, for your accounts. It surely was \nmemorable! In hindsight I should have asked you to tell Gene he has a number \nof fans in non-english speaking countries too (it may take a PhD in English \nLiterature and a monstrous knowledge of pulp to more fully understand his \nwork, but us from other cultures can find much richness in it too). Oh well..." } ] } ] }