# The Perils of Partnership *The Urth list — 15 messages, 5 voices, 22 Mar 2012* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Fred Kiesche *22 Mar 2012, 15:35* Greetings: Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. Am I a cranky book collector or what? ``` F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children ( http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). ``` --- ### Fred Kiesche *22 Mar 2012, 15:38 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* Following up: If anybody would like one of these (as I get my actual real live NEW copies that are NEW), let me know. Or two. Or all three. First come, first served. > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: > Greetings: > > Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: > Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short > story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is Gene > Wolfe Shorts Month project. > > Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did > not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are all > fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book with > stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual "new" copy > without any of that, I'll choose the new one. > > Am I a cranky book collector or what? > > -- > F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. > Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on > being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) > Blogging at The Lensman's Children ( > http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### António Pedro Marques *22 Mar 2012, 16:01 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* These days I only get 'used' stuff from the amazon marketplace if 'new' isn't available or the price just doesn't allow - good luck finding a new hardcover of http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Apocrypha-Vol-Apocalypses/dp/0664218792 ! As a rule I don't buy from amazon itself. I hate amazon. Amazon bought Stanza only so it could terminate it and then released an iOS5 update which doesn't work on iOS4 but is pushed to iOS4 devices anyway*. All to eliminate competition for the Kindle, and how come Kindle for iOS today is still far behind 2008's Stanza where it comes to usefulness. (*) If you still have your binary of the previous Stanza in your hard drive then you can easily undo the 'upgrade' with iFunBox, but you'll have to take care not to allow it to be 'upgraded' again, which is a chore. The IPA has to be yours or the device jailbroken, otherwise no luck. My first Gene Wolfe book was 'used', and how. I almost got afraid of getting some disease from it. Once I'd finished it, I bought a new one. Sometimes I stay at small camping parks or the like and leave such duplicates there in the community library. Fred Kiesche wrote (22-03-2012 15:38): > Following up: If anybody would like one of these (as I get my actual real > live NEW copies that are NEW), let me know. Or two. Or all three. First > come, first served. > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Fred Kiesche > wrote: > > Greetings: > Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: > Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short > story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is > Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. > Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did > not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are > all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book > with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual > "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. > Am I a cranky book collector or what? > > -- > F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. > Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on > being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman > Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children > (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### António Pedro Marques *22 Mar 2012, 16:06 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* Oh, but what I wanted to say, before I got carried on with the anti-amazon rant, was that in my experience - a reasonably thorough one - vendors are usually very honest in their presentation of items and conditions. At amazon or anywhere else, you should always check the vendor's rating (which however only gains significance with the number of reviews). You should also leave feedback on the order, saying exactly what you told us, that the library markings should have been mentioned (every other offer mentions them, so it's not ignorance on the vendor's part). Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote (22-03-2012 16:01): > These days I only get 'used' stuff from the amazon marketplace if 'new' > isn't available or the price just doesn't allow - good luck finding a new > hardcover of > http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Apocrypha-Vol-Apocalypses/dp/0664218792 > ! As a rule I don't buy from amazon itself. I hate amazon. Amazon bought > Stanza only so it could terminate it and then released an iOS5 update which > doesn't work on iOS4 but is pushed to iOS4 devices anyway*. All to eliminate > competition for the Kindle, and how come Kindle for iOS today is still far > behind 2008's Stanza where it comes to usefulness. > > (*) If you still have your binary of the previous Stanza in your hard drive > then you can easily undo the 'upgrade' with iFunBox, but you'll have to take > care not to allow it to be 'upgraded' again, which is a chore. The IPA has > to be yours or the device jailbroken, otherwise no luck. > > My first Gene Wolfe book was 'used', and how. I almost got afraid of getting > some disease from it. Once I'd finished it, I bought a new one. Sometimes I > stay at small camping parks or the like and leave such duplicates there in > the community library. > > Fred Kiesche wrote (22-03-2012 15:38): >> Following up: If anybody would like one of these (as I get my actual real >> live NEW copies that are NEW), let me know. Or two. Or all three. First >> come, first served. >> >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Fred Kiesche > > wrote: >> >> Greetings: >> Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: >> Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short >> story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is >> Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. >> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did >> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are >> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book >> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual >> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >> >> -- >> F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. >> Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on >> being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman >> Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children >> (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *22 Mar 2012, 16:18 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* > On 3/22/2012 10:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: > Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did > not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are > all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book > with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual > "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. > Am I a cranky book collector or what? Were they sold as new, or "as good as new" condition? If you bought books listed under the "used" tab, you could do a lot worse. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Matthew Weber *22 Mar 2012, 16:22 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* > Greetings: >>> Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: >>> Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short >>> story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is >>> Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. >>> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did >>> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are >>> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book >>> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual >>> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >>> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >>> >>> -- >>> F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. >>> Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on >>> being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman >>> Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children >>> (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.**blogspot.com/ >>> ). Fred, there are Amazon Marketplace vendors that pull this crap all the time--listing books in "good" or "very good" condition when they've been defaced with library stamps, written in, etc. I suggest being a complete pain in the ass and giving the seller a "poor" rating (and giving specific reasons why the seller earned that rating). Quite often the seller will contact you and ask that you revise the rating, which you should only do on condition that they pay for return postage and a refund. On the one hand, it's good that Amazon Marketplace has allowed all kinds of booksellers to piggyback on Amazon's infrastructure and keep their businesses going. The downside is that any schmuck with a stack of withdrawn library books can go online and sell them, and in so doing muddy the waters for experienced bookmen who know their trade and are trying to do a conscientious job of describing what they're selling. I've been where you are several times, and it's extremely annoying. ``` Matt + Give a sop to Cerberus. Greek and Roman saying ``` --- ### Matthew Weber *22 Mar 2012, 16:23 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 3/22/2012 10:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: >> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did >> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are >> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book >> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual >> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >> Am I a cranky book collector or what? > Were they sold as new, or "as good as new" condition? If you bought books > listed under the "used" tab, you could do a lot worse. Jeff, a book sold in "good" or higher condition should not be defaced. A book with stamps, labels, and pasted-in card holders is "fair" condition at best. ``` Matt + Give a sop to Cerberus. Greek and Roman saying ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *22 Mar 2012, 16:35 · in reply to Matthew Weber* > On 3/22/2012 11:23 AM, Matthew Weber wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote: > > On 3/22/2012 10:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: > > Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon > "partner" did > not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and > these are > all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a > ex-library book > with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a > actual > "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. > Am I a cranky book collector or what? > > > Were they sold as new, or "as good as new" condition? If you bought > books listed under the "used" tab, you could do a lot worse. > > Jeff, a book sold in "good" or higher condition should not be defaced. > A book with stamps, labels, and pasted-in card holders is "fair" > condition at best. If it's sold as a collectable, sure. As used retail merchandise, the standards are lower. I admit the lines are blurred somewhat by the market's barriers to entry being lowered to the point where it's gainful to deal in single used items online. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0062IGP0S/sr=/qid=/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&coliid=&me=&qid=&sr=&seller=&colid=&condition=used Was it under the "collectible" or the "used" tab, Fred? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Matthew Weber *22 Mar 2012, 16:44 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 3/22/2012 11:23 AM, Matthew Weber wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Jeff Wilson > > wrote: >> >> On 3/22/2012 10:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: >> >> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon >> "partner" did >> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and >> these are >> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a >> ex-library book >> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a >> actual >> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >> >> >> Were they sold as new, or "as good as new" condition? If you bought >> books listed under the "used" tab, you could do a lot worse. >> >> Jeff, a book sold in "good" or higher condition should not be defaced. >> A book with stamps, labels, and pasted-in card holders is "fair" >> condition at best. > If it's sold as a collectable, sure. As used retail merchandise, the > standards are lower. I admit the lines are blurred somewhat by the market's > barriers to entry being lowered to the point where it's gainful to deal in > single used items online. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/**offer-listing/B0062IGP0S/sr=/** > qid=/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&**coliid=&me=&qid=&sr=&seller=&** > colid=&condition=used > > Was it under the "collectible" or the "used" tab, Fred? Whether collectible or used doesn't really matter, I think. Under IOBA standards, anything that's ex-library *must* be flagged as such : http://www.ioba.org/pages/resources/condition-definitions/ ``` Matt + Give a sop to Cerberus. Greek and Roman saying ``` --- ### Fred Kiesche *22 Mar 2012, 16:44 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* Rating was 100%. They shipped it quickly. They are in good shape. Just not the shape that I was expecting. Sometimes a lack of description is misleading. 2012/3/22 Ant?nio Pedro Marques > Oh, but what I wanted to say, before I got carried on with the anti-amazon > rant, was that in my experience - a reasonably thorough one - vendors are > usually very honest in their presentation of items and conditions. At > amazon or anywhere else, you should always check the vendor's rating (which > however only gains significance with the number of reviews). > You should also leave feedback on the order, saying exactly what you told > us, that the library markings should have been mentioned (every other offer > mentions them, so it's not ignorance on the vendor's part). > > Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote (22-03-2012 16:01): > > These days I only get 'used' stuff from the amazon marketplace if 'new' >> isn't available or the price just doesn't allow - good luck finding a new >> hardcover of >> http://www.amazon.com/New-**Testament-Apocrypha-Vol-** >> Apocalypses/dp/0664218792 >> ! As a rule I don't buy from amazon itself. I hate amazon. Amazon bought >> Stanza only so it could terminate it and then released an iOS5 update >> which >> doesn't work on iOS4 but is pushed to iOS4 devices anyway*. All to >> eliminate >> competition for the Kindle, and how come Kindle for iOS today is still far >> behind 2008's Stanza where it comes to usefulness. >> >> (*) If you still have your binary of the previous Stanza in your hard >> drive >> then you can easily undo the 'upgrade' with iFunBox, but you'll have to >> take >> care not to allow it to be 'upgraded' again, which is a chore. The IPA has >> to be yours or the device jailbroken, otherwise no luck. >> >> My first Gene Wolfe book was 'used', and how. I almost got afraid of >> getting >> some disease from it. Once I'd finished it, I bought a new one. Sometimes >> I >> stay at small camping parks or the like and leave such duplicates there in >> the community library. >> >> Fred Kiesche wrote (22-03-2012 15:38): >>> Following up: If anybody would like one of these (as I get my actual real >>> live NEW copies that are NEW), let me know. Or two. Or all three. First >>> come, first served. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Fred Kiesche < >>> godelescherbach at gmail.com >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings: >>> Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: >>> Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short >>> story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is >>> Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. >>> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did >>> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are >>> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book >>> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual >>> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >>> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >>> >>> -- >>> F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. >>> Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on >>> being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman >>> Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children >>> (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.**blogspot.com/ >>> ). >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Fred Kiesche *22 Mar 2012, 16:47 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* It was under USED, but when it is ex-library, it is **usuually** marked as such, in my prior experience. I've bought ex-library before--when I can't get used (or various descriptions) or new. So I just went through again, under used again, and purchased from several vendors who actually specifically said "like new" or "gently used and unmarked", etc., and had ratings of 99% or 100%. > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 3/22/2012 11:23 AM, Matthew Weber wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Jeff Wilson > > wrote: >> >> On 3/22/2012 10:35 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote: >> >> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon >> "partner" did >> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and >> these are >> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a >> ex-library book >> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a >> actual >> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >> >> >> Were they sold as new, or "as good as new" condition? If you bought >> books listed under the "used" tab, you could do a lot worse. >> >> Jeff, a book sold in "good" or higher condition should not be defaced. >> A book with stamps, labels, and pasted-in card holders is "fair" >> condition at best. > If it's sold as a collectable, sure. As used retail merchandise, the > standards are lower. I admit the lines are blurred somewhat by the market's > barriers to entry being lowered to the point where it's gainful to deal in > single used items online. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/**offer-listing/B0062IGP0S/sr=/** > qid=/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&**coliid=&me=&qid=&sr=&seller=&** > colid=&condition=used > > Was it under the "collectible" or the "used" tab, Fred? > > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com > Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana > < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > > ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Fred Kiesche *22 Mar 2012, 16:48 · in reply to Matthew Weber* In other news: If anybody is looking for "reading quality" copies of these three (one, two, or all three), please let me know. As soon as I get my other copies, I'll be happy to give them to somebody who does not already own. > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Matthew Weber wrote: > > Greetings: >>>> Just got my first three replacement copies of my missing Wolfe's: >>>> Innocents Abroad, Starwater Strains, and Strange Travellers--all short >>>> story collections in case any of the titles in these are on the May Is >>>> Gene Wolfe Shorts Month project. >>>> Annoyed as they are all ex-library books: which the Amazon "partner" did >>>> not mention in his/her description. I did not pay a lot, and these are >>>> all fine "reading copies", but given a choice between a ex-library book >>>> with stickers, mylar wrap and stamps and things inside...and a actual >>>> "new" copy without any of that, I'll choose the new one. >>>> Am I a cranky book collector or what? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. >>>> Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on >>>> being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman >>>> Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children >>>> (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.**blogspot.com/ >>>> ). > Fred, there are Amazon Marketplace vendors that pull this crap all the > time--listing books in "good" or "very good" condition when they've been > defaced with library stamps, written in, etc. I suggest being a complete > pain in the ass and giving the seller a "poor" rating (and giving specific > reasons why the seller earned that rating). Quite often the seller will > contact you and ask that you revise the rating, which you should only do on > condition that they pay for return postage and a refund. > > On the one hand, it's good that Amazon Marketplace has allowed all kinds > of booksellers to piggyback on Amazon's infrastructure and keep their > businesses going. The downside is that any schmuck with a stack of > withdrawn library books can go online and sell them, and in so doing muddy > the waters for experienced bookmen who know their trade and are trying to > do a conscientious job of describing what they're selling. I've been where > you are several times, and it's extremely annoying. > > > > -- > Matt + > > Give a sop to Cerberus. > Greek and Roman saying > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Gwern Branwen *22 Mar 2012, 17:10 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* 2012/3/22 Ant?nio Pedro Marques : > At amazon or anywhere else, you should always check the vendor's rating > (which however only gains significance with the number of reviews). Always an interesting statistical topic: http://andrewgelman.com/2007/03/bayesian_sortin/ ``` gwern http://www.gwern.net ``` --- ### António Pedro Marques *22 Mar 2012, 17:17 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* Rede, rede! Gwern Branwen wrote (22-03-2012 17:10): > 2012/3/22 Ant?nio Pedro Marques: >> At amazon or anywhere else, you should always check the vendor's rating >> (which however only gains significance with the number of reviews). > Always an interesting statistical topic: > http://andrewgelman.com/2007/03/bayesian_sortin/ --- ### Jeff Wilson *22 Mar 2012, 18:24 · in reply to Matthew Weber* > On 3/22/2012 11:44 AM, Matthew Weber wrote: > Whether collectible or used doesn't really matter, I think. Under IOBA > standards, anything that's ex-library *must* be flagged as such : > http://www.ioba.org/pages/resources/condition-definitions/ Was the the IOBA visibly a party to the listing? I've been buying used books on Amazon for years and this is the first I've heard of them. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` ---