{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6202", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6202, "subject": "Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2012-03-25T18:05:10+00:00", "last": "2012-03-31T02:40:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1332698710.78702.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-25T18:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Dead Man\n\nThis was first published in 1965 in Sir!, and while thematically it is similar to the 1951 work of Wolfe, especially “The Grave Secret”, the prose is far more precise and articulate. Gene’s progress, of all the truly great writers, seems more “made” that born. \n\nSUMMARY: Taking place in a Hindi river setting, for the first time in generations the river seems unsafe. The main character’s sister-in-law has been taken by a Magar (crocodile, but Urdu/Hindi for “water monster”) 9 days previously. His wife has been bitten on the foot by a jackal and it has reacted badly when she tried to distract it away from her young son, so her husband, called the peasant, must perform the womanly task of getting water from the river since his own mother is too old.\n\nHe rises early, but there is an old Brahman already on the step sitting outside his door, who has cast Marigold wreaths into the river to placate the Magar and other river spirits. The man retrieves the first jug and returns to his hut where his wife moans and stirs before he goes back with his second, chipped jug for more water. He grows careless, and his foot slips. As a result, the Magar snatches him by the leg and he passively accepts his fate. He awakens in the lair of the crocodile, next to a blackbuck and a woman whose body seems familiar. He escapes through the “chimney” of the lair and makes his way back to his family (the limp is implied from the injury to his leg during the croc attack). He stands before his house and looks first and last at his wife. \n\nThe Brahman is seated inside his house and says, “Do not address it. It is seldom good to hear what they will say” before casting saffron powder from a brass bowl into the air to bring the dead peasant release.\n\nCOMMENTARY: Once again we have a dead man unaware of his condition. However, we must address the moment when he returns to awareness after the attack. “When next he came to know our world — maya, that which is not God — it was a small circle of pale blue far above his eyes.” In hinduism, Maya is like an illusion. Along with matter and activity it creates a trifecta through which man “exists”, but he experiences matter and activity through Maya. Thus dualism is taken to an extreme degree — the real world as an illusion, that which is separate from the reality of the divine. Maya is also somehow linked to the act or actors involved in the creation of the physical world.\n\nThe Brahmin is someone who has come to experience knowledge of the self, BUT it is a bit suspicious that he is sitting there waiting outside the man’s door when he leaves, then is not present the first time the man returns — but the wife moans and stirs in her bed. Since the description is of a very old man I will not posit that the Brahmin had a vested interest in the wife. \n\nHowever, the peasant’s half-brother’s wife, which is probably the corpse rotting in the den of the crocodile, also evokes the feeling “A drugged and whirling concourse of surmises rushed through his mind, until simultaneously an without consciousness of contradiction he felt that he lay in the palace of a scaled river-spirit and asleep beside his wife.”\nThe crocodile has teeth that are ill suited to eating the man, so it has to wait for food to get appropriately soft and rotten to consume it, in its little cooking den with a chimney to prevent the noxious rotting gasses to poison the den. The man escapes through this.\n\nPOSSIBLE AMBIGUITIES: Is the Magar there for judgment? Why has the river been safe for so long? Was the man having an affair with his half-brother’s wife — is that why they both shared the river-spirit’s attention? Was the Brahmin innocent or complicit, being there before the man left and then present at his final return to dissolve his consciousness, but not there upon his first return, when he heard the moan of his wife? Also, is the woman that he recognizes his sister in law? It would seem to be, but has she rotted enough for 9 days? It does not seem to be another fresh victim that he “knows”. \n\nALLUSIONS: Besides Weird Tales, we have Kipling and The Jungle Book here! The crocodile is called by Magar just as Baloo is a bear. Hindi religious systems seem to be treated seriously, especially that separation of real world as illusion from the actual reality of the divine — the Dead Man has unknowingly fallen between those two.\n\nRELIGIOUS CONNOTATION: We should look at The Brahman as someone who is aware of his own spiritual state and maya as that which is separate from God; interesting concepts, because the main character, like many of Wolfe’s, is able to accept his fate but not understand it (so he is not very \"Brahman\").\n\nAlso, there is a subtle difference between Brahmin and Brahman, and Wolfe usually employs the \"a\" spelling.\n\nFUTURE ECHOES: As Gerry said of “The Grave Secret”, it seems clear that “The Other Dead Man” will be related to this, and I would also liken it to the stories where indigenous myths are given power and treated seriously (even the Latro books would fall into this category — Egyptian gods in Egypt, Greek gods in Greece, etc). The idea of Maya as an illusory real world seems to permeate Gene’s work, though I would normally ascribe it to “Gnosticism”.\n\nAlso, we have ANOTHER leg injury, and besides a possibly broken vertibral column, the most obvious source of discomfort to the peasant when he \"awakens\". This wound was given at the time of translation between life and death, or between maya and that which is beyond illusion.\n\nThe next one will be \"Mountains like Mice\" - I need a day or two to get that one prepared." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332742581.57391.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-26T06:16:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1332698710.78702.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicely done on this one. And you're absolutely right about the prose. 14 years makes quite a difference!\n\nJust a few things. The Brahmin is described in the beginning as *outside* the house and emaciated from fasting. It's a huge contrast to the bloated bodies *inside* the magar's den waiting to be eaten. That comes back to the relationship with \"maya\" he's playing with, I think. Also, when he's describing how he can see when he wakes up, he mentions that he can \"examine the edges [of his vision], where the ghosts of the newly dead and the more material demons flutter away from man's view.\" Materiality here is associated with the demons, with the magar, with eating and putrefaction, etc. Even sex is mixed up with that in the way he eyes the other woman's dead but still nicely curvy (from necrotic gasses? shudder) body. And he has that moment where he feels that he's in the magar's den *and* lying in bed at home beside his wife -- he says he feels this \"without contradiction,\" and it further emphasizes that here, it's not just \"bad spirits\" that are\n un-divine, but everything \"worldly.\" Even the ghost \"limps\" in that between world, so he's affected by \"physical\" injuries even though he's immaterial. And all of the strength and health that the peasant has only serves to let him scream loudly before he dies.\n\n\nSo I'm not so sure that there's much judgment here for being a good or bad man in life. To me it seems more like Wolfe is playing with the notion of maya as illusion full on: everything about life, from happy supportive marriage to the magar \"demon\" is equally low and illusory. The passivity in death (a death in the water and the submission to drowning...where have we seen that before?) is something that the narrator quips could be cultural, but it's actually the right thing for this guy to do in that \"gnostic\" system. It's his not having fully let go that leads to the Brahman having to intervene and cast a spell (or whatever) to free him. The Brahman even suggests that anything he says (or thinks) must be wrong (\"It is seldom good to hear what they [ghosts] say.\"), and the \"Name, dissolution, and release\" are good things.\n\nSo maybe the magar has returned because they are too much \"in the world\"? After all, the grandmother laments that people are going to die, rather than accepting illusion like the Brahman. There's also that weird comment that the peasant and his friends, \"ignorant of the comparative religion of the schools, would have killed the magar if they could.\" So it sounds like killing the magar isn't the right response to his return. The Brahman is trying to \"propitiate\" him at the beginning, which is more like acceptance than driving him away.\n\nThere is the comment about the jungle having been cut down for lumber 50 years ago and now growing back. That might be something different.\n\n\n\n________________________________\n From: Marc Aramini \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:05 PM\nSubject: (urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man\n \nThe Dead Man\n\nThis was first published in 1965 in Sir!, and while thematically it is similar to the 1951 work of Wolfe, especially “The Grave Secret”, the prose is far more precise and articulate. Gene’s progress, of all the truly great writers, seems more “made” that born. \n\nSUMMARY: Taking place in a Hindi river setting, for the first time in generations the river seems unsafe. The main character’s sister-in-law has been taken by a Magar (crocodile, but Urdu/Hindi for “water monster”) 9 days previously. His wife has been bitten on the foot by a jackal and it has reacted badly when she tried to distract it away from her young son, so her husband, called the peasant, must perform the womanly task of getting water from the river since his own mother is too old.\n\nHe rises early, but there is an old Brahman already on the step sitting outside his door, who has cast Marigold wreaths into the river to placate the Magar and other river spirits. The man retrieves the first jug and returns to his hut where his wife moans and stirs before he goes back with his second, chipped jug for more water. He grows careless, and his foot slips. As a result, the Magar snatches him by the leg and he passively accepts his fate. He awakens in the lair of the crocodile, next to a blackbuck and a woman whose body seems familiar. He escapes through the “chimney” of the lair and makes his way back to his family (the limp is implied from the injury to his leg during the croc attack). He stands before his house and looks first and last at his wife. \n\nThe Brahman is seated inside his house and says, “Do not address it.” It is seldom good to hear what they will say? before casting saffron powder from a brass bowl into the air to bring the dead peasant release.\n\nCOMMENTARY: Once again we have a dead man unaware of his condition. However, we must address the moment when he returns to awareness after the attack. “When next he came to know our world — maya, that which is not God — it was a small circle of pale blue far above his eyes.” In hinduism, Maya is like an illusion. Along with matter and activity it creates a trifecta through which man “exists”, but he experiences matter and activity through Maya. Thus dualism is taken to an extreme degree — the real world as an illusion, that which is separate from the reality of the divine. Maya is also somehow linked to the act or actors involved in the creation of the physical world.\n\nThe Brahmin is someone who has come to experience knowledge of the self, BUT it is a bit suspicious that he is sitting there waiting outside the man’s door when he leaves, then is not present the first time the man returns — but the wife moans and stirs in her bed. Since the description is of a very old man I will not posit that the Brahmin had a vested interest in the wife. \n\nHowever, the peasant’s half-brother’s wife, which is probably the corpse rotting in the den of the crocodile, also evokes the feeling “A drugged and whirling concourse of surmises rushed through his mind, until simultaneously an without consciousness of contradiction he felt that he lay in the palace of a scaled river-spirit and asleep beside his wife.”\nThe crocodile has teeth that are ill suited to eating the man, so it has to wait for food to get appropriately soft and rotten to consume it, in its little cooking den with a chimney to prevent the noxious rotting gasses to poison the den. The man escapes through this.\n\nPOSSIBLE AMBIGUITIES: Is the Magar there for judgment? Why has the river been safe for so long? Was the man having an affair with his half-brother’s wife — is that why they both shared the river-spirit’s attention? Was the Brahmin innocent or complicit, being there before the man left and then present at his final return to dissolve his consciousness, but not there upon his first return, when he heard the moan of his wife? Also, is the woman that he recognizes his sister in law? It would seem to be, but has she rotted enough for 9 days? It does not seem to be another fresh victim that he “knows”. \n\nALLUSIONS: Besides Weird Tales, we have Kipling and The Jungle Book here!? The crocodile is called by Magar just as Baloo is a bear. Hindi religious systems seem to be treated seriously, especially that separation of real world as illusion from the actual reality of the divine — the Dead Man has unknowingly fallen between those two.\n\nRELIGIOUS CONNOTATION: We should look at The Brahman as someone who is aware of his own spiritual state and maya as that which is separate from God; interesting concepts, because the main character, like many of Wolfe’s, is able to accept his fate but not understand it (so he is not very \"Brahman\").\n\nAlso, there is a subtle difference between Brahmin and Brahman, and Wolfe usually employs the \"a\" spelling.\n\nFUTURE ECHOES: As Gerry said of “The Grave Secret”, it seems clear that “The Other Dead Man” will be related to this, and I would also liken it to the stories where indigenous myths are given power and treated seriously (even the Latro books would fall into this category — Egyptian gods in Egypt, Greek gods in Greece, etc). The idea of Maya as an illusory real world seems to permeate Gene’s work, though I would normally ascribe it to “Gnosticism”.\n\nAlso, we have ANOTHER leg injury, and besides a possibly broken vertibral column, the most obvious source of discomfort to the peasant when he \"awakens\". This wound was given at the time of translation between life and death, or between maya and that which is beyond illusion.\n\nThe next one will be \"Mountains like Mice\" - I need a day or two to get that one prepared." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332862659.96140.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-27T15:37:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1332742581.57391.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 3/25/12, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \n\n\n\n\n\nJust a few things. The Brahmin is described in the beginning as *outside* the house and emaciated from fasting. It's a huge contrast to the bloated bodies *inside* the magar's den waiting to be eaten. That comes back to the relationship with \"maya\" he's playing with, I think. Also, when he's describing how he can see when he wakes up, he mentions that he can \"examine the edges [of his vision], where the ghosts of the newly dead and the more material demons flutter away from man's view.\" Materiality here is associated with the demons, with the magar, with eating and putrefaction, etc. Even sex is mixed up with that in the way he eyes the other woman's dead but still nicely curvy (from necrotic gasses? shudder) body. And he has that moment where he feels that he's in the magar's den *and* lying in bed at home beside his wife -- he says he feels this \"without contradiction,\" and it further emphasizes that here, it's not just \"bad spirits\" that are\n un-divine, but everything \"worldly.\" Even the ghost \"limps\" in that between world, so he's affected by \"physical\" injuries even though he's immaterial. And all of the strength and health that the peasant has only serves to let him scream loudly before he dies.\n\n\n\nSo I'm not so sure that there's much judgment here for being a good or bad man in life. To me it seems more like Wolfe is playing with the notion of maya as illusion full on: everything about life, from happy supportive marriage to the magar \"demon\" is equally low and illusory. The passivity in death (a death in the water and the submission to drowning...where have we seen that before?) is something that the narrator quips could be cultural, but it's actually the right thing for this guy to do in that \"gnostic\" system. It's his not having fully let go that leads to the Brahman having to intervene and cast a spell (or whatever) to free him. The Brahman even suggests that anything he says (or thinks) must be wrong (\"It is seldom good to hear what they [ghosts] say.\"), and the \"Name, dissolution, and release\" are good things.\n\n\nSo maybe the magar has returned because they are too much \"in the world\"? After all, the grandmother laments that people are going to die, rather than accepting illusion like the Brahman. There's also that weird comment that the peasant and his friends, \"ignorant of the comparative religion of the schools, would have killed the magar if they could.\" So it sounds like killing the magar isn't the right response to his return. The Brahman is trying to \"propitiate\" him at the beginning, which is more like acceptance than driving him away.\n\n\nThere is the comment about the jungle having been cut down for lumber 50 years ago and now growing back. That might be something different.\n\n\n\n\n\n\nVery nice comments, I was hoping someone else would weigh in on the idea of \"right/wrong\" response to the Magar and materialistic reality - sexual swelling through necrotic gases is an awesome image. This story is a perfect example of why I think spiritual possibilities always have to be considered in Wolfe to make accurate interpretations.\n\nI guess I will press forward - I think that even though two of the stories in \"Young Wolfe\" were not published until 1992 in that volume, they seem like very early works, so we will talk about them before going to the Tor anthologies. The Dead Man, Mountains Like Mice, and The Green Wall Said are definitely the highlights - Mountains like Mice is far and away the longest, so I should be able to finish up my scans of Young Wolfe tonight, get those out, and start posting some of those comments. \n\nThen it looks like Trip, Trap - the story from which Damon Knight grew Wolfe from a bean. That story will probably slow us down a little, but that's all right." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F750CA1.3010305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-30T01:30:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1332742581.57391.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only add to this that the depth of research needed for this little \nOMG-I'm-the-ghost ghost story is remarkable. It's not /entirely \n/convincing, because of the little Orientalist \"footnotes,\" but the \nsheer legwork to get us into the peasant's mind---banter of women, \njungle species succession, the croc's chimney, if true (I can't confirm \nit)---is commendable.\n\nIncidentally, the croc is known as the \"mugger\" crocodile and does lie \nin wait for prey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugger_crocodile). \nHowever, the manner in which it actually killed the peasant sounds more \nlike the \"death roll\" described for the saltwater croc \n(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_crocodile). One would need to \ndelve deeper than Wikipedia to sort it out further, but the conflation \nworks, if conflation it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/26/2012 2:16 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nNicely done on this one. And you're absolutely right about the prose. \n14 years makes quite a difference!\n\nJust a few things. The Brahmin is described in the beginning as \n*outside* the house and emaciated from fasting. It's a huge contrast \nto the bloated bodies *inside* the magar's den waiting to be eaten. \nThat comes back to the relationship with \"maya\" he's playing with, I \nthink. Also, when he's describing how he can see when he wakes up, he \nmentions that he can \"examine the edges [of his vision], where the \nghosts of the newly dead and the more material demons flutter away \nfrom man's view.\" Materiality here is associated with the demons, with \nthe magar, with eating and putrefaction, etc. Even sex is mixed up \nwith that in the way he eyes the other woman's dead but still nicely \ncurvy (from necrotic gasses? shudder) body. And he has that moment \nwhere he feels that he's in the magar's den *and* lying in bed at home \nbeside his wife -- he says he feels this \"without contradiction,\" and \nit further emphasizes that here, it's not just \"bad spirits\" that are \nun-divine, but everything \"worldly.\" Even the ghost \"limps\" in that \nbetween world, so he's affected by \"physical\" injuries even though \nhe's immaterial. And all of the strength and health that the peasant \nhas only serves to let him scream loudly before he dies.\n\nSo I'm not so sure that there's much judgment here for being a good or \nbad man in life. To me it seems more like Wolfe is playing with the \nnotion of maya as illusion full on: everything about life, from happy \nsupportive marriage to the magar \"demon\" is equally low and illusory. \nThe passivity in death (a death in the water and the submission to \ndrowning...where have we seen that before?) is something that the \nnarrator quips could be cultural, but it's actually the right thing \nfor this guy to do in that \"gnostic\" system. It's his not having fully \nlet go that leads to the Brahman having to intervene and cast a spell \n(or whatever) to free him. The Brahman even suggests that anything he \nsays (or thinks) must be wrong (\"It is seldom good to hear what they \n[ghosts] say.\"), and the \"Name, dissolution, and release\" are good things.\n\nSo maybe the magar has returned because they are too much \"in the \nworld\"? After all, the grandmother laments that people are going to \ndie, rather than accepting illusion like the Brahman. There's also \nthat weird comment that the peasant and his friends, \"ignorant of the \ncomparative religion of the schools, would have killed the magar if \nthey could.\" So it sounds like killing the magar isn't the right \nresponse to his return. The Brahman is trying to \"propitiate\" him at \nthe beginning, which is more like acceptance than driving him away.\n\nThere is the comment about the jungle having been cut down for lumber \n50 years ago and now growing back. That might be something different.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n*From:* Marc Aramini \n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Sent:* Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:05 PM\n*Subject:* (urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man\n\nThe Dead Man\n\nThis was first published in 1965 in Sir!, and while thematically it is \nsimilar to the 1951 work of Wolfe, especially \"The Grave Secret\", the \nprose is far more precise and articulate. Gene's progress, of all the \ntruly great writers, seems more \"made\" that born.\n\nSUMMARY: Taking place in a Hindi river setting, for the first time in \ngenerations the river seems unsafe. The main character's \nsister-in-law has been taken by a Magar (crocodile, but Urdu/Hindi for \n\"water monster\") 9 days previously. His wife has been bitten on the \nfoot by a jackal and it has reacted badly when she tried to distract \nit away from her young son, so her husband, called the peasant, must \nperform the womanly task of getting water from the river since his own \nmother is too old.\n\nHe rises early, but there is an old Brahman already on the step \nsitting outside his door, who has cast Marigold wreaths into the river \nto placate the Magar and other river spirits. The man retrieves the \nfirst jug and returns to his hut where his wife moans and stirs before \nhe goes back with his second, chipped jug for more water. He grows \ncareless, and his foot slips. As a result, the Magar snatches him by \nthe leg and he passively accepts his fate. He awakens in the lair of \nthe crocodile, next to a blackbuck and a woman whose body seems \nfamiliar. He escapes through the \"chimney\" of the lair and makes his \nway back to his family (the limp is implied from the injury to his leg \nduring the croc attack). He stands before his house and looks first \nand last at his wife.\n\nThe Brahman is seated inside his house and says, \"Do not address it. \nIt is seldom good to hear what they will say\" before casting saffron \npowder from a brass bowl into the air to bring the dead peasant release.\n\nCOMMENTARY: Once again we have a dead man unaware of his condition. \nHowever, we must address the moment when he returns to awareness after \nthe attack. \"When next he came to know our world -- maya, that which \nis not God -- it was a small circle of pale blue far above his eyes.\" \nIn hinduism, Maya is like an illusion. Along with matter and activity \nit creates a trifecta through which man \"exists\", but he experiences \nmatter and activity through Maya. Thus dualism is taken to an extreme \ndegree -- the real world as an illusion, that which is separate from \nthe reality of the divine. Maya is also somehow linked to the act or \nactors involved in the creation of the physical world.\n\nThe Brahmin is someone who has come to experience knowledge of the \nself, BUT it is a bit suspicious that he is sitting there waiting \noutside the man's door when he leaves, then is not present the first \ntime the man returns ... but the wife moans and stirs in her bed. \nSince the description is of a very old man I will not posit that the \nBrahmin had a vested interest in the wife.\n\nHowever, the peasant's half-brother's wife, which is probably the \ncorpse rotting in the den of the crocodile, also evokes the feeling \"A \ndrugged and whirling concourse of surmises rushed through his mind, \nuntil simultaneously an without consciousness of contradiction he felt \nthat he lay in the palace of a scaled river-spirit and asleep beside \nhis wife.\"\nThe crocodile has teeth that are ill suited to eating the man, so it \nhas to wait for food to get appropriately soft and rotten to consume \nit, in its little cooking den with a chimney to prevent the noxious \nrotting gasses to poison the den. The man escapes through this.\n\nPOSSIBLE AMBIGUITIES: Is the Magar there for judgment? Why has the \nriver been safe for so long? Was the man having an affair with his \nhalf-brother's wife -- is that why they both shared the river-spirit's \nattention? Was the Brahmin innocent or complicit, being there before \nthe man left and then present at his final return to dissolve his \nconsciousness, but not there upon his first return, when he heard the \nmoan of his wife? Also, is the woman that he recognizes his sister in \nlaw? It would seem to be, but has she rotted enough for 9 days? It \ndoes not seem to be another fresh victim that he \"knows\".\n\nALLUSIONS: Besides Weird Tales, we have Kipling and The Jungle Book \nhere! The crocodile is called by Magar just as Baloo is a bear. \nHindi religious systems seem to be treated seriously, especially that \nseparation of real world as illusion from the actual reality of the \ndivine -- the Dead Man has unknowingly fallen between those two.\n\nRELIGIOUS CONNOTATION: We should look at The Brahman as someone who \nis aware of his own spiritual state and maya as that which is separate \nfrom God; interesting concepts, because the main character, like many \nof Wolfe's, is able to accept his fate but not understand it (so he is \nnot very \"Brahman\").\n\nAlso, there is a subtle difference between Brahmin and Brahman, and \nWolfe usually employs the \"a\" spelling.\n\nFUTURE ECHOES: As Gerry said of \"The Grave Secret\", it seems clear \nthat \"The Other Dead Man\" will be related to this, and I would also \nliken it to the stories where indigenous myths are given power and \ntreated seriously (even the Latro books would fall into this category \n-- Egyptian gods in Egypt, Greek gods in Greece, etc). The idea of \nMaya as an illusory real world seems to permeate Gene's work, though I \nwould normally ascribe it to \"Gnosticism\".\n\nAlso, we have ANOTHER leg injury, and besides a possibly broken \nvertibral column, the most obvious source of discomfort to the peasant \nwhen he \"awakens\". This wound was given at the time of translation \nbetween life and death, or between maya and that which is beyond illusion.\n\nThe next one will be \"Mountains like Mice\" - I need a day or two to \nget that one prepared.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333113631.41644.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-30T13:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<4F750CA1.3010305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree, especially looking back now?to a time without easy access to the internet; it is pretty easy for me to look up the terms in a general database and find references - Gene seems to me obsessively complete in his reasearch even very early in his career. \n\nThe gun stories we are coming up to now are so meticulous in their detail about the type of wood used in construction, how long it would take for the scent of that wood to fade, etc. Even in his fairly amateur works, he really does make most other writers look very shoddy and sloppy - this is why I feel when something is elided in Wolfe, HE knows exactly what should feel the gap, and it was engineered that way. \n\n--- On Thu, 3/29/12, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333125471.63542.YahooMailNeo@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-30T16:37:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1333113631.41644.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if he was this meticulous that early on, even for a little ghost story, it tells us a little about how he generally regards detail in narration. He's a high-resolution writer, and as you say, such \"necessary\" detail is to be both given and withheld. Sometimes the pattern of permitted/omitted information forms a puzzle, but that doesn't mean the gaps are just puzzles.\n\n\n\n \n\nYes, I agree, especially looking back now?to a time without easy access to the internet; it is pretty easy for me to look up the terms in a general database and find references - Gene seems to me obsessively complete in his reasearch even very early in his career. \n\nThe gun stories we are coming up to now are so meticulous in their detail about the type of wood used in construction, how long it would take for the scent of that wood to fade, etc. Even in his fairly amateur works, he really does make most other writers look very shoddy and sloppy - this is why I feel when something is elided in Wolfe, HE knows exactly what should feel the gap, and it was engineered that way. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/29/12, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man\nTo: \"Craig Brewer\" , \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 6:30 PM\n\n\nI can only add to this that the depth of research needed for this little OMG-I'm-the-ghost ghost story is remarkable. It's not entirely convincing, because of the little Orientalist \"footnotes,\" but the sheer legwork to get us into the peasant's mind---banter of women, jungle species succession, the croc's chimney, if true (I can't confirm it)---is commendable. \n\nIncidentally, the croc is known as the \"mugger\" crocodile and does lie in wait for prey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugger_crocodile). However, the manner in which it actually killed the peasant sounds more like the \"death roll\" described for the saltwater croc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_crocodile). One would need to delve deeper than Wikipedia to? sort it out further, but the conflation works, if conflation it is. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333134157.5393.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-30T19:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<4F750CA1.3010305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net\nI can only add to this that the depth of research needed for this little OMG-I'm-the-ghost ghost story is remarkable. It's not entirely convincing, because of the little Orientalist \"footnotes,\" but the sheer legwork to get us into the peasant's mind---banter of women, jungle species succession, the croc's chimney, if true (I can't confirm it)---is commendable. \n\nIncidentally, the croc is known as the \"mugger\" crocodile and does lie in wait for prey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugger_crocodile). However, the manner in which it actually killed the peasant sounds more like the \"death roll\" described for the saltwater croc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_crocodile). One would need to delve deeper than Wikipedia to? sort it out further, but the conflation works, if conflation it is. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently all crocodilians ambush their prey and roll like that.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=f8uFPKPzlnEC&pg=PA264\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333136550.49498.YahooMailNeo@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-30T19:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1333134157.5393.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Makes sense. Looks like ours used methods ABC: ambush, death roll, hold and drown. \n\n\nThe description in your source is slightly different---it doesn't mention the disorienting effect of the death roll, although the peasant's leg seems to almost have come off, which effect it does mention.\n\nWhat a bizarre book, btw. Where are the monster stats? (never mind where was the editor)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net\nI can only add to this that the depth of research needed for this little OMG-I'm-the-ghost ghost story is remarkable. It's not entirely convincing, because of the little Orientalist \"footnotes,\" but the sheer legwork to get us into the peasant's mind---banter of women, jungle species succession, the croc's chimney, if true (I can't confirm it)---is commendable. \n\nIncidentally, the croc is known as the \"mugger\" crocodile and does lie in wait for prey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugger_crocodile). However, the manner in which it actually killed the peasant sounds more like the \"death roll\" described for the saltwater croc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_crocodile). One would need to delve deeper than Wikipedia to? sort it out further, but the conflation works, if conflation it is. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently all crocodilians ambush their prey and roll like that.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=f8uFPKPzlnEC&pg=PA264\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-03-30T23:55:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "<1333136550.49498.YahooMailNeo@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 30 Mar 2012, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nMakes sense. Looks like ours used methods ABC: ambush, death roll, hold \nand drown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The woman who survived a salty attack a few years ago in the Northern \nTerritory played dead and escaped from the hollow log where she was \nstashed, IIRC. You just have to keep a cool head...:)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F766EA5.1030500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-31T02:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 4: The Dead Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The story does seem plausible, doesn't it? That is, that the Dead Man \ncould be alive---until you recall the title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/30/2012 7:55 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Fri, 30 Mar 2012, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Makes sense. Looks like ours used methods ABC: ambush, death roll, \nhold and drown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The woman who survived a salty attack a few years ago in the Northern \nTerritory played dead and escaped from the hollow log where she was \nstashed, IIRC. You just have to keep a cool head...:)\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }