{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6204", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6204, "subject": "Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice", "messages": 106, "voices": 18, "first": "2012-03-28T02:32:54+00:00", "last": "2012-04-27T13:49:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1332901974.10002.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T02:32:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mountains like Mice\nThis is Gene’s first “SF” sale to Worlds of If in 1966. It is extremely unlike the previous stories in that it is much longer and there is an “adventure” element to it.\n\nSUMMARY: The story opens with Dirk being colored head to toe in a dark purple dye (like wild grapes) for his “Retreat” into the desert wilderness of his world outside the safe confines of his school. It appears as though it is something like a closed monastery or college environment, or perhaps like the Guild in the New Sun books. It is fairly clear that if he fails in Retreat, he will become a “Captive . Avoiding capture for a set time seems to be the path to becoming a Master — yet it does not seem that it is the small gyrda which Dirk must avoid, but the larger people with whom he has safely lived his life so far. Those who fail are left as Captives, like the fat, sly man dying him, Otho. The title comes into play in the first page when Dirk thinks of his Master Theophilus talking about ?the mountains like mice” — but Dirk thinks that Theophilus is thinking of stealth and disease and other things when he says it. \n\nHis education at the school seems to be mostly cause and effect rather than “facts” which are reserved for the masters. This quote is extremely important: “From the wall, a raven which had been perched with its back arrogantly toward them as it stared out over the desert suddenly launched itself thrashing into the air. Outlined for a moment like a heraldic figure, black against the blaze of the afternoon sky, it brought to the young man a sudden personal realization of the frighteningly complex linkage between cause and effect, stimulus and response, which guides every living creature. Above all others this was the concept his instructors had droned at him daily until he had almost learned to ignore it.” Yet the raven lands on the buffoonish Otho. Masters can “control all sorts of animals; summon the hawks from the sky.” He sees Master Aleksandr enter the courtyard on a horse. Dirk vows to head right for the mountains during his\n retreat, primarily because the mountains harbor “the original owners of the ground”. \n\nIn the morning he is taken to begin his retreat, and Otho offers him a bottle that will supposedly counteract the dye so he can simply avoid being taken and associate with normal people before returning to the school after a few months, basically taking the easy way out. Otho disappears rather dexterously, but Dirk hears a commotion and sees a larger human in the distance being hustled off by four smaller gyrda (they may be the poor or pretty people mentioned in the text, like fairies). He thinks Otho has been taken, so he gives pursuit, following their trail up a mountain.\n\nHe comes across a man chained on a large rock on a plateau, where the man can contemplate the blue star in the sky. It turns out to be Master Aleksandr instead of Otho, and he warns him to avoid the left side of the rock, for a hamadrayad/cobra de capello lurks there to “guard” Aleksandr. They try to free him, but Dirk’s knife will not suffice, so they use the trick of Hannibal recorded in Livy: placing a bit of tree in a small hole in the rock, wetting it with crude wine or vinegar to make it expand, shattering the rock. Here Aleksandr reveals that they are on Mars — perhaps partially terraformed, but mostly inhabitable. The gyrda are the humans who have been genetically altered to acclimate and survive on Mars — poor people would volunteer to have their reproductive cells “changed” in such a fashion. It appears as though the Gyrda have captured Master Aleksandr to force him to contemplate that blue star of the Motherworld — Earth,\n so that he will be impelled to work hard to return there. Earth has cut off Mars, so the super educated great-grandparents of this generation have descended into a mostly illiterate “survivor’s” culture — the gyrda seem to be roguish, but can still perform scientific feats like creating the hamadryad. Only the biological sciences have survived while the hard sciences have died out, and Aleksandr, as a master, can control the beast to some degree.\n\nHannibal’s moisturized tree branch in the rock works, and Dirk rescues Aleksandr, who allows an unconventional meeting with Master Theophilus before the end of the Retreat. There, Theophilus reveals that the “mountains as mice” saying meant that the mice are experimental animals, and the mountains have been injected with all the viruses and vaccines to see which one will result in the dominant survivor on Mars (so the Gyrda, the retreatants, and even Dirk are like those viruses and vaccines). Only the gyrda were meant to stay there forever, but the scientists and their offspring have been abandoned by Earth, so they must adapt. A second wave of altered humans that have more heart and racial affinity for the customs of Earth will be attempted, and it is revealed that if Dirk had used the dye remover Otho gave him, he would have died, as they cannot afford cheaters in positions of power, where the true knowledge of their position in the universe\n is revealed.\n\nCOMMENTARY: The concluding commentary makes it clear that Dirk is the next attempt at “colonizing” Mars ? ??The wise men who composed the gyrda left out the heart, Theophilus said slowly. “They are quick and clever with tools and more fit for Mars than men are, but they have no hearts. Did you know, Dirk, that Aleksander’s name means ?defender of men?” And mine is “dear to God” we are descended from the Russia and the Greek contingents originally, I suppose. That was the sort of thing that was forgotten THE FIRST TIME.?\n\nThe conclusion makes it clear that THIS retreat has been Dirk's trial run, or an experiment: ??Would you accept it if the changed men were to be no less human than you are, Dirk??As the two of them were walking back to the academy, Otho chuckled. “No less human than he is himself!” Master Theophilus reminded him tartly that a fool should not speak.\nSo judging from that exchange, Dirk is the second wave of altered “humanity” engineered to live on Mars, and his trial two-fold: not to put the dye dissolver on his skin and honestly pass the “retreat” — and to have compassion on a fellow and act to save him. Whether the gyrda are being controlled by a master like Theophilus or not is unclear, but Aleksander can clearly control the hamadryad/cobra de capello with his thoughts. The allusion to mountain like mice is from a biologist’s perspective — to make a true surviving race on Mars that will still have some affinity for its human origin. Dirk is that experimental factor inserted into the system of the mountains.\n\nWhat about those “original owners” mentioned living in the Mountains? Why are the Mountains “safe” for a retreatant? \n\n ALLUSIONS: I suppose I must list Burroughs Barsoom/Mars books as an influence, with that purple fellow running around on Mars instead of green or red ones , but I don’t think it is a particularly revealing or important distinction to make. Perhaps Vance works like the Planet of Adventure are similiar, but they are pretty continguous in time so I think that was just the zeitgeist of scifi at a time when stories like \"Rose for Ecclesiastes\" kind of became the \"seal of the prophets\" on the habitable Mars obsession of sci fi.\n\nLivy and Hannibal are directly mentioned, as are the meanings of names. As a result, it behooves us to look up the meanings of the names we have: Dirk, Otho, and the gyrda. The story claims the name gyrda comes from a measure of distance half the height of a man — the yard, 3 feet, or the latin gradus, 2.5 feet? Dirk means leader of the people (or it could be a dagger). Otho seems to mean wealthy. Gyrda — feminine plural for gods in Scandinavian. With their fairy-like comportment it seems that this may be an appropriate name for them. They are 1/3 the weight of Aleksandr and much shorter. They are referred to as the pretty or poor people, and this later makes sense when it is revealed that poor people volunteer their progeny and ovum for these experimental changes.\n\nPOSSIBLE AMBIGUITIES: Where there Martians before the gyrda? Is Otho really “in the know” as a master pretending to be a captive with his power over that Raven and his knowledge of Dirk’s real “humanity?” Why did the Gyrda want Aleksandr to look at Earth — simply to spur him to want to go back there and make scientific effort towards that goal? What does it tell Dirk when there are no Mesquite beans under the Mesquite tree? That a flying animal has taken them?\n\nRELIGIOUS CONNOTATION: Almost non-existent, though perhaps Aleksander chained on the rock to look up at the blue star of earth by the gyrda is a mythic resonance with either Prometheus or Loki. The cobra, called a hamadryad, guarding him there does seem to also resonate with the Loki myths where the serpent guards him, but this serpent is kind of ineffectual. It does kill a wolf, though, to display its ferocity. The gyrda as scandinavian gods or fairies without a heart is perhaps interesting to think of, as if all this scientific meddling has brough back nature spirits that have little humanity.\n\nFUTURE ECHOES: I hate to say it, but calling a cobra de capello a hamadrayd/tree spirit certainly seems to evoke the snakelike liana vine inhumi. Also, the “right” species for a planet seems to hearken to Fifth Head of Cerberus — and a tense Mars/Earth relationship does seem to presage Operation Ares. Once again, our main character does not know that he is different from everyone else in the story, as a test run for the “new” altered human fit to live on Mars permanently. Also, the idea of looking for cause and effect as an obsessive drill seems extremely Wolfean.\n\nAlso, the wolf is pretty prevalent in this, “the high pitched howl of one of the little desert wolves, a sound he had heard often while stretched on his cot in the dormitory, seemed friendly and familiar” when he is ready to start his retreat, and later the hamadrayad eats a wolf to intimidate the prisoner of the Gyrdas." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T11:06:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe [was: Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice]", "in_reply_to": "<1332901974.10002.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mountains like Mice\n\nThe gyrda as scandinavian gods or fairies without a heart is perhaps interesting \nto think of, as if all this scientific meddling has brough back nature spirits that \nhave little humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fairy-like races have been a continual thread throughout Wolfe, but the details vary. They are usually small, they are usually attuned to the natural environment; they are always distinctly non-human and mysterious, and difficult for humans to understand. Wolfe’s aliens (or in this case modified humans) more often than not have at least some fairy-like aspects. The frequent fairy resonances are probably in part a deliberate strategy for evoking a sense of mystery, and tilting Wolfe’s SF in the direction of fantasy.\nThe degree to which fairy morality intersects with human morality varies; it looks like it’s not too high with the Gyrda. \nCarrying on from this thought, it occured to me that robot races in Wolfe have common characteristics too. They are often moral exemplars. (Of course, it is logical that we should construct them according to our ideals, though they often evolve beyond the plan.)\nIt occurred to me that perhaps (in Wolfe) robots think of humans the same way humans think of fairies. The more I think about this, though, the more I am inclined to discard the idea. There may be elements of it there with chems and similar constructs, but I don’t think the analogy apples generally.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F72F726.5070900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-28T11:33:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe [was: Short Story 5: Mountains Like\n Mice]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/28/2012 7:06 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Marc Aramini \nMountains like Mice" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The gyrda as scandinavian gods or fairies without a heart is perhaps \ninteresting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to think of, as if all this scientific meddling has brough back nature \nspirits that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have little humanity.\nFairy-like races have been a continual thread throughout Wolfe, but \nthe details vary. They are usually small, they are usually attuned to \nthe natural environment; they are always distinctly non-human and \nmysterious, and difficult for humans to understand. Wolfe’s aliens (or \nin this case modified humans) more often than not have at least some \nfairy-like aspects. The frequent fairy resonances are probably in part \na deliberate strategy for evoking a sense of mystery, and tilting \nWolfe’s SF in the direction of fantasy.\nThe degree to which fairy morality intersects with human morality \nvaries; it looks like it’s not too high with the Gyrda.\nCarrying on from this thought, it occured to me that robot races in \nWolfe have common characteristics too. They are often moral exemplars. \n(Of course, it is logical that we should construct them according to \nour ideals, though they often evolve beyond the plan.)\nIt occurred to me that perhaps (in Wolfe) robots think of humans the \nsame way humans think of fairies. The more I think about this, though, \nthe more I am inclined to discard the idea. There may be elements of \nit there with chems and similar constructs, but I don’t think the \nanalogy apples generally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without having read the story (though I will), I want to comment that \nthe \"moral robot\" has been around at least since Asimov's \"3 laws,\" \nwhich basically hardwired robots to be MORE moral than humans. Naturally \nthey represent the kind of rational and dispassionate morality that we \nhumans, for a few hundred years at least, were imagined to aspire to.\n\nAlso, I agree that chems/robots are not likely to view their creators as \nfairy-like, but I think there is something to the idea, and it probably \ndepends on the circumstances. The question is whether a better model \nexists, such as the gods.\n\nFairies are mysterious, removed, and often heartless---much like the \ngods, fair enough---but we don't see them as our creators. On the other \nhand, the classical gods could often appear capricious as well---though \nthey just as often followed moral laws to the letter in ways and to a \ndegree that astounded humans. Fairies tend to follow contracts with \nhumans to the letter in a similar way, but do not generally impose their \nmorality on humans directly as the gods do---outside of children's \nliterature, where fairies (sometimes named \"Dame ___\") are often plain \nstand-ins for gods and goddesses. On balance, both comparisons are \nproblematic, and the two traditions are inseparable anyway.\n\n(If robots had a god, he would be Vulcan, the gods' fabricator and \nmachinist.)\n\nThe chems dwell among their creators and appear to possess some of their \n\"mortal\" capabilities, but not all, and are ready to shoot them on \ncommand. So there doesn't appear to be much going on in the way of \nworship or mythologizing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332945049.52683.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T14:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice and the purple dye", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was driving to work and I had a DOH! moment.\n\nOf course with the dominant metaphor of Mountains Like Mice (actually it's a simile, huh?) I should have realized WHY the main character is being dyed deep purple at the beginning.\n\nMy undergraduate degree is in Biochemistry; I remember starting every invasion assay of metastasizing cells or even any cellular research with a good purple dye like crystal violet stain so that you could see the cells under the microscope.\n\nSince only the biological sciences or left, this staining begins the experiment. The simile of Mountains Like Mice really does indicate that Dirk is the experimental factor being introduced into the biological environment. \n\nSo the dye is just part of the scientific method for these cellular biologists on a macrocosmic scale. \n\nNeat, huh?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T16:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F72F726.5070900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Fairy-like races have been a continual thread throughout \nWolfe, but the details vary. They are usually small, they are usually \nattuned to the natural environment; they are always distinctly non-human \nand mysterious, and difficult for humans to understand. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAn insightful observation. Is this a departure from a previous position in \nwhich it was asserted there are no fairy references in the Sun Series \n(and 5HoC, i.e. Shadow Children)? \n \nAs part of the aspect of \"attuned to the natural environment\" I'd add an element \nof being primitive in tool use and social structure (like Shadow Children, abos \n[half-fairy?] and Neighbors and perhaps an animalistic quality like inhumi. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurred to me that perhaps (in Wolfe) robots think of humans the same way \nhumans think of fairies. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't think this idea is worth discarding. As David observes, it is a theme\nwhich can commonly be found not just in Wolfe but across SF and Fantasy. It\nrelates to the basic nature of robots, humans and fairies. Robots, through \nelectronic programming, are naturally more rule-governed than humans but are\noften portrayed as being fearful and/or envious of human freedom and emotions. \nLikewise humans, through tight family and social structure, are more \nrule-governed than fairies and are often fearful and/or envious of their wild \nand free nature. Perhaps fair to claim the reverse: fairies view humans a bit\nthe way humans view robots. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3CAE2553E46C4275BB863F277DCF8DC0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T17:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Fairy-like races have been a continual thread throughout \nWolfe, but the details vary. They are usually small, they are usually \nattuned to the natural environment; they are always distinctly non-human \nand mysterious, and difficult for humans to understand. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An insightful observation. Is this a departure from a previous position in \nwhich it was asserted there are no fairy references in the Sun Series \n(and 5HoC, i.e. Shadow Children)? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I remember, I stated that there seem to be no significant fairy references in the Book of the New Sun. I do not recall extending it to the other works you mention. In fact I have never disputed that the Neighbours in the Short Sun have some fairy-like characteristics; what I rejected in one discussion was the idea that they are completely interchangeable with fairies, and that arbitrary characteristics of fairies can be assigned to them.\n\nThe Shadow Children in the second part of 5HOC are an interesting inversion of the trope, since they are the devolved descendants of humans, and the viewpoint characters are the aliens. In the third book the “natural order” is restored as the Abos become the mysterious “fairies”. The Fairy is the Outsider, in other words: in the world ruled by abos (Sandwalker’s people and the Marshmen), the humans are the fairies. After the second wave of humans takes control, the abos become the fairies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As part of the aspect of \"attuned to the natural environment\" I'd add an element \nof being primitive in tool use and social structure (like Shadow Children, abos \n[half-fairy?] and Neighbors and perhaps an animalistic quality like inhumi. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems a bit of a grab-bag of unrelated characteristics and beings. In particular the Neighbours are, or at least recently were, accomplished tool-users who built spacecraft among other things (and there is no reason to think they are not still equally accomplished in their own dimension or whatever), and the inhumi are not especially fairy-like; among mythological beings their most obvious resemblance is to vampires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that perhaps (in Wolfe) robots think of humans the same way \nhumans think of fairies. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this idea is worth discarding. As David observes, it is a theme\nwhich can commonly be found not just in Wolfe but across SF and Fantasy. It\nrelates to the basic nature of robots, humans and fairies. Robots, through \nelectronic programming, are naturally more rule-governed than humans but are\noften portrayed as being fearful and/or envious of human freedom and emotions. \nLikewise humans, through tight family and social structure, are more \nrule-governed than fairies and are often fearful and/or envious of their wild \nand free nature. Perhaps fair to claim the reverse: fairies view humans a bit\nthe way humans view robots. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that might work.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F735100.4010501@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T17:57:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/28/2012 11:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nLikewise humans, through tight family and social structure, are more\nrule-governed than fairies and are often fearful and/or envious of their wild\nand free nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh? Don't fairies generally have strictures they constitutionally can't \nbreak, like being unable to go back on their word, can't break the seal \nof the cross, etc? While humans are free to lie, betray, blaspheme, etc, \nand repent at leisure?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T20:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F735100.4010501@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As far as I remember, I stated that there seem to be \nno significant fairy references in the Book of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, okay. For me, the small Tzadkiel is significant enough to qualify.\nThe Armiger's Daughter also seems a nod in that direction. Mentions of\nkelpies and nixies, etc. also seem to allude to the faerie world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Shadow Children in the second part of 5HOC are an interesting inversion \nof the trope, since they are the devolved descendants of humans, and the \nviewpoint characters are the aliens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think I remember this disagreement. I tend to agree with James that the\nShadow Children are shapeshifting shadowy natives to the planet who \napproximate humans partially as Shadow Children and more fully as abos. Both\nexplanations are given in the text and even The Old Wise One is confused about\nhis/their real origin. I guess each reader may choose the explanation they prefer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In particular the Neighbours are, or at least recently were, accomplished tool-users \nwho built spacecraft among other things (and there is no reason to think they are not \nstill equally accomplished in their own dimension or whatever), and the inhumi are not \nespecially fairy-like; among mythological beings their most obvious resemblance is to \nvampires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I meant to say that Neighbors were fairy-like and had an animal quality to them. I\nremember thinking of centaurs when I first read OBW but the later reference to Dionysus\nmade me think perhaps goats were the intended reference. I suppose the connection to\nHorn and his ungulate named sons is not coincidental, either way.\n \nThe Neighbors were formerly highly civilized and industrial etc. They were also war-like\nand genocidal (perhaps due to Inhumi influence). Anyway, I get the impression they have\nmoved beyond all that by the time Horn meets them. They don't seem like futuristic,\ntechnologically advanced aliens at all. They are campfire types, show no use of technology\nand have a certain nobility to them.\n \nI wonder sometimes if Wolfe attaches spiritual advancement with losing technology. The \nend of UotNS might suggest it. Unlike the Hiero-types (but like Severian), the Green Man \ndoes not seem to need machinery to walk the time corridors. Plus the Green Man and some of Severian's musings seem to suggest that carnivory is also something spiritually advanced \nhumans will leave behind. If the Neigbors are ungulate in nature it might suggest they\nare not carnivorous (in stark contrast to Inhumi).\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F738C5C.9020200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-28T22:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/28/2012 12:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't think this idea is worth discarding. As David observes, it is a theme\nwhich can commonly be found not just in Wolfe but across SF and Fantasy. It\nrelates to the basic nature of robots, humans and fairies. Robots, through\nelectronic programming, are naturally more rule-governed than humans but are\noften portrayed as being fearful and/or envious of human freedom and emotions.\nLikewise humans, through tight family and social structure, are more\nrule-governed than fairies and are often fearful and/or envious of their wild\nand free nature. Perhaps fair to claim the reverse: fairies view humans a bit\nthe way humans view robots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think robots and fairies are not too different. I see \nfairies as strict rule-followers, although often malevolent. Robots are \nalso strict rule-followers, but usually not malevolent outside of \nTransformers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F738F09.707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-28T22:22:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F735100.4010501@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/28/2012 1:57 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 3/28/2012 11:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Likewise humans, through tight family and social structure, are more\nrule-governed than fairies and are often fearful and/or envious of \ntheir wild\nand free nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh? Don't fairies generally have strictures they constitutionally \ncan't break, like being unable to go back on their word, can't break \nthe seal of the cross, etc? While humans are free to lie, betray, \nblaspheme, etc, and repent at leisure?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's more the sense I get, yes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1332974385.47546.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-28T22:39:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/28/12, Lee Berman wrote:\nI wonder sometimes if Wolfe attaches spiritual advancement\nwith losing technology. The \nend of UotNS might suggest it. Unlike the Hiero-types (but\nlike Severian), the Green Man \ndoes not seem to need machinery to walk the time corridors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus the Green Man and some of Severian's musings seem to\nsuggest that carnivory is also something spiritually\nadvanced \nhumans will leave behind. If the Neigbors are ungulate in\nnature it might suggest they\nare not carnivorous (in stark contrast to Inhumi).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing technology\" and true spiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems would not be portrayed so humanistically. Wolfe is not by profession your typical anti-tech kind of guy - this is a man educated as an engineer who helped develop the machine that made pringles. \n\nPerhaps there might be a relationship between decadence and technology where man no longer has to truly work at the things he used to, but I can't see this as a blanket condemnation of high technology. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F73AF88.1060701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-29T00:40:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1332974385.47546.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/28/2012 6:39 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Wed, 3/28/12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wonder sometimes if Wolfe attaches spiritual advancement\nwith losing technology. The\nend of UotNS might suggest it. Unlike the Hiero-types (but\nlike Severian), the Green Man\ndoes not seem to need machinery to walk the time corridors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plus the Green Man and some of Severian's musings seem to\nsuggest that carnivory is also something spiritually\nadvanced\nhumans will leave behind. If the Neigbors are ungulate in\nnature it might suggest they\nare not carnivorous (in stark contrast to Inhumi)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing technology\" and true spiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems would not be portrayed so humanistically. Wolfe is not by profession your typical anti-tech kind of guy - this is a man educated as an engineer who helped develop the machine that made pringles.\n\nPerhaps there might be a relationship between decadence and technology where man no longer has to truly work at the things he used to, but I can't see this as a blanket condemnation of high technology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably, the need for technology disappears when one becomes a god. \nBut this is not necessarily a sign of /spiritual /advancement." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T06:19:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F73AF88.1060701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Eh? Don't fairies generally have strictures they constitutionally \ncan't break, like being unable to go back on their word, can't break \nthe seal of the cross, etc? While humans are free to lie, betray, \nblaspheme, etc, and repent at leisure?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: That's more the sense I get, yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOh I meant to respond to Jeff's cogent comment. I would certainly agree that fairies\n\nseem to be bound by rules. But far fewer rules than humans. I almost get the sense\n\nthey are given these rules to keep them interesting characters. Even Superman had to\n\nhave his kryptonite. Fairies wouldn't be of much fun or interest if they had full\n\nlicense to run amok in any way they pleased.\n\n \n\nIn consideration of Jeff's comment, I am thinking David's remark that robots and fairies\n\nare more alike than humans is because both are solely rule governed. Jeff's examples \n\nillustrate that only humans have the freedom to break our rules and thus only humans can\n\nbe said to be guided by a moral compass rather than programming or laws of the super-\n\nnatural.\n\n \n\nAnyway, I still get a sense that humans occupy one sort of middle ground. A robot or\n\ncomputer's every action is guided by written rules (superego?). A fairy does whatever\n\nit wants, its actions merely constrained or circumscribed by a few rules (id?). Humans\n\n(ego?) seem to be a balance and/or compromise between the two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson: I remember this from Elijah Baley in _The Caves of Steel_,\nbefore he became a stinking robo-sympathizer. Excellent points. I remember\nwondering if Asimov was making a coherent point with that, or just\nappropriating a term for its emotional impact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI remember it too. It recreated a traumatic event from my childhood when my beloved, \n\nrevered and usually amiable grandfather got into a verbal conflict with a Latino parking \n\nattendant and repeatedly called him \"boy!\" despite him being a grown man and visibly upset \n\nby the dispute. I asked about it and it was explained that that is simply how you have to \n\ntalk to such people.\n\n \n\nBut Elijah Bailey's redemption in his continually growing respect for robots (and their\n\nhumanity) gave me hope for my old grandpa. (plus, the patient, serene, introspective, \n\nself-sacrificing robot Daneel Olivaw remains one of my favorite characters in SF). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T06:29:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing technology\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and true spiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems would " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "not be portrayed so humanistically. Wolfe is not by profession your typical anti-tech " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "kind of guy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Presumably, the need for technology disappears when one becomes a god. \nBut this is not necessarily a sign of /spiritual /advancement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest Wolfe is some sort of luddite. As David suggests,\n\nmy thought was only, as for the Green Man and perhaps Neighbors, that technology simply \n\nisn't needed anymore for more advanced beings. I'm actually surprised that Marc of all people\n\nraises this point. I thought you were highly attuned to the WOlfean idea of humanity's\n\nfuture as becoming more quasi-plant-like.\n\n \n\n \n\nYep, David, since there are hints of \"bad\" gods in the Sun Series (and other WOlfe works)\n\nwho are not reliant on technology, the mere achievement of godhood isn't indicative of \n\nspiritual advancement. As was recently discussed, the only way to become more spiritually\n\nadvanced in the lupine universe is to become more Christian. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F745155.5080003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-29T12:11:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/29/2012 2:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn consideration of Jeff's comment, I am thinking David's remark that robots and fairies\n\nare more alike than humans is because both are solely rule governed. Jeff's examples\n\nillustrate that only humans have the freedom to break our rules and thus only humans can\n\nbe said to be guided by a moral compass rather than programming or laws of the super-\n\nnatural.\n\n\n\nAnyway, I still get a sense that humans occupy one sort of middle ground. A robot or\n\ncomputer's every action is guided by written rules (superego?). A fairy does whatever\n\nit wants, its actions merely constrained or circumscribed by a few rules (id?). Humans\n\n(ego?) seem to be a balance and/or compromise between the two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes sense, since humans pretty much occupy the middle of any \nconceivable ground. We are not wholly rational, but we imagine ourselves \nto be; we are not immortal, but we sometimes forget we are mortal; we \nare seldom honorable, but we strive to be, and then some little pixie or \nhobbit or robot slave shows us up.\n\nI might note that demons are rule-constrained too, in the way genies \nare: they are \"programmed\" to follow the letter, but never the spirit, \nof any agreement. Malevolent fairies are not much different. One could \nlump them all together and generalize that all beings from gods to imps \nrepresent/are projections upon a world we know operates systematically \nbut in a complex way we don't understand that often produces unexpected \nresults. Or, we could take a cue from evolutionary biology and say that \nthey were imagined (i.e., created) to reinforce social conventions, and \nthis is why their capricious-but-rigorous behavior always seems to point \nup some human failing. Modern literature thus finds them useful in much \nthe same ways its earlier forms did." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T12:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Shadow Children in the second part of 5HOC are an interesting inversion \nof the trope, since they are the devolved descendants of humans, and the \nviewpoint characters are the aliens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I remember this disagreement. I tend to agree with James that the\nShadow Children are shapeshifting shadowy natives to the planet who \napproximate humans partially as Shadow Children and more fully as abos. Both\nexplanations are given in the text and even The Old Wise One is confused about\nhis/their real origin. I guess each reader may choose the explanation they prefer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only time it might be considered to be suggested in the text that the Shadow Children are natives is when the Old Wise One is confused. And he is confused for a very clearly stated reason: there is only one Shadow Child left in the vicinity and the Old Wise One is now 50% derived from Sandwalker. So when he says “Once we were long and lived in holes under trees” he is describing Sandwalker’s ancestors. Previous to this, when there were more Shadow Children, he is perfectly clear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbors were formerly highly civilized and industrial etc. They were also war-like\nand genocidal (perhaps due to Inhumi influence). Anyway, I get the impression they have\nmoved beyond all that by the time Horn meets them. They don't seem like futuristic,\ntechnologically advanced aliens at all. They are campfire types, show no use of technology\nand have a certain nobility to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m not sure how you deduce that they were warlike and genocidal (though I should imagine they would have liked to wipe out the inhumi). I thought we knew very little of their history.\nAs for the campfires, remember that all the Neighbours we see are on holiday, on a planet or plane where they cannot easily manipulate matter. They certainly have some technology: they are capable of millinery at least, and they use some sort of neural probe on Horn’s forehead when he is trapped in the pit. If they abandoned their space technology it cannot have been more than a few decades ago, and they speak knowledgeably of asteroids etc. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1FA671ACE79A438296A9A942E1C879F1@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T12:57:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F73AF88.1060701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing technology\" and true\n spiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems would \nnot be portrayed so humanistically. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia, Erebus et al don’t obviously use technology either. \n\nOf course it’s entirely possible and to my mind likely that Abaia, the Green Man and the Neighbours have extremely advanced technology, so advanced that it looks like magic. I speculated before that if a kiss from Juturna can make Severian capable of breathing underwater, it may well be that her saliva contains nanomachines that will remodel his organs of respiration.\n\nAs for spiritual advancement, the three groups we meet in the second part of 5HoC are not really all that spiritually advanced IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is not by profession your typical \nanti-tech kind of guy - this is a man educated as an engineer who helped \ndevelop the machine that made pringles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ghastly plastic orange in _Peace_ is IMO an allusion to those abominations. Probably it is the main reason for Weer’s punishment.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333026764.30692.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T13:12:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee this is philosophically interesting to me ... I think there is a turning away from meaty flesh in that and away from carnality and decay into something more immutable and less subject to \"the weakness of the flesh\" ... so I look at becoming mechanical or plant like as beig preferable to being merely flesh.\n\nVery interesting, huh? \"Plant Engineering\" heh heh heh.\n\nI think Wolfe's light can be shed on Wolfe's opus by his old day job." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/28/12, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nisn't needed anymore for more advanced beings. I'm actually\nsurprised that Marc of all people\n\nraises this point. I thought you were highly attuned to the\nWOlfean idea of humanity's\n\nfuture as becoming more quasi-plant-like." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F748B4F.9000702@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T16:18:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/29/2012 1:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, I still get a sense that humans occupy one sort of middle ground. A robot or\n\ncomputer's every action is guided by written rules (superego?). A fairy does whatever\n\nit wants, its actions merely constrained or circumscribed by a few rules (id?). Humans\n\n(ego?) seem to be a balance and/or compromise between the two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think fairies and the opportunity to join them in their frolic can \nrepresent the allure of casting off society's strictures, but the \ncomplications, like the conflict between the Seelie and Unseelie courts, \ncoming back home a hundred years out of date or just never coming back \nat all, these can represent the inescapable consequences of breaking \nwith your society and even becoming an outlaw; again, a morality tale. \n You can exchange the security as you have in your place among decent \nfolk for the freedom to be preyed up on by the lawless, who are \nregardless bound by their base nature." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F748F3A.7030807@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T16:35:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1FA671ACE79A438296A9A942E1C879F1@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/29/2012 7:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\n\n > I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing\ntechnology\" and true\n > spiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems\nwould\n > not be portrayed so humanistically.\nAbaia, Erebus et al don’t obviously use technology either.\nOf course it’s entirely possible and to my mind likely that Abaia, the\nGreen Man and the Neighbours have extremely advanced technology, so\nadvanced that it looks like magic. I speculated before that if a kiss\nfrom Juturna can make Severian capable of breathing underwater, it may\nwell be that her saliva contains nanomachines that will remodel his\norgans of respiration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders certainly uses technology to adapt himself to the water, \nJuturna may be likewise adapted with gills concealed by her green hair.\n\nNanomachines weren't a thing at the time of the BotNS' writing, and I \ndon't think it fits the retro theme to invent \"new\" scientific \njustifications." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<36657F5D1C0E40AA928985D5C2A5B42E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T17:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F748F3A.7030807@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/29/2012 7:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOf course it’s entirely possible and to my mind likely that Abaia, the\nGreen Man and the Neighbours have extremely advanced technology, so\nadvanced that it looks like magic. I speculated before that if a kiss\nfrom Juturna can make Severian capable of breathing underwater, it may\nwell be that her saliva contains nanomachines that will remodel his\norgans of respiration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baldanders certainly uses technology to adapt himself to the water, \nJuturna may be likewise adapted with gills concealed by her green hair.\n\nNanomachines weren't a thing at the time of the BotNS' writing, and I \ndon't think it fits the retro theme to invent \"new\" scientific \njustifications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Claw was written before Drexler popularised the concept of nanomachines, and that Wolfe would probably not have been thinking specifically of them. But I think it actually is the sort of thing he deliberately leaves open. I don’t believe he would imagine that Juturna could do this by “magic”, even if he has not thought much about the specific sort of technology she would use.\n[Of course there is also the possibility that she is lying, but I doubt it.]\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T17:41:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F748B4F.9000702@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Crowley's _Little, Big_ settles all these questions definitively and without ambiguity. ;)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9E44B14D-99DE-4284-81D0-0BD5447CAF01@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T17:45:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F748F3A.7030807@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also the fact that the sun is renewed through some pretty spectacular technology, too. So if the central image of renewal and rebirth is technological...\n\nPerhaps the difference is in the use. Baldanders is tech without wisdom and with hubris. Presumably, the Hiero-dul/gram/etc. combine technology with wisdom, understanding, at least more than Baldanders. Even Dr. Talos seems more human than Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 29, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 3/29/2012 7:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I highly doubt that there is a correlation between \"losing\ntechnology\" and true\nspiritual advancement in Wolfe, or entities like Jonas and the chems\nwould\nnot be portrayed so humanistically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Abaia, Erebus et al don’t obviously use technology either.\nOf course it’s entirely possible and to my mind likely that Abaia, the\nGreen Man and the Neighbours have extremely advanced technology, so\nadvanced that it looks like magic. I speculated before that if a kiss\nfrom Juturna can make Severian capable of breathing underwater, it may\nwell be that her saliva contains nanomachines that will remodel his\norgans of respiration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baldanders certainly uses technology to adapt himself to the water, Juturna may be likewise adapted with gills concealed by her green hair.\n\nNanomachines weren't a thing at the time of the BotNS' writing, and I don't think it fits the retro theme to invent \"new\" scientific justifications.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333045784.74461.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T18:29:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice", "in_reply_to": "<1332901974.10002.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the missing mesquite beans point to the marmots he considers hunting right after? Or, on the other hand, that they never fell and the the tree is barren? (This could go with the virus/vaccines in the mountains bit.)\n\n\n\n________________________________\n From: Marc Aramini \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:32 PM\nSubject: (urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice\n \nMountains like Mice\nThis is Gene’s first “SF” sale to Worlds of If in 1966. It is extremely unlike the previous stories in that it is much longer and there is an “adventure” element to it.\n\nSUMMARY: The story opens with Dirk being colored head to toe in a dark purple dye (like wild grapes) for his “Retreat” into the desert wilderness of his world outside the safe confines of his school. It appears as though it is something like a closed monastery or college environment, or perhaps like the Guild in the New Sun books. It is fairly clear that if he fails in Retreat, he will become a “Captive .” Avoiding capture for a set time seems to be the path to becoming a Master — yet it does not seem that it is the small gyrda which Dirk must avoid, but the larger people with whom he has safely lived his life so far. Those who fail are left as Captives, like the fat, sly man dying him, Otho. The title comes into play in the first page when Dirk thinks of his Master Theophilus talking about “the mountains like mice” — but Dirk thinks that Theophilus is thinking of stealth and disease and other things when he says it. \n\nHis education at the school seems to be mostly cause and effect rather than “facts” which are reserved for the masters. This quote is extremely important: “From the wall, a raven which had been perched with its back arrogantly toward them as it stared out over the desert suddenly launched itself thrashing into the air.” Outlined for a moment like a heraldic figure, black against the blaze of the afternoon sky, it brought to the young man a sudden personal realization of the frighteningly complex linkage between cause and effect, stimulus and response, which guides every living creature. Above all others this was the concept his instructors had droned at him daily until he had almost learned to ignore it.? Yet the raven lands on the buffoonish Otho. Masters can “control all sorts of animals; summon the hawks from the sky.” He sees Master Aleksandr enter the courtyard on a horse. Dirk vows to head right for the mountains during\n his\nretreat, primarily because the mountains harbor “the original owners of the ground”. \n\nIn the morning he is taken to begin his retreat, and Otho offers him a bottle that will supposedly counteract the dye so he can simply avoid being taken and associate with normal people before returning to the school after a few months, basically taking the easy way out. Otho disappears rather dexterously, but Dirk hears a commotion and sees a larger human in the distance being hustled off by four smaller gyrda (they may be the poor or pretty people mentioned in the text, like fairies). He thinks Otho has been taken, so he gives pursuit, following their trail up a mountain.\n\nHe comes across a man chained on a large rock on a plateau, where the man can contemplate the blue star in the sky. It turns out to be Master Aleksandr instead of Otho, and he warns him to avoid the left side of the rock, for a hamadrayad/cobra de capello lurks there to “guard” Aleksandr. They try to free him, but Dirk’s knife will not suffice, so they use the trick of Hannibal recorded in Livy: placing a bit of tree in a small hole in the rock, wetting it with crude wine or vinegar to make it expand, shattering the rock. Here Aleksandr reveals that they are on Mars — perhaps partially terraformed, but mostly inhabitable. The gyrda are the humans who have been genetically altered to acclimate and survive on Mars — poor people would volunteer to have their reproductive cells “changed” in such a fashion. It appears as though the Gyrda have captured Master Aleksandr to force him to contemplate that blue star of the Motherworld ?\n Earth,\nso that he will be impelled to work hard to return there. Earth has cut off Mars, so the super educated great-grandparents of this generation have descended into a mostly illiterate “survivor’s” culture — the gyrda seem to be roguish, but can still perform scientific feats like creating the hamadryad. Only the biological sciences have survived while the hard sciences have died out, and Aleksandr, as a master, can control the beast to some degree.\n\nHannibal’s moisturized tree branch in the rock works, and Dirk rescues Aleksandr, who allows an unconventional meeting with Master Theophilus before the end of the Retreat. There, Theophilus reveals that the “mountains as mice” saying meant that the mice are experimental animals, and the mountains have been injected with all the viruses and vaccines to see which one will result in the dominant survivor on Mars (so the Gyrda, the retreatants, and even Dirk are like those viruses and vaccines). Only the gyrda were meant to stay there forever, but the scientists and their offspring have been abandoned by Earth, so they must adapt. A second wave of altered humans that have more heart and racial affinity for the customs of Earth will be attempted, and it is revealed that if Dirk had used the dye remover Otho gave him, he would have died, as they cannot afford cheaters in positions of power, where the true knowledge of their position in the universe\nis revealed.\n\nCOMMENTARY: The concluding commentary makes it clear that Dirk is the next attempt at “colonizing” Mars ? ??The wise men who composed the gyrda left out the heart, Theophilus said slowly. “They are quick and clever with tools and more fit for Mars than men are, but they have no hearts.” Did you know, Dirk, that Aleksander’s name means “defender of men?”? And mine is “dear to God” we are descended from the Russia and the Greek contingents originally, I suppose. That was the sort of thing that was forgotten THE FIRST TIME.?\n\nThe conclusion makes it clear that THIS retreat has been Dirk's trial run, or an experiment: ??Would you accept it if the changed men were to be no less human than you are, Dirk??As the two of them were walking back to the academy, Otho chuckled. “No less human than he is himself!” Master Theophilus reminded him tartly that a fool should not speak.\nSo judging from that exchange, Dirk is the second wave of altered “humanity” engineered to live on Mars, and his trial two-fold: not to put the dye dissolver on his skin and honestly pass the “retreat” — and to have compassion on a fellow and act to save him. Whether the gyrda are being controlled by a master like Theophilus or not is unclear, but Aleksander can clearly control the hamadryad/cobra de capello with his thoughts. The allusion to mountain like mice is from a biologist’s perspective — to make a true surviving race on Mars that will still have some affinity for its human origin. Dirk is that experimental factor inserted into the system of the mountains.\n\nWhat about those “original owners” mentioned living in the Mountains? Why are the Mountains “safe” for a retreatant? \n\nALLUSIONS: I suppose I must list Burroughs Barsoom/Mars books as an influence, with that purple fellow running around on Mars instead of green or red ones , but I don’t think it is a particularly revealing or important distinction to make. Perhaps Vance works like the Planet of Adventure are similiar, but they are pretty continguous in time so I think that was just the zeitgeist of scifi at a time when stories like \"Rose for Ecclesiastes\" kind of became the \"seal of the prophets\" on the habitable Mars obsession of sci fi.\n\nLivy and Hannibal are directly mentioned, as are the meanings of names. As a result, it behooves us to look up the meanings of the names we have: Dirk, Otho, and the gyrda. The story claims the name gyrda comes from a measure of distance half the height of a man — the yard, 3 feet, or the latin gradus, 2.5 feet? Dirk means leader of the people (or it could be a dagger). Otho seems to mean wealthy. Gyrda — feminine plural for gods in Scandinavian. With their fairy-like comportment it seems that this may be an appropriate name for them. They are 1/3 the weight of Aleksandr and much shorter. They are referred to as the pretty or poor people, and this later makes sense when it is revealed that poor people volunteer their progeny and ovum for these experimental changes.\n\nPOSSIBLE AMBIGUITIES: Where there Martians before the gyrda? Is Otho really “in the know” as a master pretending to be a captive with his power over that Raven and his knowledge of Dirk’s real “humanity?”? Why did the Gyrda want Aleksandr to look at Earth — simply to spur him to want to go back there and make scientific effort towards that goal? What does it tell Dirk when there are no Mesquite beans under the Mesquite tree? That a flying animal has taken them?\n\nRELIGIOUS CONNOTATION: Almost non-existent, though perhaps Aleksander chained on the rock to look up at the blue star of earth by the gyrda is a mythic resonance with either Prometheus or Loki. The cobra, called a hamadryad, guarding him there does seem to also resonate with the Loki myths where the serpent guards him, but this serpent is kind of ineffectual. It does kill a wolf, though, to display its ferocity. The gyrda as scandinavian gods or fairies without a heart is perhaps interesting to think of, as if all this scientific meddling has brough back nature spirits that have little humanity.\n\nFUTURE ECHOES: I hate to say it, but calling a cobra de capello a hamadrayd/tree spirit certainly seems to evoke the snakelike liana vine inhumi. Also, the “right” species for a planet seems to hearken to Fifth Head of Cerberus — and a tense Mars/Earth relationship does seem to presage Operation Ares. Once again, our main character does not know that he is different from everyone else in the story, as a test run for the “new” altered human fit to live on Mars permanently. Also, the idea of looking for cause and effect as an obsessive drill seems extremely Wolfean.\n\nAlso, the wolf is pretty prevalent in this, “the high pitched howl of one of the little desert wolves, a sound he had heard often while stretched on his cot in the dormitory, seemed friendly and familiar” when he is ready to start his retreat, and later the hamadrayad eats a wolf to intimidate the prisoner of the Gyrdas." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333046156.75124.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-29T18:35:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice and the purple dye", "in_reply_to": "<1332945049.52683.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is pretty cool. It also connects the \"experiment\" to the prohibition against cheating. Having a good heart isn't just a kind of soul vs. technology thing. It's about using the technology/science in the correct manner. They want him to be honorable but they also want a real experiment. They reinforce one another.\n\nBut that brings me to the gyrda. Just not having a heart seems very...vague. It makes sense on a sentimental level, but what is it the gyrda were really missing? The Masters seem to have taught Dirk that they are \"poor\" and dirty, but that seems more to reflect their origins than their current state: after all, they still know enough about biochemistry to create the hamadrayad. They aren't simple savages. It also can't be just something against DNA modification or \"mutant science\" since the Masters are trying to create their own \"new human.\" I feel like I'm missing something about the actual difference between the two groups. Is it that they're avoiding being part of a larger humanity?\n\nI also like the touch that historical/legendary knowledge (i.e., using Livy to get out of constraints) is a different kind of science/technology. In other words, the liberal arts are useful, too. :) I assume that's part of what it means to \"have a heart\" in this world.\n\n\n\n \n\nI was driving to work and I had a DOH! moment.\n\nOf course with the dominant metaphor of Mountains Like Mice (actually it's a simile, huh?) I should have realized WHY the main character is being dyed deep purple at the beginning.\n\nMy undergraduate degree is in Biochemistry; I remember starting every invasion assay of metastasizing cells or even any cellular research with a good purple dye like crystal violet stain so that you could see the cells under the microscope.\n\nSince only the biological sciences or left, this staining begins the experiment. The simile of Mountains Like Mice really does indicate that Dirk is the experimental factor being introduced into the biological environment. \n\nSo the dye is just part of the scientific method for these cellular biologists on a macrocosmic scale. \n\nNeat, huh? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333053581.26138.YahooMailNeo@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-03-29T20:39:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bite your tongue!\n\nHis fairies strike me as somehow benevolent and uncaring at the same time, but never malicious. Their rules are rules we humans can barely see or grasp though they have been explained to us many times, much as we struggle with morality up close but recognize it only from a distance. Both these conditions seem to me to arise not from any innate source or condition but from great age/immortality and a corresponding olympian perspective.\n\n\n\n \nI'm pretty sure that Crowley's _Little, Big_ settles all these questions definitively and without ambiguity. ;)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333066670.35876.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-03-30T00:17:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice and the purple dye", "in_reply_to": "<1333046156.75124.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and KNOWING what the names actually mean instead of just having the scientific knowledge is key, so I think the totality of human knowledge is shown to be invaluable to survival. The gyrda only have the things that are obviously practical (like biological engineering) but have forgotten the reason for their names and other things, so are no longer truly human. \n\nI think your impressions are correct.\n\n--- On Thu, 3/29/12, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 5: Mountains Like Mice and the purple dye\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 11:35 AM\n\n\n\n\n\nThat is pretty cool. It also connects the \"experiment\" to the prohibition against cheating. Having a good heart isn't just a kind of soul vs. technology thing. It's about using the technology/science in the correct manner. They want him to be honorable but they also want a real experiment. They reinforce one another.\n\n\nBut that brings me to the gyrda. Just not having a heart seems very...vague. It makes sense on a sentimental level, but what is it the gyrda were really missing? The Masters seem to have taught Dirk that they are \"poor\" and dirty, but that seems more to reflect their origins than their current state: after all, they still know enough about biochemistry to create the hamadrayad. They aren't simple savages. It also can't be just something against DNA modification or \"mutant science\" since the Masters are trying to create their own \"new human.\" I feel like I'm missing something about the actual difference between the two groups. Is it that they're avoiding being part of a larger humanity?\n\n\nI also like the touch that historical/legendary knowledge (i.e., using Livy to get out of constraints) is a different kind of science/technology. In other words, the liberal arts are useful, too. :) I assume that's part of what it means to \"have a heart\" in this world." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F75D116.1050507@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-30T15:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<36657F5D1C0E40AA928985D5C2A5B42E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/29/2012 12:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson \nOn 3/29/2012 7:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n > *From:* David Stockhoff \n > > Of course it’s entirely possible and to my mind likely that Abaia, the\n > > Green Man and the Neighbours have extremely advanced technology, so\n > > advanced that it looks like magic. I speculated before that if a kiss\n > > from Juturna can make Severian capable of breathing underwater, it may\n > > well be that her saliva contains nanomachines that will remodel his\n > > organs of respiration.\n\n > Baldanders certainly uses technology to adapt himself to the water,\n > Juturna may be likewise adapted with gills concealed by her green hair.\n >\n > Nanomachines weren't a thing at the time of the BotNS' writing, and I\n > don't think it fits the retro theme to invent \"new\" scientific\n > justifications.\nI agree that Claw was written before Drexler popularised the concept of\nnanomachines, and that Wolfe would probably not have been thinking\nspecifically of them. But I think it actually is the sort of thing he\ndeliberately leaves open. I don’t believe he would imagine that Juturna\ncould do this by “magic”, even if he has not thought much about the\nspecific sort of technology she would use.\n[Of course there is also the possibility that she is lying, but I doubt it.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What/where does she mention it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-03-31T02:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F75D116.1050507@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: What/where does she mention it? [Juturna's kiss giving Severian underwater" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "breathing]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt is during their first real meeting at the end of Claw, at the river at Ctesiphon's Cross.\n\nShe doesn't say it will be a kiss that does it. But once you know of the legend of underwater\n\nbreathing conveyed by a mermaid's kiss, you pretty much have to acknowledge the allusion.\n\n \n\nJust rereading the passage and admiring (for the nth time) Wolfe's cleverness and subtelty in\n\nwriting. Severian calls her \"breathtaking\" and notices her parted lips as she anticipates \n\nSeverian joining her in the water. But Wolfe won't slap us in the face with the mermaid legend\n\nby outright mentioning the kiss. He just elbows us under the table, daring us to figure it\n\nout for ourselves (or with the help of a discussion board :- )).\n\n \n\nJuturna also mentions Baldanders a few times during the conversation and this (along with the\n\nLake Diuturna/eel connections) is supposed to be enough for a reader to connect the dots and\n\nfigure out the underwater breathing connection. Once again, I think Wolfe makes the puzzle a\n\nbit too difficult. I haven't seen the \"mermaid's kiss\" connection in any published scholarly\n\nanalysis. I think it was figured out exclusively on this board and that within the past few\n\nyears.\n\n \n\nA debate on whether \"magic\" is used seems sophomoric. The conversation with The CUmaean and\n\nMerryn warns us against falling into that trap. Magic is that which cannot be explained by \n\nscience. And hopefully none is so narrow sighted as to think that science is the only possible \n\nexplanatory mechanism that will ever be available, be it the long ago past or far future. We \n\nhappen to live now in a time period which is the Age Of Science, but it seems obvious that will \n\nnot be the case forever.Some of the limitatons of science are already starting to show.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<98517466FBA54BDBA6944938B4DD4315@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-31T18:37:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juturna also mentions Baldanders a few times during the conversation and this (along with the\nLake Diuturna/eel connections) is supposed to be enough for a reader to connect the dots and\nfigure out the underwater breathing connection. Once again, I think Wolfe makes the puzzle a\nbit too difficult. I haven't seen the \"mermaid's kiss\" connection in any published scholarly\nanalysis. I think it was figured out exclusively on this board and that within the past few\nyears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see any mystery about an “underwater breathing connection”. Juturna says out straight that Baldanders will eventually have to enter the water: presumably by the time he does, he will have arrange some way to respire. Talos makes a reference to it somewhere too. And of course we have seen mysterious “scars” on his neck, so the obvious interpretation is that he has already fitted himself with gills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A debate on whether \"magic\" is used seems sophomoric. The conversation with The CUmaean and\nMerryn warns us against falling into that trap. Magic is that which cannot be explained by \nscience. And hopefully none is so narrow sighted as to think that science is the only possible \nexplanatory mechanism that will ever be available, be it the long ago past or far future. We \nhappen to live now in a time period which is the Age Of Science, but it seems obvious that will \nnot be the case forever.Some of the limitatons of science are already starting to show." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is not at all what the conversation implies. First Merryn points out that there is no magic, only technology. The Cumaean then states that words are symbols, and either word might refer to the same thing. But everywhere in this sequence it is made clear to us that advanced technology or scientific understanding are the basis for events. Both the glamour placed on Jolenta and the raising of Apu-Punchau are described in such terms.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F775868.7040108@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-03-31T19:18:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<98517466FBA54BDBA6944938B4DD4315@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/31/2012 1:37 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThat is not at all what the conversation implies. First Merryn points\nout that there is no magic, only technology. The Cumaean then states\nthat words are symbols, and either word might refer to the same thing.\nBut everywhere in this sequence it is made clear to us that advanced\ntechnology or scientific understanding are the basis for events. Both\nthe glamour placed on Jolenta and the raising of Apu-Punchau are\ndescribed in such terms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see Apu-Punchau as an aquastor conjured by the Cumaean's pocket \neidolator, but what about his career as a vivimancer? How do the dead \nconfer without benefit of the Cumaean's assistance?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<09FE226FD38B4C8C8BD1CC93E9CDA9F2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-03-31T20:00:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F775868.7040108@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/31/2012 1:37 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThat is not at all what the conversation implies. First Merryn points\nout that there is no magic, only technology. The Cumaean then states\nthat words are symbols, and either word might refer to the same thing.\nBut everywhere in this sequence it is made clear to us that advanced\ntechnology or scientific understanding are the basis for events. Both\nthe glamour placed on Jolenta and the raising of Apu-Punchau are\ndescribed in such terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see Apu-Punchau as an aquastor conjured by the Cumaean's pocket \neidolator, but what about his career as a vivimancer? How do the dead \nconfer without benefit of the Cumaean's assistance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you elaborate? I don’t really understand what you’re referring to.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F77A7E2.5050607@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-01T00:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<09FE226FD38B4C8C8BD1CC93E9CDA9F2@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/31/2012 3:00 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson \n**\nOn 3/31/2012 1:37 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n > > That is not at all what the conversation implies. First Merryn points\n > > out that there is no magic, only technology. The Cumaean then states\n > > that words are symbols, and either word might refer to the same thing.\n > > But everywhere in this sequence it is made clear to us that advanced\n > > technology or scientific understanding are the basis for events. Both\n > > the glamour placed on Jolenta and the raising of Apu-Punchau are\n > > described in such terms.\n\n > I can see Apu-Punchau as an aquastor conjured by the Cumaean's pocket\n > eidolator, but what about his career as a vivimancer? How do the dead\n > confer without benefit of the Cumaean's assistance?\nCan you elaborate? I don’t really understand what you’re referring to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Supposedly, Apu-Punchau is a necromancer in reverse; he traffics with \nthe living on behalf of the other dead people." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-01T03:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F77A7E2.5050607@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Supposedly, Apu-Punchau is a necromancer in reverse; he " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "traffics with the living on behalf of the other dead people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And isn't Apu PUnchau really Severian (one of him, anyway)? Severian\n\nis raising the dead, travelling through time, causing storms and \n\nearthquakes and all by channelling the energy of a star through his\n\npuny human cellular structures. Severian is a god and he is using magic, \n\nloathe though Gerry is to admit it. There is no way he can do what he does \n\nusing what we define as science, i.e. physics, chemistry etc.\n\n \n\nHeck, if you believe a human cell can channel stellar level energies\n\nwithout harm, what else would you believe? That inhumi can travel\n\nunassisted through the void? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<26850D591F9C4502BE92894DFEA9D9A1@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-01T10:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F77A7E2.5050607@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/31/2012 3:00 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson mailto:jwilson at clueland.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " > I can see Apu-Punchau as an aquastor conjured by the Cumaean's pocket\n > eidolator, but what about his career as a vivimancer? How do the dead\n > confer without benefit of the Cumaean's assistance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you elaborate? I don’t really understand what you’re referring to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Supposedly, Apu-Punchau is a necromancer in reverse; he traffics with \nthe living on behalf of the other dead people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think maybe he could have some time travel ability that allows him to contact individuals outside his nominal timeframe? Some sort of negentropic effect from a white hole might allow that.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-01T10:25:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't Apu PUnchau really Severian (one of him, anyway)? Severian\nis raising the dead, travelling through time, causing storms and \nearthquakes and all by channelling the energy of a star through his\npuny human cellular structures. Severian is a god and he is using magic, \nloathe though Gerry is to admit it. There is no way he can do what he does \nusing what we define as science, i.e. physics, chemistry etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But clearly the physics understood by the Dawn Men is rather limited compared to that which will be understood by Severian’s time. Urth is full of clearly technological wonders that a Dawn Man might mistake for magic. Severian does indeed have almost godlike powers through his psychic connection to the White Fountain, but the book makes it clear that future super-technology rather than magic is involved. Even if that super-technology involves abilities we don’t currently think exist. (Conversely, in the world of the Wizard Knight, it’s magic, not technology, that lies at the toot of all things.)\n\n(Also, it may not necessarily be correct to assume Severian ever — during the time we know him - has a puny human cellular structure. I don’t think that’s important to the story, it’s just another “out” if you object to the idea. Wolfe avoids specifics and allows ambiguities in order to allow such outs. Unfortunately some readers use these ambiguities as an excuse to write their own book, with new characters and never described events.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, if you believe a human cell can channel stellar level energies\nwithout harm, what else would you believe? That inhumi can travel\nunassisted through the void? ;- ) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that is exactly how we are intended to understand the story. As I’ve said before, Wolfe plays fast and loose with what is actually possible, although he likes to pretend otherwise. If some technology or phenomenon is not clearly in-your-face logically impossible, and he needs it, then he’ll use it.\n\nAll but the hardest SF is about technological verisimilitude, not technological realism.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7849D3.7080109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-01T12:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 3/31/2012 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Supposedly, Apu-Punchau is a necromancer in reverse; he\ntraffics with the living on behalf of the other dead people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't Apu PUnchau really Severian (one of him, anyway)? Severian\n\nis raising the dead, travelling through time, causing storms and\n\nearthquakes and all by channelling the energy of a star through his\n\npuny human cellular structures. Severian is a god and he is using magic,\n\nloathe though Gerry is to admit it. There is no way he can do what he does\n\nusing what we define as science, i.e. physics, chemistry etc.\n\n\n\nHeck, if you believe a human cell can channel stellar level energies\n\nwithout harm, what else would you believe? That inhumi can travel\n\nunassisted through the void? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the only significant distinction in Severian's universes between \none form of \"power\" and another (beyond whether it's known or unknown to \nus, known or unknown to Severian, known or unknown to FOB, etc.) is \nwhether it is drawn from the Increate or not. I get no sense that it \ncomes from the ground, or the air, or water, or from words or crystals \nor creatures of moral purity or talking trees. \"Godly\" therefore can \nmean either technological or \"immaterial\" (i.e., from a higher universe).\n\nWhich?\n\nThe existence of Yesod muddies this a bit, but it seems plain to me that \nthe whole \"big idea\" of Briah is that gods form themselves and rise up \nfrom matter and technology, not from magic; nor are they molded by a \nCreator (except as they form one another). Unless the Increate is \ninvolved, it's all matter and recognizable physical laws.\n\nOne could make a general case that the physical laws of Briah are a bit \nrelaxed compared with our own. Or one could call it SF, or SF with a \nlayer of \"fantasy\" (i.e., paganism). Either way, it only /looks /like magic." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F78D13C.90408@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-01T22:05:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/31/2012 10:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Supposedly, Apu-Punchau is a necromancer in reverse; he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "traffics with the living on behalf of the other dead people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't Apu PUnchau really Severian (one of him, anyway)? Severian\n\nis raising the dead, travelling through time, causing storms and\n\nearthquakes and all by channelling the energy of a star through his\n\npuny human cellular structures. Severian is a god and he is using magic,\n\nloathe though Gerry is to admit it. There is no way he can do what he does\n\nusing what we define as science, i.e. physics, chemistry etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that the yet more powerful gods from Yesod do all he can and \nmore, and they cop to being material beings living in a technological \nworld, then proceed to show the evidence.\n\nI think the Book supports both interpretations: dualism and a kind of \ntranscendentalism or continuism; mortal instrumentality advances and \neventually sublimes, doubling back or circulating through time and \nappearing magical. Teilhard for the win!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T13:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F78D13C.90408@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But clearly the physics understood by the Dawn Men is \nrather limited compared to that which will be understood by Severian’s \ntime. Severian does indeed have almost godlike powers through his \npsychic connection to the White Fountain, but the book makes it clear that \nfuture super-technology rather than magic is involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think we are dealing with problems in regard to the definition of the\nword \"magic\". There is the meaning which refers to pure illusion and \ntrickery. This is addressed in BotNS as in the Holy Katharine beheading\nand some of the stuff the jungle sorcerers do.\n\nThere is the meaning referring to the kind of magic Gandalf does. Fictional\nstuff which doesn't really exist and needn't have any substantial explanation.\nBotNS might address this in some of its internal stories and legends.\n \nGerry your post suggests that you distinguish \"future super-technology\" from\nmagic. Can you explain the difference?\n \nLet's say you were, like Wolfe, a believer in God and His power and the super-\nhuman power of his angelic servants. What would you call that power?\n \nAtheists often derrogate God's power by referring to it as \"magic\" and I think\nmost Christians would be offended by the word. Perhaps \"supernatural\" power is\nbetter? I suppose \"divine\" might be the most acceptable.\n \nI actually think \"superhuman\" is the better term for our purpose here. Godly \npower is defined as that which is beyond the understanding (and use) of regular, \nmortal humans. I think part of the point of the Sun Series is that while all\nthe various definitions of magic exist, there is more overlap and confusion \nbetween them than we might think.\n \nSeverian is a human character. Wolfe takes pains to make the reader know he\ndoes not understand his own power. He also takes the otherwise unecessary step\nof explaining that Tzadkiel is not capable of Severian's healing power. Moreover\nTzadkiel seems to need mechanical technology to accomplish time travel while\nSeverian does not.\n \nTherefore, as I see it, Severian does not have \"god-like\" powers, implying they\nwould lose their mystery if we only knew the trick. Since even a higher being \nlike Tzadkiel does not fully understand Severian's power, we humans never, ever\ncould. I think we are meant to understand that Severian is using divine, godly \npower and is, thus an aspect of God (the Outsider) as Wolfe has stated.\n \nI agree with David Stockhoff's assessment that godly beings have a hand in their\nown creation in BotNS. But I see this as Wolfe's extrapolation of the principle\nthat God created man in His own image. If God is alpha and omega it makes a sort\nof circular logic that Man created God in his own image.\n \nBut in BotNS there are higher (and lower) intermediary beings between Man and God.\nThere is \"dark magic\" and \"divine power\" which is not available to humans, just\nas the science and technology we use is not fully available to these other beings\nespecially those more distant from us on the continuum. I suppose Wizard/Knight \naddresses this more clearly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I think the Book supports both interpretations: dualism and a kind of \ntranscendentalism or continuism; mortal instrumentality advances and \neventually sublimes, doubling back or circulating through time and appearing magical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think I agree with Jeff, though again, I'm not fully sure what definition of magic\nhe is using here. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79B092.4040508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T13:58:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 9:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI agree with David Stockhoff's assessment that godly beings have a hand in their\nown creation in BotNS. But I see this as Wolfe's extrapolation of the principle\nthat God created man in His own image. If God is alpha and omega it makes a sort\nof circular logic that Man created God in his own image." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly irrelevantly, I have my own ideas about that word \"create.\" I \ndon't think Wolfe believes God created Man at all, but rather that he \nbrought about human evolution by the very sort of invisible, \nincremental, independent forces that are dramatized in BTNS and \nclarified in UTNS. He is the Increate---the only uncreated being---not \nthe Creator. He does nothing but /be, /and matter is attracted to him, \ninevitably organizing itself in his image." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T14:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79B092.4040508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a certain plausibility to your suggestion, David. I too have\nsometimes wondered about what seemed a lack of emphasis on God as Creator\nin Wolfe. But he does work it in there at times, sometimes rather overtly\nand powerfully:\n\n'But \neverything\n had \napproached\n and \neven\n touched \nthe\n *Pancreator*\n, because \neverything\n had \ndropped\n from \nhis\n hand .\nEverything\nwas a\nrelic\n. All \nthe\n world \nwas\n a relic .'\n\nThe Increate is not the only divine name in Wolfe...\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/2/2012 9:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with David Stockhoff's assessment that godly beings have a hand\nin their\nown creation in BotNS. But I see this as Wolfe's extrapolation of the\nprinciple\nthat God created man in His own image. If God is alpha and omega it makes\na sort\nof circular logic that Man created God in his own image." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly irrelevantly, I have my own ideas about that word \"create.\" I\ndon't think Wolfe believes God created Man at all, but rather that he\nbrought about human evolution by the very sort of invisible, incremental,\nindependent forces that are dramatized in BTNS and clarified in UTNS. He is\nthe Increate---the only uncreated being---not the Creator. He does nothing\nbut /be, /and matter is attracted to him, inevitably organizing itself in\nhis image.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79C4F2.9050209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T15:25:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. That term occurs in embedded stories rather than in Severian's \nmouth at least half the time, which has led me to consider it a kind of \nsecondary belief, i.e., perhaps folkloric. Note that in your quote \nSeverian sees the Pancreator with a hand, unlike the Increate, so it is \nin a way a specifically human understanding or extension of the \nIncreate's being. As such it must fall short.\n\nSometimes when the term appears it suggests the Stoic-influenced \ninterpretation of Genesis: \"Surely the Pancreator knows all mysteries. \nHe spoke the long word that is our universe . . . \" My point here is \nthat this is only one interpretation, one philosophic (or sophist) \napproach, and therefore a kind of sub-story.\n\nWhich is not to dismiss it. The Pancreator seems to be the Increate \ncaught in the act of creating. But what exactly he directly created \nbeyond \"our universe\" is unclear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 10:33 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nThere's a certain plausibility to your suggestion, David. I too have \nsometimes wondered about what seemed a lack of emphasis on God as \nCreator in Wolfe. But he does work it in there at times, sometimes \nrather overtly and powerfully:\n\n'But \neverything \nhad \napproached \nand \n even \ntouched \nthe \n*Pancreator* , \nbecause \neverything \nhad \ndropped \nfrom \nhis \nhand \n. \nEverything \nwas \n a relic \n. All \nthe \nworld \nwas \n a relic \n.'\n\nThe Increate is not the only divine name in Wolfe...\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:58 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n On 4/2/2012 9:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n I agree with David Stockhoff's assessment that godly beings\n have a hand in their\n own creation in BotNS. But I see this as Wolfe's extrapolation\n of the principle\n that God created man in His own image. If God is alpha and\n omega it makes a sort\n of circular logic that Man created God in his own image.\n\n\n Possibly irrelevantly, I have my own ideas about that word\n \"create.\" I don't think Wolfe believes God created Man at all, but\n rather that he brought about human evolution by the very sort of\n invisible, incremental, independent forces that are dramatized in\n BTNS and clarified in UTNS. He is the Increate---the only\n uncreated being---not the Creator. He does nothing but /be, /and\n matter is attracted to him, inevitably organizing itself in his\n image.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T16:59:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79C4F2.9050209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: That term [Pancreator] occurs in embedded stories \nrather than in Severian's mouth at least half the time, which has \nled me to consider it a kind of secondary belief, i.e., perhaps \nfolkloric. Note that in your quote Severian sees the Pancreator with \na hand, unlike the Increate, so it is in a way a specifically human \nunderstanding or extension of the Increate's being. As such it must \nfall short." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUnless...going back to previous discussions, unless the text is viewed\nfrom a gnostic point of view in which there is a creative demiurge who\nis at least partially distinct from the true, Christian God. Perhaps\nthis is the reason Wolfe uses both the terms \"Increate\" and \"Pancreator\".\nI think a writer trying to convey the modern monistic Christian view of \nGod would use only \"the Increate\".\n \nMaybe it would be possible to argue it from the Catholic point of view:\nthat Pancreator, Theanthropos and Increate correspond to Father, Son and \nHoly Spirit. But as James has noted, though the Sun Series shows glimpses\nof Christian symbology, it is far more explicitly a pagan/gnostic sort of\nuniverse being depicted, full of gods, monsters, witches, vampires and\npagan rites.\n \nI like David's observation that The Pancreator is largely presented in a\nfolkloric context in BotNS. For me this corresponds to the gnostic earthly \nbelief in a Dionysian possibly Satanic creative demiurge, stories of whom\nare highly folkloric in today's world. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E08C.1000606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:23:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/2/2012 12:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: That term [Pancreator] occurs in embedded stories\nrather than in Severian's mouth at least half the time, which has\nled me to consider it a kind of secondary belief, i.e., perhaps\nfolkloric. Note that in your quote Severian sees the Pancreator with\na hand, unlike the Increate, so it is in a way a specifically human\nunderstanding or extension of the Increate's being. As such it must\nfall short." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless...going back to previous discussions, unless the text is viewed\nfrom a gnostic point of view in which there is a creative demiurge who\nis at least partially distinct from the true, Christian God. Perhaps\nthis is the reason Wolfe uses both the terms \"Increate\" and \"Pancreator\".\nI think a writer trying to convey the modern monistic Christian view of\nGod would use only \"the Increate\".\n\nMaybe it would be possible to argue it from the Catholic point of view:\nthat Pancreator, Theanthropos and Increate correspond to Father, Son and\nHoly Spirit. But as James has noted, though the Sun Series shows glimpses\nof Christian symbology, it is far more explicitly a pagan/gnostic sort of\nuniverse being depicted, full of gods, monsters, witches, vampires and\npagan rites.\n\nI like David's observation that The Pancreator is largely presented in a\nfolkloric context in BotNS. For me this corresponds to the gnostic earthly\nbelief in a Dionysian possibly Satanic creative demiurge, stories of whom\nare highly folkloric in today's world. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly my thought(s). BTNS seems soaked in Hellenistic philosophy. I wanted to be cautious on the gnostic aspect here, but it's not far off.\n\nI've wondered if Severian's account owes any debt to the memoirs of \nMarcus Aurelius, which I've never read. Has anyone here?\n\nI" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333387850.6818.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:30:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79E08C.1000606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/2/12, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nExactly my thought(s). BTNS seems soaked in Hellenistic\nphilosophy. I wanted to be cautious on the gnostic aspect\nhere, but it's not far off.\n\nI've wondered if Severian's account owes any debt to the\nmemoirs of \nMarcus Aurelius, which I've never read. Has anyone here?\n\nI" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A while ago. eh, they are quoted sometimes directly in the Chrasmological Writings so I'm sure Wolfe has read them, but I don't think they relate much to the actual cosmology of New Sun except insofar as all ancient epistemology might contribute to it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E318.5000106@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:34:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 8:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think I agree with Jeff, though again, I'm not fully sure what definition of magic\nhe is using here. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Off the cuff, I'd say magic is characterized as an agency that is \nsimilar to divine power except that it can be made to do a mortal's \nbidding. Magic can be couched in material vessels like charms, fetishes, \nor talking fish, but has the capacity to do what the the invoker \nsubjectively means to do rather than what the material vessels would \notherwise do as judged by objective observers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333388143.27734.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:35:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1333387850.6818.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "on second thought, maybe some of the thoughts about \"obeying\" and duty and order in Severian's philosophy, but I just don't think it is definitely an outgrowth of Aurelius, but the practical application of a far more dualistic, top heavy philosophy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Marc Aramini wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Fairies and Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, April 2, 2012, 10:30 AM\n\n\n--- On Mon, 4/2/12, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly my thought(s). BTNS seems soaked in\nHellenistic\nphilosophy. I wanted to be cautious on the gnostic\naspect\nhere, but it's not far off.\n\nI've wondered if Severian's account owes any debt to\nthe\nmemoirs of \nMarcus Aurelius, which I've never read. Has anyone\nhere?\n\nI" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A while ago. eh, they are quoted sometimes directly in\nthe Chrasmological Writings so I'm sure Wolfe has read them,\nbut I don't think they relate much to the actual cosmology\nof New Sun except insofar as all ancient epistemology might\ncontribute to it.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E4FE.1000403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:42:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1333387850.6818.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 1:30 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Mon, 4/2/12, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly my thought(s). BTNS seems soaked in Hellenistic\nphilosophy. I wanted to be cautious on the gnostic aspect\nhere, but it's not far off.\n\nI've wondered if Severian's account owes any debt to the\nmemoirs of\nMarcus Aurelius, which I've never read. Has anyone here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A while ago. eh, they are quoted sometimes directly in the Chrasmological Writings so I'm sure Wolfe has read them, but I don't think they relate much to the actual cosmology of New Sun except insofar as all ancient epistemology might contribute to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OTOH, epistemology is practically what BTNS is about. But I wondered if \nwe might find Aurelius's personality familiar.\n\nJust downloaded it---will read it soon!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E55C.9090209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:43:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1333388143.27734.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 1:35 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\non second thought, maybe some of the thoughts about \"obeying\" and duty and order in Severian's philosophy, but I just don't think it is definitely an outgrowth of Aurelius, but the practical application of a far more dualistic, top heavy philosophy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aha!\n\nBoth he and Severian were, after all, emperors." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E615.30104@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:47:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79C4F2.9050209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 10:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTrue. That term occurs in embedded stories rather than in Severian's\nmouth at least half the time, which has led me to consider it a kind of\nsecondary belief, i.e., perhaps folkloric. Note that in your quote\nSeverian sees the Pancreator with a hand, unlike the Increate, so it is\nin a way a specifically human understanding or extension of the\nIncreate's being. As such it must fall short." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, it's the Trinity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F79E859.2030606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T17:56:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79E615.30104@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 1:47 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/2/2012 10:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True. That term occurs in embedded stories rather than in Severian's\nmouth at least half the time, which has led me to consider it a kind of\nsecondary belief, i.e., perhaps folkloric. Note that in your quote\nSeverian sees the Pancreator with a hand, unlike the Increate, so it is\nin a way a specifically human understanding or extension of the\nIncreate's being. As such it must fall short." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dude, it's the Trinity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ssh!\n\nOnly if the Trinity exists in this universe, which is not something I \nwanted to bring up. If it does, it does not seem to be recognized as \nsuch, or else Wolfe simply does not want to beat us over the head with \nit. At any rate, all attempts to understand God are just that, whether \nmore imperfect or less." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T19:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F79E859.2030606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Off the cuff, I'd say magic is characterized as an agency that \nis similar to divine power except that it can be made to do a mortal's \nbidding. Magic can be couched in material vessels like charms, fetishes, \nor talking fish, but has the capacity to do what the the invoker \nsubjectively means to do rather than what the material vessels would \notherwise do as judged by objective observers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTo play devil's (heh) advocate, I don't then see the distinction between magic \nand divine power. It seems like Moses drawing water from a desert stone or \nJesus feeding the masses or walking on water would be forms of magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dude, it's the Trinity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt might be a trinity but I'm not sure it's The Trinity. There were divine\ntrinities in religious belief before Jesus was born. Most pertinent being\nthe one involving Dionysus.\n \nDiscussions of the Trinity here have focused on the Long/Short Sun books. But\nmy own feeling is that the same pre-Christian trinity concept is invoked in\nBotNS through Father Inire. As I see it, both his role and his names imply it. \n \nHis role as creator and caretaker of the Commonwealth could be tied to his role\nas Pancreator (it is suggested that he might play a similar role for the Ascians).\nThe \"Father\" part is manifested in his implied role as Severian's (the Son, the \nTheanthropos) ancestor. And the \"Inire\" name connection can be traced through Pan \nto Dionysus.\n \nI continue to acknowledge that my Father Inire theory is idiosyncratic and \nindividualized. But for me the various pieces keep fitting together too well to \ndiscard it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20120402215204.XGOF5450.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2012-04-02T21:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anybody notice the plug for our man on Fringe last Friday?\n\nI wondered why Lake of the Long Sun. After all, Fringe is about \nrewriting reality, and I should think the Severian quintet would make \nmore sense. Hmmmm.\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T22:50:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, April 2, 2012 14:08, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Off the cuff, I'd say magic is characterized as an agency\nthat\nis similar to divine power except that it can be made to do a mortal's\nbidding. Magic can be couched in material vessels like charms, fetishes,\nor talking fish, but has the capacity to do what the the invoker\nsubjectively means to do rather than what the material vessels would\notherwise do as judged by objective observers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To play devil's (heh) advocate, I don't then see the distinction between\nmagic\nand divine power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"except that it can be made to do a mortal's bidding\"\n\nMoses uses magic when he strikes the rock in defiance of G-d's command.\nThe events that conspire to keep Jonah from shirking his visit to Nineveh\nare manifested of divine power." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7A352C.1080400@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-02T23:24:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<20120402215204.XGOF5450.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 4:52 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAnybody notice the plug for our man on /Fringe/ last Friday?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The other Jordan posted about it last night..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2012-04-03T03:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn Mon, April 2, 2012 14:08, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Off the cuff, I'd say magic is characterized as an agency\nthat\nis similar to divine power except that it can be made to do a mortal's\nbidding. Magic can be couched in material vessels like charms, fetishes,\nor talking fish, but has the capacity to do what the the invoker\nsubjectively means to do rather than what the material vessels would\notherwise do as judged by objective observers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To play devil's (heh) advocate, I don't then see the distinction between\nmagic\nand divine power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"except that it can be made to do a mortal's bidding\"\n\nMoses uses magic when he strikes the rock in defiance of G-d's command.\nThe events that conspire to keep Jonah from shirking his visit to Nineveh\nare manifested of divine power.\n\n\nI once had a teacher who told us that prayer was supplication to divine\npower, but magic was like grabbing the intestines of the forces of the\nuniverse (gods? spirits?) and twisting until they did our bidding." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T13:50:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7A352C.1080400@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stopped watching Fringe a few episodes into season 4 ... is it still good?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/2/2012 4:52 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anybody notice the plug for our man on /Fringe/ last Friday?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other Jordan posted about it last night...\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T17:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Moses uses magic when he strikes the rock in defiance \nof G-d's command." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my opinion, \"defiance\" is an overly strong word. IIRC, Moses had\nbeen ordered to strike the rock in the past to get water and it worked.\nThis time he was supposed to speak to the rock but instead he struck it,\nas before, twice and got a nice gusher to flow. For this offense, God\nmakes his long-suffering servant die in the desert, barred from the \nPromised Land. As I 've suggested before, the OT God seems a bit \ndifferent from the NT God. Not very forgiving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson: I once had a teacher who told us that prayer was \nsupplication to divine power, but magic was like grabbing the \nintestines of the forces of the universe (gods? spirits?) and twisting \nuntil they did our bidding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think Jeff and Allan present a pretty consistent definition of\nthe difference between divine power and magic. I assume this means\nSeverian is mostly using divine power?\n \nI wonder what it means to take Gerry's position- that Severian is using\nscience and technology. Is it possible that some uses of technology are \na form of divine power while others are akin to magic, i.e. performed for \nselfish human wants? Scary. (how many SF Holy Atomic Bombs have been \ncreated...how many real ones?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<56910D05C1844D579652A98ED0E236FF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T18:06:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder what it means to take Gerry's position- that Severian is using\nscience and technology. Is it possible that some uses of technology are \na form of divine power while others are akin to magic, i.e. performed for \nselfish human wants? Scary. (how many SF Holy Atomic Bombs have been \ncreated...how many real ones?) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never said Severian is using science and technology. What I am arguing is that whatever Severian is doing is understood by the Hieros (though not by Severian) in terms of their science.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T18:06:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nIs it possible that some uses of technology are\na form of divine power" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I call your attention again to the Cathedral of the Pelerines. All\npower is ultimately divine power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "while others are akin to magic, i.e. performed for\nselfish human wants?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20120403183747.GYME5450.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2012-04-03T18:37:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, somebody's reading Wolfe! That's a plus.\n\nI'm myself wondering if they have it planned out, as they did LOST. \nThe scenario has become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back together.\n\nnutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:50 AM 4/3/2012, you wrote:\nI stopped watching Fringe a few episodes into season 4 ... is it still good?\n\nOn Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeff Wilson \n<jwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 4/2/2012 4:52 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAnybody notice the plug for our man on /Fringe/ last Friday?\n\n\nThe other Jordan posted about it last night...\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T18:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<20120403183747.GYME5450.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do read significantly more than I watch TV shows these days, so I guess\nthat is a good thing? When I left off, it was hinted at that in the\nPeter-less world, Nina Sharp was a bad guy of some kind, and possibly\nbehind the \"new\" shapeshifters. I was really hoping for them to up the\nante a bit; recycling old characters in new roles seemed kind of lame. But\nit might have all been misdirection. I might pick the series back up;\nwe'll see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:37 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\n Well, somebody's reading Wolfe! That's a plus.\n\nI'm myself wondering if they have it planned out, as they did LOST. The\nscenario has become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back together.\n\nnutria\n\n\n\nAt 08:50 AM 4/3/2012, you wrote:\n\nI stopped watching Fringe a few episodes into season 4 ... is it still\ngood?\n\nOn Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 4/2/2012 4:52 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\n Anybody notice the plug for our man on /Fringe/ last Friday?\n\n\nThe other Jordan posted about it last night...\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T19:27:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I never said Severian is using science and technology. \nWhat I am arguing is that whatever Severian is doing is understood \nby the Hieros (though not by Severian) in terms of their science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I see. I'd generally agree with that. Still at the end of UotNS,\nB, F (and O?) prostrate themselves to Severian to recognize his \nresurrection power is beyond that of Tzadkiel's. Moreover, Tzadkiel\nhas been an accolyte to Severian, implying I think, that there is a\ndivine aspect to Severian's power to which even Hierogrammates must \nshow adoration and humble worship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I call your attention again to the Cathedral of the \nPelerines. All power is ultimately divine power..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "while others are akin to magic, i.e. performed for\nselfish human wants?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this jibes with Wolfe's stated philosophy that evil must be \nrecognized, always, as a distortion or exaggeration of good. (like\nLucifer as former angel, orcs as twisted elves, etc.). God can only\ncreate good, right?\n \nYet God/The Increate forsees all distortions and ultimately turns them\nto serve His Plan. I still think such an omniscient, omnipotent God \ndoesn't jibe with the jealous, angry, vengeful God of the OT. How can\nyou be angry at something that you knew would happen and, ultimately\nyou set in motion?\n \nFor me, either the OT God is different or the people reporting on Him\nwere different than modern Christian theologians. Perhaps both? Anyway,\nI still think, despite their technological superiority, the people in\nSun Series (and perhaps The Outsider) are portrayed as less spiritually \nadvanced than modern earthly Christians and their God.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7B5459.3020100@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T19:49:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 12:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Moses uses magic when he strikes the rock in defiance\nof G-d's command." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my opinion, \"defiance\" is an overly strong word. IIRC, Moses had\nbeen ordered to strike the rock in the past to get water and it worked.\nThis time he was supposed to speak to the rock but instead he struck it,\nas before, twice and got a nice gusher to flow. For this offense, God\nmakes his long-suffering servant die in the desert, barred from the\nPromised Land. As I 've suggested before, the OT God seems a bit\ndifferent from the NT God. Not very forgiving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But He keeps giving Jonah second chances to deliver judgment to Nineveh. \nPerhaps G-d has higher expectations for Moses, arguably the most \naccomplished and best educated man in his world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder what it means to take Gerry's position- that Severian is using\nscience and technology. Is it possible that some uses of technology are\na form of divine power while others are akin to magic, i.e. performed for\nselfish human wants? Scary. (how many SF Holy Atomic Bombs have been\ncreated...how many real ones?) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not all one or the other. If divine power creates the universe and \ncontrols the destiny of its contents, as Severian is convinced, then \nthen both magical and material forces are creations of divine power, and \ndivine Providence gifts Joseph and Severian and Decuman with their \nmental powers, even if those psychic gifts work in ways ultimately \nexplainable by science.\n\n(I don't particularly think psychic powers are compatible with \nmaterialist science, but since John W. Campbell did, and was willing to \npay good money for stories that supported that view, we're kind of stuck \nwith them as part of the classic SF tool kit that BotNS relies on, right \nalongside the V2-style interplanetary rockets and the giant robots. )" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T19:51:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nFor me, either the OT God is different or the people reporting on Him\nwere different than modern Christian theologians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Decidedly the latter." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7B5CC5.8050800@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T20:25:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<20120403183747.GYME5450.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 1:37 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nWell, somebody's reading Wolfe! That's a plus.\n\nI'm myself wondering if they have it planned out, as they did LOST. The\nscenario has become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back together." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated numerous \nstatements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<377EF263A5A949359AAB0A66E4FF2A82@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T20:35:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7B5CC5.8050800@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/3/2012 1:37 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nI'm myself wondering if they have it planned out, as they did LOST. The\nscenario has become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated numerous \nstatements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Battlestar Galactica... at least they planned that one, right?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7B7769.3040207@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T22:19:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<377EF263A5A949359AAB0A66E4FF2A82@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 3:35 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jeff Wilson \nOn 4/3/2012 1:37 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\n\n > > I'm myself wondering if they have it planned out, as they did LOST. The\n > > scenario has become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back\ntogether.\n\n > Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated numerous\n > statements the producers made in earlier seasons.\nBut Battlestar Galactica... at least they planned that one, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Grrr... At least George Lucas could say \"Darth Vader\" is Low German for \n\"dark father\".\n\nBabylon 5 had a real plan for a 5 season arc, even though the \"I have \nevery episode outlined and the first season written\" turned out to be a fib." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T22:36:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7B7769.3040207@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nGrrr... ?At least George Lucas could say \"Darth Vader\" is Low German for\n\"dark father\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which was the last bit of artistic integrity he ever showed..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Babylon 5 had a real plan for a 5 season arc, even though the \"I have every\nepisode outlined and the first season written\" turned out to be a fib." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did he claim this? I recall Straczynski claiming that he had each\nseason outlined as an arc, and he _did_ write seasons 3 and 4 all by\nhimself, but I don't recall claims like what you state above. I think\nhe fibbed much more when he claimed that the story came out the way he\nwanted -- it's pretty obvious that the ending of the story was\noriginally to be Sinclair turning into Valen, for example, or that\nTalia Winters was to fill the role that Lyta Alexander eventually\nfilled. He was quite adept at making the story flex to fit changes in\nthe cast.\n\nBut that's another story..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1333493263.20524.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-03T22:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<377EF263A5A949359AAB0A66E4FF2A82@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't reopen old wounds.\n\n\n\n \n\n?\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n?On " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4/3/2012 1:37 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nI'm myself wondering \nif they have it planned out, as they did LOST. The\nscenario has " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "become so complex I wonder if they can pull it back together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Er, \nthey did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated numerous \nstatements " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the producers made in earlier seasons. \n\nBut \nBattlestar Galactica... at least they planned that one, right?\n\n- \nGerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7B7E84.3070108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-03T22:49:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairies and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7B5459.3020100@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 3:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n(I don't particularly think psychic powers are compatible with \nmaterialist science, but since John W. Campbell did, and was willing \nto pay good money for stories that supported that view, we're kind of \nstuck with them as part of the classic SF tool kit that BotNS relies \non, right alongside the V2-style interplanetary rockets and the giant \nrobots. ) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So THAT'S who I should blame. Curses upon you, Mr Campbell!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7BA4D0.4020005@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T01:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 5:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Babylon 5 had a real plan for a 5 season arc, even though the \"I have every\nepisode outlined and the first season written\" turned out to be a fib." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When did he claim this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Sci-Fi channel's SCI-FI BUZZ show, late one Sunday night earlier the \nyear it premiered. Later complaints by JMS and accounts of writing for \nhim by another writer did not bear this out." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "gregory.a.bates at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T03:36:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7BA4D0.4020005@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know the Battlestar Galactica comment was a joke, but Ron Moore is one of\nthe most up-front showrunners i've ever seen when it comes to admitting\nhe's making things up as he goes along. The S1 DVDs mention that the\noriginal plan for the first season's finale was going to involve Katee\nSackoff's Starbuck meeting Richard Hatch, who tells her he's God. I don't\nwant to live in the alternate universe where BSG went down THAT path..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/3/2012 5:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Babylon 5 had a real plan for a 5 season arc, even though the \"I have\nevery\nepisode outlined and the first season written\" turned out to be a fib." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When did he claim this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Sci-Fi channel's SCI-FI BUZZ show, late one Sunday night earlier the\nyear it premiered. Later complaints by JMS and accounts of writing for him\nby another writer did not bear this out.\n\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7BC651.9060808@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T03:56:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 10:36 PM, Greg Bates wrote:\nI know the Battlestar Galactica comment was a joke, but Ron Moore is one\nof the most up-front showrunners i've ever seen when it comes to\nadmitting he's making things up as he goes along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no problem with that, I've admitted to doing it myself. But I at \nleast make sure when I include a prophecy or foreshadowing involving the \nnumber 12 that I am familiar with how many 12 is, and how to distinguish \nit from 11." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7C3DEB.7030107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-04T12:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7BC651.9060808@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2012 11:56 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/3/2012 10:36 PM, Greg Bates wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know the Battlestar Galactica comment was a joke, but Ron Moore is one\nof the most up-front showrunners i've ever seen when it comes to\nadmitting he's making things up as he goes along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no problem with that, I've admitted to doing it myself. But I \nat least make sure when I include a prophecy or foreshadowing \ninvolving the number 12 that I am familiar with how many 12 is, and \nhow to distinguish it from 11." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, this is why more engineers need to be writers." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T12:42:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7C3DEB.7030107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated \nnumerous statements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhich conclusion? There was the part about the island's secrets being\ntraced back to an eternal fraternal conflict between Jacob and his\n\"nameless\" brother (given that the writers are jewish I think we can\nconclude the name was \"Esau\" and the Jew-Muslim enmity is being referenced).\n \nAnd there was the final conclusion seeming to suggest the whole series was\nthe dying dream of a plane crash victim, fabricated from glimpses of his\nfellow passengers and his own life.\n \nI think those two conclusions were planned from the beginning. Some of the \nrest was contradictory, resulting from some silly plot extensions they came\nup with in the final two seasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer: Don't reopen old wounds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSorry! \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7C44DC.5060508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-04T12:55:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/4/2012 8:42 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated\nnumerous statements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which conclusion? There was the part about the island's secrets being\ntraced back to an eternal fraternal conflict between Jacob and his\n\"nameless\" brother (given that the writers are jewish I think we can\nconclude the name was \"Esau\" and the Jew-Muslim enmity is being referenced).\n\nAnd there was the final conclusion seeming to suggest the whole series was\nthe dying dream of a plane crash victim, fabricated from glimpses of his\nfellow passengers and his own life.\n\nI think those two conclusions were planned from the beginning. Some of the\nrest was contradictory, resulting from some silly plot extensions they came\nup with in the final two seasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least one was Jewish. Another was Catholic. I don't think Abrams is \nJewish. Anyway, what difference would it make?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T14:22:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7C44DC.5060508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least one was Jewish. Another was Catholic. I don't think Abrams is \nJewish. Anyway, what difference would it make?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAbrams is jewish, as his name strongly suggests. I was going for the \nthree credited with originating the series, Abrams, Lindelof and Lieber, \nall jewish as far as I can tell. Who is Catholic? Carlton Cuse? He was\nan important writer but not one of the creators.\n \nAnyway, we might hope it wouldn't make a difference but I think it does.\nFor whatever reason, one of the smallest nations in the world in size and\npopulation gets an extraordinarily disproportionate amount of attention in\nthe global media and among billions of religious-minded people on earth.\n \nAs some here suggest that Gene Wolfe is speaking in a code which can be\nunderstood by an audience attuned to Catholic and mythological elements,\nso Jewish writers might use a similar code. Not naming Jacob's brother in\nthe show automatically brings the name Esau to mind for those familiar with\nthe OT. That fraternal conflict (and the associated Isaac/Ishmael schism)\nrepresents the Biblical rift between Hebrews and Arabs, Jews and Muslims.\nAnd I think jewish writers might be more likely to present that conflict as\ntied to some primal power at the roots of the earth (or whatever that\nunderground glowing cave was supposed to be).\n \n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7C5A52.5060302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-04T14:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/4/2012 10:22 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAt least one was Jewish. Another was Catholic. I don't think Abrams is\nJewish. Anyway, what difference would it make?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abrams is jewish, as his name strongly suggests. I was going for the\nthree credited with originating the series, Abrams, Lindelof and Lieber,\nall jewish as far as I can tell. Who is Catholic? Carlton Cuse? He was\nan important writer but not one of the creators." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I had read something about Abrams---turns out it was that his wife \nis Catholic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, we might hope it wouldn't make a difference but I think it does.\nFor whatever reason, one of the smallest nations in the world in size and\npopulation gets an extraordinarily disproportionate amount of attention in\nthe global media and among billions of religious-minded people on earth.\n\nAs some here suggest that Gene Wolfe is speaking in a code which can be\nunderstood by an audience attuned to Catholic and mythological elements,\nso Jewish writers might use a similar code. Not naming Jacob's brother in\nthe show automatically brings the name Esau to mind for those familiar with\nthe OT. That fraternal conflict (and the associated Isaac/Ishmael schism)\nrepresents the Biblical rift between Hebrews and Arabs, Jews and Muslims.\nAnd I think jewish writers might be more likely to present that conflict as\ntied to some primal power at the roots of the earth (or whatever that\nunderground glowing cave was supposed to be)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But those characters are in the OT and therefore are Christian ones as \nwell---although in an important sense they are not at all.\n\nAnyway, maybe. It makes sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T18:31:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who is on friendly terms with one of seasons 4-6 writers of\nLOST I can assure you (and I am only going on what I was told) that\nthe fued between the brothers, the hydrogen bomb, and the Oceanic 6\nstorylines were developed in between seasons 1 and 2. Certain things\narise over the course of 6 years which caused the writers to change\nsome of thier plans, Eko was supposed to have a far larger role for\nexample. And Jacobs brother name was Samuel at least in script form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/4/12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At least one was Jewish. Another was Catholic. I don't think Abrams is\nJewish. Anyway, what difference would it make?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abrams is jewish, as his name strongly suggests. I was going for the\nthree credited with originating the series, Abrams, Lindelof and Lieber,\nall jewish as far as I can tell. Who is Catholic? Carlton Cuse? He was\nan important writer but not one of the creators.\n\nAnyway, we might hope it wouldn't make a difference but I think it does.\nFor whatever reason, one of the smallest nations in the world in size and\npopulation gets an extraordinarily disproportionate amount of attention in\nthe global media and among billions of religious-minded people on earth.\n\nAs some here suggest that Gene Wolfe is speaking in a code which can be\nunderstood by an audience attuned to Catholic and mythological elements,\nso Jewish writers might use a similar code. Not naming Jacob's brother in\nthe show automatically brings the name Esau to mind for those familiar with\nthe OT. That fraternal conflict (and the associated Isaac/Ishmael schism)\nrepresents the Biblical rift between Hebrews and Arabs, Jews and Muslims.\nAnd I think jewish writers might be more likely to present that conflict as\ntied to some primal power at the roots of the earth (or whatever that\nunderground glowing cave was supposed to be).\n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T19:38:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: As someone who is on friendly terms with one of seasons \n4-6 writers of LOST I can assure you (and I am only going on what I was told) \nthat the feud between the brothers..developed in between seasons 1 and 2...\nAnd Jacobs brother name was Samuel at least in script form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks, Larry. I do appreciate the insider information and it certainly gives\nme pause. I had the unique experience of watching all 6 years of Lost in 6 \nmonths, done after the show's finale. I think allowed me to be more in tune\nto the clues than if I had watched it on a weekly basis.\n \nI reported my progress to a co-worker who had already seen the finale. He tried\nto misdirect me to avoid spoilers but there were so many early references to \nbrothers, even in the first season, that I could not be dissuaded from\nan insistence that the final revelation would have a fraternal component (clues\nranging from Brothers Karamazov to the Kinks and Oasis).\n \nIf the original name of the other brother was \"Samuel\", I am wondering why they \ndecided to delete it. The name \"Jacob\" was given years before they ever showed\nhim. Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to completely discard\n\"Esau\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-04T21:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC I think Samuel was used on the script merely for casting purposes\nand Jacobs brother was always gonna remain unnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/4/12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Larry Miller: As someone who is on friendly terms with one of seasons\n4-6 writers of LOST I can assure you (and I am only going on what I was\ntold)\nthat the feud between the brothers..developed in between seasons 1 and 2...\nAnd Jacobs brother name was Samuel at least in script form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, Larry. I do appreciate the insider information and it certainly\ngives\nme pause. I had the unique experience of watching all 6 years of Lost in 6\nmonths, done after the show's finale. I think allowed me to be more in tune\nto the clues than if I had watched it on a weekly basis.\n\nI reported my progress to a co-worker who had already seen the finale. He\ntried\nto misdirect me to avoid spoilers but there were so many early references to\nbrothers, even in the first season, that I could not be dissuaded from\nan insistence that the final revelation would have a fraternal component\n(clues\nranging from Brothers Karamazov to the Kinks and Oasis).\n\nIf the original name of the other brother was \"Samuel\", I am wondering why\nthey\ndecided to delete it. The name \"Jacob\" was given years before they ever\nshowed\nhim. Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to completely\ndiscard\n\"Esau\". \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7E8C15.9090706@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T06:24:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/4/2012 7:42 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated\nnumerous statements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which conclusion? There was the part about the island's secrets being\ntraced back to an eternal fraternal conflict between Jacob and his\n\"nameless\" brother (given that the writers are jewish I think we can\nconclude the name was \"Esau\" and the Jew-Muslim enmity is being referenced).\n\nAnd there was the final conclusion seeming to suggest the whole series was\nthe dying dream of a plane crash victim, fabricated from glimpses of his\nfellow passengers and his own life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It looked to me like the \"flash-sideways\" world was Jack's dream, but \nthey said in the first season that the resolution would not be\n\"it was all a dream\" and again later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the original name of the other brother was \"Samuel\", I am\nwondering why they\ndecided to delete it. The name \"Jacob\" was given years before they\never showed\nhim. Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to\ncompletely discard\n\"Esau\". \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They said it was because it was more interesting to keep him unnamed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T12:01:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7E8C15.9090706@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: ...but they said in the first season that the resolution \nwould not be \"it was all a dream\" and again later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm interested in whether that information was volunteered or elicited\nas a response to a question by in interviewer. Either way I could go so far \nas to say that was a lie or at least misleading (which is what I expect was \nthe intention). The final 60 seconds of the six year series duplicates the very \nfirst 60 seconds and we end with a POV going into the main character's eye. Not \nthe most subtle way to suggest it was \"all a dream\". Also the show spent years \npeppering us with allusions to Wizard of Oz and Mulholland Dr. and The Occurence \nAt Owl Creek Bridge and similar fictional dream depictions.\n \nPersonally, I could understand them wanting to mislead us on this issue\nand leaving it vague. \"It was all a dream\" is an easy way to shrug off \nthe entire series, even if that's what it was. I think the human subconscious\nis an underexplored area in the arts (considering that 1/3 of our lives are \nspent dreaming) and such explorations are often unfairly dismissed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to\ncompletely discard \"Esau\". " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They said it was because it was more interesting to keep him unnamed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhich is a way of saying nothing. They could have left lots of characters\nunnamed. Why is it more interesting to not name THAT one? The writers might not\nbe at Gene Wolfe's level, but like him they understand the power of not revealing\nthe name of an important character, like the old boatman or Seawrack. It is \na clearly presented puzzle to an actively thinking audience member and if we are \ngiven the means to figure it out, we are invited to do so.\n \nI should mention that my suspicion that Jacob and his brother are meant to symbolize\nthe eternal fraternal conflict between Judaism and Islam is bolstered by the\nsignificant amount of time the cast spends in that Church Of All Faiths in the finale.\nThere isn't much else in the 6 year history of the show which would explain that\nreligious emphasis. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T15:29:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7E8C15.9090706@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They have indicated that the brother's name was indeed Samuel. Most people\nseem to have forgotten that LOST was, at heart, a mystery show. Mystrery\nis what made the show what it was; to solve all the mysteries would have\ncut the heart out of the show. I just hope those \"TV\" writers inspired by\nLOST will write original shows in the future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/4/2012 7:42 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Jeff Wilson: Er, they did NOT plan out LOST; the conclusion violated\nnumerous statements the producers made in earlier seasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which conclusion? There was the part about the island's secrets being\ntraced back to an eternal fraternal conflict between Jacob and his\n\"nameless\" brother (given that the writers are jewish I think we can\nconclude the name was \"Esau\" and the Jew-Muslim enmity is being\nreferenced).\n\nAnd there was the final conclusion seeming to suggest the whole series was\nthe dying dream of a plane crash victim, fabricated from glimpses of his\nfellow passengers and his own life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It looked to me like the \"flash-sideways\" world was Jack's dream, but they\nsaid in the first season that the resolution would not be\n\"it was all a dream\" and again later.\n\n\n If the original name of the other brother was \"Samuel\", I am" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wondering why they" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "decided to delete it. The name \"Jacob\" was given years before they" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ever showed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "him. Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "completely discard" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Esau\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They said it was because it was more interesting to keep him unnamed.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9973851187AF44F8B1E7C2DE933E986C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T16:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: ...but they said in the first season that the resolution \nwould not be \"it was all a dream\" and again later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm interested in whether that information was volunteered or elicited\nas a response to a question by in interviewer. Either way I could go so far \nas to say that was a lie or at least misleading (which is what I expect was \nthe intention). The final 60 seconds of the six year series duplicates the very \nfirst 60 seconds and we end with a POV going into the main character's eye. Not \nthe most subtle way to suggest it was \"all a dream\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn’t watch it to the end, but one obvious interpretation of what is described above is that they are in a time loop.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T16:18:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dont understand why people take the conclusion as the whole series\nbeing a dream. Everything that happened in the show happened to the\ncharacters. The flash sideways was a glimpse into the afterlife which\ntook on the form of an alternate timeline. What suggestion is there\nthat it was a dream?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: ...but they said in the first season that the resolution\nwould not be \"it was all a dream\" and again later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm interested in whether that information was volunteered or elicited\nas a response to a question by in interviewer. Either way I could go so far\nas to say that was a lie or at least misleading (which is what I expect was\nthe intention). The final 60 seconds of the six year series duplicates the\nvery\nfirst 60 seconds and we end with a POV going into the main character's eye.\nNot\nthe most subtle way to suggest it was \"all a dream\". Also the show spent\nyears\npeppering us with allusions to Wizard of Oz and Mulholland Dr. and The\nOccurence\nAt Owl Creek Bridge and similar fictional dream depictions.\n\nPersonally, I could understand them wanting to mislead us on this issue\nand leaving it vague. \"It was all a dream\" is an easy way to shrug off\nthe entire series, even if that's what it was. I think the human\nsubconscious\nis an underexplored area in the arts (considering that 1/3 of our lives are\nspent dreaming) and such explorations are often unfairly dismissed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why keep \"Samuel\" unamed? For this reason I hesitate to\ncompletely discard \"Esau\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They said it was because it was more interesting to keep him unnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is a way of saying nothing. They could have left lots of characters\nunnamed. Why is it more interesting to not name THAT one? The writers might\nnot\nbe at Gene Wolfe's level, but like him they understand the power of not\nrevealing\nthe name of an important character, like the old boatman or Seawrack. It is\na clearly presented puzzle to an actively thinking audience member and if we\nare\ngiven the means to figure it out, we are invited to do so.\n\nI should mention that my suspicion that Jacob and his brother are meant to\nsymbolize\nthe eternal fraternal conflict between Judaism and Islam is bolstered by the\nsignificant amount of time the cast spends in that Church Of All Faiths in\nthe finale.\nThere isn't much else in the 6 year history of the show which would explain\nthat\nreligious emphasis. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T17:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI should mention that my suspicion that Jacob and his brother are meant to\nsymbolize\nthe eternal fraternal conflict between Judaism and Islam is bolstered by\nthe\nsignificant amount of time the cast spends in that Church Of All Faiths in\nthe finale.\nThere isn't much else in the 6 year history of the show which would\nexplain that\nreligious emphasis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Au contraire--religious themes popped up time and time again: the Virigin\nMary statues, Charlie's altar-boy past, Eko as fake priest, Desmond in the\nmonastery, Jacob/Locke as martyrs, not to mention the constant\nfaith/science debate between Locke and Jack and the broader issues of fate\nand destiny.\n\nFraternal conflicts, yes; perhaps a reference to Judaism and Islam,\nalthough I saw a lot more Christian imagery overall (Sayid's Muslim\nheritage did not play a major role). If we wanted to be slavishly literal,\nof course, the fraternal religious split would actually be one generation\nearlier, between Isaac and Ishmael rather than Jacob and Esau.\n\nSomewhat embarrassing that I'm popping out of lurkerdom to discuss Lost\nrather than Wolfe, but that's probably a sign of my true intellectual\nacuity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7F3489.8050808@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T18:23:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/2012 11:18 AM, Larry Miller wrote:\nI dont understand why people take the conclusion as the whole series\nbeing a dream. Everything that happened in the show happened to the\ncharacters. The flash sideways was a glimpse into the afterlife which\ntook on the form of an alternate timeline. What suggestion is there\nthat it was a dream?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It ended when Jack ended, and it was his dad that came back from the \ndead to reassure him that it was okay and Jack hadn't screwed up. I \nrealize Dad says that everyone there is dead and created the scenario to \nhelp prepare themselves for the next life, but A) it's still kind of \nweird that these dead people are choosing to rally at the funeral of a \nguy that died before all but 2-3 of them had a chance to meet him, but \nleft out people that many of them had more intense, favorable emotional \nconnections to on the island and afterwards, and B) I notice that Jack \nand his dad have this reveal/discussion in this separate room away from \nthe other cast, with simpler photography than elsewhere; it was made to \nbe kept secret from as much of the cast and crew as possible, which \nshows a lack of prior commitment to the direction as much as a desire to \nkeep the secret to me. Same for the \"remembering\" scenes, where I think \nat most three characters are party to it and of course they are not \nexplained.\n\nIt had lots of wish-fulfillment in it for the other characters, too, \nthere were very few if any characters in it that Jack hadn't met or at \nleast possibly heard of, and Jack is this super-responsible custodian \ntype who is soft-hearted and hates to see people suffer; it would make a \nwonderful escapist fantasy for him to be off the island, back working \nwith his ex and have his friends and redeemable enemies doing well in \nresponsible jobs, with some of the people he'd written off as \nirredeemable getting their just deserts. And some of the people just \nweren't there, presumably because it hurt his brain to think about them \nanymore, like Walt and Michael.\n\nAnd Claire's baby remaining a baby in the afterlife despite growing up \nwith him for several years and Sun's baby being back in the womb could \nreflect his ambivalent attitudes about children in general and wanting \nto have a family with Kate." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7F3884.2030007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-06T18:40:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/2012 1:43 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:\nOn Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n\n I should mention that my suspicion that Jacob and his brother are\n meant to symbolize\n the eternal fraternal conflict between Judaism and Islam is\n bolstered by the\n significant amount of time the cast spends in that Church Of All\n Faiths in the finale.\n There isn't much else in the 6 year history of the show which\n would explain that\n religious emphasis.\n\n\nAu contraire--religious themes popped up time and time again: the \nVirigin Mary statues, Charlie's altar-boy past, Eko as fake priest, \nDesmond in the monastery, Jacob/Locke as martyrs, not to mention the \nconstant faith/science debate between Locke and Jack and the broader \nissues of fate and destiny.\n\nFraternal conflicts, yes; perhaps a reference to Judaism and Islam, \nalthough I saw a lot more Christian imagery overall (Sayid's Muslim \nheritage did not play a major role). If we wanted to be slavishly \nliteral, of course, the fraternal religious split would actually be \none generation earlier, between Isaac and Ishmael rather than Jacob \nand Esau.\n\nSomewhat embarrassing that I'm popping out of lurkerdom to discuss \nLost rather than Wolfe, but that's probably a sign of my true \nintellectual acuity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh!\n\nYeah, there were so many heavy-handed references my wife and I \npractically made a drinking game out of characters saying \"take a leap \nof faith.\" Then again, we also played a game of writing the dialogue \nmoments before it was actually spoken. We were never wrong.\n\nGood times ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<796A5AD5-9B73-4EFD-B952-3468B67029E2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T18:49:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7F3884.2030007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man, what a lively LOST debate we have going on here. I wonder if Gene has watched the show.\n\nIs it not possible, however, that the purgatory thing still has legs and that Jack was their shepherd to the after life?\n\nI guess I don't like the myopic nature of It Was All a Dream, and want the window to have a wider opening than that.\n\nThe Others, Dharma, Black Rock, Jacob, etc. lose a lot of weight when they simply become figments of a dying man's imagination. Unless that dying man is some seasoned mystery novelist, I guess.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/6/2012 1:43 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n\n I should mention that my suspicion that Jacob and his brother are\n meant to symbolize\n the eternal fraternal conflict between Judaism and Islam is\n bolstered by the\n significant amount of time the cast spends in that Church Of All\n Faiths in the finale.\n There isn't much else in the 6 year history of the show which\n would explain that\n religious emphasis.\n\n\nAu contraire--religious themes popped up time and time again: the Virigin Mary statues, Charlie's altar-boy past, Eko as fake priest, Desmond in the monastery, Jacob/Locke as martyrs, not to mention the constant faith/science debate between Locke and Jack and the broader issues of fate and destiny.\n\nFraternal conflicts, yes; perhaps a reference to Judaism and Islam, although I saw a lot more Christian imagery overall (Sayid's Muslim heritage did not play a major role). If we wanted to be slavishly literal, of course, the fraternal religious split would actually be one generation earlier, between Isaac and Ishmael rather than Jacob and Esau.\n\nSomewhat embarrassing that I'm popping out of lurkerdom to discuss Lost rather than Wolfe, but that's probably a sign of my true intellectual acuity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "heh!\n\nYeah, there were so many heavy-handed references my wife and I practically made a drinking game out of characters saying \"take a leap of faith.\" Then again, we also played a game of writing the dialogue moments before it was actually spoken. We were never wrong.\n\nGood times ...\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T19:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<796A5AD5-9B73-4EFD-B952-3468B67029E2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Knight: Au contraire--religious themes popped up time and \ntime again:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, sure. I didn't imply there were no religious references. I\nmeant references to conflicts between different faiths. I \nthink the church-of-all-faiths, with the stained glass cross\nco-existing with the mogen david, the star and crescent and a few\nother symbols of major religions was meant to address the idea of\nmending interfaith conflicts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fraternal conflicts, yes; perhaps a reference to Judaism and Islam,\nalthough I saw a lot more Christian imagery overall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSure. My impression is that the jewish writers naturally focus on the\njudaism/islam schism but their point is that the \"brother vs. brother\"\ntheme is at the root of all humanity's military conflicts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we wanted to be slavishly literal, of course, the fraternal religious \nsplit would actually be one generation earlier, between Isaac and Ishmael \nrather than Jacob and Esau." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTrue, but it was continued in the next generation. Esau, dismayed by being\ncheated out of his birthright, married into the house of Ishmael. I can't\nbe blamed for being skeptical that some jewish writers would create a\ncharacter named Jacob with an unnamed brother and be completely oblivious\nto the possibility that people might think of Esau. \n \nIf they didn't want people to think of Esau, they wouldn't have picked the \nbrotherly name \"Jacob\". The topic HAD to have come up in their discussions. \nI suspect \"Samuel\" was a red herring disguise from the beginning. Like a \ndenial of the possible dying dream scenario. It would ruin the whole thing \nif they simply gave such things away, and they knew that. Wolfe is the same \nway.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7F4151.40805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-06T19:17:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<796A5AD5-9B73-4EFD-B952-3468B67029E2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always figured at least one of the writers, or Abrams himself, must \nhave read BTNS. The mix of pulp mysteries with pulp SF, with multiple \ntime leaps (if not loops), and the deliberate withholding of information \nis just too familiar.\n\nI don't claim \"influence,\" simply that Wolfe shows what can be done with \nnarrative. It would remain to an Abrams to actually try to do it on \nnetwork TV." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/2012 2:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMan, what a lively LOST debate we have going on here. I wonder if Gene has watched the show.\n\nIs it not possible, however, that the purgatory thing still has legs and that Jack was their shepherd to the after life?\n\nI guess I don't like the myopic nature of It Was All a Dream, and want the window to have a wider opening than that.\n\nThe Others, Dharma, Black Rock, Jacob, etc. lose a lot of weight when they simply become figments of a dying man's imagination. Unless that dying man is some seasoned mystery novelist, I guess.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28B2B6ED71264E8D866D650C06759D90@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T19:33:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7F4151.40805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always figured at least one of the writers, or Abrams himself, must \nhave read BTNS. The mix of pulp mysteries with pulp SF, with multiple \ntime leaps (if not loops), and the deliberate withholding of information \nis just too familiar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are TV precursors too, though, such as Twin Peaks.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T19:56:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<28B2B6ED71264E8D866D650C06759D90@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There are TV precursors too, though, such as Twin Peaks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, funny. My own guess is that they had seen the David Lynch movie,\nMulholland Dr. since two little used actors from that movie got parts\nin Lost.\n \nBut both Mulholand Dr and Twin Peaks address the issue of exploring a\nmental landscape with confusion over what is \"real\" and what exists\nwithin a person's mind. So a very pertinent suggestion, Gerry.\n \n(and apologies to others for drifting too far from Wolfe in this thread) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7F6C6B.1000102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-06T22:21:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<28B2B6ED71264E8D866D650C06759D90@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/2012 3:33 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nI always figured at least one of the writers, or Abrams himself, must" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have read BTNS. The mix of pulp mysteries with pulp SF, with multiple" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "time leaps (if not loops), and the deliberate withholding of information" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is just too familiar.\nThere are TV precursors too, though, such as Twin Peaks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely! But none with time travel, certainly not as complicated as \nin LOST." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-06T23:32:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7F6C6B.1000102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah the time travel stuff and the hydrogen bomb seems to be the\nsource of most confusion. The bomb worked and it did destroy the EM\npocket but because of the paradox of them never having come to the\nisland in the future thus they never travel back in time and the EM\npocket is never destroyed things get complicated. Faraday was right\nwhen he said whatever happened happened. Remember the universe course\ncorrects according to Eloise. The energy released created a pocket\ndimension an artificial world that is outside space and time where the\nisland was destroyed in the 70s and the crash never happened. Now\nafter they die in the real world thier souls or thier piece of the\nlight all migrate to this other world because they all have to be\ntogether before they can pass on or return to the Source due to\nwhatever Jacob put out into the world to bind all thier destinies\ntogether having carried over after death. This is what I made of the\nshow after learning some inside info." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/12, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/6/2012 3:33 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nI always figured at least one of the writers, or Abrams himself, must" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "have read BTNS. The mix of pulp mysteries with pulp SF, with multiple" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "time leaps (if not loops), and the deliberate withholding of information" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is just too familiar.\nThere are TV precursors too, though, such as Twin Peaks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Definitely! But none with time travel, certainly not as complicated as\nin LOST.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F7FEAD1.8020907@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-07T07:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/6/2012 11:18 AM, Larry Miller wrote:\nI dont understand why people take the conclusion as the whole series\nbeing a dream. Everything that happened in the show happened to the\ncharacters. The flash sideways was a glimpse into the afterlife which\ntook on the form of an alternate timeline. What suggestion is there\nthat it was a dream?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, and one thing that heavily suggested it was a shot of the original \nwreckage scene that the network thoughtfully showed after the end of the \nshow. They later said they put it there to fill the time while viewers \nmentally decompressed, and the actual producers denied all knowledge of it.\n\n\nOh, hey here's a link to one of the earlier denials:\n\nhttp://web.archive.org/web/20050316053825/http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,271|94107|1|,00.html\n\n\"Thankfully Abrams dismissed the popularly held theory that the \ncastaways are stranded in Purgatory, though he claimed to like the idea.\"\n\nand at the end a confirmation: \"'I would be an absolute liar if I said \nevery single thing was planned out from the beginning.'\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35779363-7904-482E-9193-20C7D800463B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-07T11:52:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fringe", "in_reply_to": "<4F7FEAD1.8020907@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 07/04/2012, ?s 08:20, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"'I would be an absolute liar if I said every single thing was planned out from the beginning.'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not really saying much, is it? Sounds like someone pretending to be reasonable while actually conceding nothing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F9A0294.1040706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-27T02:21:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<1333388143.27734.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've begun reading the Meditations, and I find very little in the \nMeditations themselves that suggest much of a connection to Wolfe in \nstyle or substance.\n\nHowever, the introduction stopped me cold. I find several passages to be \nquite suggestive in the context of Severian the Stoic Emperor. I just \nwish I could find out who wrote it---but the Gutenberg Project gives no \ninformation on that point. The HTML is here: \nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/files/2680/2680-h/2680-h.htm.\n\nI offer the following without much comment, except to say that there are \ntwo ways the emperor could have influenced Wolfe's conception of \nSeverian: first, by offering an opposing example of an almost good and \nthoughtful man, raised as such and groomed to be emperor; second, by \nsimilarity, as a dutiful, if not entirely good, man in a bad world who \nbecomes emperor by \"accident.\" Since the combination of these could \nallow anything, I'll just let the passages speak for themselves; I'll \nlet others consider how a man bred to the throne might actually resemble \nan orphaned puppet of time-traveling aliens.\n\nBut Marcus was pretty well known as a symbol of just and dutiful service \nto the Empire and, to Christians, as a man almost \"good\" enough to be \none of their own. Wolfe patterned the Commonwealth after Byzantium, but \nI don't think the Greek emperors had anyone quite like Marcus. I have no \ndoubt that Severian is meant as a kind of Stoic; this is the first and \nonly instance I have ever seen of the word \"autarch\" used in the sense \nthat Wolfe uses it (allowing some latitude for SFal repurposing). But I \ndo not see Severian as a recreation of Marcus, rather as the result of \nan experiment in first-person narration inspired by the memoirs of the \nRoman emperors in general and of Marcus in particular as a unique \ncombination of character, chance of birth, and philosophy. Severian \nstruggles with many of the same questions in different form and may not \nreach the same answers, but the highly controlled persona he projects is \nmuch like that described below.\n\nObserve especially the words and images used by the writer.\n\n. . . .\n\nAs a soldier we have seen that Marcus was both capable and successful; \nas an administrator he was prudent and conscientious. Although steeped \nin the teachings of philosophy, he did not attempt to remodel the world \non any preconceived plan. He trod the path beaten by his predecessors, \nseeking only to do his duty as well as he could, and to keep out \ncorruption. . . . But the strong point of his reign was the \nadministration of justice. Marcus sought by-laws to protect the weak, to \nmake the lot of the slaves less hard, to stand in place of father to the \nfatherless. Charitable foundations were endowed for rearing and \neducating poor children. The provinces were protected against \noppression, and public help was given to cities or districts which might \nbe visited by calamity. The great blot on his name, and one hard indeed \nto explain, is his treatment of the Christians. . . .\n\nTo a thoughtful mind such a religion as that of Rome would give small \nsatisfaction. Its legends were often childish or impossible; its \nteaching had little to do with morality. The Roman religion was in fact \nof the nature of a bargain: men paid certain sacrifices and rites, and \nthe gods granted their favour, irrespective of right or wrong. In this \ncase all devout souls were thrown back upon philosophy, as they had \nbeen, though to a less extent, in Greece. . . .\n\n. . . .\n\nThe universe, then, is God, of whom the popular gods are manifestations; \nwhile legends and myths are allegorical. The soul of man is thus an \nemanation from the godhead, into whom it will eventually be re-absorbed. \nThe divine ruling principle makes all things work together for good, but \nfor the good of the whole. The highest good of man is consciously to \nwork with God for the common good, and this is the sense in which the \nStoic tried to live in accord with nature. In the individual it is \nvirtue alone which enables him to do this; as Providence rules the \nuniverse, so virtue in the soul must rule man.\n\nIn Logic, the Stoic system is noteworthy for their theory as to the test \nof truth, the Criterion. They compared the new-born soul to a sheet of \npaper ready for writing. . . . Moreover, nothing is good but virtue, and \nnothing but vice is bad. Those outside things which are commonly called \ngood or bad, such as health and sickness, wealth and poverty, pleasure \nand pain, are to him indifferent adiofora. All these things are merely \nthe sphere in which virtue may act. The ideal Wise Man is sufficient \nunto himself in all things, autarkhs and knowing these truths, he will \nbe happy even when stretched upon the rack. It is probable that no Stoic \nclaimed for himself that he was this Wise Man, but that each strove \nafter it as an ideal much as the Christian strives after a likeness to \nChrist. . . . It is again instructive to note that Christian sages \ninsisted on the same thing. Christians are taught that they are members \nof a worldwide brotherhood, where is neither Greek nor Hebrew, bond nor \nfree and that they live their lives as fellow-workers with God.\n\nSuch is the system which underlies the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. \nSome knowledge of it is necessary to the right understanding of the \nbook, but for us the chief interest lies elsewhere. We do not come to \nMarcus Aurelius for a treatise on Stoicism. He is no head of a school to \nlay down a body of doctrine for students; he does not even contemplate \nthat others should read what he writes. . . .\n\nIt is instructive to compare the Meditations with another famous book, \nthe Imitation of Christ. There is the same ideal of self-control in \nboth. It should be a man's task, says the Imitation, 'to overcome \nhimself, and every day to be stronger than himself.' 'In withstanding of \nthe passions standeth very peace of heart.' 'Let us set the axe to the \nroot, that we being purged of our passions may have a peaceable mind.' \nTo this end there must be continual self-examination. . . .\n\nBut there is one great difference between the two books we are \nconsidering. The Imitation is addressed to others, the Meditations by \nthe writer to himself. We learn nothing from the Imitation of the \nauthor's own life, except in so far as he may be assumed to have \npractised his own preachings; the Meditations reflect mood by mood the \nmind of him who wrote them. In their intimacy and frankness lies their \ngreat charm. These notes are not sermons; they are not even confessions. \nThere is always an air of self-consciousness in confessions; in such \nrevelations there is always a danger of unctuousness or of vulgarity for \nthe best of men. St. Augustine is not always clear of offence, and John \nBunyan himself exaggerates venial peccadilloes into heinous sins. But \nMarcus Aurelius is neither vulgar nor unctuous; he extenuates nothing, \nbut nothing sets down in malice. He never poses before an audience; he \nmay not be profound, he is always sincere. And it is a lofty and serene \nsoul which is here disclosed before us. Vulgar vices seem to have no \ntemptation for him; this is not one tied and bound with chains which he \nstrives to break. The faults he detects in himself are often such as \nmost men would have no eyes to see. . . .\n\n. . . .\n\nIf his was that honest and true heart which is the Christian ideal, this \nis the more wonderful in that he lacked the faith which makes Christians \nstrong. . . .\n\nBut although Marcus Aurelius may have held intellectually that his soul \nwas destined to be absorbed, and to lose consciousness of itself, there \nwere times when he felt, as all who hold it must sometimes feel, how \nunsatisfying is such a creed. Then he gropes blindly after something \nless empty and vain. 'Thou hast taken ship,' he says, 'thou hast sailed, \nthou art come to land, go out, if to another life, there also shalt thou \nfind gods, who are everywhere.' . . .\n\n. . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2012 1:35 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\non second thought, maybe some of the thoughts about \"obeying\" and duty and order in Severian's philosophy, but I just don't think it is definitely an outgrowth of Aurelius, but the practical application of a far more dualistic, top heavy philosophy.\n\n--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Marc Aramini\nSubject: Re: (urth) Fairies and Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1335503264.58967.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-27T05:07:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<4F9A0294.1040706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've begun reading the Meditations, and I find very little in the Meditations themselves that suggest much of a connection to Wolfe in style or substance.\n\nHowever, the introduction stopped me cold. I find several passages to be quite suggestive in the context of Severian the Stoic Emperor. I just wish I could find out who wrote it---but the Gutenberg Project gives no information on that point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nIt's by W. H. D. Rouse.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=UawfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR1\n\nI don't know anything about him, but Wikipedia does.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-27T11:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<1335503264.58967.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there are two ways the emperor could have influenced Wolfe's conception of \nSeverian: first, by offering an opposing example of an almost good and \nthoughtful man, raised as such and groomed to be emperor; second, by \nsimilarity, as a dutiful, if not entirely good, man in a bad world who \nbecomes emperor by \"accident.\".....I \ndo not see Severian as a recreation of Marcus, rather as the result of \nan experiment in first-person narration inspired by the memoirs of the \nRoman emperors in general and of Marcus in particular as a unique \ncombination of character, chance of birth, and philosophy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nInteresting comparisons and insights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The universe, then, is God, of whom the popular gods are manifestations; \nwhile legends and myths are allegorical. The soul of man is thus an \nemanation from the godhead, into whom it will eventually be re-absorbed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is as good a summation as any of the way I see Wolfe presenting Man, \nGod and the Sun Series universe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F9A87C6.2040302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-27T11:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<1335503264.58967.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Jerry.\n\nEveryman's, published in 1906, translation by Casaubon, 1634." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/27/2012 1:07 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nW. H. D. Rouse." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F9A8D07.10402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-27T12:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought so.\n\nThat, and notice the Criterion, the Test of Truth, and the \"ideal Wise \nMan, sufficient unto himself.\" \"He trod the path beaten by his \npredecessors. . . .\" \"Vulgar vices seem to have no temptation for him. . \n. .\"\n\nAnd of course that \"he does not even contemplate that others should read \nwhat he writes. . . . \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/27/2012 7:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "there are two ways the emperor could have influenced Wolfe's conception of\nSeverian: first, by offering an opposing example of an almost good and\nthoughtful man, raised as such and groomed to be emperor; second, by\nsimilarity, as a dutiful, if not entirely good, man in a bad world who\nbecomes emperor by \"accident.\".....I\ndo not see Severian as a recreation of Marcus, rather as the result of\nan experiment in first-person narration inspired by the memoirs of the\nRoman emperors in general and of Marcus in particular as a unique\ncombination of character, chance of birth, and philosophy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting comparisons and insights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The universe, then, is God, of whom the popular gods are manifestations;\nwhile legends and myths are allegorical. The soul of man is thus an\nemanation from the godhead, into whom it will eventually be re-absorbed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is as good a summation as any of the way I see Wolfe presenting Man,\nGod and the Sun Series universe. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1335532875.40605.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-27T13:21:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<4F9A87C6.2040302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "T hanks Jerry.\n\nEveryman's, published in 1906, translation by Casaubon, 1634." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And called /The Golden Book of Marcus Aurelius/, a title whose Lupine significance I didn't notice last night.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1335534548.22823.YahooMailNeo@web84507.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-27T13:49:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited", "in_reply_to": "<1335532875.40605.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! That too is missing from the ebook, but you're right. Very nice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:21 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Marcus Aurelius (re)visited" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "T hanks Jerry.\n\nEveryman's, published in 1906, translation by Casaubon, 1634." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And called /The Golden Book of Marcus Aurelius/, a title whose Lupine significance I didn't notice last night.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }