{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6231", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6231, "subject": "Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "messages": 16, "voices": 6, "first": "2012-04-14T21:27:39+00:00", "last": "2012-04-16T17:41:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-14T21:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone here had\nany input?\n\nIs the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene Wolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99060FFCD5E54A6FBC0CF53F3EEAC106@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-14T21:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nathan C. Tresch " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone here had any input? \n\nIs the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene Wolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2 " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can’t really be. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid, and has no sails. The Ship has symmetric decks and sails. And the interior descriptions do not match at all. \n\nAlso the Whorl’s life is limited. After 300 years it is still functional but not in great condition. \n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T00:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<99060FFCD5E54A6FBC0CF53F3EEAC106@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 14/04/2012, ?s 22:37, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nathan C. Tresch\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone here had any input? \n\nIs the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene Wolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2\nIt can’t really be. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid, and has no sails. The Ship has symmetric decks and sails. And the interior descriptions do not match at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also the Whorl’s life is limited. After 300 years it is still functional but not in great condition. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Whorl is earthly tech. Not so with the Ship. \n\nDidn't know there was a literary SE!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8AB549.8000707@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2012-04-15T11:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IMHO, the answer is \"no\" -\n\nmy reasons\n\n- it seems that there is on this list a (culturally determined) drive to \nidentify almost everything with almost everything\nelse, I do not share it;\n\n- the description - a beautiful spaceship with sails - in case of \nSeverian's ship - is very different, the captain is Tsadkiel,\na king of angelic creature, the ship is a sort of messenger of a higher \nworld;\n\n- it may be unique, but the story seems to be a sort of persistent \nlegend among the sailors, it is presented as such;\n\n- by the way, why should we believe Purn? As far as I remember, she was \nsent by one of the monsters who are\nenemies of Severian and tried to kill him;\n\n- last, but not least, the attempt to identify the Whorl with \nTsadkiel's ship will destroy one of important dramatic\noppositions in the Solar cycle, where Typhon (Pas) who built it, is a \nkind of Luciferian or Antichrist figure - it\nwill destroy the opposition between the ship created by a human ruler \nwho wants to be god, and messengers\nof higher universes.\n\nOne extra remark - to me, from the point of view of literary evolution \nof Gene Wolfe, the\nTsadkiel ship seems a possible development of the idea of the ship in \n\"Silhouette\".\n\nRegards\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan C. Tresch wrote:\nI posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone \nhere had any input? \n\nIs the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene \nWolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T12:07:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<4F8AB549.8000707@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One extra remark - to me, from the point of view of literary evolution \nof Gene Wolfe, the\nTsadkiel ship seems a possible development of the idea of the ship in \n\"Silhouette\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would rather place the Whorl as an evolution of the ship in Silhouette. Both are human-constructed, and both have been subject to mission-creep (although in Silhouette the crew have only been aboard about twenty years ship time). In both cases there are Sleepers who, when woken, feel they have come on board yesterday.\n\nThere are other echoes of future work: the enhanced height of the Captain is reminiscent of exultants, for example.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8ABE27.8090106@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2012-04-15T12:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant that the ship in the \"Silhouette\" looked like a sketch for \nfuture work. For example, there\nis a mutiny and mutineers, affiliated with cults, and that reminds the \nmutiny when Severian\nis on the Tsadkiel's ship. The ship in \"Silhouette\"is a modular, loosy \nconstruction, and overmonitor\nremodels it all the time. Maybe indirectly it is an argument for many \nships in Solar cycle.\nBy the way, recently I asked myself, maybe the silhouette in the story \nis a cousin of notules?\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n \n \n*From:* Sergei SOLOVIEV " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One extra remark - to me, from the point of view of literary evolution\nof Gene Wolfe, the\nTsadkiel ship seems a possible development of the idea of the ship in\n\"Silhouette\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI would rather place the Whorl as an evolution of the ship in \nSilhouette. Both are human-constructed, and both have been subject to \nmission-creep (although in Silhouette the crew have only been aboard \nabout twenty years ship time). In both cases there are Sleepers who, \nwhen woken, feel they have come on board yesterday.\n \nThere are other echoes of future work: the enhanced height of the \nCaptain is reminiscent of exultants, for example.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T13:14:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<4F8ABE27.8090106@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant that the ship in the \"Silhouette\" looked like a sketch for \nfuture work. For example, there\nis a mutiny and mutineers, affiliated with cults, and that reminds the \nmutiny when Severian\nis on the Tsadkiel's ship. The ship in \"Silhouette\"is a modular, loosy \nconstruction, and overmonitor\nremodels it all the time. Maybe indirectly it is an argument for many \nships in Solar cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, it is only in its crew that it resembles the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, recently I asked myself, maybe the silhouette in the story \nis a cousin of notules?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe — but if so it is a much nicer and friendlier cousin! I don’t think so, really, though — apart from being black and shadowy, it has mostly distinct characteristics. The notule is a monster that flies and seeks heat; the silhouette is an intelligent alien that teleports, seems less substantial than the notule, and does not prey on humans even though it is interested in them.\n\nOf course there is foreshadowing here too of many instances when two very different beings combine to achieve something that neither could alone; it is quite reminiscent of SilkHorn’s inhumi-aided astral travel, in fact.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8ACA46.8070208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-15T13:16:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<4F8AB549.8000707@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/15/2012 7:47 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\nOne extra remark - to me, from the point of view of literary evolution \nof Gene Wolfe, the\nTsadkiel ship seems a possible development of the idea of the ship in \n\"Silhouette\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the way it changes its structure?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T19:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<99060FFCD5E54A6FBC0CF53F3EEAC106@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It can’t really be. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid, and has no\nsails. The Ship has symmetric decks and sails. And the interior\ndescriptions do not match at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Whorl is The Ship in its infancy, all of the Whorl could have been\nconverted into one off the vast storage modules or even the interior of the\nmain ship body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also the Whorl’s life is limited. After 300 years it is still\nfunctional but not in great condition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't really know the extent of the repairs made before the Whorl left,\nnor do we know where it went. Maybe it left to go and undergo a\ntransformation into something closer to what The Ship became by the time\nSeverian was being transported." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n *From:* Nathan C. Tresch \n\n > I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone\nhere had any input?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene\nWolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T19:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didn't know there was a literary SE!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're welcome, I recently found it myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It can’t really be. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid, and has no\nsails. The Ship has symmetric decks and sails. And the interior\ndescriptions do not match at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interior could have been converted, and the exterior could simply be\nused as one of the modules of The Ship, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 14/04/2012, ?s 22:37, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:\n\n *From:* Nathan C. Tresch \n\n > I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone\nhere had any input?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene\nWolfe?\n\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/14856/5828?sem=2" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also the Whorl’s life is limited. After 300 years it is still functional\nbut not in great condition.\n\nAnd the Whorl is earthly tech. Not so with the Ship.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T19:14:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<4F8AB549.8000707@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nIMHO, the answer is \"no\" -\n\nmy reasons\n\n- it seems that there is on this list a (culturally determined) drive to\nidentify almost everything with almost everything\nelse, I do not share it;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Noted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- the description - a beautiful spaceship with sails - in case of\nSeverian's ship - is very different, the captain is Tsadkiel,\na king of angelic creature, the ship is a sort of messenger of a higher\nworld;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand that at the time Severian was aboard the ship it had evolved\nto what it was. That doesn't imply that it couldn't have once come from\nhumble beginnings, as a lowly earth vessel, as Severian himself was a lowly\ntorturer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- it may be unique, but the story seems to be a sort of persistent legend\namong the sailors, it is presented as such;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- by the way, why should we believe Purn? As far as I remember, she was\nsent by one of the monsters who are\nenemies of Severian and tried to kill him;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a great many other references to The Ship being one vehicle, I\nreally didn't think that this was something I'd have to document. People\nwere even meeting earlier versions of themselves as they came aboard what\nthey thought was another ship from their own memory, if I recall correctly.\n If this is really something I need to support I'll paste more quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- last, but not least, the attempt to identify the Whorl with Tsadkiel's\n ship will destroy one of important dramatic\noppositions in the Solar cycle, where Typhon (Pas) who built it, is a\nkind of Luciferian or Antichrist figure - it\nwill destroy the opposition between the ship created by a human ruler who\nwants to be god, and messengers\nof higher universes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And my interpretation of the transformation of the Whorl->The Ship isn't\nincongruous with that. The series embodies transformation and the rebirth\nof the Christ figure in Severian, why not a transformation over the years\nfrom something made to serve a self-worshipping narcisist to its opposite,\na self-sacrificing higher being?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One extra remark - to me, from the point of view of literary evolution of\nGene Wolfe, the\nTsadkiel ship seems a possible development of the idea of the ship in\n\"Silhouette\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think that the ship in Silhouette could also be a stage of\ndevelopment of the Whorl->The Ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regards\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\n\nNathan C. Tresch wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I posted this question to this site, and I was wondering if anyone here\nhad any input?\nIs the Whorl also the Universal Transport in the Solar Cycle by Gene\nWolfe?\nhttp://scifi.stackexchange.**com/q/14856/5828?sem=2\n------------------------------**------------------------------**\n------------\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-15T19:23:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nathan C. Tresch " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It can’t really be. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid, and has no sails. \nThe Ship has symmetric decks and sails. And the interior descriptions do not \nmatch at all. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Whorl is The Ship in its infancy, all of the Whorl could have been \nconverted into one off the vast storage modules or even the interior of the \nmain ship body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Also the Whorl’s life is limited. After 300 years it is still functional but \nnot in great condition. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We don't really know the extent of the repairs made before the Whorl left,\n nor do we know where it went. Maybe it left to go and undergo a \ntransformation into something closer to what The Ship became by the time \nSeverian was being transported." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the same argument could be made for any of the millions of spaceships in the universe. There is only one Ship, but it’s rather clear that there are numerous interstellar craft — the one Jonas crashed in, the ones Typhon’s lieutenants fled in, the ones that were lost in time in Cyriaca’s story, the one Barbatus and Co. flit around in...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-16T12:21:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But the same argument could be made for any of the millions of \nspaceships in the universe. There is only one Ship, but it’s rather clear \nthat there are numerous interstellar craft — the one Jonas crashed in, the \nones Typhon’s lieutenants fled in, the ones that were lost in time in Cyriaca’s \nstory, the one Barbatus and Co. flit around in..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there are two different questions being answered here. If the question\nis whether the Whorl could be a precursor to Tzadkiel's Ship I suppose the \nanswer is yes.\n \nIf the question is whether Wolfe intended The Whorl to be a precursor to \nTzadkiel's Ship I think the answer is probably not. As has been noted, there\nis not much structural or funtional similarity between these ships. \nMoreover,if Wolfe had intended to show a progression I would think he would\nhave put some sort of clues in the story to that effect, especially at the \nend of RTTW. I don't see any. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8C456B.1040706@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2012-04-16T16:14:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, Lee, it is a good way to answer -\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: But the same argument could be made for any of the millions of \nspaceships in the universe. There is only one Ship, but it’s rather clear \nthat there are numerous interstellar craft — the one Jonas crashed in, the \nones Typhon’s lieutenants fled in, the ones that were lost in time in Cyriaca’s \nstory, the one Barbatus and Co. flit around in...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there are two different questions being answered here. If the question\nis whether the Whorl could be a precursor to Tzadkiel's Ship I suppose the \nanswer is yes.\n \nIf the question is whether Wolfe intended The Whorl to be a precursor to \nTzadkiel's Ship I think the answer is probably not. As has been noted, there\nis not much structural or funtional similarity between these ships. \nMoreover,if Wolfe had intended to show a progression I would think he would\nhave put some sort of clues in the story to that effect, especially at the \nend of RTTW. I don't see any. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8C4705.6020207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-16T16:21:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "<4F8C456B.1040706@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's an idea. Does it allow for something other then itself? I don't \nsee anything right now, but it's always worth looking.\n\nSergei SOLOVIEV wrote (16-04-2012 17:14):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, Lee, it is a good way to answer -\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But the same argument could be made for any of the millions\nof spaceships in the universe. There is only one Ship, but it’s rather\nclear that there are numerous interstellar craft — the one Jonas crashed\nin, the ones Typhon’s lieutenants fled in, the ones that were lost in\ntime in Cyriaca’s story, the one Barbatus and Co. flit around in..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there are two different questions being answered here. If the\nquestion\nis whether the Whorl could be a precursor to Tzadkiel's Ship I suppose the\nanswer is yes.\n\nIf the question is whether Wolfe intended The Whorl to be a precursor to\nTzadkiel's Ship I think the answer is probably not. As has been noted, there\nis not much structural or funtional similarity between these ships.\nMoreover,if Wolfe had intended to show a progression I would think he would\nhave put some sort of clues in the story to that effect, especially at the\nend of RTTW. I don't see any. _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-16T17:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Science Fiction and Fantasy Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I can't find any more evidence than what I presented, and I tend to\nagree with you Lee that there would be more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But the same argument could be made for any of the millions\nof\nspaceships in the universe. There is only one Ship, but it’s rather clear\nthat there are numerous interstellar craft — the one Jonas crashed in, the\nones Typhon’s lieutenants fled in, the ones that were lost in time in\nCyriaca’s\nstory, the one Barbatus and Co. flit around in..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there are two different questions being answered here. If the\nquestion\nis whether the Whorl could be a precursor to Tzadkiel's Ship I suppose the\nanswer is yes.\n\nIf the question is whether Wolfe intended The Whorl to be a precursor to\nTzadkiel's Ship I think the answer is probably not. As has been noted,\nthere\nis not much structural or funtional similarity between these ships.\nMoreover,if Wolfe had intended to show a progression I would think he would\nhave put some sort of clues in the story to that effect, especially at the\nend of RTTW. I don't see any.\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }