# This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty *The Urth list — 39 messages, 9 voices, 16 Apr 2012* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Gwern Branwen *16 Apr 2012, 01:33* http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although given all the drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. ``` gwern http://www.gwern.net ``` --- ### Marc Aramini *16 Apr 2012, 02:31 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* I would love for there to be a more comprehensive outlet for his short fiction - I can't imagine what it cost that guy to track down all of it. I was aware of his drinking. It's a shame how difficult it is to find his stuff, especially since it is usually the shorter stuff that feels "amazing" when you read it. I love these intelligent, highly stylized, eccentrically conservative Catholic SF/Fantasy writers ... (are there only 2!!!!?) > --- On Sun, 4/15/12, Gwern Branwen wrote: > From: Gwern Branwen > Subject: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 6:33 PM > http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 > > http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes > > I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although given > all the > drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. > > -- > gwern > http://www.gwern.net > _______________________________________________ --- ### Gwern Branwen *16 Apr 2012, 02:34 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > I would love for there to be a more comprehensive outlet for his short fiction - I can't imagine what it cost that guy to track down all of it. The info on his estate was also interesting, as frustratingly oblique as he is. I hadn't known about the extended family (which is weird, why didn't it go to one specific relative) prompting the sale, and I had actually assumed no one had bid on it and it went to the Locus Foundation - which seems to not be the case. ``` gwern http://www.gwern.net ``` --- ### Marc Aramini *16 Apr 2012, 02:38 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* I foolishly passed on the Vance complete edition when it was being produced because I had read so much of his work already - if they did something similar with Lafferty I would almost certainly invest in it if the cost were at all reasonable, as I feel like the vast majority of his work is simply unavailable. That was a strange event, the auctioning of his estate. So somebody bought it? Maybe this grad student did. Huh. > --- On Sun, 4/15/12, Gwern Branwen wrote: > From: Gwern Branwen > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 7:34 PM > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:31 PM, > Marc Aramini > wrote: >> I would love for there to be a more comprehensive >> outlet for his short fiction - I can't imagine what it cost >> that guy to track down all of it. > The info on his estate was also interesting, as > frustratingly oblique > as he is. I hadn't known about the extended family (which is > weird, > why didn't it go to one specific relative) prompting the > sale, and I > had actually assumed no one had bid on it and it went to the > Locus > Foundation - which seems to not be the case. > > -- > gwern > http://www.gwern.net > _______________________________________________ --- ### Craig Brewer *16 Apr 2012, 03:07 · in reply to Marc Aramini* As I recall, Locus actually published that they bought it. Didn't someone share the link on here? And I would certainly buy a collection like the Vance one...even if the price was UNreasonable. (And I'm about to start catching up on the stories, Marc...been a long, busy week.) I foolishly passed on the Vance complete edition when it was being produced because I had read so much of his work already - if they did something similar with Lafferty I would almost certainly invest in it if the cost were at all reasonable, as I feel like the vast majority of his work is simply unavailable. That was a strange event, the auctioning of his estate. So somebody bought it? Maybe this grad student did. Huh. > --- On Sun, 4/15/12, Gwern Branwen wrote: > From: Gwern Branwen > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 7:34 PM > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:31 PM, > Marc Aramini > wrote: >> I would love for there to be a more comprehensive >> outlet for his short fiction - I can't imagine what it cost >> that guy to track down all of it. > The info on his estate was also interesting, as > frustratingly oblique > as he is. I hadn't known about the extended family (which is > weird, > why didn't it go to one specific relative) prompting the > sale, and I > had actually assumed no one had bid on it and it went to the > Locus > Foundation - which seems to not be the case. > > -- > gwern > http://www.gwern.net > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- ### Marc Aramini *16 Apr 2012, 04:33 · in reply to Craig Brewer* --- On Sun, 4/15/12, Craig Brewer wrote: From: Craig Brewer Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 8:07 PM As I recall, Locus actually published that they bought it. Didn't someone share the link on here? And I would certainly buy a collection like the Vance one...even if the price was UNreasonable. (And I'm about to start catching up on the stories, Marc...been a long, busy week.) You are right, even if it's an unreasonable cost. That's cool, I just wanted to get rolling on the stories that needed minimal time investment so I could spend more time in May on the "meaty" ones. So far Trip, Trap, House of Ancestors, and The Changeling are the ones most "worthy" of further discussion, but once we get to the death/doctor/island stories discussion not only does Wolfe's content become more complex, his prose style matures quite a bit as well. The Changeling is the only early story that can stylistically hold up to The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories, on a sentence level alone that archipelago story is pretty sublime. His quality output of the 70s was still definitely in the short story format, even with outstanding books like 5HOC and Peace. In the 80s New Sun and Latro would definitely tend to outweigh his short fiction output in importance. --- ### Antonin Scriabin *16 Apr 2012, 13:10 · in reply to Marc Aramini* I just discovered Lafferty a few months ago, and have been pretty lucky when it comes to finding his stuff at used bookstores. I am working through some of his short stories now (in *Nine Hundred Grandmothers)* and they are great. I particularly liked *The Six Fingers of Time*. > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > > > --- On *Sun, 4/15/12, Craig Brewer * wrote: > > > From: Craig Brewer > > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 8:07 PM > > > As I recall, Locus actually published that they bought it. Didn't > someone share the link on here? > > And I would certainly buy a collection like the Vance one...even if the > price was UNreasonable. > > (And I'm about to start catching up on the stories, Marc...been a long, > busy week.) > > You are right, even if it's an unreasonable cost. That's cool, I just > wanted to get rolling on the stories that needed minimal time investment so > I could spend more time in May on the "meaty" ones. So far Trip, Trap, > House of Ancestors, and The Changeling are the ones most "worthy" of > further discussion, but once we get to the death/doctor/island stories > discussion not only does Wolfe's content become more complex, his prose > style matures quite a bit as well. > > The Changeling is the only early story that can stylistically hold up to > The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories, on a sentence level alone > that archipelago story is pretty sublime. His quality output of the 70s > was still definitely in the short story format, even with outstanding books > like 5HOC and Peace. In the 80s New Sun and Latro would definitely tend to > outweigh his short fiction output in importance. > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Gwern Branwen *16 Apr 2012, 14:27 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > if they did something similar with Lafferty I would almost certainly invest in it if the cost were at all reasonable, as I feel like the vast majority of his work is simply unavailable. Probably: > Mike Resnick had this to say about a visit he made to Lafferty's digs in the mid-1980s: >> When I visited his house down in Oklahoma, I opened the guest closet to hang up my coat and saw a 3-foot-high pile of manuscripts. He told me they were his unsold books, he had just turned 70, and he wasn't writing another word until Virginia (Kidd, his agent) sold all of these. She found a little press up in Minnesota, but she never did sell them all. She used to cry on my shoulder that she and I and four dozen others thought he was one of the greatest short story writers alive . . . but she couldn't find 10,000 people to buy his paperbacks or even 500 to buy his signed, numbered hardcovers. > Editor and anthologist Jonathan Strahan agrees, telling me "There's certainly a LOT of unpublished work. About 16 novels and something like 80 short stories." > > ...(This bibliography is deliberately incomplete, as R. A. Lafferty wrote poetry extensively, and in the interests of space, I have omitted them here. I would like to thank Jonathan Strahan for his invaluable help in compiling this bibliography.) He had like 220 published short stories, so 'vast majority' is probably wrong there, but I don't recall 16 published novels, and then there's all the poetry and miscellaneous material. > That was a strange event, the auctioning of his estate. So somebody bought it? ?Maybe this grad student did. Huh. Oh, definitely not. If you look at the essay link, the circumstances are odd - apparently Lafferty left his estate to all his relatives, and he had a great deal of them. Splitting the meager royalties was getting annoying so they decided to sell it all for a lump sum that might be worth thinking about. Well! One hopes Gene & Rosemary have better estate planning than that... At least we don't have to worry about a huge unpublished backlog since as far as I know, Wolfe only has a few things that haven't been published judging from interviews. ``` gwern http://www.gwern.net ``` --- ### Marc Aramini *16 Apr 2012, 14:55 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Gwern Branwen wrote: > From: Gwern Branwen > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 7:27 AM > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM, > Marc Aramini > wrote: >> if they did something similar with Lafferty I would >> almost certainly invest in it if the cost were at all >> reasonable, as I feel like the vast majority of his work is >> simply unavailable. > Probably: >> Mike Resnick had this to say about a visit he made to >> Lafferty's digs in the mid-1980s: >>> When I visited his house down in Oklahoma, I opened >>> the guest closet to hang up my coat and saw a 3-foot-high >>> pile of manuscripts. He told me they were his unsold >>> books, he had just turned 70, and he wasn't writing another >>> word until Virginia (Kidd, his agent) sold all of >>> these. She found a little press up in Minnesota, but >>> she never did sell them all. She used to cry on my >>> shoulder that she and I and four dozen others thought he was >>> one of the greatest short story writers alive . . . but she >>> couldn't find 10,000 people to buy his paperbacks or even >>> 500 to buy his signed, numbered hardcovers. > Well! One hopes Gene & Rosemary have better estate > planning than > that... At least we don't have to worry about a huge > unpublished > backlog since as far as I know, Wolfe only has a few things > that > haven't been published judging from interviews. > > -- Lafferty is in many ways the opposite of strange one hit mega-successes like "Confederacy of Dunces" - with Lafferty, so much material there but for all intents and purposes unmarketable. Gene at least had one series that had true and lasting mainstream appeal, but I fear without that he might have wound up in much the same position of obscurity as Lafferty, and by no means is New Sun the sum total of what Gene had to say to the world. He had one or two early novels that never saw the light of day, but as far as I know those manuscripts no longer exist. Gene won't leave behind a bunch of unpublished stuff, unless he starts scribbling a whole lot in the next few years and it is not accepted. Fame is such a random thing. Flannery O'Connor will never be forgotten - Lafferty might. --- ### Dave Lebling *16 Apr 2012, 22:19 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* Had I known about this, I probably could have done as well as the winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since the dawn of time. Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early days, by the way. Dave Lebling > On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: > http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 > > http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes > > I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although given all the > drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. --- ### Dave Lebling *16 Apr 2012, 22:23 · in reply to Marc Aramini* I beg to differ on Wolfe in the alternate universe where he never wrote the Severian books. The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Peace, his Doctor/Island/Death stories, and whatever would have become of the Long Sun and Short Sun ideas w/o the Urth books to contaminate (in a good way) them would have ensured his place in the pantheon regardless. Dave Lebling > On 4/16/2012 10:55 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Gwern Branwen wrote: >> From: Gwern Branwen >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" >> Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 7:27 AM >> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM, >> Marc Aramini >> wrote: >>> if they did something similar with Lafferty I would >>> almost certainly invest in it if the cost were at all >>> reasonable, as I feel like the vast majority of his work is >>> simply unavailable. >> Probably: >>> Mike Resnick had this to say about a visit he made to >>> Lafferty's digs in the mid-1980s: >>>> When I visited his house down in Oklahoma, I opened >>>> the guest closet to hang up my coat and saw a 3-foot-high >>>> pile of manuscripts. He told me they were his unsold >>>> books, he had just turned 70, and he wasn't writing another >>>> word until Virginia (Kidd, his agent) sold all of >>>> these. She found a little press up in Minnesota, but >>>> she never did sell them all. She used to cry on my >>>> shoulder that she and I and four dozen others thought he was >>>> one of the greatest short story writers alive . . . but she >>>> couldn't find 10,000 people to buy his paperbacks or even >>>> 500 to buy his signed, numbered hardcovers. >> Well! One hopes Gene& Rosemary have better estate >> planning than >> that... At least we don't have to worry about a huge >> unpublished >> backlog since as far as I know, Wolfe only has a few things >> that >> haven't been published judging from interviews. >> >> -- > Lafferty is in many ways the opposite of strange one hit mega-successes like "Confederacy of Dunces" - with Lafferty, so much material there but for all intents and purposes unmarketable. > > Gene at least had one series that had true and lasting mainstream appeal, but I fear without that he might have wound up in much the same position of obscurity as Lafferty, and by no means is New Sun the sum total of what Gene had to say to the world. He had one or two early novels that never saw the light of day, but as far as I know those manuscripts no longer exist. Gene won't leave behind a bunch of unpublished stuff, unless he starts scribbling a whole lot in the next few years and it is not accepted. > > Fame is such a random thing. Flannery O'Connor will never be forgotten - Lafferty might. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *16 Apr 2012, 22:41 · in reply to Dave Lebling* Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I happened to have in my magazine collection. > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: > From: Dave Lebling > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 3:19 PM > Had I known about this, I probably > could have done as well as the > winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since > the dawn of time. > > Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early > days, by the way. > > Dave Lebling > > On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: >> http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 >> >> http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes >> >> I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although >> given all the >> drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dave Lebling *16 Apr 2012, 23:59 · in reply to Marc Aramini* I have most of the original magazines still. I might be exaggerating a bit when I say I could beat the 220 or whatever, but I have a lot of Lafferty. Until Fifth Head of Cerberus, I would say I esteemed him more highly than Wolfe. (Fool that I am, I didn't read Peace until much later.) I have all of the "major" SF mags going back to about 1963 or so. Dave Lebling > On 4/16/2012 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" >> Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 3:19 PM >> Had I known about this, I probably >> could have done as well as the >> winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since >> the dawn of time. >> >> Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early >> days, by the way. >> >> Dave Lebling >> >> On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: >>> http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 >>> >>> http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes >>> >>> I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although >>> given all the >>> drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 13:51 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It is two distinct novellas, correct? > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are > exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's > never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to > Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've > read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of > Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I > happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" >> Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 3:19 PM >> Had I known about this, I probably >> could have done as well as the >> winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since >> the dawn of time. >> >> Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early >> days, by the way. >> >> Dave Lebling >> >> On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: >>> http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 > http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes >>> I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although >>> given all the >>> drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 15:02 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Hey folks, I too saw this in Lafferty google alerts and was very excited as I write a Lafferty blog in addition to my Wolfe blog. I interacted extensively with his article here: http://antsofgodarequeerfish.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/would-that-we-all-could-employ-our-own.html Suffice it to say, Lafferty himself spoke about his heavy drinking and it's no surprise at all to fans. Not sure why he made a big deal of it. But a great article regardless. Glad to know there are other Wolfe fans who dig the Laff. Oh, and you may be interested to know, if you haven't read it already, that Wolfe called Laff a literal 'genius' and said he was maybe the most original writer in history of literature: http://antsofgodarequeerfish.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/its-great-to-be-young-and-in-danger.html And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and one below Wolfe, I think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. -DOJP > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: > Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * > Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It > is two distinct novellas, correct? > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: >> Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes >> are exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. >> >> I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's >> never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to >> Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've >> read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of >> Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I >> happened to have in my magazine collection. >> >> --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: >>> From: Dave Lebling >>> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty --- ### Marc Aramini *17 Apr 2012, 15:07 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological ruminations. Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of Apocalypses was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It is two distinct novellas, correct? On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: Do you really have all those short stories? ?All the collected volumes are exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. ?I've read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I happened to have in my magazine collection. > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: > From: Dave Lebling > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 3:19 PM > Had I known about this, I probably > could have done as well as the > winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since > the dawn of time. > > Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early > days, by the way. > > Dave Lebling > > On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: >> http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 >> >> http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes >> >> I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although >> given all the >> drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net -----Inline Attachment Follows----- --- ### Marc Aramini *17 Apr 2012, 15:13 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen wrote: And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and?ONE BELOW?Wolfe, I think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. -DOJP Oh my!?Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure to sustain a long narrative of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to the opinion that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. Perhaps some of his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but ........... okay, different strokes for different folks. --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 15:14 · in reply to Marc Aramini* "And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and one below Wolfe, I think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction." I have only read *The Anubis Gates, *but hope to read more by Powers soon. *The Anubis Gates* is one of the best time-travel novels I have read; he really takes pains to make sure the story is well constructed, and that paradoxes aren't left hanging or resolved cheaply. *Last Call* is supposed to be one of his best, but I haven't read it yet. > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological > ruminations. > > Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth > Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who > always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into > some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current > champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short > story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling > like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM > > > Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * > Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It > is two distinct novellas, correct? > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are > exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's > never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to > Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've > read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of > Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I > happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling > > wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 15:16 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately *Fourth Mansions *and *The Devil is Dead *are both missing from my collection. Hopefully they aren't too hard to track down. > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological > ruminations. > > Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth > Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who > always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into > some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current > champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short > story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling > like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM > > > Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * > Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It > is two distinct novellas, correct? > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are > exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's > never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to > Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've > read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of > Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I > happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling > > wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty --- ### Marc Aramini *17 Apr 2012, 15:22 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Shouldn't be too hard if you are willing to invest about $20. My copy of the Devil is Dead was from a used book store and its got a NASTY stain on it ... until I find another I won't get rid of it, though - I've had no luck finding his stuff in used book stores. (People in the Southwest don't read anything but junk). I am trying to remember if it's Fourth Mansions or Past Master that had such a wonderful chapter title ... "I think that I will dismember the world with my hands". In my angry adolescence I really related to that chapter title. Luckily I've grown up, but I still love that title. --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 8:16 AM Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately Fourth Mansions and The Devil is Dead are both missing from my collection. Hopefully they aren't too hard to track down. On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological ruminations. Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of Apocalypses was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It is two distinct novellas, correct? On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: Do you really have all those short stories? ?All the collected volumes are exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. ?I've read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I happened to have in my magazine collection. > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling wrote: > From: Dave Lebling > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Monday, April 16, 2012, 3:19 PM > Had I known about this, I probably > could have done as well as the > winner. Lafferty has been one of my favorite authors since > the dawn of time. > > Lafferty's alcoholism was no secret even back in the early > days, by the way. > > Dave Lebling > > On 4/15/2012 9:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: >> http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=18066 >> >> http://www.grantvillegazette.com/articles/Secret_Crocodiles_and_Strange_Doings__or_Sometimes >> >> I hadn't read about his alcoholism before, although >> given all the >> drinking in his stories, it doesn't surprise me. > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net -----Inline Attachment Follows----- -----Inline Attachment Follows----- --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 15:28 · in reply to Marc Aramini* I used to live in Albuquerque, and I can vouch for the fact that East Coast used book stores can be much more solid! The prices aren't so bad now that I look at it for those two Lafferty titles, though I am amused by the prices for the results of "Fourth Mansions" at Barnes and Noble: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fourth-mansions-r-a-lafferty/1001439260?ean=9781880448960 > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Shouldn't be too hard if you are willing to invest about $20. My copy of > the Devil is Dead was from a used book store and its got a NASTY stain on > it ... until I find another I won't get rid of it, though - I've had no > luck finding his stuff in used book stores. (People in the Southwest don't > read anything but junk). > > I am trying to remember if it's Fourth Mansions or Past Master that had > such a wonderful chapter title ... "I think that I will dismember the world > with my hands". In my angry adolescence I really related to that chapter > title. Luckily I've grown up, but I still love that title. > > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 8:16 AM > > > Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately *Fourth Mansions *and *The Devil > is Dead *are both missing from my collection. Hopefully they aren't too > hard to track down. > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological > ruminations. > > Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth > Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who > always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into > some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current > champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short > story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling > like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin > * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > > > > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM > > > Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * > Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It > is two distinct novellas, correct? > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are > exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's > never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to > Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've > read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of > Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I > happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling > > wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Apr 2012, 15:42 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Antonin Scriabin wrote: Apocalypses is my favorite Lafferty book, two short novels unrelated except for the general theme of end-of-the-world. "Where have you been, Sandaliotis?" is about the sudden appearance of a huge island (or is it?) in the Mediterranean, and the world's greatest detective (or is he?) attempting to find out why before it's too late. "The three armageddons of Eniscorthy Sweeney" is an alternate world in which the great disasters of the 20th century never happened ... except in the art of an incredibly charismatic man. Only, they seem to threaten to become real retroactively. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 15:47 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Heh, heh, knew I'd raise some hackles. I totally agree that Wolfe is the more disciplined writer (*maybe* also more consistent) - it's just that Lafferty's fiction, at its best, speaks forth like something primal - his main roots are oral and I think that might be what makes the main difference - that being the voice for his wildly unbelievable and amazing worldview. Also, though, the more you read him the more you realise the INCREDIBLE verbal control he often has - his best fiction is very tight and disciplined and exquisitely well honed and crafted - really surpassing the best of Wolfe I think. Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant step below Laff. However, I have no qualms with people thinking them equal or reversed. I can't expect everyone to have the gifted insight into literature I (and Wolfe) possess. -DOJP :) > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote: > > > > And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and ONE BELOW Wolfe, I > think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic > writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. > > -DOJP > > Oh my! Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure to sustain > a long narrative of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to > the opinion that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. > Perhaps some of his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but > ........... > > okay, different strokes for different folks. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 15:48 · in reply to Marc Aramini* That's chapter one of Fourth Mansions. I love chapter three's title too: 'If They Can Kill You, I Can Kill You Worse'. -DOJP > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > Shouldn't be too hard if you are willing to invest about $20. My copy of > the Devil is Dead was from a used book store and its got a NASTY stain on > it ... until I find another I won't get rid of it, though - I've had no > luck finding his stuff in used book stores. (People in the Southwest don't > read anything but junk). > > I am trying to remember if it's Fourth Mansions or Past Master that had > such a wonderful chapter title ... "I think that I will dismember the world > with my hands". In my angry adolescence I really related to that chapter > title. Luckily I've grown up, but I still love that title. > > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 8:16 AM > > > Thanks for the insight. Unfortunately *Fourth Mansions *and *The Devil > is Dead *are both missing from my collection. Hopefully they aren't too > hard to track down. > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Yes, they are very unrelated except with perhaps some eschatological > ruminations. > > Well, they are okay, but not as good as The Devil Is Dead or Fourth > Mansions - some memorable scenes (like a more than natural reporter who > always wanted to beat the heavyweight champion of the world morphing into > some kind of big pugilist with impossible reach to defeat the current > champion) but overall not Lafferty's best. He really is best at the short > story level or when doing something weird with langauge and storytelling > like The Devil is Dead. For sure worth reading, but not "great". > > --- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Antonin Scriabin > * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > > > > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 6:51 AM > > > Not to go too off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion of * > Apocalypses* was. It is the last Lafferty I own that I have to read. It > is two distinct novellas, correct? > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > Do you really have all those short stories? All the collected volumes are > exorbitantly expensive except for the most common one, 900 Grandmothers. > > I have always wrestled with the decision to purchase them or not - it's > never a tough decision with Wolfe but I am not quite as devoted to > Lafferty, though someday I really want to read the bulk of his work. I've > read Past Master, Fourth Mansions, Apocalypses, The Devil is Dead, Reefs of > Earth, and 900 Grandmothers and very little else except the odd story I > happened to have in my magazine collection. > > --- On Mon, 4/16/12, Dave Lebling > > wrote: >> From: Dave Lebling >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 15:50 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* I would have to agree that's it's underrated. It's really up there with his best I think. But it's potent and woolly - not for beginners perhaps. -DOJP > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Antonin Scriabin wrote: > > Apocalypses is my favorite Lafferty book, two short novels unrelated > except for the general theme of end-of-the-world. > > "Where have you been, Sandaliotis?" is about the sudden appearance of > a huge island (or is it?) in the Mediterranean, and the world's > greatest detective (or is he?) attempting to find out why before it's > too late. > > "The three armageddons of Eniscorthy Sweeney" is an alternate world in > which the great disasters of the 20th century never happened ... > except in the art of an incredibly charismatic man. Only, they seem to > threaten to become real retroactively. > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jerry Friedman *17 Apr 2012, 17:06 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Marc Aramini marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: >> --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote: >>> And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and?ONE BELOW?Wolfe, Oh no no. Lafferty has "beautiful moments and bad quarters of an hour." >>> I think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. I did like /Last Call/ a great deal. Not /On Stranger Tides/ so much. >> Oh my!?Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure to sustain a long narrative Or even a short narrative. >> of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to the opinion that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. Perhaps some of his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but ........... >> >> okay, different strokes for different folks. Apparently. > From: Daniel Petersen > > Heh, heh, knew I'd raise some hackles. ?I totally agree that Wolfe is the more disciplined writer (maybe also more consistent) No, Lafferty's pretty consistent, at least on the scale of fifteen minutes or more. > ?- it's just that Lafferty's fiction, at its best, speaks forth like something primal I'd have said the other way around. > - his main roots are oral and I think that might be what makes the main difference - that being the voice for his wildly unbelievable and amazing worldview. ?Also, though, the more you read him the more you realise the INCREDIBLE verbal control he often has - his best fiction is very tight and disciplined and exquisitely well honed and crafted - really surpassing the best of Wolfe I think. ?Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant step below Laff. I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow youthful enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). > However, I have no qualms with people thinking them equal or reversed. ?I can't expect everyone to have the gifted insight into literature I (and Wolfe) possess. And Damon Knight, apparently. > -DOJP > :) Yep. Jerry Friedman --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 17:33 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant step below Laff. I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow youthful enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). I don't think it was 'youthful' for Wolfe - they both had their first stuff published in the 1960s - Wolfe just barely behind Laff. If I set aside my hyperbole (and my personal preference for Lafferty overall over Wolfe overall), then I'd say they actually match for me in terms of literary greatness - they both have their incredible highs and lows and if I place the very best of each right next to each other - it can be pretty close at times. (Lafferty's still a level above.) Hey! How'd that get there? Can't control my parenthetical thoughts just now. -DOJP >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Marc Aramini marcaramini at yahoo.com> >> wrote: >>> --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and ONE BELOW Wolfe, > Oh no no. Lafferty has "beautiful moments and bad quarters of an hour." >>>> I think is very worth checking out for another highly original Catholic >>>> writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. > I did like /Last Call/ a great deal. Not /On Stranger Tides/ so much. >>> Oh my! Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure to >>> sustain a long narrative > Or even a short narrative. >>> of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to the opinion >>> that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. Perhaps some of >>> his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but ........... >>> >>> okay, different strokes for different folks. > Apparently. >> From: Daniel Petersen >> >> Heh, heh, knew I'd raise some hackles. I totally agree that Wolfe is the >> more disciplined writer (maybe also more consistent) > No, Lafferty's pretty consistent, at least on the scale of fifteen minutes > or more. >> - it's just that Lafferty's fiction, at its best, speaks forth like >> something primal > I'd have said the other way around. >> - his main roots are oral and I think that might be what makes the main >> difference - that being the voice for his wildly unbelievable and amazing >> worldview. Also, though, the more you read him the more you realise the >> INCREDIBLE verbal control he often has - his best fiction is very tight and >> disciplined and exquisitely well honed and crafted - really surpassing the >> best of Wolfe I think. Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant >> step below Laff. > I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow youthful > enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). >> However, I have no qualms with people thinking them equal or reversed. I >> can't expect everyone to have the gifted insight into literature I (and >> Wolfe) possess. > And Damon Knight, apparently. >> -DOJP >> :) > Yep. > > Jerry Friedman > _______________________________________________ --- ### Sergei SOLOVIEV *17 Apr 2012, 18:09 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? Sergei Soloviev > Daniel Petersen wrote: > Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant step below Laff. > > I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow youthful > enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). > > > I don't think it was 'youthful' for Wolfe - they both had their first > stuff published in the 1960s - Wolfe just barely behind Laff. If I > set aside my hyperbole (and my personal preference for Lafferty > overall over Wolfe overall), then I'd say they actually match for me > in terms of literary greatness - they both have their incredible highs > and lows and if I place the very best of each right next to each other > - it can be pretty close at times. (Lafferty's still a level above.) > Hey! How'd that get there? Can't control my parenthetical thoughts > just now. > > -DOJP > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Jerry Friedman > > wrote: > > >On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Marc Aramini > marcaramini at yahoo.com > wrote: > >>--- On Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen > danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com > > wrote: > >>>And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and ONE > BELOW Wolfe, > > Oh no no. Lafferty has "beautiful moments and bad quarters of an > hour." > > >>>I think is very worth checking out for another highly original > Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. > > I did like /Last Call/ a great deal. Not /On Stranger Tides/ so much. > > >>Oh my! Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure > to sustain a long narrative > > Or even a short narrative. > > >>of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to the > opinion that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. > Perhaps some of his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but > ........... > >> > >>okay, different strokes for different folks. > > Apparently. > > >From: Daniel Petersen > > > > >Heh, heh, knew I'd raise some hackles. I totally agree that > Wolfe is the more disciplined writer (maybe also more consistent) > > No, Lafferty's pretty consistent, at least on the scale of fifteen > minutes or more. > > > - it's just that Lafferty's fiction, at its best, speaks forth > like something primal > > I'd have said the other way around. > > >- his main roots are oral and I think that might be what makes > the main difference - that being the voice for his wildly > unbelievable and amazing worldview. Also, though, the more you > read him the more you realise the INCREDIBLE verbal control he > often has - his best fiction is very tight and disciplined and > exquisitely well honed and crafted - really surpassing the best of > Wolfe I think. Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant > step below Laff. > > I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow > youthful enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). > > >However, I have no qualms with people thinking them equal or > reversed. I can't expect everyone to have the gifted insight into > literature I (and Wolfe) possess. > > And Damon Knight, apparently. > > > >-DOJP > >:) > > Yep. > > Jerry Friedman > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Apr 2012, 18:11 · in reply to Sergei SOLOVIEV* > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: > What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? Well, one would be his female characters. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 18:21 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Would you care to elaborate? I have always had a hard time swallowing this critique, regardless of the author. It seems to imply that female characters in fiction should act according to some preexisting template, and that it is a failing on the part of the author to not follow that template. Fictional characters "can" act however the author wants or needs them to, correct? If Wolfe (or any other author) chooses to have all his female characters be very similar to one another and display the same quirks or character flaws, that is just repetitive writing, which is a very different problem than "not knowing how to write women characters". Put another way; perhaps we never hear of women authors who "can't write men" because it is less ingrained that male characters *ought* to act a certain way. > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: >> What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? > Well, one would be his female characters. > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Apr 2012, 18:27 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* It is not that Wolfe's female characters fail to follow some template -- rather that they _do_ follow a template, the Goddess-Virgin-Whore cliche. His female characters do not seem to have independent (of male characters) personalities and existence. (On the rare occasions you get two females talking alone to each other it is more often than not about the men.) > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: > Would you care to elaborate? I have always had a hard time swallowing this > critique, regardless of the author. It seems to imply that female > characters in fiction should act according to some preexisting template, and > that it is a failing on the part of the author to not follow that template. > Fictional characters "can" act however the author wants or needs them to, > correct? If Wolfe (or any other author) chooses to have all his female > characters be very similar to one another and display the same quirks or > character flaws, that is just repetitive writing, which is a very different > problem than "not knowing how to write women characters". Put another way; > perhaps we never hear of women authors who "can't write men" because it is > less ingrained that male characters ought to act a certain way. > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote: >> Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: >>> What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? >> Well, one would be his female characters. >> >> -- >> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *17 Apr 2012, 18:34 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* How would you classify Cassie and Holly Hollander? Cassie is concerned with men to an extent, but it isn't the most defining part of her personality. The latter is, in my opinion, one of the more unique of Wolfe's first person narrators. > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > It is not that Wolfe's female characters fail to follow some template > -- rather that they _do_ follow a template, the Goddess-Virgin-Whore > cliche. His female characters do not seem to have independent (of male > characters) personalities and existence. (On the rare occasions you > get two females talking alone to each other it is more often than not > about the men.) > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: >> Would you care to elaborate? I have always had a hard time swallowing >> this >> critique, regardless of the author. It seems to imply that female >> characters in fiction should act according to some preexisting template, >> and >> that it is a failing on the part of the author to not follow that >> template. >> Fictional characters "can" act however the author wants or needs them to, >> correct? If Wolfe (or any other author) chooses to have all his female >> characters be very similar to one another and display the same quirks or >> character flaws, that is just repetitive writing, which is a very >> different >> problem than "not knowing how to write women characters". Put another >> way; >> perhaps we never hear of women authors who "can't write men" because it >> is >> less ingrained that male characters ought to act a certain way. >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >> wrote: >>> Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: >>>> What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? >>> Well, one would be his female characters. >>> >>> -- >>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Sergei SOLOVIEV *17 Apr 2012, 18:38 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* I don't completely agree - yes, the point of view is usually very external, not much deep psychology, but they are mostly "adequate", in difference from caricatures of Vance or ivory maidens of Tolkien - and who of the SF and Fantasy writers (I mean men) created good female characters? usually GW gives only hints to subtleties of women psychology, but they do not sound wrong to me so, I'd say his art here is in the middle - By the way, how do you (all of you) interpret the end of "The Doctor of Death Island"? Is the hero killed by his ex-wife? Sergei Soloviev > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: > >> What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? >> > Well, one would be his female characters. > > --- ### Marc Aramini *17 Apr 2012, 18:49 · in reply to Sergei SOLOVIEV* If you can wait about thirty more write ups I will certainly address that issue at length! Should be about ... (optimistic) three weeks- four weeks. > --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: > From: Sergei SOLOVIEV > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 11:38 AM > I don't completely agree - > > yes, the point of view is usually very external, not much > deep psychology, but they are mostly "adequate", > in difference from caricatures of Vance or ivory maidens of > Tolkien - and who of the SF and Fantasy > writers (I mean men) created good female characters? > > usually GW gives only hints to subtleties of women > psychology, but they do not sound wrong to me > > so, I'd say his art here is in the middle - > > By the way, how do you (all of you) interpret the end of > "The Doctor of Death Island"? Is the > hero killed by his ex-wife? > > Sergei Soloviev > > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: >> ??? >>> What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? >>> ? ??? >> Well, one would be his female characters. >> >> ??? > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Apr 2012, 18:49 · in reply to Sergei SOLOVIEV* OK, I've made my point and I don't intend to spend a lot of effort defending it, but... > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: > who of the SF and Fantasy > writers (I mean men) created good female characters? Off the top of my head, I'd name Ted Sturgeon and Chip Delany, both of whom have written amazing female characters. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Marc Aramini *17 Apr 2012, 18:52 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Chip Delany? I was just about to say something about how the SF author that avoids objectifying women has a very good ingrained reason NOT to objectify them, but Delany will always be about that slightly vulnerable but very sexually liberated young male hero/outcast. Funny you mentioned his name. Trying to think about his female characters now. > --- On Tue, 4/17/12, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > Subject: Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: R.A. Lafferty > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 11:49 AM > OK, I've made my point and I don't > intend to spend a lot of effort > defending it, but... > > > Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: >> who of the SF and Fantasy >> writers (I mean men) created good female characters? > Off the top of my head, I'd name Ted Sturgeon and Chip > Delany, both of > whom have written amazing female characters. > > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *17 Apr 2012, 19:06 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > Marc Aramini wrote: > Delany will always be about that slightly vulnerable but very sexually liberated young > male hero/outcast. Have you read anything of his more recent than _Dhalgren_? ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Dave Lebling *17 Apr 2012, 22:27 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* Powers is one of my favorite authors. He has a new book out, "Hide Me Among the Graves," which is a sequel to "The Stress of Her Regard," one of his best. (The other bests: "Declare" and "Last Call." "The Anubis Gates" is a near-best.) I go along with the recommendations for Swanwick, Crowley, Vance, Shepard, Tiptree, Smith in-genre. Pynchon, Borges, Nabokov, and O'Brien should be read by any literate person, not just genre fans. Dave Lebling > On 4/17/2012 11:02 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and one below Wolfe, > I think is very worth checking out for another highly original > Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. > > -DOJP --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 Apr 2012, 23:08 · in reply to Sergei SOLOVIEV* Don't get me wrong - I don't encounter 'lows' in Wolfe terribly often. Maybe 'mids' a bit more. I think one 'low' or 'mid' would be when his narrative loses its drive - last book of Long Sun is surely a classic example (a series I totally love regardless of that - and the very ending picks up again). I haven't analysed how or why this happens. Another low or mid would be the 'coldness' that many have remarked in Wolfe's viewpoint or voice or something - it's alienating somehow to the reader. E.g.: http://examinedlife.typepad.com/johnbelle/2003/10/gene_wolfe.html. To some degree this is just something to get used to - or was for me, and then I actually began to feel a lot of warmth in certain ways at certain times - most especially from the likes of Silk and Horn. Anyway, it's not really a low or a flaw - it's more a 'trade off' for other marvels and joys Wolfe gives. Not every writer can achieve every literary effect. I just finished *Castleview* the other day and some of the dialogue in there is a true low in Wolfe to me. (Many highs are in there as well.) In fact, dialogue and the way people speak tend to be proving grounds in Wolfe's craft where he either shines in genius and skill or practically falls on his face. -DOJP > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote: > What are the "lows" of Wolfe, to your opinion? > > Sergei Soloviev > > Daniel Petersen wrote: >> Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant step below Laff. >> I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow youthful >> enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). >> >> I don't think it was 'youthful' for Wolfe - they both had their first >> stuff published in the 1960s - Wolfe just barely behind Laff. If I set >> aside my hyperbole (and my personal preference for Lafferty overall over >> Wolfe overall), then I'd say they actually match for me in terms of >> literary greatness - they both have their incredible highs and lows and if >> I place the very best of each right next to each other - it can be pretty >> close at times. (Lafferty's still a level above.) Hey! How'd that get >> there? Can't control my parenthetical thoughts just now. >> >> -DOJP >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Jerry Friedman > jerry_friedman at yahoo.**com >> wrote: >> >> >On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Marc Aramini >> marcaramini at yahoo.com **> wrote: >> >>--- On Tue, 4/17/12, Daniel Petersen >> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.**com >> >> >> wrote: >> >>>And Tim Powers, two steps below Laff literarily, and ONE >> BELOW Wolfe, >> Oh no no. Lafferty has "beautiful moments and bad quarters of an >> hour." >> >>>I think is very worth checking out for another highly original >> Catholic writer of wonderfully bizarre fiction. >> >> I did like /Last Call/ a great deal. Not /On Stranger Tides/ so much. >> >>Oh my! Well, I will admit Lafferty is a genius, but his failure >> to sustain a long narrative >> Or even a short narrative. >> >>of such consistently high quality definitely leads me to the >> opinion that Wolfe is the more disciplined and consistent writer. >> Perhaps some of his stylistic explorations were more mundane, but >> ........... >> >> >> >>okay, different strokes for different folks. >> >> Apparently. >> >From: Daniel Petersen >> >> > >> >Heh, heh, knew I'd raise some hackles. I totally agree that >> Wolfe is the more disciplined writer (maybe also more consistent) >> No, Lafferty's pretty consistent, at least on the scale of fifteen >> minutes or more. >> > - it's just that Lafferty's fiction, at its best, speaks forth >> like something primal >> I'd have said the other way around. >> >- his main roots are oral and I think that might be what makes >> the main difference - that being the voice for his wildly >> unbelievable and amazing worldview. Also, though, the more you >> read him the more you realise the INCREDIBLE verbal control he >> often has - his best fiction is very tight and disciplined and >> exquisitely well honed and crafted - really surpassing the best of >> Wolfe I think. Wolfe definitely considered himself a significant >> step below Laff. >> I can only attribute this to modesty and a failure to outgrow >> youthful enthusiasm (much as I haven't outgrown Tolkien). >> >However, I have no qualms with people thinking them equal or >> reversed. I can't expect everyone to have the gifted insight into >> literature I (and Wolfe) possess. >> >> And Damon Knight, apparently. >> > >> >-DOJP >> >:) >> Yep. >> Jerry Friedman >> ______________________________**_________________ ---