{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6237", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6237, "subject": "If I already like ...", "messages": 68, "voices": 17, "first": "2012-04-17T17:47:43+00:00", "last": "2012-04-26T11:29:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T17:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T17:50:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch\n\nOn Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\" \nwrote:\n\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T17:56:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looks great! I was actually paging through *Little, Big* the other day at\na bookstore. It seemed interesting, I will definitely try out the Aegypt\nbooks soon. Wikipedia says it is a tetralogy, the most recent published in\n2007 ... is it sort of an \"Urth of the New Sun\" thing, or does the fourth\nbook follow right on the other three's heels?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nJohn crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch\n\nOn Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\" \nwrote:\n\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T17:58:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you like Powers you should check out his buddy and occasional\ncollaborator James Blaylock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Antonin Scriabin\n wrote:\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for example.\nI know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<011601cd1ccc$bc3f3ee0$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Swanwick?\n\n hartshorn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----- wrote:\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for \nexample.\nI know there has to be more!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:07:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<011601cd1ccc$bc3f3ee0$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh. Lucius Shepard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM, pinlighter wrote:\nMichael Swanwick?\n\n? hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample.\nI know there has to be more!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334689683.7505.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with Little, Big, although he's never written anything bad since Beasts. For some reason Crowley put the climax of the Aegypt series in the third book, and described the fourth book as an \"extended coda\", if I remember correctly. It's still much better than The Urth of the New Sun in my opinion, though.\n\nIt's not possible that you've read Wolfe, MacDonald, and Tolkien without reading C. S. Lewis, right?\n\nYou might try Jack Vance, probably starting with \"The Moon Moth\". My reasons for disliking him are similar to my reasons for disliking Lafferty, which obviously don't apply for you, and Wolfe admires him greatly. He's another writer with an unflagging imagination.\n\nBorges of course. Start with the stories written from 1939 to 1949 (but not the Parodi stories).\n\nWhich brings me to Nabokov, who as I occasionally say is the most Wolfean writer outside sf (or Wolfe is the most Nabokovian sf writer). Pnin and Lolita are his two classics in the literary tradition. Pale Fire (my favorite) has more fantasy. ?A fan of Lafferty might especially like Invitation to a Beheading. There were some interesting comments on two of?Nabokov's short stories, \"The Visit to the Museum\" and \"Details of a Sunset\", on NABOKV-L today. If anyone here has read either of those, I'd be interested in their thoughts.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin kierkegaurdian at gmail.com\nOn Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nJohn crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch\nOn Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like? This email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden authors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I initially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for example. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334689947.74978.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:12:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<011601cd1ccc$bc3f3ee0$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really like some of Swanwick's stuff but not all of it - it's been hit and miss with me. He's a super nice guy, though, I got to talk to him at the Wolfe event for a while. I liked Stations of the Tide and Iron Dragon's Daughter and some of his short fiction, but Jack Faust left me feeling very cold.\n\nHow do you feel about mainstream literary figures? Flan O'Brien, Alasdair Gray's Lanark, Yukio Mishima's Sea of Fertility or The Temple of the Golden Pavillion, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov? \n\nGoing the extreme opposite route with fantasists, how about R Scott Bakker or Steven Erikson or Glen Cook? Then the old standbys like Clark Ashton Smith and Vance or the short fiction of Zelazny and Harlan Ellison and Tiptree Jr and Cordwainer Smith. (not necessarily like Lafferty, though)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/17/12, pinlighter wrote:\nFrom: pinlighter \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 12:02 PM\nMichael Swanwick?\n\n???hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what\nelse will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering\nwhat other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for\nthose mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some\ntime ago, for example.\nI know there has to be more!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334690069.60184.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689683.7505.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/17/12, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nWhich brings me to Nabokov, who as I occasionally say is the most Wolfean writer outside sf (or Wolfe is the most Nabokovian sf writer). Pnin and Lolita are his two classics in the literary tradition. Pale Fire (my favorite) has more fantasy. ?A fan of Lafferty might especially like Invitation to a Beheading. There were some interesting comments on two of?Nabokov's short stories, \"The Visit to the Museum\" and \"Details of a Sunset\", on NABOKV-L today. If anyone here has read either of those, I'd be interested in their thoughts.\n\nI have read all of Nabokov, but I must pull out my books and take another look, it's been a while." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:14:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689947.74978.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am so embarrassed that I didn't name Cordwainer Smith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI really like some of Swanwick's stuff but not all of it - it's been hit and miss with me. He's a super nice guy, though, I got to talk to him at the Wolfe event for a while. “I liked Stations of the Tide and Iron Dragon's Daughter and some of his short fiction, but Jack Faust left me feeling very cold.\n\nHow do you feel about mainstream literary figures” “Flan O'Brien, Alasdair Gray's Lanark, Yukio Mishima's Sea of Fertility or The Temple of the Golden Pavillion, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov”\n\nGoing the extreme opposite route with fantasists, how about R Scott Bakker or Steven Erikson or Glen Cook? “Then the old standbys like Clark Ashton Smith and Vance or the short fiction of Zelazny and Harlan Ellison and Tiptree Jr and Cordwainer Smith. (not necessarily like Lafferty, though)\n\n--- On Tue, 4/17/12, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: pinlighter \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 12:02 PM\nMichael Swanwick”\n\n???hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what\nelse will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering\nwhat other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for\nthose mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some\ntime ago, for example.\nI know there has to be more!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:16:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689683.7505.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jack Vance and Borges are both on my radar. I actually have 10 or so of\nVance's novels (I grabbed whatever I could find after reading Wolfe's\npraise in *The Castle of the Otter*) ... I am just not sure which to pick\nup first. I think I have some middle installments of some of his series, I\nwill have to take inventory soon. Of course I am a big fan of Lewis ([?]),\nthe Space Trilogy was one of my favorites in my teenage years. Thanks for\nthe Nabokov recommend; I have never read anything by him, and now I have\nall the more reason to!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with *Little,\nBig, *although he's never written anything bad since *Beasts*. For some\nreason Crowley put the climax of the Aegypt series in the third book, and\ndescribed the fourth book as an \"extended coda\", if I remember correctly.\nIt's still much better than *The Urth of the New Sun* in my opinion,\nthough.\n\nIt's not possible that you've read Wolfe, MacDonald, and Tolkien without\nreading C. S. Lewis, right?\n\nYou might try Jack Vance, probably starting with \"The Moon Moth\". My\nreasons for disliking him are similar to my reasons for disliking Lafferty,\nwhich obviously don't apply for you, and Wolfe admires him greatly. He's\nanother writer with an unflagging imagination.\n\nBorges of course. Start with the stories written from 1939 to 1949 (but\nnot the Parodi stories).\n\nWhich brings me to Nabokov, who as I occasionally say is the most Wolfean\nwriter outside sf (or Wolfe is the most Nabokovian sf writer). *Pnin*and\n*Lolita* are his two classics in the literary tradition. *Pale Fire* (my\nfavorite) has more fantasy. A fan of Lafferty might especially like *Invitation\nto a Beheading*.* * There were some interesting comments on two\nof Nabokov's short stories, \"The Visit to the Museum\" and \"Details of a\nSunset\", on NABOKV-L today. If anyone here has read either of those, I'd\nbe interested in their thoughts.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin kierkegaurdian at gmail.com\nLooks great! I was actually paging through *Little, Big* the other day\nat a bookstore. It seemed interesting, I will definitely try out the\nAegypt books soon. Wikipedia says it is a tetralogy, the most recent\npublished in 2007 ... is it sort of an \"Urth of the New Sun\" thing, or does\nthe fourth book follow right on the other three's heels?\n\n On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nJohn crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch\n\nOn Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\" \nwrote:\n\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:28:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689947.74978.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have *The Rediscovery of Man *by Cordwainer Smith; I read one or two of\nthe stories some time ago and enjoyed them, but haven't looked through it\nfor a while.\n\nSteven Erikson is definitely entertaining; he isn't the wordsmith that some\nof these other authors are, but he can write a pretty fascinating (and\nlarge) plot, has good humor throughout his books, and has some of the best\n(and most emotional) action sequences I have come across. I would never\ndefend it as great literature, but his *Malazan Book of the Fallen* is\ndefinitely my top \"guilty pleasure\" fantasy. I know he is a big fan of\nGlen Cook, but from what I have read, *Malazan *is superior to Cook's *Black\nCompany.*\n\n\"Flan O'Brien, Alasdair Gray's Lanark, Yukio Mishima's Sea of Fertility or\nThe Temple of the Golden Pavillion, Proust.\"\n\nI haven't read any of these, though I am aware of most of them. I am a big\nfan of William T. Vollmann and Thomas Pynchon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI really like some of Swanwick's stuff but not all of it - it's been hit\nand miss with me. He's a super nice guy, though, I got to talk to him at\nthe Wolfe event for a while. I liked Stations of the Tide and Iron\nDragon's Daughter and some of his short fiction, but Jack Faust left me\nfeeling very cold.\n\nHow do you feel about mainstream literary figures? Flan O'Brien, Alasdair\nGray's Lanark, Yukio Mishima's Sea of Fertility or The Temple of the Golden\nPavillion, Proust, Faulkner, Nabokov?\n\nGoing the extreme opposite route with fantasists, how about R Scott Bakker\nor Steven Erikson or Glen Cook? Then the old standbys like Clark Ashton\nSmith and Vance or the short fiction of Zelazny and Harlan Ellison and\nTiptree Jr and Cordwainer Smith. (not necessarily like Lafferty, though)\n\n--- On Tue, 4/17/12, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: pinlighter \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FCA404E8BAE024CA6CED299DA8223DB1B2785426B@VA3DIAXVS291.RED001.local>", "from": { "name": "Steve Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Borges, Borges, and then Borges. Get his COLLECTED FICTIONS and skip around in it. Don't try to read it straight through." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334692368.78489.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-17T19:52:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689683.7505.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure you don't mean The Deep? Even that one was bad only for Crowley.\n\nI recommend Engine Summer too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334693472.73181.YahooMailNeo@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T20:11:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334692368.78489.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't like either Beasts or The Deep. In my opinion, Engine Summer is a masterpiece in both senses.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nTo: Jerry Friedman ; The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:52 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ...\n\n\n\n\nAre you sure you don't mean The Deep? Even that one was bad only for Crowley.\n\n\nI recommend Engine Summer too.\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334699938.66433.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T21:58:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334693472.73181.YahooMailNeo@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have we mentioned Chesterton yet? He's not only one of Wolfe's favorites, but they approach their themes in very similar ways, methinks.\n\nCrowley...with a million exclamation points.\n\nAnd I actually think that Steven Erikson is a fine writer. Someone said he was a guilty pleasure, but I tend to think more highly of his style. I've found that if you really pay some attention to his imagery and how the interconnected scenes are constructed, there's a real strong sense of craftsmanship where he tries to do a lot of nice things with mirroring, contrasts, etc. The actual sentences aren't particularly special, but I think it's pretty thoughtful stuff.\n\nTed Sturgeon's short stories. Kelly Link's short stories have a sense of the weird that I find similar to Wolfe's.\n\nJeff Vandermeer's _City of Saints and Madmen_ and M. John Harrison's _Viriconium_ stories are also comfortable relatives, I'd say." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-04-17T22:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334693472.73181.YahooMailNeo@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI didn't like either Beasts or The Deep." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I originally thought _The Deep_ a little turgid until the VanVogtian \nending, but enjoyed the whole lot on rereading. Ditto _Beasts_: \nReynard might be Dr Talos.\n\nIf one was riffing on Lafferty, Wolfe, Powers ..., one might consider \nAnthony Burgess, who wrote a surprising amount of SF; Edward \nWhittemore (_Sinai Tapestry_ et seq); and Charles Williams (who I prefer \nto CS Lewis).\n\nI personally am also partial to Rudy Rucker, whose thought processes seems \nas tangential as Lafferty, but SFnal; and Stanislaw Lem, thinking of the \nBorgesian plot lines in _the Cyberiad_, _The Star Diaries_, _The \nFuturological Congress_, but a lot funnier than Borges.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T23:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's see, what's left? I'm only just starting to check out Michael\nBishop, but he looks like he could be of interest to those into the cluster\nof authors we're talking about. Walker Percy - a sort of existential\nCatholic novelist - try his *Love in the Ruins* - fairly science fictional,\nthough a contemporary setting - great novel. Actually, did anyone mention\nFlannery O'Connor? She's a must. I'm honour bound to add Cormac McCarthy\n- I don't believe he's been mentioned. He, I think, has lots of regional\nsort of overlap with Lafferty (and somewhat with Wolfe in that regard with\nhis Texas background). Start with his *The Road* for a gripping tale\nthat's slightly science fictional. Then try* No Country for Old Men* for a\nbrisk-paced but philosophical thriller, then *Blood Meridian *for something\nshocking and apocalyptic now that you've been shown the ropes. He's one of\nthe few that stand up well in terms of prose-craft next to the likes of\nLafferty and Wolfe for me. (And don't worry about trying to 'understand'\nit all - just let it flow over you and get what you get on the first read,\nnot unlike Wolfe.) I don't think anyone's mentioned John C. Wright, whom I\nhaven't read yet, but is supposed to be a recent Catholic convert with a\nvery erudite and original approach to s.f. William Hope Hodgson is great\nbackground to some of Wolfe's horror elements - I'm loving getting familiar\nwith him. (Lovecraft goes here too, of course.) Also, Lord Dunsany who is\na huge precursor to some of what Wolfe's doing, especially his pseudo Sword\nand Sorcery sort of elements. I don't think we've mentioned Neil Gaiman, a\ndevoted fan of Wolfe, whose influence you can see on his work - I recommend\n*American Gods* and even more so *Anansi Boys*. Dan Simmons I think can be\nquite good - but more on the level of Tim Powers than Wolfe.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8DFE55.9020204@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T23:35:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd put in another vote for Whittemore. If you like The Anubis Gates by \nPowers, you will probably like Whittemore, or vice versa.\n\nOther than A Clockwork Orange, I can't say that Burgess has done much \nfor me; same for Lewis and Lem. I like Rucker but I don't think he \nreally is much like Lafferty except in his exuberant (stoned?) style.\n\nTo introduce another author, some Bruce Sterling really hits the same \nbuttons for me as Rucker, Powers, and Lafferty. Wolfe is in a class by \nhimself, or a category, if you will.\n\nDave Lebling" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 6:54 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't like either Beasts or The Deep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I originally thought _The Deep_ a little turgid until the VanVogtian \nending, but enjoyed the whole lot on rereading. Ditto _Beasts_: \nReynard might be Dr Talos.\n\nIf one was riffing on Lafferty, Wolfe, Powers ..., one might consider \nAnthony Burgess, who wrote a surprising amount of SF; Edward \nWhittemore (_Sinai Tapestry_ et seq); and Charles Williams (who I \nprefer to CS Lewis).\n\nI personally am also partial to Rudy Rucker, whose thought processes \nseems as tangential as Lafferty, but SFnal; and Stanislaw Lem, \nthinking of the Borgesian plot lines in _the Cyberiad_, _The Star \nDiaries_, _The Futurological Congress_, but a lot funnier than Borges.\n\nCheers, David Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-17T23:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Simmons I think can be quite good - but more on the level of Tim Powers than Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Hyperion_ and _The Fall of Hyperion_ are very good (there were two more in the series that were a lot weaker IMO) and I think they might appeal to Wolfe fans.\n\n_Carrion Comfort_ is also good.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8E0503.3000003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T00:04:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wright did a brilliant Hodgson pastiche ... I forget the name of the \ncollection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 7:27 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nLet's see, what's left? I'm only just starting to check out Michael \nBishop, but he looks like he could be of interest to those into the \ncluster of authors we're talking about. Walker Percy - a sort of \nexistential Catholic novelist - try his /Love in the Ruins/ - fairly \nscience fictional, though a contemporary setting - great novel. \n Actually, did anyone mention Flannery O'Connor? She's a must. I'm \nhonour bound to add Cormac McCarthy - I don't believe he's been \nmentioned. He, I think, has lots of regional sort of overlap with \nLafferty (and somewhat with Wolfe in that regard with his Texas \nbackground). Start with his /The Road/ for a gripping tale that's \nslightly science fictional. Then try/No Country for Old Men/ for a \nbrisk-paced but philosophical thriller, then /Blood Meridian /for \nsomething shocking and apocalyptic now that you've been shown the \nropes. He's one of the few that stand up well in terms of prose-craft \nnext to the likes of Lafferty and Wolfe for me. (And don't worry \nabout trying to 'understand' it all - just let it flow over you and \nget what you get on the first read, not unlike Wolfe.) I don't think \nanyone's mentioned John C. Wright, whom I haven't read yet, but is \nsupposed to be a recent Catholic convert with a very erudite and \noriginal approach to s.f. William Hope Hodgson is great background to \nsome of Wolfe's horror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with \nhim. (Lovecraft goes here too, of course.) Also, Lord Dunsany who is \na huge precursor to some of what Wolfe's doing, especially his pseudo \nSword and Sorcery sort of elements. I don't think we've mentioned \nNeil Gaiman, a devoted fan of Wolfe, whose influence you can see on \nhis work - I recommend /American Gods/ and even more so /Anansi Boys/. \n Dan Simmons I think can be quite good - but more on the level of Tim \nPowers than Wolfe.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Antonin Scriabin \n> wrote:\n\n Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I\n like? This email list has good taste, and I was wondering what\n other hidden authors you guys might enjoy, given preference for\n those mentioned. I initially discovered Lafferty through this\n list some time ago, for example. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T00:09:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8DFE55.9020204@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dave Lebling " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To introduce another author, some Bruce Sterling really hits the same \nbuttons for me as Rucker, Powers, and Lafferty. Wolfe is in a class by \nhimself, or a category, if you will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sterling can’t plot to save his life. But _Holy Fire_ is great.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T00:22:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if I thought I had reading material for life before, I definitely do\nnow! Thanks for all the recommendations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 17, 2012 1:50 PM, \"Jordon Flato\" wrote:\nJohn crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch\n\nOn Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\" \nwrote:\n\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8E135C.1040004@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T01:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find Sterling's short stories better than his novels, in general. I am \nparticularly fond of \"Bicycle Repairman\" and its sequel, \"Taklamantan.\" \nHis collaboration with Rucker, \"Big Jelly,\" is pretty good too. His \n\"Schismatrix\" stories (and the novel of the same name) are excellent. I \nactually thought \"Holy Fire\" was one of his weaker novels; perhaps I \nshould give it another try. \"The Difference Engine\" (with Gibson) has \ngrown on me with re-reading.\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle \nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe \n(and Lewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is \nheavily influenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe \nbecause of his pre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm \none of the latter, although the Catholicism works fine for me as a \nbackground.\n\nDave Lebling" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 8:09 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Dave Lebling " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To introduce another author, some Bruce Sterling really hits the same\nbuttons for me as Rucker, Powers, and Lafferty. Wolfe is in a class by\nhimself, or a category, if you will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sterling can't plot to save his life. But _Holy Fire_ is great.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8E29FE.7070204@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T02:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334689683.7505.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban, \nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30A2038BA7574937B791A0D9CE087C2C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T03:06:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E135C.1040004@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They have flaws in common: _The Difference Engine_ is episodic, whereas _Holy Fire_ is picaresque; neither is truly a novel in the strongest sense. They both create worlds, though. I prefer _Holy Fire_ because its world is in some sense a *plausible* future. That’s what I call Hard SF.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: Dave Lebling " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I actually thought \"Holy Fire\" was one of his weaker novels; perhaps I should \ngive it another try. \"The Difference Engine\" (with Gibson) has grown on me \nwith re-reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 8:09 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sterling can’t plot to save his life. But _Holy Fire_ is great. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334719652.72197.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T03:27:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E135C.1040004@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/17/12, Dave Lebling wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle is rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and Lewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily influenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his pre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter, although the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nDave Lebling\n\nI am sure the Catholicism contributes to the baroque spirituality that I so admire - though I find him almost entirely (but VERY cryptically and elusively) modernist in outlook. (I fervently believe in almost every case there IS? a bottom to get to - something I would abandon in an author? who I felt was being deliberately \"postmodern\").\n\nI love his prose and his creations and his mysteries, and I tell myself it is for that reason that I rank him at the pinnacle of all artists, in this or any time, and that everything that comes after will surely be a pale shadow, as everything that came before was just a fleeting glimpse of promise. Yet it might very well be that my basic spiritual but eccentric and pragmatic \"ends justify the means\"?conservatism is what really makes me put him far above the other authors I admire - that the arguments of his characters speak to me in particular. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rebecca Bushong-Taylor", "address": "rebeccabt01 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T04:07:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334719652.72197.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm usually far too intimidated by this august group to include anything,\nbut if you are a Lafferty fan you might also enjoy Howard Waldrop. Mostly\nshort stories, quirky and some quite funny. I believe he and Gene are\nfriends." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:27 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Dave Lebling * wrote:\n\n\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle\nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and\nLewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily\ninfluenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his\npre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter,\nalthough the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nDave Lebling\n\n\nI am sure the Catholicism contributes to the baroque spirituality that I\nso admire - though I find him almost entirely (but VERY cryptically and\nelusively) modernist in outlook. (I fervently believe in almost every case\nthere IS a bottom to get to - something I would abandon in an author who\nI felt was being deliberately \"postmodern\").\n\nI love his prose and his creations and his mysteries, and I tell myself it\nis for that reason that I rank him at the pinnacle of all artists, in this\nor any time, and that everything that comes after will surely be a pale\nshadow, as everything that came before was just a fleeting glimpse of\npromise. Yet it might very well be that my basic spiritual but eccentric\nand pragmatic \"ends justify the means\" conservatism is what really makes me\nput him far above the other authors I admire - that the arguments of his\ncharacters speak to me in particular.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<03a001cd1d23$cdc1e670$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T05:26:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E0503.3000003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nWright did a brilliant Hodgson pastiche ... I forget the name of the\ncollection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Awake in the Night.\"\n\nI published Mr Wright's story, in the first collection of Night Land fiction \nI edited, ETERNAL LOVE. It was brilliant, I agree (by far the best thing \nin the book) but you probably read it in one or other of the Best Of The \nYear anthologies it was picked up for.\n\nMr Wright has written several other Night land stories. I think the best of \nthem all is \"The Last Of All Suns,\" set aboard a nightmare-ridden starship \nin the last hours before the collapse and rebirth of the Universe (it is \nnontheless a Night Land story, set in that future).\n\nAll his Night Land fiction can be found online for free my website \nwww.thenightland.co.uk.\n\nYours egobooishly\n\nhartshorn AKA Andy Robertson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".. William Hope Hodgson is great background to\nsome of Wolfe's horror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with\nhim. (Lovecraft goes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course\n\n\nmessage." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T07:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E135C.1040004@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and\nLewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily\ninfluenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his\npre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter,\nalthough the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nSome of us are in a third category: we like him for* both* of those\nqualities. It's a cracking combo...\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Dave Lebling wrote:\n I find Sterling's short stories better than his novels, in general. I am\nparticularly fond of \"Bicycle Repairman\" and its sequel, \"Taklamantan.\" His\ncollaboration with Rucker, \"Big Jelly,\" is pretty good too. His\n\"Schismatrix\" stories (and the novel of the same name) are excellent. I\nactually thought \"Holy Fire\" was one of his weaker novels; perhaps I should\ngive it another try. \"The Difference Engine\" (with Gibson) has grown on me\nwith re-reading.\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle\nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and\nLewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily\ninfluenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his\npre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter,\nalthough the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nDave Lebling\n\n\nOn 4/17/2012 8:09 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n *From:* Dave Lebling " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To introduce another author, some Bruce Sterling really hits the same\nbuttons for me as Rucker, Powers, and Lafferty. Wolfe is in a class by\nhimself, or a category, if you will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sterling can’t plot to save his life. But _Holy Fire_ is great.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T07:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard that and I've been on my way to checking him out for some time.\n Still planning to do so. Thanks for the reminding recommendation.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:07 AM, Rebecca Bushong-Taylor <\nrebeccabt01 at gmail.com> wrote:\nI'm usually far too intimidated by this august group to include anything,\nbut if you are a Lafferty fan you might also enjoy Howard Waldrop. Mostly\nshort stories, quirky and some quite funny. I believe he and Gene are\nfriends.\n\nOn Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:27 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Tue, 4/17/12, Dave Lebling * wrote:\n\n\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle\nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and\nLewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily\ninfluenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his\npre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter,\nalthough the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nDave Lebling\n\n\nI am sure the Catholicism contributes to the baroque spirituality that I\nso admire - though I find him almost entirely (but VERY cryptically and\nelusively) modernist in outlook. (I fervently believe in almost every case\nthere IS a bottom to get to - something I would abandon in an author who\nI felt was being deliberately \"postmodern\").\n\nI love his prose and his creations and his mysteries, and I tell myself\nit is for that reason that I rank him at the pinnacle of all artists, in\nthis or any time, and that everything that comes after will surely be a\npale shadow, as everything that came before was just a fleeting glimpse of\npromise. Yet it might very well be that my basic spiritual but eccentric\nand pragmatic \"ends justify the means\" conservatism is what really makes me\nput him far above the other authors I admire - that the arguments of his\ncharacters speak to me in particular.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EACB0.90404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T11:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E29FE.7070204@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban, \nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EACE0.9080104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<03a001cd1d23$cdc1e670$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 1:26 AM, pinlighter wrote:\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\" \n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wright did a brilliant Hodgson pastiche ... I forget the name of the\ncollection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Awake in the Night.\"\n\nI published Mr Wright's story, in the first collection of Night Land \nfiction I edited, ETERNAL LOVE. It was brilliant, I agree (by far \nthe best thing in the book) but you probably read it in one or other \nof the Best Of The Year anthologies it was picked up for.\n\nMr Wright has written several other Night land stories. I think the \nbest of them all is \"The Last Of All Suns,\" set aboard a \nnightmare-ridden starship in the last hours before the collapse and \nrebirth of the Universe (it is nontheless a Night Land story, set in \nthat future).\n\nAll his Night Land fiction can be found online for free my website \nwww.thenightland.co.uk.\n\nYours egobooishly\n\nhartshorn AKA Andy Robertson" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! It must have been you who sent me there in the first place. \nCongratulations to you are in order. /Last of All Suns /is the one that \nreally sticks in my memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": ".. William Hope Hodgson is great background to\nsome of Wolfe's horror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with\nhim. (Lovecraft goes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The extreme futurity and the giant slow-moving evil Beings from outer \nspace do feel familiar. And the Redoubt is a bit like Byzantium toward \nthe end, hyper-romanticized of course, and thus Nessus as well. But \nthat's about all the connections I see." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EAE98.9080006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as \"hidden\" authors, I recommend /Kalpa Imperial/ by Ang?lica \nGorodischer, translated by Ursula K. Le Guin.\n\nAnd do I need to mention Delany's Neveryona series?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2012 8:22 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nWell, if I thought I had reading material for life before, I \ndefinitely do now! Thanks for all the recommendations.\n\nOn Apr 17, 2012 1:50 PM, \"Jordon Flato\" > wrote:\n\n John crowley for sure. The aegypt trilogy is top notch" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On Apr 17, 2012 10:47 AM, \"Antonin Scriabin\"\n > wrote:\n\n Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I\n like? This email list has good taste, and I was wondering what\n other hidden authors you guys might enjoy, given preference for\n those mentioned. I initially discovered Lafferty through this\n list some time ago, for example. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EAF66.2070703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EACE0.9080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (18-04-2012 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 1:26 AM, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\"\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": ".. William Hope Hodgson is great background to some of Wolfe's\nhorror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with him. (Lovecraft\ngoes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The extreme futurity and the giant slow-moving evil Beings from outer\nspace do feel familiar. And the Redoubt is a bit like Byzantium toward\nthe end, hyper-romanticized of course, and thus Nessus as well. But\nthat's about all the connections I see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean 'The House on the Borderland'? I don't find the themes or the\nsettings familiar, but there may be something about the 'tone', whatever \nthat is." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EAF80.1090208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EACB0.90404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was ready for either, but outside of a talking fish and bird, I came \nup empty. It has to be the least fantastic fantasy I've ever encountered.\n\nOther than that, it was okay." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8EB2ED.4090104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EAF66.2070703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 8:11 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (18-04-2012 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/18/2012 1:26 AM, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\"\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": ".. William Hope Hodgson is great background to some of Wolfe's\nhorror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with him. (Lovecraft\ngoes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The extreme futurity and the giant slow-moving evil Beings from outer\nspace do feel familiar. And the Redoubt is a bit like Byzantium toward\nthe end, hyper-romanticized of course, and thus Nessus as well. But\nthat's about all the connections I see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean 'The House on the Borderland'? I don't find the themes or the\nsettings familiar, but there may be something about the 'tone', \nwhatever that is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, /The Night Land/. But I'll have to read that one too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T12:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8E135C.1040004@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"At this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle\nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\"\n\nI absolutely love *The Baroque Cycle*. There was a good period of time\nwhere Wolfe, Pynchon, and Stevenson were my very favorite authors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\n I find Sterling's short stories better than his novels, in general. I am\nparticularly fond of \"Bicycle Repairman\" and its sequel, \"Taklamantan.\" His\ncollaboration with Rucker, \"Big Jelly,\" is pretty good too. His\n\"Schismatrix\" stories (and the novel of the same name) are excellent. I\nactually thought \"Holy Fire\" was one of his weaker novels; perhaps I should\ngive it another try. \"The Difference Engine\" (with Gibson) has grown on me\nwith re-reading.\n\nAt this point I'm reminded of Neal Stephenson as well. The Baroque Cycle\nis rather Wolfean and Powersian, in my opinion, infodumps aside.\n\nI believe there's a big difference between the people who like Wolfe (and\nLewis, Tolkien, and some others) largely because their work is heavily\ninfluenced by their Catholicism, and those who like Wolfe because of his\npre-post-modern-ish (to coin a phrase) sensibility. I'm one of the latter,\nalthough the Catholicism works fine for me as a background.\n\nDave Lebling\n\n\nOn 4/17/2012 8:09 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n *From:* Dave Lebling " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To introduce another author, some Bruce Sterling really hits the same\nbuttons for me as Rucker, Powers, and Lafferty. Wolfe is in a class by\nhimself, or a category, if you will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sterling can’t plot to save his life. But _Holy Fire_ is great.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T14:44:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EAF66.2070703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean 'The House on the Borderland'? I don't find the themes or the\nsettings familiar, but there may be something about the 'tone', whatever\nthat is.\n\nYes. Frankly, Wolfe's horror 'tone' strikes me as much closer to Hodgson\nthan Lovecraft, even though Wolfe perhaps deals more explicitly with\nLovecraftian themes. There is a strange animal terror connected to the\nmore cosmic and numinous horror and awe in Hodgy that I don't so much find\nin Lovey but do find echoed in Wolfe, his Solar monsters especially perhaps\n- notules, alzabo, devil fish on spongey island, leatherskin, etc. I have\nheard WHH referenced in at least one review of Wolfe.\n\n-DOJP\n\n2012/4/18 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (18-04-2012 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/18/2012 1:26 AM, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\"\n\n\n .. William Hope Hodgson is great background to some of Wolfe's\nhorror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with him. (Lovecraft\ngoes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The extreme futurity and the giant slow-moving evil Beings from outer\nspace do feel familiar. And the Redoubt is a bit like Byzantium toward\nthe end, hyper-romanticized of course, and thus Nessus as well. But\nthat's about all the connections I see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean 'The House on the Borderland'? I don't find the themes or the\nsettings familiar, but there may be something about the 'tone', whatever\nthat is.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334761492.7274.YahooMailNeo@web84506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T15:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EAF80.1090208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's often strange to see a favorite book through another reader's eyes. I find fantasy in every word and sentence of the book and can't imagine seeing it otherwise. \n\n\nPerhaps this is because I approach Wolfe and fantasy from a third perspective in addition to those mentioned: (1) ideology (Catholicism) and (2) sensibility (pre-postmodernism, as someone put it). A fourth approach might be science. But I consider style over all else; to me, style defines SF.\n\n\nWhat writers like Charles de Lint do is called \"urban fantasy\" by some. I find the \"fantasy\" in these stories to be highly separable from the \"urban\" part, which invariably holds no interest for me because its style is flat.\n\nWhat Crowley does shows how de Lint falls flat.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was ready for either, but outside of a talking fish and bird, I came \nup empty. It has to be the least fantastic fantasy I've ever encountered.\n\nOther than that, it was okay." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334766671.83690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T16:31:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334761492.7274.YahooMailNeo@web84506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with David on this one. As much as I love Wolfe and the Sun books, _Little, Big_ is one of the books that I stand in dumbfaced, slackjawed awe over. To me, it's one of the few works that convincingly recounts what actual \"fantasy\" would be like if it crept into mundane life. It's always been to me what \"real\" fantasy would be like...there's nothing \"speculative\" about it at all. (Plus, it's also one of the most realistic love stories I think I've ever read.)\n\n_Little, Big_ does what I think _Peace_ does: completely transcend genre while retaining everything wonderful that makes me a genre reader. There's no \"suspension of disbelief\"; just wonder.\n\nGranted, that's a very romantic notion and begs a lot of questions of taste. But it may explain why _Little, Big_ doesn't satisfy a lot of people to whom I recommended it when they were expecting something more fantastic.\n\n\n\n \n\nIt's often strange to see a favorite book through another reader's eyes. I find fantasy in every word and sentence of the book and can't imagine seeing it otherwise. \n\n\nPerhaps this is because I approach Wolfe and fantasy from a third perspective in addition to those mentioned: (1) ideology (Catholicism) and (2) sensibility (pre-postmodernism, as someone put it). A fourth approach might be science. But I consider style over all else; to me, style defines SF.\n\n\nWhat writers like Charles de Lint do is called \"urban fantasy\" by some. I find the \"fantasy\" in these stories to be highly separable from the \"urban\" part, which invariably holds no interest for me because its style is flat.\n\nWhat Crowley does shows how de Lint falls flat.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was ready for either, but outside of a talking fish and bird, I came \nup empty. It has to be the least fantastic fantasy I've ever encountered.\n\nOther than that, it was okay." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\n Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T16:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334766671.83690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand...\n\nThere's something about Crowley that works for some people and not\nothers. I'm one of the others. I read all of _Little, Big_ and\nultimately asked myself, \"So what?\" I could not penetrate beyond page\n50 or so of _AEgypt_.\n\nI'm not sure why, but Crowley just goes right over, under, or beside me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334767219.12522.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T16:40:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think it's the style? Crowley writes in that anti-Wolfe, \"art-literary\" not-much-happening-for-awhile style that circles around itself. When Wolfe looks like he's navel-gazing, there's really a lot going on. When Crowley's navel-gazing, he's going deep and putting everything else on pause. That gets to one of those questions of taste. But I think it's something that has frustrated people I know.\n\nCrowley's one of those observational, \"hey did you ever notice\" writers...whereas Wolfe doesn't re-notice the familiar -- he takes you places you've never been." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T16:44:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334767219.12522.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The style is certainly part of it; there were places in _Little, Big_\nwhere I felt that Crowley was ... well, not exactly talking down to\nthe reader, but I can't think of a better way to put it. Like Wolfe,\nhe conceals things, but unlike Wolfe, he seems to be almost smirking\nover what he knows that you don't.\n\nThe observational thing, on the other hand, is all good.\n\nBut the real problem for me is simply that I don't feel, after _n_\npages, that I've been given anything for my investment of time. There\nis, for me, no _there_ there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nDo you think it's the style? Crowley writes in that anti-Wolfe,\n\"art-literary\" not-much-happening-for-awhile style that circles around\nitself. When Wolfe looks like he's navel-gazing, there's really a lot going\non. When Crowley's navel-gazing, he's going deep and putting everything else\non pause. That gets to one of those questions of taste. But I think it's\nsomething that has frustrated people I know.\n\nCrowley's one of those observational, \"hey did you ever notice\"\nwriters...whereas Wolfe doesn't re-notice the familiar -- he takes you\nplaces you've never been.\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334768767.82301.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T17:06:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Totally fair. Tastes differ. Unfortunately, most of the people I give Wolfe don't finish it. But, then, those people are obviously fools." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334768876.85809.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T17:07:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334766671.83690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com>\nOn 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a brownie in the City, and what appears to be an animated statue, and the killing of a changeling (that eats hot coals), and a gateway to Faerie and a way to communicate to someone in Faerie, and a resurrected Barbarossa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was ready for either, but outside of a talking fish and bird, I came \nup empty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's lots of other fantasy in it too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has to be the least fantastic fantasy I've ever encountered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take it you haven't read /Freedom and Necessity/, by Steven Brust and Emma Bull. Or some Robertson Davies books, such as /The Rebel Angels/ and /The Cunning Man/, or /The Mask of Apollo/ by Mary Renault?(unless they don't count since they weren't marketed as fantasy)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other than that, it was okay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334769923.5155.YahooMailNeo@web84511.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T17:25:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334766671.83690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well put. Ordinary terms like \"suspension of disbelief\" don't seem up to describing what happens to me. I have even reread the book with the express purpose of finding where the wonder lies, and Jeff is right that there are very few parts---perhaps a dozen, including the talking stork, getting lost in the wood and finding Mrs Underhill's cottage (very Alice-y), Grandfather Trout, the oddness of Old Law Farm---that actually would require supernatural explanation, if explanation were demanded. \n\n\nBut they are so woven into the tale.... the whole thing works on you all at once. It can't be coincidental that Crowley says of Little, Big, that he threw into it every storytelling trick he learned from writing soaps (Wolfe has said similar things about BOTNS, except for the soap part).\n\n\n\n \n\nI'm with David on this one. As much as I love Wolfe and the Sun books, _Little, Big_ is one of the books that I stand in dumbfaced, slackjawed awe over. To me, it's one of the few works that convincingly recounts what actual \"fantasy\" would be like if it crept into mundane life. It's always been to me what \"real\" fantasy would be like...there's nothing \"speculative\" about it at all. (Plus, it's also one of the most realistic love stories I think I've ever read.)\n\n_Little, Big_ does what I think _Peace_ does: completely transcend genre while retaining everything wonderful that makes me a genre reader. There's no \"suspension of disbelief\"; just wonder.\n\nGranted, that's a very romantic notion and begs a lot of questions of taste. But it may explain why _Little, Big_ doesn't satisfy a lot of people to whom I recommended it when they were expecting something more fantastic.\n\n\n\n \n\nIt's often strange to see a favorite book through another reader's eyes. I find fantasy in every word and sentence of the book and can't imagine seeing it otherwise. \n\n\nPerhaps this is because I approach Wolfe and fantasy from a third perspective in addition to those mentioned: (1) ideology (Catholicism) and (2) sensibility (pre-postmodernism, as someone put it). A fourth approach might be science. But I consider style over all else; to me, style defines SF.\n\n\nWhat writers like Charles de Lint do is called \"urban fantasy\" by some. I find the \"fantasy\" in these stories to be highly separable from the \"urban\" part, which invariably holds no interest for me because its style is flat.\n\nWhat Crowley does shows how de Lint falls flat.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean classic Victorian-style fantasy vs urban fantasy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was ready for either, but outside of a talking fish and bird, I came \nup empty. It has to be the least fantastic fantasy I've ever encountered.\n\nOther than that, it was okay." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence\n Laboratory - Texas A&M\n Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334771289.54055.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-18T17:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334767219.12522.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, well put. The few times I encounter negative personal (i.e., nonprofessional) reviews of LB, the same causes are cited: repetition, inaction, lack of resolution. These are at least observable and therefore superficially real---but they are the kind of challenges that made me reread it again and again. What DID happen? How DID it end---or did it?To me, a thousand pages with only a few gorgeous glimpses of something exalted and unreal just behind the veil are well worth it.\n\n\nSome people may not get it that the story eventually turns back around to themselves. What are they left with when the Tale moves on, to wherever it goes, and they return to their own lives? Truth and meaning will not be delivered to the reader as on a plate---maybe can't even be achieved, merely sought and approached. Readers of Wolfe should not find this situation unfamiliar.\n\n\n\n \n\nDo you think it's the style? Crowley writes in that anti-Wolfe, \"art-literary\" not-much-happening-for-awhile style that circles around itself. When Wolfe looks like he's navel-gazing, there's really a lot going on. When Crowley's navel-gazing, he's going deep and putting everything else on pause. That gets to one of those questions of taste. But I think it's something that has frustrated people I know.\n\nCrowley's one of those observational, \"hey did you ever notice\" writers...whereas Wolfe doesn't re-notice the familiar -- he takes you places you've never been.\n\n\n\n \nOn the other hand...\n\nThere's something about Crowley that works for some people and not\nothers. I'm one of the others. I read all of _Little, Big_ and\nultimately asked myself, \"So what?\" I could not penetrate beyond page\n50 or so of _AEgypt_.\n\nI'm not sure why, but Crowley just goes right over, under, or beside me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334775827.63518.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T19:03:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334771289.54055.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, with for me the difference between Wolfe and Crowley is probably one of the underlying ethos and actual belief in the supernatural." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Crowley:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I myself don’t believe in fairies, or ancient magic, or secret histories — any more than I believe in the Pickwick Club, or Gormenghast, or Winesburg, Ohio.\"\n\nNothing in Crowley has led me to the astonishing moments when I realized, wait just a dang minute, these trees are eating people and spitting out copies, or wait just a minute, Peter Palmer was born in 1931 - never have I felt that there were infinite possibilities lurking under?Crowley's prose of any spiritual profoundity, though Engine Summer and Little Big come close. The conclusion of the Aegypt cycle really led me to that conclusion - underneath it all was banal decisions of everyday life, no transcendence, no permanence, metafiction without transformation, without a profound organizational principle that honestly and truly believed in itself, instantiated itself, without independent existence.\n\nCrowley never really talks about the things that really interest me outside of Engine Summer. Wolfe does, all the time. \n\nI guess I liken it to the difference between cleverness and the stereotypical academic's attitude I read in Crowley and the true spiritual longing I feel when I read Wolfe. Crowley is decent - he just doesn't speak to me that way, especially in Aegypt, which had some great parts but could have done without that ending.\n\n\n--- On Wed, 4/18/12, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T19:18:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334775827.63518.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc --\n\nThank you. You have put eloquently what I stumbled to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell, with for me the difference between Wolfe and Crowley is probably one\nof the underlying ethos and actual belief in the supernatural.\n\nFrom Crowley:\n\"I myself don’t believe in fairies, or ancient magic, or secret histories\n? any more than I believe in the Pickwick Club, or Gormenghast, or\nWinesburg, Ohio.\"\nNothing in Crowley has led me to the astonishing moments when I realized,\nwait just a dang minute, these trees are eating people and spitting out\ncopies, or wait just a minute, Peter Palmer was born in 1931 - never have I\nfelt that there were infinite possibilities lurking under Crowley's prose\nof any spiritual profoundity, though Engine Summer and Little Big come\nclose. The conclusion of the Aegypt cycle really led me to that conclusion\n- underneath it all was banal decisions of everyday life, no transcendence,\nno permanence, metafiction without transformation, without a profound\norganizational principle that honestly and truly believed in itself,\ninstantiated itself, without independent existence.\n\nCrowley never really talks about the things that really interest me\noutside of Engine Summer. Wolfe does, all the time.\n\nI guess I liken it to the difference between cleverness and the\nstereotypical academic's attitude I read in Crowley and the true spiritual\nlonging I feel when I read Wolfe. Crowley is decent - he just doesn't\nspeak to me that way, especially in Aegypt, which had some great parts but\ncould have done without that ending.\n\n\n--- On *Wed, 4/18/12, DAVID STOCKHOFF * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n\nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T20:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334775827.63518.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "metafiction without transformation\n...\nthe difference between cleverness and the stereotypical academic's attitude\nI read in Crowley and the true spiritual longing I feel when I read Wolfe\n\nI haven't read Crowley, but these perfectly describe the difference between\nsome speculative fictioneers and the likes of Wolfe for me.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell, with for me the difference between Wolfe and Crowley is probably one\nof the underlying ethos and actual belief in the supernatural.\n\nFrom Crowley:\n\"I myself don’t believe in fairies, or ancient magic, or secret histories\n? any more than I believe in the Pickwick Club, or Gormenghast, or\nWinesburg, Ohio.\"\nNothing in Crowley has led me to the astonishing moments when I realized,\nwait just a dang minute, these trees are eating people and spitting out\ncopies, or wait just a minute, Peter Palmer was born in 1931 - never have I\nfelt that there were infinite possibilities lurking under Crowley's prose\nof any spiritual profoundity, though Engine Summer and Little Big come\nclose. The conclusion of the Aegypt cycle really led me to that conclusion\n- underneath it all was banal decisions of everyday life, no transcendence,\nno permanence, metafiction without transformation, without a profound\norganizational principle that honestly and truly believed in itself,\ninstantiated itself, without independent existence.\n\nCrowley never really talks about the things that really interest me\noutside of Engine Summer. Wolfe does, all the time.\n\nI guess I liken it to the difference between cleverness and the\nstereotypical academic's attitude I read in Crowley and the true spiritual\nlonging I feel when I read Wolfe. Crowley is decent - he just doesn't\nspeak to me that way, especially in Aegypt, which had some great parts but\ncould have done without that ending.\n\n\n--- On *Wed, 4/18/12, DAVID STOCKHOFF * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334780708.88257.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T20:25:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334775827.63518.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's a difference in sensibility, but I don't care whether the author actually believes or not. I actually find Crowley to have a more sincerely \"supernatural\" style than Wolfe, even though I have a sense that Wolfe is more of a faithful individual than Crowley. I find Wolfe to be the more clever while Crowley is the more confused, contradictory, and open to something he hasn't thought of yet.\n\n\nArgh...but this isn't argument. We're really talking gut reactions here, and I can't fault anyone for having a different feeling.\n\n\n\n \n\nWell, with for me the difference between Wolfe and Crowley is probably one of the underlying ethos and actual belief in the supernatural.\n\nFrom Crowley:\n\"I myself don’t believe in fairies, or ancient magic, or secret histories — any more than I believe in the Pickwick Club, or Gormenghast, or Winesburg, Ohio.\"\n\nNothing in Crowley has led me to the astonishing moments when I realized, wait just a dang minute, these trees are eating people and spitting out copies, or wait just a minute, Peter Palmer was born in 1931 - never have I felt that there were infinite possibilities lurking under?Crowley's prose of any spiritual profoundity, though Engine Summer and Little Big come close. The conclusion of the Aegypt cycle really led me to that conclusion - underneath it all was banal decisions of everyday life, no transcendence, no permanence, metafiction without transformation, without a profound organizational principle that honestly and truly believed in itself, instantiated itself, without independent existence.\n\nCrowley never really talks about the things that really interest me outside of Engine Summer. Wolfe does, all the time. \n\nI guess I liken it to the difference between cleverness and the stereotypical academic's attitude I read in Crowley and the true spiritual longing I feel when I read Wolfe. Crowley is decent - he just doesn't speak to me that way, especially in Aegypt, which had some great parts but could have done without that ending." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 4/18/12, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) If I already like ...\nTo: \"Craig Brewer\" , \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, April 18, 2012, 10:48 AM\n\n\nAgain, well put. The few times I encounter negative personal (i.e., nonprofessional) reviews of LB, the same causes are cited: repetition, inaction, lack of resolution. These are at least observable and therefore superficially real---but they are the kind of challenges that made me reread it again and again. What DID happen? How DID it end---or did it? To me, a thousand pages with only a few gorgeous glimpses of something exalted and unreal just behind the veil are well worth it. \n\n\n\nSome people may not get it that the story eventually turns back around to themselves. What are they left with when the Tale moves on, to wherever it goes, and they return to their own lives? Truth and meaning will not be delivered to the reader as on a plate---maybe can't even be achieved, merely sought and approached. Readers of Wolfe should not find this situation unfamiliar. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<008801cd1da4$e74911a0$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T20:50:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hodgson's world view is profoundly Pagan and Stoic: Wolfe's is Catholic. It may be that this sharp divergence obscures my appreciation of an influence. \n\nI'd be intrested to know of any comments by Wolfe on WHH. \n\nMy website also hosts Wolfe's \"The Best Introduction to the Mountains\" and in passing while negotiating payment for it I did ask W if he would consider writing a Night land story for me: but he did not respond at all.\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Daniel Petersen \n Yes. Frankly, Wolfe's horror 'tone' strikes me as much closer to Hodgson than Lovecraft, even though Wolfe perhaps deals more explicitly with Lovecraftian themes. There is a strange animal terror connected to the more cosmic and numinous horror and awe in Hodgy that I don't so much find in Lovey but do find echoed in Wolfe, his Solar monsters especially perhaps - notules, alzabo, devil fish on spongey island, leatherskin, etc. I have heard WHH referenced in at least one review of Wolfe.\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T21:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<008801cd1da4$e74911a0$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's too bad Wolfe didn't respond to your invitation. I'd love to see\nhim do it. And I'm thankful you put up his excellent Tolkien piece since\nthe Tolkien anthology he wrote if for rejected (!) it.\n\nBut as to the Hodgson influence, I would have thought worldview would be no\nbarrier at all to you seeing it since you readily acknowledge Lovecraft's\ninfluence on Wolfe and those two cosmic views are diametrically opposed.\n Plus, Wolfe gives as much airtime to Pagan, Stoic, Cosmic Horror, etc.\nworldviews in his fiction as he does to his Catholicism, usually trying (I\nthink) to see what he takes to be elements of truth in all the former\nsubsumed and 'perfected' in the latter.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:50 PM, pinlighter wrote:\n**\nHodgson's world view is profoundly Pagan and Stoic: Wolfe's is Catholic.\nIt may be that this sharp divergence obscures my appreciation of an\ninfluence.\n\nI'd be intrested to know of any comments by Wolfe on WHH.\n\nMy website also hosts Wolfe's \"The Best Introduction to the Mountains\" and\nin passing while negotiating payment for it I did ask W if he would\nconsider writing a Night land story for me: but he did not respond at all.\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\n*From:* Daniel Petersen \nYes. Frankly, Wolfe's horror 'tone' strikes me as much closer to Hodgson\nthan Lovecraft, even though Wolfe perhaps deals more explicitly with\nLovecraftian themes. There is a strange animal terror connected to the\nmore cosmic and numinous horror and awe in Hodgy that I don't so much find\nin Lovey but do find echoed in Wolfe, his Solar monsters especially perhaps\n- notules, alzabo, devil fish on spongey island, leatherskin, etc. I have\nheard WHH referenced in at least one review of Wolfe.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8F339A.1040208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T21:35:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<1334768876.85809.YahooMailNeo@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/18/2012 12:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com>\nOn 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since /Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is urban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a brownie in the City, and what appears to be an animated statue, and the killing of a changeling (that eats hot coals), and a gateway to Faerie and a way to communicate to someone in Faerie, and a resurrected Barbarossa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of that seemed to make a difference to the plot, being more along \nthe lines of conceits or dreams on the parts of various fallible people. \nThe concept of people shrinking as they go farther toward some \nunreachable center of being so that there is room for ever more \nincredible places and beings is fascinating, but if it is more than a \nmetaphor, I lost it in the character drama along with all the above.\n\nI might give it another shot sometime, but I'd need some kind of really \njuicy spoiler to motivate me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8F345A.8080104@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T21:38:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<008801cd1da4$e74911a0$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 3:50 PM, pinlighter wrote:\nHodgson's world view is profoundly Pagan and Stoic: Wolfe's is Catholic.\nIt may be that this sharp divergence obscures my appreciation of an\ninfluence.\nI'd be intrested to know of any comments by Wolfe on WHH.\nMy website also hosts Wolfe's \"The Best Introduction to the Mountains\"\nand in passing while negotiating payment for it I did ask W if he would\nconsider writing a Night land story for me: but he did not respond at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You might need to take that up with his agent." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8F3AAB.8050906@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-04-18T22:05:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 11:35 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn the other hand...\n\nThere's something about Crowley that works for some people and not\nothers. I'm one of the others. I read all of _Little, Big_ and\nultimately asked myself, \"So what?\" I could not penetrate beyond page\n50 or so of _AEgypt_.\n\nI'm not sure why, but Crowley just goes right over, under, or beside me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "QFT: \"goes right over\" is part of what transcend means; another would be \n\"leaves behind\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F8F6A7D.4020503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-19T01:29:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8F339A.1040208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 5:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/18/2012 12:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com>\nOn 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 4/17/2012 2:08 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I strongly second the recommendation for Crowley, and I'd start with\n/Little, Big, /although he's never written anything bad since \n/Beasts/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is \nurban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a brownie in the City, and what appears to be an animated \nstatue, and the killing of a changeling (that eats hot coals), and a \ngateway to Faerie and a way to communicate to someone in Faerie, and \na resurrected Barbarossa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of that seemed to make a difference to the plot, being more along \nthe lines of conceits or dreams on the parts of various fallible \npeople. The concept of people shrinking as they go farther toward some \nunreachable center of being so that there is room for ever more \nincredible places and beings is fascinating, but if it is more than a \nmetaphor, I lost it in the character drama along with all the above.\n\nI might give it another shot sometime, but I'd need some kind of \nreally juicy spoiler to motivate me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But juicy spoilers is exactly what you won't get out of Crowley. Not \nsince /Engine Summer/ at least, where plenty of stuff happened that you \ncould say was \"cool.\" I wish he still did that in his longer works. \nFortunately there are his shorter ones, but these I find to be \nirreducible. To summarize them is to do them harm." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T13:27:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another author I have been alerted to is E. R. Eddison, who seems more in\nthe realm of high fantasy than science fiction or urban fantasy, and is\ncited as an inspiration for the likes of Lewis and Tolkien. I picked up *The\nWorm Ouroboros *but haven't read it. Have any of you read his books? Any\nthoughts about his writings in relation to some of the others we have\ntalked about?* *" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nWolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T14:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I picked up Worm Ouroboros over a decade ago for the same reason and still\nhaven't read it! But another I picked up because it was an influence on\nLewis was David Lindsay's* A Voyage to Arcturus*, which I did read and\nfound it pretty amazing - really, really weird planetary exploration. I\nknow Wolfe has at least read Arcturus because he uses it as a foil to\nLafferty's obscure novel *East of Laughter* in his afterword he wrote for\nit called 'Scribbling Giant'.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nAnother author I have been alerted to is E. R. Eddison, who seems more in\nthe realm of high fantasy than science fiction or urban fantasy, and is\ncited as an inspiration for the likes of Lewis and Tolkien. I picked up *The\nWorm Ouroboros *but haven't read it. Have any of you read his books?\nAny thoughts about his writings in relation to some of the others we have\ntalked about?* *\n\nOn Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe, Lafferty, Powers, MacDonald, and Tolkien, what else will I like?\nThis email list has good taste, and I was wondering what other hidden\nauthors you guys might enjoy, given preference for those mentioned. I\ninitially discovered Lafferty through this list some time ago, for\nexample. I know there has to be more!\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334846860.83847.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T14:47:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Eddison [was Re: If I already like ...]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another author I have been alerted to is E. R. Eddison, who seems more in the realm of high fantasy than science fiction or urban fantasy, and is cited as an inspiration for the likes of Lewis and Tolkien. I picked up The Worm Ouroboros but haven't read it. Have any of you read his books? Any thoughts about his writings in relation to some of the others we have talked about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find Eddison's Tudor style really remarkable, though I'm no expert. He resembles Wolfe in Political Incorrectness, though he's a lot more in your face about it--in fact, I can recommend him if you like what's been called \"assertional vigor\". Not to spoil anything, but there are some points where his beliefs and feelings are a little disturbing to me.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T15:08:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Eddison [was Re: If I already like ...]", "in_reply_to": "<1334846860.83847.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read *The Worm Ourobouros* a couple years back, and it may appeal to you\nif you are a fan of Wolfe's baroque and archaic elements. The plot and\ncharacters are skewed far toward the mythical, and there's approximately a\n0.005% element of realism. I seem to remember a lot of \"thees\" and\n\"thous,\" but I might be confusing this with William Morris. I don't\nremember anything about the political elements Jerry is mentioning, but\nthat doesn't necessarily mean much, as I forget a lot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334849771.84961.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T15:36:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Eddison [was Re: If I already like ...]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read it. Liked it in parts - masculine vigor is deified to some degree, and eternal conflict is idealized valhalla style. Not as deep as Wolfe, nor as soul searching, but if you like your men manly and god-like you might appreciate it. (Conflict in the book actually seems better than actually defeating evil - that without that opposition there can be no nobility).\n\n--- On Thu, 4/19/12, Matthew Knight wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Matthew Knight \nSubject: Re: (urth) Eddison [was Re: If I already like ...]\nTo: \"Jerry Friedman\" , \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, April 19, 2012, 8:08 AM\n\n\nI read The Worm Ourobouros?a couple years back, and it may appeal to you if you are a fan of Wolfe's baroque and archaic elements. ?The plot and characters are skewed far toward the mythical, and there's approximately a 0.005% element of realism. ?I seem to remember a lot of \"thees\" and \"thous,\" but I might be confusing this with William Morris. ?I don't remember anything about the political elements Jerry is mentioning, but that doesn't necessarily mean much, as I forget a lot. \n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T16:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nAnother author I have been alerted to is E. R. Eddison, who seems more in\nthe realm of high fantasy than science fiction or urban fantasy, and is\ncited as an inspiration for the likes of Lewis and Tolkien. I picked up The\nWorm Ouroboros but haven't read it. Have any of you read his books? Any\nthoughts about his writings in relation to some of the others we have talked\nabout?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eddison's an interesting case -- a Goddess-worshipping romantical type\nwho seems to think that medieval times were better than modern because\nthey were full of honor and stuff. The _Worm_ is an excellent book,\nthough a bit dry. I had to force myself through his \"Zimiamvian\"\ntrilogy, but I'm glad I did." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1334856136.69763.YahooMailNeo@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-04-19T17:22:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8F339A.1040208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com\nOn 4/18/2012 12:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com>\nOn 4/18/2012 6:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 4/17/2012 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_Little, Big_ was a disappointment for me. Part of the novel is \nurban,\nbut the specks of actual fantasy come before and after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a brownie in the City, and what appears to be an animated \nstatue, and the killing of a changeling (that eats hot coals), and a gateway to \nFaerie and a way to communicate to someone in Faerie, and a resurrected \nBarbarossa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of that seemed to make a difference to the plot," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't know that was your criterion. The gateway to Faerie certainly made a difference to the Auberon-Sylvie part of the plot.\n— The brownie is mostly there as decoration and to tell you something about Sylvie. The changeling story resolves a minor part of the plot. The statue tells you something about Hawksquill. But I may be spoiling too much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "being more along the lines \nof conceits or dreams on the parts of various fallible people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why did you read it that way? I read all those things as \"real\" in the story, and I can't imagine reading it differently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The concept of \npeople shrinking as they go farther toward some unreachable center of being so \nthat there is room for ever more incredible places and beings is fascinating, \nbut if it is more than a metaphor, I lost it in the character drama along with \nall the above.\n\nI might give it another shot sometime, but I'd need some kind of really \njuicy spoiler to motivate me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I'm not trying to motivate you to do anything, and I doubt there are any spoilers to give you.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F98A864.8020107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-26T01:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F8EAF66.2070703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio\n\nI've just finished House on the Borderlands. I can't help but be \nreminded of Master Ash in his ice-doomed time-tower.\n\nOtherwise, I see no resemblances to anything Wolfe has done except \nperhaps for the gothic (and hoary) touch of the \"recovered manuscript.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2012 8:11 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (18-04-2012 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/18/2012 1:26 AM, pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\"\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": ".. William Hope Hodgson is great background to some of Wolfe's\nhorror elements - I'm loving getting familiar with him. (Lovecraft\ngoes here too, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Uh, not really. Where is Hodgson's influence on Wolfe???\n\nLovecraft, yes, of course" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The extreme futurity and the giant slow-moving evil Beings from outer\nspace do feel familiar. And the Redoubt is a bit like Byzantium toward\nthe end, hyper-romanticized of course, and thus Nessus as well. But\nthat's about all the connections I see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean 'The House on the Borderland'? I don't find the themes or the\nsettings familiar, but there may be something about the 'tone', \nwhatever that is.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-04-26T03:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "<4F98A864.8020107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAntonio\n\nI've just finished House on the Borderlands. I can't help but be reminded of \nMaster Ash in his ice-doomed time-tower.\n\nOtherwise, I see no resemblances to anything Wolfe has done except perhaps \nfor the gothic (and hoary) touch of the \"recovered manuscript.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, when I first read it I was blown away, but rereading it after \nrereading _The Time Machine_ (specifically the later chapter) showed me \nwhere many of the most striking ideas came from.\n\nRe Wolfe and Hodgson, have you compared _Pirate Freedom_ to _The Ghost \nPirates_? ;) [_Boats of the Glen Carrig_ is good fun too]\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10966\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F99317F.4070601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-04-26T11:29:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If I already like ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/25/2012 11:37 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Wed, 25 Apr 2012, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio\n\nI've just finished House on the Borderlands. I can't help but be \nreminded of Master Ash in his ice-doomed time-tower.\n\nOtherwise, I see no resemblances to anything Wolfe has done except \nperhaps for the gothic (and hoary) touch of the \"recovered manuscript.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, when I first read it I was blown away, but rereading it after \nrereading _The Time Machine_ (specifically the later chapter) showed \nme where many of the most striking ideas came from.\n\nRe Wolfe and Hodgson, have you compared _Pirate Freedom_ to _The Ghost \nPirates_? ;) [_Boats of the Glen Carrig_ is good fun too]\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10966\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I guess I have no choice now but to read those too!" } ] } ] }