# Simulation of a 'star crosser' (hollowed asteroid) like in Long Sun! *The Urth list — 8 messages, 3 voices, 16 May 2012* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Daniel Petersen *16 May 2012, 19:33* http://www.orbitbooks.net/2312/ Fascinating! -DOJP --- ### Daniel Petersen *16 May 2012, 19:37 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* well, actually, I'm not sure this kind is meant for interstellar travel, but, anyway, it shows how a small 'world' could be made inside a hollowed asteroid with an axis 'sun' source... -DOJP --- ### David Stockhoff *17 May 2012, 00:37 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* Slap one of these babies on it and you're good to go: http://www.projectrho.com/portfolio/port22.html Incidentally, this "terrarium" concept does suggest something about Urth: that its spacefaring technology must already have been fairly advanced along these lines for Typhon to hollow out the Long Sun ship using just such a process as Robinson describes. His people knew what they were doing. One might guess that his existing ships were unable to move large populations because they were too small; perhaps then they performed FTL travel by pure acceleration, being limited in size and therefore mass. > On 5/16/2012 3:37 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > well, actually, I'm not sure this kind is meant for interstellar > travel, but, anyway, it shows how a small 'world' could be made inside > a hollowed asteroid with an axis 'sun' source... > > -DOJP > > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 May 2012, 08:25 · in reply to David Stockhoff* His people knew what they were doing. Yeah, that's the assumption back of the entire Solar Cycle, which is highly effective in giving a powerful sense of decay, and, even more so to me, the possibility that Wolfe's narrators are only following the exploits and dramas of basically 'left behind' 'backwater' communities (however vast and seemingly complex and important to themselves, with an Autarch and what have you). It actually has a strong plausibility to it. It seems only too likely that a (inter)galactic space-faring multi-terrestrial empire (or mega-galactic interaction of cultures of some kind) of the magnitude suggested in the works would have 'pockets' of leftover cultural decay in the 'boondocks' of that massive crisscrossing of interstellar economy. And these pockets would have their overlords that would seem immensely powerful to the inhabitants, but are really lackeys and peons in the larger scheme, petty tyrannical landlords in the grip of an ultimately laughable megalomania - .e.g Typhon. (This would fit in very well with and hugely deepen Wolfe's whole focus on the 'outcasts' in the Solar Cycle.) Has anybody else felt like Urth and co. are just a forgotten 'tribal village' tucked away in a vastly advanced cosmic mega-culture? -DOJP > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Slap one of these babies on it and you're good to go: > > http://www.projectrho.com/**portfolio/port22.html > > Incidentally, this "terrarium" concept does suggest something about Urth: > that its spacefaring technology must already have been fairly advanced > along these lines for Typhon to hollow out the Long Sun ship using just > such a process as Robinson describes. His people knew what they were doing. > > One might guess that his existing ships were unable to move large > populations because they were too small; perhaps then they performed FTL > travel by pure acceleration, being limited in size and therefore mass. > > On 5/16/2012 3:37 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote: >> well, actually, I'm not sure this kind is meant for interstellar travel, >> but, anyway, it shows how a small 'world' could be made inside a hollowed >> asteroid with an axis 'sun' source... >> >> -DOJP >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *17 May 2012, 08:45 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* > On 5/17/2012 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > His people knew what they were doing. > > > Yeah, that's the assumption back of the entire Solar Cycle, which is > highly effective in giving a powerful sense of decay, and, even more so > to me, the possibility that Wolfe's narrators are only following the > exploits and dramas of basically 'left behind' 'backwater' communities > (however vast and seemingly complex and important to themselves, with an > Autarch and what have you). It actually has a strong plausibility to it. > > It seems only too likely that a (inter)galactic space-faring > multi-terrestrial empire (or mega-galactic interaction of cultures of > some kind) of the magnitude suggested in the works would have 'pockets' > of leftover cultural decay in the 'boondocks' of that massive > crisscrossing of interstellar economy. And these pockets would have > their overlords that would seem immensely powerful to the inhabitants, > but are really lackeys and peons in the larger scheme, petty tyrannical > landlords in the grip of an ultimately laughable megalomania - .e.g > Typhon. (This would fit in very well with and hugely deepen Wolfe's > whole focus on the 'outcasts' in the Solar Cycle.) > > Has anybody else felt like Urth and co. are just a forgotten 'tribal > village' tucked away in a vastly advanced cosmic mega-culture? I get that sense, but that Urth has staggered on in obstinate mediocrity long after the mega-culture has flamed out. Typhon sets up shop between the trunkless legs of Ozymandias. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Daniel Petersen *17 May 2012, 08:59 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* *I get that sense, but that Urth has staggered on in obstinate mediocrity long after the mega-culture has flamed out. * Ah, I hadn't thought of that - that's even more bleak! I guess the only question would be then how are the heirodules, etc. part of this 'flamed out' mega-culture? It would seem the whole thing is staggering on past its 'glory days' then. *Typhon sets up shop between the trunkless legs of Ozymandias. * Yes. Maybe it's part of the definition and make-up tyrant that you take no warning from the ruins of tyrants before you. -DOJP > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 5/17/2012 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: >> His people knew what they were doing. >> >> >> Yeah, that's the assumption back of the entire Solar Cycle, which is >> highly effective in giving a powerful sense of decay, and, even more so >> to me, the possibility that Wolfe's narrators are only following the >> exploits and dramas of basically 'left behind' 'backwater' communities >> (however vast and seemingly complex and important to themselves, with an >> Autarch and what have you). It actually has a strong plausibility to it. >> >> It seems only too likely that a (inter)galactic space-faring >> multi-terrestrial empire (or mega-galactic interaction of cultures of >> some kind) of the magnitude suggested in the works would have 'pockets' >> of leftover cultural decay in the 'boondocks' of that massive >> crisscrossing of interstellar economy. And these pockets would have >> their overlords that would seem immensely powerful to the inhabitants, >> but are really lackeys and peons in the larger scheme, petty tyrannical >> landlords in the grip of an ultimately laughable megalomania - .e.g >> Typhon. (This would fit in very well with and hugely deepen Wolfe's >> whole focus on the 'outcasts' in the Solar Cycle.) >> >> Has anybody else felt like Urth and co. are just a forgotten 'tribal >> village' tucked away in a vastly advanced cosmic mega-culture? > I get that sense, but that Urth has staggered on in obstinate mediocrity > long after the mega-culture has flamed out. Typhon sets up shop between the > trunkless legs of Ozymandias. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com > Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana > < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > > ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *17 May 2012, 10:07 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* > On 5/17/2012 3:59 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > /I get that sense, but that Urth has staggered on in obstinate > mediocrity long after the mega-culture has flamed out. / > > Ah, I hadn't thought of that - that's even more bleak! I guess the only > question would be then how are the heirodules, etc. part of this 'flamed > out' mega-culture? It would seem the whole thing is staggering on past > its 'glory days' then. I suppose the hierodules and other Yesodis sort of represent the memory of a fabled golden age that never was. They "know" humanity can do better and strive to better it a bit like an obsessive stage mother. I'm leaning toward skepticality of the literal truth of their origin, though I'm not sure what the "real" origin would be. It makes sense for man's descendant to share his mythbuilding habits but if the origin as man's descendant is mythical, then I'm not sure why they would necessarily have the mythologizing impulse. I'm also puzzled how humanity could have ascended to that exalted state of affairs the once and then never again approach it despite spiritual growth. Was the ascension and begatting of the pre-Yesodis achieved by the power of unalloyed depravity, to be equaled by the power of unalloyed virtue? Or was the original achievement one of the grace preserved by innocence, now lost but with mankind able to return to a state of grace in some future manvantara? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *17 May 2012, 11:45 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On 5/17/2012 6:07 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > I'm also puzzled how humanity could have ascended to that exalted > state of affairs the once and then never again approach it despite > spiritual growth. Was the ascension and begatting of the pre-Yesodis > achieved by the power of unalloyed depravity, to be equaled by the > power of unalloyed virtue? Or was the original achievement one of the > grace preserved by innocence, now lost but with mankind able to return > to a state of grace in some future manvantara? Based on various characters' comments, I'd go with depravity, but I'm not sure how the karmic math works out. If it does. ---