Lake of Birds

Anyway, while searching for "avern" on google, I stumbled upon lake Avernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to "Avernus" meaning "birdless" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that flew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a sort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead people lie), it is also the abode of the "mythological" Cumean Sibyl. he "Lake of Birds" is thus obviously lake Avernus. This raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical Gardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm more inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake of Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? Or is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the Lake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I thought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man with the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that links the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the reason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an early clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and not only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient Rome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future? Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would "make sense".

On 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <mailto:meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> Anyway, while searching for "avern" on google, I stumbled upon lake Avernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to "Avernus" meaning "birdless" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that flew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a sort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead people lie), it is also the abode of the "mythological" Cumean Sibyl.

he "Lake of Birds" is thus obviously lake Avernus. This raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical Gardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm more inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake of Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? Or is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the Lake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I thought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man with the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that links the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the reason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an early clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and not only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient Rome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future? Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would "make sense".

I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the Romans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the Lake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be content to think of it as just inspiration with no direct identification with the events of the story. There are no Roman citizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns. And as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

On 5/20/2012 10:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: On 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <mailto:meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> Anyway, while searching for "avern" on google, I stumbled upon lake Avernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to "Avernus" meaning "birdless" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that flew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a sort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead people lie), it is also the abode of the "mythological" Cumean Sibyl.

he "Lake of Birds" is thus obviously lake Avernus. This raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical Gardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm more inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake of Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? Or is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the Lake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I thought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man with the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that links the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the reason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an early clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and not only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient Rome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future? Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would "make sense".

I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the Romans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the Lake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be content to think of it as just inspiration with no direct identification with the events of the story. There are no Roman citizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns. And as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology. The key is, as always, Christ. Getting a little further into the Wiki, you find: [Cumaean Sibyl] In the Middle Ages, both the Cumaean Sibyl and Virgil were considered prophets of the birth of Christ, because the fourth of Virgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the Sibyl. In it, she foretells the coming of a savior, whom Christians identified as Jesus.[4][5][6] and this was seized on by early Christians as such one reason why Dante Alighieri later chose Virgil as his guide through the underworld in The Divine Comedy. Many here already know about this. I also note, for those of you who are interested in the possible role of the Cumaean and Father Inire as "tutelary gods": [Cumae] Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy (Magna Graecia), and the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. It was the Cumaean alphabet that was adopted in Italy, first by the Etruscans (800 - 100 BC) and then by the Romans (300 - 100 BC), thus becoming the Latin alphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script. The Cumaean alphabet was also used throughout the Greek island of Euboea. And here's the clincher: [Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus Lacus) and from there to the sea. The lake shore was also connected to the Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's Cave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough to be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it remained usable until as recently as the 1940s. Damned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can almost see the Wolfean mind at work.

The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.

And here's the clincher: [Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus Lacus) and from there to the sea.

The lake shore was also connected to the Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's Cave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough to be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it remained usable until as recently as the 1940s. Damned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can almost see the Wolfean mind at work.

On 5/20/2012 2:42 PM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote: "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology." As little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I think it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue about the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great lengths to make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens with Lake Avernus.

"I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least beautiful of the Four Sibyls." Right, but according to Wiki [Cumean Sibyl] "Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand years. This came about when Apollo <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo> offered to grant her a wish in exchange for her virginity; she took a handful of sand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held. Later, after she refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away because she failed to ask for eternal youth <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_youth>. Her body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (/ampulla/). Eventually only her voice was left (/Metamorphoses/ 14; compare the myth of Tithonus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus>).^[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl#cite_note-2>" ^ ^ This calls to mind the Mandragora Severian finds in his suite in the Citadel, around the final pages of TCotA. Also, when Severian meets the witches in the Stone Town, the Cumean makes it clear she is quite old, though not as old as the mind she reaches for.

^ "And then there is her serpentine appearance." I can think of one reference to Greek mythology that could shed some light on that appearance. It is said that the Sibyls are sisters, and, according to Wikipedia: [Delphic Sibyl] "The Delphic Sibyl was a legendary figure who made prophecies in the sacred precinct of Apollo <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo> at Delphi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi>, on the slopes of Mount Parnassus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Parnassus>. According to a late source, her mother was Lamia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamia_%28mythology%29>, daughter of Poseidon.^[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Sibyl#cite_note-0> ^[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Sibyl#cite_note-1> " So their mother is supposed to be Lamia who, in her turn, is identified with snakes and prophecy.

On 5/20/2012 11:38 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: On 5/20/2012 10:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

On 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <mailto:meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> Anyway, while searching for "avern" on google, I stumbled upon lake Avernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to "Avernus" meaning "birdless" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that flew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a sort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead people lie), it is also the abode of the "mythological" Cumean Sibyl.

he "Lake of Birds" is thus obviously lake Avernus. This raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical Gardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm more inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake of Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? Or is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the Lake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I thought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man with the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that links the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the reason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an early clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and not only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient Rome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future? Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would "make sense".

I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the Romans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the Lake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be content to think of it as just inspiration with no direct identification with the events of the story. There are no Roman citizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns. And as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology. The key is, as always, Christ. Getting a little further into the Wiki, you find: [Cumaean Sibyl] In the Middle Ages, both the Cumaean Sibyl and Virgil were considered prophets of the birth of Christ, because the fourth of Virgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the Sibyl. In it, she foretells the coming of a savior, whom Christians identified as Jesus.[4][5][6] and this was seized on by early Christians as such one reason why Dante Alighieri later chose Virgil as his guide through the underworld in The Divine Comedy. Many here already know about this. I also note, for those of you who are interested in the possible role of the Cumaean and Father Inire as "tutelary gods": [Cumae] Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy (Magna Graecia), and the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. It was the Cumaean alphabet that was adopted in Italy, first by the Etruscans (800 - 100 BC) and then by the Romans (300 - 100 BC), thus becoming the Latin alphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script. The Cumaean alphabet was also used throughout the Greek island of Euboea. And here's the clincher: [Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus Lacus) and from there to the sea. The lake shore was also connected to the Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's Cave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough to be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it remained usable until as recently as the 1940s. Damned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can almost see the Wolfean mind at work.

I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least beautiful of the Four Sibyls. And then there is her serpentine appearance. I don't know what to make of this, unless any presentiment of Christ must naturally appear in Briah as a serpent, just as Satan so appeared in Eden---whether as a matter of levels of the multiverse or some other scheme. _______________________________________________

That is certainly true, but it could also be that Severian and the others cannot see the Romans for the same reason that the missionaries in the Jungle Garden couldn't really see Severian and Agia. Or maybe Severian could see Roman citizens, just didn't tell us about them.

"The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology."

As little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I think it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue about the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great lengths to make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens with Lake Avernus.

On 5/20/2012 3:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: From: David Stockhoff <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net> **

The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.

I don’t think it would be out of character for him to mention a technological feature like this.

And here's the clincher: [Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus Lacus) and from there to the sea.

Well, I suppose he might well have included such a link as a nod to the original Lake Avernus.

The lake shore was also connected to the Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's Cave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough to be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it remained usable until as recently as the 1940s. Damned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can almost see the Wolfean mind at work.

I don’t really see the implications of the above, other than the link with the Cumaean which was elsewhere mentioned. I agree that the original Cumaean prophesy may indeed have a counterpart in the cacogenic Cumaean’s relationship to Severian. - Gerry Quinn

On 5/20/2012 3:18 PM, Dave Lebling wrote: I have always felt that the Cumaean is in fact the same as the Roman one, as literally as it is possible to be in an ostensibly different universe. It has been argued multiple times that she is an alien (cacogen/heirodule/...). In our history the Cumaean Sibyls were famous for holding the books of prophecies which she ("not a native of the country") offered to King Tarquin of Rome, with instructive results, then "disappeared." How SFnal can you get without an actual spaceship?

Given what goes on in the Botanic Gardens, the idea that the Cumaean and her cave might be a survival from a history not unlike our own seems an easy step. As for the idea that the medieval belief that the Cumaean prophesied Christ, and that that is "the link," where does she do so in TBotNS? It is not all about Christ; TBotNS is not a Christian apologetic.

On 5/20/2012 3:22 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it simply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't explain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology." As little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I think it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue about the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great lengths to make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens with Lake Avernus.

I think it’s possible to read too much into such identifications; Wolfe references entities such as the Lake and builds in connections to other entities that have classical resonances with it such as the Cumaean. But at the same time, it is not the same lake (there was no Gyoll equivalent near the original Lake Avernas), and the Cumaean is not the classical Cumaean (or she could have raised Apu Punchau without assistance from her acquaintance in Fomalhaut).

Google wasn't around when BNS was written

Someone else wrote:

"I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least beautiful of the Four Sibyls."

Right, but according to Wiki [Cumean Sibyl] "Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand years. This came about when Apollo offered to grant her a wish in exchange for her virginity; she took a handful of sand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held. Later, after she refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away because she failed to ask for eternal youth. Her body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (ampulla). Eventually only her voice was left (Metamorphoses 14; compare the myth of Tithonus).[3]"

Caramba, enrico, n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao Father Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de prolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais minucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano cego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e era filho de uma ninfa. Ser?

On 5/20/2012 7:53 PM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote: Personally, I tend to agree with Dave Lebling, in that the Cumaean is the Sibyl of Cumae. Gerry's claim that, if the old witch was alive in ancient Rome, she wouldn't really need her "friend" in Formalhaut, is very compelling. It is not required, though, that the Cumaean be continuously alive since antiquity, in order for her to be the Sibyl. If the Botanic Gardens function as a gateway in space-time, the witch could simply pass from antiquity to the very far future without needing to be alive all this time. Therefore she might have "missed" the Apu-Punchau period, and not be able to raise him. It is also possible that, since Severian was probably the "real" inspiration behind the Incan god Inti, he might have become Apu-Punchau in a mythological age much earlier than the beginning of the Incan empire, and therefore maybe even before ancient Rome. As of Severian's relation with the Cumaean, I'm inclined to believe that it goes deeper than the obvious. First, because she is clearly one of the witches from the Witches' Tower, and therefore belonged to what seems to be the guild closest to the torturers in the citadel, if that indeed is a guild at all, which I doubt. Second, because although Severian is obviously a Christ figure, he is also a Sun God, what with his being a sun, taking power from a sun, and all that. He may be particularly identifiable as Apollo, for his good looks, sexual appetite, healing powers, and love of tales. I also seem to remember something about the torturers apprentices having sex with the witches, though I don't recall where it was written. But not Severian. He did have a strange encounter with the witches, while still an apprentice, but it was not sexual. All that resonates beautifully with the legend about the Cumean Sibyl, in which Apollo gives her longevity in exchange for sex, but withholds youth when the prophetess refuses to sleep with him, eventually making it necessary for her to live in a jar, on account of her withered body. Didn't the Mandragora say that it was the Autarch who created it?

David Stockhoff: But I think BNS is all about existence before-Christ, as Lee has commented.

"For I myself once saw with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in her jar, and when the boys asked her, >'Sibyl, what do you want?' she answered 'I want to die.'

Caramba, enrico,

n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao Father Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de prolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais minucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano cego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e era filho de uma ninfa. Ser?

On 5/22/2012 7:37 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: No dia 21/05/2012, ?s 01:03, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado<meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> escreveu:

Caramba, enrico, Na verdade ? 'Ant?nio', mas j? n?o havia...

n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao Father Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de prolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais minucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano cego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e era filho de uma ninfa. Ser?

Now that you mention him, it would be odd if Wolfe didn't have a Tiresias somewhere. But I'm not sure he qualifies, theres a lot going on in his life that apparently has no FI counterpart... though iirc one of Tiresias's epithets was 'father'...

Two things. First, let's remember that Google wasn't around when BNS was written, and while I'm sure Wolfe didn't deliberately write for seminarians and graduate students, he did intend his connections to be visible. If one guesses a connection on the basis of a few links, one should at least be rewarded with finding a couple more new ones.

Second, IMHO for the most part he prefers his allusions to be concrete---not merely wordplay. That detail of the pipe, while small, is concrete. And as Bruno points out, connecting a lake to the sea has practical plot implications in BNS.

From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:59 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds ? From: David Stockhoff ?>

written, and while I'm sure Wolfe didn't deliberately write for seminarians and graduate students, he did intend his connections to be visible.

should

Yes,

---My point was that important connections should be multiple. Here is a multiple connection. Conclusions drawn.

Second, IMHO for the most part he prefers his allusions to be concrete---not merely wordplay. That detail of the pipe, while small, is concrete.

practical

If it were a canal like the original, it might have more. ---And would it help if they sold gelato from little carts there in the summer?

________________________________ From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:33 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds "Yes, but that award should not be a significant plot point. More resemblances to the original Lake Avernus are fine, but one should stop short of drawing conclusions about the characters." While in the subject of more resemblances to the original lake, I'd like to point out that Hildegrin explains that the Lake of Birds is "made to look like the mouth of a volcaner", and Lake Avernus is indeed the crater of a volcano. In my opinion, there are too many similarities not to make a direct identification. As I see it, the Garden of Endless Sleep is either a reconstruction, by some Autarch, of the region around Avernus, or the place itself. That is, if you presume that Urth is actually Earth, or something very similar to it, millions of years in the future. _______________________________________________

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:14 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds "Which Tiresias? Genderbender, blind seer, mediator between gods and men, accursed of the gods, or prophet of Apollo?" You forgot one: "Royal councilor". As in the guy who councils the kings of Thebes, Odisseus, and so forth. But still I tend to agree with Ant?nio, in that there's much which doesn't fit in this theory. For instance, I feel that in order to make an association with Tiresias, blindness would be an important feature. But to my knowledge, there's nothing indicating that FI could be blind. Also, it appears that the deformed old guide wearing a mask, when Severian is in the power of Vodalus, is FI. That guide and his helper are reported to have "dark skin" though, which probably means they're autochthons. That's probably the most applicable one, although it derives from his prophetic powers. In literature especially (Oedipus), Tiresias was indeed a royal adviser, which makes him a mediator between gods and kings. I like "prophet of Apollo" too, for reasons below. The thing about mythical allusion is that there is always more material than you can possibly use. You can't expect it all to fit just because a few salient points correspond. Moreover, not only do Tiresias' blindness and gender experiences come from curses, so they are not an essential part of his being, but it wouldn't necessarily matter if they were. These are allusions, not legal documents. We don't need to give

More awkwardly---if I understand the various contradictory stories correctly---he may have owed all his powers to blessings given to make up for those curses. Which would mean that Tiresias became a seer after he was blinded. As it happens, he was priest of Apollo first, so that's not entirely true. He simply became a better seer. So I don't have a problem with this allusion at all! I heartily support it. I wonder however if it does not point us in another direction: if Inire is indeed blind, then Wolfe covers it with a cowl, because we never see it or Severian never remarks on it. Therefore any potential Inire must wear a cowl. This would tend to severely limit the "Elvis is everywhere" theory of Father Inire---perhaps too severely.

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds "In fact I think this is one of those points where I can hear Wolfe chuckling at his postmodern joke, because it was of course Wolfe himself who "made the Lake of Birds to look like" Avernus." Certainly, specially since Wolfe makes sure to indicate that the author is also part of the story. As I see it, he even includes himself as a character: the "G.W." that translates a text in "a language that has not yet achieved existence". It's easy to forget, but the BotNS is supposed to be a "translation", and furthermore one in which the translator is striving not to invent words. Therefore names and terms that seem to evoke mythology for us, such as "Dorcas" and "Cumaean" and "Typhon", may not be the mythological beings themselves at all, nor even those characters' "real" names. They might actually be conscious choices by the "translator", who in his unwillingness to invent new words, ends up making parallels between the characters of the supposed "original text", and creatures from Earthly lore. ---Yes, that's his excuse at least. It's good to be reminded of this from time to time.

. It's easy to forget, but the BotNS is supposed to be a "translation", and furthermore one in which the translator is striving not to invent words. Therefore names and terms that seem to evoke mythology for us, such as "Dorcas" and "Cumaean" and "Typhon", may not be the mythological beings themselves at all, nor even those characters' "real" names. They might actually be conscious choices by the "translator", who in his unwillingness to invent new words, ends up making parallels between the characters of the supposed "original text", and creatures from Earthly lore. But that should be the subject of a whole other thread

(...) is an intriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?

"You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult before." Oops, I didn't realize that. Only asked because I actually wanted to understand the connection.

From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>

No dia 23/05/2012, ?s 01:43, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> escreveu:

"You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult before." Oops, I didn't realize that. Only asked because I actually wanted to understand the connection.

Homem prevenido vale por dois.

Of course, even the people with the most egregious ideas here sometimes come up with useful insights. More than me, for instance; I never come up with anything.

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com>

"In English, "Forewarned is four-armed"." Thanks, I had never heard this expression in English.

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 8:58 PM From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com>

"In English, "Forewarned is four-armed"." Thanks, I had never heard this expression in English.

On 5/23/2012 12:26 AM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote: "I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the Portuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of limbs on Blue and Green.)" I thought it meant "armed fourfold" or something. But great sequence of analogies!

I knew when I saw the term "egregious ideas" bandied about my name would soon follow one way or another heh heh --- On Tue, 5/22/12, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 8:58 PM

From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com>

"In English, "Forewarned is four-armed"." Thanks, I had never heard this expression in English.

The real expression is "Forewarned is forearmed." "Forearmed" means "armed in advance" and is hardly ever used outside this proverb. I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the Portuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of limbs on Blue and Green.) Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: The Old Leech as the Cumaean in disguise is an intriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?

________________________________ From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: urth at urth.net Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:15 AM Subject: (urth) Lake of Birds

Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: The Old Leech as the Cumaean in disguise is an intriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?

None that would be universally persuasive of course. But in 25 years of reading BotNS, I always had the sense there was a hidden subtext to the story. My views on the Cumaean are related to a gradually evolved theory I have regarding this subtext. Wolfe reveals that the Old Leech is from Nessus (like the Cumaean in Witches Tower), is willing to use young boys for unsavory purposes (like the witches), is very familiar with the eating of the dead w/alzabo (as are witches; evidence can be provided for this). All this detail is not necessary to serve the Leech's place in the plot so why is it included? I think these are hints that we know this Leech from somewhere else in the story. The Old Leech says he is there in an isolated jungle ziggurat because he seeks knowledge which can't be found in Nessus or via eating the dead. Not even if all the great scholars of the past were available. This raises two demanding questions for me: 1. what is the nature of this knowledge?; 2. how does the Leech expect to find it in the ziggurat? ---Not to say these are not good questions, but for me another question is raised---how much of this is mere hugger-mugger? I think there's a consensus on this board that Wolfe hangs his bigger works on preexisting, usually mythical literary structures. So much of this goes on that half of what we discuss and argue here is correspondences to those structures. A constant source of misunderstanding is how rigid or "literal" these correspondences need to be to be real. How much freedom does Wolfe have to flesh out his rooms once he has laid the foundations and built the walls? Another way to put this is that there must be someone on Urth who doesn't have a bone to pick with Severian. Which way to go in this case? For me, the more the Leech can be made to identify with a figure already alluded to, the better---but not necessarily a character already in the book. My conclusion is that the Leech is only in the ziggurat because Severian is there and he is the source of the secret knowlege being sought. I think Severian has been herded from one adventure to another in this story, from Dorcas to avern to notule to Stone Town etc. to test and wrest the secret of true resurrection that only he possesses.(the idea that restoring life is the ultimate forbidden/sacred knowledge is a common trope in fantasy, myth and religion) I'll mention that I think it likely that The Cumaean and Father Inire are probably the same person, or perhaps more precisely, different aspects of the same larger super- human character. Notice that as the character of the Old Leech disappears, the character of the Jungle Guide appears (whom most agree is Father Inire). ---Eternal life is indeed a common trope. Who then in classical myth does this point to? But where in myth are a witch and a leech the same person? Note however that if you accept Inire as Tiresias and Tiresias as the male aspect of the Sibyl, the problem in your next comment about gender difference goes away. I should explain that I don't find the apparent gender difference to be important. Nor is the perception of good or evil in certain characters very important. I consider Urth to be a gnostic world and thus? ruled by a gnostic deity. In fact, such a deity is specifically mentioned in the text: The Abraxas. This Lord of All Opposites (male-female; good-evil etc.) was reviled as a demon by early Judeo-Christians but worshipped by others as a higher god than the incomplete male Jehovah. (I notice that as the Jungle Guide character disappears the androgynous Green Man appears. In pagan mythology there is a thread of connection between The Green Man, Pan (Pas), Dionysus and The Abraxas) So when I suggest Ceryx is the same as (or an aspect of) The Cumaean I also mean Father Inire. There is the shared fascination with necromancy and raising of the dead which connects to The Cumaean. But there is Ceryx's staff capped by a human head which mirrors the Jungle Guide's staff capped by a monkey head. ---Did the Cumaean raise Apu-Punchau, or did Severian?

________________________________ From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <meuemaildobruno at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:15 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds " Usually you get only three warnings before being turned into a pig. " If you're on Odisseus' rowing team, not even that many. One, at most. _______________________________________________

I don't think anyone ever "raised" Apu-Punchau as Severian resurrected other characters. My impression was rather

that the Cumaean had taken the group back in time, to the Apu-Punchau period.

Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: "Severian, as a reformed torturer, is a pagan

trying to become more Christian." That is an appealing notion..

"Did the Cumaean raise Apu-Punchau, or did Severian?"

I don't think anyone ever "raised" Apu-Punchau as Severian resurrected other characters. My impression was rather that the Cumaean had taken the group back in time, to the Apu-Punchau period.

entonio: Wasn't there something about it being AP himself that moved them in

time?

"Ha! You're clearly unfamiliar with the view that there are no 'rather's - every (un)thinkable hypothesis has as much or more weight than the clearly laid out sequence of events in the text." I am beginning to sense some irony and cynicism in your comments... No, probably just imagining it.

Entonio: Wolfe's books are a bit special in that it is generally agreed that all the alternative readings can coexist, rather than only one of them being valid depending on perspective. BUT some take this too far, almost to a caricature, and some caricatures are Lesser than their originals.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Has anyone had a chance to read any of the musings (as opposed to the fictions) of GK Chesterton? They're all free for Kindle, and I recommend them. Wolfe holds him in high regard, and it's easy to see why. He had some fascinating opinions on myths and religion and other things, and an amazing way of making a point indirectly but powerfully. You read him and say, "I see what you did there. Points to you." One of his essays is about how the moon is obviously not made of green cheese, but certainly is made of cheese. He theorizes that by the end of time, it will have aged to greenness, if not beyond. He doesn't say, but he almost seems to be suggesting that the popular myth amounts to foreknowledge. Perhaps this is why Severian does not elaborate on the history of green Lune. _______________________________________________

On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else. Maybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 12:50 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:

I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else. Maybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee.

Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion? I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the press. _______________________________________________

From: "entonio at gmail.com" <entonio at gmail.com>

I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton,

unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else. Maybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee.

On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:

I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else. Maybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee.

Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion?

I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the press.

Well, one has to allow for his ideas about things like women's suffrage...

On 6/4/2012 7:43 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: No dia 01/06/2012, ?s 20:50, David Stockhoff<dstockhoff at verizon.net> escreveu:

On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:

I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else. Maybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee.

Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion?

Orthodoxy reads like a scathing attack on most non-catholic philosophy. I've met few priests as sage as Father Brown and none so outspoken. The man who was thursday seems to unrelentingly mock socialists. Jerry can see the wit in it even if finding it silly, but Jerry is far away from being the gen.pub.

I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the press.

That's one of the bits that will appeal to a 'paleoconservative'. _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff wrote: But he also took shots at the landlords. I'm not sure where that fits in or parallels modern politics ...

On 6/4/2012 11:05 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: David Stockhoff wrote:

But he also took shots at the landlords. I'm not sure where that fits in or parallels modern politics ...

GKC was a "distributist," a philosophy that has no real parallel in modern politics. There's a decent Wikipedia article on it.