{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6252", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6252, "subject": "Lake of Birds", "messages": 65, "voices": 9, "first": "2012-05-20T05:34:34+00:00", "last": "2012-06-05T12:49:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T05:34:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This list's threads have been a great help in my unrelenting effort to\nunderstand the BotNS and UotNS, which I have just finished reading for the\nfirst time. I live in Brazil, so don't have ready access to much of the\nsupporting content that would otherwise help me, such as Lexicon Urthus\netc., and therefore this list has been particularly useful. Thanks!\n\nUnfortunately, the archives are so extensive that I lack the will to sift\nthrough them all. Consequently, I don't really know if the remark I'm about\nto make is original or not, though I suspect it isn't, for it's quite\nobvious. Anyway, while searching for \"avern\" on google, I stumbled upon\nlake Avernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to \"Avernus\"\nmeaning \"birdless\" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds\nthat flew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a\nsort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead people\nlie), it is also the abode of the \"mythological\" Cumean Sibyl. The \"Lake of\nBirds\" is thus obviously lake Avernus.\n\nThis raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical Gardens -\nillusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm more inclined to\nbelieve, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake of Birds is Avernus\nitself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? Or is it possible to\nexperience many different periods of time in the Lake of Birds, as it\nappeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I thought most interesting,\nthough, was the part in which the old man with the boat (Severian's\ngrandfather?), says that there is a pipe that links the Lake of Birds to\nGyoll, and that apparently that was the reason why this lake does not dry\nup. Is that Wolfe giving us an early clue that, in his world, the future\ncan determine the past, and not only the other way around? Would lake\nAvernus dry up in ancient Rome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would\nclog up in the future? Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would\n\"make sense\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T14:05:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, while searching for \"avern\" on google, I stumbled upon lake \nAvernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to \"Avernus\" meaning \n\"birdless\" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that \nflew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a \nsort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead \npeople lie), it is also the abode of the \"mythological\" Cumean Sibyl. \nhe \"Lake of Birds\" is thus obviously lake Avernus.\n\nThis raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical \nGardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm \nmore inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake \nof Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome? \nOr is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the \nLake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I \nthought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man \nwith the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that \nlinks the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the \nreason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an \nearly clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and \nnot only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient \nRome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future?\n Given the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would \"make sense\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the Romans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the Lake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be content to think of it as just inspiration with no direct identification with the events of the story. There are no Roman citizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns.\n\nAnd as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB90582.4050606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T14:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nAnyway, while searching for \"avern\" on google, I stumbled upon lake\nAvernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to \"Avernus\" \nmeaning\n\"birdless\" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that\nflew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a\nsort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead\npeople lie), it is also the abode of the \"mythological\" Cumean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "he \"Lake of Birds\" is thus obviously lake Avernus.\n\nThis raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical\nGardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm\nmore inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake\nof Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome?\nOr is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the\nLake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I\nthought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man\nwith the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe that\nlinks the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the\nreason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an\nearly clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and\nnot only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient\nRome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the future?\nGiven the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would \"make sense\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the \nRomans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the \nLake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be \ncontent to think of it as just inspiration with no direct \nidentification with the events of the story. There are no Roman \ncitizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns.\nAnd as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\n\nThe key is, as always, Christ. Getting a little further into the Wiki, \nyou find:\n\n[Cumaean Sibyl] In the Middle Ages, both the Cumaean Sibyl and Virgil \nwere considered prophets of the birth of Christ, because the fourth of \nVirgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the Sibyl. \nIn it, she foretells the coming of a savior, whom Christians identified \nas Jesus.[4][5][6] and this was seized on by early Christians as \nsuch one reason why Dante Alighieri later chose Virgil as his guide \nthrough the underworld in The Divine Comedy.\n\nMany here already know about this. I also note, for those of you who are \ninterested in the possible role of the Cumaean and Father Inire as \n\"tutelary gods\":\n\n[Cumae] Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy (Magna \nGraecia), and the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. It was the Cumaean alphabet \nthat was adopted in Italy, first by the Etruscans (800 - 100 BC) and \nthen by the Romans (300 - 100 BC), thus becoming the Latin alphabet, the \nworld's most widely used phonemic script. The Cumaean alphabet was also \nused throughout the Greek island of Euboea.\n\nAnd here's the clincher:\n\n[Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus \nLacus) and from there to the sea. The lake shore was also connected to \nthe Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's \nCave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough \nto be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it \nremained usable until as recently as the 1940s.\n\nDamned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can \nalmost see the Wolfean mind at work." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB91007.80709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T15:38:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB90582.4050606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 10:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nAnyway, while searching for \"avern\" on google, I stumbled upon lake\nAvernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to \"Avernus\" \nmeaning\n\"birdless\" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that\nflew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a\nsort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead\npeople lie), it is also the abode of the \"mythological\" Cumean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "he \"Lake of Birds\" is thus obviously lake Avernus.\n\nThis raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical\nGardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm\nmore inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake\nof Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome?\nOr is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the\nLake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I\nthought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man\nwith the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe \nthat\nlinks the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the\nreason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an\nearly clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and\nnot only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient\nRome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the \nfuture?\nGiven the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would \"make sense\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the \nRomans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and the \nLake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be \ncontent to think of it as just inspiration with no direct \nidentification with the events of the story. There are no Roman \ncitizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick averns.\nAnd as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\n\nThe key is, as always, Christ. Getting a little further into the Wiki, \nyou find:\n\n[Cumaean Sibyl] In the Middle Ages, both the Cumaean Sibyl and Virgil \nwere considered prophets of the birth of Christ, because the fourth of \nVirgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the \nSibyl. In it, she foretells the coming of a savior, whom Christians \nidentified as Jesus.[4][5][6] and this was seized on by early \nChristians as such one reason why Dante Alighieri later chose Virgil \nas his guide through the underworld in The Divine Comedy.\n\nMany here already know about this. I also note, for those of you who \nare interested in the possible role of the Cumaean and Father Inire as \n\"tutelary gods\":\n\n[Cumae] Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy \n(Magna Graecia), and the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. It was the Cumaean \nalphabet that was adopted in Italy, first by the Etruscans (800 - 100 \nBC) and then by the Romans (300 - 100 BC), thus becoming the Latin \nalphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script. The Cumaean \nalphabet was also used throughout the Greek island of Euboea.\n\nAnd here's the clincher:\n\n[Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus \nLacus) and from there to the sea. The lake shore was also connected to \nthe Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's \nCave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough \nto be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; \nit remained usable until as recently as the 1940s.\n\nDamned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can \nalmost see the Wolfean mind at work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is \nportrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least \nbeautiful of the Four Sibyls. And then there is her serpentine \nappearance. I don't know what to make of this, unless any presentiment \nof Christ must naturally appear in Briah as a serpent, just as Satan so \nappeared in Eden---whether as a matter of levels of the multiverse or \nsome other scheme." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T18:42:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB91007.80709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"There are no Roman citizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did\nnot pick averns.\"\n\nThat is certainly true, but it could also be that Severian and the others\ncannot see the Romans for the same reason that the missionaries in the\nJungle Garden couldn't really see Severian and Agia. Or maybe Severian\ncould see Roman citizens, just didn't tell us about them. If there were\nactually more than one old boatman poling the lake, it could be that there\nwere more than two, and that some of them were actually Romans. As for\nancient Romans not picking averns, even though our primary sources about\nancient Rome are plentiful, we can never be sure. Anyway, those are all\nonly speculations.\n\n\"The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it\nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't\nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\"\n\nAs little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the\npipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I\nthink it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue about\nthe workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great lengths\nto make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens with Lake\nAvernus.\n\n\"I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is\nportrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least\nbeautiful of the Four Sibyls.\"\n\nRight, but according to Wiki\n\n[Cumean Sibyl] \"Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand\nyears. This came about when Apollo\n offered\nto grant her a wish in exchange for her virginity; she took a handful of\nsand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held.\nLater, after she refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away\nbecause she failed to ask for eternal\nyouth.\nHer body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (*ampulla*).\nEventually only her voice was left (*Metamorphoses* 14; compare the myth of\nTithonus ).[3]\n\"\n\n\nThis calls to mind the Mandragora Severian finds in his suite in the\nCitadel, around the final pages of TCotA. Also, when Severian meets the\nwitches in the Stone Town, the Cumean makes it clear she is quite old,\nthough not as old as the mind she reaches for.\n\n\n\"And then there is her serpentine appearance.\"\n\nI can think of one reference to Greek mythology that could shed some light\non that appearance. It is said that the Sibyls are sisters, and, according\nto Wikipedia:\n\n[Delphic Sibyl] \"The *Delphic Sibyl* was a legendary figure who made\nprophecies in the sacred precinct of Apollo\n at Delphi , on the slopes of Mount\nParnassus . According to a\nlate source, her mother was\nLamia,\ndaughter of Poseidon.[1]\n[2] \"\n\nSo their mother is supposed to be Lamia who, in her turn, is identified\nwith snakes and prophecy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:11:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB90582.4050606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think it would be out of character for him to mention a technological feature like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And here's the clincher:\n[Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus \nLacus) and from there to the sea. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I suppose he might well have included such a link as a nod to the original Lake Avernus. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The lake shore was also connected to \nthe Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's \nCave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough \nto be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road tunnel; it \nremained usable until as recently as the 1940s.\n\nDamned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can \nalmost see the Wolfean mind at work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t really see the implications of the above, other than the link with the Cumaean which was elsewhere mentioned. I agree that the original Cumaean prophesy may indeed have a counterpart in the cacogenic Cumaean’s relationship to Severian.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB942E4.4000306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:15:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 2:42 PM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote:\n\"The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\"\n\nAs little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe \nthe pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, \nalthough I think it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an \nearly clue about the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he \nwent to great lengths to make his readers identify this part of the \nBotanic Gardens with Lake Avernus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Connecting Avernus to the ocean certainly has both practical and \nsymbolic meaning. Not just Juturna but other monsters also dwell in the \nsea. I suppose the pipe would need to be large, possibly big enough for \nJuturna---why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl \nis portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and \nleast beautiful of the Four Sibyls.\"\n\nRight, but according to Wiki\n\n[Cumean Sibyl] \"Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a \nthousand years. This came about when Apollo \n offered to grant her a wish in \nexchange for her virginity; she took a handful of sand and asked to \nlive for as many years as the grains of sand she held. Later, after \nshe refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away because \nshe failed to ask for eternal youth \n. Her body grew smaller \nwith age and eventually was kept in a jar (/ampulla/). Eventually only \nher voice was left (/Metamorphoses/ 14; compare the myth of Tithonus \n).^[3] \n\"\n^\n^\nThis calls to mind the Mandragora Severian finds in his suite in the \nCitadel, around the final pages of TCotA. Also, when Severian meets \nthe witches in the Stone Town, the Cumean makes it clear she is quite \nold, though not as old as the mind she reaches for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---the jar does bring up the Mandragora. That's interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "^\n\n\n\"And then there is her serpentine appearance.\"\n\nI can think of one reference to Greek mythology that could shed some \nlight on that appearance. It is said that the Sibyls are sisters, and, \naccording to Wikipedia:\n\n[Delphic Sibyl] \"The *Delphic Sibyl* was a legendary figure who made \nprophecies in the sacred precinct of Apollo \n at Delphi \n, on the slopes of Mount \nParnassus . According to \na late source, her mother was Lamia \n, daughter of \nPoseidon.^[1] \n^[2] \"\n\nSo their mother is supposed to be Lamia who, in her turn, is \nidentified with snakes and prophecy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the Greeks always linked the two. That's probably enough of a \nconnection. But I wonder how far back the image of Satan as a snake \nreally goes---since much of what we have is in Greek there's the \npossibility that it began with the Greek. I'm sure someone will correct \nme if I'm off base.\n\nIncidentally, I'm reminded of another Wolfean lake with tunnels \nunderneath big enough for chariots." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB94396.7050704@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:18:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB91007.80709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always felt that the Cumaean is in fact the same as the Roman \none, as literally as it is possible to be in an ostensibly different \nuniverse. It has been argued multiple times that she is an alien \n(cacogen/heirodule/...). In our history the Cumaean Sibyls were famous \nfor holding the books of prophecies which she (\"not a native of the \ncountry\") offered to King Tarquin of Rome, with instructive results, \nthen \"disappeared.\" How SFnal can you get without an actual spaceship?\n\nGiven what goes on in the Botanic Gardens, the idea that the Cumaean and \nher cave might be a survival from a history not unlike our own seems an \neasy step.\n\nAs for the idea that the medieval belief that the Cumaean prophesied \nChrist, and that that is \"the link,\" where does she do so in TBotNS? It \nis not all about Christ; TBotNS is not a Christian apologetic.\n\nDave Lebling\n(aka vizcacha)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 11:38 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 5/20/2012 10:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/20/2012 10:05 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nAnyway, while searching for \"avern\" on google, I stumbled upon lake\nAvernus, which is a real lake in Italy. In addition to \"Avernus\" \nmeaning\n\"birdless\" (apparently due to ancient Romans' belief that birds that\nflew over this lake would die), and to this lake being considered a\nsort of gate to Hades (and therefore a place in which many dead\npeople lie), it is also the abode of the \"mythological\" Cumean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "he \"Lake of Birds\" is thus obviously lake Avernus.\n\nThis raises some questions. What are the gardens in the Botanical\nGardens - illusions, reconstructions of past landscapes, or, as I'm\nmore inclined to believe, those landscapes themselves? If the Lake\nof Birds is Avernus itself, in which time period is it? Ancient Rome?\nOr is it possible to experience many different periods of time in the\nLake of Birds, as it appeared to be in the Jungle Garden? What I\nthought most interesting, though, was the part in which the old man\nwith the boat (Severian's grandfather?), says that there is a pipe \nthat\nlinks the Lake of Birds to Gyoll, and that apparently that was the\nreason why this lake does not dry up. Is that Wolfe giving us an\nearly clue that, in his world, the future can determine the past, and\nnot only the other way around? Would lake Avernus dry up in ancient\nRome, if the pipe that connects it to Gyoll would clog up in the \nfuture?\nGiven the general theme of Wolfe's work, that would \"make sense\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think you are certainly correct that Wolfe was inspired by the \nRomans? belief — perhaps the myth inspired not only the avern and \nthe Lake, but even in some part the Cumaean. But I think I would be \ncontent to think of it as just inspiration with no direct \nidentification with the events of the story. There are no Roman \ncitizens wandering around after all, and the Romans did not pick \naverns.\nAnd as Freud observed, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\n\nThe key is, as always, Christ. Getting a little further into the \nWiki, you find:\n\n[Cumaean Sibyl] In the Middle Ages, both the Cumaean Sibyl and Virgil \nwere considered prophets of the birth of Christ, because the fourth \nof Virgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the \nSibyl. In it, she foretells the coming of a savior, whom Christians \nidentified as Jesus.[4][5][6] and this was seized on by early \nChristians as such one reason why Dante Alighieri later chose Virgil \nas his guide through the underworld in The Divine Comedy.\n\nMany here already know about this. I also note, for those of you who \nare interested in the possible role of the Cumaean and Father Inire \nas \"tutelary gods\":\n\n[Cumae] Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy \n(Magna Graecia), and the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. It was the \nCumaean alphabet that was adopted in Italy, first by the Etruscans \n(800 - 100 BC) and then by the Romans (300 - 100 BC), thus becoming \nthe Latin alphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script. The \nCumaean alphabet was also used throughout the Greek island of Euboea.\n\nAnd here's the clincher:\n\n[Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus \nLacus) and from there to the sea. The lake shore was also connected \nto the Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as \nCocceio's Cave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and \nwide enough to be used by chariots. This was the world's first major \nroad tunnel; it remained usable until as recently as the 1940s.\n\nDamned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can \nalmost see the Wolfean mind at work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl \nis portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and \nleast beautiful of the Four Sibyls. And then there is her serpentine \nappearance. I don't know what to make of this, unless any presentiment \nof Christ must naturally appear in Briah as a serpent, just as Satan \nso appeared in Eden---whether as a matter of levels of the multiverse \nor some other scheme.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D042E0A8B974564B316446A05B692B6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:22:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is certainly true, but it could also be that Severian and the others \ncannot see the Romans for the same reason that the missionaries in the \nJungle Garden couldn't really see Severian and Agia. Or maybe Severian\ncould see Roman citizens, just didn't tell us about them. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the Romans would have noticed if the lake was plagued with weeds as noxious as the avern!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it \nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't \nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the\n pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I \nthink it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue \nabout the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great\n lengths to make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens \nwith Lake Avernus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it’s possible to read too much into such identifications; Wolfe references entities such as the Lake and builds in connections to other entities that have classical resonances with it such as the Cumaean. But at the same time, it is not the same lake (there was no Gyoll equivalent near the original Lake Avernas), and the Cumaean is not the classical Cumaean (or she could have raised Apu Punchau without assistance from her acquaintance in Fomalhaut). \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB94590.4080709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:27:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 3:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it\nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't\nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think it would be out of character for him to mention a \ntechnological feature like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And here's the clincher:\n[Lake Avernus] It was linked by a canal to a nearby lake (Lucrinus\nLacus) and from there to the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I suppose he might well have included such a link as a nod to \nthe original Lake Avernus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The lake shore was also connected to\nthe Greek colony of Cumae by an underground passage known as Cocceio's\nCave (Grotta di Cocceio) which was 1 km (0.62 mi) long and wide enough\nto be used by chariots. This was the world's first major road \ntunnel; it\nremained usable until as recently as the 1940s.\n\nDamned if I knew about that! Anyway, the link is obscure, but you can\nalmost see the Wolfean mind at work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t really see the implications of the above, other than the link \nwith the Cumaean which was elsewhere mentioned. I agree that the \noriginal Cumaean prophesy may indeed have a counterpart in the \ncacogenic Cumaean’s relationship to Severian.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two things. First, let's remember that Google wasn't around when BNS was \nwritten, and while I'm sure Wolfe didn't deliberately write for \nseminarians and graduate students, he did intend his connections to be \nvisible. If one guesses a connection on the basis of a few links, one \nshould at least be rewarded with finding a couple more new ones.\n\nSecond, IMHO for the most part he prefers his allusions to be \nconcrete---not merely wordplay. That detail of the pipe, while small, is \nconcrete. And as Bruno points out, connecting a lake to the sea has \npractical plot implications in BNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB94639.1080605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB94396.7050704@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 3:18 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nI have always felt that the Cumaean is in fact the same as the Roman \none, as literally as it is possible to be in an ostensibly different \nuniverse. It has been argued multiple times that she is an alien \n(cacogen/heirodule/...). In our history the Cumaean Sibyls were famous \nfor holding the books of prophecies which she (\"not a native of the \ncountry\") offered to King Tarquin of Rome, with instructive results, \nthen \"disappeared.\" How SFnal can you get without an actual spaceship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like it. There is of course no Cumae in BNS and no explanation of her \nname." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given what goes on in the Botanic Gardens, the idea that the Cumaean \nand her cave might be a survival from a history not unlike our own \nseems an easy step.\n\nAs for the idea that the medieval belief that the Cumaean prophesied \nChrist, and that that is \"the link,\" where does she do so in TBotNS? \nIt is not all about Christ; TBotNS is not a Christian apologetic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She doesn't that I can see, and she doesn't need to, for the reasons you \ngive. But I think BNS is all about existence before-Christ, as Lee has \ncommented." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB9479A.2060209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-20T19:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<9D042E0A8B974564B316446A05B692B6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/20/2012 3:22 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\"The pipe still has to have a purpose. Surely Wolfe did not include it\nsimply because he was worried his readers would complain if he didn't\nexplain the lake, nor to demonstrate the builders' skill in hydrology.\"\nAs little as I know about Wolfe, I feel you must be right. But maybe the\n pipe's purpose is only to give Juturna a way into the Lake, although I\nthink it would be very much like Wolfe to give us such an early clue\nabout the workings of time in Briah. It is obvious that he went to great\n lengths to make his readers identify this part of the Botanic Gardens\nwith Lake Avernus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it’s possible to read too much into such identifications; \nWolfe references entities such as the Lake and builds in connections \nto other entities that have classical resonances with it such as the \nCumaean. But at the same time, it is not the same lake (there was no \nGyoll equivalent near the original Lake Avernas), and the Cumaean is \nnot the classical Cumaean (or she could have raised Apu Punchau \nwithout assistance from her acquaintance in Fomalhaut)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Naturally none of these things are \"the same.\" But it is possible in SF \nto \"transmute\" one thing into another, from historical to fictional. If \nthe universe were science fiction, the Cumaean would be a non-human. And \nthe fact that she disappeared from Italy is just to awesome to ignore.\n\nNote that the Cumaean lived about as long as Inire has been calculated \nto have lived---a thousand years." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T22:20:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB9479A.2060209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alright, let's base our discussion on text. Let me cite some instances from\nSotT, which I think may be useful:\n\n1) Chapter XXIII: Hildegrin says \"'(...) You'll remember, though, that when\nyou come in here, you come up through a hole in the ground'.\"\n\n2) Chapter XXIII: He then points out the Cave of the Cumean, and says that\nsome people believe that this Garden was made just for her (though he\nhimself doesn't). To which Dorcas asks: \"How can it be?\". Hildegrin\nanswers: \"The Autarch wants her here, so he can come and talk to her\nwithout travelin' to the other side of the world\".\n\n3) Chapter XXIII: Severian comments that \"(A spell there was surely, in\nthis garden. I could almost hear it humming over the water, voices chanting\nin a language I did not know but understood.)\"\n\n4) Chapter XXIV: The grass around the avern was \"littered with the curled\nbodies of bees and dotted with the white bones of birds.\"\n\nAlso, from Wikipedia:\n\n[Lake Avernus]\"It is unclear whether the lake actually was as deadly as its\nreputation held it to be — it certainly holds no fears for birds today —\nbut it is possible that volcanic activity could have produced deadly fumes.\"\n\nAnd Severian tells us, in Chapter XXII, that he \"saw geese, alive and\ncontent for all he could tell\".\n\nReference 1) seems to imply that one would enter the Garden of Endless\nSleep through the Cocceio's Cave, mentioned by David. This is also\nsignificant in that it was this tunnel that originally linked lake Avernus\nto the rest of Cumae, and therefore the world. It appears, by the light of\nreference 2), that the Cumaean originally lived \"in the other side of the\nworld\". If the Commonwealth is in fact South America, Italy would really be\nfar away from the house absolute. Due to continent drift, it might even be\nliterally on the other side of the world.\n\nI admit it's a longshot, but 3) may refer to the temporal echoes of people\nspeaking Italian (just as Severian hears the roar of a smilodon far away in\ntime, in the Jungle Garden). If the language of the Commonwealth has it's\nroots in Latin, it may be that he understands it as I, a Brazilian who\ndoesn't speak the language, could understand Italian very well when I was\nin Italy. Furthermore, to my ears Latin sounds like a chant indeed, and\nmore importantly, it is the traditional language for hymns in the Catholic\nfaith.\n\nThe possible presence of averns on Lake Avernus' shores could \"explain\", in\nthe context of Severian's universe, the discrepancy between the reports of\ndead birds in antiquity, and the lake's relative harmlessness today.\nAlthough the Romans might not be able to actually see the averns, maybe\nbecause they were clearly brought there in the future, from another planet,\nthe \"echoes\" of those plants in time might be what killed the birds in that\nperiod. Severian's report of seeing geese may imply that the problem was\nnot in the water." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T23:02:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB94590.4080709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 20/05/2012, ?s 20:27, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Google wasn't around when BNS was written" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think people don't give this its due value. These days everyone's an expert in everything." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0200C775-EAD0-4512-86FF-E48C804528DE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T23:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 20/05/2012, ?s 19:42, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Someone else wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I want to add that the BNS Cumaean is old and creepy, while the Sibyl is portrayed as young and beautiful, even if she is the oldest and least beautiful of the Four Sibyls.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, but according to Wiki \n\n[Cumean Sibyl] \"Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand years. This came about when Apollo offered to grant her a wish in exchange for her virginity; she took a handful of sand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held. Later, after she refused the god's love, he allowed her body to wither away because she failed to ask for eternal youth. Her body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (ampulla). Eventually only her voice was left (Metamorphoses 14; compare the myth of Tithonus).[3]\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Muito interessante n?o s? por causa da Mandr?gora mas tamb?m por ecoar o coment?rio acerca do 'Father Inire' - vivo t?o para al?m do normal para a sua esp?cie, ou coisa parecida. Haver? algu?m compar?vel na mitologia da Sibila, que seja candidato a FI? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-20T23:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I tend to agree with Dave Lebling, in that the Cumaean is the\nSibyl of Cumae. Gerry's claim that, if the old witch was alive in ancient\nRome, she wouldn't really need her \"friend\" in Formalhaut, is very\ncompelling. It is not required, though, that the Cumaean be continuously\nalive since antiquity, in order for her to be the Sibyl. If the Botanic\nGardens function as a gateway in space-time, the witch could simply pass\nfrom antiquity to the very far future without needing to be alive all this\ntime. Therefore she might have \"missed\" the Apu-Punchau period, and not be\nable to raise him. It is also possible that, since Severian was probably\nthe \"real\" inspiration behind the Incan god Inti, he might have become\nApu-Punchau in a mythological age much earlier than the beginning of the\nIncan empire, and therefore maybe even before ancient Rome.\n\nAs of Severian's relation with the Cumaean, I'm inclined to believe that it\ngoes deeper than the obvious. First, because she is clearly one of the\nwitches from the Witches' Tower, and therefore belonged to what seems to be\nthe guild closest to the torturers in the citadel, if that indeed is a\nguild at all, which I doubt. Second, because although Severian is obviously\na Christ figure, he is also a Sun God, what with his being a sun, taking\npower from a sun, and all that. He may be particularly identifiable as\nApollo, for his good looks, sexual appetite, healing powers, and love of\ntales. I also seem to remember something about the torturers apprentices\nhaving sex with the witches, though I don't recall where it was written.\nBut not Severian. He did have a strange encounter with the witches, while\nstill an apprentice, but it was not sexual. All that resonates beautifully\nwith the legend about the Cumean Sibyl, in which Apollo gives her longevity\nin exchange for sex, but withholds youth when the prophetess refuses to\nsleep with him, eventually making it necessary for her to live in a jar, on\naccount of her withered body. Didn't the Mandragora say that it was the\nAutarch who created it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-21T00:03:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Caramba, enrico, n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao\nFather Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de\nprolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais\nminucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano\ncego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e\nera filho de uma ninfa. Ser?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-21T00:39:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Foi mal, quis dizer entonio.\n\nEm 20 de maio de 2012 21:03, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado <\nmeuemaildobruno at gmail.com> escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Caramba, enrico, n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao\nFather Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de\nprolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais\nminucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano\ncego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e\nera filho de uma ninfa. Ser?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FBA3F0F.2090402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-21T13:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2012 7:53 PM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote:\nPersonally, I tend to agree with Dave Lebling, in that the Cumaean is\nthe Sibyl of Cumae. Gerry's claim that, if the old witch was alive in\nancient Rome, she wouldn't really need her \"friend\" in Formalhaut, is\nvery compelling. It is not required, though, that the Cumaean be\ncontinuously alive since antiquity, in order for her to be the Sibyl.\nIf the Botanic Gardens function as a gateway in space-time, the witch\ncould simply pass from antiquity to the very far future without\nneeding to be alive all this time. Therefore she might have \"missed\"\nthe Apu-Punchau period, and not be able to raise him. It is also\npossible that, since Severian was probably the \"real\" inspiration\nbehind the Incan god Inti, he might have become Apu-Punchau in a\nmythological age much earlier than the beginning of the Incan empire,\nand therefore maybe even before ancient Rome.\n\nAs of Severian's relation with the Cumaean, I'm inclined to believe\nthat it goes deeper than the obvious. First, because she is clearly\none of the witches from the Witches' Tower, and therefore belonged to\nwhat seems to be the guild closest to the torturers in the citadel, if\nthat indeed is a guild at all, which I doubt. Second, because although\nSeverian is obviously a Christ figure, he is also a Sun God, what with\nhis being a sun, taking power from a sun, and all that. He may be\nparticularly identifiable as Apollo, for his good looks,\nsexual appetite, healing powers, and love of tales. I also seem to\nremember something about the torturers apprentices having sex with the\nwitches, though I don't recall where it was written. But not Severian.\nHe did have a strange encounter with the witches, while still an\napprentice, but it was not sexual. All that resonates beautifully with\nthe legend about the Cumean Sibyl, in which Apollo gives her longevity\nin exchange for sex, but withholds youth when the prophetess refuses\nto sleep with him, eventually making it necessary for her to live in a\njar, on account of her withered body. Didn't the Mandragora say that\nit was the Autarch who created it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian as Apollo! That's very good.\n\nThe Mandragora as Sibyl? Even better!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-21T13:23:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FBA3F0F.2090402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But I think BNS is all about existence before-Christ, as Lee has \ncommented." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is my view. I think Gene Wolfe sees pre-christian earth as a place filled with\ngods, monsters, angels/demons and Christ precursors such as Dionysus, Alexander and the Cumaean \nSibyl. He illustrates his view in SF/Fantasy form with BotNS. \n \nThus he populates the story with characters such as Abaia, Father Inire, Typhon, Tzadkiel \nand of course the Cumaean. Gerry's urgings that we remember the narrative plot purpose \nof these characters are appropriate. But I find the pagan subtext to add depth and texture.\n \nThe idea that the Cumaean character represents the real Cumaean sybil from earth is a cool \none. I suppose the evidence from the text could be debated on this but, like most other \ndebates here, I think the conclusion would remain moot.\n \nGood research in recognizing that the Cumaean Sybil did eventually become old and shrivelled\nand was associated with snakes (and vampires) through the Pythian Oracle at Delphi and the \nlamia connection. \n \nI've long thought the Old Leech was the Cumaean in disguise. The Old Leech is connected to \nVodulus as is the Cumaean (through Hildegrin). The lamia were snake-women who stole children \nto drink their blood (remembering the poor youth Mamas in the story).\n \nI also think the Cumaean is in disguise as the necromancer, Ceryx. I tend to think all the encounters between the Cumaean and Severian, perhaps even the first in the Witches Tower were \npre-arranged, not chance meetings. I think the (never fulfilled) purpose of the meetings was to wrest from Severian the secret of the one (christ-like) power the pagan deities (even Tzadkiel) \ndid not possess: true resurrection, be it the life of a human being or a planet.\n \nThere are some interesting literary references in the wikipedia article on the Cumaean Sibyl.\nThere is Robert Graves, whose work many find to have a link with BotNS. There is Mary Shelley\nwho is rather explicitly referenced in BotNS. And there is the epigraph to Eliot's \"The Waste Land\": " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"For I myself once saw with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in her jar, and when the boys asked her, >'Sibyl, what do you want?' she answered 'I want to die.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis would go along with Bruno's insight that The Cumaean might be associated with the Mandragora. That's a new idea/connection I'm very pleased has been unearthed. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<43A29C07-ED16-454B-BF94-DA29B4F0BB9B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T11:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 21/05/2012, ?s 01:03, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Caramba, enrico," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Na verdade ? 'Ant?nio', mas j? n?o havia..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao Father Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de prolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais minucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano cego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e era filho de uma ninfa. Ser?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that you mention him, it would be odd if Wolfe *didn't* have a Tiresias somewhere. But I'm not sure he qualifies, theres a lot going on in his life that apparently has no FI counterpart... though iirc one of Tiresias's epithets was 'father'..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FBB857A.5030806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-22T12:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<43A29C07-ED16-454B-BF94-DA29B4F0BB9B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2012 7:37 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 21/05/2012, ?s 01:03, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Caramba, enrico,\nNa verdade ? 'Ant?nio', mas j? n?o havia..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "n?o esperava ler algo em portugu?s nessa lista. Quanto ao Father Inire, isso — uma boa pergunta... Existem v?rias inst?ncias de prolongamento da vida na mitologia grega, mas isso vale um exame mais minucioso. Tir?sias — uma possibilidade forte. Ele era um profeta tebano cego, e que viveu muito tempo (al?m de ser ocasionalmente ressucitado), e era filho de uma ninfa. Ser?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that you mention him, it would be odd if Wolfe *didn't* have a Tiresias somewhere. But I'm not sure he qualifies, theres a lot going on in his life that apparently has no FI counterpart... though iirc one of Tiresias's epithets was 'father'..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Take a little trip back with Father Tiresias,\nListen to the old one speak of all he has lived through.\nI have crossed between the poles, for me there's no mystery.\nOnce a man, like the sea I raged,\nOnce a woman, like the earth I gave.\nBut there is in fact more earth than sea.\n\n---/Cinema Show, /Genesis\n\nWhich Tiresias? Genderbender, blind seer, mediator between gods and men, \naccursed of the gods, or prophet of Apollo?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68959DB50A00444583E1889390744194@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T14:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FB94590.4080709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two things. First, let's remember that Google wasn't around when BNS was \nwritten, and while I'm sure Wolfe didn't deliberately write for \nseminarians and graduate students, he did intend his connections to be \nvisible. If one guesses a connection on the basis of a few links, one \nshould at least be rewarded with finding a couple more new ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but that award should not be a significant plot point. More resemblances to the original Lake Avernus are fine, but one should stop short of drawing conclusions about the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, IMHO for the most part he prefers his allusions to be \nconcrete---not merely wordplay. That detail of the pipe, while small, is \nconcrete. And as Bruno points out, connecting a lake to the sea has \npractical plot implications in BNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it were a canal like the original, it might have more.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T15:14:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4FBB857A.5030806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Which Tiresias? Genderbender, blind seer, mediator between gods and men,\naccursed of the gods, or prophet of Apollo?\"\n\nYou forgot one: \"Royal councilor\". As in the guy who councils the kings of\nThebes, Odisseus, and so forth. But still I tend to agree with Ant?nio, in\nthat there's much which doesn't fit in this theory. For instance, I feel\nthat in order to make an association with Tiresias, blindness would be an\nimportant feature. But to my knowledge, there's nothing indicating that FI\ncould be blind. Also, it appears that the deformed old guide wearing a\nmask, when Severian is in the power of Vodalus, is FI. That guide and his\nhelper are reported to have \"dark skin\" though, which probably means\nthey're autochthons." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T15:33:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Yes, but that award should not be a significant plot point. More\nresemblances to the original Lake Avernus are fine, but one should stop\nshort of drawing conclusions about the characters.\"\n\nWhile in the subject of more resemblances to the original lake, I'd like to\npoint out that Hildegrin explains that the Lake of Birds is \"made to look\nlike the mouth of a volcaner\", and Lake Avernus is indeed the crater of a\nvolcano. In my opinion, there are too many similarities not to make a\ndirect identification. As I see it, the Garden of Endless Sleep is either a\nreconstruction, by some Autarch, of the region around Avernus, or the place\nitself. That is, if you presume that Urth is actually Earth, or something\nvery similar to it, millions of years in the future." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337704543.61714.YahooMailNeo@web84511.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-22T16:35:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<68959DB50A00444583E1889390744194@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:59 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\n\n\n?\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n?> " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two things. First, let's remember that Google wasn't around when BNS was " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " written, \nand while I'm sure Wolfe didn't deliberately write for \n seminarians \nand graduate students, he did intend his connections to be \n visible. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If one guesses a connection on the basis of a few links, one " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " should " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "at least be rewarded with finding a couple more new ones. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "but that award should not be a significant plot point. More resemblances \nto the original Lake Avernus are fine, but one should stop short of drawing \nconclusions about the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---My point was that important connections should be multiple. Here is a multiple connection. Conclusions drawn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Second, \nIMHO for the most part he prefers his allusions to be \n concrete---not \nmerely wordplay. That detail of the pipe, while small, is \n concrete. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And as Bruno points out, connecting a lake to the sea has " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " practical " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "plot implications in BNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If \nit were a canal like the original, it might have more.\n\n---And would it help if they sold gelato from little carts there in the summer?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337705775.8065.YahooMailNeo@web84501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-22T16:56:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. I take it to be a reconstruction myself, but I can't argue against it being the real thing.\n\nIn fact I think this is one of those points where I can hear Wolfe chuckling at his postmodern joke, because it was of course Wolfe himself who \"made the Lake of Birds to look like\" Avernus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:33 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\n\n\n\"Yes, but that award should not be a significant plot point. More resemblances to the original Lake Avernus are fine, but one should stop short of drawing conclusions about the characters.\"\n\n\nWhile in the subject of more resemblances to the original lake, I'd like to point out that Hildegrin explains that the Lake of Birds is \"made to look like the mouth of a volcaner\", and Lake Avernus is indeed the crater of a volcano. In my opinion, there are too many similarities not to make a direct identification. As I see it, the Garden of Endless Sleep is either a reconstruction, by some Autarch, of the region around Avernus, or the place itself. That is, if you presume that Urth is actually Earth, or something very similar to it, millions of years in the future.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T17:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337705775.8065.YahooMailNeo@web84501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\" Yep. I take it to be a reconstruction myself, but I can't argue against\nit being the real thing. \"\n\nFor me, the problem with it being a reconstruction is that the Commonwealth\nis so far in the future, that it's highly unlikely that the Lake is still\nthere, or that any descriptions of it have survived. Without time travel,\nwhere would an Autarch have gotten Lake Avernus from, anyway?\n\n\"In fact I think this is one of those points where I can hear Wolfe\nchuckling at his postmodern joke, because it was of course Wolfe himself\nwho \"made the Lake of Birds to look like\" Avernus.\"\n\nCertainly, specially since Wolfe makes sure to indicate that the author is\nalso part of the story. As I see it, he even includes himself as a\ncharacter: the \"G.W.\" that translates a text in \"a language that has not\nyet achieved existence\". It's easy to forget, but the BotNS is supposed to\nbe a \"translation\", and furthermore one in which the translator is striving\nnot to invent words. Therefore names and terms that seem to evoke mythology\nfor us, such as \"Dorcas\" and \"Cumaean\" and \"Typhon\", may not be the\nmythological beings themselves at all, nor even those characters' \"real\"\nnames. They might actually be conscious choices by the \"translator\", who in\nhis unwillingness to invent new words, ends up making parallels between the\ncharacters of the supposed \"original text\", and creatures from Earthly\nlore. But that should be the subject of a whole other thread." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337709380.64564.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-22T17:56:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:14 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\n\n\n\"Which Tiresias? Genderbender, blind seer, mediator between gods and men, accursed of the gods, or prophet of Apollo?\"\n\n\nYou forgot one: \"Royal councilor\". As in the guy who councils the kings of Thebes, Odisseus, and so forth. But still I tend to agree with Ant?nio, in that there's much which doesn't fit in this theory. For instance, I feel that in order to make an association with Tiresias, blindness would be an important feature. But to my knowledge, there's nothing indicating that FI could be blind. Also, it appears that the deformed old guide wearing a mask, when Severian is in the power of Vodalus, is FI. That guide and his helper are reported to have \"dark skin\" though, which probably means they're autochthons.\n\nThat's probably the most applicable one, although it derives from his prophetic powers. In literature especially (Oedipus), Tiresias was indeed a royal adviser, which makes him a mediator between gods and kings. I like \"prophet of Apollo\" too, for reasons below. \n\nThe thing about mythical allusion is that there is always more material than you can possibly use. You can't expect it all to fit just because a few salient points correspond. Moreover, not only do Tiresias' blindness and gender experiences come from curses, so they are not an essential part of his being, but it wouldn't necessarily matter if they were. These are allusions, not legal documents. We don't need to give " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire a gynecological or eye exam, if neither of those things come up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More awkwardly---if I understand the various contradictory stories correctly---he may have owed all his powers to blessings given to make up for those curses. Which would mean that Tiresias became a seer after he was blinded. As it happens, he was priest of Apollo first, so that's not entirely true. He simply became a better seer. \n\nSo I don't have a problem with this allusion at all! I heartily support it. \n\nI wonder however if it does not point us in another direction: if Inire is indeed blind, then Wolfe covers it with a cowl, because we never see it or Severian never remarks on it. Therefore any potential Inire must wear a cowl. This would tend to severely limit the \"Elvis is everywhere\" theory of Father Inire---perhaps too severely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337709488.49487.YahooMailNeo@web84503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-22T17:58:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:43 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\"In fact I think this is one of those points where I can hear Wolfe chuckling at his postmodern joke, because it was of course Wolfe himself who \"made the Lake of Birds to look like\" Avernus.\"\n\n\nCertainly, specially since Wolfe makes sure to indicate that the author is also part of the story. As I see it, he even includes himself as a character: the \"G.W.\" that translates a text in \"a language that has not yet achieved existence\". It's easy to forget, but the BotNS is supposed to be a \"translation\", and furthermore one in which the translator is striving not to invent words. Therefore names and terms that seem to evoke mythology for us, such as \"Dorcas\" and \"Cumaean\" and \"Typhon\", may not be the mythological beings themselves at all, nor even those characters' \"real\" names. They might actually be conscious choices by the \"translator\", who in his unwillingness to invent new words, ends up making parallels between the characters of the supposed \"original text\", and creatures from Earthly lore.\n\n---Yes, that's his excuse at least. It's good to be reminded of this from time to time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T18:37:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I've long thought the Old Leech was the Cumaean in disguise. The Old Leech\nis connected to\nVodulus as is the Cumaean (through Hildegrin). The lamia were snake-women\nwho stole children\nto drink their blood (remembering the poor youth Mamas in the story).\n\nI also think the Cumaean is in disguise as the necromancer, Ceryx. I tend\nto think all the encounters between the Cumaean and Severian, perhaps even\nthe first in the Witches Tower were\npre-arranged, not chance meetings. I think the (never fulfilled) purpose of\nthe meetings was to wrest from Severian the secret of the one (christ-like)\npower the pagan deities (even Tzadkiel)\ndid not possess: true resurrection, be it the life of a human being or a\nplanet.\"\n\nThe Old Leech as the Cumaean in disguise is an intriguing notion, but what\nother evidence do you have of this? The blood bat that attacks Severian at\nthe ziggurat is also an indicative of vampirism, and everything about the\nOld Leech character seems to revolve around blood.\n\nAs for Ceryx, I don't really see the connection, but obviously that doesn't\nmean it's not there. Another problem is that this would make the Cumaean a\ndemonic character, which wasn't really my impression of her upon reading\nthe books." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T21:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/05/2012, ?s 18:43, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". It's easy to forget, but the BotNS is supposed to be a \"translation\", and furthermore one in which the translator is striving not to invent words. Therefore names and terms that seem to evoke mythology for us, such as \"Dorcas\" and \"Cumaean\" and \"Typhon\", may not be the mythological beings themselves at all, nor even those characters' \"real\" names. They might actually be conscious choices by the \"translator\", who in his unwillingness to invent new words, ends up making parallels between the characters of the supposed \"original text\", and creatures from Earthly lore. But that should be the subject of a whole other thread" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's actually continually discussed here, not at all forgotten. Give the list some credit!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A9AE02C-51AD-4BEC-B2B7-AE2A5FBFC66D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-22T21:22:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/05/2012, ?s 19:37, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) is an intriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Halt! There's someone hereabouts with no qualms about asserting the most groundless and inconsistent stuff as if it were established common knowledge. You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult before. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T00:38:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"It's actually continually discussed here, not at all forgotten. Give the\nlist some credit!\"\n\nSorry. As I said, I didn't read most of the archives. What I meant is that\nit's easy to forget while you're reading the books." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T00:43:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<0A9AE02C-51AD-4BEC-B2B7-AE2A5FBFC66D@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult\nbefore.\"\n\nOops, I didn't realize that. Only asked because I actually wanted to\nunderstand the connection." } ] }, { "message_id": "<91E72238-05B2-4C82-8BE7-A45204569479@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T02:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 23/05/2012, ?s 01:43, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult before.\"\n\nOops, I didn't realize that. Only asked because I actually wanted to understand the connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Homem prevenido vale por dois. \nOf course, even the people with the most egregious ideas here sometimes come up with useful insights. More than me, for instance; I never come up with anything. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337742261.63030.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T03:04:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<91E72238-05B2-4C82-8BE7-A45204569479@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 23/05/2012, ?s 01:43, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"You'd be wise not to ask for evidence, it's been taken as a vicious insult before.\"\n\nOops, I didn't realize that. Only asked because I actually wanted to understand the connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll figure out who is whose enemy soon enough, or learn to ignore the enmity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Homem prevenido vale por dois. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In English, \"Forewarned is four-armed\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, even the people with the most egregious ideas here sometimes come up with useful insights. More than me, for instance; I never come up with anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in a somewhat similar position.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T03:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337742261.63030.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"You'll figure out who is whose enemy soon enough, or learn to ignore the\nenmity.\"\n\nThis mailing list is sounding more like serious academia by the minute.\n\n\"In English, \"Forewarned is four-armed\".\"\n\nThanks, I had never heard this expression in English." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337745505.92725.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T03:58:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"In English, \"Forewarned is four-armed\".\"\n\nThanks, I had never heard this expression in English." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The real expression is \"Forewarned is forearmed.\"? \"Forearmed\" means \"armed in advance\" and is hardly ever used outside this proverb. — I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the Portuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of limbs on Blue and Green.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337746173.51911.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T04:09:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337745505.92725.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew when I saw the term \"egregious ideas\" bandied about my name would soon follow one way or another heh heh\n\n--- On Tue, 5/22/12, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 8:58 PM\nFrom: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"In English, \"Forewarned is four-armed\".\"\n\nThanks, I had never heard this expression in English." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The real expression is \"Forewarned is forearmed.\"? \"Forearmed\"? means \"armed in advance\" and is hardly ever used outside this proverb. — I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the Portuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of limbs on Blue and Green.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T04:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337746173.51911.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the\nPortuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of\nlimbs on Blue and Green.)\"\n\nI thought it meant \"armed fourfold\" or something. But great sequence of\nanalogies!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FBCB5FB.3050209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-23T10:03:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/23/2012 12:26 AM, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado wrote:\n\"I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the \nPortuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling \nof limbs on Blue and Green.)\"\n\nI thought it meant \"armed fourfold\" or something. But great sequence \nof analogies!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not know the Portuguese were familiar with the races of old Mars.\n\nAlso, one could be four-warned. But if one needs to be warned four times \n. . . well, then you're useless. Usually you get only three warnings \nbefore being turned into a pig." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A18165D-2FEF-4CE7-8C5E-454E3CF4803F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T11:14:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337746173.51911.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey! Your ideas are only egregious in the etymological sense!\nThe current Portuguese national anthem speaks of 'your egregious grandparents'; nobody knows what it means (the fatherland's outstanding forefathers).\n\nNo dia 23/05/2012, ?s 05:09, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I knew when I saw the term \"egregious ideas\" bandied about my name would soon follow one way or another heh heh\n\n--- On Tue, 5/22/12, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 8:58 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"In English, \"Forewarned is four-armed\".\"\n\nThanks, I had never heard this expression in English. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real expression is \"Forewarned is forearmed.\" \"Forearmed\" means \"armed in advance\" and is hardly ever used outside this proverb. I was making a joke--a man with four arms is worth two men, as in the Portuguese proverb. (This leads us to Marc's ideas about the doubling of limbs on Blue and Green.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T13:15:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4A18165D-2FEF-4CE7-8C5E-454E3CF4803F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: The Old Leech as the Cumaean in disguise is an \nintriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNone that would be universally persuasive of course. But in 25 years of reading\nBotNS, I always had the sense there was a hidden subtext to the story. My views\non the Cumaean are related to a gradually evolved theory I have regarding this\nsubtext.\n \nWolfe reveals that the Old Leech is from Nessus (like the Cumaean in Witches Tower), \nis willing to use young boys for unsavory purposes (like the witches), is very \nfamiliar with the eating of the dead w/alzabo (as are witches; evidence can be \nprovided for this). All this detail is not necessary to serve the Leech's place \nin the plot so why is it included? I think these are hints that we know this \nLeech from somewhere else in the story.\n \nThe Old Leech says he is there in an isolated jungle ziggurat because he seeks\nknowledge which can't be found in Nessus or via eating the dead. Not even if all\nthe great scholars of the past were available. This raises two demanding questions\nfor me: 1. what is the nature of this knowledge?; 2. how does the Leech expect to find\nit in the ziggurat?\n \nMy conclusion is that the Leech is only in the ziggurat because Severian is there and\nhe is the source of the secret knowlege being sought. I think Severian has been\nherded from one adventure to another in this story, from Dorcas to avern to notule to\nStone Town etc. to test and wrest the secret of true resurrection that only he\npossesses.(the idea that restoring life is the ultimate forbidden/sacred knowledge is a\ncommon trope in fantasy, myth and religion)\n \nI'll mention that I think it likely that The Cumaean and Father Inire are probably the\nsame person, or perhaps more precisely, different aspects of the same larger super-\nhuman character. Notice that as the character of the Old Leech disappears, the character\nof the Jungle Guide appears (whom most agree is Father Inire).\n \nI should explain that I don't find the apparent gender difference to be important. Nor\nis the perception of good or evil in certain characters very important. I consider Urth to\nbe a gnostic world and thus ruled by a gnostic deity. In fact, such a deity is specifically\nmentioned in the text: The Abraxas. This Lord of All Opposites (male-female; good-evil etc.) \nwas reviled as a demon by early Judeo-Christians but worshipped by others as a higher god \nthan the incomplete male Jehovah. (I notice that as the Jungle Guide character disappears\nthe androgynous Green Man appears. In pagan mythology there is a thread of connection \nbetween The Green Man, Pan (Pas), Dionysus and The Abraxas)\n \nSo when I suggest Ceryx is the same as (or an aspect of) The Cumaean I also mean Father\nInire. There is the shared fascination with necromancy and raising of the dead which\nconnects to The Cumaean. But there is Ceryx's staff capped by a human head which mirrors\nthe Jungle Guide's staff capped by a monkey head.\n \nMoreover, the entire history of the Commonwealth is marked by a succession of figurehead\nAutarchs, drawn from the populace, who are essentially under the sway of a persistent, \nageless vizier who (as we see from Inire's Letter) feigns subservience while controlling\nand directing everything.\n \nWhen Typhon ruled did he have a vizier? I think he did in Ceryx. As through all the BotNS,\nthe Ceryx encounter tests Severian's power of resurrection and I think it was pre-arranged.\nSoon after the Ceryx encounter, Severian is arrested and brought before a disabled Typhon\nand asked for a demonstration of his power. Thus I think Father Inire's role as vizier\nstarted before The Commonwealth and the Autarchs. \n \nFWIW, I think Wolfe wants us to recognize that good and evil are both used equally by \nGod/Increate as the hammer and anvil by which we are forged. Still, we may recognize who\nhe wants to identify as good and evil by adherence to Christian values. Those who embrace \npagan practices such as witchcraft, corpse eating, pedophilia, bestiality, human \nexperimentation, etc. are evil. Angels are good. Severian, as a reformed torturer, is a \npagan trying to become more Christian.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T15:15:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<4A18165D-2FEF-4CE7-8C5E-454E3CF4803F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\" Usually you get only three warnings before being turned into a pig. \"\n\nIf you're on Odisseus' rowing team, not even that many. One, at most." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337788602.20785.YahooMailNeo@web84520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-23T15:56:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Random thoughts in response below ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: urth at urth.net \nSent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:15 AM\nSubject: (urth) Lake of Birds" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: The Old Leech as the Cumaean in disguise is an \nintriguing notion, but what other evidence do you have of this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None that would be universally persuasive of course. But in 25 years of reading\nBotNS, I always had the sense there was a hidden subtext to the story. My views\non the Cumaean are related to a gradually evolved theory I have regarding this\nsubtext.\n\nWolfe reveals that the Old Leech is from Nessus (like the Cumaean in Witches Tower), \nis willing to use young boys for unsavory purposes (like the witches), is very \nfamiliar with the eating of the dead w/alzabo (as are witches; evidence can be \nprovided for this). All this detail is not necessary to serve the Leech's place \nin the plot so why is it included? I think these are hints that we know this \nLeech from somewhere else in the story.\n\nThe Old Leech says he is there in an isolated jungle ziggurat because he seeks\nknowledge which can't be found in Nessus or via eating the dead. Not even if all\nthe great scholars of the past were available. This raises two demanding questions\nfor me: 1. what is the nature of this knowledge?; 2. how does the Leech expect to find\nit in the ziggurat?\n\n---Not to say these are not good questions, but for me another question is raised---how much of this is mere hugger-mugger?\n\nI think there's a consensus on this board that Wolfe hangs his bigger works on preexisting, usually mythical literary structures. So much of this goes on that half of what we discuss and argue here is correspondences to those structures. A constant source of misunderstanding is how rigid or \"literal\" these correspondences need to be to be real. How much freedom does Wolfe have to flesh out his rooms once he has laid the foundations and built the walls? Another way to put this is that there must be someone on Urth who doesn't have a bone to pick with Severian. Which way to go in this case?\n\nFor me, the more the Leech can be made to identify with a figure already alluded to, the better---but not necessarily a character already in the book.\n\n\n\nMy conclusion is that the Leech is only in the ziggurat because Severian is there and\nhe is the source of the secret knowlege being sought. I think Severian has been\nherded from one adventure to another in this story, from Dorcas to avern to notule to\nStone Town etc. to test and wrest the secret of true resurrection that only he\npossesses.(the idea that restoring life is the ultimate forbidden/sacred knowledge is a\ncommon trope in fantasy, myth and religion)\n\nI'll mention that I think it likely that The Cumaean and Father Inire are probably the\nsame person, or perhaps more precisely, different aspects of the same larger super-\nhuman character. Notice that as the character of the Old Leech disappears, the character\nof the Jungle Guide appears (whom most agree is Father Inire).\n\n---Eternal life is indeed a common trope. Who then in classical myth does this point to?\n\nBut where in myth are a witch and a leech the same person? Note however that if you accept Inire as Tiresias and Tiresias as the male aspect of the Sibyl, the problem in your next comment about gender difference goes away.\n\n\n\nI should explain that I don't find the apparent gender difference to be important. Nor\nis the perception of good or evil in certain characters very important. I consider Urth to\nbe a gnostic world and thus? ruled by a gnostic deity. In fact, such a deity is specifically\nmentioned in the text: The Abraxas. This Lord of All Opposites (male-female; good-evil etc.) \nwas reviled as a demon by early Judeo-Christians but worshipped by others as a higher god \nthan the incomplete male Jehovah. (I notice that as the Jungle Guide character disappears\nthe androgynous Green Man appears. In pagan mythology there is a thread of connection \nbetween The Green Man, Pan (Pas), Dionysus and The Abraxas)\n\nSo when I suggest Ceryx is the same as (or an aspect of) The Cumaean I also mean Father\nInire. There is the shared fascination with necromancy and raising of the dead which\nconnects to The Cumaean. But there is Ceryx's staff capped by a human head which mirrors\nthe Jungle Guide's staff capped by a monkey head.\n\n---Did the Cumaean raise Apu-Punchau, or did Severian?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1337788746.25495.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-05-23T15:59:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends on the story. In one version, a bird Circe had transformed from a king tries to warn them three times.\n\nI'm not sure if that's canon (i.e., Homer) or from a spinoff series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:15 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lake of Birds\n\n\n\" Usually you get only three warnings before being turned into a pig. \"\n\n\nIf you're on Odisseus' rowing team, not even that many. One, at most.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-23T16:22:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337788746.25495.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Depends on the story. In one version, a bird Circe had transformed from a\nking tries to warn them three times.\n\nI'm not sure if that's canon (i.e., Homer) or from a spinoff series.\"\n\nThe Homeric version has Hermes warn Odisseus in the wilderness, before he\nreaches Circe's house." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-26T18:56:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<1337788602.20785.YahooMailNeo@web84520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Severian, as a reformed torturer, is a pagan trying to become more\nChristian.\"\n\nThat is an appealing notion, particularly since in the beginning Severian\ndoes not seem to have any control over his specifically Christ-like powers,\nsuch as resurrection, but does have a degree of control over healing, using\nthe Claw.\n\n \"Did the Cumaean raise Apu-Punchau, or did Severian?\"\n\nI don't think anyone ever \"raised\" Apu-Punchau as Severian resurrected\nother characters. My impression was rather that the Cumaean had taken the\ngroup back in time, to the Apu-Punchau period." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8EBE08F5-A252-43E1-B90D-97D10AA654DC@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-27T00:42:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/05/2012, ?s 19:56, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think anyone ever \"raised\" Apu-Punchau as Severian resurrected other characters. My impression was rather" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha! You're clearly unfamiliar with the view that there are no 'rather's - every (un)thinkable hypothesis has as much or more weight than the clearly laid out sequence of events in the text. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that the Cumaean had taken the group back in time, to the Apu-Punchau period. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't there something about it being AP himself that moved them in time?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-28T07:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<8EBE08F5-A252-43E1-B90D-97D10AA654DC@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado: \"Severian, as a reformed torturer, is a pagan " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "trying to become more Christian.\" That is an appealing notion.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nActually it is a Wolfe quote or a close paraphrase to one. I'm too lazy to \n\ncheck, heh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Did the Cumaean raise Apu-Punchau, or did Severian?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think anyone ever \"raised\" Apu-Punchau as Severian resurrected\nother characters. My impression was rather that the Cumaean had taken the\ngroup back in time, to the Apu-Punchau period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio: Wasn't there something about it being AP himself that moved them in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, I agree that there is a deliberate ambiguity on who is doing the action \n\nhere. The Cumaean, Severian and Apu Punchau (the latter two who, of course, \n\nshare identity) all seem to contribute. \n\n \n\nWith regard to the issue of time travel vs. resurrection are we sure there is\n\na difference? It is resurrected Dorcas (perhaps she has special insight?) who \n\nsuggests that Severian's powers involve bending time to a place before or after \n\nan injury has occurred.\n\n \n\nThe swarms of bugs and reverse assembly of the Stone Town reminds me of \n\nSeverian's resurrection of the assassin in the Secret House in UotNS. And \n\nduring the seance, Severian tells Dorcas that what they are seeing is more \n\nthan the one instant time we humans normally see. I think this idea of\n\ninhabiting an atemporal region to accomplish time travel is expanded upon\n\nin UotNS with the Brook Madregot.\n\n \n\nFor me, this fits what I think is Wolfe's general theme: that what we read about\n\nin mythogy and ancient religion has a scientific basis. Ancient gods, angels and \n\ndemons might be aliens. Perhaps even the heretical notion that Jesus accomplished \n\nhis miracles (including resurrection and Second Coming) through manipulation of\n\ntime.\n\n \n\nI'll also say that I think Wolfe describes things like time travel and multiple \n\nuniverses ambiguously with a purpose. We get a glimpse of these things but\n\nwe are not supposed to understand them in a comprehensive or scientific manner.\n\nBecause, as humans, they are beyond our comprehension. That's why they are \n\nsupernatural/divine. Perhaps when we evolve into higher beings, and can move\n\nbeyond science, we will possess the mental facilities to understand such things \n\nmore fully.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado", "address": "meuemaildobruno at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-28T21:23:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "<8EBE08F5-A252-43E1-B90D-97D10AA654DC@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Wasn't there something about it being AP himself that moved them in time?\"\n\nYes, there is. Severian tells someone - I think it was Cyriaca - that an\nold woman outside of the stone town had told him that Apu-Punchau was a\n\"vivimancer\", some kind of dead necromancer, with power over the living.\n\n\"Ha! You're clearly unfamiliar with the view that there are no 'rather's -\nevery (un)thinkable hypothesis has as much or more weight than the clearly\nlaid out sequence of events in the text.\"\n\nI am beginning to sense some irony and cynicism in your comments... No,\nprobably just imagining it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-28T21:37:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 28/05/2012, ?s 22:23, Bruno de Albuquerque Furtado escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ha! You're clearly unfamiliar with the view that there are no 'rather's - every (un)thinkable hypothesis has as much or more weight than the clearly laid out sequence of events in the text.\"\n\nI am beginning to sense some irony and cynicism in your comments... No, probably just imagining it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not the kind to engage in public sex!\nIt is generally accepted that any given thing in a good book may have more than one valid interpretation, not only like Aristotle's things that may have several causes, but also like Gandalf's name Incanus which may be Quenya or Latin, or like Orthanc's name which also has more than one reading. In this latter sense, Wolfe's books are a bit special in that it is generally agreed that all the alternative readings can coexist, rather than only one of them being valid depending on perspective. BUT some take this too far, almost to a caricature, and some caricatures are Lesser than their originals." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-05-29T12:32:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lake of Birds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: Wolfe's books are a bit special in that it is generally agreed \nthat all the alternative readings can coexist, rather than only one of \nthem being valid depending on perspective. BUT some take this too far, \nalmost to a caricature, and some caricatures are Lesser than their originals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some feel this List exists to establish a canon of \"accepted lupine gospel\"\nas Roy once put it. A panel to establish the proper, accepted and/or correct\nway to interpret Gene Wolfe.\n \nI can see the value in this approach for science. Science is used in technology\nand we can hope for the best effort in not blowing things up or having them fall\napart. I don't see a similar value in reading fiction.\n \nUnlike science, the act of reading is an almost sacred one-on-one activity between \nreader and author. It isn't a group activity. I participate in this List to share \nideas but ultimately the interpretation I have is personal and individualized. I \ndon't see the value in a rating system of other members- \"well, he goes too far, \nbut this other one doesn't go far enough..\" etc.\n \nAs I see it, the attempt to create and even enforce a canon of correct thought\nwith regard to Wolfe is similar to taking the sacred, individualized act of prayer \nand turning it into organized religion. What I do find interesting is that the main \nparticipants in the attempt to establish correct guidelines of Wolfe interpretation \nare, themselves, atheists. Perhaps a compensation is being made. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FC8FDAC.4070606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-06-01T17:36:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone had a chance to read any of the musings (as opposed to the \nfictions) of GK Chesterton? They're all free for Kindle, and I recommend \nthem. Wolfe holds him in high regard, and it's easy to see why. He had \nsome fascinating opinions on myths and religion and other things, and an \namazing way of making a point indirectly but powerfully. You read him \nand say, \"I see what you did there. Points to you.\"\n\nOne of his essays is about how the moon is obviously not made of green \ncheese, but certainly is made of cheese. He theorizes that by the end of \ntime, it will have aged to greenness, if not beyond. He doesn't say, but \nhe almost seems to be suggesting that the popular myth amounts to \nforeknowledge.\n\nPerhaps this is why Severian does not elaborate on the history of green \nLune." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-01T17:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<4FC8FDAC.4070606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chesterton is wonderful, especially when he's just tossing ideas about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHas anyone had a chance to read any of the musings (as opposed to the\nfictions) of GK Chesterton? They're all free for Kindle, and I recommend\nthem. Wolfe holds him in high regard, and it's easy to see why. He had some\nfascinating opinions on myths and religion and other things, and an amazing\nway of making a point indirectly but powerfully. You read him and say, \"I\nsee what you did there. Points to you.\"\n\nOne of his essays is about how the moon is obviously not made of green\ncheese, but certainly is made of cheese. He theorizes that by the end of\ntime, it will have aged to greenness, if not beyond. He doesn't say, but he\nalmost seems to be suggesting that the popular myth amounts to\nforeknowledge.\n\nPerhaps this is why Severian does not elaborate on the history of green\nLune.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8885B2BE-8043-413C-A3C5-F7BD62827001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-01T19:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<4FC8FDAC.4070606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FC91D00.2070505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-06-01T19:50:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<8885B2BE-8043-413C-A3C5-F7BD62827001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nI think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his \nreligion? I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its \nexpression in the press." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-01T20:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<4FC91D00.2070505@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, one has to allow for his ideas about things like women's suffrage..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 12:50 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to\nbe offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than\nquantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything\nelse.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon\nhimself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion? I\nespecially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the\npress.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1338581149.29834.YahooMailNeo@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-06-01T20:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<8885B2BE-8043-413C-A3C5-F7BD62827001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"entonio at gmail.com\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chesterton doesn't offend me, but a lot of what I've read of his just seems silly (as well as brilliant and unbelievably original), including the essay where he says the moon is made of cheese. It's available on line, by the way.\n\nhttp://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/20456/\n\nI agree with David that the essay may well have suggested or supported Wolfe's decision to make Lune green. (The \"forests\" are obviously giant low-gravity mold.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past\nanything else.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe Wolfe just doesn't have much of a taste for controversy and prefers to keep his ideas in fiction, where a lot of people will find them entertaining.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74B7F973-D3CB-41A5-A099-44606546F914@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-04T23:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<4FC91D00.2070505@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 01/06/2012, ?s 20:50, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Orthodoxy_ reads like a scathing attack on most non-catholic philosophy. I've met few priests as sage as Father Brown and none so outspoken. _The man who was thursday_ seems to unrelentingly mock socialists. Jerry can see the wit in it even if finding it silly, but Jerry is far away from being the gen.pub. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the press." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's one of the bits that will appeal to a 'paleoconservative'. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<71538944-33C9-4C0E-A650-D47DEB4F3725@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-04T23:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 01/06/2012, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, one has to allow for his ideas about things like women's suffrage..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I happen to think women's (or men's, if it were the case) suffrage isn't a huge question in practical terms, for the simple reason that women do not constitute a social stratum. NB I say practical terms but I mean policy determination rather than election results. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FCD60DC.20207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-06-05T01:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<74B7F973-D3CB-41A5-A099-44606546F914@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must be a closet paleo!\n\nBut he also took shots at the landlords. I'm not sure where that fits in \nor parallels modern politics ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2012 7:43 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 01/06/2012, ?s 20:50, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/1/2012 3:48 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think you have to be a catholic or a 'paleoconservative' in order not to be offended by Chesterton, unless you are very well read (quality more than quantity), in which case you may choose to enjoy his genius past anything else.\n\nMaybe Wolfe can afford to be soft spoken because Chesterton took upon himself the dirty work that needed done. The man was a Maccabee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting. What should I be offended by? His politics, or his religion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Orthodoxy_ reads like a scathing attack on most non-catholic philosophy. I've met few priests as sage as Father Brown and none so outspoken. _The man who was thursday_ seems to unrelentingly mock socialists. Jerry can see the wit in it even if finding it silly, but Jerry is far away from being the gen.pub." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I especially appreciate his disdain for imperialism and its expression in the press." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's one of the bits that will appeal to a 'paleoconservative'.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-06-05T03:05:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "<4FCD60DC.20207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut he also took shots at the landlords. I'm not sure where that fits in or\nparallels modern politics ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "GKC was a \"distributist,\" a philosophy that has no real parallel in\nmodern politics. There's a decent Wikipedia article on it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FCE006D.6090408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-06-05T12:49:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chesterton'a \"lunar virescence\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, that's come up before. Distributism does seem both progressive \nand nostalgic at the same time: the opposite of \"creative destruction.\" \nWe could use more of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2012 11:05 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But he also took shots at the landlords. I'm not sure where that fits in or\nparallels modern politics ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GKC was a \"distributist,\" a philosophy that has no real parallel in\nmodern politics. There's a decent Wikipedia article on it." } ] } ] }