{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6280", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6280, "subject": "The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "messages": 27, "voices": 11, "first": "2012-08-01T09:56:11+00:00", "last": "2012-08-06T22:01:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T09:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://indigestmag.com/blog/?p=17070#.UBj7-01lS25\n\nI... highly recommend *The* *Book of the New Sun* if you’re looking for a\nsci-fi/fantasy read to satisfy your appetite until the next book of\nMartin’s *A* *Song of Ice and Fire* is released. Wolfe’s work rates higher\non the literary scale, but falls just short of Martin’s where\nfully-realized characters are concerned. And where Martin’s books are\ndriven by action and intrigue, Wolfe’s are driven by unraveling a complex\nnarrative arc with incredibly tricksy literary elements." } ] }, { "message_id": "<501922BE.2050905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-08-01T12:36:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 5:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nAnd where Martin’s books are driven by action and intrigue, Wolfe’s \nare driven by unraveling a complex narrative arc with incredibly \ntricksy literary elements." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a fine observation in 25 words or fewer, although my initial \nimpulse was to object to it as an oversimplification.\n\nBNS has plenty of action and intrigue, but it is in a way a set piece. \nIf there is a \"game\" in BNS it is between characters barely, if at all, \non the stage. Severian appears to make decisions but even on the surface \nis overtly constrained in his choices in the same way any fairy tale \nhero is. This is one of the broad authorial winks Wolfe throws our way, \nand on catching it the reader begins to sense the many literary strata \nthat hold Severian as fast as any fossil. From there, the reader \neventually proceeds to full-blown detective mode.\n\nBut there is a another way Wolfe handles action differently. Not only \ndoes Severian always surprise us, but he downplays his actions as though \nthey come naturally to him---which of course they do, by definition. \nRaised in the Citadel as he was, action and intrigue are /literally \n/nothing to him. Where other narrators might directly remind us or boast \nof this background, Severian reminds us indirectly (e.g., how others \nperceive him) and by sudden, expert displays of violence. His utterly \nblase, matter-of-fact view of such things almost makes him Methuselan.\n\nAs for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I think \nthere is anything /but /a surface level to them?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T12:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<501922BE.2050905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quick clarification for those dropping in: I, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen,\nDID NOT WRITE THAT REVIEW. I merely copied in its closing sentences.\n\nBasically, I'm pleased as punch that Wolfe's New Sun is being thought of\nand engaged during and related to the Game of Thrones hype. I, of course,\ntend to think it sounds kind of hilariously absurd to say the Ice and Fire\nstuff excels New Sun in just about any way. Then again, I just started\nreading Stephen King for the first time in my life recently (I tend to\navoid mega-bestseller stuff) and whilst he does not have the literary merit\nof folks like Wolfe, I was utterly shocked to discover that his\nstorytelling skill can be pretty freaking unbelievable and some of the\ncharacterisations are indeed pretty powerful - and he's really overall got\na unique voice by which he kind of manages to hold his own in the literary\nscheme of things. I mention this because it made me wonder if Martin might\nhave some of these qualities (I've never read any). I tend to doubt it for\nsome reason. I'm open to it, but I suspect David's intuition that Martin's\nstuff is all surface with no depth is more likely.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 8/1/2012 5:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where Martin’s books are driven by action and intrigue, Wolfe’s are\ndriven by unraveling a complex narrative arc with incredibly tricksy\nliterary elements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a fine observation in 25 words or fewer, although my initial\nimpulse was to object to it as an oversimplification.\n\nBNS has plenty of action and intrigue, but it is in a way a set piece. If\nthere is a \"game\" in BNS it is between characters barely, if at all, on the\nstage. Severian appears to make decisions but even on the surface is\novertly constrained in his choices in the same way any fairy tale hero is.\nThis is one of the broad authorial winks Wolfe throws our way, and on\ncatching it the reader begins to sense the many literary strata that hold\nSeverian as fast as any fossil. From there, the reader eventually proceeds\nto full-blown detective mode.\n\nBut there is a another way Wolfe handles action differently. Not only does\nSeverian always surprise us, but he downplays his actions as though they\ncome naturally to him---which of course they do, by definition. Raised in\nthe Citadel as he was, action and intrigue are /literally /nothing to him.\nWhere other narrators might directly remind us or boast of this background,\nSeverian reminds us indirectly (e.g., how others perceive him) and by\nsudden, expert displays of violence. His utterly blase, matter-of-fact view\nof such things almost makes him Methuselan.\n\nAs for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I think\nthere is anything /but /a surface level to them?\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T12:55:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that part of the reason ASOIAF gives off the impression of having\nsuch \"fully-realized\" characters is that the books are so darn long, and\nyou spend a lot of time with them, in terms of pages. That said, though,\nthe characters aren't always well-written, and in the latest book some of\nthem do things and think things that don't really mesh with previous books.\n Martin definitely is a cut above a lot of the genre fantasy that has come\nout in the last 20 years, but he is no Wolfe.\n\nAnyways, Wolfe seems to be getting more and more exposure, it seems. If\nyou ever head to Reddit or Goodreads, for example, you will notice. Two\nyears ago his name came up once in a blue moon, but now if someone asks for\nscience fiction recommendations, or brings up a discussion of unreliable\nnarrators, it isn't uncommon for a number of people to bring Wolfe and *New\nSun* into the conversation. He is generally well-known and liked in a\nnumber of forums now, so these sorts of comparisons aren't uncommon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nQuick clarification for those dropping in: I, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen,\nDID NOT WRITE THAT REVIEW. I merely copied in its closing sentences.\n\nBasically, I'm pleased as punch that Wolfe's New Sun is being thought of\nand engaged during and related to the Game of Thrones hype. I, of course,\ntend to think it sounds kind of hilariously absurd to say the Ice and Fire\nstuff excels New Sun in just about any way. Then again, I just started\nreading Stephen King for the first time in my life recently (I tend to\navoid mega-bestseller stuff) and whilst he does not have the literary merit\nof folks like Wolfe, I was utterly shocked to discover that his\nstorytelling skill can be pretty freaking unbelievable and some of the\ncharacterisations are indeed pretty powerful - and he's really overall got\na unique voice by which he kind of manages to hold his own in the literary\nscheme of things. I mention this because it made me wonder if Martin might\nhave some of these qualities (I've never read any). I tend to doubt it for\nsome reason. I'm open to it, but I suspect David's intuition that Martin's\nstuff is all surface with no depth is more likely.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2012 5:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And where Martin’s books are driven by action and intrigue, Wolfe’s are\ndriven by unraveling a complex narrative arc with incredibly tricksy\nliterary elements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a fine observation in 25 words or fewer, although my initial\nimpulse was to object to it as an oversimplification.\n\nBNS has plenty of action and intrigue, but it is in a way a set piece. If\nthere is a \"game\" in BNS it is between characters barely, if at all, on the\nstage. Severian appears to make decisions but even on the surface is\novertly constrained in his choices in the same way any fairy tale hero is.\nThis is one of the broad authorial winks Wolfe throws our way, and on\ncatching it the reader begins to sense the many literary strata that hold\nSeverian as fast as any fossil. From there, the reader eventually proceeds\nto full-blown detective mode.\n\nBut there is a another way Wolfe handles action differently. Not only\ndoes Severian always surprise us, but he downplays his actions as though\nthey come naturally to him---which of course they do, by definition. Raised\nin the Citadel as he was, action and intrigue are /literally /nothing to\nhim. Where other narrators might directly remind us or boast of this\nbackground, Severian reminds us indirectly (e.g., how others perceive him)\nand by sudden, expert displays of violence. His utterly blase,\nmatter-of-fact view of such things almost makes him Methuselan.\n\nAs for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I think\nthere is anything /but /a surface level to them?\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50192826.7020800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-08-01T12:59:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agree on King. /Pet Sematary /gets dumped on a lot, but it has some \ntruly great passages and scenes that turn your bowels to water. That \nbaby . . . no one else would take it that far!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 8:48 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nQuick clarification for those dropping in: I, Daniel Otto Jack \nPetersen, DID NOT WRITE THAT REVIEW. I merely copied in its closing \nsentences.\n\nBasically, I'm pleased as punch that Wolfe's New Sun is being thought \nof and engaged during and related to the Game of Thrones hype. I, of \ncourse, tend to think it sounds kind of hilariously absurd to say the \nIce and Fire stuff excels New Sun in just about any way. Then again, I \njust started reading Stephen King for the first time in my life \nrecently (I tend to avoid mega-bestseller stuff) and whilst he does \nnot have the literary merit of folks like Wolfe, I was utterly shocked \nto discover that his storytelling skill can be pretty freaking \nunbelievable and some of the characterisations are indeed pretty \npowerful - and he's really overall got a unique voice by which he kind \nof manages to hold his own in the literary scheme of things. I mention \nthis because it made me wonder if Martin might have some of these \nqualities (I've never read any). I tend to doubt it for some reason. \nI'm open to it, but I suspect David's intuition that Martin's stuff is \nall surface with no depth is more likely.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n On 8/1/2012 5:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n And where Martin’s books are driven by action and intrigue,\n Wolfe’s are driven by unraveling a complex narrative arc with\n incredibly tricksy literary elements.\n\n\n That's a fine observation in 25 words or fewer, although my\n initial impulse was to object to it as an oversimplification.\n\n BNS has plenty of action and intrigue, but it is in a way a set\n piece. If there is a \"game\" in BNS it is between characters\n barely, if at all, on the stage. Severian appears to make\n decisions but even on the surface is overtly constrained in his\n choices in the same way any fairy tale hero is. This is one of the\n broad authorial winks Wolfe throws our way, and on catching it the\n reader begins to sense the many literary strata that hold Severian\n as fast as any fossil. From there, the reader eventually proceeds\n to full-blown detective mode.\n\n But there is a another way Wolfe handles action differently. Not\n only does Severian always surprise us, but he downplays his\n actions as though they come naturally to him---which of course\n they do, by definition. Raised in the Citadel as he was, action\n and intrigue are /literally /nothing to him. Where other narrators\n might directly remind us or boast of this background, Severian\n reminds us indirectly (e.g., how others perceive him) and by\n sudden, expert displays of violence. His utterly blase,\n matter-of-fact view of such things almost makes him Methuselan.\n\n As for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I\n think there is anything /but /a surface level to them?\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1343831425.70197.YahooMailClassic@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T14:30:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<50192826.7020800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n?????\n\n? ???As for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I\n? ???think there is anything /but /a surface level to them?\n? ???_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are no profound truths/mysteries about the nature of reality, but Martin does several things subtly, including the family tree of some characters. The \"out of character\" bastard son of the most upright guy in the books, Ned Stark, is hinted at actually being his sister's son in some passages, who ran off with a guy from the old dynasty who was killed by a usurper years before the action of the book starts. So that bastard is probably a legit heir but nobody suspects it and he is just shunted around to the northern wall, and the noble Stark fellow lets his wife kind of hate his \"bastard son\".\n\nAlso, some of the sexuality is just kind of hinted at in the books, like Renly and his wife never consummating and a close hero-worship kind of relationship with his head knight, but in the tv show that turns into a straight up gay sex scene with hs knight.\n\nHe's not Wolfe but the first three books are good reads for something that is popular (how condescending does that sound? Shakespeare is and was popular, but public taste has gotten a bit more susceptible to criticism the last few centuries).\n\nSo ... hidden family trees, hiints about relatioships - that is a bit like Wolfe. Deep thoughts, theosophical musings, arcane vocabulary, multiple meanings to names - nah, not quite on Wolfe's level." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50196B36.6020007@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T17:45:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<501922BE.2050905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 7:36 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAs for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I think\nthere is anything /but /a surface level to them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Martin has some literary chops, but I am more familiar with his earlier \nshort stories, like the Hugo and Neb winning \"Sandkings\" :\n\nhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/36218355/1979-Sandkings" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T18:15:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343831425.70197.YahooMailClassic@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The main issue I see with discussing how much is \"hidden\" in ASOIAF is that\nthe series isn't finished yet. Marc mentions the \"fan theory\" about one\ncharacter's (Jon Snow) parentage. Martin has said he will reveal who that\ncharacter's parents are by series' end. Much of the discussion, like with\nmost in-progress series, seems to be focused on what will happen in future\nbooks.\n\nThe big difference I see between the two is that Wolfe leaves so much out,\nallowing readers to almost complete the storytelling process via their\ninterpretations and theories. ASOIAF rewards close reading in a different\nway, though similar in that it hinges on \"throwaway\" lines or details. Many\nof the minor characters seem to have their own arcs and motives and\nwhat-have-you, which a casual reader (focusing on the major characters)\nwon't notice. The westeros forum isn't what it was five years ago, but\nthere's still good stuff (between the what-will-happen-next posts) to that\neffect.\n\nMartin, like Wolfe, is also a master of dialogue voice.\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T18:19:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T18:36:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A Song of Ice and Fire is a series I have read in full, and love for reasons entirely separate from Wolfe's. I think I love GRRM's work for its overt narrative slickness. I felt in the first couple of novels that each chapter was written as its own mini story, and while Martin jokes that he was writing something that could never be filmed as a reaction to his case of Hollywooditis, the book was and is a cinematic experience made for the small screen.\n\nWhere ASoIaF has more in common with Wheel of Time (IMO!) or some other big fantasy tome, I think Wolfe's work strikes a different anvil all together. There is an air of importance to the prose and world building that separates it. There is depth and meaning pining to be discovered and unearthed. There is another story (or two, or three) not even written on the page, but inferred through deduction and immersion. All of this comes naturally to Mr. Wolfe, so it never feels showy offy in a Meryl Streep sort of way (Read: \"Look at me, I am the best actress ever to grace the presence of the silver screen, watch me act, in all of my greatness, and take notes!\"). Gag.\n\nI know Martin comes from a similar school of writers as Wolfe, from a similar time, and that he has written some more high-minded stuff in the short story and standalone novel space, but when you speak Gene's name, you are talking about Borge and Chesterton and Dickens and Melville, and Joyce.\n\nWith George (at least with ASoIaF) you are saying, he's a much better version of Jordan, and Goodkind, and so on.\n\nMy two cents.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2012, at 2:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T18:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot to add that George R. R. Martin happens to be a big fan of *The\nBook of the New Sun,* and this blurb of his appears on the Fantasy\nMasterworks publication of *Shadow and Claw *:\n\n\"The books are chests full of wonders; full of images like jewels, of words\na reader can get drunk on, of people and incidents that will linger long in\nmemory. For years and years to come, I think, we'll see inferior imitations\nof Wolfe's masterpiece decked out with the phrase \"'In the tradition of\nWolfe\", for that is the tribute all great originals are inevitably paid.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nA Song of Ice and Fire is a series I have read in full, and love for\nreasons entirely separate from Wolfe's. I think I love GRRM's work for its\novert narrative slickness. I felt in the first couple of novels that each\nchapter was written as its own mini story, and while Martin jokes that he\nwas writing something that could never be filmed as a reaction to his case\nof Hollywooditis, the book was and is a cinematic experience made for the\nsmall screen.\n\nWhere ASoIaF has more in common with Wheel of Time (IMO!) or some other\nbig fantasy tome, I think Wolfe's work strikes a different anvil all\ntogether. There is an air of importance to the prose and world building\nthat separates it. There is depth and meaning pining to be discovered and\nunearthed. There is another story (or two, or three) not even written on\nthe page, but inferred through deduction and immersion. All of this comes\nnaturally to Mr. Wolfe, so it never feels showy offy in a Meryl Streep sort\nof way (Read: \"Look at me, I am the best actress ever to grace the presence\nof the silver screen, watch me act, in all of my greatness, and take\nnotes!\"). Gag.\n\nI know Martin comes from a similar school of writers as Wolfe, from a\nsimilar time, and that he has written some more high-minded stuff in the\nshort story and standalone novel space, but when you speak Gene's name, you\nare talking about Borge and Chesterton and Dickens and Melville, and Joyce.\n\nWith George (at least with ASoIaF) you are saying, he's a much better\nversion of Jordan, and Goodkind, and so on.\n\nMy two cents.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Aug 1, 2012, at 2:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1343855098.55956.YahooMailNeo@web84514.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-08-01T21:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Watching the series, I keep mentally trying to place the technology at around 1200 to 1400 AD. But then I remember that the Wall has been there for 8000 years, yet the Starks never invaded the Holy Land to learn the proper arts of siege warfare from the Arabs. So I just have to make myself stop analyzing it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire\n\nI'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T21:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343855098.55956.YahooMailNeo@web84514.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone SAYS the wall is 8000 years old. There's a bit in one of the\nbooks where Sam talks about historical claims nor adding up. Actually,\nthat same scene might be in two of the books.\n\nThe Romans had decent siege technology that would have predated the\nArab-Chinese technology; isn't Martin's wall a fantasied up version of\nHadrian's Wall?\n\nNate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:04 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nWatching the series, I keep mentally trying to place the technology at\naround 1200 to 1400 AD. But then I remember that the Wall has been there for\n8000 years, yet the Starks never invaded the Holy Land to learn the proper\narts of siege warfare from the Arabs. So I just have to make myself stop\nanalyzing it.\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire\n\nI'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5019BD57.8000507@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T23:35:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 1:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sort of: \nhttp://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/07/08/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-spills-the-secrets-of-a-dance-with-dragons/\n\n\n\"You once said that fantasy needs to reflect reality. Can you explain \nwhat you meant by that?\n\nWell, I think all fiction needs to reflect reality. Fiction is lies, \nwe’re writing about people who never existed and events that never \nhappened when we write fiction, whether its science fiction or fantasy \nor western mystery stories or so-called literary stories. All those \nthings are essentially untrue. But it has to have a truth at the core of \nit. You’re still writing about people, you’re writing about the human \ncondition. I often quote Faulkner, who said in his speech after winning \nthe Nobel Prize that 'the human heart in conflict with itself' is the \nonly thing worth writing about. And I’ve always agreed with that. It’s \ntrue no matter what genre you’re writing in, even if there are dragons \nin it or it’s about a private detective or a western gunslinger, it’s \nstill ultimately about the human heart in conflict with itself or it’s \nnot worth reading.\"\n\nApparently, the history and other fantastic parts are implausibly \ngrandeurous intentionally because they exist only to serve the realistic \ncharacters and plot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5019BE3B.6060607@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-01T23:39:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343855098.55956.YahooMailNeo@web84514.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 4:04 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nWatching the series, I keep mentally trying to place the technology at\naround 1200 to 1400 AD. But then I remember that the Wall has been there\nfor 8000 years, yet the Starks never invaded the Holy Land to learn the\nproper arts of siege warfare from the Arabs. So I just have to make\nmyself stop analyzing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's probably the best way you can go about it, given GRRM's statement \nquoted in my other post. The character detail is realistic, the setting \ndetail is subject to benign neglect." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20120802003215.WSBU18532.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2012-08-02T00:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343855098.55956.YahooMailNeo@web84514.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire\n\nI'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\nbe THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\nASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\nof society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\nfantasize about.\n\nThe Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n\"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually \nmedieval at all.\n\nJBJordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T01:13:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<20120802003215.WSBU18532.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually\nmedieval at all.\n\n\nI assume you mean the society for creative anachronism? There are\nreligions in ASOIAF. There's one that seems to have a lot of the \"high\nchurch\" (RC or CoE) pomp and ceremony of Christianity, in which\nworshippers pray to one of a small pantheon for intercession (similar\nto the gods from Bujold's Chalion books) and another that seems to be\nmodelled on Zoroastrianism and incorporates the millenarianism of\nmedieval Christianity--right down to the return/rebirth of a\nhistorical/mythical savior.\n\nIf you were to specifically and explicitly use the Catholic Church in\na high fantasy cum faux history story, where the history, places, etc.\nare all different... maybe that could work, but people bring their\nfeelings about the RC to the story, whereas abstracting what you feel\nare the essentials of the medieval church (prayers for intercession or\nmillenarian doomsday prophecies) and then introducing a\ndifferent-but-similar institution that keeps those essentials in place\nremoves some of the prejudices and associations people might have\nabout a real world institution.\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1343871827.5748.YahooMailNeo@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T01:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<5019BD57.8000507@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 1:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n \"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\n medieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sort of: \nhttp://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/07/08/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-spills-the-secrets-of-a-dance-with-dragons/\n\n\n\"You once said that fantasy needs to reflect reality. Can you explain what \nyou meant by that?\n\nWell, I think all fiction needs to reflect reality. Fiction is lies, we’re \nwriting about people who never existed and events that never happened when we \nwrite fiction, whether its science fiction or fantasy or western mystery stories \nor so-called literary stories. All those things are essentially untrue. But it \nhas to have a truth at the core of it. You’re still writing about people, you’re \nwriting about the human condition. I often quote Faulkner, who said in his \nspeech after winning the Nobel Prize that 'the human heart in conflict with \nitself' is the only thing worth writing about. And I’ve always agreed with \nthat. It’s true no matter what genre you’re writing in, even if there are \ndragons in it or it’s about a private detective or a western gunslinger, it’s \nstill ultimately about the human heart in conflict with itself or it’s not worth \nreading.\"\n\nApparently, the history and other fantastic parts are implausibly grandeurous \nintentionally because they exist only to serve the realistic characters and \nplot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see in that quotation that he says why the series has fantastic parts, much less what their \"only\" purpose is. ?I also don't think \"a truth at the core of it\" is necessarily the same as \"realistic characters and?plot.\"\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1343872135.32562.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T01:48:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343871827.5748.YahooMailNeo@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From: Jeff Wilson \n On 8/1/2012 1:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "? The Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n? \"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes \na\n? medieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Sort of: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/07/08/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-spills-the-secrets-of-a-dance-with-dragons/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"You once said that fantasy needs to reflect reality. Can you explain \nwhat \n you meant by that?\n\n Well, I think all fiction needs to reflect reality. Fiction is lies, we’re \n writing about people who never existed and events that never happened when \nwe \n write fiction, whether its science fiction or fantasy or western mystery \nstories \n or so-called literary stories. All those things are essentially untrue. But \nit \n has to have a truth at the core of it. You’re still writing about people, \nyou’re \n writing about the human condition. I often quote Faulkner, who said in his \n speech after winning the Nobel Prize that 'the human heart in conflict \nwith \n itself' is the only thing worth writing about. And I’ve always agreed \nwith \n that. It’s true no matter what genre you’re writing in, even if there are \n dragons in it or it’s about a private detective or a western gunslinger, \nit’s \n still ultimately about the human heart in conflict with itself or it’s not \nworth reading.\"\n\n Apparently, the history and other fantastic parts are implausibly \ngrandeurous \n intentionally because they exist only to serve the realistic characters and \n plot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see in that quotation that he says why the series has fantastic \nparts, much less what their \"only\" purpose is. ?I also don't think \n\"a truth at the core of it\" is necessarily the same as \"realistic \ncharacters and?plot.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even \"reflect reality\" isn't necessarily the same as \"realistic characters and plot\", I'd say, especially not the \"plot\" part, though it's closer than the phrase I mentioned above. ?Sorry I didn't notice that before.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5019DD69.1060607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-08-02T01:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<20120802003215.WSBU18532.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2012 8:32 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\n\n\n From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:19 PM\n Subject: Re: (urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and\n Fire\n\n I'll also speak out in favor of Martin -- he wrote what I consider to\n be THE best rock'n'roll novel of all time, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. The\n ASOIAF books, to my mind, are brutally honest depictions of the kind\n of society that generic fantasy readers & writers like to, well,\n fantasize about.\n\n The Society for Creative Anachronism likes to say that it recreates\n \"the middle ages as they should have been.\" Martin describes a\n medieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually \nmedieval at all.\n\nJBJordan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point---Westeros is plainly far more pagan that our world. \nI'd guess that there are reflections of elements of myths that went into \nChristianity (Osiris' rebirth and so on), but no Christ. He seems to try \nto keep it vague, and yet offers a remarkable amount of detail." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T02:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<20120802003215.WSBU18532.eastrmfepo203.cox.net@eastrmimpo305.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 02/08/2012, ?s 01:32, \"James B. Jordan\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Martin describes a\nmedieval fantasy world as it really would have been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually medieval at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather I'm afraid that medieval without church is like Apple without Jobs. It's not that it wouldn't be the same thing, it's that it wouldn't exist at all. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5019FC90.9060902@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T04:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343871827.5748.YahooMailNeo@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2012 8:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apparently, the history and other fantastic parts are implausibly grandeurous\nintentionally because they exist only to serve the realistic characters and\nplot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see in that quotation that he says why the series has fantastic parts, much less what their \"only\" purpose is. I also don't think \"a truth at the core of it\" is necessarily the same as \"realistic characters and plot.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's more at the link and in other publicity he's done about the \nbooks and show.\n\nThe characters need realistic personalities to reflect the concerns of \nthose human hearts rather than be caricatures with no internal \nmotivations: the antagonists aren't that way because they are EEEEVIL, \nthey antagonize becasue of differing loyalties, resentment, greed, etc.\n\nBut the other stuff, the lie parts like the fictional fantasy setting, \n*are* there for the human story's purposes, and you can say The Wall's \nbeen there for 8000 years for the same reason the story of the Burning \nBuddha has him being on fire for 72,000 years." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<501A073A.9040201@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-02T04:51:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 8:13 PM, nate jarvis wrote:\nWell, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually\nmedieval at all.\n\n\nI assume you mean the society for creative anachronism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a few religious personas, but they do not seem terribly \npopular. Also, I don't know of a kingdom or other outfit that grants \nreligious rank." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20120802123415.TZFZ18243.eastrmfepo101.cox.net@eastrmimpo110.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2012-08-02T12:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:13 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:\nWell, but without the Church and Christianity. So it's not actually\nmedieval at all.\n\n\nI assume you mean the society for creative anachronism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I meant Song of Ice and Fire.\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<501BB6F2.5050206@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-03T11:33:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<1343831425.70197.YahooMailClassic@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 9:30 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell, there are no profound truths/mysteries about the nature of\nreality, but Martin does several things subtly, including the family\ntree of some characters. The \"out of character\" bastard son of the most\nupright guy in the books, Ned Stark, is hinted at actually being his\nsister's son in some passages, who ran off with a guy from the old\ndynasty who was killed by a usurper years before the action of the book\nstarts. So that bastard is probably a legit heir but nobody suspects it\nand he is just shunted around to the northern wall, and the noble Stark\nfellow lets his wife kind of hate his \"bastard son\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's Catelyn's decision to blame the child. If Jon Snow truly is a get \nof the old dynasty, Ned saved his life and probably prevented a civil \nwar given how vigorously all the other possible heirs were hunted down.\n\nBut I digress." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<501BC96D.9000705@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-08-03T12:51:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 4:43 PM, nate jarvis wrote:\nEveryone SAYS the wall is 8000 years old. There's a bit in one of the\nbooks where Sam talks about historical claims nor adding up. Actually,\nthat same scene might be in two of the books.\n\nThe Romans had decent siege technology that would have predated the\nArab-Chinese technology; isn't Martin's wall a fantasied up version of\nHadrian's Wall?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite possibly. The HBO adaptation has intentionally assigned regional \nBritish accents (not always successfully) to characters based on their \nanalagous places of origin, with Londoner near King's Landing and Scots \nfor some wildlings in the mountains far to the north." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50203ECD.3000407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-08-06T22:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun vs. A Song of Ice and Fire", "in_reply_to": "<50196B36.6020007@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great story. Thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2012 1:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/1/2012 7:36 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for Martin's books---does anyone more familiar with them than I think\nthere is anything /but /a surface level to them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Martin has some literary chops, but I am more familiar with his \nearlier short stories, like the Hugo and Neb winning \"Sandkings\" :\n\nhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/36218355/1979-Sandkings" } ] } ] }