{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6303", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6303, "subject": "Claw = Fang?", "messages": 58, "voices": 14, "first": "2012-11-02T00:04:46+00:00", "last": "2012-11-28T22:39:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact bears some resemblance to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's fang. Which naturally suggests the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden etc ... as far as I can see this doesn't really fit into the theology/symbology of the BotNS but it's curious if you think about it - has anyone else pursued this line?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: the badger" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact bears some \nresemblance\n to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's fang. Which \nnaturally suggests\n the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden etc ... as far as \nI can see\nthis doesn't really fit into the theology/symbology of the BotNS but it's \ncurious\nif you think about it - has anyone else pursued this line?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting thought. I haven't heard of it.\n\nOf course the Claw is really a thorn. I don't know that that has any \nsignificance.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5093129A.4040902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thorns might be considered to resemble claws more than fangs. But \nSeverian's blood the Claw sheds is perhaps more important than the Claw \nitself.\n\nIt seems like a stretch, but \"nature red in tooth and claw\" could \nconnect it to a fang. But why do so?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2012 8:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: the badger" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact bears some \nresemblance\n to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's fang. Which \nnaturally suggests\n the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden etc ... as \nfar as I can see\nthis doesn't really fit into the theology/symbology of the BotNS but \nit's curious\nif you think about it - has anyone else pursued this line?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting thought. I haven't heard of it.\n\nOf course the Claw is really a thorn. I don't know that that has any \nsignificance.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:27:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<5093129A.4040902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not just a reference to the Crown of Thorns?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:23 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThorns might be considered to resemble claws more than fangs. But\nSeverian's blood the Claw sheds is perhaps more important than the Claw\nitself.\n\nIt seems like a stretch, but \"nature red in tooth and claw\" could connect\nit to a fang. But why do so?\n\n\nOn 11/1/2012 8:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: the badger\n\n It occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact bears some\nresemblance\n to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's fang. Which\nnaturally suggests\n the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden etc ... as far\nas I can see\nthis doesn't really fit into the theology/symbology of the BotNS but\nit's curious\nif you think about it - has anyone else pursued this line?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting thought. I haven't heard of it.\n\nOf course the Claw is really a thorn. I don't know that that has any\nsignificance.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Considering all of this, is there is any tie-in with the Claw/thorn and Rosicrucianism (see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_Cross)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50931691.4070304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-02T00:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2012 8:27 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nIt's not just a reference to the Crown of Thorns?\n\nOn Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:23 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Thorns might be considered to resemble claws more than fangs. But\n Severian's blood the Claw sheds is perhaps more important than the\n Claw itself.\n\n It seems like a stretch, but \"nature red in tooth and claw\" could\n connect it to a fang. But why do so?\n\n\n On 11/1/2012 8:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n From: the badger\n\n It occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact\n bears some resemblance\n to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's\n fang. Which naturally suggests\n the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden\n etc ... as far as I can see\n this doesn't really fit into the theology/symbology of the\n BotNS but it's curious\n if you think about it - has anyone else pursued this line?\n\n\n Interesting thought. I haven't heard of it.\n\n Of course the Claw is really a thorn. I don't know that that\n has any significance.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<509473AF.7030400@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T01:30:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2012 7:04 PM, the badger wrote:\nIt occurred to me that the Claw as a physical artifact bears some resemblance to a fang - I'm thinking specifically of a serpent's fang. Which naturally suggests the depiction of Satan as a serpent, the Garden of Eden etc" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would a fang suggest a serpent more than any other fanged animal?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T01:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<509473AF.7030400@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's the tie-in with the book of Genesis." } ] }, { "message_id": "<509486D1.3080408@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T02:52:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2012 8:48 PM, the badger wrote:\nI think it's the tie-in with the book of Genesis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you're responding to my question about fanged animals, what is the \nclaw/thorn's tie-in with the book of Genesis?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T03:56:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<509486D1.3080408@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agree. I favor thorn as crown of thorns if we are going biblical. Not buying the fang parallel personally.\n\n...ryan\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/2/2012 8:48 PM, the badger wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's the tie-in with the book of Genesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're responding to my question about fanged animals, what is the claw/thorn's tie-in with the book of Genesis?\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-21T23:36:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remembering, with Severian, that symbols create knowledge and human\nstories, rather then the other way around, here are some things I thought\nof when reading your question.\n\nIn the Eden story four entities are cursed, the serpent, the woman, the\nman, and the ground/dust.\n\nThe serpent's curse is that he will crawl on the ground and eat dust and\nthat it's seed will be enemies of the woman's seed. The woman's\ndescendants will smash the head of serpents because serpents bite their\nheels.\n\nThe woman's curse is that whatever physical pleasure she may have in\nprocreation, only she will bear the incredible pain and risk of it. Her\nhusband will only experience the pleasure of it, while he rules over her.\n\nThe man's curse is identical with the curse of the ground. The dust is\ncursed to bring forth thorns, and the man is cursed to extract his (and\nthe woman's) food painfully from thorn filled fields. For all the days\nof his life, until he returns to that cursed and thorn filled dust from\nwhich he came.\n\n\nThe dust of the ground is cursed with serpents fangs and thorns. And\nthe dust of ground is the origin and destiny of humanity.\n\nThis is in the book of Genesis. In the book of Exodus the Israelites are\nplagued with serpents and as a remedy Moses makes an image of a serpent and\nlifts it on a staff for all to see and be cured of the venomous bites. So\nthe symbol of the curse here becomes also the symbol of its cure.\n\nSo, Christian symbolism builds on this by making by making the complete\nhumiliation of Jesus, which culminates in a crown of thorns, as he is\nlifted up on the cross, the very cure for the curse of humanity. And\ncertainly the crucifixion is the Christian fulfillment of the curse where\nthe seed of the woman's heel is bitten but he smashes the head of the\nserpent. But again, this very curse is also the cure.\n\nOne other Biblical mention, Paul says that he is given a thorn in the\nflesh (remember the flesh is the dust of the ground), and this thorn is a\nmessenger of Satan, (the serpent), and when he asks God to remove it, God\ntells him it is actually there for God's purposes, because the weakness\nthis thorn brings is also the source of his strength. So again, the\ncurse is the cure.\n\nIt seems impossible to me to see any use of a thorn as a symbol without\nseeing an allusion also to the fangs of the serpent." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-22T00:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. The only thing I could add is that a serpent's fang carries deadly poison, while the Claw heals.\n\nThe funny thing is that before I read the books, when I only knew the titles and general outline, I assumed the Claw was a stylized cross, because a cross can resemble the talon of a bird - that's what I thought the Claw was.\n\nDate: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:36:44 -0800\nFrom: whburth at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Claw = Fang?\n\nRemembering, with Severian, that symbols create knowledge and human stories, rather then the other way around, here are some things I thought of when reading your question.\nIn the Eden story four entities are cursed, the serpent, the woman, the man, and the ground/dust.\n\nThe serpent's curse is that he will crawl on the ground and eat dust and that it's seed will be enemies of the woman's seed. The woman's descendants will smash the head of serpents because serpents bite their heels. \n\nThe woman's curse is that whatever physical pleasure she may have in procreation, only she will bear the incredible pain and risk of it. Her husband will only experience the pleasure of it, while he rules over her.\n\nThe man's curse is identical with the curse of the ground. The dust is cursed to bring forth thorns, and the man is cursed to extract his (and the woman's) food painfully from thorn filled fields. For all the days of his life, until he returns to that cursed and thorn filled dust from which he came. \n\n\nThe dust of the ground is cursed with serpents fangs and thorns. And the dust of ground is the origin and destiny of humanity.\nThis is in the book of Genesis. In the book of Exodus the Israelites are plagued with serpents and as a remedy Moses makes an image of a serpent and lifts it on a staff for all to see and be cured of the venomous bites. So the symbol of the curse here becomes also the symbol of its cure.\n\nSo, Christian symbolism builds on this by making by making the complete humiliation of Jesus, which culminates in a crown of thorns, as he is lifted up on the cross, the very cure for the curse of humanity. And certainly the crucifixion is the Christian fulfillment of the curse where the seed of the woman's heel is bitten but he smashes the head of the serpent. But again, this very curse is also the cure.\n\nOne other Biblical mention, Paul says that he is given a thorn in the flesh (remember the flesh is the dust of the ground), and this thorn is a messenger of Satan, (the serpent), and when he asks God to remove it, God tells him it is actually there for God's purposes, because the weakness this thorn brings is also the source of his strength. So again, the curse is the cure. \n\nIt seems impossible to me to see any use of a thorn as a symbol without seeing an allusion also to the fangs of the serpent. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<50AE27D5.8090105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-22T13:25:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the \nClaw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are \ntherefore a link to the Claw.\n\nIt occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by \nspeculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this \nis not supported at all. Serpents, of course, are one animal that can't \nhave a claw. But lizards do (and dragons). There seems to be a \ncomplementarity among these symbols that only Genesis can unlock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2012 6:36 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:\nRemembering, with Severian, that symbols create knowledge and human \nstories, rather then the other way around, here are some things I \nthought of when reading your question.\n\nIn the Eden story four entities are cursed, the serpent, the woman, \nthe man, and the ground/dust.\n\nThe serpent's curse is that he will crawl on the ground and eat dust \nand that it's seed will be enemies of the woman's seed. The woman's \ndescendants will smash the head of serpents because serpents bite \ntheir heels.\n\nThe woman's curse is that whatever physical pleasure she may have in \nprocreation, only she will bear the incredible pain and risk of it. \n Her husband will only experience the pleasure of it, while he rules \nover her.\n\nThe man's curse is identical with the curse of the ground. The dust is \ncursed to bring forth thorns, and the man is cursed to extract his \n(and the woman's) food painfully from thorn filled fields. For all \nthe days of his life, until he returns to that cursed and thorn \nfilled dust from which he came.\n\n\nThe dust of the ground is cursed with serpents fangs and thorns. \nAnd the dust of ground is the origin and destiny of humanity.\n\nThis is in the book of Genesis. In the book of Exodus \nthe Israelites are plagued with serpents and as a remedy Moses makes \nan image of a serpent and lifts it on a staff for all to see and be \ncured of the venomous bites. So the symbol of the curse here becomes \nalso the symbol of its cure.\n\nSo, Christian symbolism builds on this by making by making the \ncomplete humiliation of Jesus, which culminates in a crown of thorns, \n as he is lifted up on the cross, the very cure for the curse of \nhumanity. And certainly the crucifixion is the \nChristian fulfillment of the curse where the seed of the woman's heel \nis bitten but he smashes the head of the serpent. But again, this \nvery curse is also the cure.\n\nOne other Biblical mention, Paul says that he is given a thorn in the \nflesh (remember the flesh is the dust of the ground), and this thorn \nis a messenger of Satan, (the serpent), and when he asks God to \nremove it, God tells him it is actually there for God's purposes, \n because the weakness this thorn brings is also the source of his \nstrength. So again, the curse is the cure.\n\nIt seems impossible to me to see any use of a thorn as a symbol \nwithout seeing an allusion also to the fangs of the serpent.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1353617353.99081.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-22T20:49:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50AE27D5.8090105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the Claw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are therefore a link to the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by speculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is not supported at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the easy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50AE9F06.4040008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-22T21:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<1353617353.99081.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2012 3:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nVery well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the Claw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are therefore a link to the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by speculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is not supported at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the easy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, of course. \"Perhaps too pat\" indeed. It all but instructs us to \nlook elsewhere, doesn't it? Away from the pagan and toward Genesis, maybe." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T00:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50AE9F06.4040008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a conversation a few years ago with a theologian who knew the original\nlanguages of the Bible, I gather that Satan may have been in the angelic\norder of a seraph and a seraph is in the form of a winged serpent (dragon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Thus, the serpent cursed to crawl on his belly is a de-winged dragon. But\nit doesn't sound like their are claws to speak of on these flying-serpent\n'dragons'. But Satan is referred to as a dragon in the book of Revelation\nin the New Testament and that depicition sounds to me somehow more like the\ntraditional dragon we usually think of - i.e. with legs... and claws. So\nperhaps by this route you have your Genesis-based dragon claw.\n\nBut like Jesus lifted up just as the bronze serpent was lifted up in the\ndesert to heal the Israelites, and like Jesus wore a crown of thorns just\nas man is cursed to work the thorny ground for food, so too Jesus could be\nsaid to have suffered the dragon's claw on the cross in order to free\nmankind from the grip of that very claw.\n\nOne more thing: lions have claws and both Satan and Jesus are likened to a\nlion in the New Testament. The Claw, then, seems to draw consistently on\nimages that are biblically employed for both curse/evil/satan and\nblessing/good/messiah. And I think the Claw's symbolism mingles these two\nopposed uses to simultaneously represent the ironic defeat of the former\nand the subversive triumph of the latter... (I think this ties in well\nwith elements of the theology of the Outsider also.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 11/22/2012 3:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nVery well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the\nClaw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are\ntherefore a link to the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by\nspeculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is\nnot supported at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the\neasy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, of course. \"Perhaps too pat\" indeed. It all but instructs us to look\nelsewhere, doesn't it? Away from the pagan and toward Genesis, maybe.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T01:30:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for my ignorance on this topic, but is there any evidence that the Claw is of extraterrestrial origin - either an artifact, natural object or part of an animal? Or could it have been manufactured on Urth during an earlier and more technologically advanced era?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bailey Swartz", "address": "bsswartz at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T04:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you believe Severian, it came from a bush. It may have been alien like\nthe Avern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 22, 2012 6:30 PM, \"the badger\" wrote:\nSorry for my ignorance on this topic, but is there any evidence that the\nClaw is of extraterrestrial origin - either an artifact, natural object or\npart of an animal? Or could it have been manufactured on Urth during an\nearlier and more technologically advanced era?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bailey Swartz", "address": "bsswartz at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T04:51:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<1353617353.99081.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly refuted, that is written in the context of a speculative scholar,\njust the same as how we speculate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 22, 2012 1:49 PM, \"Jerry Friedman\" wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the Claw,\nand fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are therefore\na link to the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by\nspeculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is\nnot supported at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the easy\nassociation of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T06:30:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was also thinking of which Hebrew letter might visually resemble a claw ... maybe Gimel? This letter seems to be associated with reward and punishment ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T07:04:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have to keep Wolfe's penchant for irony in mind as well. Of course it\nis too easy and pat, he tells us with a wink and a nod, because he's\nflat out giving us this one. When he created the claw as part of the\nnarrative he was thinking precisely of the eagle of Jove.\n\nOf course when someone uses irony as much as Wolfe does, it's always\ndebatable whether or not that is what he is doing. When I re-read him,\n I always find more irony. For example a few days ago I was reading\nparts of Shadow again and came to Severian's mention of how that long\nago women were members of the torturers guild as well but Ymar the Almost\nJust noticed how cruel they were and how often they exceeded the proscribed\npunishments and decreed that they could be members no more. Immediately\nI understood what I hadn't before, that this was irony, and in fact we are\nto understand not only that the opposite was true, i.e. that women were\nnot cruel enough and were too lenient, but that this traditional lie is\ntold so as to serve multiple functions, one of which is to help keep the\nbrothers unattached to women." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Bailey Swartz wrote:\nHardly refuted, that is written in the context of a speculative scholar,\njust the same as how we speculate.\nOn Nov 22, 2012 1:49 PM, \"Jerry Friedman\" \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Very well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of the\nClaw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns, they are\ntherefore a link to the Claw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by\nspeculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is\nnot supported at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the\neasy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T16:20:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The animal vs. plant orgin of the Claw is left open for most of the story. In the end (of Citadel)\nSeverian could have found a claw from an animal carcass on the beach but instead, Wolfe comes out in \nfavor of a plant origin. (perhaps Marc Aramini will appreciate this?)\n\nIgnoring anthropology, an early dichotomy of plant products vs. animal products is found in the story of \nCain and Abel, with (the paternal) jewish God favoring Abel's animal sacrifice over Cain's grain. An apt \nparable for ancient shepherdic Hebrews, being mindful that the ancient enemies of the Hebrews were more \nagricultural.\n\nGetting back to anthropology, we can understand the historic association of males and male gods with \nmeat while women and female gods are more associated with plant products. The Viron naming convention is \nbased on this, of course.\n\nThere is a nod or two toward vegetarianism in BotNS. Though Severian is not a vegetarian, he seems to \nthink becoming one would be a noble goal. (I suspect this is how Gene Wolfe feels also, though I may be\nprojecting since that is how I feel about vegetarianism; I admire it but haven't achieved it.)\n\nVegetarianism is associated with various pagan religious beliefs, like Wicca. It is an association with\nthe female-centric tendencies of these pagan religions. Not that these religions exclude males but they\ntend to be biased toward the female as a balance against the highly patrifocal Judeo-Christian-Muslim\nshepherdic-based religions and their global dominance.\n\nI disagree that the message in Wolfe's books is to dismiss paganism as false religion in favor of more \nChristian forms of belief. As Wolfe says in the James Jordan interview, he, himself, feels that gods\nof paganism were real. (when I say \"pagan\" I am excluding satanic beliefs which Wolfe does recognize\nas evil; moreover satanic pagan religions are usually male-centered and more likely to invoke blood\nand death, rather than sex and fertility).\n\nI think Wolfe sees the relationship of pagan gods to the Judeo-Christian beliefs as similar to what \nwe see in the transition from Long Sun to Short Sun. If the gods can be envisioned as cards then a\nchanging world will necessitate a shuffling and redealing of the cards in new combinations. Thus blind \nTartaros and piggish Phaea become combined in the godling named Pig. Pas and Scylla etc. are similiarly \nshuffled and recombined.\n\nI think Wolfe sees something similar in the progression of gods (on Urth and Earth). As we have \ndiscussed previously on this board, there are pagan trinities which pre-sage the Christian Trinity.\nThe confused father-son relationship in the Dionysus-> Zeus/Jove->Dionysus->Jehovah progression is \nto me similar to the Typhon/Pas->Silk->Horn->Outsider progression.\n\nWith regard to an alien origin of the Claw, I actually lean in favor of it, in a certain sense. The Claw \nwas created by the thorn being drenched in Severian's blood. And I find many hints that Severian and his\npowers and special (god-like) qualities derive from a partial-alien (demi-god) ancestry. This in parallel\nto the Greek heroes like Heracles and Oedipus, whose stories Severian's tends to mimic.\n\nHow that blood-drenched thorn becomes encased in sapphire is not revealed but I think we can safely \nattribute that to the Pelerines. As the witches represent the wild, Wiccan pagan side of things, the\nPelerines are pretty Christian and nun-like. And the ancient Christians were quite into making preserved\nrelics from the remnants of holy guys. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<50AFC114.2060507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-23T18:31:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's good context for this interpretation of the Claw. And the below \nsnippet is perhaps especially suggestive, because it involves or invokes \nthe combination of plant and animal into something higher." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2012 11:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe Claw was created by the thorn being drenched in Severian's blood." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50AFC2AE.5030603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-23T18:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's meant along the lines of a classic cultic double meaning: \none esoteric (Jove's eagle) and one esoteric (the clawed serpent). These \ntwo meanings balance perfectly, since one is associated with a \ncivic/daylight religion and the other with a mysterious/gnostic, even \nsatanic one.\n\nRejecting one points to the other but also back to itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2012 11:51 PM, Bailey Swartz wrote:\n\nHardly refuted, that is written in the context of a speculative \nscholar, just the same as how we speculate.\n\nOn Nov 22, 2012 1:49 PM, \"Jerry Friedman\" > wrote:\n\n From: David Stockhoff >\n >\n Very well thought out! If the thorn is the key to the meaning of\n the Claw, and fangs do seem to occupy a space adjacent to thorns,\n they are therefore a link to the Claw.\n >\n >It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal,\n even by speculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of\n prey, but this is not supported at all.\n ...\n\n In fact it's rejected.\n\n \"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to\n make the easy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is\n perhaps too pat.)\"\n\n CotC, Appendix\n\n Jerry Friedman\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-24T04:18:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a minor point but I noticed towards the beginning of Shadow, during the Feast of Holy Katherine, at the climax of the ceremony the torturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn into roses (it's all an effect created by colored paper, as Severian notes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2012, at 11:20 AM, \"Lee Berman\" wrote:\n\nThe animal vs. plant orgin of the Claw is left open for most of the story. In the end (of Citadel)\nSeverian could have found a claw from an animal carcass on the beach but instead, Wolfe comes out in \nfavor of a plant origin. (perhaps Marc Aramini will appreciate this?)\n\nIgnoring anthropology, an early dichotomy of plant products vs. animal products is found in the story of \nCain and Abel, with (the paternal) jewish God favoring Abel's animal sacrifice over Cain's grain. An apt \nparable for ancient shepherdic Hebrews, being mindful that the ancient enemies of the Hebrews were more \nagricultural.\n\nGetting back to anthropology, we can understand the historic association of males and male gods with \nmeat while women and female gods are more associated with plant products. The Viron naming convention is \nbased on this, of course.\n\nThere is a nod or two toward vegetarianism in BotNS. Though Severian is not a vegetarian, he seems to \nthink becoming one would be a noble goal. (I suspect this is how Gene Wolfe feels also, though I may be\nprojecting since that is how I feel about vegetarianism; I admire it but haven't achieved it.)\n\nVegetarianism is associated with various pagan religious beliefs, like Wicca. It is an association with\nthe female-centric tendencies of these pagan religions. Not that these religions exclude males but they\ntend to be biased toward the female as a balance against the highly patrifocal Judeo-Christian-Muslim\nshepherdic-based religions and their global dominance.\n\nI disagree that the message in Wolfe's books is to dismiss paganism as false religion in favor of more \nChristian forms of belief. As Wolfe says in the James Jordan interview, he, himself, feels that gods\nof paganism were real. (when I say \"pagan\" I am excluding satanic beliefs which Wolfe does recognize\nas evil; moreover satanic pagan religions are usually male-centered and more likely to invoke blood\nand death, rather than sex and fertility).\n\nI think Wolfe sees the relationship of pagan gods to the Judeo-Christian beliefs as similar to what \nwe see in the transition from Long Sun to Short Sun. If the gods can be envisioned as cards then a\nchanging world will necessitate a shuffling and redealing of the cards in new combinations. Thus blind \nTartaros and piggish Phaea become combined in the godling named Pig. Pas and Scylla etc. are similiarly \nshuffled and recombined.\n\nI think Wolfe sees something similar in the progression of gods (on Urth and Earth). As we have \ndiscussed previously on this board, there are pagan trinities which pre-sage the Christian Trinity.\nThe confused father-son relationship in the Dionysus-> Zeus/Jove->Dionysus->Jehovah progression is \nto me similar to the Typhon/Pas->Silk->Horn->Outsider progression.\n\nWith regard to an alien origin of the Claw, I actually lean in favor of it, in a certain sense. The Claw \nwas created by the thorn being drenched in Severian's blood. And I find many hints that Severian and his\npowers and special (god-like) qualities derive from a partial-alien (demi-god) ancestry. This in parallel\nto the Greek heroes like Heracles and Oedipus, whose stories Severian's tends to mimic.\n\nHow that blood-drenched thorn becomes encased in sapphire is not revealed but I think we can safely \nattribute that to the Pelerines. As the witches represent the wild, Wiccan pagan side of things, the\nPelerines are pretty Christian and nun-like. And the ancient Christians were quite into making preserved\nrelics from the remnants of holy guys. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1353789097.94448.YahooMailNeo@web124502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-24T20:31:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 22, 2012 1:49 PM, \"Jerry Friedman\" wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It occurs to me that the Claw is not associated with any animal, even by speculation. One thinks of a bird, especially a bird of prey, but this is not supported at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nIn fact it's rejected.\n\n\"(Because the Conciliator is given a Claw, one is tempted to make the easy association of the eagle of Jove with the sun; it is perhaps too pat.)\"\n\nCotC, Appendix" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Bailey Swartz \n\nHardly refuted, that is written in the context of a speculative scholar, just the same as how we speculate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, rejected but not refuted. ?Even bringing something up with a negative is bringing it up. ?\n\n\nI know the eagle of Jove only from the myth of Ganymede, a variation--maybe a homoerotically distorted variation--on the theme of divine salvation.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B16774.8090807@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-25T00:33:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2012 10:18 PM, the badger wrote:\nThis is a minor point but I noticed towards the beginning of Shadow, during the Feast of Holy Katherine, at the climax of the ceremony the torturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn into roses (it's all an effect created by colored paper, as Severian notes)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good show locating this textev, Badger!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B2E0EE.9020405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-26T03:24:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B16774.8090807@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/24/2012 7:33 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/23/2012 10:18 PM, the badger wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a minor point but I noticed towards the beginning of Shadow, \nduring the Feast of Holy Katherine, at the climax of the ceremony the \ntorturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn into \nroses (it's all an effect created by colored paper, as Severian notes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good show locating this textev, Badger!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to wonder how far to take this.\n\nIf a rose is one of Severian's symbols, and a serpent is not, then what \ndoes that mean? Is the thorn of the field at least an honest adversary, \nencountered while toiling, and the rose the best of all the thorns? Was \nTyphon a serpent?\n\nIs this opposition played out again by the Neighbors and the inhumi?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B338EC.50208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T09:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B2E0EE.9020405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2012 9:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 11/24/2012 7:33 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/23/2012 10:18 PM, the badger wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is a minor point but I noticed towards the beginning of Shadow,\nduring the Feast of Holy Katherine, at the climax of the ceremony the\ntorturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn into\nroses (it's all an effect created by colored paper, as Severian notes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good show locating this textev, Badger!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to wonder how far to take this.\n\nIf a rose is one of Severian's symbols, and a serpent is not, then what\ndoes that mean? Is the thorn of the field at least an honest adversary,\nencountered while toiling, and the rose the best of all the thorns? Was\nTyphon a serpent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon absolutely plays the serpent's part when he shows Sev all the \ncountries of Urth and offers him dominion over them in return for his \noath of fealty." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B369B2.9040705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-26T13:08:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B338EC.50208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon was certainly THE Serpent, but was he A serpent?\n\nIs Severian something like the thorn of the field raised up to the \ndegree that Typhon/Satan is a raised-up serpent of the field? i.e., the \nbetter counterpart to him? Are the two of them hammer and anvil in \nshaping a more morally advanced humanity?\n\nI'm just spitballing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 4:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/25/2012 9:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/24/2012 7:33 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/23/2012 10:18 PM, the badger wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is a minor point but I noticed towards the beginning of Shadow,\nduring the Feast of Holy Katherine, at the climax of the ceremony the\ntorturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn into\nroses (it's all an effect created by colored paper, as Severian \nnotes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Good show locating this textev, Badger!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have to wonder how far to take this.\n\nIf a rose is one of Severian's symbols, and a serpent is not, then what\ndoes that mean? Is the thorn of the field at least an honest adversary,\nencountered while toiling, and the rose the best of all the thorns? Was\nTyphon a serpent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon absolutely plays the serpent's part when he shows Sev all the \ncountries of Urth and offers him dominion over them in return for his \noath of fealty." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T13:18:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B369B2.9040705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Yes, rejected but not refuted. Even bringing something up with a negative is bringing it up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Completely agreed. (e.g. Severian's unprompted denial of pedophilia is the only reason we might think it happened.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the badger: at the climax of the ceremony the torturer's wheel appears to be covered with serpents which turn \ninto roses" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: If a rose is one of Severian's symbols, and a serpent is not, then what \ndoes that mean? Was Typhon a serpent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the direction of my interpretation also. Typhon was the worst sort of ruler and Severian will become\nthe best sort (willing to ban torture, anyway).\n\nThe Green Man is a similar amalgam of animal turned plant (and perhaps man and woman), foretelling of a better future. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T15:51:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Typhon was certainly THE Serpent, but was he A serpent?\nIs Severian something like the thorn of the field raised up to the \ndegree that Typhon/Satan is a raised-up serpent of the field? i.e., the \nbetter counterpart to him? Are the two of them hammer and anvil in \nshaping a more morally advanced humanity?\nI'm just spitballing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spitballing may be what we are limited to in a story which jumbles Theseus with the\nMonitor and Merrimac and Mowgli with Romulus and Remus and Squanto.\n\nAs I see it, mythological Typhon was a potentially world-destroying mandragon, partially \ncomposed of snakes. His wife was Echidna, a cave-dwelling snake woman whose myth is in a \ndirect line to the Roman Cumaean Sybil who is known as one of the earliest harbingers of \nJesus Christ. This all gets jumbled into BotNS, tossing Alexander and others into the mix\nas well.\n\nFWIW, in Long Sun, Quetzal the inhumi, tells Remora (fishy stowaway, also an inhumi?) this story:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A-man and Wo-man like rabbits in a garden. The--what do you call them?...The cobra persuaded Wo-man \nto eat fruit from his tree, miraculous fruit whose taste conferred wisdom...It is all in the Writings. \nOr nearly all. A god called Ah Lah barred Wo-man and her husband from the garden...We seem to have lost \nsight of Ah Lah, by the way. I can't recall a single sacrifice to him. No one ever asks why the cobra \nwanted Wo-man to eat his fruit...In order that she would climb this tree, Patera. The man likewise. \nTheir story's not over because they haven't climbed down.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, in this Eden story we have a plant (tree) and serpent as featured players. Somehow related to the \nClaw of the Conciliator? This story certainly presages Green, a planet of trees and parasitic reptilian\nbeings. What might Wolfe's cryptic note to Marc, \"GREEN is Urth\" mean in an Edenic context?\n\nDr. Talos' play also features the Eden story and the serpent appears to be represented by a fanged, busty, \nred-haired demoness named Jahi. Then in Short Sun we have an inhuma named Jahlee. Somehow it all has\nto be related but perhaps we were never meant to connect it all in a coherent, structured fashion.\nPerhaps, as David suggests, intuitive mythological spitballing is all Wolfe intended us to grasp from \nthese connections. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T20:30:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that you mention Quetzal.\nThis reminds me of Quetzacoatl, the Aztec flying serpent god.\nwho was some derivation of the central myth of the aztec which involved an\neagle with a serpent in its talents and is on the Mexican flag. We've\nalready been told my Wolfe to view the claw as something like the talons of\nthe eagle of jove, so he clearly links talons and fangs in his\nmythologies.\nAlso, in the Bible, Seraphim are flying fiery serpents and angelic beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Typhon was certainly THE Serpent, but was he A serpent?\nIs Severian something like the thorn of the field raised up to the\ndegree that Typhon/Satan is a raised-up serpent of the field? i.e., the\nbetter counterpart to him? Are the two of them hammer and anvil in\nshaping a more morally advanced humanity?\nI'm just spitballing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spitballing may be what we are limited to in a story which jumbles Theseus\nwith the\nMonitor and Merrimac and Mowgli with Romulus and Remus and Squanto.\n\nAs I see it, mythological Typhon was a potentially world-destroying\nmandragon, partially\ncomposed of snakes. His wife was Echidna, a cave-dwelling snake woman\nwhose myth is in a\ndirect line to the Roman Cumaean Sybil who is known as one of the earliest\nharbingers of\nJesus Christ. This all gets jumbled into BotNS, tossing Alexander and\nothers into the mix\nas well.\n\nFWIW, in Long Sun, Quetzal the inhumi, tells Remora (fishy stowaway, also\nan inhumi?) this story:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A-man and Wo-man like rabbits in a garden. The--what do you call\nthem?...The cobra persuaded Wo-man\nto eat fruit from his tree, miraculous fruit whose taste conferred\nwisdom...It is all in the Writings.\nOr nearly all. A god called Ah Lah barred Wo-man and her husband from the\ngarden...We seem to have lost\nsight of Ah Lah, by the way. I can't recall a single sacrifice to him. No\none ever asks why the cobra\nwanted Wo-man to eat his fruit...In order that she would climb this tree,\nPatera. The man likewise.\nTheir story's not over because they haven't climbed down.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, in this Eden story we have a plant (tree) and serpent as featured\nplayers. Somehow related to the\nClaw of the Conciliator? This story certainly presages Green, a planet of\ntrees and parasitic reptilian\nbeings. What might Wolfe's cryptic note to Marc, \"GREEN is Urth\" mean in\nan Edenic context?\n\nDr. Talos' play also features the Eden story and the serpent appears to be\nrepresented by a fanged, busty,\nred-haired demoness named Jahi. Then in Short Sun we have an inhuma named\nJahlee. Somehow it all has\nto be related but perhaps we were never meant to connect it all in a\ncoherent, structured fashion.\nPerhaps, as David suggests, intuitive mythological spitballing is all\nWolfe intended us to grasp from\nthese connections.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B3D2F8.7080208@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T20:37:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 2:30 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:\nNow that you mention Quetzal.\nThis reminds me of Quetzacoatl, the Aztec flying serpent god.\nwho was some derivation of the central myth of the aztec which involved\nan eagle with a serpent in its talents and is on the Mexican flag.\nWe've already been told my Wolfe to view the claw as something like the\ntalons of the eagle of jove, so he clearly links talons and fangs in\nhis mythologies.\nAlso, in the Bible, Seraphim are flying fiery serpents and angelic beings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think seraphim are affirmatively both angelic and serpentine in \nthe canonical books." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T21:08:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B3D2F8.7080208@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think seraphim are affirmatively both angelic and serpentine in the\ncanonical books." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\n\n\nFor what it's worth:\n\n 1) serpent, fiery serpent\n 1a) poisonous serpent (fiery from burning effect of poison)\n 2) seraph, seraphim\n 2a) majestic beings with 6 wings, human hands or voices in attendance\n upon God\n?Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)\n\n>From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent);\nspecifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper\ncolor): fiery (serpent), seraph.\n?Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)\n\nhttp://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/8314.html\n\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 2:30 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now that you mention Quetzal.\nThis reminds me of Quetzacoatl, the Aztec flying serpent god.\nwho was some derivation of the central myth of the aztec which involved\nan eagle with a serpent in its talents and is on the Mexican flag.\nWe've already been told my Wolfe to view the claw as something like the\ntalons of the eagle of jove, so he clearly links talons and fangs in\nhis mythologies.\nAlso, in the Bible, Seraphim are flying fiery serpents and angelic beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think seraphim are affirmatively both angelic and serpentine in\nthe canonical books.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B3E177.1090105@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T21:39:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 3:08 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent);\nspecifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper\ncolor): fiery (serpent), seraph." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but when the word is used for multi-winged angels \"burning ones\" is \nmore literal, because one tests a prophet with a hot coal, IIRC." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T21:40:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B3E177.1090105@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked to put a hot coal\ninto his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord for him to speak.\nThat's about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/26/2012 3:08 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent);\nspecifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper\ncolor): fiery (serpent), seraph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but when the word is used for multi-winged angels \"burning ones\" is\nmore literal, because one tests a prophet with a hot coal, IIRC.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T22:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B3E177.1090105@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point is that seraph means serpent and there's nothing in the Biblical\ntext that I'm aware of that tries to distance that snake-like image from\nthe angelic beings themselves. As I said before, one trained theologian\nknowledgeable of the original languages that I spoke too said he pictured\nthem as winged dragons of a sort. Hence, Satan being a more or less\nde-winged dragon in Revelation. (And this making all serpentine/clawed\nimages in Wolfe simultaneously resonant of both the angelic and demonic,\nthe divine and the diabolical - appropriately, as both Jesus and Satan are\nimaged as a lion in the New Testament.) The Solar Cycle's soteriology\nreflects the N.T. in seeing salvation as a divine incarnation into the very\nsymbols of evil (originally good in themselves) in order to redeem them\nback to their right place. E.g. 'claw' is a thing of tearing and death in\na fallen world but becomes, in the Conciliator, a thing of healing.\n\nObserve one of my favourite theological passages in BotNS:\n\n'What I was going to tell you was that the existence of that relic seems to\nhave given some people the idea that the Conciliator used claws as weapons.\n I have sometimes doubted that he existed; but if such a person ever lived,\nI'm sure that he used his weapons largely against himself. Do you\nunderstand what I am saying?' (p. 173 in the Fantasy Masterworks version\nof Sword and Citadel)\n\nThis is why the gem's touch earlier in the book can be described as the\n'kiss of the claw'. In the paragraph following the one above, the contrast\nis given: some use 'claws of steel' as a 'charm against the coming of the\nNew Sun'. Such people 'must want to hold back the coming of the New Sun so\nthey can take his place and perhaps usurp his powers.' As with many such\ntheologically revealing passages, it is cut short mid-sentence and not\nreturned to.\n\nAt any rate, the former quote is the messianic sense of the Claw\n(self-sacrifice) and the latter is the satanic or antichrist sense of the\nClaw (violent tyranny). Biblically, both may be related to\nserpents/dragons/lions. There is no inherently evil beast in the biblical\necosphere, but rather they symbol forth both good and evil according to\ncontext.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/26/2012 3:08 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent);\nspecifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper\ncolor): fiery (serpent), seraph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but when the word is used for multi-winged angels \"burning ones\" is\nmore literal, because one tests a prophet with a hot coal, IIRC.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T22:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I started this thread I was thinking about the pairing of a rose thorn and a serpent's fang ... clearly a lion's fang must also be added to the cluster.\n\n \n\n\n\nDate: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:12:03 +0000\nFrom: danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Claw = Fang?\n\nMy point is that seraph means serpent and there's nothing in the Biblical text that I'm aware of that tries to distance that snake-like image from the angelic beings themselves. As I said before, one trained theologian knowledgeable of the original languages that I spoke too said he pictured them as winged dragons of a sort. Hence, Satan being a more or less de-winged dragon in Revelation. (And this making all serpentine/clawed images in Wolfe simultaneously resonant of both the angelic and demonic, the divine and the diabolical - appropriately, as both Jesus and Satan are imaged as a lion in the New Testament.) The Solar Cycle's soteriology reflects the N.T. in seeing salvation as a divine incarnation into the very symbols of evil (originally good in themselves) in order to redeem them back to their right place. E.g. 'claw' is a thing of tearing and death in a fallen world but becomes, in the Conciliator, a thing of healing. \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B406C8.4080304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T00:18:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting in this context that a venomous fang may be used to produce \nits own antidote (by injection into horses).\n\nThe origin of the Rod of Asclepius was discussed here some time ago, and \nit has nothing to do with snakes. But still ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 5:12 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nE.g. 'claw' is a thing of tearing and death in a fallen world but \nbecomes, in the Conciliator, a thing of healing. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B4455B.40108@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T04:45:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked to put a hot coal\ninto his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord for him to speak.\nThat's about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his \nhand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched \nmy mouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken \naway and your sin atoned for.' \"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T13:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B4455B.40108@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: And this making all serpentine/clawed\nimages in Wolfe simultaneously resonant of both the angelic and demonic,\nthe divine and the diabolical - appropriately, as both Jesus and Satan are\nimaged as a lion in the New Testament.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This brings to mind Severian's revelation on Tzadkiel's ship that the\nunquestionably angelic Barbatus and Famulimus have a watery, \"kelpie\"-\nlike origin, connecting them to the giant sea beings back on Urth, one\nof whom has the demonic name Arioch.\n\nAngelic Tzadkiel also displays this connection with his/her self-described\nassociation with a sponge and the ability to pinch off smaller, human-shaped\navatars in similar fashion to Scylla, The Mother and (likely) Abaia. \n\nGood and evil, the divine hammer and tongs which forge us, yes? Still, between\nsuch awesomely superhuman shaping tools, I'm not sure I see where room for \nfree will exists, except as a self-POV. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T13:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "<50B406C8.4080304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nInteresting in this context that a venomous fang may be used to produce\nits own antidote (by injection into horses)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm also reminded that Jesus said he would be lifted up on the cross just\nas Moses lifted up the bronze *serpent* in the desert, so that all who\nlooked toward it would be healed of their fiery snake bite. So, as it\nturns out, Jesus became a seraph on the cross (so to speak), taking the\nenemy's own form in order to redeem all things (including that serpentine\nform itself - the prophet Isaiah says a little child will be able to reach\ninto the cobra's hole in the new creation and not be harmed - i.e. snakes\npersist even in the resurrected renewed creation of the Eschaton).\n\nVery Wolfean. (That is, Wolfe's work is deeply imbued with the Bible's\nsense of soteriological irony and paradox.)\n\nThe Claw, then, is perhaps a thorn, which can perhaps resonate with a\nserpent's fang (I forget just why this was proposed), all of which imagery\nmay (biblically) symbolise initially the fall and subsequently salvation.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:18 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nInteresting in this context that a venomous fang may be used to produce\nits own antidote (by injection into horses).\n\nThe origin of the Rod of Asclepius was discussed here some time ago, and\nit has nothing to do with snakes. But still ...\n\nOn 11/26/2012 5:12 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "E.g. 'claw' is a thing of tearing and death in a fallen world but\nbecomes, in the Conciliator, a thing of healing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T14:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his \nhand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched \nmy mouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken \naway and your sin atoned for.' \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Moses was a baby in Pharaoh's court, he was offered the choice of a gold bowl\nvs. a bowl of hot coals to see if he was a danger to the throne. An angel guided\nhis hand to the hot coals and he ended up burning his tongue and receiving a life-long\nspeech impediment as a result.\n\nSeems like there must be a connection to these stories. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T14:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nGood and evil, the divine hammer and tongs which forge us, yes? Still,\nbetween\nsuch awesomely superhuman shaping tools, I'm not sure I see where room for\nfree will exists, except as a self-POV.\n\n\nIf I believed we were between those hammer and tongs, I'm not sure I'd\nbelieve in the existence of freewill either, Lee. But I don't believe that\nnor do I think it's evinced in Wolfe. My point in bringing up the fact\nthat both the New Testament and Wolfe often use a single image to\nsymbolise both good and evil (e.g. lion), as indicated by context, was\nemphatically *not* to to aver that either or both thereby proclaim some\nkind of dualism. Far from it.\n\nBoth hammer and tongs (if we must think of it that way) would only be good,\nfor only good has enough substance to be such hard shaping tools - whereas\nevil is always parasitic, a tending towards nothingness (I think that\nconception's fairly Augustinian and Lewisian and it's surely not too crazy\na stretch to think Wolfe may hold to something similar). So the evil that\nis symbolised by claws, fangs, thorns in Wolfe would be all that tends\ntoward the dissolution and disintegration of the characters, their\nsocieties, and their environments - in all three Books. The good\nsymbolised by these is always those forces of compassion, truth, justice\nand so on that tend toward healing, reversal, renewal of all that bends\ntoward nothingness. (Think about the major narrative arcs of each of the\nBooks for a moment and consider whether that doesn't well encapsulate the\nmoral universe of the tales.)\n\nThe freedom of creatures to bend with good's healing integration or,\nconversely (and perversely), to bend against that good in the direction of\nevil's disintegrating non-creative force seems plausible (and urgent) to me\nin Wolfe. His characters are not just inert objects being shaped by\nopposing forces. They are *imago Dei *creatures of inherent goodness\n(think of the way Silk views even the 'worst') being called to 'go with the\nflow' of that goodness rather than flowing in the opposite direction.\n That's libertarian freewill to me, not some pretend 'freedom' that must be\nwhat it is by eternal decree (hammer and tongs style) even though it can\nsubjectively feel as if it's making it's own choices because that makes\nlife psychologically bearable.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: And this making all serpentine/clawed\nimages in Wolfe simultaneously resonant of both the angelic and demonic,\nthe divine and the diabolical - appropriately, as both Jesus and Satan are\nimaged as a lion in the New Testament.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This brings to mind Severian's revelation on Tzadkiel's ship that the\nunquestionably angelic Barbatus and Famulimus have a watery, \"kelpie\"-\nlike origin, connecting them to the giant sea beings back on Urth, one\nof whom has the demonic name Arioch.\n\nAngelic Tzadkiel also displays this connection with his/her self-described\nassociation with a sponge and the ability to pinch off smaller,\nhuman-shaped\navatars in similar fashion to Scylla, The Mother and (likely) Abaia.\n\nGood and evil, the divine hammer and tongs which forge us, yes? Still,\nbetween\nsuch awesomely superhuman shaping tools, I'm not sure I see where room for\nfree will exists, except as a self-POV.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B4CC6D.3070101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T14:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B4455B.40108@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked to put a hot coal\ninto his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord for him to speak.\nThat's about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in \nhis hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he \ntouched my mouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your \nguilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.' \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following description \nof a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience in Sam Harris' \nresponse to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and found some parts to be \nquite familiar (note the date):\n\nUnder the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian labyrinth,\na palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs that\nflood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\nsense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\nThere is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\nwonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\nnuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\nhuman history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\nhowling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the stars, is\nthe Aeon.\n\nThe Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\nwith colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\ntykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\nthe children destined to be father to the man? One has the\nimpression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies beyond the\nportals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\nsynesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the Other as\nourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\nmagic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be told, an\nepiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that which\nis stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\nunscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\nfifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer the gift\nof new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\ncolored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\ntoys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The sense of\nemotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\nrevealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\nanother in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\nThis is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\nlonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis wailing\nthrough the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\nof our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\nthe presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\ndimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\nimagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\nfearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore and to\nreport on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\nCan anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused me to \npost this?\n\nIf nothing else, this description suggests that mystical visions \nexperienced by different people are more the same than they are \ndifferent. This commonality might even explain much of the deep \nattraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle and Severian's account \nin particular." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T15:58:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: The freedom of creatures to bend with good's healing integration or,\nconversely (and perversely), to bend against that good in the direction of\nevil's disintegrating non-creative force seems plausible (and urgent) to me\nin Wolfe. His characters are not just inert objects being shaped by\nopposing forces. They are *imago Dei *creatures of inherent goodness\n(think of the way Silk views even the 'worst') being called to 'go with the\nflow' of that goodness rather than flowing in the opposite direction.\nThat's libertarian freewill to me, not some pretend 'freedom' that must be\nwhat it is by eternal decree (hammer and tongs style) even though it can\nsubjectively feel as if it's making it's own choices because that makes\nlife psychologically bearable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eloquently stated, as always Daniel. Trying to reinterpret your words in my own\ncoarse fashion, I wonder if we can stretch the analogy to suggest that as metal\nbeing blacksmithed, we do have the choice to either be molded as intended by an \nintelligent and benignly purposed Creator or to reject the molding and accept\nexistence as an errant, excised scrap of purposeless metal, perhaps useful only as\nrecycled material for some future project. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T16:16:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nTrying to reinterpret your words in my own\ncoarse fashion, I wonder if we can stretch the analogy to suggest that as\nmetal\nbeing blacksmithed, we do have the choice to either be molded as intended\nby an\nintelligent and benignly purposed Creator or to reject the molding and\naccept\nexistence as an errant, excised scrap of purposeless metal, perhaps useful\nonly as\nrecycled material for some future project.\n\n\nYeah, I could probably go for something like that. That ability to choose\nis what makes all analogies break down. We're made of *living*, organic,\ndeliberating, volitional 'metal' - the fires and anvils and hammers are\ncertainly the limits of our freedom - but we play a part, however small.\n In my opinion, at least (and I think Wolfe's fiction largely evinces this\n- though not without complication and density).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen: The freedom of creatures to bend with good's healing\nintegration or,\nconversely (and perversely), to bend against that good in the direction of\nevil's disintegrating non-creative force seems plausible (and urgent) to\nme\nin Wolfe. His characters are not just inert objects being shaped by\nopposing forces. They are *imago Dei *creatures of inherent goodness\n(think of the way Silk views even the 'worst') being called to 'go with\nthe\nflow' of that goodness rather than flowing in the opposite direction.\nThat's libertarian freewill to me, not some pretend 'freedom' that must\nbe\nwhat it is by eternal decree (hammer and tongs style) even though it can\nsubjectively feel as if it's making it's own choices because that makes\nlife psychologically bearable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eloquently stated, as always Daniel. Trying to reinterpret your words in\nmy own\ncoarse fashion, I wonder if we can stretch the analogy to suggest that as\nmetal\nbeing blacksmithed, we do have the choice to either be molded as intended\nby an\nintelligent and benignly purposed Creator or to reject the molding and\naccept\nexistence as an errant, excised scrap of purposeless metal, perhaps useful\nonly as\nrecycled material for some future project.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B56367.9000407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T01:05:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B4CC6D.3070101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\nThe phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\nSELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n!!!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked to put a hot \ncoal\ninto his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord for him to speak.\nThat's about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in \nhis hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he \ntouched my mouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your \nguilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.' \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following description \nof a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience in Sam Harris' \nresponse to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and found some parts to be \nquite familiar (note the date):\n\nUnder the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian labyrinth,\na palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs that\nflood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\nsense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\nThere is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\nwonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\nnuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\nhuman history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\nhowling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the stars, is\nthe Aeon.\n\nThe Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\nwith colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\ntykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\nthe children destined to be father to the man? One has the\nimpression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies beyond the\nportals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\nsynesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the Other as\nourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\nmagic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be told, an\nepiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that which\nis stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\nunscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\nfifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer the gift\nof new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\ncolored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\ntoys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The sense of\nemotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\nrevealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\nanother in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\nThis is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\nlonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis wailing\nthrough the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\nof our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\nthe presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\ndimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\nimagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\nfearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore and to\nreport on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\nCan anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused me to \npost this?\n\nIf nothing else, this description suggests that mystical visions \nexperienced by different people are more the same than they are \ndifferent. This commonality might even explain much of the deep \nattraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle and Severian's account \nin particular.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-11-28T01:44:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B56367.9000407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\nThe phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\nSELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n!!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even more:\n\nhttp://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/terence-mckenna/\n\n\"Terence McKenna was the Magellan of psychedelic head space, and \nhumanity's first ambassador to the hyperdimensional machine elves of the \nEschaton.\"\n\nOne wonders what kind of trashy literature he had been reading." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B56E51.2000307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T01:52:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/2012 8:44 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Wed, 28 Nov 2012, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\nThe phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\nSELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n!!!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even more:\n\nhttp://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/terence-mckenna/\n\n\"Terence McKenna was the Magellan of psychedelic head space, and \nhumanity's first ambassador to the hyperdimensional machine elves of \nthe Eschaton.\"\n\nOne wonders what kind of trashy literature he had been reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, indeed. From his writing, he seems to have had enough of a \nclassical education to \"get\" Wolfe's allusions. One must wonder.\n\nI notice his Eschaton comes on December 21, 2012." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T12:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B56367.9000407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\nSomeone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St. Meh?).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\nThe phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\nSELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n!!!!\n\nOn 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked to put a hot coal\ninto his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord for him to speak.\nThat's about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his\nhand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my\nmouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away\nand your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following description\nof a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience in Sam Harris' response\nto the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and found some parts to be quite familiar\n(note the date):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian labyrinth,\na palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs that\nflood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\nsense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\nThere is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\nwonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\nnuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\nhuman history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\nhowling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the stars, is\nthe Aeon.\n\nThe Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\nwith colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\ntykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\nthe children destined to be father to the man? One has the\nimpression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies beyond the\nportals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\nsynesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the Other as\nourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\nmagic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be told, an\nepiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that which\nis stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\nunscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\nfifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer the gift\nof new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\ncolored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\ntoys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The sense of\nemotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\nrevealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\nanother in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\nThis is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\nlonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis wailing\nthrough the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\nof our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\nthe presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\ndimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\nimagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\nfearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore and to\nreport on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\nCan anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused me to post\nthis?\n\nIf nothing else, this description suggests that mystical visions\nexperienced by different people are more the same than they are different.\nThis commonality might even explain much of the deep attraction some\nreaders feel to the Solar cycle and Severian's account in particular.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B60721.6090801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T12:44:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\nThe way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the elves \nof the \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the Wolfean \ntransformations of the Fay and the classical gods into whatever he \nneeds---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when writing space opera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\nSomeone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St. Meh?).\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n !!!!\n\n On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n to put a hot coal\n into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n for him to speak.\n That's about it.\n\n\n Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n labyrinth,\n a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n that\n flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n stars, is\n the Aeon.\n\n The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n beyond the\n portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n Other as\n ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n told, an\n epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n which\n is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n the gift\n of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n sense of\n emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n wailing\n through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n and to\n report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n me to post this?\n\n If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n and Severian's account in particular.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T13:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B60721.6090801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the same phenomenon with Wolfe as with Lafferty - these conservative\nCatholic blokes happen to have such boundless imaginations (with\nphilosophical/theological gridwork to hold their wild speculations firmly\nin place) that they (mostly) unintentionally have lots of overlap with\nhippy, trippy, psychedelic, counterculture themes and ethoi (plural of\nethos?). It's fascinating. E.g. I often call Lafferty the Captain\nBeefheart of s.f. (spec fic), but he would have HATED Beefheart's music and\napproach, ha!\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThose are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\nThe way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the elves of\nthe \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the Wolfean\ntransformations of the Fay and the classical gods into whatever he\nneeds---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when writing space opera.\n\nOn 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\nSomeone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St. Meh?).\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n !!!!\n\n On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n to put a hot coal\n into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n for him to speak.\n That's about it.\n\n\n Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n labyrinth,\n a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n that\n flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n stars, is\n the Aeon.\n\n The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n beyond the\n portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n Other as\n ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n told, an\n epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n which\n is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n the gift\n of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n sense of\n emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n wailing\n through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n and to\n report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n me to post this?\n\n If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n and Severian's account in particular.\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B614E8.4020609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T13:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it is amazing. McKenna may have read Wolfe, but I have zero doubt \nthat Wolfe never heard of McKenna.\n\nI know little about Lafferty himself, but I agree---it would be easy to \nlump him with Beefheart, assuming perhaps that they were both products \nof the '60s and the beat poets. Or drugs. There is indeed something \nabout those white Catholic male authors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 8:24 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nIt's the same phenomenon with Wolfe as with Lafferty - these \nconservative Catholic blokes happen to have such boundless \nimaginations (with philosophical/theological gridwork to hold their \nwild speculations firmly in place) that they (mostly) unintentionally \nhave lots of overlap with hippy, trippy, psychedelic, counterculture \nthemes and ethoi (plural of ethos?). It's fascinating. E.g. I often \ncall Lafferty the Captain Beefheart of s.f. (spec fic), but he would \nhave HATED Beefheart's music and approach, ha!\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Those are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\n The way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the\n elves of the \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the\n Wolfean transformations of the Fay and the classical gods into\n whatever he needs---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when\n writing space opera.\n\n On 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\n Someone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St.\n Meh?).\n\n -DOJP\n\n On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n !!!!\n\n On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n to put a hot coal\n into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n for him to speak.\n That's about it.\n\n\n Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n labyrinth,\n a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n that\n flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n stars, is\n the Aeon.\n\n The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n beyond the\n portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n Other as\n ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n told, an\n epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n which\n is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n the gift\n of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n sense of\n emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n wailing\n through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n and to\n report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n me to post this?\n\n If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n and Severian's account in particular.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T16:01:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<50B614E8.4020609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lafferty felt himself just slightly distinct from mere 'white': he said in\nan interview that he avoided being a WASP by the narrow margin of being\ninstead a 'ruddy Irish Catholic' or something like that. I think he\nidentified slightly more with the nation's 'minorities'. For what it's\nworth.\n\nI find Wolfe's novella 'Hour of Trust' a fascinating self-conscious take on\n60s/70s counterculture. The rest of that decade (70s) Wolfe was\npractically participating in and helping create aspects of said\ncounterculture - but somewhere within it he seems to have went 'wait,\nwhat's this? interesting, let me document that and critique it somewhat'.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:43 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes, it is amazing. McKenna may have read Wolfe, but I have zero doubt\nthat Wolfe never heard of McKenna.\n\nI know little about Lafferty himself, but I agree---it would be easy to\nlump him with Beefheart, assuming perhaps that they were both products of\nthe '60s and the beat poets. Or drugs. There is indeed something about\nthose white Catholic male authors.\n\nOn 11/28/2012 8:24 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the same phenomenon with Wolfe as with Lafferty - these conservative\nCatholic blokes happen to have such boundless imaginations (with\nphilosophical/theological gridwork to hold their wild speculations firmly\nin place) that they (mostly) unintentionally have lots of overlap with\nhippy, trippy, psychedelic, counterculture themes and ethoi (plural of\nethos?). It's fascinating. E.g. I often call Lafferty the Captain Beefheart\nof s.f. (spec fic), but he would have HATED Beefheart's music and approach,\nha!\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Those are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\n The way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the\n elves of the \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the\n Wolfean transformations of the Fay and the classical gods into\n whatever he needs---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when\n writing space opera.\n\n On 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\n Someone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St.\n Meh?).\n\n -DOJP\n\n On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n !!!!\n\n On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n to put a hot coal\n into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n for him to speak.\n That's about it.\n\n\n Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n labyrinth,\n a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n that\n flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n stars, is\n the Aeon.\n\n The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n beyond the\n portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n Other as\n ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n told, an\n epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n which\n is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n the gift\n of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n sense of\n emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n wailing\n through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n and to\n report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n me to post this?\n\n If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n and Severian's account in particular.\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354123386.82556.YahooMailClassic@web160705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T17:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly enough, Hour of Trust is where my short story survey has stalled for a few months, but it will be back on track soon. I have some problems with that one and I have put off writing about it for a very long time.\n\nMarc\n\n--- On Wed, 11/28/12, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:01 AM\n\n\nLafferty felt himself just slightly distinct from mere 'white': ?he said in an interview that he avoided being a WASP by the narrow margin of being instead a 'ruddy Irish Catholic' or something like that. ?I think he identified slightly more with the nation's 'minorities'. ?For what it's worth.\n\n\nI find Wolfe's novella 'Hour of Trust' a fascinating self-conscious take on 60s/70s counterculture. “The rest of that decade (70s) Wolfe was practically participating in and helping create aspects of said counterculture - but somewhere within it he seems to have went 'wait, what's this” interesting, let me document that and critique it somewhat'.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:43 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nYes, it is amazing. McKenna may have read Wolfe, but I have zero doubt that Wolfe never heard of McKenna.\n\nI know little about Lafferty himself, but I agree---it would be easy to lump him with Beefheart, assuming perhaps that they were both products of the '60s and the beat poets. Or drugs. There is indeed something about those white Catholic male authors.\n\nOn 11/28/2012 8:24 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nIt's the same phenomenon with Wolfe as with Lafferty - these conservative Catholic blokes happen to have such boundless imaginations (with philosophical/theological gridwork to hold their wild speculations firmly in place) that they (mostly) unintentionally have lots of overlap with hippy, trippy, psychedelic, counterculture themes and ethoi (plural of ethos?). It's fascinating. E.g. I often call Lafferty the Captain Beefheart of s.f. (spec fic), but he would have HATED Beefheart's music and approach, ha!\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n? ? Those are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\n? ? The way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the\n? ? elves of the \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the\n? ? Wolfean transformations of the Fay and the classical gods into\n? ? whatever he needs---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when\n? ? writing space opera.\n\n? ? On 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n? ? ? ? ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\n? ? ? ? Someone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St.\n? ? ? ? Meh?).\n\n? ? ? ? -DOJP\n\n? ? ? ? On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff\n? ? ? ? \n? ? ? ? >> wrote:\n\n? ? ? ? What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n? ? ? ? The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n? ? ? ? SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n? ? ? ? !!!!\n\n? ? ? ? On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n? ? ? ? On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n? ? ? ? On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n? ? ? ? I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n? ? ? ? to put a hot coal\n? ? ? ? into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n? ? ? ? for him to speak.\n? ? ? ? That's about it.\n\n\n? ? ? ? Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n? ? ? ? live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n? ? ? ? the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n? ? ? ? this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n? ? ? ? your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n? ? ? ? Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n? ? ? ? description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n? ? ? ? in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n? ? ? ? found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n? ? ? ? Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n? ? ? ? labyrinth,\n? ? ? ? a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n? ? ? ? that\n? ? ? ? flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n? ? ? ? sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n? ? ? ? There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n? ? ? ? wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n? ? ? ? nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n? ? ? ? human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n? ? ? ? howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n? ? ? ? stars, is\n? ? ? ? the Aeon.\n\n? ? ? ? The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n? ? ? ? with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n? ? ? ? tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n? ? ? ? the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n? ? ? ? impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n? ? ? ? beyond the\n? ? ? ? portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n? ? ? ? synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n? ? ? ? Other as\n? ? ? ? ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n? ? ? ? magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n? ? ? ? told, an\n? ? ? ? epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n? ? ? ? which\n? ? ? ? is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n? ? ? ? unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n? ? ? ? fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n? ? ? ? the gift\n? ? ? ? of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n? ? ? ? colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n? ? ? ? toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n? ? ? ? sense of\n? ? ? ? emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n? ? ? ? revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n? ? ? ? another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n? ? ? ? This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n? ? ? ? lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n? ? ? ? wailing\n? ? ? ? through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n? ? ? ? of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n? ? ? ? the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n? ? ? ? dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n? ? ? ? imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n? ? ? ? fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n? ? ? ? and to\n? ? ? ? report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n? ? ? ? 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n? ? ? ? Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n? ? ? ? me to post this?\n\n? ? ? ? If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n? ? ? ? visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n? ? ? ? they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n? ? ? ? of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n? ? ? ? and Severian's account in particular.\n? ? ? ? _______________________________________________\n? ? ? ? Urth Mailing List\n? ? ? ? To post, write urth at urth.net \n? ? ? ? >\n? ? ? ? Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n? ? ? ? _______________________________________________\n? ? ? ? Urth Mailing List\n? ? ? ? To post, write urth at urth.net \n? ? ? ? >\n? ? ? ? Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n? ? ? ? -- ? ? ? ? Daniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n\n? ? ? ? _______________________________________________\n? ? ? ? Urth Mailing List\n? ? ? ? To post, write urth at urth.net \n? ? ? ? Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n? ? _______________________________________________\n? ? Urth Mailing List\n? ? To post, write urth at urth.net \n? ? Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-- \nDaniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T22:39:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish", "in_reply_to": "<1354123386.82556.YahooMailClassic@web160705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I look forward to your analysis. (Again, I note that Lafferty had similar\nslightly bemused and sceptical reactions to not only the hippie/post-hippie\nmovement in general but the 'Jesus Movement' within that.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nInterestingly enough, Hour of Trust is where my short story survey has\nstalled for a few months, but it will be back on track soon. I have some\nproblems with that one and I have put off writing about it for a very long\ntime.\n\nMarc\n\n--- On *Wed, 11/28/12, Daniel Petersen *wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Daniel Petersen \nSubject: Re: (urth) Claw = Fang? off-topic-ish\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 8:01 AM\n\nLafferty felt himself just slightly distinct from mere 'white': he said\nin an interview that he avoided being a WASP by the narrow margin of being\ninstead a 'ruddy Irish Catholic' or something like that. I think he\nidentified slightly more with the nation's 'minorities'. For what it's\nworth.\n\nI find Wolfe's novella 'Hour of Trust' a fascinating self-conscious take\non 60s/70s counterculture. The rest of that decade (70s) Wolfe was\npractically participating in and helping create aspects of said\ncounterculture - but somewhere within it he seems to have went 'wait,\nwhat's this? interesting, let me document that and critique it somewhat'.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:43 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\n\nYes, it is amazing. McKenna may have read Wolfe, but I have zero doubt\nthat Wolfe never heard of McKenna.\n\nI know little about Lafferty himself, but I agree---it would be easy to\nlump him with Beefheart, assuming perhaps that they were both products of\nthe '60s and the beat poets. Or drugs. There is indeed something about\nthose white Catholic male authors.\n\nOn 11/28/2012 8:24 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nIt's the same phenomenon with Wolfe as with Lafferty - these conservative\nCatholic blokes happen to have such boundless imaginations (with\nphilosophical/theological gridwork to hold their wild speculations firmly\nin place) that they (mostly) unintentionally have lots of overlap with\nhippy, trippy, psychedelic, counterculture themes and ethoi (plural of\nethos?). It's fascinating. E.g. I often call Lafferty the Captain Beefheart\nof s.f. (spec fic), but he would have HATED Beefheart's music and approach,\nha!\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff \n**>> wrote:\n\n Those are cool too. But it WOULD make a great band name.\n\n The way McKenna wonders whether the hyperspace elves are also the\n elves of the \"magic light of childhood\" also reminds me of the\n Wolfean transformations of the Fay and the classical gods into\n whatever he needs---Faerie into Olympus into Yesod---even when\n writing space opera.\n\n On 11/28/2012 7:13 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n ha ha! I thought maybe it was 'nuncio' and 'Aeon' and such.\n\n Someone should start a band called that (S-T.M.E.o.H - er, St.\n Meh?).\n\n -DOJP\n\n On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, David Stockhoff\n \n**>\n \n \n**>>> wrote:\n\n What? no takers? I thought it was an easy question.\n\n The phrase that caught my eye was this:\n\n SELF-TRANSFORMING MACHINE ELVES OF HYPERSPACE\n\n !!!!\n\n On 11/27/2012 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n On 11/26/2012 11:45 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 11/26/2012 3:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n I've never heard of this test -- one prophet was asked\n to put a hot coal\n into his mouth which then became The Word Of The Lord\n for him to speak.\n That's about it.\n\n\n Isaiah 6: \"6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a\n live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from\n the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See,\n this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and\n your sin atoned for.' \"\n\n\n Speaking of visions (sort of), I encountered the following\n description of a \"prototypical\" hallucinatory (DMT) experience\n in Sam Harris' response to the new book \"Proof of Heaven\" and\n found some parts to be quite familiar (note the date):\n\n Under the influence of DMT, the world becomes an Arabian\n labyrinth,\n a palace, a more than possible Martian jewel, vast with motifs\n that\n flood the gaping mind with complex and wordless awe. Color and the\n sense of a reality-unlocking secret nearby pervade the experience.\n There is a sense of other times, and of one’s own infancy, and of\n wonder, wonder and more wonder. It is an audience with the alien\n nuncio. In the midst of this experience, apparently at the end of\n human history, guarding gates that seem surely to open on the\n howling maelstrom of the unspeakable emptiness between the\n stars, is\n the Aeon.\n\n The Aeon, as Heraclitus presciently observed, is a child at play\n with colored balls. Many diminutive beings are present there the\n tykes, the self-transforming machine elves of hyperspace. Are they\n the children destined to be father to the man? One has the\n impression of entering into an ecology of souls that lies\n beyond the\n portals of what we naively call death. I do not know. Are they the\n synesthetic embodiment of ourselves as the Other, or of the\n Other as\n ourselves? Are they the elves lost to us since the fading of the\n magic light of childhood? Here is a tremendum barely to be\n told, an\n epiphany beyond our wildest dreams. Here is the realm of that\n which\n is stranger than we /can/ suppose. Here is the mystery, alive,\n unscathed, still as new for us as when our ancestors lived it\n fifteen thousand summers ago. The tryptamine entities offer\n the gift\n of new language, they sing in pearly voices that rain down as\n colored petals and flow through the air like hot metal to become\n toys and such gifts as gods would give their children. The\n sense of\n emotional connection is terrifying and intense. The Mysteries\n revealed are real and if ever fully told will leave no stone upon\n another in the small world we have gone so ill in.\n\n This is not the mercurial world of the UFO, to be invoked from\n lonely hilltops; this is not the siren song of lost Atlantis\n wailing\n through the trailer courts of crack-crazed America. DMT is not one\n of our irrational illusions. I believe that what we experience in\n the presence of DMT is real news. It is a nearby\n dimension frightening, transformative, and beyond our powers to\n imagine, and yet to be explored in the usual way. We must send\n fearless experts, whatever that may come to mean, to explore\n and to\n report on what they find. (Terence McKenna, /Food of the Gods/,\n 1992, pp. 258-259.)\n\n\n Can anyone guess which four or five words in particular caused\n me to post this?\n\n If nothing else, this description suggests that mystical\n visions experienced by different people are more the same than\n they are different. This commonality might even explain much\n of the deep attraction some readers feel to the Solar cycle\n and Severian's account in particular.\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] } ] }