{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6304", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6304, "subject": "Pirate Freedom revisited", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2012-11-03T11:24:26+00:00", "last": "2012-11-08T13:18:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ed EDson", "address": "thalassocrat12 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T11:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted it to this list.\nHaving just re-read PF I think this can be elaborated in interesting ways.\n\nThe idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to return to the\nfuture in the same year he was born, around 2007. This leads to thinking\nabout Chris' transitions. We are told nothing about how or why these occur,\nbut I think at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the past\nhas something to do with Chris being at the monastery.\n\nHowever, there are objections. First, only Chris and Ingnacio appear to\nmake the transition - Chris is convinced he would not be able to return to\nthe monastery, for example. Second, his return to the future happens from a\ndifferent place, out in the sea - so at least that transition doesn't\ndepend on the monastery.\n\nWhat if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on time and not on\nplace? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he would be sent to the past, and\nwherever he is in ~1675, he would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris,\nso he goes back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when Chris\ngoes forward.\n\nNow the direction in which this is heading should be obvious - perhaps\nChris is his own father. If the baby Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it\n(and hopefully she herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with\nIgnacio.\n\nObviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we can make up\nplausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future dies, perhaps Ignacio sells\nher or kills her. In any event, whatever he says or believes of himself,\nChris' actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see what\nhappens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at Rio hato - he hugs him;\nhe *thinks* of Valentin, but it \"didn't seem to be the time to bring it\nup\", because he was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's surely\nthe case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with Ignacio, sealing a bond by\nkilling Valentin for him, and then plotting with him the hijack of the gold\nand the massacre.\n\nSo when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I think it's clear\nenough that Ignacio has a share of the Rio Hato gold stashed somehwere and\nof course plans to dig up Captain Burt's treasure also.\n\nBut then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally unexpected. Imagine how\npissed he must have been! Back to the drawing board. He's now ~36 years\nold. He'll spend the next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in\nNJ, sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what needs to be\ndone to \"engineer\" Chris, by making sure he is under the wing of his\nyounger self at the monastery, and setting in place the events leading to\nhis own birth. When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and\ndoes what needs to be done to make sure that all the treasure is someplace\nwhere he can retieve it in the future - he knows everything that Ignacio\nhas plotted, of course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off\nboth his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem.\n\nReturning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to treasure worth many\nmillions, and knowing everything that \"Chris' dad\" knew, perhaps on this\nrun-through he becomes some kind of mob top management, in a position to\nsend his younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go back again,\nor does he die sometime before the clock ticks on 2024 again - who knows?\n\n\nPost from 2007:\n\n\"I come to the following conclusions:\n\n- Chris1's \"birthday\" is around about now; 2007.\n- Chris2 is writing in about 2017.\n- Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as\nChris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...)\n- The pirate-action happens in about 1675.\n\nHere's how I get there. First, we have some information about\nvarious events in Chris1's time-line:\n\nA: \"Born\"\nB: Goes to Cuba\nC: Enters monastery school\nD: Begins novitiate\nE: Ends novitiate & goes to past\nF: Goes forward again\n\nWe know:\n\nB = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10).\nC = A+13 (approx: he went to school \"a few years\" after arriving in\nCuba).\nD = A+16 (approx: \"A year seems like a lifetime at that age, so\nthree or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from being a\nstudent to being a novice ...\")\nE = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?)\nF = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have been more\nthan this to me.)\n\nFor Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to become\nIgnacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop Scully,\nwith maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming \"F\"\nabove is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past, so that\nwas about ten years before he heads to Cuba.\n\nAnd so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around \"B\", when Chris1 and his\nfather go, the date of his appearance from the past must have been\naround about \"A\".\n\nIn other words, he comes back at about the same time he was \"born\".\n\n\nWe have reasonable dating for the \"past\" action. Captain Burt\nspeaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the world \"almost\na hundred years ago\". This voyage lasted from 1577 through 1580.\nLet's say \"E\" = 1675.\n\nWe can use this to kludge up an estimate for the \"present\" datings.\nAt the very end of the book, Chris2 says: \"Today .. we have been\ndead 300 years\". This is rubbery, but let's assume that Chris2\nassumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That gives him\nanother 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back in the\n\"past\", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three hundred\nyears on from then is 2017.\n\nThat fixes an approximate date for \"B\", the date when Chris1 and\n(presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years into our\nfuture. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or whatever\njust about now.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T16:55:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Chris who is writing the story seems a bit more complex than some\ncunning greedy mob boss type. His commentary on both his pirate adventures\nand his current Catholic and urban context suggests a very theologically,\nmorally, and spiritually engaged character.\n\n(Amazing effort trying to map out that chronology by the way.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Ed EDson wrote:\nMany moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted it to this\nlist. Having just re-read PF I think this can be elaborated in interesting\nways.\n\nThe idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to return to the\nfuture in the same year he was born, around 2007. This leads to thinking\nabout Chris' transitions. We are told nothing about how or why these occur,\nbut I think at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the past\nhas something to do with Chris being at the monastery.\n\nHowever, there are objections. First, only Chris and Ingnacio appear to\nmake the transition - Chris is convinced he would not be able to return to\nthe monastery, for example. Second, his return to the future happens from a\ndifferent place, out in the sea - so at least that transition doesn't\ndepend on the monastery.\n\nWhat if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on time and not on\nplace? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he would be sent to the past, and\nwherever he is in ~1675, he would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris,\nso he goes back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when Chris\ngoes forward.\n\nNow the direction in which this is heading should be obvious - perhaps\nChris is his own father. If the baby Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it\n(and hopefully she herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with\nIgnacio.\n\nObviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we can make up\nplausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future dies, perhaps Ignacio sells\nher or kills her. In any event, whatever he says or believes of himself,\nChris' actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see what\nhappens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at Rio hato - he hugs him;\nhe *thinks* of Valentin, but it \"didn't seem to be the time to bring it\nup\", because he was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's surely\nthe case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with Ignacio, sealing a bond by\nkilling Valentin for him, and then plotting with him the hijack of the gold\nand the massacre.\n\nSo when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I think it's clear\nenough that Ignacio has a share of the Rio Hato gold stashed somehwere and\nof course plans to dig up Captain Burt's treasure also.\n\nBut then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally unexpected. Imagine how\npissed he must have been! Back to the drawing board. He's now ~36 years\nold. He'll spend the next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in\nNJ, sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what needs to be\ndone to \"engineer\" Chris, by making sure he is under the wing of his\nyounger self at the monastery, and setting in place the events leading to\nhis own birth. When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and\ndoes what needs to be done to make sure that all the treasure is someplace\nwhere he can retieve it in the future - he knows everything that Ignacio\nhas plotted, of course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off\nboth his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem.\n\nReturning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to treasure worth many\nmillions, and knowing everything that \"Chris' dad\" knew, perhaps on this\nrun-through he becomes some kind of mob top management, in a position to\nsend his younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go back again,\nor does he die sometime before the clock ticks on 2024 again - who knows?\n\n\nPost from 2007:\n\n\"I come to the following conclusions:\n\n- Chris1's \"birthday\" is around about now; 2007.\n- Chris2 is writing in about 2017.\n- Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as\nChris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...)\n- The pirate-action happens in about 1675.\n\nHere's how I get there. First, we have some information about\nvarious events in Chris1's time-line:\n\nA: \"Born\"\nB: Goes to Cuba\nC: Enters monastery school\nD: Begins novitiate\nE: Ends novitiate & goes to past\nF: Goes forward again\n\nWe know:\n\nB = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10).\nC = A+13 (approx: he went to school \"a few years\" after arriving in\nCuba).\nD = A+16 (approx: \"A year seems like a lifetime at that age, so\nthree or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from being a\nstudent to being a novice ...\")\nE = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?)\nF = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have been more\nthan this to me.)\n\nFor Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to become\nIgnacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop Scully,\nwith maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming \"F\"\nabove is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past, so that\nwas about ten years before he heads to Cuba.\n\nAnd so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around \"B\", when Chris1 and his\nfather go, the date of his appearance from the past must have been\naround about \"A\".\n\nIn other words, he comes back at about the same time he was \"born\".\n\n\nWe have reasonable dating for the \"past\" action. Captain Burt\nspeaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the world \"almost\na hundred years ago\". This voyage lasted from 1577 through 1580.\nLet's say \"E\" = 1675.\n\nWe can use this to kludge up an estimate for the \"present\" datings.\nAt the very end of the book, Chris2 says: \"Today .. we have been\ndead 300 years\". This is rubbery, but let's assume that Chris2\nassumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That gives him\nanother 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back in the\n\"past\", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three hundred\nyears on from then is 2017.\n\nThat fixes an approximate date for \"B\", the date when Chris1 and\n(presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years into our\nfuture. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or whatever\njust about now.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1351966444.23694.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T18:14:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting.\n\nFor Chris's parents to be himself and Novia is genetically drastically unlikely. ?Even if you make Novia Chris's daughter (!), the odds are worse than 1 in 70 trillion that the baby would get the right set of chromosomes. ?I'd prefer for Chris to be a clone of himself, which would be amusing. ?(It's been suggested that he's a clone, since he calls himself a \"half-human monster\" and never mentions his mother.) ?That would leave the problem of when he was engineered to be tall.\n\nA difficulty with all of these, maybe not insurmountable--can you get mobbed up if you don't have a family?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ed EDson", "address": "thalassocrat12 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T20:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nThe Chris who is writing the story seems a bit more complex than some\ncunning greedy mob boss type. His commentary on both his pirate adventures\nand his current Catholic and urban context suggests a very theologically,\nmorally, and spiritually engaged character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Apols for the name change - I screwed up setting up a new gmail account.)\nI read the book differently. I think in Chris Wolfe paints a picture of a\ncharacter who knows what \"good\" is but who wilfully chooses \"evil\" in his\n*actions*, which is all that matters in the end. He makes repeated repeated\nconfessions, but they are all bad confessions, because there is no actual\nrepentance.\nFor example, look at how he discusses \"offing\" Michet & recall that\nexplaining this murder is why he says he is writing at all. Michet was a\npirate the Spanish would have hanged out of hand; Michet could have been\nkilled in the fight anyway & it's just chance that he wasn't; Chris didn't\nhave a choice, because he couldn't keep respect if he let Michet's\ninsolence go unpunished. Finally, it's God's fault for plopping Chris down\nin those times, and Chris would do it all over again - \"I would have to\".\nIn the end, Ignacio of course does choose that it happen all over again. No\nmatter what excuses you can make for 17 year old Chris, you can't make any\nexcuses for that.\nI think Chris ending up as an evil old mob reptile is totally appropriate\nand it's one of the reasons why I like my elaborated chronology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Ed EDson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Many moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted it to this\nlist. Having just re-read PF I think this can be elaborated in interesting\nways.\n\nThe idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to return to the\nfuture in the same year he was born, around 2007. This leads to thinking\nabout Chris' transitions. We are told nothing about how or why these occur,\nbut I think at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the past\nhas something to do with Chris being at the monastery.\n\nHowever, there are objections. First, only Chris and Ingnacio appear to\nmake the transition - Chris is convinced he would not be able to return to\nthe monastery, for example. Second, his return to the future happens from a\ndifferent place, out in the sea - so at least that transition doesn't\ndepend on the monastery.\n\nWhat if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on time and not on\nplace? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he would be sent to the past, and\nwherever he is in ~1675, he would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris,\nso he goes back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when Chris\ngoes forward.\n\nNow the direction in which this is heading should be obvious - perhaps\nChris is his own father. If the baby Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it\n(and hopefully she herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with\nIgnacio.\n\nObviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we can make up\nplausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future dies, perhaps Ignacio sells\nher or kills her. In any event, whatever he says or believes of himself,\nChris' actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see what\nhappens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at Rio hato - he hugs him;\nhe *thinks* of Valentin, but it \"didn't seem to be the time to bring it\nup\", because he was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's surely\nthe case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with Ignacio, sealing a bond by\nkilling Valentin for him, and then plotting with him the hijack of the gold\nand the massacre.\n\nSo when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I think it's clear\nenough that Ignacio has a share of the Rio Hato gold stashed somehwere and\nof course plans to dig up Captain Burt's treasure also.\n\nBut then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally unexpected. Imagine how\npissed he must have been! Back to the drawing board. He's now ~36 years\nold. He'll spend the next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in\nNJ, sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what needs to be\ndone to \"engineer\" Chris, by making sure he is under the wing of his\nyounger self at the monastery, and setting in place the events leading to\nhis own birth. When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and\ndoes what needs to be done to make sure that all the treasure is someplace\nwhere he can retieve it in the future - he knows everything that Ignacio\nhas plotted, of course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off\nboth his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem.\n\nReturning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to treasure worth many\nmillions, and knowing everything that \"Chris' dad\" knew, perhaps on this\nrun-through he becomes some kind of mob top management, in a position to\nsend his younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go back again,\nor does he die sometime before the clock ticks on 2024 again - who knows?\n\n\nPost from 2007:\n\n\"I come to the following conclusions:\n\n- Chris1's \"birthday\" is around about now; 2007.\n- Chris2 is writing in about 2017.\n- Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as\nChris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...)\n- The pirate-action happens in about 1675.\n\nHere's how I get there. First, we have some information about\nvarious events in Chris1's time-line:\n\nA: \"Born\"\nB: Goes to Cuba\nC: Enters monastery school\nD: Begins novitiate\nE: Ends novitiate & goes to past\nF: Goes forward again\n\nWe know:\n\nB = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10).\nC = A+13 (approx: he went to school \"a few years\" after arriving in\nCuba).\nD = A+16 (approx: \"A year seems like a lifetime at that age, so\nthree or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from being a\nstudent to being a novice ...\")\nE = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?)\nF = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have been more\nthan this to me.)\n\nFor Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to become\nIgnacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop Scully,\nwith maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming \"F\"\nabove is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past, so that\nwas about ten years before he heads to Cuba.\n\nAnd so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around \"B\", when Chris1 and his\nfather go, the date of his appearance from the past must have been\naround about \"A\".\n\nIn other words, he comes back at about the same time he was \"born\".\n\n\nWe have reasonable dating for the \"past\" action. Captain Burt\nspeaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the world \"almost\na hundred years ago\". This voyage lasted from 1577 through 1580.\nLet's say \"E\" = 1675.\n\nWe can use this to kludge up an estimate for the \"present\" datings.\nAt the very end of the book, Chris2 says: \"Today .. we have been\ndead 300 years\". This is rubbery, but let's assume that Chris2\nassumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That gives him\nanother 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back in the\n\"past\", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three hundred\nyears on from then is 2017.\n\nThat fixes an approximate date for \"B\", the date when Chris1 and\n(presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years into our\nfuture. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or whatever\njust about now.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-03T21:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that's a plausible reading. I need to read the book again. I came\naway with the kind of possibilities you're suggesting here in tension with\nwhat seemed to me a more spiritually sensitive person in the confessor.\n Thus making Chris a much more complex character than either simply 'good'\nor simply 'evil' (the latter being what I think your reading avers), a\nlittle closer to the moral complexity of someone like Severian perhaps.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Ed EDson wrote:\n\nOn Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Chris who is writing the story seems a bit more complex than some\ncunning greedy mob boss type. His commentary on both his pirate adventures\nand his current Catholic and urban context suggests a very theologically,\nmorally, and spiritually engaged character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Apols for the name change - I screwed up setting up a new gmail account.)\nI read the book differently. I think in Chris Wolfe paints a picture of a\ncharacter who knows what \"good\" is but who wilfully chooses \"evil\" in his\n*actions*, which is all that matters in the end. He makes repeated repeated\nconfessions, but they are all bad confessions, because there is no actual\nrepentance.\n For example, look at how he discusses \"offing\" Michet & recall that\nexplaining this murder is why he says he is writing at all. Michet was a\npirate the Spanish would have hanged out of hand; Michet could have been\nkilled in the fight anyway & it's just chance that he wasn't; Chris didn't\nhave a choice, because he couldn't keep respect if he let Michet's\ninsolence go unpunished. Finally, it's God's fault for plopping Chris down\nin those times, and Chris would do it all over again - \"I would have to\".\n In the end, Ignacio of course does choose that it happen all over again.\nNo matter what excuses you can make for 17 year old Chris, you can't make\nany excuses for that.\nI think Chris ending up as an evil old mob reptile is totally appropriate\nand it's one of the reasons why I like my elaborated chronology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Ed EDson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Many moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted it to this\nlist. Having just re-read PF I think this can be elaborated in interesting\nways.\n\nThe idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to return to the\nfuture in the same year he was born, around 2007. This leads to thinking\nabout Chris' transitions. We are told nothing about how or why these occur,\nbut I think at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the past\nhas something to do with Chris being at the monastery.\n\nHowever, there are objections. First, only Chris and Ingnacio appear to\nmake the transition - Chris is convinced he would not be able to return to\nthe monastery, for example. Second, his return to the future happens from a\ndifferent place, out in the sea - so at least that transition doesn't\ndepend on the monastery.\n\nWhat if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on time and not\non place? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he would be sent to the past, and\nwherever he is in ~1675, he would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris,\nso he goes back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when Chris\ngoes forward.\n\nNow the direction in which this is heading should be obvious - perhaps\nChris is his own father. If the baby Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it\n(and hopefully she herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with\nIgnacio.\n\nObviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we can make up\nplausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future dies, perhaps Ignacio sells\nher or kills her. In any event, whatever he says or believes of himself,\nChris' actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see what\nhappens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at Rio hato - he hugs him;\nhe *thinks* of Valentin, but it \"didn't seem to be the time to bring it\nup\", because he was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's surely\nthe case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with Ignacio, sealing a bond by\nkilling Valentin for him, and then plotting with him the hijack of the gold\nand the massacre.\n\nSo when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I think it's\nclear enough that Ignacio has a share of the Rio Hato gold stashed\nsomehwere and of course plans to dig up Captain Burt's treasure also.\n\nBut then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally unexpected. Imagine how\npissed he must have been! Back to the drawing board. He's now ~36 years\nold. He'll spend the next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in\nNJ, sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what needs to be\ndone to \"engineer\" Chris, by making sure he is under the wing of his\nyounger self at the monastery, and setting in place the events leading to\nhis own birth. When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and\ndoes what needs to be done to make sure that all the treasure is someplace\nwhere he can retieve it in the future - he knows everything that Ignacio\nhas plotted, of course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off\nboth his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem.\n\nReturning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to treasure worth many\nmillions, and knowing everything that \"Chris' dad\" knew, perhaps on this\nrun-through he becomes some kind of mob top management, in a position to\nsend his younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go back again,\nor does he die sometime before the clock ticks on 2024 again - who knows?\n\n\nPost from 2007:\n\n\"I come to the following conclusions:\n\n- Chris1's \"birthday\" is around about now; 2007.\n- Chris2 is writing in about 2017.\n- Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as\nChris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...)\n- The pirate-action happens in about 1675.\n\nHere's how I get there. First, we have some information about\nvarious events in Chris1's time-line:\n\nA: \"Born\"\nB: Goes to Cuba\nC: Enters monastery school\nD: Begins novitiate\nE: Ends novitiate & goes to past\nF: Goes forward again\n\nWe know:\n\nB = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10).\nC = A+13 (approx: he went to school \"a few years\" after arriving in\nCuba).\nD = A+16 (approx: \"A year seems like a lifetime at that age, so\nthree or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from being a\nstudent to being a novice ...\")\nE = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?)\nF = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have been more\nthan this to me.)\n\nFor Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to become\nIgnacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop Scully,\nwith maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming \"F\"\nabove is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past, so that\nwas about ten years before he heads to Cuba.\n\nAnd so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around \"B\", when Chris1 and his\nfather go, the date of his appearance from the past must have been\naround about \"A\".\n\nIn other words, he comes back at about the same time he was \"born\".\n\n\nWe have reasonable dating for the \"past\" action. Captain Burt\nspeaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the world \"almost\na hundred years ago\". This voyage lasted from 1577 through 1580.\nLet's say \"E\" = 1675.\n\nWe can use this to kludge up an estimate for the \"present\" datings.\nAt the very end of the book, Chris2 says: \"Today .. we have been\ndead 300 years\". This is rubbery, but let's assume that Chris2\nassumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That gives him\nanother 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back in the\n\"past\", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three hundred\nyears on from then is 2017.\n\nThat fixes an approximate date for \"B\", the date when Chris1 and\n(presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years into our\nfuture. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or whatever\njust about now.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5095915D.1080701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-03T21:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too. Chris seemed to me like a more or less \"good\" (or at least \ncivilized and self-aware) person who does bad things, some of them \nnecessary but by no means all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2012 5:37 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nYeah, that's a plausible reading. I need to read the book again. I \ncame away with the kind of possibilities you're suggesting here in \ntension with what seemed to me a more spiritually sensitive person in \nthe confessor. Thus making Chris a much more complex character than \neither simply 'good' or simply 'evil' (the latter being what I think \nyour reading avers), a little closer to the moral complexity of \nsomeone like Severian perhaps.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Ed EDson > wrote:\n\n\n On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen\n > wrote:\n\n The Chris who is writing the story seems a bit more complex\n than some cunning greedy mob boss type. His commentary on\n both his pirate adventures and his current Catholic and urban\n context suggests a very theologically, morally, and\n spiritually engaged character.\n\n (Apols for the name change - I screwed up setting up a new gmail\n account.)\n I read the book differently. I think in Chris Wolfe paints a\n picture of a character who knows what \"good\" is but who wilfully\n chooses \"evil\" in his *actions*, which is all that matters in the\n end. He makes repeated repeated confessions, but they are all bad\n confessions, because there is no actual repentance.\n For example, look at how he discusses \"offing\" Michet & recall\n that explaining this murder is why he says he is writing at all.\n Michet was a pirate the Spanish would have hanged out of hand;\n Michet could have been killed in the fight anyway & it's just\n chance that he wasn't; Chris didn't have a choice, because he\n couldn't keep respect if he let Michet's insolence go unpunished.\n Finally, it's God's fault for plopping Chris down in those times,\n and Chris would do it all over again - \"I would have to\".\n In the end, Ignacio of course does choose that it happen all over\n again. No matter what excuses you can make for 17 year old Chris,\n you can't make any excuses for that.\n I think Chris ending up as an evil old mob reptile is totally\n appropriate and it's one of the reasons why I like my elaborated\n chronology.\n\n On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Ed EDson\n >\n wrote:\n\n Many moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted\n it to this list. Having just re-read PF I think this can\n be elaborated in interesting ways.\n The idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to\n return to the future in the same year he was born, around\n 2007. This leads to thinking about Chris' transitions. We\n are told nothing about how or why these occur, but I think\n at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the\n past has something to do with Chris being at the monastery.\n However, there are objections. First, only Chris and\n Ingnacio appear to make the transition - Chris is\n convinced he would not be able to return to the monastery,\n for example. Second, his return to the future happens from\n a different place, out in the sea - so at least that\n transition doesn't depend on the monastery.\n What if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on\n time and not on place? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he\n would be sent to the past, and wherever he is in ~1675, he\n would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris, so he goes\n back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when\n Chris goes forward.\n Now the direction in which this is heading should be\n obvious - perhaps Chris is his own father. If the baby\n Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it (and hopefully she\n herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with\n Ignacio.\n Obviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we\n can make up plausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future\n dies, perhaps Ignacio sells her or kills her. In any\n event, whatever he says or believes of himself, Chris'\n actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see\n what happens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at\n Rio hato - he hugs him; he *thinks* of Valentin, but it\n \"didn't seem to be the time to bring it up\", because he\n was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's\n surely the case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with\n Ignacio, sealing a bond by killing Valentin for him, and\n then plotting with him the hijack of the gold and the\n massacre.\n So when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I\n think it's clear enough that Ignacio has a share of the\n Rio Hato gold stashed somehwere and of course plans to dig\n up Captain Burt's treasure also.\n But then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally\n unexpected. Imagine how pissed he must have been! Back to\n the drawing board. He's now ~36 years old. He'll spend the\n next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in NJ,\n sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what\n needs to be done to \"engineer\" Chris, by making sure he is\n under the wing of his younger self at the monastery, and\n setting in place the events leading to his own birth. \n When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and\n does what needs to be done to make sure that all the\n treasure is someplace where he can retieve it in the\n future - he knows everything that Ignacio has plotted, of\n course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off\n both his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem.\n Returning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to\n treasure worth many millions, and knowing everything that\n \"Chris' dad\" knew, perhaps on this run-through he becomes\n some kind of mob top management, in a position to send his\n younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go\n back again, or does he die sometime before the clock ticks\n on 2024 again - who knows?\n Post from 2007:\n \"I come to the following conclusions:\n\n - Chris1's \"birthday\" is around about now; 2007.\n - Chris2 is writing in about 2017.\n - Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as\n Chris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...)\n - The pirate-action happens in about 1675.\n\n Here's how I get there. First, we have some information about\n various events in Chris1's time-line:\n\n A: \"Born\"\n B: Goes to Cuba\n C: Enters monastery school\n D: Begins novitiate\n E: Ends novitiate & goes to past\n F: Goes forward again\n\n We know:\n\n B = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10).\n C = A+13 (approx: he went to school \"a few years\" after\n arriving in\n Cuba).\n D = A+16 (approx: \"A year seems like a lifetime at that\n age, so\n three or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from\n being a\n student to being a novice ...\")\n E = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?)\n F = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have\n been more\n than this to me.)\n\n For Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to\n become\n Ignacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop\n Scully,\n with maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming\n \"F\"\n above is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past,\n so that\n was about ten years before he heads to Cuba.\n\n And so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around \"B\", when\n Chris1 and his\n father go, the date of his appearance from the past must\n have been\n around about \"A\".\n\n In other words, he comes back at about the same time he\n was \"born\".\n\n\n We have reasonable dating for the \"past\" action. Captain\n Burt\n speaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the\n world \"almost\n a hundred years ago\". This voyage lasted from 1577 through\n 1580.\n Let's say \"E\" = 1675.\n\n We can use this to kludge up an estimate for the \"present\"\n datings.\n At the very end of the book, Chris2 says: \"Today .. we\n have been\n dead 300 years\". This is rubbery, but let's assume that\n Chris2\n assumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That\n gives him\n another 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back\n in the\n \"past\", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three\n hundred\n years on from then is 2017.\n\n That fixes an approximate date for \"B\", the date when\n Chris1 and\n (presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years\n into our\n future. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or\n whatever\n just about now.\"\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "thalassocrat12 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-08T13:18:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom revisited", "in_reply_to": "<1351966444.23694.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nVery interesting.\n\nFor Chris's parents to be himself and Novia is genetically drastically\nunlikely. Even if you make Novia Chris's daughter (!), the odds are worse\nthan 1 in 70 trillion that the baby would get the right set of chromosomes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a fair criticism, of course. I wish I were more comfortable than I\nam with the counter-argument that the genetic odds are surely far greater\nthan the probability of Chris' time-travel - so if one, why not the other?\n\nYou can avoid the problem by making one of the other sailors the biological\nfather, but there's just about nothing in the text to hang that on. Some\nlack of absolute confidence on Chris' part concerning Novia's total\nfidelity to him; the big fight they have while battling through the straits\nof Magellan ... Weak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I'd prefer for Chris to be a clone of himself, which would be amusing.\n (It's been suggested that he's a clone, since he calls himself a\n\"half-human monster\" and never mentions his mother.) That would leave the\nproblem of when he was engineered to be tall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never liked the cloning idea for Chris - it would have to happen in\n~2007, as far as I can see, not at some future date when the technology\nmight actually exist - and anyway I don't think there's much in the text to\nsupport cloning. Some kind of genetic engineering fits better - Chris\nconstructed in a test-tube as a monstrous hybrid between human and, say,\nwolf. Sometimes St Christopher was depicted as having the head of a dog,\nand at least to me, Chris has some of the characteristics of an animal\npredator - whatever empathy he has for his victims is irrelevant with\nrespect to his actual ruthlessness, but on the other hand there is no hit\nof sadism or psychopathy. This would deal with lack of mother, \"egineered\"\nand \"half-human monster\" but not the technological implausibility or the\nbasic question of why his \"father\" would want to do such a thing." } ] } ] }