{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6309", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6309, "subject": "What symbols mean for Wolfe", "messages": 20, "voices": 9, "first": "2012-11-23T11:28:47+00:00", "last": "2012-11-27T14:42:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T11:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*In response to the previous thread inquiring into the meaning of the thorn\nin the claw and what all other symbols, fangs, talons, etc., this might\npossibly allude to, I thought I’d start a new thread in order to solicit\ngeneral thoughts, as well as to give my own, as to what symbols mean for\nWolfe.\n\nI don’t mean this thread to be about any particular symbol(s), but an\ninquiry into what symbology itself is. Of course we’ll have to use\nindividual symbols as examples, but that will be only to elucidate how\nWolfe uses symbols in general rather than to inquire into what a specific\nsymbol means.\n\nForgive me if all I say is well known stuff from this list. I’m brand new\nto this mailing list and have not read through the archives at all, nor\n have I read any scholarly works on Wolfe; I’ve only read the five books\ncomprising the Book of the New Sun.\n\nWith that, here are some of my own observations with support from the\ntext of TBotNS\n\n1. Symbols REPRESENT human life.\n\n*\n*That is to say, that the story of an individual human beings? life, a\nparticular group of human beings lives, or human life in general, can\nall be represented, in various ways, by various symbols. This means that\na symbol can no more be exhaustively defined then a human being or\nhumanity can be.\n\nIn the text, in the very first paragraph, Severian remembers the wisps\nof river fog threading the spikes in the locked gate like mountain paths\nand this image is for him a SYMBOL of his exile.\n\nThen after four books, at the very end of TCotA, he tells us that he has\ncarried us, his readers, from\n\n“gate to gate -- from the locked and fog shrouded gate of the necropolis,\n to the cloud racked gate we call the sky, the gate that shall lead me, as\nI hope, beyond the nearer stars”.\n\nSo, from the locked gate of the graveyard to the gate of Hope -- which\nis as wide open as the sky. Thus Wolfe expresses his Christianity, but I\ndigress; this isn’t really my point in citing these passages.\n\nWe know that the locked graveyard gate symbolizes Severian’s exile from\nthe guild, but we also know, by the way this is expressed, that Severian\nsees that exile as a symbol of an even larger Exile, the one that will end\non the other side of the sky gate.\n\nThe story of his life is Exile. But we could go on forever about what\nthis means without ever exhausting its meaning and could probably find\nsomething in every chapter/episode of all four of these books which would\nadd to what Exile means. And whatever we’d find, it is all contained in\nthis one symbol: a locked graveyard gate with fog wisping in it.\nSo it is with all symbols.\n\n\n2. Symbols represent COMMITMENTS that SHAPE human life.\n\nIn the first chapter of TSotT, Severian says that symbols invent us rather\nthan we inventing them.\nUsing the example of the soldier who takes an oath and is given a coin to\nsymbolize that oath, he says they are soldiers at that moment, even\nthough they know nothing of the management of arms. The implication being\nthat they spend the rest of their lives learning the meaning of their\ncommitment.\n\nOver and over this happens to Severian. He commits himself to something\nthat moves him, some image or event becomes a symbol for him, and only\nlater does he learn more about why he was moved, and what his commitments\nmean for his life. He never stops learning as long as the story of his\nlife continues and this story is the unfolding of what his commitments,\nand the symbols that caused them, mean.\n\n\n3. The story of a human life is itself a symbol.\n\nIn the passage below, Severian says that Thecla is a symbol of undeserved\nlove (Grace) for him, and says that the force of her life as a symbol did\nnot disappear when she died anymore then what his own life story\nsymbolizes will disappear when he closes the book he is writing. So the\nlives of people are symbols of something that continues to exist even after\nthey are gone. The great question he ponders, is what these symbols mean\nin and of themselves, apart from their expression in the lives of human\nbeings\n\n“If Thecla had symbolized love of which I felt myself undeserving, as I\nknow now that she did, then did her symbolic force disappear when I locked\nthe door of her cell behind me” That would be like saying that the writing\nof this book, over which I have labored for so many watches, will vanish in\na blur of vermillion when I close it for the last time and dispatch it to\nthe eternal library maintained by the old Ultan.\nThe great question then, that I pondered as I watched the floating island\nwith longing eyes and chafed at my bonds and cursed the hetman in my heart,\nis that of determining what these symbols mean in and of themselves. We are\nlike children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but\none, and a sword in the last. *" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T11:49:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your observation on Commitments that Shape human life contributes\nfruitfully to a discussion of Wolfe's rendering of 'predestination and\nfreewill' (a major thematic thread of his whole Solar Cycle).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Bill Burgess wrote:\n*In response to the previous thread inquiring into the meaning of the\nthorn in the claw and what all other symbols, fangs, talons, etc., this\nmight possibly allude to, I thought I’d start a new thread in order to\nsolicit general thoughts, as well as to give my own, as to what symbols\nmean for Wolfe.\n\nI don’t mean this thread to be about any particular symbol(s), but an\ninquiry into what symbology itself is. Of course we’ll have to use\nindividual symbols as examples, but that will be only to elucidate how\nWolfe uses symbols in general rather than to inquire into what a specific\nsymbol means.\n\nForgive me if all I say is well known stuff from this list. I’m brand new\nto this mailing list and have not read through the archives at all, nor\n have I read any scholarly works on Wolfe; I’ve only read the five books\ncomprising the Book of the New Sun.\n\nWith that, here are some of my own observations with support from the\ntext of TBotNS\n\n1. Symbols REPRESENT human life.\n\n*\n*That is to say, that the story of an individual human beings? life, a\nparticular group of human beings lives, or human life in general, can\nall be represented, in various ways, by various symbols. This means that\na symbol can no more be exhaustively defined then a human being or\nhumanity can be.\n\nIn the text, in the very first paragraph, Severian remembers the wisps\nof river fog threading the spikes in the locked gate like mountain paths\nand this image is for him a SYMBOL of his exile.\n\nThen after four books, at the very end of TCotA, he tells us that he has\ncarried us, his readers, from\n\n“gate to gate -- from the locked and fog shrouded gate of the necropolis,\n to the cloud racked gate we call the sky, the gate that shall lead me, as\nI hope, beyond the nearer stars”.\n\nSo, from the locked gate of the graveyard to the gate of Hope -- which\nis as wide open as the sky. Thus Wolfe expresses his Christianity, but I\ndigress; this isn’t really my point in citing these passages.\n\nWe know that the locked graveyard gate symbolizes Severian’s exile from\nthe guild, but we also know, by the way this is expressed, that Severian\nsees that exile as a symbol of an even larger Exile, the one that will end\non the other side of the sky gate.\n\nThe story of his life is Exile. But we could go on forever about what\nthis means without ever exhausting its meaning and could probably find\nsomething in every chapter/episode of all four of these books which would\nadd to what Exile means. And whatever we’d find, it is all contained in\nthis one symbol: a locked graveyard gate with fog wisping in it.\nSo it is with all symbols.\n\n\n2. Symbols represent COMMITMENTS that SHAPE human life.\n\nIn the first chapter of TSotT, Severian says that symbols invent us rather\nthan we inventing them.\nUsing the example of the soldier who takes an oath and is given a coin to\nsymbolize that oath, he says they are soldiers at that moment, even\nthough they know nothing of the management of arms. The implication being\nthat they spend the rest of their lives learning the meaning of their\ncommitment.\n\nOver and over this happens to Severian. He commits himself to something\nthat moves him, some image or event becomes a symbol for him, and only\nlater does he learn more about why he was moved, and what his commitments\nmean for his life. He never stops learning as long as the story of his\nlife continues and this story is the unfolding of what his commitments,\nand the symbols that caused them, mean.\n\n\n3. The story of a human life is itself a symbol.\n\nIn the passage below, Severian says that Thecla is a symbol of undeserved\nlove (Grace) for him, and says that the force of her life as a symbol did\nnot disappear when she died anymore then what his own life story\nsymbolizes will disappear when he closes the book he is writing. So the\nlives of people are symbols of something that continues to exist even after\nthey are gone. The great question he ponders, is what these symbols mean\nin and of themselves, apart from their expression in the lives of human\nbeings\n\n“If Thecla had symbolized love of which I felt myself undeserving, as I\nknow now that she did, then did her symbolic force disappear when I locked\nthe door of her cell behind me” That would be like saying that the writing\nof this book, over which I have labored for so many watches, will vanish in\na blur of vermillion when I close it for the last time and dispatch it to\nthe eternal library maintained by the old Ultan.\nThe great question then, that I pondered as I watched the floating island\nwith longing eyes and chafed at my bonds and cursed the hetman in my heart,\nis that of determining what these symbols mean in and of themselves. We are\nlike children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but\none, and a sword in the last. *\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "the badger", "address": "viconian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-23T13:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a worthy topic. You'll probably want to re-read the brief passage in Shadow (I think) where Severian talks about the three levels of meaning that are embedded in every event - I'm sure someone here can give the page reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2012, at 6:28 AM, \"Bill Burgess\" wrote:\n\nI don’t mean this thread to be about any particular symbol(s), but an inquiry into what symbology itself is. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-25T23:07:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is interesting. Being new to the list, I haven't read those\ndiscussions.\n\nI'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think Severian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path. For example, the\ncompassionate decisions which lead to his exile, or decisions every step of\nthe way that could have made his story completely different. He could\nhave sold the claw immediately for a profit for example.\n\nNor is there anything in the story that would lead us to believe that his\nchoices were all optimal in what forces outside him had chosen him for.\n\nIt seems Severian's identity consists in the choices he makes. His being\nchosen also consists in the choices he makes in the sense that his being\nchosen was conditioned by those choices rather then the other way around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nYour observation on Commitments that Shape human life contributes\nfruitfully to a discussion of Wolfe's rendering of 'predestination and\nfreewill' (a major thematic thread of his whole Solar Cycle).\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Bill Burgess wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*In response to the previous thread inquiring into the meaning of the\nthorn in the claw and what all other symbols, fangs, talons, etc., this\nmight possibly allude to, I thought I’d start a new thread in order to\nsolicit general thoughts, as well as to give my own, as to what symbols\nmean for Wolfe.\n\nI don’t mean this thread to be about any particular symbol(s), but an\ninquiry into what symbology itself is. Of course we’ll have to use\nindividual symbols as examples, but that will be only to elucidate how\nWolfe uses symbols in general rather than to inquire into what a specific\nsymbol means.\n\nForgive me if all I say is well known stuff from this list. I’m brand\nnew to this mailing list and have not read through the archives at all,\n nor have I read any scholarly works on Wolfe; I’ve only read the five\nbooks comprising the Book of the New Sun.\n\nWith that, here are some of my own observations with support from the\ntext of TBotNS\n\n1. Symbols REPRESENT human life.\n\n*\n*That is to say, that the story of an individual human beings? life,\n a particular group of human beings lives, or human life in general, can\nall be represented, in various ways, by various symbols. This means that\na symbol can no more be exhaustively defined then a human being or\nhumanity can be.\n\nIn the text, in the very first paragraph, Severian remembers the wisps\nof river fog threading the spikes in the locked gate like mountain paths\nand this image is for him a SYMBOL of his exile.\n\nThen after four books, at the very end of TCotA, he tells us that he\nhas carried us, his readers, from\n\n“gate to gate -- from the locked and fog shrouded gate of the necropolis,\n to the cloud racked gate we call the sky, the gate that shall lead me, as\nI hope, beyond the nearer stars”.\n\nSo, from the locked gate of the graveyard to the gate of Hope -- which\nis as wide open as the sky. Thus Wolfe expresses his Christianity, but I\ndigress; this isn’t really my point in citing these passages.\n\nWe know that the locked graveyard gate symbolizes Severian’s exile from\nthe guild, but we also know, by the way this is expressed, that Severian\nsees that exile as a symbol of an even larger Exile, the one that will end\non the other side of the sky gate.\n\nThe story of his life is Exile. But we could go on forever about what\nthis means without ever exhausting its meaning and could probably find\nsomething in every chapter/episode of all four of these books which would\nadd to what Exile means. And whatever we’d find, it is all contained in\nthis one symbol: a locked graveyard gate with fog wisping in it.\nSo it is with all symbols.\n\n\n2. Symbols represent COMMITMENTS that SHAPE human life.\n\nIn the first chapter of TSotT, Severian says that symbols invent us\nrather than we inventing them.\nUsing the example of the soldier who takes an oath and is given a coin to\nsymbolize that oath, he says they are soldiers at that moment, even\nthough they know nothing of the management of arms. The implication being\nthat they spend the rest of their lives learning the meaning of their\ncommitment.\n\nOver and over this happens to Severian. He commits himself to\nsomething that moves him, some image or event becomes a symbol for him,\n and only later does he learn more about why he was moved, and what his\ncommitments mean for his life. He never stops learning as long as the\nstory of his life continues and this story is the unfolding of what his\ncommitments, and the symbols that caused them, mean.\n\n\n3. The story of a human life is itself a symbol.\n\nIn the passage below, Severian says that Thecla is a symbol of\nundeserved love (Grace) for him, and says that the force of her life as a\nsymbol did not disappear when she died anymore then what his own life\n story symbolizes will disappear when he closes the book he is writing.\n So the lives of people are symbols of something that continues to exist\neven after they are gone. The great question he ponders, is what these\nsymbols mean in and of themselves, apart from their expression in the lives\nof human beings\n\n“If Thecla had symbolized love of which I felt myself undeserving, as I\nknow now that she did, then did her symbolic force disappear when I locked\nthe door of her cell behind me” That would be like saying that the writing\nof this book, over which I have labored for so many watches, will vanish in\na blur of vermillion when I close it for the last time and dispatch it to\nthe eternal library maintained by the old Ultan.\nThe great question then, that I pondered as I watched the floating island\nwith longing eyes and chafed at my bonds and cursed the hetman in my heart,\nis that of determining what these symbols mean in and of themselves. We are\nlike children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but\none, and a sword in the last. *\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T11:33:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some passages struck me as flirting with some sort of determinism (even if\ncompatibilist), but I can't recall where offhand. Does anyone see any\nevidence of *libertarian* freewill in BotNS? I think I agree with Bill's\nanalysis of Severian's choices being central to shaping the turnings of his\nstory, which does look more like libertarian freewill than anything else to\nme. If the more determinist notions do exist in the text as I recall, then\nI assume what we have is a wrestling between the two philosophies in the\nseries rather than a clear espousal or embodiment of one over the other.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:\nThis is interesting. Being new to the list, I haven't read those\ndiscussions.\n\nI'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think Severian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path. For example, the\ncompassionate decisions which lead to his exile, or decisions every step of\nthe way that could have made his story completely different. He could\nhave sold the claw immediately for a profit for example.\n\nNor is there anything in the story that would lead us to believe that his\nchoices were all optimal in what forces outside him had chosen him for.\n\nIt seems Severian's identity consists in the choices he makes. His being\nchosen also consists in the choices he makes in the sense that his being\nchosen was conditioned by those choices rather then the other way around.\n\n\nOn Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your observation on Commitments that Shape human life contributes\nfruitfully to a discussion of Wolfe's rendering of 'predestination and\nfreewill' (a major thematic thread of his whole Solar Cycle).\n\n-DOJP\n\n On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Bill Burgess wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " *In response to the previous thread inquiring into the meaning of the\nthorn in the claw and what all other symbols, fangs, talons, etc., this\nmight possibly allude to, I thought I’d start a new thread in order to\nsolicit general thoughts, as well as to give my own, as to what symbols\nmean for Wolfe.\n\nI don’t mean this thread to be about any particular symbol(s), but an\ninquiry into what symbology itself is. Of course we’ll have to use\nindividual symbols as examples, but that will be only to elucidate how\nWolfe uses symbols in general rather than to inquire into what a specific\nsymbol means.\n\nForgive me if all I say is well known stuff from this list. I’m brand\nnew to this mailing list and have not read through the archives at all,\n nor have I read any scholarly works on Wolfe; I’ve only read the five\nbooks comprising the Book of the New Sun.\n\nWith that, here are some of my own observations with support from the\ntext of TBotNS\n\n1. Symbols REPRESENT human life.\n\n*\n*That is to say, that the story of an individual human beings? life,\n a particular group of human beings lives, or human life in general, can\nall be represented, in various ways, by various symbols. This means that\na symbol can no more be exhaustively defined then a human being or\nhumanity can be.\n\nIn the text, in the very first paragraph, Severian remembers the\nwisps of river fog threading the spikes in the locked gate like mountain\npaths and this image is for him a SYMBOL of his exile.\n\nThen after four books, at the very end of TCotA, he tells us that he\nhas carried us, his readers, from\n\n“gate to gate -- from the locked and fog shrouded gate of the\nnecropolis, to the cloud racked gate we call the sky, the gate that shall\nlead me, as I hope, beyond the nearer stars”.\n\nSo, from the locked gate of the graveyard to the gate of Hope --\n which is as wide open as the sky. Thus Wolfe expresses his\nChristianity, but I digress; this isn’t really my point in citing these\npassages.\n\nWe know that the locked graveyard gate symbolizes Severian’s exile\n from the guild, but we also know, by the way this is expressed, that\nSeverian sees that exile as a symbol of an even larger Exile, the one that\nwill end on the other side of the sky gate.\n\nThe story of his life is Exile. But we could go on forever about what\nthis means without ever exhausting its meaning and could probably find\nsomething in every chapter/episode of all four of these books which would\nadd to what Exile means. And whatever we’d find, it is all contained in\nthis one symbol: a locked graveyard gate with fog wisping in it.\nSo it is with all symbols.\n\n\n2. Symbols represent COMMITMENTS that SHAPE human life.\n\nIn the first chapter of TSotT, Severian says that symbols invent us\nrather than we inventing them.\nUsing the example of the soldier who takes an oath and is given a coin\nto symbolize that oath, he says they are soldiers at that moment, even\nthough they know nothing of the management of arms. The implication being\nthat they spend the rest of their lives learning the meaning of their\ncommitment.\n\nOver and over this happens to Severian. He commits himself to\nsomething that moves him, some image or event becomes a symbol for him,\n and only later does he learn more about why he was moved, and what his\ncommitments mean for his life. He never stops learning as long as the\nstory of his life continues and this story is the unfolding of what his\ncommitments, and the symbols that caused them, mean.\n\n\n3. The story of a human life is itself a symbol.\n\nIn the passage below, Severian says that Thecla is a symbol of\nundeserved love (Grace) for him, and says that the force of her life as a\nsymbol did not disappear when she died anymore then what his own life\n story symbolizes will disappear when he closes the book he is writing.\n So the lives of people are symbols of something that continues to exist\neven after they are gone. The great question he ponders, is what these\nsymbols mean in and of themselves, apart from their expression in the lives\nof human beings\n\n“If Thecla had symbolized love of which I felt myself undeserving, as I\nknow now that she did, then did her symbolic force disappear when I locked\nthe door of her cell behind me” That would be like saying that the writing\nof this book, over which I have labored for so many watches, will vanish in\na blur of vermillion when I close it for the last time and dispatch it to\nthe eternal library maintained by the old Ultan.\nThe great question then, that I pondered as I watched the floating\nisland with longing eyes and chafed at my bonds and cursed the hetman in my\nheart, is that of determining what these symbols mean in and of themselves.\nWe are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter\nbut one, and a sword in the last. *\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-11-26T11:55:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nSome passages struck me as flirting with some sort of determinism (even if\ncompatibilist), but I can't recall where offhand. Does anyone see any\nevidence of *libertarian* freewill in BotNS? I think I agree with Bill's\nanalysis of Severian's choices being central to shaping the turnings of his\nstory, which does look more like libertarian freewill than anything else to\nme. If the more determinist notions do exist in the text as I recall, then\nI assume what we have is a wrestling between the two philosophies in the\nseries rather than a clear espousal or embodiment of one over the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearest in his treatment of the chems. That is, you may not necessarily \nown even your thoughts, but there are still occasions where you get the \nopportunity to make meaningful decisions, and making the correct one can \nlead to further expansion of your freedom. And in _Soldier of Sidon_, if \nyou have arete (are virtuous), you choose to be the best slave that you \ncan be.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T13:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearest in his treatment of the chems. That is, you may not necessarily\nown even your thoughts, but there are still occasions where you get the\nopportunity to make meaningful decisions, and making the correct one can\nlead to further expansion of your freedom. And in _Soldier of Sidon_, if\nyou have arete (are virtuous), you choose to be the best slave that you can\nbe.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\nIn that case, some of the things chems do in Long and Short Suns become\neven more poignant (e.g. Marble and her fella creating Olivine together).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nSome passages struck me as flirting with some sort of determinism (even if\ncompatibilist), but I can't recall where offhand. Does anyone see any\nevidence of *libertarian* freewill in BotNS? I think I agree with Bill's\nanalysis of Severian's choices being central to shaping the turnings of\nhis\nstory, which does look more like libertarian freewill than anything else\nto\nme. If the more determinist notions do exist in the text as I recall,\nthen\nI assume what we have is a wrestling between the two philosophies in the\nseries rather than a clear espousal or embodiment of one over the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clearest in his treatment of the chems. That is, you may not necessarily\nown even your thoughts, but there are still occasions where you get the\nopportunity to make meaningful decisions, and making the correct one can\nlead to further expansion of your freedom. And in _Soldier of Sidon_, if\nyou have arete (are virtuous), you choose to be the best slave that you can\nbe.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T14:05:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think Severian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by Severian's/Wolfe's own \nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their \ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully have it if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices? \n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly religious must \nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the creation of an \nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would irrevocably lead \nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin he received from \nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an attachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his guild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting and what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US military uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear in Short Sun. I think \nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like beings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have symbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent powerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T14:23:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\n\nWell, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of God\n(e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of creatures\nis thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject making his\nor her own meaningful and actual choice. As I say, I suspect Wolfe is\ngiving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar Cycle\nrather than simply embodying one or the other. (As does Catholic teaching\nin general, I believe.)\n\nIn terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point\nfairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism\n(compatibilist). The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps\npoint in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction. What I'm\nwondering is whether there are *symbols* in the work that image forth\nlibertarian notions. Anyone?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think\nSeverian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by\nSeverian's/Wolfe's own\nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they\ninvent us; we are their\ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully have\nit if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices?\n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the\nillusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin he\nreceived from\nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an\nattachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his\nguild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting\nand what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US\nmilitary uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear\nin Short Sun. I think\nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like\nbeings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have\nsymbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent\npowerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T16:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a passage somewhere where Silk wonders whether \"free will\" is just\nthe privilege of consenting to what is going to happen anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nClearest in his treatment of the chems. That is, you may not necessarily\nown even your thoughts, but there are still occasions where you get the\nopportunity to make meaningful decisions, and making the correct one can\nlead to further expansion of your freedom. And in _Soldier of Sidon_, if\nyou have arete (are virtuous), you choose to be the best slave that you can\nbe.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\nIn that case, some of the things chems do in Long and Short Suns become\neven more poignant (e.g. Marble and her fella creating Olivine together).\n\n-DOJP\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Duffy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nSome passages struck me as flirting with some sort of determinism (even if\ncompatibilist), but I can't recall where offhand. Does anyone see any\nevidence of *libertarian* freewill in BotNS? I think I agree with Bill's\nanalysis of Severian's choices being central to shaping the turnings of\nhis\nstory, which does look more like libertarian freewill than anything else\nto\nme. If the more determinist notions do exist in the text as I recall,\nthen\nI assume what we have is a wrestling between the two philosophies in the\nseries rather than a clear espousal or embodiment of one over the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Clearest in his treatment of the chems. That is, you may not necessarily\nown even your thoughts, but there are still occasions where you get the\nopportunity to make meaningful decisions, and making the correct one can\nlead to further expansion of your freedom. And in _Soldier of Sidon_, if\nyou have arete (are virtuous), you choose to be the best slave that you can\nbe.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "athornton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T16:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think maybe there's a third principle to add to my Two Keys To Wolfe, but\nI think they're all articulations of the same ur-theme, which I haven't\nfound a nice concise aphorism. I'll put the new one first:\n\n1) Symbols are Real\n2) You Are What You Eat\n3) You Become What You Imitate\n\n1 and 3 are the same thing in different guises, I think, and 2 is a special\ncase of 3, maybe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nWe need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\n\nWell, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of God\n(e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of creatures\nis thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject making his\nor her own meaningful and actual choice. As I say, I suspect Wolfe is\ngiving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar Cycle\nrather than simply embodying one or the other. (As does Catholic teaching\nin general, I believe.)\n\nIn terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point\nfairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism\n(compatibilist). The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps\npoint in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction. What I'm\nwondering is whether there are *symbols* in the work that image forth\nlibertarian notions. Anyone?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think\nSeverian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by\nSeverian's/Wolfe's own\nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they\ninvent us; we are their\ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully\nhave it if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices?\n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the\nillusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin\nhe received from\nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an\nattachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his\nguild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting\nand what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US\nmilitary uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear\nin Short Sun. I think\nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like\nbeings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have\nsymbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent\npowerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5CC51CC5A2FB43E1AC7198F9E1E510AD@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T17:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some passages struck me as flirting with some sort of determinism\n(even if compatibilist), but I can't recall where offhand. Does anyone\nsee any evidence of *libertarian* freewill in BotNS? I think I agree with\nBill's analysis of Severian's choices being central to shaping the \nturnings\nof his story, which does look more like libertarian freewill than anything\nelse to me. If the more determinist notions do exist in the text as I\nrecall, then I assume what we have is a wrestling between the two\nphilosophies in the series rather than a clear espousal or embodiment\nof one over the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have a universe containing time travel with a single 'preferred' history \nthat becomes somehow 'realer' than alternate and still substantially evolved \nhistories such as that of Master Ash, who faded away after saying that he \nsuspected his universe had a lower probability. [It is a similar model to \nthat seen on Star Trek and many other series.] Of course we cannot be \ncertain that Ash was right; Severian still thought he could feel his \npresence after he faded.\n\nInsofar as there is a preferred history as distinct from a pure multiverse \nwith numerous equally valid histories, time travel necessarily involves some \ndegree of determinism. But one can argue that Wolfe avoids dwelling on \nthis, and of course Christian theology has wrangled over the issue for two \nmillennia without coming to agreement.\n\nA universe with a preferred history has the advantage of being \nscientifically compatible with some kind of Judeo-Christian deity who can be \nseen as selecting the best of all possible histories at the end of time, \nalong the lines of Teilhard's Omega Point. I don't know whether Wolfe was \nthinking along those lines. Dan Simmons explored similar concepts a decade \nlater in the Hyperion series, though in the meantime Frank J. Tipler had \nwritten on the subject.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T18:48:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<5CC51CC5A2FB43E1AC7198F9E1E510AD@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: There's a passage somewhere where Silk wonders whether \"free will\" is just\nthe privilege of consenting to what is going to happen anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is in alignment with my own perspective of things. Truly free and independent choice of action\nis necessarily a limitation on an all-powerful God's power.\n\nConversely, the more aware a person becomes of God's Plan the less freedom of action he/she has.\n\nMoreover, a perfect God has no choices at all. There are no forks in the road for God because every \nchoice has a \"best\" solution and thus God's path is pre-determined, single-track and perfect.\n\nThus free-will..I won't call it an illusion. But it is something which can exist only from a human\nperspective, not a divine perspective. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T18:50:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or to put it differently: Both God and Man are absolutely free to act in\naccordance with their nature. However, that nature constrains their\nchoices...\n\nEinstein once pondered, \"I wonder if God had any choice in making the\nuniverse.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: There's a passage somewhere where Silk wonders\nwhether \"free will\" is just\nthe privilege of consenting to what is going to happen anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is in alignment with my own perspective of things. Truly free and\nindependent choice of action\nis necessarily a limitation on an all-powerful God's power.\n\nConversely, the more aware a person becomes of God's Plan the less freedom\nof action he/she has.\n\nMoreover, a perfect God has no choices at all. There are no forks in the\nroad for God because every\nchoice has a \"best\" solution and thus God's path is pre-determined,\nsingle-track and perfect.\n\nThus free-will..I won't call it an illusion. But it is something which can\nexist only from a human\nperspective, not a divine perspective.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T20:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<5CC51CC5A2FB43E1AC7198F9E1E510AD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A universe with a preferred history has the advantage of being\nscientifically compatible with some kind of Judeo-Christian deity who can\nbe seen as selecting the best of all possible histories at the end of time,\nalong the lines of Teilhard's Omega Point. I don't know whether Wolfe was\nthinking along those lines.\n\n\nHm. I still haven't familiarised myself with Teilhard's thought, but what\nyou describe there sounds a bit like what I understand to be the Molinist\nor Middle Knowledge account of election and freewill. I wonder whether that\ncould 'solve' the time travel element (making it work with some amount of\nlibertarian freedom of choice) and whether Wolfe might *possibly* have had\nsuch a thing in mind? (Molina was a Jesuit, so...?)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nA universe with a preferred history has the advantage of being\nscientifically compatible with some kind of Judeo-Christian deity who can\nbe seen as selecting the best of all possible histories at the end of time,\nalong the lines of Teilhard's Omega Point. I don't know whether Wolfe was\nthinking along those lines." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T20:58:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, fellas, I can't get into it now, but there are PhD theologians out\nthere who see it differently - it's not as cut and dried as you gents are\nmaking it sound. Omnipotence and Providence might interact with finite\nhuman (libertarian) freedom in very rich ways that are not easy to pin down\nin an 'if this, then that' or 1,2,3 format.\n\nE.g. since 1) God's all powerful and 2) our choices would limit his power,\ntherefore, 3) we have no real (libertarian) choices - that syllogism can be\nchallenged by, say, better defining premise 1 or rejecting premise 2 as it\nstands, or even challenging that the conclusion really follows.\n\nBut I really should probably stop talking about this issue until I better\nfamiliarise myself with relevant passages in the Cycle on freedom and\ndeterminism - there's some pretty potent stuff in there as I recall.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOr to put it differently: Both God and Man are absolutely free to act in\naccordance with their nature. However, that nature constrains their\nchoices...\n\nEinstein once pondered, \"I wonder if God had any choice in making the\nuniverse.\"\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: There's a passage somewhere where Silk wonders\nwhether \"free will\" is just\nthe privilege of consenting to what is going to happen anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is in alignment with my own perspective of things. Truly free and\nindependent choice of action\nis necessarily a limitation on an all-powerful God's power.\n\nConversely, the more aware a person becomes of God's Plan the less\nfreedom of action he/she has.\n\nMoreover, a perfect God has no choices at all. There are no forks in the\nroad for God because every\nchoice has a \"best\" solution and thus God's path is pre-determined,\nsingle-track and perfect.\n\nThus free-will..I won't call it an illusion. But it is something which\ncan exist only from a human\nperspective, not a divine perspective.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T21:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The significance of symbols is nothing more then the human commitments they\nrepresent.\nSymbols shape us because our commitments shape us.\nJust as a symbol represents knowledge which is not completed even after a\nlifetime of learning, so our commitments represent the fact that there is\nmore to us then what we know -- and as our lives unfold according to our\ncommitments, so does our knowledge.\n\nFurthermore, just as the commonwealth reconstitutes itself every morning\nin the shrill tones of it's own clarions, we reconstitute ourselves every\nmorning in our commitments. My wedding ring is only as significant as my\ncommitment, and my commitment must reconstitute itself every morning (or\nthere were times, when I was a younger and better looking man). Even if a\ncommitment is broken, one often has second chances.\n\nSee how often Severian breaks what one would assume would be the most\ndominant commitment in his life; the guild. It seems that few situations\ncould be constructed to have a more determining factor on the commitments\nan individual makes in life then that of the guild on its apprentices, and\nyet he breaks his oath repeatedly and vows not to do so again.\n\nOf course, broken commitments can have as much influence on life as kept\ncommitments, and so a symbol retains it's significance either way, but it\nis a different significance.\n\nFree will is to determinism as up is to down or east is to west, we are\ndetermined by what we choose and one could not exist without the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think\nSeverian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by\nSeverian's/Wolfe's own\nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they\ninvent us; we are their\ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully have\nit if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices?\n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the\nillusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin he\nreceived from\nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an\nattachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his\nguild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting\nand what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US\nmilitary uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear\nin Short Sun. I think\nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like\nbeings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have\nsymbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent\npowerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Burgess", "address": "whburth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T01:16:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The medium is the message?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nI think maybe there's a third principle to add to my Two Keys To Wolfe,\nbut I think they're all articulations of the same ur-theme, which I haven't\nfound a nice concise aphorism. I'll put the new one first:\n\n1) Symbols are Real\n2) You Are What You Eat\n3) You Become What You Imitate\n\n1 and 3 are the same thing in different guises, I think, and 2 is a\nspecial case of 3, maybe.\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly\nreligious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\n\nWell, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of\nGod (e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of\ncreatures is thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject\nmaking his or her own meaningful and actual choice. As I say, I suspect\nWolfe is giving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar\nCycle rather than simply embodying one or the other. (As does Catholic\nteaching in general, I believe.)\n\nIn terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point\nfairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism\n(compatibilist). The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps\npoint in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction. What I'm\nwondering is whether there are *symbols* in the work that image forth\nlibertarian notions. Anyone?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think\nSeverian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by\nSeverian's/Wolfe's own\nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they\ninvent us; we are their\ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully\nhave it if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices?\n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the\nillusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the\ndevoutly religious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the\ncreation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would\nirrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin\nhe received from\nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an\nattachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his\nguild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself\nadopting and what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US\nmilitary uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to\nwear in Short Sun. I think\nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like\nbeings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have\nsymbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent\npowerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<320B9B86-2F0F-404C-B1CB-05DC4FF1E936@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T02:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, I always took the \"symbols invented us\" line to do more with basic human instincts (ie. faith, love, sin, greed, the vices and virtues, etc.).\n\nTake the token given to a soldier symbolizing their initiation into an army for instance. Is the coin not just a symbol of war? And isn't war/fighting something we as humans are born with? And even after birth, aren't we conditioned by these human tendencies?\n\nI think the word \"symbol\" becomes easier to reconcile in this context when it is clear what the symbol in fact symbolizes in the first place. Then we simply have to accept the fact that humans did not invent those source things (god, hate, love, war, sex, etc.). Those things are what make us human.\n\n...ryan\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:\nThe medium is the message?\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think maybe there's a third principle to add to my Two Keys To Wolfe, but I think they're all articulations of the same ur-theme, which I haven't found a nice concise aphorism. I'll put the new one first:\n\n1) Symbols are Real\n2) You Are What You Eat\n3) You Become What You Imitate\n\n1 and 3 are the same thing in different guises, I think, and 2 is a special case of 3, maybe.\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly religious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the creation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would irrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n \n \nWell, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of God (e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of creatures is thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject making his or her own meaningful and actual choice. As I say, I suspect Wolfe is giving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar Cycle rather than simply embodying one or the other. (As does Catholic teaching in general, I believe.) \n \nIn terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point fairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism (compatibilist). The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps point in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction. What I'm wondering is whether there are symbols in the work that image forth libertarian notions. Anyone?\n \n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think Severian was not\nfreely making the decisions which lead him on his path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by Severian's/Wolfe's own\nline that \"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their\ncreatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\".\n\nThis would appear to fly in the face of \"free will\". How can we fully have it if \"symbols\"\ncan control and define our choices?\n\nI think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the illusion(?) of free\nwill to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly religious must\nsomehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the creation of an\nomniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would irrevocably lead\nto every single micro-choice we end up making in life.\n\nThe quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin he received from\nVodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an attachment to Vodalus\nand the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his guild in regard to\nVodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.\n\n(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting and what choices\nhe ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US military uniform and gun)\n\nI wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear in Short Sun. I think\nwe readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like beings to possess him or\ninfluence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have symbolic meaning. Perhaps\na practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent powerful forces beyond our\nunderstanding.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T14:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<320B9B86-2F0F-404C-B1CB-05DC4FF1E936@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: I think the word \"symbol\" becomes easier to reconcile in this context \nwhen it is clear what the symbol in fact symbolizes in the first place. Then we \nsimply have to accept the fact that humans did not invent those source things \n(god, hate, love, war, sex, etc.). Those things are what make us human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can concur with this view. But what DID invent those source things if not humans?\nEvolution? God? Are these words for the same thing (in Wolfe's view)? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }