{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6312", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6312, "subject": "Pirate Freedom notes", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2012-11-25T06:13:24+00:00", "last": "2012-11-27T23:11:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-25T06:13:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Finally got around to reading it. Quick read, reasonably entertaining.\nSadly, I find myself even less interested than _The Sorcerer's House_\nin figuring out the secret - but I am more interested, and I enjoyed\n_Pirate Freedom_ more, than _An Evil Guest_. Faint praise, perhaps.\nReading through the old email threads to see what I missed, I'm not\nsure about some of the ideas floating around.\n\nFirst, where's this stuff about him being cloned coming from? The one\nbit of evidence I've seen is a quote to the effect that \"my father\nmade me\"; I can't find this in my _Pirate Freedom_ EPUB (but FBReader\nseems to have buggy search so this may not count). But at face value,\nthis seems completely unconvincing to me: he's a *Mafia* guy! All \"my\nfather made me\" means is that he's a \"made man\", as one would expect\nof the son of a big Mafia figure. Chris even says at one point to a\nnew pirate something to the effect 'now you're a made man\". Presumably\nno one thinks Chris just zapped him with some tailored RNA viruses...\n\"Half-human monster\" is more promising, but in context, there's no\nmention of simply human: \"The artists of the Middle Ages painted\nallegories, we say. What really happened was that they saw more\nclearly than we do, and painted what they saw angels and devils,\nbeasts, and half-human monsters like me.\" The artists were painting\nclones? Or is this just more Christian thought a la Pope? The best\nline is \"I am taller than most people my father told me once he got me\nengineered that way and I was taller than he was by quite a bit.\" but\nheight has been known to be hereditable since Galton and a fair number\nof genes have already been identified responsible for variance, so\neven simple embryo selection (make multiple embryos, sequence the\ngenomes of each, implant the best-scoring one) would work for that.\n\nSecond, there's something really weird about the lack of attention\npaid to the timeslips. Chris doesn't even explicitly mention anything\nabout time travel until like pg 80 where he says it just sank in\n(?!!?!), and the implication is that the timeslip happened long before\nhe left for the entire monastery: the enrolled kids are, after the\nclosure of the school is announced, implied to be different from the\nprevious kids, and at some point Chris notices no one has\nwristwatches. Now, this is the same Chris who after wandering around\ncolonial age Cuba and sailing ships still hasn't noticed what time\nperiod he is in, so the safe assumption is that the wristwatches\ndisappeared when the school closed. So the entire monastery has been\ntimeslipped for many years, and we are told that some of the monks go\nout to hear confessions each week, so the timeslip could not have gone\nunnoticed for more than a week at worst. So what's going on here with\nthe monastery? The lack of contact is curious, as Chris points out and\nas is emphasized when we learn that Chris thinks his house is so close\nthat he'll just walk there - he didn't sneak out at any point, or have\na vacation or break? (His father can't visit him, but nothing is said\nof Chris visiting his father.)\n\nHis obliviousness and rationalizings are supposedly not that: he\nclaims to pump the farmer he meets with the horse, but why didn't he\njust turn around and go back to the monastery and ask 'hey guys what\nhappened?' He also then rationalizes blatantly: 'And it was not there.\nI decided then that there were two Havanas, or maybe the city had\nchanged its name and this little town had taken it over.' Sure, Chris.\nSure.\n\nHaving read a bunch of theories, I can't say any of them seem\nespecially plausible. No one has a good explanation of Jaime's\nself-immolation or disappearance, Valentin & dog's murder, the\napparent foreknowledge of Lesage, Chris's father (if he is a later\nChris, why is he much shorter than his 'son'?) or the monastery's\nbehavior. Nothing that ties them all together. It's a little\nfrustrating, since once the various points are identified it feels\nlike there should be an obvious answer.\n\nI feel a little like _The Sorcerer's House_or _An Evil Guest_ here: by\nthe end we've identified what the solution ought to look like (another\ntime traveler acting at various points in the story / Bax killing his\ntwin and usurping his identity / Cassie going to Woldercon and maybe\ntime-traveling herself), but we don't know how to go beyond that and\nmake the whole thing fall into a satisfying whole (who and how and why\n/ how the letters were mistakenly or deliberately rearranged and the\ndeceptions before the final deception-letter / what Cassie actually\ndid).\n\n-----\n\nOn a sidenote, the speech about the many Church sex abuse scandals is\ndisgusting. I don't take this as Wolfe deliberately giving us evidence\nof Chris being a depraved monster, it reads too sincerely and is\nconsistent with the crankery I've documented elsewhere (although I\nfully expect someone to reply saying 'no, don't confuse the text with\nthe author, let's interpret it as charitably as possible', just like\nthey did with the *non*fiction predictions I posted); the leadup to\nhis speech is itself misleading and slanted, completely ignoring the\ncentral enabling coverup role the Church played for decades upon end.\nThere is no reason to not mention the Church's role, since the Bishop\nis not otherwise portrayed sympathetically and mentioning it would\nboth be factually accurate and continue characterizing the Bishop...\nThe setup is also, shall we say, curious for making the victims\nadolescents and not younger still as they so often were. It's also a\nlittle strange that Wolfe expects the 'Communists to fall'. Even when\nthis was being written, Cuba's government had been substantially\nliberalizing and privatizing. There's pretty much no reason to expect\nthem to 'fall' as opposed to follow a gradual transition to being,\nlike China, Communist in name-only." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B4CCCC.6020408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T14:23:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/2012 1:13 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn a sidenote, the speech about the many Church sex abuse scandals is\ndisgusting. I don't take this as Wolfe deliberately giving us evidence\nof Chris being a depraved monster, it reads too sincerely and is\nconsistent with the crankery I've documented elsewhere (although I\nfully expect someone to reply saying 'no, don't confuse the text with\nthe author, let's interpret it as charitably as possible', just like\nthey did with the *non*fiction predictions I posted); the leadup to\nhis speech is itself misleading and slanted, completely ignoring the\ncentral enabling coverup role the Church played for decades upon end.\nThere is no reason to not mention the Church's role, since the Bishop\nis not otherwise portrayed sympathetically and mentioning it would\nboth be factually accurate and continue characterizing the Bishop...\nThe setup is also, shall we say, curious for making the victims\nadolescents and not younger still as they so often were. It's also a\nlittle strange that Wolfe expects the 'Communists to fall'. Even when\nthis was being written, Cuba's government had been substantially\nliberalizing and privatizing. There's pretty much no reason to expect\nthem to 'fall' as opposed to follow a gradual transition to being,\nlike China, Communist in name-only." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the mention of Cuba comes across as very odd, a bit like a \n1950s judgement transplanted to the 1990s, or something like \nthat---disconnected and out of place. I took it as a hint to not take \nthe history stuff (aside from timelines) too seriously, since we can't \ntell whether Chris ends up in our own past or in the past of a future \nthat is itself a consciously made-up \"alternate history\" that is not our \nown. That's the best way I can put it.\n\nAs for the Catholic molestation cover-up stuff, I was also alarmed by \nits basic dishonesty. The facts and true extent of the official \nconspiracy were widely known in 2007. One could argue that Chris simply \ndidn't want to \"go there\" or that he himself is blind to true evil, but \ncome on. Chris is a murderer many times over---he should recognize evil \nin others, at least. More likely that Wolfe himself didn't want to \"go \nthere\" but, as you say, not for any good reason. Again, why not bring \ntrue evil into a story about evil? (And Chris himself was not writing in \nthe 1990s, so ... )\n\nOne is forced to at least suspect that Wolfe doesn't get it and doesn't \nwant to. Which would be understandable if also unfortunate and \ndisappointing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354031702.64382.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T15:55:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gwern Branwen " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, where's this stuff about him being cloned coming from? The one\nbit of evidence I've seen is a quote to the effect that \"my father\nmade me\"; I can't find this in my _Pirate Freedom_ EPUB (but FBReader\nseems to have buggy search so this may not count). But at face value,\nthis seems completely unconvincing to me: he's a *Mafia* guy! All \"my\nfather made me\" means is that he's a \"made man\", as one would expect\nof the son of a big Mafia figure. Chris even says at one point to a\nnew pirate something to the effect 'now you're a made man\". Presumably\nno one thinks Chris just zapped him with some tailored RNA viruses..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Chris is not a \"made man\" in the Mafia sense, as I understand it. ?He's\nnever been part of the Mafia. ?But I don't remember him saying such a\nthing and it's not at Google Books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Half-human monster\" is more promising, but in context, there's no\nmention of simply human: \"The artists of the Middle Ages painted\nallegories, we say. What really happened was that they saw more\nclearly than we do, and painted what they saw angels and devils,\nbeasts, and half-human monsters like me.\" The artists were painting\nclones? Or is this just more Christian thought a la Pope? The best\nline is \"I am taller than most people my father told me once he got me\nengineered that way and I was taller than he was by quite a bit.\" but\nheight has been known to be hereditable since Galton and a fair number\nof genes have already been identified responsible for variance, so\neven simple embryo selection (make multiple embryos, sequence the\ngenomes of each, implant the best-scoring one) would work for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there was one with the right gene combinations for considerably greater\nheight.\n\nThe other clue that Chris is a clone (or has a genome created from\nscratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother. ?He doesn't\neven say that he's especially tempted to go to New Jersey and see the\nmother he never knew.\n\nHowever, I don't think this is proof." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, there's something really weird about the lack of attention\npaid to the timeslips." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having read a bunch of theories, I can't say any of them seem\nespecially plausible. No one has a good explanation of Jaime's\nself-immolation or disappearance, Valentin & dog's murder, the\napparent foreknowledge of Lesage, Chris's father (if he is a later\nChris, why is he much shorter than his 'son'?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point. ?I think it pretty much settles the question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or the monastery's\nbehavior. Nothing that ties them all together. It's a little\nfrustrating, since once the various points are identified it feels\nlike there should be an obvious answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about that, though.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a sidenote, the speech about the many Church sex abuse scandals is\ndisgusting. I don't take this as Wolfe deliberately giving us evidence\nof Chris being a depraved monster, it reads too sincerely and is\nconsistent with the crankery I've documented elsewhere (although I\nfully expect someone to reply saying 'no, don't confuse the text with\nthe author, let's interpret it as charitably as possible', just like\nthey did with the *non*fiction predictions I posted); the leadup to\nhis speech is itself misleading and slanted, completely ignoring the\ncentral enabling coverup role the Church played for decades upon end.\nThere is no reason to not mention the Church's role, since the Bishop\nis not otherwise portrayed sympathetically and mentioning it would\nboth be factually accurate and continue characterizing the Bishop...\nThe setup is also, shall we say, curious for making the victims\nadolescents and not younger still as they so often were." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just looked at it again, the part I can see at GB, and I read this very\ndifferently from you and David Stockhoff. “Chris makes it clear that\nthere were little girls who were victims too, just not in the cases the\nbishop mentions. ?So we're not being told that all the cases were like\nthe ones in their church. ?(Does this mean, though, that Chris knew\nabout little girls being molested and didn't report it”)\n\nAlso, we've all heard endless condemnation of the molestations and\nthe cover-ups. ?There's no need for either Wolfe or Chris to join in\nthat. ?What Chris does comment on is what's important to him,?namely\nviolence (and non-violence). ?He gives the reader, who already condemns\nthe church for the molestations and cover-ups, an?/additional/ reason\nto condemn it.\n\nBy the way, in our reality, did American Catholic priests teach boys to\n\"act like sheep\"? “Did they discourage fighting even in self-defense”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's also a\nlittle strange that Wolfe expects the 'Communists to fall'. Even when\nthis was being written, Cuba's government had been substantially\nliberalizing and privatizing. There's pretty much no reason to expect\nthem to 'fall' as opposed to follow a gradual transition to being,\nlike China, Communist in name-only." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you describe is certainly the way to bet, but I think there could\nstill be a revolution there, maybe after a hard-line Communist\nreaction. ?It's not too implausible for fiction. ?Also, as David Stockhoff\nsays,?the book may take place in an alternate universe. ?The monorails\ncertainly suggest that, as does genetic engineering if we assume Chris\nis born or decanted not too long after the publication date.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T19:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": "<50B4CCCC.6020408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI agree that the mention of Cuba comes across as very odd, a bit like a\n1950s judgement transplanted to the 1990s, or something like\nthat---disconnected and out of place. I took it as a hint to not take the\nhistory stuff (aside from timelines) too seriously, since we can't tell\nwhether Chris ends up in our own past or in the past of a future that is\nitself a consciously made-up \"alternate history\" that is not our own. That's\nthe best way I can put it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's charitable, yes. If we go by Thalassocrat's timeline, he\nclaimed IIRC, that Chris was born in 2007?\n\nIf he really was, then the monorails are not very strong evidence of\nbeing in an alternate world since there's still time for monorails to\ngo up depending on how late he's talking of them, or Wolfe back in\n2007 could've been optimistic about monorails. (We've already seen how\nbad he is at predicting the future, and from my personal experience in\ncollecting and judging thousands of predictions, people really stink\nat predicting infrastructure developments.) And for that matter, the\nwristwatch thing is strange for another reason: at least in 2007,\n(male) kids were stopping the wearing of wristwatches as celllphones\nspread; should we chalk this up to it being Cuba, even\nfree-of-Communists-Cuba, or Wolfe being Wolfe?\n\nMuch more important would be the embryo selection / genetic\nengineering and possible cloning: human cloning would be pretty much\nimpossible for even a rich mafiosi to do in 2007, genetic engineering\nalmost as hard, and embryo selection doable but very expensive: while\ngenome sequencing has been falling exponentially (is now ~<$1000 a\ngenome, projected to hit $100 2014-2015) that also implies that back\nin 2007 a sequenced genome would probably cost scores of thousands of\ndollars and the more embryos you sequence in order to implant only the\nembryos with the most height-linked alleles, the more you're going to\npay out. For a few dozen embryos (which would let you pick an embryo,\non average, with 5 or 6 binary variants set as you please), that's\ngoing to run you a few millions. Hard to imagine a mafiosi caring\nabout height *that* much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\nBut Chris is not a \"made man\" in the Mafia sense, as I understand it. He's\nnever been part of the Mafia. But I don't remember him saying such a\nthing and it's not at Google Books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does he ever explicitly say he was not a made man, even honorary? He\ndoes seem pretty handy with a knife as his father taught him...\n\nThe Chris quote is:\n\n \"When the fight was over, I had the men come up to Jarden and me\none at a time. I shook hands with each of them, told them how well\nthey had fought and how much I appreciated everything they had done,\nand got Antonio to clean out any wounds and bandage them. Antonio\nhimself was next to last, because he had been busy with a couple of\nwounded men. I had Simoneau and Yves holding lanterns so he could see\nwhat he was doing. I shook his hand like I had everybody else's and\ntold him he was a full member of our crew now, a made man. \"If you\nwant or need anything, if you've got any kind of problem, you come to\nme, capeesh? You'll get a hearing and fair treatment.\" I was leaning\non the handspike when I said that, and to tell the truth I was just\nabout tired enough to fall down without it.\"\n\n\"a full member of our crew now, a made man\". (Is 'capeesh' the right\nspelling? I thought it was 'capisch'.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there was one with the right gene combinations for considerably greater\nheight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perfectly possible. Random recombination, after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other clue that Chris is a clone (or has a genome created from\nscratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother. He doesn't\neven say that he's especially tempted to go to New Jersey and see the\nmother he never knew.\n\nHowever, I don't think this is proof." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither. If it were a more normal character, this would be a good\nargument from silence since mothers are important to most people, who\nwould be homesick either at the monastery for years and years and not\neven allowed home. But this is the ultra-oblivious Chris we're talking\nabout. His silences mean essentially nothing because he's as thick as\na brick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good point. I think it pretty much settles the question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should note that the height thing could be usefully employed in some\nsort of progressively refining time-loop like in _New Sun_: the old\nChris-father thinks back and decides additional height would've been\nuseful and made his life easier and pays for it (but would he be\nwilling to pay enough? see previous). Severian benefits from his\nheight, doesn't he, which gets him unearned respect and deference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, we've all heard endless condemnation of the molestations and\nthe cover-ups. There's no need for either Wolfe or Chris to join in\nthat. What Chris does comment on is what's important to him, namely\nviolence (and non-violence). He gives the reader, who already condemns\nthe church for the molestations and cover-ups, an /additional/ reason\nto condemn it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris, however, spends the entire book lecturing us on how pirates\nreally are, what life was really like, how the websites and movies get\nit wrong, in passage after passage. His speech is just another\nlecture. Personally, I've heard plenty in the past about female\npirates and how pirates were democracies, and I was mildly surprised\nat Wolfe not being contrarian and asserting that pirate vessels were\njust as bad... Chris was content to lecture us with these old tropes,\nso why not the scandals?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, in our reality, did American Catholic priests teach boys to\n\"act like sheep\"? Did they discourage fighting even in self-defense?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What lesson should one learn from the Church's insistence on settling\nout of court and using non-disclosure agreements? Doesn't sound like\nstanding up for oneself or punishing the guilty." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354045921.69377.YahooMailNeo@web84519.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T19:52:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 2:13 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Pirate Freedom notes\n\n\nOn Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other clue that Chris is a clone (or has a genome created from\nscratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother. He doesn't\neven say that he's especially tempted to go to New Jersey and see the\nmother he never knew.\n\nHowever, I don't think this is proof." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Me neither. If it were a more normal character, this would be a good\nargument from silence since mothers are important to most people, who\nwould be homesick either at the monastery for years and years and not\neven allowed home. But this is the ultra-oblivious Chris we're talking\nabout. His silences mean essentially nothing because he's as thick as\na brick.\n\n\nAs I read the book, I noticed the total absence of any mention of a mother and wondered whether the book were at least partly conceived as a response or in opposition to Peter Pan. Let's just say, Chris is no Wendy Darling." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354057896.35380.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T23:11:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom notes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gwern Branwen \nOn Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:23 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that the mention of Cuba comes across as very odd, a bit like a\n1950s judgement transplanted to the 1990s, or something like\nthat---disconnected and out of place. I took it as a hint to not take the\nhistory stuff (aside from timelines) too seriously, since we can't tell\nwhether Chris ends up in our own past or in the past of a future that is\nitself a consciously made-up \"alternate history\" that is not our own. That's\nthe best way I can put it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's charitable, yes. If we go by Thalassocrat's timeline, he\nclaimed IIRC, that Chris was born in 2007?\n\nIf he really was, then the monorails are not very strong evidence of\nbeing in an alternate world since there's still time for monorails to\ngo up depending on how late he's talking of them, or Wolfe back in\n2007 could've been optimistic about monorails. (We've already seen how\nbad he is at predicting the future, and from my personal experience in\ncollecting and judging thousands of predictions, people really stink\nat predicting infrastructure developments.) And for that matter, the\nwristwatch thing is strange for another reason: at least in 2007,\n(male) kids were stopping the wearing of wristwatches as celllphones\nspread; should we chalk this up to it being Cuba, even\nfree-of-Communists-Cuba, or Wolfe being Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another good one, though maybe we should chalk it up to the\nmonastery, since novices have no need to talk on the phone all the\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much more important would be the embryo selection / genetic\nengineering and possible cloning: human cloning would be pretty much\nimpossible for even a rich mafiosi" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(That's plural. The singular is \"mafioso\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to do in 2007, genetic engineering\nalmost as hard, and embryo selection doable but very expensive: while\ngenome sequencing has been falling exponentially (is now ~<$1000 a\ngenome, projected to hit $100 2014-2015) that also implies that back\nin 2007 a sequenced genome would probably cost scores of thousands of\ndollars and the more embryos you sequence in order to implant only the\nembryos with the most height-linked alleles, the more you're going to\npay out. For a few dozen embryos (which would let you pick an embryo,\non average, with 5 or 6 binary variants set as you please), that's\ngoing to run you a few millions. Hard to imagine a mafiosi caring\nabout height *that* much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that Chris was born either later than 2007, or in another universe.\n(Or Wolfe was sloppy.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Chris is not a \"made man\" in the Mafia sense, as I understand it. He's\nnever been part of the Mafia. But I don't remember him saying such a\nthing and it's not at Google Books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does he ever explicitly say he was not a made man, even honorary? He\ndoes seem pretty handy with a knife as his father taught him...\n\nThe Chris quote is:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip helpful quote]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"a full member of our crew now, a made man\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He obviously knows the concept. But my understanding, mostly from Wikipedia,\nis that a \"made man\" has worked for the Mafia for years, has killed someone on\na contract, and has gone through a ceremony. Chris gives no hint of anything\nlike that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Is 'capeesh' the right spelling? I thought it was 'capisch'.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently it's \"capisci\" (familiar) or \"capisce\" (formal). In English it's spelled\nall kinds of ways. By the way, if you ever need the answer, it's \"Capisco\"\n(I understand)--or, I suppose, \"Non capisco\", though you might want to be\ncareful with that one.\n\nI'd think Chris would know the Italian spellings, since thick as he may be,\nhe's good at languages. Either he used an anglicized spelling so readers\nwould understand it, or Wolfe did regardless of what would be in character for\nChris, or the copyeditor did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If there was one with the right gene combinations for considerably greater\nheight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perfectly possible. Random recombination, after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but not guaranteed. I was just picking a biological nit; it doesn't have\nanything to do with the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other clue that Chris is a clone (or has a genome created from\nscratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother. He doesn't\neven say that he's especially tempted to go to New Jersey and see the\nmother he never knew.\n\nHowever, I don't think this is proof." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Me neither. If it were a more normal character, this would be a good\nargument from silence since mothers are important to most people, who\nwould be homesick either at the monastery for years and years and not\neven allowed home. But this is the ultra-oblivious Chris we're talking\nabout. His silences mean essentially nothing because he's as thick as\na brick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, we've all heard endless condemnation of the molestations and\nthe cover-ups. There's no need for either Wolfe or Chris to join in\nthat. What Chris does comment on is what's important to him, namely\nviolence (and non-violence). He gives the reader, who already condemns\nthe church for the molestations and cover-ups, an /additional/ reason\nto condemn it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris, however, spends the entire book lecturing us on how pirates\nreally are, what life was really like, how the websites and movies get\nit wrong, in passage after passage. His speech is just another\nlecture. Personally, I've heard plenty in the past about female\npirates and how pirates were democracies, and I was mildly surprised\nat Wolfe not being contrarian and asserting that pirate vessels were\njust as bad... Chris was content to lecture us with these old tropes,\nso why not the scandals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because he's interested in piracy and wants to talk about his\nexperiences with it last. He's not so interested in Catholic scandals.\nOr Wolfe is writing a book about piracy and the Catholic parts are only\nincidental." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, in our reality, did American Catholic priests teach boys to\n\"act like sheep\"? Did they discourage fighting even in self-defense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What lesson should one learn from the Church's insistence on settling\nout of court and using non-disclosure agreements? Doesn't sound like\nstanding up for oneself or punishing the guilty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see what that has to do with my question. I hope someone who was\nraised Catholic will answer it. (Or has it already been answered on this list?)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }