Subject: (urth) Pirate Freedom notes

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 06:13:24 +0000

Finally got around to reading it. Quick read, reasonably entertaining.
Sadly, I find myself even less interested than _The Sorcerer's House_
in figuring out the secret - but I am more interested, and I enjoyed
_Pirate Freedom_ more, than _An Evil Guest_. Faint praise, perhaps.
Reading through the old email threads to see what I missed, I'm not
sure about some of the ideas floating around.

First, where's this stuff about him being cloned coming from? The one
bit of evidence I've seen is a quote to the effect that "my father
made me"; I can't find this in my _Pirate Freedom_ EPUB (but FBReader
seems to have buggy search so this may not count). But at face value,
this seems completely unconvincing to me: he's a *Mafia* guy! All "my
father made me" means is that he's a "made man", as one would expect
of the son of a big Mafia figure. Chris even says at one point to a
new pirate something to the effect 'now you're a made man". Presumably
no one thinks Chris just zapped him with some tailored RNA viruses...
"Half-human monster" is more promising, but in context, there's no
mention of simply human: "The artists of the Middle Ages painted
allegories, we say. What really happened was that they saw more
clearly than we do, and painted what they saw angels and devils,
beasts, and half-human monsters like me." The artists were painting
clones? Or is this just more Christian thought a la Pope? The best
line is "I am taller than most people my father told me once he got me
engineered that way and I was taller than he was by quite a bit." but
height has been known to be hereditable since Galton and a fair number
of genes have already been identified responsible for variance, so
even simple embryo selection (make multiple embryos, sequence the
genomes of each, implant the best-scoring one) would work for that.

Second, there's something really weird about the lack of attention
paid to the timeslips. Chris doesn't even explicitly mention anything
about time travel until like pg 80 where he says it just sank in
(?!!?!), and the implication is that the timeslip happened long before
he left for the entire monastery: the enrolled kids are, after the
closure of the school is announced, implied to be different from the
previous kids, and at some point Chris notices no one has
wristwatches. Now, this is the same Chris who after wandering around
colonial age Cuba and sailing ships still hasn't noticed what time
period he is in, so the safe assumption is that the wristwatches
disappeared when the school closed. So the entire monastery has been
timeslipped for many years, and we are told that some of the monks go
out to hear confessions each week, so the timeslip could not have gone
unnoticed for more than a week at worst. So what's going on here with
the monastery? The lack of contact is curious, as Chris points out and
as is emphasized when we learn that Chris thinks his house is so close
that he'll just walk there - he didn't sneak out at any point, or have
a vacation or break? (His father can't visit him, but nothing is said
of Chris visiting his father.)

His obliviousness and rationalizings are supposedly not that: he
claims to pump the farmer he meets with the horse, but  why didn't he
just turn around and go back to the monastery and ask 'hey guys what
happened?' He also then rationalizes blatantly: 'And it was not there.
I decided then that there were two Havanas, or maybe the city had
changed its name and this little town had taken it over.' Sure, Chris.
Sure.

Having read a bunch of theories, I can't say any of them seem
especially plausible. No one has a good explanation of Jaime's
self-immolation or disappearance, Valentin & dog's murder, the
apparent foreknowledge of Lesage, Chris's father (if he is a later
Chris, why is he much shorter than his 'son'?) or the monastery's
behavior. Nothing that ties them all together. It's a little
frustrating, since once the various points are identified it feels
like there should be an obvious answer.

I feel a little like _The Sorcerer's House_or _An Evil Guest_ here: by
the end we've identified what the solution ought to look like (another
time traveler acting at various points in the story / Bax killing his
twin and usurping his identity / Cassie going to Woldercon and maybe
time-traveling herself), but we don't know how to go beyond that and
make the whole thing fall into a satisfying whole (who and how and why
/ how the letters were mistakenly or deliberately rearranged and the
deceptions before the final deception-letter / what Cassie actually
did).

-----

On a sidenote, the speech about the many Church sex abuse scandals is
disgusting. I don't take this as Wolfe deliberately giving us evidence
of Chris being a depraved monster, it reads too sincerely and is
consistent with the crankery I've documented elsewhere (although I
fully expect someone to reply saying 'no, don't confuse the text with
the author, let's interpret it as charitably as possible', just like
they did with the *non*fiction predictions I posted); the leadup to
his speech is itself misleading and slanted, completely ignoring the
central enabling coverup role the Church played for decades upon end.
There is no reason to not mention the Church's role, since the Bishop
is not otherwise portrayed sympathetically and mentioning it would
both be factually accurate and continue characterizing the Bishop...
The setup is also, shall we say, curious for making the victims
adolescents and not younger still as they so often were. It's also a
little strange that Wolfe expects the 'Communists to fall'. Even when
this was being written, Cuba's government had been substantially
liberalizing and privatizing. There's pretty much no reason to expect
them to 'fall' as opposed to follow a gradual transition to being,
like China, Communist in name-only.

-- 
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:23:08 +0000

> like China, Communist in name-only.

I agree that the mention of Cuba comes across as very odd, a bit like a 
1950s judgement transplanted to the 1990s, or something like 
that---disconnected and out of place. I took it as a hint to not take 
the history stuff (aside from timelines) too seriously, since we can't 
tell whether Chris ends up in our own past or in the past of a future 
that is itself a consciously made-up "alternate history" that is not our 
own. That's the best way I can put it.

As for the Catholic molestation cover-up stuff, I was also alarmed by 
its basic dishonesty. The facts and true extent of the official 
conspiracy were widely known in 2007. One could argue that Chris simply 
didn't want to "go there" or that he himself is blind to true evil, but 
come on. Chris is a murderer many times over---he should recognize evil 
in others, at least. More likely that Wolfe himself didn't want to "go 
there" but, as you say, not for any good reason. Again, why not bring 
true evil into a story about evil? (And Chris himself was not writing in 
the 1990s, so ... )

One is forced to at least suspect that Wolfe doesn't get it and doesn't 
want to. Which would be understandable if also unfortunate and 
disappointing.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:55:02 +0000

> From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
...

>no one thinks Chris just zapped him with some tailored RNA viruses...

But Chris is not a "made man" in the Mafia sense, as I understand it. ?He's
never been part of the Mafia. ?But I don't remember him saying such a
thing and it's not at Google Books.

>genomes of each, implant the best-scoring one) would work for that.

If there was one with the right gene combinations for considerably greater
height.

The other clue that Chris is a clone (or has a genome created from
scratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother. ?He doesn't
even say that he's especially tempted to go to New Jersey and see the
mother he never knew.

However, I don't think this is proof.

>paid to the timeslips.

I agree.

>Chris, why is he much shorter than his 'son'?)

That's a good point. ?I think it pretty much settles the question.

> or the monastery's

I don't know about that, though.
...

>adolescents and not younger still as they so often were.

I just looked at it again, the part I can see at GB, and I read this very
differently from you and David Stockhoff. “Chris makes it clear that
there were little girls who were victims too, just not in the cases the
bishop mentions. ?So we're not being told that all the cases were like
the ones in their church. ?(Does this mean, though, that Chris knew
about little girls being molested and didn't report it”)

Also, we've all heard endless condemnation of the molestations and
the cover-ups. ?There's no need for either Wolfe or Chris to join in
that. ?What Chris does comment on is what's important to him,?namely
violence (and non-violence). ?He gives the reader, who already condemns
the church for the molestations and cover-ups, an?/additional/ reason
to condemn it.

By the way, in our reality, did American Catholic priests teach boys to
"act like sheep"? “Did they discourage fighting even in self-defense”

> It's also a

What you describe is certainly the way to bet, but I think there could
still be a revolution there, maybe after a hard-line Communist
reaction. ?It's not too implausible for fiction. ?Also, as David Stockhoff
says,?the book may take place in an alternate universe. ?The monorails
certainly suggest that, as does genetic engineering if we assume Chris
is born or decanted not too long after the publication date.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:13:17 +0000

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:23 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> that---disconnected and out of place. I took it as a hint to not take the
> history stuff (aside from timelines) too seriously, since we can't tell
> whether Chris ends up in our own past or in the past of a future that is
> itself a consciously made-up "alternate history" that is not our own. That's
> the best way I can put it.

That's charitable, yes. If we go by Thalassocrat's timeline, he
claimed IIRC, that Chris was born in 2007?

If he really was, then the monorails are not very strong evidence of
being in an alternate world since there's still time for monorails to
go up depending on how late he's talking of them, or Wolfe back in
2007 could've been optimistic about monorails. (We've already seen how
bad he is at predicting the future, and from my personal experience in
collecting and judging thousands of predictions, people really stink
at predicting infrastructure developments.) And for that matter, the
wristwatch thing is strange for another reason: at least in 2007,
(male) kids were stopping the wearing of wristwatches as celllphones
spread; should we chalk this up to it being Cuba, even
free-of-Communists-Cuba, or Wolfe being Wolfe?

Much more important would be the embryo selection / genetic
engineering and possible cloning: human cloning would be pretty much
impossible for even a rich mafiosi to do in 2007, genetic engineering
almost as hard, and embryo selection doable but very expensive: while
genome sequencing has been falling exponentially (is now ~<$1000 a
genome, projected to hit $100 2014-2015) that also implies that back
in 2007 a sequenced genome would probably cost scores of thousands of
dollars and the more embryos you sequence in order to implant only the
embryos with the most height-linked alleles, the more you're going to
pay out. For a few dozen embryos (which would let you pick an embryo,
on average, with 5 or 6 binary variants set as you please), that's
going to run you a few millions. Hard to imagine a mafiosi caring
about height *that* much.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:
> But Chris is not a "made man" in the Mafia sense, as I understand it.  He's
> never been part of the Mafia.  But I don't remember him saying such a

Does he ever explicitly say he was not a made man, even honorary? He
does seem pretty handy with a knife as his father taught him...

The Chris quote is:

    "When the fight was over, I had the men come up to Jarden and me
one at a time. I shook hands with each of them, told them how well
they had fought and how much I appreciated everything they had done,
and got Antonio to clean out any wounds and bandage them. Antonio
himself was next to last, because he had been busy with a couple of
wounded men. I had Simoneau and Yves holding lanterns so he could see
what he was doing. I shook his hand like I had everybody else's and
told him he was a full member of our crew now, a made man. "If you
want or need anything, if you've got any kind of problem, you come to
me, capeesh? You'll get a hearing and fair treatment." I was leaning
on the handspike when I said that, and to tell the truth I was just
about tired enough to fall down without it."

"a full member of our crew now, a made man". (Is 'capeesh' the right
spelling? I thought it was 'capisch'.)

> If there was one with the right gene combinations for considerably greater

Perfectly possible. Random recombination, after all.

> scratch or something) is that he never mentions his mother.  He doesn't

Me neither. If it were a more normal character, this would be a good
argument from silence since mothers are important to most people, who
would be homesick either at the monastery for years and years and not
even allowed home. But this is the ultra-oblivious Chris we're talking
about. His silences mean essentially nothing because he's as thick as
a brick.

> That's a good point.  I think it pretty much settles the question.

I should note that the height thing could be usefully employed in some
sort of progressively refining time-loop like in _New Sun_: the old
Chris-father thinks back and decides additional height would've been
useful and made his life easier and pays for it (but would he be
willing to pay enough? see previous). Severian benefits from his
height, doesn't he, which gets him unearned respect and deference.

> the cover-ups.  There's no need for either Wolfe or Chris to join in
> that.  What Chris does comment on is what's important to him, namely
> violence (and non-violence).  He gives the reader, who already condemns
> the church for the molestations and cover-ups, an /additional/ reason
> to condemn it.

Chris, however, spends the entire book lecturing us on how pirates
really are, what life was really like, how the websites and movies get
it wrong, in passage after passage. His speech is just another
lecture. Personally, I've heard plenty in the past about female
pirates and how pirates were democracies, and I was mildly surprised
at Wolfe not being contrarian and asserting that pirate vessels were
just as bad... Chris was content to lecture us with these old tropes,
so why not the scandals?

> "act like sheep"?  Did they discourage fighting even in self-defense?

What lesson should one learn from the Church's insistence on settling
out of court and using non-disclosure agreements? Doesn't sound like
standing up for oneself or punishing the guilty.

-- 
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:52:01 +0000

>________________________________
>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 2:13 PM
>Subject: Re: (urth) Pirate Freedom notes
> 
>
>As I read the book, I noticed the total absence of any mention of a mother and wondered whether the book were at least partly conceived as a response or in opposition to Peter Pan. Let's just say, Chris is no Wendy Darling.
>
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 23:11:36 +0000

>free-of-Communists-Cuba, or Wolfe being Wolfe?

Another good one, though maybe we should chalk it up to the
monastery, since novices have no need to talk on the phone all the
time.

>impossible for even a rich mafiosi

(That's plural. The singular is "mafioso".)

> to do in 2007, genetic engineering

It seems to me that Chris was born either later than 2007, or in another universe.
(Or Wolfe was sloppy.)

>does seem pretty handy with a knife as his father taught him...

[snip helpful quote]

>"a full member of our crew now, a made man".

He obviously knows the concept. But my understanding, mostly from Wikipedia,
is that a "made man" has worked for the Mafia for years, has killed someone on
a contract, and has gone through a ceremony. Chris gives no hint of anything
like that.

> (Is 'capeesh' the right spelling? I thought it was 'capisch'.)

Apparently it's "capisci" (familiar) or "capisce" (formal). In English it's spelled
all kinds of ways. By the way, if you ever need the answer, it's "Capisco"
(I understand)--or, I suppose, "Non capisco", though you might want to be
careful with that one.

I'd think Chris would know the Italian spellings, since thick as he may be,
he's good at languages. Either he used an anglicized spelling so readers
would understand it, or Wolfe did regardless of what would be in character for
Chris, or the copyeditor did.

>Perfectly possible. Random recombination, after all.

Sure, but not guaranteed. I was just picking a biological nit; it doesn't have
anything to do with the story.

...

>just as bad... Chris was content to lecture us with these old tropes,

Because he's interested in piracy and wants to talk about his
experiences with it last. He's not so interested in Catholic scandals.
Or Wolfe is writing a book about piracy and the Catholic parts are only
incidental.

>standing up for oneself or punishing the guilty.

I don't see what that has to do with my question. I hope someone who was
raised Catholic will answer it. (Or has it already been answered on this list?)

Jerry Friedman