{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6314", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6314, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2012-11-26T13:39:16+00:00", "last": "2012-11-29T02:31:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T13:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: And the secret is only that we torturers obey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the badger: For some reason I want to believe that there's something else, something esoteric ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with badger that this is too broad and simplistic. I agree with Jeff that this is, in\nsome fashion, \"the secret\" that Master Gurloes imparted but there is more to it that we are supposed\nto derive.\n\nWhen talking to Dorcas, Severian provides an elaborate, well-thought out justification for why his job\nas torturer is necessary. Yet when given Autarchial powers, one of Severian's first acts is to abolish\nthe guild.\n\nM. Andre-Druissi has provided an nice framework for showing how BotNS tracks Gene Wolfe's life up to that\npoint, including his military service in Korea. I wonder if the \"secret\" of the torturers might relate to\nsomething personal that happened to Gene Wolfe; perhaps something he was ordered to do as a soldier. \n\n(this is in keeping with my interpretive notion that BotNS is written at numerous levels- fictional/\nnarrative, mytho-religious, socio-political and autobiographical. So when a gap appears at the narrative\nlevel, the answer may be found by extrapolation at one or more of the other levels)\n\nI think this torturer guild secret is in direct parallel with the secret of the Inhumi. There also, we are\ntold of a secret which will not be revealed. Later we apparently are told the secret but it seems so vague \nand general it seems there must be more to it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T14:06:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this torturer guild secret is in direct parallel with the\nsecret of the Inhumi. There also, we are\ntold of a secret which will not be revealed. Later we apparently are\ntold the secret but it seems so vague\nand general it seems there must be more to it.\n\n\nI've been wondering if the inhumi's secret isn't that, if once given\nconsent to drink from a human, they then require consent to drink from\na human. It's the only thing I've thought of thus far that seems to\noffer a practical threat to the inhumi if revealed, but when I read\nBotSS it felt like and _old_ secret, so unless it's something they\ndiscovered from interactions with the Neighbors than it wouldn't\nsatisfy in that regard.\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B3CFFA.9020702@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T20:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2012 7:39 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: And the secret is only that we torturers obey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the badger: For some reason I want to believe that there's something else, something esoteric ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with badger that this is too broad and simplistic. I agree with Jeff that this is, in\nsome fashion, \"the secret\" that Master Gurloes imparted but there is more to it that we are supposed\nto derive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's more about the contrariness of being the lowest of the low, \nthat they purposefully put themselves at the bottom of the heap because \nthey have no scruples about what they will do for the Autarch, which \nalso makes them the most trusted and valued. This may be what is \nqualitatively different from the other guilds' mystery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When talking to Dorcas, Severian provides an elaborate, well-thought out justification for why his job\nas torturer is necessary. Yet when given Autarchial powers, one of Severian's first acts is to abolish\nthe guild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev has also had a religious awakening about this time, and realizes \nthat the party line that he presents to Dorcas makes perfect sense as a \njustification for a secular autocrat to ordain a guild of torturers, but \nsuch a thing is abhorrent to the Increate and anyone who truly follows Him.\n\nI don't know that he literally abolishes the guild (he still speaks of \nthe masters by title), or perhaps removes the license to perform torture \nfrom their charter, reducing them to jailers and executioners." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T21:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<50B3CFFA.9020702@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When talking to Dorcas, Severian provides an elaborate, well-thought out\njustification for why his job\nas torturer is necessary. Yet when given Autarchial powers, one of\nSeverian's first acts is to abolish\nthe guild." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know that he literally abolishes the guild (he still speaks of the\nmasters by title), or perhaps removes the license to perform torture from\ntheir charter, reducing them to jailers and executioners." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All Severian says on the subject is that he \"reforms\" the Guild." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354047685.59596.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T20:21:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: nate jarvis \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, November 26, 2012 9:06 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) (no subject)\n\nI think this torturer guild secret is in direct parallel with the\nsecret of the Inhumi. There also, we are\ntold of a secret which will not be revealed. Later we apparently are\ntold the secret but it seems so vague\nand general it seems there must be more to it.\n\n\nI've been wondering if the inhumi's secret isn't that, if once given\nconsent to drink from a human, they then require consent to drink from\na human. It's the only thing I've thought of thus far that seems to\noffer a practical threat to the inhumi if revealed, but when I read\nBotSS it felt like and _old_ secret, so unless it's something they\ndiscovered from interactions with the Neighbors than it wouldn't\nsatisfy in that regard.\n\nNate.\n\n\n\nThis reminds me of the way the torturers treat their \"clients\" as honored guests, giving them a tour of the torture chambers and so on. Of course the whole setup is staged for their own purposes and the whole point is that their victims are there against their will. (Similarly, in Tracking Song much is made of the respect the tribes have for those they kill and eat.) But Severian goes on about how people often trade scrolls to avoid their own fate and voluntarily take on another's; he also seems to imply that most people are in some sense brought there because of decisions they have made, although I don't think he goes so far as to propose any kind of \"consent to be tortured.\" On the other hand, if there is a \"consent to be governed,\" maybe there is a \"consent to be governed badly,\" i.e., that we get the kind of government we deserve.\n\nIn short, not only does this sound very much like a concern of Wolfe's but it's also how he might approach it. And of course there is the idea that no vampire may enter your house until he is invited." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354068397.98374.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T02:06:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: nate jarvis natejarv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been wondering if the inhumi's secret isn't that, if once given\nconsent to drink from a human, they then require consent to drink from\na human. It's the only thing I've thought of thus far that seems to\noffer a practical threat to the inhumi if revealed, but when I read\nBotSS it felt like and _old_ secret, so unless it's something they\ndiscovered from interactions with the Neighbors than it wouldn't\nsatisfy in that regard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I can tell, Wolfe's answer does offer a practical threat to\nthe inhumi. If the people on Blue and Green were non-parasitic, the\ninhumi couldn't parasitize them, and if the people were honest, the\ninhumi would be honest and couldn't deceive them. Then inhumi\npreying on people would stop, and the next generation would have\nonly animal intelligence, at which point people could wipe them out\n(or keep a few in parks and zoos).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B57B1A.4040507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T02:46:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<1354068397.98374.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/27/2012 9:06 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: nate jarvis natejarv at gmail.com\nI've been wondering if the inhumi's secret isn't that, if once given\nconsent to drink from a human, they then require consent to drink from\na human. It's the only thing I've thought of thus far that seems to\noffer a practical threat to the inhumi if revealed, but when I read\nBotSS it felt like and _old_ secret, so unless it's something they\ndiscovered from interactions with the Neighbors than it wouldn't\nsatisfy in that regard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nAs far as I can tell, Wolfe's answer does offer a practical threat to\nthe inhumi. If the people on Blue and Green were non-parasitic, the\ninhumi couldn't parasitize them, and if the people were honest, the\ninhumi would be honest and couldn't deceive them. Then inhumi\npreying on people would stop, and the next generation would have\nonly animal intelligence, at which point people could wipe them out\n(or keep a few in parks and zoos)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, is that really a threat to them? We already know that \nviolence and addiction etc. harm us. Inhumi would hardly threaten us \nenough that we'd see such an advantage to wiping them out that we would \nstop being dishonest for even as long as it took to destroy the \nmotherships in Independence Day. We're just a dishonest species. So I'd \ncall it more of a theoretical threat.\n\nStill, it's something they'd want to keep a secret." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T03:40:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<50B57B1A.4040507@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If everyone on Earth stops having sex or doing needle drugs for what?\na year? then we all go and get AIDS tests, then AIDS is cured.\n\nTHAT sounds more likely than everyone being nice to one another to\nwipe out vampire-like monsters they'd rather lynch.\n\nHorn seems to to feel if he revealed the secret it would spell trouble\nfor the inhumi as well.\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354144710.49443.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T23:18:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: nate jarvis \nIf everyone on Earth stops having sex or doing needle drugs for what?\na year? then we all go and get AIDS tests, then AIDS is cured.\n\nTHAT sounds more likely than everyone being nice to one another to\nwipe out vampire-like monsters they'd rather lynch.\n\nHorn seems to to feel if he revealed the secret it would spell trouble\nfor the inhumi as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to Andrew Mason for pointing out the \"too heavy for our hands\"\nline, which I'd forgotten.\n\nAlso, even if one person or a few people start treating others better, it\nwould be bad for the inhumi. And it would help others treat each other\nbetter, which in turn would help others. In particular, if people raised\ntheir children better, the children would grow into better people, and so\nforth--and I don't need to say that parents' effects on their children are\nan important theme of BotSS. I think Wolfe wants us to picture this\nand connect people's effect on the inhumi to parents' effect on their\nchildren.\n\n(What would happen if an inhumu got the Rajan's personality or\nspirit or ka or whatever they get?)\n\nOn the subject of Wolfe recommending an impossible spreading\ntransformation of society, let me quote some non-fiction, \"The Best\nIntroduction to the Mountains\":\n\n\"He [Tolkien] uncovered a forgotten wisdom among the barbarian tribes who had proved (against all expectation) strong enough to overpower the glorious civilizations of Greece and Rome; and he had not only uncovered but understood it. He understood that their strength -- the irresistible strength that had smashed the legions -- had been the product of that wisdom, which has now been ebbing away bit by bit for a thousand years. \n\n\"Having learned that, he created in Middle-earth a means of displaying it in the clearest and most favourable possible light. Its reintroduction would be small -- just three books among the overwhelming flood of books published every year -- but as large as he could make it; and he was very conscious (no man has been more conscious of it than he) that an entire forest might spring from a handful of seed. What he did, then, was to plant in my consciousness and yours the truth that society need not be as we see it around us. \n\n[Government chains us.] \n\n\"It need not be so. We might have a society in which the laws were few and just, simple, permanent, and familiar to everyone -- a society in which everyone stood shoulder-to-shoulder because everyone lived by the same changeless rules, and everyone knew what those rules were. When we had it, we would also have a society in which the lack of wealth was not reason for resentment but a spur to ambition, and in which wealth was not a cause for self-indulgence but a call to service. We had it once, and some time in this third millennium we shall have it again...\"\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T23:30:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354144710.49443.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good. We need to see more application of his essay on Tolkien to his\nown works. It's easy to get so lost in his intricacies and tensions that\nwe lose sight that the works do, in some fashion, 'argue' for certain moral\nand political beliefs and practices. I actually think Short Sun is one of\nthe more 'obvious' examples, perhaps often missed because it is also one of\nthe densest and most elliptical. (I would add that his parent-child\ndynamic is rich and poignant - not 'sermonic', in the negative sense - so\nwhatever your politics you can *feel *some of the good familial pathos and\nbe freshly 'sensitized' if nothing else.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Jerry Friedman\nwrote:\nFrom: nate jarvis \nIf everyone on Earth stops having sex or doing needle drugs for what?\na year? then we all go and get AIDS tests, then AIDS is cured.\n\nTHAT sounds more likely than everyone being nice to one another to\nwipe out vampire-like monsters they'd rather lynch.\n\nHorn seems to to feel if he revealed the secret it would spell trouble\nfor the inhumi as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks to Andrew Mason for pointing out the \"too heavy for our hands\"\nline, which I'd forgotten.\n\nAlso, even if one person or a few people start treating others better, it\nwould be bad for the inhumi. And it would help others treat each other\nbetter, which in turn would help others. In particular, if people raised\ntheir children better, the children would grow into better people, and so\nforth--and I don't need to say that parents' effects on their children are\nan important theme of BotSS. I think Wolfe wants us to picture this\nand connect people's effect on the inhumi to parents' effect on their\nchildren.\n\n(What would happen if an inhumu got the Rajan's personality or\nspirit or ka or whatever they get?)\n\nOn the subject of Wolfe recommending an impossible spreading\ntransformation of society, let me quote some non-fiction, \"The Best\nIntroduction to the Mountains\":\n\n\"He [Tolkien] uncovered a forgotten wisdom among the barbarian tribes who\nhad proved (against all expectation) strong enough to overpower the\nglorious civilizations of Greece and Rome; and he had not only uncovered\nbut understood it. He understood that their strength -- the irresistible\nstrength that had smashed the legions -- had been the product of that\nwisdom, which has now been ebbing away bit by bit for a thousand years.\n\n\"Having learned that, he created in Middle-earth a means of displaying it\nin the clearest and most favourable possible light. Its reintroduction\nwould be small -- just three books among the overwhelming flood of books\npublished every year -- but as large as he could make it; and he was very\nconscious (no man has been more conscious of it than he) that an entire\nforest might spring from a handful of seed. What he did, then, was to plant\nin my consciousness and yours the truth that society need not be as we see\nit around us.\n\n[Government chains us.]\n\n\"It need not be so. We might have a society in which the laws were few and\njust, simple, permanent, and familiar to everyone -- a society in which\neveryone stood shoulder-to-shoulder because everyone lived by the same\nchangeless rules, and everyone knew what those rules were. When we had it,\nwe would also have a society in which the lack of wealth was not reason for\nresentment but a spur to ambition, and in which wealth was not a cause for\nself-indulgence but a call to service. We had it once, and some time in\nthis third millennium we shall have it again...\"\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B6A5BC.7080707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T00:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354144710.49443.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is always that one particular example of the Best Human, whom I \nshall not name here. But as long as as his example persists, there is \nhope. That's Wolfe's hidden point. (The unlikeliness of it is a separate \npoint.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 6:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n(What would happen if an inhumu got the Rajan's personality or\nspirit or ka or whatever they get?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354148937.9855.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T00:28:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354144710.49443.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(What would happen if an inhumu got the Rajan's personality or\nspirit or ka or whatever they get?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nBefore anybody says anything, hasn't someone argued here that the Rajan was an inhumu at some point, and that's how his whatever got into Silk's body or something?\n\nJerry" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95C1FC6E-574B-4FDA-B4A4-38FF51E4F565@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T02:31:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "About the only thing I think about the SotH is that it must be something of relevance for the reader. It can't be just some nifty industrial secret. " } ] } ] }