Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue

nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and even as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't take their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly between Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal sense

nate jarvis: If the inhumi were to "fly" through space, I think that would require a special morphological configuration distinct from vine or snake or "person".....I assume the cell membrane obstacle is based on lack of atmospheric pressure rather than the limitations of of cryoprotectants such as glycerol, but either might present an insurmountable obstacle.

Did the inhumi use Neighbors' technology to board the Whorl prior to Long Sun? Or hijack a Crew reconnaissance landing on Green?

From what we know of the the Inhumi and eliminating the impossible, the "lie" becomes the obvious answer. Yet, we are still tempted to believe the lie, despite a dearth of evidence for the flight except the words of the Inhumi. (to be fair, I find one bit of evidence: the inhumi ability to stay alive for years buried underground; but this does not address the cellular fluid pressure nor escape velocity questions).

________________________________ From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:22 PM Subject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue

nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and even as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't take their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly between Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal sense

With regard to the astral projection sort of travel, I agree with those who think that has more to do with the less-than-substantial Neighbors' influence than Inhumi. FWIW, this sort of travel seems to produce the "real essence" of the travellers or something like that. So gods and inhumi who travel that way end up showing their "true" form, whatever that may mean. The Inhumi end up as hyper-sexualized humans which is probably worth some discussion. I'll leave aside the debate on whether all predatory humans rely on stealth and emphasize the point that all Inhumi that we encounter are relentless liars and deceivers. It seems completely a part of their nature. Likely this is metaphorically related to the Serpent, Satan, The Great Deceiver, etc., not to mention Jahi/Lilith, the temptress, demoness etc. We could go so far as to say that the Secret of the Inhumi is a lie just like everything else the Inhumi say. But I think good writing requires that there is something of substance to this secret that we are supposed to figure out. As you point out earlier, nate, this secret is supposed to be something which could ruin the Inhumi race if revealed. Your idea about consent is along these lines, and I appreciate that. Yes, quite a bit is said about the Inhumi travelling across the void from Green to Blue when the planets are in conjunction. In previous discussions about that we've agree that the planets cannot be close enough to share an atmosphere and not collide so the Inhumi must be travelling through the void. My position has been that multi-cellular organisms cannot possibly survive such a trip without exploded cell membranes. Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that biological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on the power of wings. Still, I may be in the minority in disbelieving the lies of the Inhumi, but it leaves me feeling as frustrated as when I hear real world masses believing the lies of some demogogue. So, I think that is a lie to cover up the inhumi reliance on being spaceship stowaways. I feel it has to have some important significance like that. Likewise, Antonin Scriabin's thought that the Inhumi mating habits could be just a biological oddity doesn't ring true to me. Why would such a thing be revealed at the very end of the story by Juganu? There are more lies going on here I think, meant to protect the Inhumi race. These are like the lies told by Quetzal to get some of the Whorl residents to go to Green. As Krait tells Horn, the Inhumi think of humans as cattle. They are more (socially) intelligent than humans and will use lies and deception to herd us where they want us, just as we use fences, whips and nose rings to herd cows where we want them. ?

On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:58 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Does anyone recall a passage in which the narrator suggests inhumi are derived from plants? (Please excuse it if I've brought it up before.) I'd have to look at it again to confirm it (and that it was meant in a literal sense), but it could make for an interesting twist to this discussion. I believe the inhumi are related to the vines of Green. Plants could traverse space given sufficient external hardness, but that is insufficient by itself. There are at least three dangers and three challenges in traversing space: (1) Vacuum rupture (2) Radiation (3) Heat/cold variation (4) Navigation/propulsion (5) Reentry/landing (6) Food/air I'm pretty sure there are Earth seeds that could handle the first two or three for a period. The second three are probably unsolvable except by (1) setting a trajectory, (2) either large "wings" or a very hard, nonflammable exterior, and (3) dormancy. A winged, intelligent descendent of plants capable of going dormant could conceivably carry this out (aside from firing seeds across the abyss). It's a stretch, but one worth making. Anything else is unlikely even by SF standards. From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:22 PM Subject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue

nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and even as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't take their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly between Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal sense

With regard to the astral projection sort of travel, I agree with those who think that has more to do with the less-than-substantial Neighbors' influence than Inhumi. FWIW, this sort of travel seems to produce the "real essence" of the travellers or something like that. So gods and inhumi who travel that way end up showing their "true" form, whatever that may mean. The Inhumi end up as hyper-sexualized humans which is probably worth some discussion. I'll leave aside the debate on whether all predatory humans rely on stealth and emphasize the point that all Inhumi that we encounter are relentless liars and deceivers. It seems completely a part of their nature. Likely this is metaphorically related to the Serpent, Satan, The Great Deceiver, etc., not to mention Jahi/Lilith, the temptress, demoness etc. We could go so far as to say that the Secret of the Inhumi is a lie just like everything else the Inhumi say. But I think good writing requires that there is something of substance to this secret that we are supposed to figure out. As you point out earlier, nate, this secret is supposed to be something which could ruin the Inhumi race if revealed. Your idea about consent is along these lines, and I appreciate that. Yes, quite a bit is said about the Inhumi travelling across the void from Green to Blue when the planets are in conjunction. In previous discussions about that we've agree that the planets cannot be close enough to share an atmosphere and not collide so the Inhumi must be travelling through the void. My position has been that multi-cellular organisms cannot possibly survive such a trip without exploded cell membranes. Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that biological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on the power of wings. Still, I may be in the minority in disbelieving the lies of the Inhumi, but it leaves me feeling as frustrated as when I hear real world masses believing the lies of some demogogue. So, I think that is a lie to cover up the inhumi reliance on being spaceship stowaways. I feel it has to have some important significance like that. Likewise, Antonin Scriabin's thought that the Inhumi mating habits could be just a biological oddity doesn't ring true to me. Why would such a thing be revealed at the very end of the story by Juganu? There are more lies going on here I think, meant to protect the Inhumi race. These are like the lies told by Quetzal to get some of the Whorl residents to go to Green. As Krait tells Horn, the Inhumi think of humans as cattle. They are more (socially) intelligent than humans and will use lies and deception to herd us where they want us, just as we use fences, whips and nose rings to herd cows where we want them. _______________________________________________

If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what humans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved, then how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping inhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was their method of shipping? Climbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like our own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard to fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use human tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they might also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of Short Sun. David Stockhoff lists: (1) Vacuum rupture (2) Radiation (3) Heat/cold variation (4) Navigation/propulsion (5) Reentry/landing (6) Food/air Micrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included. If inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and likely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired out of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of space guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are capable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let alone manipulating controls to do so themselves. So why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is this just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors, and wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide circulation on Blue? Nate. _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff: A winged, intelligent descendent of plants capable of going dormant could conceivably carry this out (aside from firing seeds across the abyss). It's a stretch, but one worth making. Anything else is unlikely even by SF standards.

________________________________ From: "entonio at gmail.com" <entonio at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue Didn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well? I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi? can't cross the void the way we're told they do. They don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical? plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. Ant?nio No dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis <natejarv at gmail.com> escreveu:

If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what humans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved, then how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping inhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was their method of shipping? Climbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like our own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard to fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use human tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they might also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of Short Sun. David Stockhoff lists: (1) Vacuum rupture (2) Radiation (3) Heat/cold variation (4) Navigation/propulsion (5) Reentry/landing (6) Food/air Micrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included. If inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and likely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired out of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of space guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are capable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let alone manipulating controls to do so themselves. So why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is this just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors, and wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide circulation on Blue? Nate. _______________________________________________

________________________________ From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:44 AM Subject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue My own line of thought regarding the essential secret of the Inhumi has been to focus on their hitchihiking/stowaway skills (Fava's integration into Mora's family is the same sort of skill). What just struck me is that hitchhiking/stowaway strategies are very inherent in the nature of many types of seeds.

Entonio wrote: I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do. They don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off.

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:08 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: You're absolutely correct: We're not talking about hard SF here. Some basic reasons to give the inhunu space flight theory a break are (1) they are aliens whose physiology we have only the smallest clues about (2) we do indeed keep expanding our understanding of the limits of earthly life (although to be fair bacteria don't quite count) (3) as you suggest, we know they have the powers of glamour and inhumation, so why not Cthulhu-like "flight" between "the stars"? (Tzadkiel seems to do it.) I've argued for the first two; the last bothers me because I'm not really sure I accept the shapechanging powers. Still, winged flight between planets requires ether to swim in. Wolfe does not propose an ether. He makes allusions to Lovecraft but does not resurrect the whole Lovecraftian pseudoscientific context for winged flight. So even just arguing from literary suspension of disbelief is problematic. From this perspective, the claim is not dissimilar from a character saying he goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys, or claiming he has a ring to control the world, or claiming that only he can provide eternal life, or ... In other words, it sounds like a folkloric lie used to scare children, one which is in this case slightly out of place. Some things we tell ourselves about vampires (inhumi) are true, and some are not. Given Wolfe's fixation on the "truth" of myth, this seems to fit: Vampires don't fly through space---they lie and deceive and strike at night when you are alone and unprotected. This is where I end up. ------------------------------ From: "entonio at gmail.com" <entonio at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue Didn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well? I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do. They don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. Ant?nio No dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis <natejarv at gmail.com> escreveu:

If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what humans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved, then how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping inhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was their method of shipping? Climbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like our own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard to fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use human tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they might also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of Short Sun. David Stockhoff lists: (1) Vacuum rupture (2) Radiation (3) Heat/cold variation (4) Navigation/propulsion (5) Reentry/landing (6) Food/air Micrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included. If inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and likely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired out of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of space guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are capable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let alone manipulating controls to do so themselves. So why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is this just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors, and wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide circulation on Blue? Nate. _______________________________________________

Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of physics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a misunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal circumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error

On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

________________________________ From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> To: urth at lists.urth.net Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:23 AM Subject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue Entonio wrote:

I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi? can't cross the void the way we're told they do. They don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical? plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off.

I think the strongest evidence that the official story of the inhumi's travel is false is that Horn, in trying to explain it, says that light objects fall less quickly, as is shown by the example of feathers, (and so inhumi won't burn up on entering the atmosphere at speed, as landers do). That's not just something that breaks the laws of physics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a misunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal circumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error, which we are proud of having got beyond, as told in (perhaps apocryphal) stories about Galileo. So I think by saying this he is sending an implicit message to the (real) audience, 'This explanation does not work'. _____ ---This argument parallels the one I just made: Krait's claim mixes the known falsehood with the truth. Even living on the Whorl, Horn should grasp that feathers are not just lighter versions of rocks. _____ On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have." (RTTW 3). (And the Rajan nods, as if he had indeed seen this.) _____ ---Whether true or not, this confirms that in the flight theory, inhumi are moving fast enough to burn up, and only the unfurling or motion of their wings can save them. An object with high drag slows down faster than an object with low drag---unless you're in space. High drag will not prevent burnup if you're moving too fast to begin

Another issue that hasn't come up is how spaceflight would evolve. Perhaps the inhumi's ancestors flew mindlessly toward Blue the way a moth flutters around a lamp, and a random few made it. But the only way this could confer advantage is if (a) Green's population was dying or (b) Blue was an advantageous place to carry out part of the life cycle and return more powerful than before or (c) Blue fundamentally changed the species in some way. Well, we already know the answer would be "c" (and thus also "b"). Here's another question: why would Wolfe set up the Blue-Green system so that the planets came close to one another in the first place, only to reveal the supposed significance of this as false? That's a deep game to play. (A species with landers might make the crossing more easily, just as it is easier for us to get to the Moon than to Mars, but this distinction would be lost on readers who never even see a Neighbor lander and who already have accepted star travel.)

________________________________ From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:23 AM Subject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue

On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! Yes. Jahlee either confirms the flight story or confirms that all inhumi lie about it. We can't tell which. But we can examine her story.

Lee Berman wrote: Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of physics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a misunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal circumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error

So far, so good....

On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie... But that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the Inhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt.... I could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this. Most of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that what most other people say is mostly true. But there is a certain "species" of people who exploit this. We have all experienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over with such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, "maybe this is true..". They they've got you. I see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to identify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of truthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person says must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be viewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed. This is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member- thus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be cognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. _______________________________________________

You're absolutely correct: We're not talking about hard SF here. Some basic reasons to give the inhunu space flight theory a break are (1) they are aliens whose physiology we have only the smallest clues about (2) we do indeed keep expanding our understanding of the limits of earthly life (although to be fair bacteria don't quite count) (3) as you suggest, we know they have the powers of glamour and inhumation, so why not Cthulhu-like "flight" between "the stars"? (Tzadkiel seems to do it.) I've argued for the first two; the last bothers me because I'm not really sure I accept the shapechanging powers. Still, winged flight between planets requires ether to swim in. Wolfe does not propose an ether. He makes allusions to Lovecraft but does not resurrect the whole Lovecraftian pseudoscientific context for winged flight. So even just arguing from literary suspension of disbelief is problematic. From this perspective, the claim is not dissimilar from a character saying he goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys, or claiming he has a ring to control the world, or claiming that only he can provide eternal life, or ... In other words, it sounds like a folkloric lie used to scare children, one which is in this case slightly out of place. Some things we tell ourselves about vampires (inhumi) are true, and some are not. Given Wolfe's fixation on the "truth" of myth, this seems to fit: Vampires don't fly through space---they lie and deceive and strike at night when you are alone and unprotected. This is where I end up. From: "entonio at gmail.com" <entonio at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue Didn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well? I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do. They don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. Ant?nio No dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis <natejarv at gmail.com> escreveu:

If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what humans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved, then how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping inhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was their method of shipping? Climbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like our own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard to fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use human tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they might also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of Short Sun. David Stockhoff lists: (1) Vacuum rupture (2) Radiation (3) Heat/cold variation (4) Navigation/propulsion (5) Reentry/landing (6) Food/air Micrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included. If inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and likely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired out of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of space guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are capable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let alone manipulating controls to do so themselves. So why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is this just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors, and wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide circulation on Blue? Nate. _______________________________________________

Maybe you are right - it could indeed be about lying - Sergei Lee Berman wrote:

Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of physics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a misunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal circumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error

So far, so good....

On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie... But that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the Inhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt.... I could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this. Most of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that what most other people say is mostly true. But there is a certain "species" of people who exploit this. We have all experienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over with such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, "maybe this is true..". They they've got you. I see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to identify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of truthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person says must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be viewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed. This is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member- thus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be cognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. _______________________________________________

On 11/28/2012 9:14 PM, nate jarvis wrote: Another issue that hasn't come up is how spaceflight would evolve. Perhaps the inhumi's ancestors flew mindlessly toward Blue the way a moth flutters around a lamp, and a random few made it. </David Stockhoff> Wasn't there a theory that Neighbors on Green sent inhumi to Blue as part of a war between Neighbors on Blue and Green. Nate.

On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry? No dia 28/11/2012, ?s 17:47, Sergei SOLOVIEV <soloviev at irit.fr> escreveu:

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry?

Now there's a brain-tickler. She certainly doesn't report it as though someone just told her. But since inhumi talk to each other as well as to humans when they are among them, and since the Neighbors used landers as well, it could be regarded as common knowledge. However, even the humans would only know about it if they saw a lander burn up.

David Stockhoff also wrote: Yes, I agree. Science realism is after all impossible, if you are proposing scientific impossibilities such as FTL.

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

Andrew Mason: On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie...

________________________________ From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:04 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry?

Now there's a brain-tickler. She certainly doesn't report it as though someone just told her. But since inhumi talk to each other as well as to humans when they are among them, and since the Neighbors used landers as well, it could be regarded as common knowledge. However, even the humans would only know about it if they saw a lander burn up.

Maybe the Neighbors knew what meteors are. David Stockhoff also wrote:

Yes, I agree. Science realism is after all impossible, if you are proposing scientific impossibilities such as FTL.

Or that aliens could get human characters or atmans or whatever--not just what's in the DNA, but what is affected by the person's moral decisions--from the person's blood. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

________________________________ From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:13 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

Andrew Mason: On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie...

... Other way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. ?To judge by the Wikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of Blue, though too broken-up to make craters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite I agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. ?Most of the meteors Horn has seen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or something). ?I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the visible and infrared ranges, not little?scratches (great word). Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie...

Other way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. To judge by the Wikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of Blue, though too broken-up to make craters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite I agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. Most of the meteors Horn has seen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or something). I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the visible and infrared ranges, not little scratches (great word).

Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote: I think I'm very much in agreement. Let's see what we know of it, after all: - the inhumi fly, apparently also at high altitudes - the settlers have found no inhumi bases on Blue - the inhumi seem to appear in great numbers during conjunction - conjunction itself exists - outside conjunction, the settlers seem not to be overly fearful of the inhumi It's natural for the settlers to assume that the inhumi come from Green, and for want of a better explanation, they 'jump'. It needn't be the inhumi's invention, it's a conclusion the settlers would reach by themselves. It would also seem necessary that they are able to go back to Green, since that's where they hatch after having fed while on Blue. Unless they are native to Blue and don't make the trip at all, they do make the trip. Yeah, they could turn into wood after having set themselves on course. But for some reason that explanation doesn't fly for me. There's a mystery here to solve and I feel it should unlock something else.

________________________________ From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> To: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>; The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue From: Jerry Friedman From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie...

Other way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. To judge by the Wikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of Blue, though too broken-up to make craters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite I agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. Most of the meteors Horn has seen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or something). I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the visible and infrared ranges, not little scratches (great word).

I don't think they would be visible because they would probably not be going fast enough. Meteors glow mainly because of their velocity relative to the Earth, which is on the order of 20 miles per second. A stone dropped from the edge of the atmosphere would not glow. However I still think we are intended to believe that the inhumi do indeed fly between worlds. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry? No dia 28/11/2012, ?s 17:47, Sergei SOLOVIEV <soloviev at irit.fr> escreveu:

Maybe you are right - it could indeed be about lying - Sergei Lee Berman wrote:

Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of physics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a misunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal circumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error

So far, so good....

On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer evidence, when she says: "If you lack endurance?" She shrugged. "Only your frozen corpse gets to Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt you've seen them. I have."

Grrrrrr! I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass and density to create the visible light display we can see from a large meteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says she's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star sightings to bolster the lie... But that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the Inhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt.... I could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this. Most of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that what most other people say is mostly true. But there is a certain "species" of people who exploit this. We have all experienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over with such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, "maybe this is true..". They they've got you. I see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to identify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of truthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person says must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be viewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed. This is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member- thus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be cognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. _______________________________________________