{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6319", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6319, "subject": "Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "messages": 30, "voices": 10, "first": "2012-11-26T19:22:46+00:00", "last": "2012-11-29T18:12:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-26T19:22:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and\neven as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't\ntake their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly\nbetween Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal\nsense" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With regard to the astral projection sort of travel, I agree with those who think\nthat has more to do with the less-than-substantial Neighbors' influence than Inhumi. FWIW,\nthis sort of travel seems to produce the \"real essence\" of the travellers or something like\nthat. So gods and inhumi who travel that way end up showing their \"true\" form, whatever that\nmay mean. The Inhumi end up as hyper-sexualized humans which is probably worth some discussion.\n\nI'll leave aside the debate on whether all predatory humans rely on stealth and emphasize the \npoint that all Inhumi that we encounter are relentless liars and deceivers. It seems completely\na part of their nature. Likely this is metaphorically related to the Serpent, Satan, The Great\nDeceiver, etc., not to mention Jahi/Lilith, the temptress, demoness etc.\n\nWe could go so far as to say that the Secret of the Inhumi is a lie just like everything else\nthe Inhumi say. But I think good writing requires that there is something of substance to this\nsecret that we are supposed to figure out.\n\nAs you point out earlier, nate, this secret is supposed to be something which could ruin the\nInhumi race if revealed. Your idea about consent is along these lines, and I appreciate that.\n\nYes, quite a bit is said about the Inhumi travelling across the void from Green to Blue when\nthe planets are in conjunction. In previous discussions about that we've agree that the \nplanets cannot be close enough to share an atmosphere and not collide so the Inhumi must be\ntravelling through the void. \n\nMy position has been that multi-cellular organisms cannot possibly survive such a trip without \nexploded cell membranes. Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that \nbiological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on the power of wings. Still,\nI may be in the minority in disbelieving the lies of the Inhumi, but it leaves me feeling as\nfrustrated as when I hear real world masses believing the lies of some demogogue.\n\nSo, I think that is a lie to cover up the inhumi reliance on being spaceship stowaways. I feel it\nhas to have some important significance like that. Likewise, Antonin Scriabin's thought that the \nInhumi mating habits could be just a biological oddity doesn't ring true to me. Why would such\na thing be revealed at the very end of the story by Juganu? There are more lies going on here I \nthink, meant to protect the Inhumi race.\n\nThese are like the lies told by Quetzal to get some of the Whorl residents to go to Green. As Krait \ntells Horn, the Inhumi think of humans as cattle. They are more (socially) intelligent than humans and\nwill use lies and deception to herd us where they want us, just as we use fences, whips and nose\nrings to herd cows where we want them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T01:08:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that\nbiological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on\nthe power of wings.\n\n\nAny possibility some of the ruined buildings on Green are something\nother than buildings? (e.g., space elevators, like in Banks's Feersum\nEndjinn, or cannons, like in War of the Worlds/The Moon is a Harsh\nMistress)\n\nIf the inhumi were to \"fly\" through space, I think that would require\na special morphological configuration distinct from vine or snake or\n\"person\". Being both \"naked\" and maneuverable while in transit seems\nless likely to work than being one or the other.\n\nI assume the cell membrane obstacle is based on lack of atmospheric\npressure rather than the limitations of of cryoprotectants such as\nglycerol, but either might present an insurmountable obstacle.\n\nDid the inhumi use Neighbors' technology to board the Whorl prior to\nLong Sun? Or hijack a Crew reconnaissance landing on Green?\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T13:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "nate jarvis: If the inhumi were to \"fly\" through space, I think that would require\na special morphological configuration distinct from vine or snake or\n\"person\".....I assume the cell membrane obstacle is based on lack of atmospheric\npressure rather than the limitations of of cryoprotectants such as\nglycerol, but either might present an insurmountable obstacle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did the inhumi use Neighbors' technology to board the Whorl prior to\nLong Sun? Or hijack a Crew reconnaissance landing on Green?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think these are exactly the questions Gene Wolfe expects us to ask. But I differ\nfrom some others in finding that he provides unequivocally likely answers.\n\nThe first question boils down to: \"Do the Inhumi really overcome impossible biological\nchallenges to fly through space or do they lie about it?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From what we know of the the Inhumi and eliminating the impossible, the \"lie\" becomes the \nobvious answer. Yet, we are still tempted to believe the lie, despite a dearth of evidence \nfor the flight except the words of the Inhumi. (to be fair, I find one bit of evidence: the\ninhumi ability to stay alive for years buried underground; but this does not address the \ncellular fluid pressure nor escape velocity questions)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe also gives us the answer to the second question, the one you post above regarding\nthe Inhumi using technology or surreptitiously hitching a ride. Inhumi are explicitly \ndescribed as poor at using technology but brilliant at hitching rides.\n\nWe don't know how Quetzal got onto The Whorl but we are shown in exquisite detail how\nKrait wrangles a ride onto Horn's boat and then onto the lander. Not only does Wolfe show\nKrait using manipulation, lies, flattery, forced oaths, impersonation, exploitation of\nfamily etc., but he makes it seem easy and natural for Krait to use these stratagems to tie \nHorn into knots. Plus he has Krait admit he thinks of humans as cattle. Unintelligent, \neasily herded food. (Horn, Sinew, Hoof, Hide etc. are probably not coincidental names\nhere). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354049902.60727.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-27T20:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone recall a passage in which the narrator suggests inhumi are derived from plants? (Please excuse it if I've brought it up before.) \n\n\nI'd have to look at it again to confirm it (and that it was meant in a literal sense), but it could make for an interesting twist to this discussion. I believe the inhumi are related to the vines of Green. Plants could traverse space given sufficient external hardness, but that is insufficient by itself. There are at least three dangers and three challenges in traversing space:\n\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\n\nI'm pretty sure there are Earth seeds that could handle the first two or three for a period. The second three are probably unsolvable except by (1) setting a trajectory, (2) either large \"wings\" or a very hard, nonflammable exterior, and (3) dormancy.\n\nA winged, intelligent descendent of plants capable of going dormant could conceivably carry this out (aside from firing seeds across the abyss). It's a stretch, but one worth making. Anything else is unlikely even by SF standards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:22 PM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and\neven as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't\ntake their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly\nbetween Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal\nsense" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With regard to the astral projection sort of travel, I agree with those who think\nthat has more to do with the less-than-substantial Neighbors' influence than Inhumi. FWIW,\nthis sort of travel seems to produce the \"real essence\" of the travellers or something like\nthat. So gods and inhumi who travel that way end up showing their \"true\" form, whatever that\nmay mean. The Inhumi end up as hyper-sexualized humans which is probably worth some discussion.\n\nI'll leave aside the debate on whether all predatory humans rely on stealth and emphasize the \npoint that all Inhumi that we encounter are relentless liars and deceivers. It seems completely\na part of their nature. Likely this is metaphorically related to the Serpent, Satan, The Great\nDeceiver, etc., not to mention Jahi/Lilith, the temptress, demoness etc.\n\nWe could go so far as to say that the Secret of the Inhumi is a lie just like everything else\nthe Inhumi say. But I think good writing requires that there is something of substance to this\nsecret that we are supposed to figure out.\n\nAs you point out earlier, nate, this secret is supposed to be something which could ruin the\nInhumi race if revealed. Your idea about consent is along these lines, and I appreciate that.\n\nYes, quite a bit is said about the Inhumi travelling across the void from Green to Blue when\nthe planets are in conjunction. In previous discussions about that we've agree that the \nplanets cannot be close enough to share an atmosphere and not collide so the Inhumi must be\ntravelling through the void. \n\nMy position has been that multi-cellular organisms cannot possibly survive such a trip without \nexploded cell membranes. Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that \nbiological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on the power of wings. Still,\nI may be in the minority in disbelieving the lies of the Inhumi, but it leaves me feeling as\nfrustrated as when I hear real world masses believing the lies of some demogogue.\n\nSo, I think that is a lie to cover up the inhumi reliance on being spaceship stowaways. I feel it\nhas to have some important significance like that. Likewise, Antonin Scriabin's thought that the \nInhumi mating habits could be just a biological oddity doesn't ring true to me. Why would such\na thing be revealed at the very end of the story by Juganu? There are more lies going on here I \nthink, meant to protect the Inhumi race.\n\nThese are like the lies told by Quetzal to get some of the Whorl residents to go to Green. As Krait \ntells Horn, the Inhumi think of humans as cattle. They are more (socially) intelligent than humans and\nwill use lies and deception to herd us where they want us, just as we use fences, whips and nose\nrings to herd cows where we want them. ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<052DBB1D-AF80-4F37-9ED7-C734E26A052A@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T22:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354049902.60727.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes the inhuma are liana as is the narrators staff. This has been my position since about 2001.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:58 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nDoes anyone recall a passage in which the narrator suggests inhumi are derived from plants? (Please excuse it if I've brought it up before.) \n\nI'd have to look at it again to confirm it (and that it was meant in a literal sense), but it could make for an interesting twist to this discussion. I believe the inhumi are related to the vines of Green. Plants could traverse space given sufficient external hardness, but that is insufficient by itself. There are at least three dangers and three challenges in traversing space:\n\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nI'm pretty sure there are Earth seeds that could handle the first two or three for a period. The second three are probably unsolvable except by (1) setting a trajectory, (2) either large \"wings\" or a very hard, nonflammable exterior, and (3) dormancy.\n\nA winged, intelligent descendent of plants capable of going dormant could conceivably carry this out (aside from firing seeds across the abyss). It's a stretch, but one worth making. Anything else is unlikely even by SF standards.\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:22 PM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "nate jarvis: Of course characters in BotSS travel to the Whorl (Horn's walk in) and\neven as far as Nessus (inhuma included) without spacecraft. They don't\ntake their bodies, though, and I thought the inhumi claimed to fly\nbetween Green and Blue, when the time was right, in a very literal\nsense" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With regard to the astral projection sort of travel, I agree with those who think\nthat has more to do with the less-than-substantial Neighbors' influence than Inhumi. FWIW,\nthis sort of travel seems to produce the \"real essence\" of the travellers or something like\nthat. So gods and inhumi who travel that way end up showing their \"true\" form, whatever that\nmay mean. The Inhumi end up as hyper-sexualized humans which is probably worth some discussion.\n\nI'll leave aside the debate on whether all predatory humans rely on stealth and emphasize the \npoint that all Inhumi that we encounter are relentless liars and deceivers. It seems completely\na part of their nature. Likely this is metaphorically related to the Serpent, Satan, The Great\nDeceiver, etc., not to mention Jahi/Lilith, the temptress, demoness etc.\n\nWe could go so far as to say that the Secret of the Inhumi is a lie just like everything else\nthe Inhumi say. But I think good writing requires that there is something of substance to this\nsecret that we are supposed to figure out.\n\nAs you point out earlier, nate, this secret is supposed to be something which could ruin the\nInhumi race if revealed. Your idea about consent is along these lines, and I appreciate that.\n\nYes, quite a bit is said about the Inhumi travelling across the void from Green to Blue when\nthe planets are in conjunction. In previous discussions about that we've agree that the \nplanets cannot be close enough to share an atmosphere and not collide so the Inhumi must be\ntravelling through the void. \n\nMy position has been that multi-cellular organisms cannot possibly survive such a trip without \nexploded cell membranes. Perhaps most damaging to this story is the impossible premise that \nbiological creatures could somehow achieve escape velocity purely on the power of wings. Still,\nI may be in the minority in disbelieving the lies of the Inhumi, but it leaves me feeling as\nfrustrated as when I hear real world masses believing the lies of some demogogue.\n\nSo, I think that is a lie to cover up the inhumi reliance on being spaceship stowaways. I feel it\nhas to have some important significance like that. Likewise, Antonin Scriabin's thought that the \nInhumi mating habits could be just a biological oddity doesn't ring true to me. Why would such\na thing be revealed at the very end of the story by Juganu? There are more lies going on here I \nthink, meant to protect the Inhumi race.\n\nThese are like the lies told by Quetzal to get some of the Whorl residents to go to Green. As Krait \ntells Horn, the Inhumi think of humans as cattle. They are more (socially) intelligent than humans and\nwill use lies and deception to herd us where they want us, just as we use fences, whips and nose\nrings to herd cows where we want them. \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-27T22:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354049902.60727.YahooMailNeo@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what\nhumans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved,\nthen how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping\ninhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was\ntheir method of shipping?\n\nClimbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like\nour own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard\nto fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use\nhuman tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they\nmight also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of\nShort Sun.\n\nDavid Stockhoff lists:\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nMicrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included.\n\nIf inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and\nlikely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired\nout of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of\nspace guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are\ncapable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let\nalone manipulating controls to do so themselves.\n\nSo why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is\nthis just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors,\nand wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide\ncirculation on Blue?\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1895C2B1-4C87-434D-A3D6-FD20B3343769@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T13:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well?\n\nI find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do. \n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. \n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what\nhumans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved,\nthen how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping\ninhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was\ntheir method of shipping?\n\nClimbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like\nour own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard\nto fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use\nhuman tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they\nmight also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of\nShort Sun.\n\nDavid Stockhoff lists:\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nMicrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included.\n\nIf inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and\nlikely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired\nout of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of\nspace guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are\ncapable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let\nalone manipulating controls to do so themselves.\n\nSo why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is\nthis just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors,\nand wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide\ncirculation on Blue?\n\nNate.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T14:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1895C2B1-4C87-434D-A3D6-FD20B3343769@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: A winged, intelligent descendent of plants capable of going dormant \ncould conceivably carry this out (aside from firing seeds across the abyss). It's a \nstretch, but one worth making. Anything else is unlikely even by SF standards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do like this theme for the secret of the Inhumi. I agree with Marc that the association\nof parasitic inhumi and multi-limbed Neighbors with parasitic lianas and trees is more than\na casual metaphor. There seems to be something literal to it.\n\nAs Sergei reports, the description of Inhumi mating habits comes very close to the end of \nthis story and this placement suggests it should reveal more than it seems to. There is a\nludicrous nature to the idea of male inhumu building a house and providing a ritual gift to a \nfemale then having them flop into the water to perform non-sexual aqueous fertiliztion like a \nfish or frog.\n\nPerhaps mating/reproduction is part of the secret of the Inhumi. Juganu's story really doesn't\nring true. Perhaps he is just using what little animal biology he knows to invent a lie to \ncover their true plant/seed origin. (they don't sprout, but Inhumi do survive years of burial).\n\nMy own line of thought regarding the essential secret of the Inhumi has been to focus on their\nhitchihiking/stowaway skills (Fava's integration into Mora's family is the same sort of skill).\nWhat just struck me is that hitchhiking/stowaway strategies are very inherent in the nature of \nmany types of seeds. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354115313.31174.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1895C2B1-4C87-434D-A3D6-FD20B3343769@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're absolutely correct: We're not talking about hard SF here. Some basic reasons to give the inhunu space flight theory a break are (1) they are aliens whose physiology we have only the smallest clues about (2) we do indeed keep expanding our understanding of the limits of earthly life (although to be fair bacteria don't quite count) (3) as you suggest, we know they have the powers of glamour and inhumation, so why not? Cthulhu-like \"flight\" between \"the stars\"? (Tzadkiel seems to do it.) I've argued for the first two; the last bothers me because I'm not really sure I accept the shapechanging powers.\n\n\nStill, winged flight between planets requires ether to swim in. Wolfe does not propose an ether. He makes allusions to Lovecraft but does not resurrect the whole Lovecraftian pseudoscientific context for winged flight. So even just arguing from literary suspension of disbelief is problematic. \n\n\nFrom this perspective, the claim is not dissimilar from a character saying he goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys, or claiming he has a ring to control the world, or claiming that only he can provide eternal life, or ... In other words, it sounds like a folkloric lie used to scare children, one which is in this case slightly out of place. Some things we tell ourselves about vampires (inhumi) are true, and some are not. Given Wolfe's fixation on the \"truth\" of myth, this seems to fit: Vampires don't fly through space---they lie and deceive and strike at night when you are alone and unprotected. This is where I end up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: \"entonio at gmail.com\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue\n\nDidn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well?\n\nI find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi? can't cross the void the way we're told they do. \n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical? plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. \n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what\nhumans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved,\nthen how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping\ninhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was\ntheir method of shipping?\n\nClimbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like\nour own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard\nto fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use\nhuman tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they\nmight also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of\nShort Sun.\n\nDavid Stockhoff lists:\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nMicrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included.\n\nIf inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and\nlikely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired\nout of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of\nspace guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are\ncapable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let\nalone manipulating controls to do so themselves.\n\nSo why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is\nthis just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors,\nand wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide\ncirculation on Blue?\n\nNate.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354115393.64001.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:44 AM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue\n\n\n\n\nMy own line of thought regarding the essential secret of the Inhumi has been to focus on their\nhitchihiking/stowaway skills (Fava's integration into Mora's family is the same sort of skill).\nWhat just struck me is that hitchhiking/stowaway strategies are very inherent in the nature of \nmany types of seeds. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:23:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354115393.64001.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio wrote:\n\nI find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do.\n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the strongest evidence that the official story of the inhumi's\ntravel is false is that Horn, in trying to explain it, says that light\nobjects fall less quickly, as is shown by the example of feathers,\n(and so inhumi won't burn up on entering the atmosphere at speed, as\nlanders do). That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error,\nwhich we are proud of having got beyond, as told in (perhaps\napocryphal) stories about Galileo. So I think by saying this he is\nsending an implicit message to the (real) audience, 'This explanation\ndoes not work'.\n\nOn the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\" (RTTW 3). (And the Rajan nods, as if he had\nindeed seen this.)\n\nSo in short I don't know either." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354115313.31174.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n'a character claiming that only he can provide eternal life' = 'a character\nsaying he goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys' = 'a\nfolkloric lie used to scare children'\n\n\nSure. You bet.\n\nAnyway, it's funny on the inhumi flight through space and\ntransmogrification issue for me: I'm staunch that the Solar Cycle world is\none open to supernatural and paranormal causality, but I've never\ninstinctively felt those two characteristics of the inhumi were anything\nbut 'normal' 'scientific' phenomena as yet unknown and unexplainable to the\nunderstanding of the world of Wolfe's readers. (And I'm undecided on\nwhether the inhumi are telling tall tales about their flight through space\nor whether they literally do that - but the latter possibility is not at\nall ruled out for me.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:08 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nYou're absolutely correct: We're not talking about hard SF here. Some\nbasic reasons to give the inhunu space flight theory a break are (1) they\nare aliens whose physiology we have only the smallest clues about (2) we do\nindeed keep expanding our understanding of the limits of earthly life\n(although to be fair bacteria don't quite count) (3) as you suggest, we\nknow they have the powers of glamour and inhumation, so why not\nCthulhu-like \"flight\" between \"the stars\"? (Tzadkiel seems to do it.) I've\nargued for the first two; the last bothers me because I'm not really sure I\naccept the shapechanging powers.\n\nStill, winged flight between planets requires ether to swim in. Wolfe does\nnot propose an ether. He makes allusions to Lovecraft but does not\nresurrect the whole Lovecraftian pseudoscientific context for winged\nflight. So even just arguing from literary suspension of disbelief is\nproblematic.\n\nFrom this perspective, the claim is not dissimilar from a character saying\nhe goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys, or claiming he\nhas a ring to control the world, or claiming that only he can provide\neternal life, or ... In other words, it sounds like a folkloric lie used to\nscare children, one which is in this case slightly out of place. Some\nthings we tell ourselves about vampires (inhumi) are true, and some are\nnot. Given Wolfe's fixation on the \"truth\" of myth, this seems to fit:\nVampires don't fly through space---they lie and deceive and strike at night\nwhen you are alone and unprotected. This is where I end up.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* \"entonio at gmail.com\" \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue\n\nDidn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as\nwell?\n\nI find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided,\nexcept when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they\nand their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth\nliving lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not\nunlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what\nflat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the\nvoid the way we're told they do.\n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no\nhypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing\n(which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off.\n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what\nhumans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved,\nthen how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping\ninhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was\ntheir method of shipping?\n\nClimbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like\nour own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard\nto fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use\nhuman tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they\nmight also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of\nShort Sun.\n\nDavid Stockhoff lists:\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nMicrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included.\n\nIf inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and\nlikely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired\nout of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of\nspace guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are\ncapable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let\nalone manipulating controls to do so themselves.\n\nSo why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is\nthis just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors,\nand wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide\ncirculation on Blue?\n\nNate.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T16:23:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far, so good...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie...\n\nBut that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the \nInhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt....\n\nI could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this.\nMost of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that\nwhat most other people say is mostly true.\n\nBut there is a certain \"species\" of people who exploit this. We have all\nexperienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over\nwith such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, \"maybe this is\ntrue..\". They they've got you.\n\nI see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to \nidentify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of\ntruthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person\nsays must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be \nviewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed.\n\nThis is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member-\nthus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be\ncognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354121660.91817.YahooMailNeo@web84516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T16:54:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Andrew Mason \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:23 AM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue\n\nEntonio wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi? can't cross the void the way we're told they do.\n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical? plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the strongest evidence that the official story of the inhumi's\ntravel is false is that Horn, in trying to explain it, says that light\nobjects fall less quickly, as is shown by the example of feathers,\n(and so inhumi won't burn up on entering the atmosphere at speed, as\nlanders do). That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error,\nwhich we are proud of having got beyond, as told in (perhaps\napocryphal) stories about Galileo. So I think by saying this he is\nsending an implicit message to the (real) audience, 'This explanation\ndoes not work'.\n_____\n\n---This argument parallels the one I just made: Krait's claim mixes the known falsehood with the truth. Even living on the Whorl, Horn should grasp that feathers are not just lighter versions of rocks.\n\n_____\nOn the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\" (RTTW 3). (And the Rajan nods, as if he had\nindeed seen this.)\n_____\n\n---Whether true or not, this confirms that in the flight theory, inhumi are moving fast enough to burn up, and only the unfurling or motion of their wings can save them. An object with high drag slows down faster than an object with low drag---unless you're in space. High drag will not prevent burnup if you're moving too fast to begin " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "with, and wings don't help you slow down in space. I don't know\n whether to imagine inhumi skipping and settling slowly into the atmosphere or diving\n in and pulling up. Neither quite works. Why would Wolfe tell us this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another issue that hasn't come up is how spaceflight would evolve. Perhaps the inhumi's ancestors flew mindlessly toward Blue the way a moth flutters around a lamp, and a random few made it. But the only way this could confer advantage is if (a) Green's population was dying or (b) Blue was an advantageous place to carry out part of the life cycle and return more powerful than before or (c) Blue fundamentally changed the species in some way. Well, we already know the answer would be \"c\" (and thus also \"b\").\n\nHere's another question: why would Wolfe set up the Blue-Green system so that the planets came close to one another in the first place, only to reveal the supposed significance of this as false? That's a deep game to play. (A species with landers might make the crossing more easily, just as it is easier for us to get to the Moon than to Mars, but this distinction would be lost on readers who never even see a Neighbor lander and who already have accepted star travel.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354122450.17166.YahooMailNeo@web84507.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T17:07:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:23 AM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\n\n\nYes. Jahlee either confirms the flight story or confirms that all inhumi lie about it. We can't tell which. But we can examine her story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B64E4D.1030606@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2012-11-28T17:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe you are right - it could indeed be about lying -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nAndrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So far, so good....\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie...\n\nBut that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the \nInhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt....\n\nI could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this.\nMost of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that\nwhat most other people say is mostly true.\n\nBut there is a certain \"species\" of people who exploit this. We have all\nexperienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over\nwith such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, \"maybe this is\ntrue..\". They they've got you.\n\nI see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to \nidentify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of\ntruthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person\nsays must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be \nviewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed.\n\nThis is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member-\nthus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be\ncognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T02:14:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354121660.91817.YahooMailNeo@web84516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another issue that hasn't come up is how spaceflight would evolve.\nPerhaps the inhumi's ancestors flew mindlessly toward Blue the way a\nmoth flutters around a lamp, and a random few made it.\n\nWasn't there a theory that Neighbors on Green sent inhumi to Blue as\npart of a war between Neighbors on Blue and Green.\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<786E5335-93EA-43C7-8A63-C2D490D7BCDE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T02:16:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354115313.31174.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I'm very much in agreement.\n\nLet's see what we know of it, after all:\n- the inhumi fly, apparently also at high altitudes\n- the settlers have found no inhumi bases on Blue\n- the inhumi seem to appear in great numbers during conjunction\n- conjunction itself exists\n- outside conjunction, the settlers seem not to be overly fearful of the inhumi\n\nIt's natural for the settlers to assume that the inhumi come from Green, and for want of a better explanation, they 'jump'. It needn't be the inhumi's invention, it's a conclusion the settlers would reach by themselves. \n\nIt would also seem necessary that they are able to go back to Green, since that's where they hatch after having fed while on Blue. \n\nUnless they are native to Blue and don't make the trip at all, they do make the trip. Yeah, they could turn into wood after having set themselves on course. But for some reason that explanation doesn't fly for me. There's a mystery here to solve and I feel it should unlock something else. \n\n\nNo dia 28/11/2012, ?s 15:08, DAVID STOCKHOFF escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're absolutely correct: We're not talking about hard SF here. Some basic reasons to give the inhunu space flight theory a break are (1) they are aliens whose physiology we have only the smallest clues about (2) we do indeed keep expanding our understanding of the limits of earthly life (although to be fair bacteria don't quite count) (3) as you suggest, we know they have the powers of glamour and inhumation, so why not Cthulhu-like \"flight\" between \"the stars\"? (Tzadkiel seems to do it.) I've argued for the first two; the last bothers me because I'm not really sure I accept the shapechanging powers.\n\nStill, winged flight between planets requires ether to swim in. Wolfe does not propose an ether. He makes allusions to Lovecraft but does not resurrect the whole Lovecraftian pseudoscientific context for winged flight. So even just arguing from literary suspension of disbelief is problematic. \n\nFrom this perspective, the claim is not dissimilar from a character saying he goes from house to house delivering gifts via chimneys, or claiming he has a ring to control the world, or claiming that only he can provide eternal life, or ... In other words, it sounds like a folkloric lie used to scare children, one which is in this case slightly out of place. Some things we tell ourselves about vampires (inhumi) are true, and some are not. Given Wolfe's fixation on the \"truth\" of myth, this seems to fit: Vampires don't fly through space---they lie and deceive and strike at night when you are alone and unprotected. This is where I end up.\n\nFrom: \"entonio at gmail.com\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:57 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue\n\nDidn't Anne McCaffrey have some such filiform beings land on a planet as well?\n\nI find the insistence on the unfeasibility of inhumi travel misguided, except when it aims to point out that they may be lying (that's what they and their hosts do, after all). We keep discovering creatures here on earth living lives formerly considered impossible, and I mean impossible, not unlikely. To hold on to what we know to dismiss what we don't is what flat-earthers did. Still, I'm inclined to think the inhumi can't cross the void the way we're told they do. \n\nThey don't seem to have anything like a cell wall either, so no hypothetical plant-like abilities. Otoh, theres their shapeshifting thing (which I find no one protesting!), so all bets are off. \n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 27/11/2012, ?s 22:57, nate jarvis escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the Neighbors sent/brought the inhumi to the Whorl to judge what\nhumans are like based on how the inhumi parasitizing them behaved,\nthen how did they do so? If the Neighbors on Green were shipping\ninhumi to Bue as part of their war between Green and Blue, what was\ntheir method of shipping?\n\nClimbing a mountain--even one that pokes up out of the atmosphere like\nour own Olympus Mons--and then flapping your wings really really hard\nto fly through vacuum just seems silly. The inhumi obviously do use\nhuman tech to travel--that's how Krait and Horn get to Green--but they\nmight also still be using Neighbor tech to travel during the events of\nShort Sun.\n\nDavid Stockhoff lists:\n(1) Vacuum rupture\n(2) Radiation\n(3) Heat/cold variation\n(4) Navigation/propulsion\n(5) Reentry/landing\n(6) Food/air\n\nMicrometeorite impacts should maybe also be included.\n\nIf inhumi have a means of going into protected stasis then #4 and\nlikely #5 present insurmountable obstacles. If they were being fired\nout of cannons, that might address #4, but I don't recall any hint of\nspace guns on Green, nor any reason to believe that the inhumi are\ncapable of calculating where they would like to aim a space gun, let\nalone manipulating controls to do so themselves.\n\nSo why do people on Blue believe that the inhumi fly through space? Is\nthis just a case of the inhumi themselves knowing how to start rumors,\nand wanting that particular piece of misinformation in wide\ncirculation on Blue?\n\nNate.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0AE1C0CC-E519-49BE-ADF3-98A92B4C9D34@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T02:23:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<50B64E4D.1030606@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry?\n\nNo dia 28/11/2012, ?s 17:47, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe you are right - it could indeed be about lying -\n\nSergei\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So far, so good....\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie...\n\nBut that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the Inhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt....\n\nI could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this.\nMost of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that\nwhat most other people say is mostly true.\n\nBut there is a certain \"species\" of people who exploit this. We have all\nexperienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over\nwith such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, \"maybe this is\ntrue..\". They they've got you.\n\nI see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to identify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of\ntruthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person\nsays must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be viewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed.\n\nThis is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member-\nthus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be\ncognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B6D4EB.5000202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T03:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 9:14 PM, nate jarvis wrote:\nAnother issue that hasn't come up is how spaceflight would evolve.\nPerhaps the inhumi's ancestors flew mindlessly toward Blue the way a\nmoth flutters around a lamp, and a random few made it.\n\nWasn't there a theory that Neighbors on Green sent inhumi to Blue as\npart of a war between Neighbors on Blue and Green.\n\nNate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Any evidence for it would tend to destroy any flight theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B6D741.3080707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T03:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<0AE1C0CC-E519-49BE-ADF3-98A92B4C9D34@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThe problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry?\n\nNo dia 28/11/2012, ?s 17:47, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now there's a brain-tickler. She certainly doesn't report it as though \nsomeone just told her. But since inhumi talk to each other as well as to \nhumans when they are among them, and since the Neighbors used landers as \nwell, it could be regarded as common knowledge. However, even the humans \nwould only know about it if they saw a lander burn up." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354201492.38248.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<50B6D741.3080707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, \nor anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as \nburning up on re-entry?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now there's a brain-tickler. She certainly doesn't report it as though \nsomeone just told her. But since inhumi talk to each other as well as to humans \nwhen they are among them, and since the Neighbors used landers as well, it could \nbe regarded as common knowledge. However, even the humans would only know about \nit if they saw a lander burn up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe the Neighbors knew what meteors are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff also wrote:\nYes, I agree. Science realism is after all impossible, if you are proposing scientific impossibilities such as FTL." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or that aliens could get human characters or atmans or whatever--not just what's in the DNA, but what is affected by the person's moral decisions--from the person's blood.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354201988.5832.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason:\nOn the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nOther way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. ?To judge by the\nWikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of\nBlue, though too broken-up to make craters.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite\n\nI agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. ?Most of the meteors Horn has\nseen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or\nsomething). ?I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the visible\nand infrared ranges, not little?scratches (great word).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354202324.77699.YahooMailNeo@web84514.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:18:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354201492.38248.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, a much better example. Literal moral infection is pretty unscientific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:04 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/28/2012 9:23 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " The problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, \nor anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as \nburning up on re-entry?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now there's a brain-tickler. She certainly doesn't report it as though \nsomeone just told her. But since inhumi talk to each other as well as to humans \nwhen they are among them, and since the Neighbors used landers as well, it could \nbe regarded as common knowledge. However, even the humans would only know about \nit if they saw a lander burn up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe the Neighbors knew what meteors are.\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff also wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, I agree. Science realism is after all impossible, if you are proposing scientific impossibilities such as FTL." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or that aliens could get human characters or atmans or whatever--not just what's in the DNA, but what is affected by the person's moral decisions--from the person's blood.\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354202441.10840.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:20:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354201988.5832.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they are in essence dried-up or frozen wood, they would burn fast. But bright. Too bad we can't run an experiment---I've got lots of firewood behind my house." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:13 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason:\nOn the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nOther way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. ?To judge by the\nWikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of\nBlue, though too broken-up to make craters.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite\n\nI agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. ?Most of the meteors Horn has\nseen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or\nsomething). ?I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the visible\nand infrared ranges, not little?scratches (great word).\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354202968.45327.YahooMailClassic@web160705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:29:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354202441.10840.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course they are. They are flying, as?Yggdrasil the world tree no doubt floats between worlds, somehow.\n\n--- On Thu, 11/29/12, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue\nTo: \"Jerry Friedman\" , \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 29, 2012, 7:20 AM\n\n\n\n\nIf they are in essence dried-up or frozen wood, they would burn fast. But bright. Too bad we can't run an experiment---I've got lots of firewood behind my house." } ] }, { "message_id": "<24ED26D4459F4CD19DBECB724F5390C7@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:45:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<1354201988.5832.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she \nsays\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting \nstar\nsightings to bolster the lie..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. To judge by the\nWikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of\nBlue, though too broken-up to make craters.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite\n\nI agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. Most of the meteors Horn \nhas\nseen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or\nsomething). I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the \nvisible\nand infrared ranges, not little scratches (great word)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think they would be visible because they would probably not be going \nfast enough. Meteors glow mainly because of their velocity relative to the \nEarth, which is on the order of 20 miles per second. A stone dropped from \nthe edge of the atmosphere would not glow.\n\nHowever I still think we are intended to believe that the inhumi do indeed \nfly between worlds.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T16:08:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on Blue", "in_reply_to": "<24ED26D4459F4CD19DBECB724F5390C7@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\n\nI think I'm very much in agreement.\n\nLet's see what we know of it, after all:\n- the inhumi fly, apparently also at high altitudes\n- the settlers have found no inhumi bases on Blue\n- the inhumi seem to appear in great numbers during conjunction\n- conjunction itself exists\n- outside conjunction, the settlers seem not to be overly fearful of the inhumi\n\nIt's natural for the settlers to assume that the inhumi come from Green, and for want of a better explanation, they 'jump'. It needn't be the inhumi's invention, it's a conclusion the settlers would reach by themselves.\n\nIt would also seem necessary that they are able to go back to Green, since that's where they hatch after having fed while on Blue.\n\nUnless they are native to Blue and don't make the trip at all, they do make the trip. Yeah, they could turn into wood after having set themselves on course. But for some reason that explanation doesn't fly for me. There's a mystery here to solve and I feel it should unlock something else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That they do indeed come from Green is also suggested by:\n\nQuetzal certainly wanted humans to go to Green.\n\nThe inhumi in Pajarocu want humans to go to Green.\n\nJahlee has previously been on Green, since astral travel can only take\nyou to a place where you, or a companion, have been before, and Jahlee\ntakes the Rajan to a place on Green - the tower on the cliff face -\nwhere he has certainly not been before." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354207695.22393.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-29T16:48:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<24ED26D4459F4CD19DBECB724F5390C7@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered about the speed they would be moving at. Even if they are dead, they would have had to launch from Green at a speed at least = escape velocity. Then you have Blue's velocity, unless they don't come at Blue from that angle. If they are slower than meteors, then it seems plausible that they could---somehow---avoid burning if alive and burn up if dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nTo: Jerry Friedman ; The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:45 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue\n\n\n\nFrom: Jerry Friedman\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she \nsays\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting \nstar\nsightings to bolster the lie..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Other way around--typical visible meteors are pebbles. To judge by the\nWikipedia article, inhumi meteors would probably reach the surface of\nBlue, though too broken-up to make craters.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite\n\nI agree that Jahlee is probably lying, though. Most of the meteors Horn \nhas\nseen would be natural (unless the Blue-Green system is short of debris or\nsomething). I'd think inhumi meteors would be amazing fireballs in the \nvisible\nand infrared ranges, not little scratches (great word)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think they would be visible because they would probably not be going \nfast enough. Meteors glow mainly because of their velocity relative to the \nEarth, which is on the order of 20 miles per second. A stone dropped from \nthe edge of the atmosphere would not glow.\n\nHowever I still think we are intended to believe that the inhumi do indeed \nfly between worlds.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B7A592.1060306@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2012-11-29T18:12:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi's secret and numbers on blue", "in_reply_to": "<0AE1C0CC-E519-49BE-ADF3-98A92B4C9D34@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be a legend existing among inhumi - known from Neighbours and \nsince very old times. That is, it may be\nnot true that the inhumi burn at reentry, but they may know that meteors \nburn, and think that they themselves\nburn also - it is sort of \"heroic\", \"luciferian\" -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThe problem with Jahlee lying about re-entry burn-up is... How would she, or anyone else apart from the Whorl's Crew, know there is such a thing as burning up on re-entry?\n\nNo dia 28/11/2012, ?s 17:47, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe you are right - it could indeed be about lying -\n\nSergei\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Andrew Mason: That's not just something that breaks the laws of\nphysics, as things in what is partly a fantasy work may; it's a\nmisunderstanding of how the laws of physics work, even in normal\ncircumstances, and what is more it is a notorious schoolboy error\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So far, so good....\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On the other hand Jahlee does seem to confirm the story and offer\nevidence, when she says:\n\"If you lack endurance?\" She shrugged. \"Only your frozen corpse gets\nto Blue. It crosses the sky there, a little scratch of fire. No doubt\nyou've seen them. I have.\"\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Grrrrrr!\n\nI am tempted to argue that a frozen Inhumi body surely lacks the mass\nand density to create the visible light display we can see from a large\nmeteor, hundreds of miles up in the sky. Thus Jahlee is lying when she says\nshe's seen examples of Inhumi burning on re-entry...using real shooting star\nsightings to bolster the lie...\n\nBut that just furthers the debate, keeping doubt about the falseness of the Inhumi travel story alive. And as long as there is doubt....\n\nI could be wrong but I really think Wolfe is trying to make a point with this.\nMost of us humans are mostly honest and we operate on the default principle that\nwhat most other people say is mostly true.\n\nBut there is a certain \"species\" of people who exploit this. We have all\nexperienced the words of a suspected liar who repeats a lie over and over\nwith such deep sincerity that we can't help but start thinking, \"maybe this is\ntrue..\". They they've got you.\n\nI see the Inhumi as a lupine parable about such people. We should be able to identify such liars and we should be able to suspend our normal assumption of\ntruthfulness and honesty and assume the opposite- that everything such a person\nsays must be assumed to be a lie. The occasional truth that is produced must be viewed only a strategem so that the next lie will be believed.\n\nThis is a difficult view to take of another human being (especially a family member-\nthus the Krait-Sinew connection). But I think Wolfe is urging us to be\ncognizant of such people and to not fall victim to them. _______________________________________________" } ] } ] }