{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6325", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6325, "subject": "Inhumi secret", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2012-11-28T15:33:00+00:00", "last": "2012-11-29T16:25:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:33:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nnate jarvis: If everyone on Earth stops having sex or doing needle drugs for what?\na year? then we all go and get AIDS tests, then AIDS is cured.\nTHAT sounds more likely than everyone being nice to one another to\nwipe out vampire-like monsters they'd rather lynch.\nHorn seems to to feel if he revealed the secret it would spell trouble\nfor the inhumi as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My own thinking is in line with nates, but I have to admit that Jerry's thinking\nis congruent with Wolfe's quote in the Gevers interview. Perhaps we are just\nsupposed to accept it at face value. (urg..but I just...can't...do....that)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We should bear in mind, though, that the Rajan himself is very\ndoubtful about whether the secret is really useful. \"If you will, it\nis a great and terrible weapon. That is how the inhumi themselves see\nit, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a weapon too heavy for\nour hands.\"\n\nThis does of course raise the question why the inhumi themselves feel\nthreatened by it. Did they ever meet a people who were able to use\nit? Certainly not the Neighbours, who were also overwhelmed by them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354118247.85214.YahooMailNeo@web84517.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T15:57:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the Neighbors were somewhat better at it than we would be. They did after all gather enough \"political will\" to leave Blue and Green entirely. I don't see humans doing even that much.\n\n\nOr perhaps Krait has a more developed imagination, and a better grasp of ethics, than we assume---fully human, in other words, and not dependent on linear stimulus-response thinking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Andrew Mason \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:33 AM\nSubject: (urth) Inhumi secret\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "nate jarvis: If everyone on Earth stops having sex or doing needle drugs for what?\na year? then we all go and get AIDS tests, then AIDS is cured.\nTHAT sounds more likely than everyone being nice to one another to\nwipe out vampire-like monsters they'd rather lynch.\nHorn seems to to feel if he revealed the secret it would spell trouble\nfor the inhumi as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My own thinking is in line with nates, but I have to admit that Jerry's thinking\nis congruent with Wolfe's quote in the Gevers interview. Perhaps we are just\nsupposed to accept it at face value. (urg..but I just...can't...do....that)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We should bear in mind, though, that the Rajan himself is very\ndoubtful about whether the secret is really useful. \"If you will, it\nis a great and terrible weapon. That is how the inhumi themselves see\nit, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a weapon too heavy for\nour hands.\"\n\nThis does of course raise the question why the inhumi themselves feel\nthreatened by it. Did they ever meet a people who were able to use\nit? Certainly not the Neighbours, who were also overwhelmed by them.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-28T17:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354118247.85214.YahooMailNeo@web84517.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We should bear in mind, though, that the Rajan himself is very\ndoubtful about whether the secret is really useful. \"If you will, it\nis a great and terrible weapon. That is how the inhumi themselves see\nit, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a weapon too heavy for\nour hands.\"\n\n\nSo is it not a weapon too heavy for the Neighbors' hands? Did their\n\"final\" coordination affect the inhumi strongly/adversely enough that\nthey paranoidly expect humans to do something different but with\nsimilar effect, even if most humans would see such coordinated,\ninstantaneous \"goodness\" as utterly impossible?\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354133749.16213.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-11-28T20:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think they see a potential for good in us that we don't. They may inflate it somewhat because it represents a grave danger to them. But they are smart enough to not take it for granted---at least those who converse with the Rajan don't. Of course, the population of humans on Blue is much smaller than that on Earth, so it may seem more realistic on Blue than here. \n\n\nPerhaps their experience with the Neighbors surprised them in some way---they may have found a few uncorruptible Neighbors; presumably not too farfetched for humans, however \"impossible.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: nate jarvis \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:09 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Inhumi secret\n\nWe should bear in mind, though, that the Rajan himself is very\ndoubtful about whether the secret is really useful. \"If you will, it\nis a great and terrible weapon. That is how the inhumi themselves see\nit, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a weapon too heavy for\nour hands.\"\n\n\nSo is it not a weapon too heavy for the Neighbors' hands? Did their\n\"final\" coordination affect the inhumi strongly/adversely enough that\nthey paranoidly expect humans to do something different but with\nsimilar effect, even if most humans would see such coordinated,\ninstantaneous \"goodness\" as utterly impossible?\n\nNate.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T02:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354133749.16213.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if humans on Blue were all \"good\", wouldn't they all _let_ the\ninhumi feed from them, the way the Rajan does?\n\nNate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1354202183.14911.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T15:16:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: nate jarvis " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if humans on Blue were all \"good\", wouldn't they all _let_ the\ninhumi feed from them, the way the Rajan does?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can be good without being that good, and the inhumi might\nnaturally worry about the worst case, which is humans wiping\nthem out.\n\nHowever, this is a good point, and it might be fun to speculate.\nIf the inhumi picked up self-reliance from self-reliant humans,\nwould they want to work for their blood or beef tea? “As\nmessengers” “Entertainers” “Clerics, which Quetzal was good\nat” “Isn't there something about them not being good at manual\nlabor”\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-11-29T16:25:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inhumi secret", "in_reply_to": "<1354202183.14911.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Perhaps the Neighbors were somewhat better at it than we would be. \nThey did after all gather enough \"political will\" to leave Blue and Green entirely. \nI don't see humans doing even that much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this. I get the sense that the Neighbors, though previously highly susceptible\nto the evil of Inhumi are now immune to them. Perhaps this is related to the fact that they no \nlonger exist entirely in our physical, material plane " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I think they see a potential for good in us that we don't. \nThey may inflate it somewhat because it represents a grave danger to them. But they \nare smart enough to not take it for granted---" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this general direction of thinking might get to the heart not only of Short Sun but \nperhaps the whole Sun series. I've long gotten the sense that Wolfe is depicting a kind of\nspiritual progression across the 12 books. \n\nI'll guess Green is the starting point and the Edenic associations to it support that. Urth\nand The Whorl, war-torn and ruled by superhuman pagan gods, is probably the next stage in \nthe progression. Ushas and Blue would be next; the Flooding somehow keeps the rule of the\ngiant gods at a more manageable level?\n\nAs seems to be Wolfe's wont, he doesn't directly address the impact of Christ's arrival in his\nfiction. But advanced beings like the hierotypes, The Green Man and Neighbors would seem to \nillustrate what the next stage beyond our own current status might be. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }