{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6328", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6328, "subject": "Short Sun Notes: Chems", "messages": 15, "voices": 8, "first": "2012-12-01T22:34:14+00:00", "last": "2012-12-27T10:17:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-01T22:34:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a small thing, but I think an interesting one. The question\nhas been raised in the past why, apart from Marble, there appear to be\nno chems on Blue. It’s worth noting, though, that there seem to be\nvery few chems on the Whorl as well. Hound and Tansy say they have not\nseen any chems for many years except soldiers, and later Incus says\nthat there are no female chems left in Viron except Olivine. So it\nappears that civilian chems have almost died out; and military chems\nwould presumably stay in post for as long as the cities they are set\nto guard are occupied. In that case we don’t need to give any special\nreason why chems have not come to Blue.\n\nBut are there in fact none on Blue? Someone once speculated that\nCijfer was a chem: and although the indications are rather slight, I\nthink they may have been right. The main evidence is in RTTW 6, where\nthe Rajan says of Cijfer ?[If she had been an inhuma] she would not\nhave covered Jahlee's face, or fetched a bio to help her?. This is a\npuzzling sentence — is he saying that she _would_ have fetched a bio\nto help her, or that she _wouldn?t_? And how in any case is this\nrelevant to her being an inhuma? But the significant thing here is the\nuse of ?bio? ? why draw attention to the fact that Cijfer might have\nsummoned a bio, if she is a bio herself (and so is everyone else in\nthe neighbourhood)?\n\nLater (RTTW 9), again wondering about who might be an inhumu/a, the\nRajan says “Hide, Vadsig, Aanvagen, Beroep, and Azijin can be\ndismissed; I have been too close to all of them far too often to be\nthus deceived. In my judgment Cijfer can be dismissed as well.” Why,\nif not because of closeness? But if she is a chem — which presumably\nan inhuma couldn’t imitate — this would be an explanation.\n\nIf Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-02T18:28:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 01/12/2012, ?s 22:34, Andrew Mason escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a small thing, but I think an interesting one. The question\nhas been raised in the past why, apart from Marble, there appear to be\nno chems on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be that the plan of Pas is to send bios to Blue, not chems. Chems seem to have started off as slaves - in the sense that they need no sustenance and their roles are determined by others. They are well suited to the Whorl, where the conditions are not too rough for their mechanical nature. But Blue or Green have no roads, nor controlled humidity, so even a possible function for them as heavy workers would seem to be limited." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later (RTTW 9), again wondering about who might be an inhumu/a, the\nRajan says “Hide, Vadsig, Aanvagen, Beroep, and Azijin can be\ndismissed; I have been too close to all of them far too often to be\nthus deceived. In my judgment Cijfer can be dismissed as well.” Why,\nif not because of closeness? But if she is a chem — which presumably\nan inhuma couldn’t imitate — this would be an explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But shouldn't the wording then be more like 'of course' or even 'if I'm correct' rather than 'in my judgement', which, to me, suggests it is a complex matter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That one is immensely suggesting (suggestive?), agreed. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-03T14:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: That one is immensely suggesting (suggestive?), agreed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto.\n\nGoing back to Wolfe's earliest work, is there any theme more pervasive and significant than\nthe mystery of personal identity? I think Andrew has uncovered a previously undetectetd\nexample. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-03T22:10:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a small thing, but I think an interesting one. The question\nhas been raised in the past why, apart from Marble, there appear to be\nno chems on Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may be that the plan of Pas is to send bios to Blue, not chems. Chems seem to have started off as slaves - in the sense that they need no sustenance and their roles are determined by others. They are well suited to the Whorl, where the conditions are not too rough for their mechanical nature. But Blue or Green have no roads, nor controlled humidity, so even a possible function for them as heavy workers would seem to be limited." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's possible, but my point was that we didn't really need such an\nexplanation, given that there don't seem to be many chems on the Whorl\neither. Actually, my impression is that Pas was fundamentally pro-chem\n- Hammerstone says he is the chems' god (understandable, perhaps, if\nhe was artificial in some way himself). While on Urth they had been\ntreated basically as machines, he wanted them to be more than that -\nchemical persons - and for this reason devised the quasi-sexual method\nof reproduction (which seems to be new: Marble's account of her origin\nimplies she was mass-produced). There's a suggestion somewhere that\nhis plan has gone wrong, because the gender rations are wrong and so\nnot enough children have been produced.\n\nI wouldn't have thought Pas intended the chems to be abandoned when\nthe expedition reached Blue, but if, as it appears (though it's not\nentirely clear) he intended the voyage to continue further, he may\nhave meant them to stay with the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Later (RTTW 9), again wondering about who might be an inhumu/a, the\nRajan says “Hide, Vadsig, Aanvagen, Beroep, and Azijin can be\ndismissed; I have been too close to all of them far too often to be\nthus deceived. In my judgment Cijfer can be dismissed as well.” Why,\nif not because of closeness? But if she is a chem — which presumably\nan inhuma couldn’t imitate — this would be an explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But shouldn't the wording then be more like 'of course' or even 'if I'm correct' rather than 'in my judgement', which, to me, suggests it is a complex matter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I say presumably, and the Rajan would have to presume it as well\n- I guess the question 'can an inhuma imitate a chem?' has never\nactually been put to the test. (How distinctive do chems look? The\nsoldiers certainly have a distinctive appearance, with skin of unusual\ncolours; and Marble has lost her skin, so looks like a conventional\nrobot. But ordinary civilian chems seem to look like humans at first\nglance - Marble, when young, was able to pose for Molpe. I take it one\ncan work out they are chems quite easily, from the way they move,\netc., but it wouldn't be obvious at first sight.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That one is immensely suggesting (suggestive?), agreed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50C69757.1050209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-11T02:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/3/2012 5:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nIf Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How are those names pronounced: Cypher? Wiser? That might be suggestive too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-14T22:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "<50C69757.1050209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 12/3/2012 5:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How are those names pronounced: Cypher? Wiser? That might be suggestive too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's about it, I think, though the 'i' sound isn't precisely the\nsame as an English one. 'Cijfer', it seems, means 'digit' (as in 1,\n2, 3...) and 'Wijzer' means 'pointing device', and can include a clock\nhand or a compass needle. While this is not an improbable name for a\nsea-captain, both names would fit mechanical people. (Though it is\nhard to tell with Dorpian names: 'Vadsig' apparently means 'lazy'.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2E108C15-44F0-48DA-95AE-C9D1FF86DD3E@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-12-14T22:46:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has someone posted this yet?\n\nhttp://io9.com/5968344/gene-wolfes-out-of-print-classics-now-available-as-e+books" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CBACDE.3010404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-14T22:49:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2012 5:45 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/2012 5:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How are those names pronounced: Cypher? Wiser? That might be suggestive too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's about it, I think, though the 'i' sound isn't precisely the\nsame as an English one. 'Cijfer', it seems, means 'digit' (as in 1,\n2, 3...) and 'Wijzer' means 'pointing device', and can include a clock\nhand or a compass needle. While this is not an improbable name for a\nsea-captain, both names would fit mechanical people. (Though it is\nhard to tell with Dorpian names: 'Vadsig' apparently means 'lazy'.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aha. Thanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CBADF0.5020603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-14T22:53:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "<2E108C15-44F0-48DA-95AE-C9D1FF86DD3E@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reading about The Wizard Knight reminds me. Anybody have an opinion on \nthe audiobook?\n\nI listened to a part of it by accident recently (having never listened \nto it before) and realized that the narrator is a former coworker and \nfriend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2012 5:46 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nHas someone posted this yet?\n\nhttp://io9.com/5968344/gene-wolfes-out-of-print-classics-now-available-as-e+books\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-15T02:21:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "<50CBACDE.3010404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 14/12/2012, ?s 22:49, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2012 5:45 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/3/2012 5:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How are those names pronounced: Cypher? Wiser? That might be suggestive too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's about it, I think, though the 'i' sound isn't precisely the\nsame as an English one. 'Cijfer', it seems, means 'digit' (as in 1,\n2, 3...) and 'Wijzer' means 'pointing device', and can include a clock\nhand or a compass needle. While this is not an improbable name for a\nsea-captain, both names would fit mechanical people. (Though it is\nhard to tell with Dorpian names: 'Vadsig' apparently means 'lazy'.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aha. Thanks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, sorry, I'd missed this. Not that I have much of a sprachgef?hl for Dutch, but Andrew is right - I'd have said cijfer = number and wijzer = one/that which indicates [something], but his definitions are better. The pronunciation of ij varies a lot and (independently) may or may not be the same as that of ei. English aye is one of the alternatives, though the 'correct' one starts with the first vowel of 'ever', rather than the vowel of 'car' which we find in 'aye'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CBDFC0.2080604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-15T02:26:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Notes: Chems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2012 9:21 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 14/12/2012, ?s 22:49, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/14/2012 5:45 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 12/3/2012 5:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If Cijfer is a chem her husband, Wijzer, must be as well. In the light\nof this it may be significant that in the final battle he killed five\ninhumi, “twice strangling one with each hand”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How are those names pronounced: Cypher? Wiser? That might be suggestive too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's about it, I think, though the 'i' sound isn't precisely the\nsame as an English one. 'Cijfer', it seems, means 'digit' (as in 1,\n2, 3...) and 'Wijzer' means 'pointing device', and can include a clock\nhand or a compass needle. While this is not an improbable name for a\nsea-captain, both names would fit mechanical people. (Though it is\nhard to tell with Dorpian names: 'Vadsig' apparently means 'lazy'.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aha. Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, sorry, I'd missed this. Not that I have much of a sprachgef?hl for Dutch, but Andrew is right - I'd have said cijfer = number and wijzer = one/that which indicates [something], but his definitions are better. The pronunciation of ij varies a lot and (independently) may or may not be the same as that of ei. English aye is one of the alternatives, though the 'correct' one starts with the first vowel of 'ever', rather than the vowel of 'car' which we find in 'aye'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little joke there, isn't it: the male is named after the stiff \npointer, while the female is pointed at." } ] }, { "message_id": "<91766084-839C-4A56-9AFC-1A6212E4EF5F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Darth Ed", "address": "darthed77 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T20:20:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "<2E108C15-44F0-48DA-95AE-C9D1FF86DD3E@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nHas someone posted this yet?\n\nhttp://io9.com/5968344/gene-wolfes-out-of-print-classics-now-available-as-e+books" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The official announcement is at\nhttp://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/12/19-gene-wolfe-books-now-available-again-in-ebook\n\nTor announced back in April that they were going DRM-free, but I'm finding it very hard to find any evidence that Wolfe's ebooks are in fact DRM-free prior to purchasing them. Does anyone know for sure?\n\nThanks,\nEd" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<810364B9-AF81-4439-A2E2-D0001A0A289E@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-12-18T16:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "<91766084-839C-4A56-9AFC-1A6212E4EF5F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The new ones that I have looked at, like Castleview, are drm free. I don't know about the ones that were up before, like the best of gene wolfe, if they have been converted.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Darth Ed wrote:\nOn Dec 14, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Has someone posted this yet?\n\nhttp://io9.com/5968344/gene-wolfes-out-of-print-classics-now-available-as-e+books" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The official announcement is at\nhttp://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/12/19-gene-wolfe-books-now-available-again-in-ebook\n\nTor announced back in April that they were going DRM-free, but I'm finding it very hard to find any evidence that Wolfe's ebooks are in fact DRM-free prior to purchasing them. Does anyone know for sure?\n\nThanks,\nEd\n\n-- \nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "steve roh", "address": "sroh98 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-26T21:59:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "<810364B9-AF81-4439-A2E2-D0001A0A289E@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tor announced back in April that they were going DRM-free, but I'm finding\nit very hard to find any evidence that Wolfe's ebooks are in fact DRM-free\nprior to purchasing them. Does anyone know for sure?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From what I can tell, they are DRM-free but not \"free free\". The lack of\nDRM protection is just a convenience for people so they can use on their\nown personal multiple devices freely. The books have a \"please don't share\nor distribute this content\" request in the copyright section, it's based on\nthe honor code." } ] }, { "message_id": "<301CBF41-6B86-4039-9254-9061CCE354A1@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-27T10:17:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe e-books", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/12/2012, ?s 21:59, steve roh escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tor announced back in April that they were going DRM-free, but I'm finding it very hard to find any evidence that Wolfe's ebooks are in fact DRM-free prior to purchasing them. Does anyone know for sure?\n\nFrom what I can tell, they are DRM-free but not \"free free\". The lack of DRM protection is just a convenience for people so they can use on their own personal multiple devices freely. The books have a \"please don't share or distribute this content\" request in the copyright section, it's based on the honor code." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure thing. The concern is specifically about DRM, which in the eyes of many is an unacceptable way to enforce copyright. " } ] } ] }