{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6331", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6331, "subject": "Charles Williams", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2012-12-17T15:30:05+00:00", "last": "2012-12-17T22:51:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T15:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a brief\nlook online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I thought\nthere was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some input.\nAny suggestions for a novel of his to start with?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T15:51:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for Tim\nPowers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis has\nan excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On Stories*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an interview\nonce. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nHello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T15:54:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting! I am a fan of Tin Powers for sure, it would be great to check\nout his precursors. I notice that Last Call and The Greater Trumps have\nsome similarities, for example. Thanks for the input!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2012 10:51 AM, \"Daniel Petersen\" <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nOh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for\nTim Powers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis\nhas an excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On Stories\n*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an\ninterview once. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T16:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, those were two novels by each of them that I hadn't yet read, so I\nread them both recently, hoping for resonances. My first impression is\nthat they each took their own uniquely weird take on the tarot (about\nwhich, though, I know little) with about zero overlap! That's probably the\nbest I've read by Powers so far - excellent. Williams's was a more minor\neffort in my opinion but had one of my all-time favourite theological moves\n(reminding me very much of the Wolfe's Outsider) and one of the best\nfreakish visions in the Williams canon - whole novel was worth it for that\nalone.\n\n(I was subsequently weirded out to see the tarot feature in Cormac\nMcCarthy's *Blood Meridian* as well!)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nInteresting! I am a fan of Tin Powers for sure, it would be great to check\nout his precursors. I notice that Last Call and The Greater Trumps have\nsome similarities, for example. Thanks for the input!\nOn Dec 17, 2012 10:51 AM, \"Daniel Petersen\" <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for\nTim Powers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis\nhas an excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On\nStories*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an\ninterview once. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T16:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That should have said \"Tim\" Powers, of course! I have only read *Last Call\n*and *The Anubis Gates*, but I liked them both quite a bit. I think that\nthe latter is better, overall, but the former got off to an engrossing\nstart. Have you read any of the sequels to *Last Call*? And what, out of\ncuriosity, was the treatment of Tarot in *Blood Meridian? *I haven't read\nanything by Cormac McCarthy.\n\nI think I might start with *War in Heaven* by Williams, or possibly *Descent\ninto Hell *...they seem to be two of his more acclaimed novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nYes, those were two novels by each of them that I hadn't yet read, so I\nread them both recently, hoping for resonances. My first impression is\nthat they each took their own uniquely weird take on the tarot (about\nwhich, though, I know little) with about zero overlap! That's probably the\nbest I've read by Powers so far - excellent. Williams's was a more minor\neffort in my opinion but had one of my all-time favourite theological moves\n(reminding me very much of the Wolfe's Outsider) and one of the best\nfreakish visions in the Williams canon - whole novel was worth it for that\nalone.\n\n(I was subsequently weirded out to see the tarot feature in Cormac\nMcCarthy's *Blood Meridian* as well!)\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting! I am a fan of Tin Powers for sure, it would be great to\ncheck out his precursors. I notice that Last Call and The Greater Trumps\nhave some similarities, for example. Thanks for the input!\nOn Dec 17, 2012 10:51 AM, \"Daniel Petersen\" <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for\nTim Powers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis\nhas an excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On\nStories*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an\ninterview once. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T16:12:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Williams pretty much invented modern \"urban fantasy.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nThat should have said \"Tim\" Powers, of course! I have only read *Last\nCall *and *The Anubis Gates*, but I liked them both quite a bit. I think\nthat the latter is better, overall, but the former got off to an engrossing\nstart. Have you read any of the sequels to *Last Call*? And what, out\nof curiosity, was the treatment of Tarot in *Blood Meridian? *I haven't\nread anything by Cormac McCarthy.\n\nI think I might start with *War in Heaven* by Williams, or possibly *Descent\ninto Hell *...they seem to be two of his more acclaimed novels.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, those were two novels by each of them that I hadn't yet read, so I\nread them both recently, hoping for resonances. My first impression is\nthat they each took their own uniquely weird take on the tarot (about\nwhich, though, I know little) with about zero overlap! That's probably the\nbest I've read by Powers so far - excellent. Williams's was a more minor\neffort in my opinion but had one of my all-time favourite theological moves\n(reminding me very much of the Wolfe's Outsider) and one of the best\nfreakish visions in the Williams canon - whole novel was worth it for that\nalone.\n\n(I was subsequently weirded out to see the tarot feature in Cormac\nMcCarthy's *Blood Meridian* as well!)\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting! I am a fan of Tin Powers for sure, it would be great to\ncheck out his precursors. I notice that Last Call and The Greater Trumps\nhave some similarities, for example. Thanks for the input!\nOn Dec 17, 2012 10:51 AM, \"Daniel Petersen\" <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for\nTim Powers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis\nhas an excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On\nStories*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an\ninterview once. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T16:52:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Daniel Petersen\n wrote:\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an interview\nonce. Anyone know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " JJ: So Lewis and Chesterton would have been among the formative influences\n in your paradigm.\n\n GW: Oh yes, very definitely.\n\n JJ: Could you name others, within the area of theology and Christianity.\n\n GW: The problem with this it is hard to see where to stop. Later you say,\n \"Gee, I should have included so and so,\" and you didn't think of that\n person at that time. J.R.R. Tolkein, just to start with. Charles Williams,\n not as much as the others, but to some extent. David Lindsay's A Voyage to\n Arcturus, which is really strange, and I think very theologically\n oriented. Much of the theology I disagree with, but I thought it was\n marvelous as a work of fiction. It is a marvelous example of someone's\n expressing his theological beliefs in a novel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CF4F0C.2070205@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2012-12-17T16:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would definitely start with /War in Heaven/, which does indeed seem to \nhave influenced Powers and Blaylock. The two best of his novels are, in \nmy opinion, /Descent into Hell/ and /All Hallows Eve/, but they are much \nless accessible than /War/.\n\nWilliams' poetry is worth a look, but many people find it impenetrable. \nIt's certainly old-fashioned.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2012 10:30 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nHello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a \nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, \nand I thought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would \nhave some input. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T17:04:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "<50CF4F0C.2070205@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando Gouvea wrote:\n I would definitely start with *War in Heaven*," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Several good reasons to start here, including it's Williams's first novel.\nThere is a definite development of the density of his novels as they go\nalong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two best of his novels are, in my opinion, *Descent into Hell* and *All\nHallows Eve*," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not surprisingly, these are his last novels and quite dense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Williams' poetry is worth a look, but many people find it impenetrable.\nIt's certainly old-fashioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If by \"old-fashioned\" you mean \"early 20th-century modernist,\" I must\nagree. There is a strong kinship between Williams' poetry (I refer to the\nArthurian poetry, which is all I have read) and Eliot's work. (Eliot, by\nthe way, praised Williams's novels and wrote an introduction to at least\none of them.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CF57C0.9090402@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2012-12-17T17:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2012 12:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFernando Gouvea wrote:\n\n I would definitely start with /War in Heaven/,\n\n\nSeveral good reasons to start here, including it's Williams's first \nnovel. There is a definite development of the density of his novels as \nthey go along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the first is actually /Shadows of Ecstasy/, though it was \npublished only later. And probably should have remained in the drawer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The two best of his novels are, in my opinion, /Descent into Hell/\n and /All Hallows Eve/,\n\n\nNot surprisingly, these are his last novels and quite dense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And also the ones that read better if the reader understands Williams's \nrather strange theological ideas. That said, /Descent/ is a wonderful \nstudy of the notion of damnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Williams' poetry is worth a look, but many people find it\n impenetrable. It's certainly old-fashioned.\n\n\nIf by \"old-fashioned\" you mean \"early 20th-century modernist,\" I must \nagree. There is a strong kinship between Williams' poetry (I refer to \nthe Arthurian poetry, which is all I have read) and Eliot's work. \n(Eliot, by the way, praised Williams's novels and wrote an \nintroduction to at least one of them.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a good description, though there are some late-Romantic \nthings there as well. What's most old-fashioned about it is that it is \nintended as narrative, rather than as an exploration of the personal, \nwhich is where most poetry seems to be these days.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor and Chair\nDept. of Mathematics and Statistics\nColby College Editor, Carus Mathematical Monographs\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/maareviews\n\nFood for thought is no substitute for the real thing.\n -- Walt Kelly, \"Potluck Pogo\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-17T17:53:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read the rest of Powers's 'Faultlines' trilogy, but I greatly\nlook forward to it - everybody says they peter out a bit, but I'm just\nexcited to see what the heck he's going to do with time, space, ghosts, and\nso on. Wonderfully inventive and playful imagination in usually crisp and\nenjoyable prose.\n\nBlood Meridian has an extended tarot reading scene by circus performers\nround a campfire that seems to suggest a lot philosophically (incredibly\ndense novel). I read an academic paper that very convincingly argued that\none of the main tarot predictions came true in detail late in the novel,\nbringing the novel out of strict realism, the paper argued, and into\nromance and myth.\n\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: Williams pretty much invented modern \"urban fantasy.\"\n\nYes! And this only recently dawned on me. And Lewis's essay brings this\nout very effectively.\n\n\n GW: The problem with this it is hard to see where to stop. Later you say,\n \"Gee, I should have included so and so,\" and you didn't think of that\n person at that time. J.R.R. Tolkein, just to start with. Charles\nWilliams,\n not as much as the others, but to some extent.\n\nThanks, Gwern! Knew I'd seen that.\n\n\nAnd for the record, I LOVE *some* of Charles Williams's poetry, especially\nin the Arthurian cycle. I mean, heck, at one point both Merlin and\nLancelot are werewolves! (Lots of things in this cycle remind me of Wolfe\ntoo.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nThat should have said \"Tim\" Powers, of course! I have only read *Last\nCall *and *The Anubis Gates*, but I liked them both quite a bit. I think\nthat the latter is better, overall, but the former got off to an engrossing\nstart. Have you read any of the sequels to *Last Call*? And what, out\nof curiosity, was the treatment of Tarot in *Blood Meridian? *I haven't\nread anything by Cormac McCarthy.\n\nI think I might start with *War in Heaven* by Williams, or possibly *Descent\ninto Hell *...they seem to be two of his more acclaimed novels.\n\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, those were two novels by each of them that I hadn't yet read, so I\nread them both recently, hoping for resonances. My first impression is\nthat they each took their own uniquely weird take on the tarot (about\nwhich, though, I know little) with about zero overlap! That's probably the\nbest I've read by Powers so far - excellent. Williams's was a more minor\neffort in my opinion but had one of my all-time favourite theological moves\n(reminding me very much of the Wolfe's Outsider) and one of the best\nfreakish visions in the Williams canon - whole novel was worth it for that\nalone.\n\n(I was subsequently weirded out to see the tarot feature in Cormac\nMcCarthy's *Blood Meridian* as well!)\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting! I am a fan of Tin Powers for sure, it would be great to\ncheck out his precursors. I notice that Last Call and The Greater Trumps\nhave some similarities, for example. Thanks for the input!\nOn Dec 17, 2012 10:51 AM, \"Daniel Petersen\" <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh goodness, yes! In terms of sheer intensity and originality of\nimagination, I put him up there with Wolfe and Lafferty and Lewis and\nTolkien (as a theological myth-maker). And I think he possibly veers more\ninto *weird* fiction (ala Lovecraft, Howard, Hodgson, Machen, etc.) than\nthe others. Some of his visionary passages are flesh-crawling in their\nnuminous grotesquery. He's not a great prose writer as a novelist and the\npassages can come and go as to stylistic excellence. But overall\nincredibly enjoyable to me. His tone is very middle-to-upper-class English\nand and the settings are almost Edwardian - a bit like Chesterton or Sayers\nif they were writing weird fiction. In fact, Williams is one of the early\npractitioners of 'Noird' fiction (noir detective + weird), at least in the\nnovel *War In Heaven*. In some ways too he's a bit of a prototype for\nTim Powers's version of 'urban fantasy' or 'urban magical realism'. Lewis\nhas an excellent essay on Williams's fiction in the collection *On\nStories*.\n\nI thought I remembered Wolfe mentioning Williams favourably in an\ninterview once. Anyone know?\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hello! Is anyone familiar with the work of Charles Williams? From a\nbrief look online, he seems to have some similarities to MacDonald, and I\nthought there was a good chance some of you Wolfeans (?) would have some\ninput. Any suggestions for a novel of his to start with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2012-12-17T22:51:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Charles Williams", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 18 Dec 2012, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nYes, those were two novels by each of them that I hadn't yet read, so I\nread them both recently, hoping for resonances. My first impression is\nthat they each took their own uniquely weird take on the tarot (about\nwhich, though, I know little) with about zero overlap! That's probably the\nbest I've read by Powers so far - excellent. Williams's was a more minor\neffort in my opinion but had one of my all-time favourite theological moves\n(reminding me very much of the Wolfe's Outsider) and one of the best\nfreakish visions in the Williams canon - whole novel was worth it for that\nalone.\n\n(I was subsequently weirded out to see the tarot feature in Cormac\nMcCarthy's *Blood Meridian* as well!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agree with all the Williams recommendations (our uni library had \nhis complete set of novels). Sidetracking onto other tarot novels (this \nhas happened before, I think), Calvino and Eco.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] } ] }