{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6337", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6337, "subject": "Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2012-12-23T01:57:15+00:00", "last": "2012-12-26T14:45:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "steve roh", "address": "sroh98 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-23T01:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's occurred to me that the Green Man who Severian rescues in Book of the\nNew Sun, has possible interesting connections to Osiris.\n\nOsiris: green-skinned god of vegetation, wheat grew from his body\nGreen Man: green man whose body has been modified to grow algae as a\nnutrient source\n\nOsiris: killed by Typhon\nGreen Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian notes\nwill die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n\nAm I just imagining this?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-23T02:09:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think something like this could be accidental. All the more reason\nfor me to reread BOTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 22, 2012 8:57 PM, \"steve roh\" wrote:\nIt's occurred to me that the Green Man who Severian rescues in Book of the\nNew Sun, has possible interesting connections to Osiris.\n\nOsiris: green-skinned god of vegetation, wheat grew from his body\nGreen Man: green man whose body has been modified to grow algae as a\nnutrient source\n\nOsiris: killed by Typhon\nGreen Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian notes\nwill die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n\nAm I just imagining this?\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50D675AF.1050207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-23T03:08:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had forgotten Osiris was green, but I think you nailed it. The Green \nMan represents rebirth, as Osiris does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/22/2012 8:57 PM, steve roh wrote:\nIt's occurred to me that the Green Man who Severian rescues in Book of \nthe New Sun, has possible interesting connections to Osiris.\n\nOsiris: green-skinned god of vegetation, wheat grew from his body\nGreen Man: green man whose body has been modified to grow algae as a \nnutrient source\n\nOsiris: killed by Typhon\nGreen Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian \nnotes will die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n\nAm I just imagining this?\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50D67766.6060302@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-12-23T03:15:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/22/2012 7:57 PM, steve roh wrote:\nOsiris: killed by Typhon\nGreen Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian notes\nwill die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n\nAm I just imagining this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes.\n\nTyphon already was victorious; he conquered Urth and many nearby worlds. \nThe diminishment of the sun led to his downfall, but that same \ndiminishment leads to Ash's timeline, away from Green. Typhon promoted \nthe arts of the alteration of mankind and other living things, which he \nbent to evil ends but which also yield up the Green Man's chlorophyillic \nunion with the sun so that mankind no longer need kill to live (or so we \nspeculate).\n\nNo Typhon, no Green Man either." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50D678B0.7000209@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-12-23T03:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "<50D675AF.1050207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/22/2012 9:08 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI had forgotten Osiris was green, but I think you nailed it. The Green\nMan represents rebirth, as Osiris does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horus, the posthumously fathered son of Osiris, represented rebirth. \nOsiris stays dead and represented the flesh of the dead nourishing life.\n\nIf the images are taken from Egyptian myth, they are remixed with themes \nas thoroughly as in the Student and his Son." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50D67D46.1060109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-12-23T03:40:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "<50D678B0.7000209@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/22/2012 10:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/22/2012 9:08 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had forgotten Osiris was green, but I think you nailed it. The Green\nMan represents rebirth, as Osiris does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horus, the posthumously fathered son of Osiris, represented rebirth. \nOsiris stays dead and represented the flesh of the dead nourishing life.\n\nIf the images are taken from Egyptian myth, they are remixed with \nthemes as thoroughly as in the Student and his Son." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, of course they are! interesting that there is a dead son in such \nclose proximity when Severian meets Typhon.\n\nTyphon had a second chance at \"winning.\" He lost." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "steve roh", "address": "sroh98 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-23T08:18:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "<50D675AF.1050207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to be clear: by referring to Typhon being victorious, I mean in his\nattempt to make Severian kneel before him and swear an oath to Typhon upon\nthe claw talisman. I understand Typhon had already conquered Urth by that\npoint. But if Severian had sworn that oath to Typhon, then there would be\nno New Sun, and the future of Master Ash (white) would have come into\nbeing, instead of the future of the Green Man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/22/2012 7:57 PM, steve roh wrote:\n* Osiris: killed by Typhon\n*>* Green Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian\nnotes\n*>* will die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n*>\n* Am I just imagining this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* Yes.\nTyphon already was victorious; he conquered Urth and many nearby worlds.\nThe diminishment of the sun led to his downfall, but that same\ndiminishment leads to Ash's timeline, away from Green. Typhon promoted\nthe arts of the alteration of mankind and other living things, which he\nbent to evil ends but which also yield up the Green Man's chlorophyillic\nunion with the sun so that mankind no longer need kill to live (or so we\nspeculate).\nNo Typhon, no Green Man either.\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational\nIntelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Strange how after 25 years of reading this story multiple times, this kind\nof lightbulb moment still happens. One of the reasons I love this material." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:08 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n I had forgotten Osiris was green, but I think you nailed it. The Green\nMan represents rebirth, as Osiris does.\n\nOn 12/22/2012 8:57 PM, steve roh wrote:\n\nIt's occurred to me that the Green Man who Severian rescues in Book of the\nNew Sun, has possible interesting connections to Osiris.\n\n Osiris: green-skinned god of vegetation, wheat grew from his body\nGreen Man: green man whose body has been modified to grow algae as a\nnutrient source\n\n Osiris: killed by Typhon\nGreen Man: comes from future possible Urth, an Urth which Severian notes\nwill die (never come to be) if the tyrant Typhon is victorious\n\n Am I just imagining this?\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-24T14:38:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If the images are taken from Egyptian myth, they are remixed with themes \nas thoroughly as in the Student and his Son." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the connection Steve Roh sees is real and Jeff's idea explains it. Wolfe does\nconflate earthly mythology in his fiction but this is a reflection of the real world\nconflations which have happened throughout the history of myth on earth. I see it\nportrayed graphically in Long/Short Sun where Whorl gods are encoded in \"cards\" which\nare shuffled and redealt into new god combinations on The Whorl, Blue and perhaps Green.\n\nIn this case, there is a real Celtic deity/figure who actually goes by the name of The Green Man.\nThis character has clear and direct mythological connections to Pan and to Dionysus. And all \nthese deities these have mythological roots in Osiris as can be found in various website references. \nE.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris-Dionysus and http://whisperingworlds.com/wiccan/wiccan_god.php\n\nI am pretty sure Wolfe was aware of these connections as he wrote the Sun series. Therefore\nthe Egyptian mythological connection between Osiris and Typhon-Set may well have an intentional\necho in Wolfe's Green Man and Typhon.\n\nIn the past I've noted that I think the gods of the Whorl tend more toward Egyptian forms in contrast to \nthe Greco-Roman style of the god-beings and heroes of Urth. Greco-Roman mythology has roots and inspiration \nfrom Egyptian mythology. This discussion even more firmly convinces me that Long/Short Sun was meant almost \nas an origin myth/story to help us understand the events on Urth/Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: interesting that there is a dead son in such close proximity when Severian meets Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh good catch, David.\n\nActually the story of father Osiris and brother/uncle Typhon Set and son/nephew Horus is jumbled but similar \nto the Greek story of uncle/monster Typhon, father/nephew Zeus and sons Hermes and Dionysus. There is murder \nand dismemberment and resurrection via body parts in both stories.\n\nI think we find another jumble of it on The Whorl with Typhon-Pas, his electronic murder, dismembering and \nreassembly. This is followed by the confusing paternity/deity connection with Pas, Silk and \nQuadrafons/Dionysus/The Outsider. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit precursor trinity, I think. \n\nJeff Wilson >No Typhon, no Green Man either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve Roh: But if Severian had sworn that oath to Typhon, then there would be no New Sun, and the future of\nMaster Ash (white) would have come into being, instead of the future of the Green Man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point and good rebuttal. I see both as relevant.\n\nIt could be like saying, no Egypt, no Greek and Roman civilizations. No Greco-Roman empires, no north/west\nEuropean ascendency. And of course it was the north/west European ascendancy which really spread Christianity\nacross the globe.\n\nBut for north/west Europe and Christianity to ascend, Egypt and Osiris had to fade then Greece, Rome and Zeus, \nDionysus and Pan had to fade. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<50D8C756.5010709@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-12-24T21:21:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/24/2012 8:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIt could be like saying, no Egypt, no Greek and Roman civilizations. No Greco-Roman empires, no north/west\nEuropean ascendency. And of course it was the north/west European ascendancy which really spread Christianity\nacross the globe.\n\nBut for north/west Europe and Christianity to ascend, Egypt and Osiris had to fade then Greece, Rome and Zeus,\nDionysus and Pan had to fade. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The non-fading of the unrelated religions in India and China fail to \nsupport this hypothesis of Christian Manifest Destiny." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2012-12-26T14:45:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osiris = the Green Man in BOTNS?", "in_reply_to": "<50D8C756.5010709@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it was the north/west European ascendancy which really spread Christianity across the globe.\nBut for north/west Europe and Christianity to ascend, Egypt and Osiris had to fade then Greece, \nRome and Zeus, Dionysus and Pan had to fade. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The non-fading of the unrelated religions in India and China fail to \nsupport this hypothesis of Christian Manifest Destiny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since Alexander's empire reached almost to India, I think the religions of the region might have\nhad some impact on Christianity. Many think the Brahman-Vishnu-Shiva trinity of Hinduism may \nhave influenced the later Christian trinity. \n\nBut yes, on earth, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the further eastern Asian religions survived the\nascendency of Christianity in ways that Egyptian, Greco-Roman and Pagan/Gnostic beliefs did not. \nDoes Wolfe address this for Urth, in BotNS?\n\nI think maybe he does in his reference to the Xanthic lands.\n\nIt could be argued that Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. are more spiritually advanced religions\nin comparison to the more primitive, naturist, polytheistic beliefs which preceded them. Does \nWolfe think of them as false or inferior beliefs which must fade in the face of Christianity?\nOr does he think of them as parallels to Christianity; different paths to the same destination?\n\nI dunno. But maybe the mystery and dearth of information we are given about the Xanthic lands\nare Wolfe's way of saying he doesn't know himself. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }