{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6343", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6343, "subject": "Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "messages": 36, "voices": 10, "first": "2013-02-06T13:52:38+00:00", "last": "2013-02-07T22:29:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T13:52:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the clients at\nthe time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had\nthe vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while writing *\nTBONS*, that would be most impressive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T13:56:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly\nconnect that up. -DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nIs there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the clients\nat the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe\nhad the vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while\nwriting *TBONS*, that would be most impressive.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:01:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in\nthe story (I am just nearing the end of *Return to the Whorl *for the first\ntime), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would\nreally love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather\nthan just tacked on ... these really overt references to *TBONS *are taking\naway from my enjoyment of *Short Sun *a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nI seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly\nconnect that up. -DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin ", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:07:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the \ntime of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the \nvision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while writing TBONS, \nthat would be most impressive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was always with a group.\nI don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. \n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<46CB276A141D4795B9C3E92114EB3A3F@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be a\none-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started\nwriting his own memoir after giving him some writing tips.\n\nAlso, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the *Whorl*.\nIs it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and time when\nvisiting Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin \n\n > Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the\nclients at the\n > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had\nthe\n > vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while writing\n*TBONS*,\n > that would be most impressive.\n Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in the\nlowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever encountering\nseveral clients held together, and Silk/Horn was always with a group.\n\nI don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had to\nmake a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the Whorl.\nAnything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as he said it would\nhave been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51126839.70207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that \nwould certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention \nimportant things when speaking to one another, because they have no \nmotivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nThe scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to \nbe a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian \nstarted writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips.\n\nAlso, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the \n/Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space \nand time when visiting Urth?\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin \n > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the\n clients at the\n > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If\n Wolfe had the\n > vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while\n writing /TBONS/,\n > that would be most impressive.\n Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in\n the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever\n encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was\n always with a group.\n\n I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had\n to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the\n Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as\n he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:29:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics of the latter books when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very strange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition by the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a constraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be out of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me).\nBut I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They appear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a connection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought. \nOne may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely seems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter books. \n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in the story (I am just nearing the end of Return to the Whorl for the first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to TBONS are taking away from my enjoyment of Short Sun a bit.\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nI seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly connect that up. -DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nIs there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while writing TBONS, that would be most impressive.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:30:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<51126839.70207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also thought (I can't remember quite why) that Typhon sent out more than\none, possibly many, Whorls. I might be totally wrong about this, but if it\nwas something of a major campaign of colonization, with many ships, he\nmight be less likely to mention one specifically. Also, if the events of\nthe *Short Sun *and *Long Sun *are occurring at the same time, with no time\ntravel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative\nto his awakening, which is another reason he might not mention it to\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that\nwould certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention\nimportant things when speaking to one another, because they have no\nmotivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much.\n\n\nOn 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be\na one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started\nwriting his own memoir after giving him some writing tips.\n\nAlso, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the\n/Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and\ntime when visiting Urth?\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n *From:* Antonin Scriabin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the\n\n clients at the\n > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If\n Wolfe had the\n > vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while\n writing /TBONS/,\n\n > that would be most impressive.\n Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in\n the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever\n encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was\n always with a group.\n\n I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had\n to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the\n Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as\n he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3324954A-9216-47AA-B02D-3A4FEECC79BF@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:32:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<51126839.70207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In which they behave like real people instead of book characters!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps \"tacked on\" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find *Short\nSun *to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the\ninsertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression.\nStarting off *Long Sun *for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl?\nWhat time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is\nthe Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up\nto get there, so when the \"Typhon is Pas\" moment *did *come, it completely\nblew me away. By the time the *Short Sun *rolls around, however, we know\nall these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red\nSun Whorl and the rest of the elements of *Long Sun. *The mysteries of\nBlue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to\nfind our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other\nworks, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them\nthan we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of *Short Sun *is\nintentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting\nmore *Long\n*and *New*?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, wrote:\nI don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics of the latter\nbooks when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very\nstrange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition\nby the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a\nconstraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be\nout of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me).\nBut I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They\nappear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a\nconnection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought.\nOne may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely\nseems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter\nbooks.\n\nAnt?nio\n\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin \nescreveu:\n\nIt also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in\nthe story (I am just nearing the end of *Return to the Whorl *for the\nfirst time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I\nwould really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning,\nrather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to *TBONS *are\ntaking away from my enjoyment of *Short Sun *a bit.\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly\nconnect that up. -DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the\nclients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If\nWolfe had the vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back\nwhile writing *TBONS*, that would be most impressive.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:39:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:30, Antonin Scriabin escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if the events of the Short Sun and Long Sun are occurring at the same time, with no time travel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative to his awakening," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The conclusion is correct, but the premises aren't those. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360162739.29676.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T14:58:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly---both those reasons.\n\n\nAnd also, because of the sheer scale of the project, it's not like Typhon, upon waking, is going to ask after the Whorls. How would he even phrase such a question to make sense to a stranger? \n\n\n\"What of my Whorls? Has there been any word from the Fomalhaut expedition?\" That has a wonderful pulpy feel, but wouldn't have been right, and would prove a much, much tighter connection than we understand to be possible.\n\n\nPlus, Typhon may well have been able to mentally \"detect\" that Severian didn't know anything on the topic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:30 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\n\nI also thought (I can't remember quite why) that Typhon sent out more than one, possibly many, Whorls. I might be totally wrong about this, but if it was something of a major campaign of colonization, with many ships, he might be less likely to mention one specifically. Also, if the events of the Short Sun and Long Sun are occurring at the same time, with no time travel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative to his awakening, which is another reason he might not mention it to Severian.\n\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nI'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that would certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another, because they have no motivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nThe scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the /Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and time when visiting Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n? ? *From:* Antonin Scriabin \n? ? > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the\n\n? ? clients at the\n? ? > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If\n? ? Wolfe had the\n? ? > vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? ? writing /TBONS/," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "? ? > that would be most impressive.\n? ? Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in\n? ? the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever\n? ? encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was\n? ? always with a group.\n\n? ? I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had\n? ? to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the\n? ? Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as\n? ? he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian.\n\n? ? - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n? ? _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360162909.48269.YahooMailNeo@web84511.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<3324954A-9216-47AA-B02D-3A4FEECC79BF@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely.\n\nAlthough this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were always missing obvious opportunities to tell each other \"Oh, so-and-so's missing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc.\" It got to be laughable. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: \"entonio at gmail.com\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In which they behave like real people instead of book characters!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360163338.62931.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:08:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With Wolfe, I find that \"stapled\" things are often otherwise the most deeply buried, fundamental truths. Consider UOTNS, even granting that it must contain some creative ornamentation (such as the nature of Apheta and her world).\n\nYes, if you miss the signs---as I did at first---Typhon's appearance in LS seems arbitrary. But you have described the work Wolfe did (and requires of us) to put him in.\n\nSS definitely feels less \"literary.\" I'd like to ascribe this to the personalities of the \"writers,\" but perhaps also to Wolfe's decreasing need to keep explaining things and find ways to explain the same things. Much of the understory involves \"ghosts\" of a type that are not prominent in NS but do feature in LS. We're supposed to largely \"get it\" by that point. And that's perhaps why I find SS to be the most baffling of them all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:38 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\n\nPerhaps \"tacked on\" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find Short Sun to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. Starting off Long Sun for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up to get there, so when the \"Typhon is Pas\" moment did come, it completely blew me away. By the time the Short Sun rolls around, however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of Long Sun. The mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them than we" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of Short Sun is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting more Long and New?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, wrote:\n\nI don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics “of the latter books when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very strange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition by the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a constraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be out of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They appear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a connection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought.”\nOne may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely seems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter books.\n\nAnt?nio\n\n\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin escreveu:\n\n\nIt also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in the story (I am just nearing the end of Return to the Whorl for the first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to TBONS are taking away from my enjoyment of Short Sun a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\nI seriously doubt he did. “But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly connect that up. ?-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nIs there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn?” If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in this depth back while writing TBONS, that would be most impressive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:09:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<1360162909.48269.YahooMailNeo@web84511.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Wheel of Time suffers from this sickness as well. So much trouble,\nheartache, and death could have been averted if characters were just a\nteeny tiny bit more forthcoming with important information with one\nanother. >.<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nPrecisely.\n\nAlthough this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were\nalways missing obvious opportunities to tell each other \"Oh, so-and-so's\nmissing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc.\" It got to be laughable.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* \"entonio at gmail.com\" \n\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to\none another," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In which they behave like real people instead of book characters!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:12:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there a reference in *New Sun *to clients who admit themselves to the\nTower, or are otherwise there of their own free will? Silk/Horn is\nexplicitly one of these ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nThe Wheel of Time suffers from this sickness as well. So much trouble,\nheartache, and death could have been averted if characters were just a\nteeny tiny bit more forthcoming with important information with one\nanother. >.<\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Precisely.\n\nAlthough this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were\nalways missing obvious opportunities to tell each other \"Oh, so-and-so's\nmissing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc.\" It got to be laughable.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* \"entonio at gmail.com\" \n\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\nNo dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to\none another," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In which they behave like real people instead of book characters!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360164550.93066.YahooMailClassic@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't.\n\nWay more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc.\n\nLots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans.\n\n--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T15:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<1360164550.93066.YahooMailClassic@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more\ndreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow,\nrealist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful,\nto me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as\nimpressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real\nworld for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, \"Marc Aramini\" wrote:\nI always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't.\n\nWay more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into\ninhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff\nlegged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and\nOreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream\ntravel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the\nstory, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille\nringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc.\n\nLots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans.\n\n--- On *Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 6:38 AM\n\n Perhaps \"tacked on\" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find *Short\nSun *to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the\ninsertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression.\nStarting off *Long Sun *for example, mysteries abound. What is the\nWhorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How\nbig is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and\nbuild-up to get there, so when the \"Typhon is Pas\" moment *did *come, it\ncompletely blew me away. By the time the *Short Sun *rolls around,\nhowever, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection\nbetween the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of *Long Sun. *The\nmysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me\nbeyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in\ncomparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a\nbit less time on them than we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus\nof *Short Sun *is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault\nfor expecting more *Long *and *New*?\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360173283.81969.YahooMailClassic@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T17:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. I found Long Sun slower and less engrossing than Short Sun, and had way more fun parsing it, but the lack of consensus on even what happened in the books leads me to believe Short Sun is not universally appealing.\n\nspoilers on the interpretation of events as I sincerely and honestly believe them to be in the cycle:\n(the loose ends really are tied up - cannibal hybridizing trees turn Urth to hell; lianas steal their lifestuff and take over green, becoming the inefficient child race, the inhumi; our narrator of OBW reboots Silk and goes to reside in his hus while sitting under such a tree, Auk and Chenillle repair the lander and go to blue and are \"just missed\" by our narrator, who uses that lander later and gets Horn's ring back; the blind man in the sewers who dies is really the original blind son of Typhon who possessed Auk for so long (as Mamelta was Kypris and Silk's genetic mom?- the monarch's family stored in that room to recolonize Urth) the inhumi are doomed to revert back to liana without a fresh infusion of human stock, our later Silk in denial narrator uses his liana staff to cross space and time instead of another inhumi, Fava and Mora summon Hy in their dreams, and the real puzzle is ... does Severian spend a lot of time looking at faces in Typhon's\n mausoleum in his youth and seeing himself there, or not?)\n\n--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 7:34 AM\n\n\n\nThe number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. \nOn Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, \"Marc Aramini\" wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nI always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't.\n\nWay more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc.\n\nLots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans.\n\n--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 6:38 AM\n\n\n\nPerhaps \"tacked on\" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find Short Sun to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. Starting off Long Sun for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up to get there, so when the \"Typhon is Pas\" moment did come, it completely blew me away. By the time the Short Sun rolls around, however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of Long Sun. The mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them than we\n did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of Short Sun is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting more Long and New?\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360173926.47696.YahooMailNeo@web84510.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T18:05:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you have a point. Blue and Green are more open in a sense, since they are after all merely earthlike planets. The narrator need not \"leak\" the concepts of shadelow and nightside, and so on. As a result the narration is perhaps less interesting in a way: none of the narrators are in quite the box Severian and Silk's biographers are in. \n\n\nI don't see this as a loss, however. The mysteries are there nevertheless. It may be that our fixation with understanding the Mother and the Neighbors are a little too conditioned by the previous books, and the reader should \"reset\" to a narrated world like our own ancient one in which there may well be gods, demigods, and monsters---who knows? It's not like the planets were scanned by exogeographers of the Federation of Planets. Horn lives on a tiny island near a tiny town, and that's 100% of the Blue he knows before his travels. So Blue is both tiny/closed/intimate and vast/open/unknown. Hard to capture that.\n\nThink more of Latro and the Greeks the way Wolfe would write them---also likely to come from a tiny town on a tiny island, only to wander the Mediterranean or Asia, with gods just out of sight and monsters in the forest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:34 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\n\nThe number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. \nOn Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, \"Marc Aramini\" wrote:\n\nI always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc.\n\nLots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans.\n\n--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360174329.87139.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-06T18:12:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<1360173283.81969.YahooMailClassic@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're always a few steps ahead, Mark. :)\n\nIs there a consensus that it's Typhon's mausoleum? Does this suggest Severian \"looks like\" Typhon? Or someone else?\n\nAlso, do you think the stiff-legged \"bird-like\" person you mentioned is actually tree-related, and that's why he's stiff-legged — (not really birdlike at all, in other words)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 12:54 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\n\n\nOkay. I found Long Sun slower and less engrossing than Short Sun, and had way more fun parsing it, but the lack of consensus on even what happened in the books leads me to believe Short Sun is not universally appealing.\n\nspoilers on the interpretation of events as I sincerely and honestly believe them to be in the cycle:\n(the loose ends really are tied up - cannibal hybridizing trees turn Urth to hell; lianas steal their lifestuff and take over green, becoming the inefficient child race, the inhumi; our narrator of OBW reboots Silk and goes to reside in his hus while sitting under such a tree, Auk and Chenillle repair the lander and go to blue and are \"just missed\" by our narrator, who uses that lander later and gets Horn's ring back; the blind man in the sewers who dies is really the original blind son of Typhon who possessed Auk for so long (as Mamelta was Kypris and Silk's genetic mom?- the monarch's family stored in that room to recolonize Urth) the inhumi are doomed to revert back to liana without a fresh infusion of human stock, our later Silk in denial narrator uses his liana staff to cross space and time instead of another inhumi, Fava and Mora" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " summon Hy in their dreams, and the real puzzle is ... does Severian spend a lot of time looking at faces in Typhon's mausoleum in his youth and seeing himself there, or not?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 7:34 AM\n\n\nThe number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. \nOn Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, \"Marc Aramini\" wrote:\n\nI always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc.\n\nLots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans.\n\n--- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5112A128.4090903@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-02-06T18:30:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did think about it, but I had an impression that no. The only \"seed\" \nthat hints at possible visits of Silk/Horn\n(and my belief was that it could be indeed a \"seed\" that later grew in \nmind of Gene himself and possible\ngave him an idea to develop the connection in SS) is the remark that \nMaster Gurloes was a deep man trying\nto play simple, who wandered alone in the night, could stop suddenly, \nspeak with the invisible etc.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nIs there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the \nclients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be \nSilk/Horn? If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the \"Solar Cycle\" in \nthis depth back while writing /TBONS/, that would be most impressive.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1360176476.3119.YahooMailClassic@web160703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-02-06T18:47:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<1360174329.87139.YahooMailNeo@web84515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 10:12 AM\n\n\n\n\nYou're always a few steps ahead, Mark. :)\n\n\nIs there a consensus that it's Typhon's mausoleum? Does this suggest Severian \"looks like\" Typhon? Or someone else?\n\n\nAlso, do you think the stiff-legged \"bird-like\" person you mentioned is actually tree-related, and that's why he's stiff-legged — (not really birdlike at all, in other words)\n\nNo consensus on the mausoleum and if it is the infamous one of which Severian claims, \"I have seen my tomb and now go to lie in it\" or something to that effect, but that would certainly establish a very strange genetic relationship between Typhon and Severian that I had previously only been able to firmly ascribe only to Silk, as?Typhon's probable \"heir\". ?\n\nAs far as the stiff-legged thing in the \"colorless cloak\" on the high ground on Green, I think that is probably an echo of maimed Severian on his high island, now that the waters have receded, or at least some eidolon of Sev, effectively immortal. Unless it is just a Vanished Person ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T03:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<1360176476.3119.YahooMailClassic@web160703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\nJahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from your blood.\nTheir minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of your small son.\nKrait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\nThis strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, that\neats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten first, and\nhis mind \"bubbles up\" in the alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks\ninto their home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\nexample, apart from the implication that the minds of the human characters\nare contained in their blood / flesh, there is an eerie, \"unnatural\"\nconnection between one son (Krait via Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the\none case, and another son (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the\ndemeanor of the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\nThere is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of \"mind\"\n(powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty clear.\nIs there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this\n\"blood / flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one that\nWolfe is particularly fond of?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5113C9FD.7040200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-07T15:36:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring \nnotion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: identity, \nspeech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or memory-as-identity) vs \nmatter/flesh/reality, and morality of action regardless of moral \nstarting point. The alzabo is a beast even when it speaks, however, so \nthe inhumi are a more developed idea, in that they actually create \nthemselves---their conscious selves---with the act of drinking (drinking \nand eating being separate acts of the sacrament).\n\nWith Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as well, \nif you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body that holds \nKrait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of Sinew's blood rather \nthan whatever conjugation created his body. This suggests the Trinity of \ncourse---the ultimate \"ghost\" story, with all its implications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nAnother idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\nJahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from your \nblood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of \nyour small son. Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind \nit took from yours.\"\n\nThis strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, \nthat eats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten \nfirst, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the alzabo and speaks to the \nfamily when it breaks into their home. There are few shared dynamics \nin these scenes. For example, apart from the implication that the \nminds of the human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, \nthere is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait via \nJahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son (little \nSeverian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of the alzabo, \naddressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\nThere is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of \"mind\" \n(powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty \nclear. Is there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, \nor is this \"blood / flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two \nseries, one that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF />/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF >\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T15:42:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<5113C9FD.7040200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious selves---with\nthe act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the inhumi\nwould remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very similar in\nthis regard as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIn the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring notion.\"\nBut it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: identity,\nspeech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or memory-as-identity) vs\nmatter/flesh/reality, and morality of action regardless of moral starting\npoint. The alzabo is a beast even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi\nare a more developed idea, in that they actually create themselves---their\nconscious selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\nseparate acts of the sacrament).\n\nWith Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as well, if\nyou take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body that holds Krait)\nas having been born of Jahlee's drinking of Sinew's blood rather than\nwhatever conjugation created his body. This suggests the Trinity of\ncourse---the ultimate \"ghost\" story, with all its implications.\n\n\nOn 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\nJahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from your\nblood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of your\nsmall son. Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind it took\nfrom yours.\"\n\nThis strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, that\neats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten first, and\nhis mind \"bubbles up\" in the alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks\ninto their home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\nexample, apart from the implication that the minds of the human characters\nare contained in their blood / flesh, there is an eerie, \"unnatural\"\nconnection between one son (Krait via Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the\none case, and another son (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the\ndemeanor of the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\nThere is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of \"mind\"\n(powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty clear.\n Is there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this\n\"blood / flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one that\nWolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\nOn Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini **> wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF />/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF >\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5113CE45.1080207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-07T15:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important \ndifference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice \nof the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological \npuppet---far from a full possession or animation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious \nselves---with the act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the \ninhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very \nsimilar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\" story,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait via\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n >>\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n /\n\n >>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T15:57:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<5113CE45.1080207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way.\nPerhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDefinitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important\ndifference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice of\nthe alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological\npuppet---far from a full possession or animation.\n\n\nOn 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious selves---with\nthe act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the\ninhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very\nsimilar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\" story,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait via\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n **>>\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n /\n\n >>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5113DA18.4090801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:45:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly---at least that was always my impression. Severian doesn't \nappear to suspect the creature of having consciousness, and for me, the \nwonderful horror of that whole scene lies in the speech of the dead \nfamily members' coming from the jaws of a slavering carnivore---in \nhumans being hunted like any animal, tricked by a mere evolutionary \nadaptation.\n\nSome cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a \nwhile, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has \nmoved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla \nonly, I think, because he loved her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2013 10:57 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nAh, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a \nway. Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey?\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important\n difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the\n voice of the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a\n biological puppet---far from a full possession or animation.\n\n\n On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n \"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking\"\n\n The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the\n blood, the inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and\n inhumi seem very similar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\n On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward\n \"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a\n beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more\n developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their\n conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin\n birth as\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the\n mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his\n body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\"\n story,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a\n different topic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their\n minds from\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I\n drank the\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only\n one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The\n father, I\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh,\n there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son\n (Krait via\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and\n another son\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the\n demeanor of\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the\n transfer of\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two\n series, one\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n >\n >>>\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n / >\n\n \n\n >>>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >\n \n\n >>>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin\n Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:48:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product\nof genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to use\nthe analept to produce a truly enlightened despot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nAh, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way.\nPerhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey?\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important\ndifference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice\nof\nthe alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological\npuppet---far from a full possession or animation.\n\n\nOn 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\nselves---with\nthe act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the\ninhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very\nsimilar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\" story,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait via\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n **>>\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n /\n\n >>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<5113DA18.4090801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a\nwhile, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has moved\non to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla only, I\nthink, because he loved her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian was permanently affected by Thecla because he was the Conciliator\nand actually brought her back to life in his own brain." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<34e7e4f5c4aac9c82b8f61a5dd88b851.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:54:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<5113DA18.4090801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, February 7, 2013 10:45, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a\nwhile, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has\nmoved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla\nonly, I think, because he loved her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it doesn't hurt that Severian was born with a very tenacious faculty\nfor memory and somehow came by the power to manipulate time...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5113DCBB.1000300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:56:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, that too. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2013 11:51 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Some cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought\n for a while, and then the effect may largely wear off once the\n alzabo has moved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently\n affected by Thecla only, I think, because he loved her.\n\n\n\nSeverian was permanently affected by Thecla because he was the \nConciliator and actually brought her back to life in his own brain.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5113DCF7.7070903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-02-07T16:57:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why \"almost certainly\"? Don't tell me you doubt evolution!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2013 11:48 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product\nof genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to use\nthe analept to produce a truly enlightened despot.\n\nOn Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way.\nPerhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey?\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important\ndifference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice\nof\nthe alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological\npuppet---far from a full possession or animation.\n\n\nOn 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\nselves---with\nthe act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the\ninhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very\nsimilar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward \"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\" story,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds from\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait via\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series, one\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n **>>\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n /\n\n >>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-02-07T22:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "<5113DCF7.7070903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible the alzabo was made for some nefarious plot by a human\nculture previous to the advent of Inire, but the creation of anpiels and\nmastiffmen, etc, are attributed to Inire, and Inire's purposes are served\nby the alzabo. And it's not like the human culture would be beyond the\ninfluence of the Yesodis, even then.\n\nAnd while the alzabo has no \"mind\" of its own, it was present at\nSeverian's trial. Which is interesting, since it had two victims active\nwhen he knew it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, February 7, 2013 10:57, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhy \"almost certainly\"? Don't tell me you doubt evolution!\n\nOn 2/7/2013 11:48 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product\nof genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to\nuse\nthe analept to produce a truly enlightened despot.\n\nOn Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way.\nPerhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey?\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important\ndifference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the\nvoice\nof\nthe alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological\npuppet---far from a full possession or animation.\n\n\nOn 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\nselves---with\nthe act of drinking\"\n\nThe other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the\ninhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very\nsimilar in this regard as well.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward\n\"recurring\n notion.\" But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions:\n identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or\n memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of\n action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast\n even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed\n idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious\n selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being\n separate acts of the sacrament).\n\n With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth\nas\n well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body\n that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of\n Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body.\n This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate \"ghost\"\nstory,\n with all its implications.\n\n\n On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different\ntopic:\n\n Jahlee says, right before her death, \"We take their minds\nfrom\n your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank\nthe\n blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who\n lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\n This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian\n encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father,\nI\n believe, is eaten first, and his mind \"bubbles up\" in the\n alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their\n home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For\n example, apart from the implication that the minds of the\n human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there\n is an eerie, \"unnatural\" connection between one son (Krait\nvia\n Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another\nson\n (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor\nof\n the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts?\n\n There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer\nof\n \"mind\" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental\n mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful\n connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this \"blood /\n flesh as mind\" just a recurring notion in the two series,\none\n that Wolfe is particularly fond of?\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini\n \n **>>\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF\n /\n\n >>/* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n >>\n\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2013-02-07T22:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAnd while the alzabo has no \"mind\" of its own, it was present at\nSeverian's trial. Which is interesting, since it had two victims active\nwhen he knew it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps not relevant, but I thought the alzabo a nod to Damon \nKnight's _Four in One_. There the victims have some say in what the \nmonster does next.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] } ] }