# Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower *The Urth list — 36 messages, 10 voices, 06 Feb 2013* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 13:52* Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while writing * TBONS*, that would be most impressive. --- ### Daniel Petersen *06 Feb 2013, 13:56 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly connect that up. -DOJP > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: > Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the clients > at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe > had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while > writing *TBONS*, that would be most impressive. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 14:01 · in reply to Daniel Petersen* It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in the story (I am just nearing the end of *Return to the Whorl *for the first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to *TBONS *are taking away from my enjoyment of *Short Sun *a bit. > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen < > danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote: > I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly > connect that up. -DOJP > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the clients >> at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe >> had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while >> writing *TBONS*, that would be most impressive. >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Gerry Quinn *06 Feb 2013, 14:07 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* From: Antonin Scriabin > Is there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the > vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while writing TBONS, > that would be most impressive. Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was always with a group. I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 14:15 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips. Also, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the *Whorl*. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and time when visiting Urth? > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: > > > *From:* Antonin Scriabin > > > Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the > clients at the > > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had > the > > vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while writing > *TBONS*, > > that would be most impressive. > Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in the > lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever encountering > several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was always with a group. > > I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had to > make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the Whorl. > Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as he said it would > have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. > > - Gerry Quinn > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *06 Feb 2013, 14:27 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that would certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another, because they have no motivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much. > On 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to > be a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian > started writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips. > > Also, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the > /Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space > and time when visiting Urth? > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote: > > *From:* Antonin Scriabin > > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the > clients at the > > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If > Wolfe had the > > vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while > writing /TBONS/, > > that would be most impressive. > Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in > the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever > encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was > always with a group. > > I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had > to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the > Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as > he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. > > - Gerry Quinn > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### entonio at gmail.com *06 Feb 2013, 14:29 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics of the latter books when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very strange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition by the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a constraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be out of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me). But I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They appear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a connection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought. One may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely seems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter books. Ant?nio No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin escreveu: > It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in the story (I am just nearing the end of Return to the Whorl for the first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to TBONS are taking away from my enjoyment of Short Sun a bit. > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly connect that up. -DOJP > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > Is there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while writing TBONS, that would be most impressive. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 14:30 · in reply to David Stockhoff* I also thought (I can't remember quite why) that Typhon sent out more than one, possibly many, Whorls. I might be totally wrong about this, but if it was something of a major campaign of colonization, with many ships, he might be less likely to mention one specifically. Also, if the events of the *Short Sun *and *Long Sun *are occurring at the same time, with no time travel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative to his awakening, which is another reason he might not mention it to Severian. > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > I'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that > would certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention > important things when speaking to one another, because they have no > motivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much. > > > On 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be >> a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started >> writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips. >> >> Also, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the >> /Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and >> time when visiting Urth? >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > gerry at bindweed.com>> wrote: >> >> *From:* Antonin Scriabin >> > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the >> >> clients at the >> > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If >> Wolfe had the >> > vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while >> writing /TBONS/, >> >> > that would be most impressive. >> Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in >> the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever >> encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was >> always with a group. >> >> I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had >> to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the >> Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as >> he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. >> >> - Gerry Quinn >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### entonio at gmail.com *06 Feb 2013, 14:32 · in reply to David Stockhoff* No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff escreveu: > Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another, In which they behave like real people instead of book characters! --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 14:38 · in reply to entonio at gmail.com* Perhaps "tacked on" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find *Short Sun *to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. Starting off *Long Sun *for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up to get there, so when the "Typhon is Pas" moment *did *come, it completely blew me away. By the time the *Short Sun *rolls around, however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of *Long Sun. *The mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them than we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of *Short Sun *is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting more *Long *and *New*? > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, wrote: > I don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics of the latter > books when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very > strange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition > by the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a > constraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be > out of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me). > But I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They > appear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a > connection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought. > One may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely > seems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter > books. > > Ant?nio > > > No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin > escreveu: > > It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in > the story (I am just nearing the end of *Return to the Whorl *for the > first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I > would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, > rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to *TBONS *are > taking away from my enjoyment of *Short Sun *a bit. > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen < > danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote: >> I seriously doubt he did. But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly >> connect that up. -DOJP >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin < >> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Is there indication in *The Book of the New Sun *that any of the >>> clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If >>> Wolfe had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back >>> while writing *TBONS*, that would be most impressive. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### entonio at gmail.com *06 Feb 2013, 14:39 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:30, Antonin Scriabin escreveu: > Also, if the events of the Short Sun and Long Sun are occurring at the same time, with no time travel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative to his awakening, The conclusion is correct, but the premises aren't those. --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Feb 2013, 14:58 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Exactly---both those reasons. And also, because of the sheer scale of the project, it's not like Typhon, upon waking, is going to ask after the Whorls. How would he even phrase such a question to make sense to a stranger? "What of my Whorls? Has there been any word from the Fomalhaut expedition?" That has a wonderful pulpy feel, but wouldn't have been right, and would prove a much, much tighter connection than we understand to be possible. Plus, Typhon may well have been able to mentally "detect" that Severian didn't know anything on the topic. > ________________________________ > From: Antonin Scriabin > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > > I also thought (I can't remember quite why) that Typhon sent out more than one, possibly many, Whorls. I might be totally wrong about this, but if it was something of a major campaign of colonization, with many ships, he might be less likely to mention one specifically. Also, if the events of the Short Sun and Long Sun are occurring at the same time, with no time travel shenanigans, then Typhon launched the Whorl a long time ago relative to his awakening, which is another reason he might not mention it to Severian. > > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > > I'm not sure why a reference to the Whorl would be needed. Although that would certainly nail it down, Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another, because they have no motivation to do so. So the absence of a remark doesn't tell us much. >> On 2/6/2013 9:15 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> >> The scene where Severian brings Silk/Horn writing implements seems to be a one-on-one conversation. Silk/Horn presumably gets Severian started writing his own memoir after giving him some writing tips. Also, I don't necessarily think that Typhon would have mentioned the /Whorl/. Is it too much to ask for Silk/Horn traveling both in space and time when visiting Urth? >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? *From:* Antonin Scriabin >>> ? ? > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the >>> >>> ? ? clients at the >>> ? ? > time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn? If >>> ? ? Wolfe had the >>> ? ? > vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while ? ? writing /TBONS/, >>> ? ? > that would be most impressive. >>> ? ? Gurloes used to “talk to” (or taunt, who knows) the mad clients in >>> ? ? the lowest floor. But I don’t recall any mention of Severian ever >>> ? ? encountering several clients held together, and Silk/Horn was >>> ? ? always with a group. >>> >>> ? ? I don’t believe any such thesis is feasible. Typhon would have had >>> ? ? to make a reference — albeit perhaps oblique - to launching the >>> ? ? Whorl. Anything else would be, in Wolfe’s terms, “lame” — just as >>> ? ? he said it would have been lame not to have Silk/Horn visit Severian. >>> >>> ? ? - Gerry Quinn >>> >>> >>> ? ? _______________________________________________ --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Feb 2013, 15:01 · in reply to entonio at gmail.com* Precisely. Although this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were always missing obvious opportunities to tell each other "Oh, so-and-so's missing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc." It got to be laughable. > ________________________________ > From: "entonio at gmail.com" > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff escreveu: >> Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to one another, > In which they behave like real people instead of book characters! > > _______________________________________________ --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Feb 2013, 15:08 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* With Wolfe, I find that "stapled" things are often otherwise the most deeply buried, fundamental truths. Consider UOTNS, even granting that it must contain some creative ornamentation (such as the nature of Apheta and her world). Yes, if you miss the signs---as I did at first---Typhon's appearance in LS seems arbitrary. But you have described the work Wolfe did (and requires of us) to put him in. SS definitely feels less "literary." I'd like to ascribe this to the personalities of the "writers," but perhaps also to Wolfe's decreasing need to keep explaining things and find ways to explain the same things. Much of the understory involves "ghosts" of a type that are not prominent in NS but do feature in LS. We're supposed to largely "get it" by that point. And that's perhaps why I find SS to be the most baffling of them all. > ________________________________ > From: Antonin Scriabin > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:38 AM > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > > Perhaps "tacked on" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find Short Sun to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. Starting off Long Sun for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up to get there, so when the "Typhon is Pas" moment did come, it completely blew me away. By the time the Short Sun rolls around, however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of Long Sun. The mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them than we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of Short Sun is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting more Long and New? > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, wrote: > > I don't think that Wolfe had thought out the specifics “of the latter books when he was writing NS. even if he had, it would have been very strange, or even disappointing, if they hadn't changed beyond recognition by the time he wrote LS, to the point that they would be more of a constraint than a foundation (of course one or two specifics wouldn't be out of the question, but more than that seems difficult to me). >> But I must disagree that the Red Whorl chapters are stapled on SS. They appear near the end, at a point LS/SS had no commercial need at all of a connection to NS. It is there for a purpose, not as an afterthought.” >> One may look at it the reverse way: rewrite NS without Typhon. It barely seems to change. Then view Typhon as a stapled in reference to the latter books. >> >> Ant?nio >> >> >> >> No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:01, Antonin Scriabin escreveu: >> >> >> It also isn't quite clear to me what Silk/Horn looks like at this point in the story (I am just nearing the end of Return to the Whorl for the first time), so that might be hampering my ability to figure this out. I would really love for it to have been somewhat planned from the beginning, rather than just tacked on ... these really overt references to TBONS are taking away from my enjoyment of Short Sun a bit. >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote: >>> >>> I seriously doubt he did. “But I'm open to seeing someone convincingly connect that up. ?-DOJP >>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there indication in The Book of the New Sun that any of the clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be Silk/Horn?” If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in this depth back while writing TBONS, that would be most impressive. >>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 15:09 · in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF* The Wheel of Time suffers from this sickness as well. So much trouble, heartache, and death could have been averted if characters were just a teeny tiny bit more forthcoming with important information with one another. >.< > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > Precisely. > > Although this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were > always missing obvious opportunities to tell each other "Oh, so-and-so's > missing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc." It got to be laughable. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "entonio at gmail.com" > > *To:* The Urth Mailing List > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM > > *Subject:* Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff > escreveu: >> Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to >> one another, > In which they behave like real people instead of book characters! > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 15:12 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Is there a reference in *New Sun *to clients who admit themselves to the Tower, or are otherwise there of their own free will? Silk/Horn is explicitly one of these ... > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: > The Wheel of Time suffers from this sickness as well. So much trouble, > heartache, and death could have been averted if characters were just a > teeny tiny bit more forthcoming with important information with one > another. >.< > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: >> Precisely. >> >> Although this isn't always a sign of realism. In Lost, characters were >> always missing obvious opportunities to tell each other "Oh, so-and-so's >> missing/pregnant/dead/armed and dangerous/etc." It got to be laughable. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* "entonio at gmail.com" >> >> *To:* The Urth Mailing List >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:32 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower >> >> No dia 06/02/2013, ?s 14:27, David Stockhoff >> escreveu: >>> Wolfe characters often don't mention important things when speaking to >>> one another, >> In which they behave like real people instead of book characters! >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *06 Feb 2013, 15:29 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't. Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc. Lots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans. --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Antonin Scriabin *06 Feb 2013, 15:34 · in reply to Marc Aramini* The number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. > On Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, "Marc Aramini" wrote: > I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't. > > Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into > inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff > legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and > Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream > travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the > story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille > ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc. > > Lots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans. > > --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin * wrote: > > > From: Antonin Scriabin > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 6:38 AM > > Perhaps "tacked on" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find *Short > Sun *to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the > insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. > Starting off *Long Sun *for example, mysteries abound. What is the > Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How > big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and > build-up to get there, so when the "Typhon is Pas" moment *did *come, it > completely blew me away. By the time the *Short Sun *rolls around, > however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection > between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of *Long Sun. *The > mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me > beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in > comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a > bit less time on them than we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus > of *Short Sun *is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault > for expecting more *Long *and *New*? > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *06 Feb 2013, 17:54 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Okay. I found Long Sun slower and less engrossing than Short Sun, and had way more fun parsing it, but the lack of consensus on even what happened in the books leads me to believe Short Sun is not universally appealing. spoilers on the interpretation of events as I sincerely and honestly believe them to be in the cycle: (the loose ends really are tied up - cannibal hybridizing trees turn Urth to hell; lianas steal their lifestuff and take over green, becoming the inefficient child race, the inhumi; our narrator of OBW reboots Silk and goes to reside in his hus while sitting under such a tree, Auk and Chenillle repair the lander and go to blue and are "just missed" by our narrator, who uses that lander later and gets Horn's ring back; the blind man in the sewers who dies is really the original blind son of Typhon who possessed Auk for so long (as Mamelta was Kypris and Silk's genetic mom?- the monarch's family stored in that room to recolonize Urth) the inhumi are doomed to revert back to liana without a fresh infusion of human stock, our later Silk in denial narrator uses his liana staff to cross space and time instead of another inhumi, Fava and Mora summon Hy in their dreams, and the real puzzle is ... does Severian spend a lot of time looking at faces in Typhon's mausoleum in his youth and seeing himself there, or not?) --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 7:34 AM The number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. On Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, "Marc Aramini" wrote: I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't. Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc. Lots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans. --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: From: Antonin Scriabin Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 6:38 AM Perhaps "tacked on" was a bit too harsh. Let's just say that I find Short Sun to be quite a bit less mysterious than its predecessors, and the insertion of Nessus, the Matachin Tower, etc., adds to that impression. Starting off Long Sun for example, mysteries abound. What is the Whorl? What time is it? Who/what are the gods? Cards? The Writings? How big is the Whorl? Etc., etc., etc. It took a lot of time, allusion, and build-up to get there, so when the "Typhon is Pas" moment did come, it completely blew me away. By the time the Short Sun rolls around, however, we know all these things, and additionally we know the connection between the Red Sun Whorl and the rest of the elements of Long Sun. The mysteries of Blue and Green are never presented in a way that made me beyond eager to find our their solutions ... they seem less fun in comparison to the other works, partially because we seem to spend quite a bit less time on them than we did on board the Whorl. I suppose the focus of Short Sun is intentionally much different, so perhaps it is my fault for expecting more Long and New? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Feb 2013, 18:05 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I think you have a point. Blue and Green are more open in a sense, since they are after all merely earthlike planets. The narrator need not "leak" the concepts of shadelow and nightside, and so on. As a result the narration is perhaps less interesting in a way: none of the narrators are in quite the box Severian and Silk's biographers are in. I don't see this as a loss, however. The mysteries are there nevertheless. It may be that our fixation with understanding the Mother and the Neighbors are a little too conditioned by the previous books, and the reader should "reset" to a narrated world like our own ancient one in which there may well be gods, demigods, and monsters---who knows? It's not like the planets were scanned by exogeographers of the Federation of Planets. Horn lives on a tiny island near a tiny town, and that's 100% of the Blue he knows before his travels. So Blue is both tiny/closed/intimate and vast/open/unknown. Hard to capture that. Think more of Latro and the Greeks the way Wolfe would write them---also likely to come from a tiny town on a tiny island, only to wander the Mediterranean or Asia, with gods just out of sight and monsters in the forest. > ________________________________ > From: Antonin Scriabin > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > > The number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. > On Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, "Marc Aramini" wrote: > > I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't. >> Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc. >> >> Lots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans. >> >> --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>> From: Antonin Scriabin >>> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Feb 2013, 18:12 · in reply to Marc Aramini* You're always a few steps ahead, Mark. :) Is there a consensus that it's Typhon's mausoleum? Does this suggest Severian "looks like" Typhon? Or someone else? Also, do you think the stiff-legged "bird-like" person you mentioned is actually tree-related, and that's why he's stiff-legged — (not really birdlike at all, in other words) > ________________________________ > From: Marc Aramini > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower > > > Okay. I found Long Sun slower and less engrossing than Short Sun, and had way more fun parsing it, but the lack of consensus on even what happened in the books leads me to believe Short Sun is not universally appealing. > > spoilers on the interpretation of events as I sincerely and honestly believe them to be in the cycle: > (the loose ends really are tied up - cannibal hybridizing trees turn Urth to hell; lianas steal their lifestuff and take over green, becoming the inefficient child race, the inhumi; our narrator of OBW reboots Silk and goes to reside in his hus while sitting under such a tree, Auk and Chenillle repair the lander and go to blue and are "just missed" by our narrator, who uses that lander later and gets Horn's ring back; the blind man in the sewers who dies is really the original blind son of Typhon who possessed Auk for so long (as Mamelta was Kypris and Silk's genetic mom?- the monarch's family stored in that room to recolonize Urth) the inhumi are doomed to revert back to liana without a fresh infusion of human stock, our later Silk in denial narrator uses his liana staff to cross space and time instead of another inhumi, Fava and Mora summon Hy in their dreams, and the real puzzle is ... does Severian spend a lot of time looking at faces in Typhon's mausoleum in his youth and seeing himself there, or not?) > --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> From: Antonin Scriabin >> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" >> Date: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 7:34 AM >> >> >> The number of mysteries doesn't make it more mysterious. Also, the more dreamlike cadence and flow of Short Sun lessens the impact. The very slow, realist approach in Long Sun makes the pervasive mysteries more forceful, to me. It's as if in Short Sun all bets are off, so nothing is as impressive, on the mystery front. In Long Sun, I felt like I was in a real world for 1200 pages, and it's mysteries were my mysteries. >> On Feb 6, 2013 10:29 AM, "Marc Aramini" wrote: >> >> I always say, stop, Marc, you know how this ends ... but anyway, I can't. >>> Way more mysteries in Short Sun. The transmogrification of liana into inhumi, the presence of the vanished Gods, the identity of that stiff legged bird like fellow at the top of the cliff, the presence of Silk and Oreb in the stories of the past, the grabbing of Hyacinth's spirit in dream travel, the actualy identity of the narrator at any given point in the story, the fate of Urth (real horrorshow like); Auk's ghost, a Chenille ringer, and the ring that changes color and shape in Dorp, etc. >>> >>> Lots of stuff. And of course there's time travel shennanigans. >>> >>> --- On Wed, 2/6/13, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>> From: Antonin Scriabin >>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Sergei SOLOVIEV *06 Feb 2013, 18:30 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* I did think about it, but I had an impression that no. The only "seed" that hints at possible visits of Silk/Horn (and my belief was that it could be indeed a "seed" that later grew in mind of Gene himself and possible gave him an idea to develop the connection in SS) is the remark that Master Gurloes was a deep man trying to play simple, who wandered alone in the night, could stop suddenly, speak with the invisible etc. Sergei Soloviev > Antonin Scriabin wrote: > Is there indication in /The Book of the New Sun /that any of the > clients at the time of Severian's childhood might in fact be > Silk/Horn? If Wolfe had the vision and plan for the "Solar Cycle" in > this depth back while writing /TBONS/, that would be most impressive. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *06 Feb 2013, 18:47 · in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF* --- On Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: From: DAVID STOCKHOFF Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, February 6, 2013, 10:12 AM You're always a few steps ahead, Mark. :) Is there a consensus that it's Typhon's mausoleum? Does this suggest Severian "looks like" Typhon? Or someone else? Also, do you think the stiff-legged "bird-like" person you mentioned is actually tree-related, and that's why he's stiff-legged — (not really birdlike at all, in other words) No consensus on the mausoleum and if it is the infamous one of which Severian claims, "I have seen my tomb and now go to lie in it" or something to that effect, but that would certainly establish a very strange genetic relationship between Typhon and Severian that I had previously only been able to firmly ascribe only to Silk, as?Typhon's probable "heir". ? As far as the stiff-legged thing in the "colorless cloak" on the high ground on Green, I think that is probably an echo of maimed Severian on his high island, now that the waters have receded, or at least some eidolon of Sev, effectively immortal. Unless it is just a Vanished Person ... --- ### Antonin Scriabin *07 Feb 2013, 03:43 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind it took from yours." This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For example, apart from the implication that the minds of the human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one that Wolfe is particularly fond of? > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > > > --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF * wrote: > > > From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Feb 2013, 15:36 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being separate acts of the sacrament). With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" story, with all its implications. > On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: > > Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from your > blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of > your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind > it took from yours." > > This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, > that eats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten > first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the alzabo and speaks to the > family when it breaks into their home. There are few shared dynamics > in these scenes. For example, apart from the implication that the > minds of the human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, > there is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via > Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son (little > Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of the alzabo, > addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? > > There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of "mind" > (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty > clear. Is there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, > or is this "blood / flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two > series, one that Wolfe is particularly fond of? > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote: > > > > --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF / >/* wrote: > > > From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > > > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Antonin Scriabin *07 Feb 2013, 15:42 · in reply to David Stockhoff* "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious selves---with the act of drinking" The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very similar in this regard as well. > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring notion." > But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: identity, > speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or memory-as-identity) vs > matter/flesh/reality, and morality of action regardless of moral starting > point. The alzabo is a beast even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi > are a more developed idea, in that they actually create themselves---their > conscious selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being > separate acts of the sacrament). > > With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as well, if > you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body that holds Krait) > as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of Sinew's blood rather than > whatever conjugation created his body. This suggests the Trinity of > course---the ultimate "ghost" story, with all its implications. > > > On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: >> >> Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from your >> blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of your >> small son. Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind it took >> from yours." >> >> This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian encounters, that >> eats the family he stays with. The father, I believe, is eaten first, and >> his mind "bubbles up" in the alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks >> into their home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For >> example, apart from the implication that the minds of the human characters >> are contained in their blood / flesh, there is an eerie, "unnatural" >> connection between one son (Krait via Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the >> one case, and another son (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the >> demeanor of the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? >> >> There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of "mind" >> (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental mechanics are pretty clear. >> Is there any meaningful connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this >> "blood / flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one that >> Wolfe is particularly fond of? >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini > marcaramini at yahoo.com>**> wrote: >> >> >> >> --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF /> >> >/* wrote: >> >> >> From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > > >> >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Feb 2013, 15:54 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice of the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological puppet---far from a full possession or animation. > On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious > selves---with the act of drinking" > > The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the > inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very > similar in this regard as well. > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff > > wrote: > > In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring > notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: > identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or > memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of > action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast > even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed > idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious > selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being > separate acts of the sacrament). > > With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as > well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body > that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of > Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. > This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" story, > with all its implications. > > > On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > > Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: > > Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from > your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the > blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who > lived with the mind it took from yours." > > This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian > encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I > believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the > alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their > home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For > example, apart from the implication that the minds of the > human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there > is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via > Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son > (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of > the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? > > There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of > "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental > mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful > connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / > flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one > that Wolfe is particularly fond of? > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini > > >> > wrote: > > > > --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF > / > > >>/* wrote: > > > From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > >> > > > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Antonin Scriabin *07 Feb 2013, 15:57 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way. Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey? > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important > difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice of > the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological > puppet---far from a full possession or animation. > > > On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious selves---with >> the act of drinking" >> >> The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the >> inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very >> similar in this regard as well. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff > dstockhoff at verizon.net**>> wrote: >> >> In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring >> notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: >> identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or >> memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of >> action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast >> even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed >> idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >> selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being >> separate acts of the sacrament). >> >> With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as >> well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body >> that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of >> Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. >> This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" story, >> with all its implications. >> >> >> On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> >> Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: >> >> Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from >> your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the >> blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who >> lived with the mind it took from yours." >> >> This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian >> encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I >> believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the >> alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their >> home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For >> example, apart from the implication that the minds of the >> human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there >> is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via >> Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son >> (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of >> the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? >> >> There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of >> "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental >> mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful >> connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / >> flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one >> that Wolfe is particularly fond of? >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini >> >> **>> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF >> / >> >> > >> >>/* wrote: >> >> >> From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > >> > >> >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Feb 2013, 16:45 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* Exactly---at least that was always my impression. Severian doesn't appear to suspect the creature of having consciousness, and for me, the wonderful horror of that whole scene lies in the speech of the dead family members' coming from the jaws of a slavering carnivore---in humans being hunted like any animal, tricked by a mere evolutionary adaptation. Some cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a while, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has moved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla only, I think, because he loved her. > On 2/7/2013 10:57 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a > way. Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey? > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff > > wrote: > > Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important > difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the > voice of the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a > biological puppet---far from a full possession or animation. > > > On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > > "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious > selves---with the act of drinking" > > The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the > blood, the inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and > inhumi seem very similar in this regard as well. > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff > > >> wrote: > > In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward > "recurring > notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: > identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or > memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of > action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a > beast > even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more > developed > idea, in that they actually create themselves---their > conscious > selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being > separate acts of the sacrament). > > With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin > birth as > well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the > mutable body > that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of > Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his > body. > This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" > story, > with all its implications. > > > On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > > Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a > different topic: > > Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their > minds from > your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I > drank the > blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only > one who > lived with the mind it took from yours." > > This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian > encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The > father, I > believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the > alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their > home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For > example, apart from the implication that the minds of the > human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, > there > is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son > (Krait via > Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and > another son > (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the > demeanor of > the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? > > There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the > transfer of > "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental > mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful > connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / > flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two > series, one > that Wolfe is particularly fond of? > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini > > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > > --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF > / > > > > > >>>/* wrote: > > > From: DAVID STOCKHOFF > > > > > >>> > > > Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin > Tower --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Feb 2013, 16:48 · in reply to Antonin Scriabin* The assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product of genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to use the analept to produce a truly enlightened despot. > On Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way. > Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey? > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff > wrote: >> Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important >> difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice >> of >> the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological >> puppet---far from a full possession or animation. >> >> >> On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>> "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>> selves---with >>> the act of drinking" >>> >>> The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the >>> inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very >>> similar in this regard as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff >>> >> dstockhoff at verizon.net**>> wrote: >>> >>> In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring >>> notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: >>> identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or >>> memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of >>> action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast >>> even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed >>> idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>> selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being >>> separate acts of the sacrament). >>> >>> With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as >>> well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body >>> that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of >>> Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. >>> This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" story, >>> with all its implications. >>> >>> >>> On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>> >>> Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: >>> >>> Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from >>> your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the >>> blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who >>> lived with the mind it took from yours." >>> >>> This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian >>> encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I >>> believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the >>> alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their >>> home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For >>> example, apart from the implication that the minds of the >>> human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there >>> is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via >>> Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son >>> (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of >>> the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? >>> >>> There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of >>> "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental >>> mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful >>> connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / >>> flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one >>> that Wolfe is particularly fond of? >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini >>> >>> >> **>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF >>> / >>> >>> >> >>> >>/* wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: DAVID STOCKHOFF >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *07 Feb 2013, 16:51 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Some cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a > while, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has moved > on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla only, I > think, because he loved her. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla because he was the Conciliator and actually brought her back to life in his own brain. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Feb 2013, 16:54 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > On Thu, February 7, 2013 10:45, David Stockhoff wrote: > Some cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought for a > while, and then the effect may largely wear off once the alzabo has > moved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently affected by Thecla > only, I think, because he loved her. Well, it doesn't hurt that Severian was born with a very tenacious faculty for memory and somehow came by the power to manipulate time.... ``` Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com > A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab < http://www.tamut.edu/cil > ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Feb 2013, 16:56 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Ah, that too. ;) > On 2/7/2013 11:51 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff > > wrote: > > Some cells of the alzabo's brain think as the dead person thought > for a while, and then the effect may largely wear off once the > alzabo has moved on to hunt other prey. Severian was permanently > affected by Thecla only, I think, because he loved her. > > > > Severian was permanently affected by Thecla because he was the > Conciliator and actually brought her back to life in his own brain. > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Feb 2013, 16:57 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Why "almost certainly"? Don't tell me you doubt evolution! > On 2/7/2013 11:48 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > The assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product > of genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to use > the analept to produce a truly enlightened despot. > > On Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >> Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way. >> Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey? >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff >> wrote: >>> Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important >>> difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the voice >>> of >>> the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological >>> puppet---far from a full possession or animation. >>> >>> >>> On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>> "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>>> selves---with >>>> the act of drinking" >>>> >>>> The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the >>>> inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very >>>> similar in this regard as well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff >>>> >>> dstockhoff at verizon.net**>> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward "recurring >>>> notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: >>>> identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or >>>> memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of >>>> action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast >>>> even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed >>>> idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>>> selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being >>>> separate acts of the sacrament). >>>> >>>> With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth as >>>> well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body >>>> that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of >>>> Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. >>>> This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" story, >>>> with all its implications. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>> >>>> Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different topic: >>>> >>>> Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds from >>>> your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the >>>> blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who >>>> lived with the mind it took from yours." >>>> >>>> This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian >>>> encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, I >>>> believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the >>>> alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their >>>> home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For >>>> example, apart from the implication that the minds of the >>>> human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there >>>> is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait via >>>> Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another son >>>> (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor of >>>> the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? >>>> >>>> There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer of >>>> "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental >>>> mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful >>>> connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / >>>> flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, one >>>> that Wolfe is particularly fond of? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini >>>> >>>> >>> **>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF >>>> / >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>/* wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: DAVID STOCKHOFF >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Feb 2013, 22:07 · in reply to David Stockhoff* It's possible the alzabo was made for some nefarious plot by a human culture previous to the advent of Inire, but the creation of anpiels and mastiffmen, etc, are attributed to Inire, and Inire's purposes are served by the alzabo. And it's not like the human culture would be beyond the influence of the Yesodis, even then. And while the alzabo has no "mind" of its own, it was present at Severian's trial. Which is interesting, since it had two victims active when he knew it. > On Thu, February 7, 2013 10:57, David Stockhoff wrote: > Why "almost certainly"? Don't tell me you doubt evolution! > > On 2/7/2013 11:48 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> The assimilation of devoured prey memories is almost certainly a product >> of genetic engineering by the Yesodis, if not Father Inire himself, to >> use >> the analept to produce a truly enlightened despot. >> >> On Thu, February 7, 2013 09:57, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>> Ah, ok. The speech isn't true speech, just animal imitation, in a way. >>> Perhaps a highly evolved form of mimicry design to lure prey? >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:54 AM, David Stockhoff >>> wrote: >>>> Definitely. But the alzabo remains a beast, which is the important >>>> difference, I think. The voice within it speaks, but it is not the >>>> voice >>>> of >>>> the alzabo, which has no awareness. It's less than a biological >>>> puppet---far from a full possession or animation. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/7/2013 10:42 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>>> "in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>>>> selves---with >>>>> the act of drinking" >>>>> >>>>> The other thing is that Jahlee says without drinking the blood, the >>>>> inhumi would remain beasts as well. The alzabo and inhumi seem very >>>>> similar in this regard as well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:36 AM, David Stockhoff >>>>> >>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net**>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In the absence of any concrete answer, I'd lean toward >>>>> "recurring >>>>> notion." But it's one that's grounded in Wolfe's obsessions: >>>>> identity, speech-as-identity, spirit/soul/thought (or >>>>> memory-as-identity) vs matter/flesh/reality, and morality of >>>>> action regardless of moral starting point. The alzabo is a beast >>>>> even when it speaks, however, so the inhumi are a more developed >>>>> idea, in that they actually create themselves---their conscious >>>>> selves---with the act of drinking (drinking and eating being >>>>> separate acts of the sacrament). >>>>> >>>>> With Jahlee, there may be a rough parallel to the virgin birth >>>>> as >>>>> well, if you take Krait (the mind of Krait, not the mutable body >>>>> that holds Krait) as having been born of Jahlee's drinking of >>>>> Sinew's blood rather than whatever conjugation created his body. >>>>> This suggests the Trinity of course---the ultimate "ghost" >>>>> story, >>>>> with all its implications. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2/6/2013 10:43 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Another idea popped into my head, albeit on a different >>>>> topic: >>>>> >>>>> Jahlee says, right before her death, "We take their minds >>>>> from >>>>> your blood. Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank >>>>> the >>>>> blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the only one who >>>>> lived with the mind it took from yours." >>>>> >>>>> This strikes me as very similar to the alzabo Severian >>>>> encounters, that eats the family he stays with. The father, >>>>> I >>>>> believe, is eaten first, and his mind "bubbles up" in the >>>>> alzabo and speaks to the family when it breaks into their >>>>> home. There are few shared dynamics in these scenes. For >>>>> example, apart from the implication that the minds of the >>>>> human characters are contained in their blood / flesh, there >>>>> is an eerie, "unnatural" connection between one son (Krait >>>>> via >>>>> Jahlee) and his father (Horn) in the one case, and another >>>>> son >>>>> (little Severian) and his father (surfaced in the demeanor >>>>> of >>>>> the alzabo, addressing him) in the other. Thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> There is also the eating of Thecla's flesh and the transfer >>>>> of >>>>> "mind" (powered by alzabo glands) ... the sacramental >>>>> mechanics are pretty clear. Is there any meaningful >>>>> connection between alzabo and inhumu, or is this "blood / >>>>> flesh as mind" just a recurring notion in the two series, >>>>> one >>>>> that Wolfe is particularly fond of? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Marc Aramini >>>>> >>>>> >>>> **>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On *Wed, 2/6/13, DAVID STOCKHOFF >>>>> / >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>/* wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: DAVID STOCKHOFF >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Silk/Horn in the Matachin Tower --- ### David Duffy *07 Feb 2013, 22:29 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Jeff Wilson wrote: > And while the alzabo has no "mind" of its own, it was present at > Severian's trial. Which is interesting, since it had two victims active > when he knew it. Perhaps not relevant, but I thought the alzabo a nod to Damon Knight's _Four in One_. There the victims have some say in what the monster does next. Cheers, David Duffy. ---