{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6371", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6371, "subject": "Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as influence on\n\t_New Sun_?", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2013-04-16T03:29:54+00:00", "last": "2013-04-18T17:46:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Darth Ed", "address": "darthed77 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-04-16T03:29:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as influence on\n\t_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My Wolfe reading group has been re-reading _The Book of the New Sun_ lately. For about half the group, this is our third or fourth time reading it. For the remainder, it is our second time.\n\nOne of our members remarked that he had recently read Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ [*] and he was struck by how many words from _New Sun_'s antiquated vocabulary were used in _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_(Flaubert)\n\nHe listed a half dozen examples, which I can't recall at the moment, but it was a very convincing list. We all thought it was very possible that this novel may have had a profound influence on Wolfe in his writing of _The Book of the New Sun_. The subject matter is certainly something that Wolfe might have been interested in following his conversion to Catholicism. I thought surely someone must have made this connection previously, but my searches of the urth.net mailing list, WolfeWiki.com, and the web at large revealed no discussion that I could locate of any connection between Wolfe and Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_, except for *one* academic book on Google Books:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=tE4FPNc8pr4C&lpg=PA106&ots=0GAiFFsx8a&dq=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&pg=PA106#v=onepage&q=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&f=false\n\nThe author of the essay rather matter-of-factly states, right after quoting a passage from Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_:\n\n\"Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ obviously derived in equal part from the _Temptation_ and Borges's _Book of Imaginary Beings_ (which itself contains many excerpts from the former source).\"\n\nSadly, the next page in that book is not visible on Google Books. A member of our group purchased the book from Google Books to check, and the Wolfe discussion pretty much ends with that sentence. Fortunately, Google Books has a convenient return policy. :-)\n\nHas anyone here read Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ and would care to comment?\n\nHas Wolfe made any comments concerning Flaubert or _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ in any interviews?\n\nObviously, Borges' work has long been recognized as an influence on Wolfe and _New Sun_. Is this possible Flaubert connection relatively untrodden territory? Or is this something generally known and my Google searches just didn't turn up much discussion of it?\n\nThanks,\nEd" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2013-04-16T08:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n influence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Darth Ed wrote:\nMy Wolfe reading group has been re-reading _The Book of the New Sun_ \nlately. For about half the group, this is our third or fourth time \nreading it. For the remainder, it is our second time.\n\nOne of our members remarked that he had recently read Gustave Flaubert's \n_The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ [*] and he was struck by how many \nwords from _New Sun_'s antiquated vocabulary were used in _The \nTemptation of Saint Anthony_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well that will depend on the translation, of course. Looking through the \ngutenberg.org one (Dunne 1904). Yes, we see \"Erebus\", \"cynocephali\", etc. \nBut most of the story is taken up by visions of Death, Lust, the medieval \nbestiary, the Queen of Sheba, Roman, Egyptian, Buddhist, Hindu pantheons, \nGnosticism, and space, guided by Hilarion/the Devil. They don't seem \nparticularly close to Wolfe's vision. Specifically, Typhon doesn't \nresemble either Flaubert's Devil or the Emperor Constantine.\n\nJust 2c, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901ce3a81$2fa815a0$8ef840e0$@de>", "from": { "name": "Nessun Saprà", "address": "nessun-sapra at web.de" }, "date": "2013-04-16T09:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n\tinfluence on\t_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to a interview with Joan Gordon 1981 (reprinted in Wright’s\n\"Shadows\") GW’s favorite authors are \"Damon Knight, Kate Wilhelm, Joanna\nRuss, Ursula LeGuin, R. A. Lafferty, Saul Bellow and John Updike, with many\nmore among the living. Poe, Proust, Dickens, Chesterton, FLAUBERT, Orwell,\nThurber, Twain, Melville, Irving, Van Gulik, Kafka, Borges, Dosteyevsky,\nBulgakov \n\"\n\nNessuno\n\n\n-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----\nVon: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] Im\nAuftrag von Darth Ed\nGesendet: Dienstag, 16. April 2013 05:30\nAn: The Urth Mailing List\nBetreff: (urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as influence on\n_New Sun_?\n\nMy Wolfe reading group has been re-reading _The Book of the New Sun_ lately.\nFor about half the group, this is our third or fourth time reading it. For\nthe remainder, it is our second time.\n\nOne of our members remarked that he had recently read Gustave Flaubert's\n_The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ [*] and he was struck by how many words\nfrom _New Sun_'s antiquated vocabulary were used in _The Temptation of Saint\nAnthony_.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_(Flaubert)\n\nHe listed a half dozen examples, which I can't recall at the moment, but it\nwas a very convincing list. We all thought it was very possible that this\nnovel may have had a profound influence on Wolfe in his writing of _The Book\nof the New Sun_. The subject matter is certainly something that Wolfe might\nhave been interested in following his conversion to Catholicism. I thought\nsurely someone must have made this connection previously, but my searches of\nthe urth.net mailing list, WolfeWiki.com, and the web at large revealed no\ndiscussion that I could locate of any connection between Wolfe and\nFlaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_, except for *one* academic book\non Google Books:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=tE4FPNc8pr4C&lpg=PA106&ots=0GAiFFsx8a&dq=fl\naubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&pg=PA106#v=onepage&q=flaubert\n%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&f=false\n\nThe author of the essay rather matter-of-factly states, right after quoting\na passage from Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_:\n\n\"Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ obviously derived in equal part from the\n_Temptation_ and Borges's _Book of Imaginary Beings_ (which itself contains\nmany excerpts from the former source).\"\n\nSadly, the next page in that book is not visible on Google Books. A member\nof our group purchased the book from Google Books to check, and the Wolfe\ndiscussion pretty much ends with that sentence. Fortunately, Google Books\nhas a convenient return policy. :-)\n\nHas anyone here read Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ and would\ncare to comment?\n\nHas Wolfe made any comments concerning Flaubert or _The Temptation of Saint\nAnthony_ in any interviews?\n\nObviously, Borges' work has long been recognized as an influence on Wolfe\nand _New Sun_. Is this possible Flaubert connection relatively untrodden\nterritory? Or is this something generally known and my Google searches just\ndidn't turn up much discussion of it?\n\nThanks,\nEd" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-04-16T09:32:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n\tinfluence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Darth Ed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously, Borges' work has long been recognized as an influence on\nWolfe and _New Sun_. Is this possible Flaubert connection relatively\nuntrodden territory? Or is this something generally known and my\nGoogle searches just didn't turn up much discussion of it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fairly untrodden, I'd say. Proust seems to be the main go-to non-SF author \nother than Borges.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<516D2EB7.4000208@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-04-16T10:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n influence on\t_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not sure that Flaubert's \"The Temptation of Saint Anthony\" is \nreally an important source fo GW. The fact is,\nFlaubert borrowed on many sources, he is very eclectic (a word that GW \nlikes). To my\nmind, GW rather looked to the same sources, than was influenced by \nFlaubert. Similarly, Borges is not a primary\nsource. Apocryphal books, gnostic gospels, medieval bestiaries are, I \nthink, much more likely. I remember\nthat in one of gnostic gospels the recurrent idea was something like \n\"alas to the Man who is eaten by a Lion,\nblessed is the Lion eaten by a Man\" - it reminds us many situations in \nBotNS, true?\n\nRegards,\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Darth Ed wrote:\nMy Wolfe reading group has been re-reading _The Book of the New Sun_ lately. For about half the group, this is our third or fourth time reading it. For the remainder, it is our second time.\n\nOne of our members remarked that he had recently read Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ [*] and he was struck by how many words from _New Sun_'s antiquated vocabulary were used in _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_(Flaubert)\n\nHe listed a half dozen examples, which I can't recall at the moment, but it was a very convincing list. We all thought it was very possible that this novel may have had a profound influence on Wolfe in his writing of _The Book of the New Sun_. The subject matter is certainly something that Wolfe might have been interested in following his conversion to Catholicism. I thought surely someone must have made this connection previously, but my searches of the urth.net mailing list, WolfeWiki.com, and the web at large revealed no discussion that I could locate of any connection between Wolfe and Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_, except for *one* academic book on Google Books:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=tE4FPNc8pr4C&lpg=PA106&ots=0GAiFFsx8a&dq=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&pg=PA106#v=onepage&q=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&f=false\n\nThe author of the essay rather matter-of-factly states, right after quoting a passage from Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_:\n\n\"Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ obviously derived in equal part from the _Temptation_ and Borges's _Book of Imaginary Beings_ (which itself contains many excerpts from the former source).\"\n\nSadly, the next page in that book is not visible on Google Books. A member of our group purchased the book from Google Books to check, and the Wolfe discussion pretty much ends with that sentence. Fortunately, Google Books has a convenient return policy. :-)\n\nHas anyone here read Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ and would care to comment?\n\nHas Wolfe made any comments concerning Flaubert or _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ in any interviews?\n\nObviously, Borges' work has long been recognized as an influence on Wolfe and _New Sun_. Is this possible Flaubert connection relatively untrodden territory? Or is this something generally known and my Google searches just didn't turn up much discussion of it?\n\nThanks,\nEd\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<516D3EE2.80709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-04-16T12:06:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n influence on _New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<96BCFE08-BFAA-4A51-BF01-51EE9025FB64@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know who this Jason Price Everett guy is, but his workbook is \n... interesting. And Michael Moorcock likes him:\n\nhttp://8thhousepublishing.com/Shop/index.php?main_page=product_music_info&products_id=18" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/15/2013 11:29 PM, Darth Ed wrote:\nMy Wolfe reading group has been re-reading _The Book of the New Sun_ lately. For about half the group, this is our third or fourth time reading it. For the remainder, it is our second time.\n\nOne of our members remarked that he had recently read Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ [*] and he was struck by how many words from _New Sun_'s antiquated vocabulary were used in _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_(Flaubert)\n\nHe listed a half dozen examples, which I can't recall at the moment, but it was a very convincing list. We all thought it was very possible that this novel may have had a profound influence on Wolfe in his writing of _The Book of the New Sun_. The subject matter is certainly something that Wolfe might have been interested in following his conversion to Catholicism. I thought surely someone must have made this connection previously, but my searches of the urth.net mailing list, WolfeWiki.com, and the web at large revealed no discussion that I could locate of any connection between Wolfe and Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_, except for *one* academic book on Google Books:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=tE4FPNc8pr4C&lpg=PA106&ots=0GAiFFsx8a&dq=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&pg=PA106#v=onepage&q=flaubert%20gene%20wolfe%20new%20sun%20temptation&f=false\n\nThe author of the essay rather matter-of-factly states, right after quoting a passage from Gustave Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_:\n\n\"Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ obviously derived in equal part from the _Temptation_ and Borges's _Book of Imaginary Beings_ (which itself contains many excerpts from the former source).\"\n\nSadly, the next page in that book is not visible on Google Books. A member of our group purchased the book from Google Books to check, and the Wolfe discussion pretty much ends with that sentence. Fortunately, Google Books has a convenient return policy. :-)\n\nHas anyone here read Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ and would care to comment?\n\nHas Wolfe made any comments concerning Flaubert or _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ in any interviews?\n\nObviously, Borges' work has long been recognized as an influence on Wolfe and _New Sun_. Is this possible Flaubert connection relatively untrodden territory? Or is this something generally known and my Google searches just didn't turn up much discussion of it?\n\nThanks,\nEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Darth Ed", "address": "darthed77 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-04-17T19:53:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n\tinfluence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 16, 2013, at 4:59 AM, David Duffy wrote:\nWell that will depend on the translation, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, certainly, and a valid point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Looking through the gutenberg.org one (Dunne 1904). Yes, we see \"Erebus\", \"cynocephali\", etc. But most of the story is taken up by visions of Death, Lust, the medieval bestiary, the Queen of Sheba, Roman, Egyptian, Buddhist, Hindu pantheons, Gnosticism, and space, guided by Hilarion/the Devil. They don't seem particularly close to Wolfe's vision. Specifically, Typhon doesn't resemble either Flaubert's Devil or the Emperor Constantine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I made any claim to a thematic influence, simply one on the vocabulary used in _New Sun_; however, I would counter that Wolfe has written stories about many of those things (notably, the Roman and Egyptian pantheons, Gnosticism, and the Devil).\n\nNow that you mention it, I found the presence of a character named Typhon to be a particularly striking similarity. Erebus, too, although I only see a single mention of that name in the Gutenberg text. It would still be interesting to compare concordances, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 16, 2013, at 5:02 AM, Nessun Sapr? wrote:\nAccording to a interview with Joan Gordon 1981 (reprinted in Wright’s\n\"Shadows\") GW’s favorite authors are \"Damon Knight, Kate Wilhelm, Joanna\nRuss, Ursula LeGuin, R. A. Lafferty, Saul Bellow and John Updike, with many\nmore among the living. Poe, Proust, Dickens, Chesterton, FLAUBERT, Orwell,\nThurber, Twain, Melville, Irving, Van Gulik, Kafka, Borges, Dosteyevsky,\nBulgakov ?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fascinating! Thank you. I really should pick up a copy of \"Shadows\".\n\nHappy reading,\nEd" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5170068B.5010404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-04-18T14:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_\n as\tinfluence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of borrowed words, does anyone know of an earlier use of the \nterm \"autarch\" than by James Blish in his Cities in Flight novels? or, \nfor that matter, any other use?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2013-04-18T16:02:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n influence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<5170068B.5010404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nSpeaking of borrowed words, does anyone know of an earlier use of the term\n\"autarch\" than by James Blish in his Cities in Flight novels? or, for that\nmatter, any other use?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's surprisingly rare:\nhttp://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=autarch&year_start\u001800&year_end 00&corpus\u0015&smoothing=3&sharehttp://i.imgur.com/tvf6jCT.png\n\nA direct Google Books search from 1/1/1700 to 1/1/1950 turns up (\nhttps://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22autarch%22&gbv=2&sa=X&ei=yhZwUZbRIMep4AOygoHwDg&ved\fCYQpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbsÍr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1700%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1950&tbm=bks\n), after eliminating obvious duplicates, 17 results (archive of\nresults: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85192141/2013-googlebooks-autarch.html.maff\n):\n\n1. The Edinburgh Review of Critical Journal October 1824...January\n1825 - Page 334 books.google.com/books?id=WmIJAAAAQAAJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A Frank having made certain acquisitions, may be raised to the\nrank of Autarch. The election lies with the ... An Autarch, in\naddition to the rights of the Veteran Frank, is privileged from all\nfines ; but he receives no reward. The institution of ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2. The Edinburgh Review: Or Critical Journal - Volume 17 - Page 316;\nSydney Smith, Lord Francis Jeffrey Jeffrey, Macvey Napier - 1810\nbooks.google.com/books?id=AMfIvX8uFeAC" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hence, one of his S^nfcrit nanus, Vrifhndw.ija, li^nifyinj —\nwhofe enfign is a bull. \"Autarch informs uj, that ' iNilum pattern ac\nfervatorem fu-x re- iJ 4 gicuis, * gionis, ac defluxum Ofiridis\nnominant. ' The Ganges in. Moor's Hindu Pantheon...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "3. Public education: plans for the government and liberal instruction\n... - Page 56 Arthur Hill (teacher.) - 1825\nbooks.google.com/books?idúUAAAAAYAAJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "made certain acquisitions, may be raised to the rank of autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The election lies with the conference, the committee, and the previous\nautarchs, either of which bodies has a veto. An autarch, in addition\nto the rights of the veteran frank, ...\n4. History of Greece - Volume 1 - Page 284\nbooks.google.com/books?id=n3sLAAAAYAAJ George Grote - 1849" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... purified by reason, the aspect of history : in those cases\nwhere it haughtily scorns plausibility and will admit no alliance with\nwhat is probable, I shall beg for indulgent hearers, willing to\nreceive antique Autarch? narrative in a mild spirit2." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "5. Alliteration: An alliterated allocution by the letter A against ...\n- Page 22 books.google.com/books?id=ehIVAQAAMAAJ James Nelson Hulme -\n1882" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ynd Anglican aldermen and anarclials, A.nd arch-dukes, and\narch-priests, and admirals, Approving Ale, acquired an assuetude \\lish\nf and allowed Ale an amplitude About as ample as asks an autarch, 1" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As-ttite ' , — Critically examining or ...\n6. Catalog of Copyright Entries. New Series: 1934 - Part 1 - Page 32\nbooks.google.com/books?id=raMhAQAAIAAJ Library of Congress. Copyright\nOffice - 1935" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "31 Widmark, Lawrence Emil, 1889- An inquiry into the functioning\nof an industrial autarch}', by Lawr. E. Widmark ... cNew York, Albert\nBonnier publishing house, c1934] 3 p. 1., 9-60 p. diagrs. 231cm. \"Is\nmodern business mathematically ...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "7. Reflections on the rise and fall of the ancient republicks: ... -\nPage 148 books.google.com/books?id=QE1WAAAAYAAJ Edward Wortley Montagu\n- 1769" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... has handed down, to us a striking instance of this truth in\nthe case of Aristides, which is too remarkable i& be omitted. c When\nAristides was created Qu?stor, or high Treasurer of Athens, he fairly\nlaid be- * Demades, according to Autarch, ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "8. The Voyage of Fran?ois Pyrard of Laval to the East Indies, the ...\n- Issue 76, Volume 1 - Page 404 books.google.com/books?id=x4EMAAAAIAAJ\nFran?ois Pyrard, Pierre de Bergeron, J?r?me Bignon - 1887" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These porches or Autarch in front of the houses are for\nreceiving passing strangers, both for giving them meat and drink, and\nalso a place to rest and sleep ; they take them not inside their\nhouses, so that they may depart during the night when ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "9. Lives, translated from the Greek, with notes critical and ... -\nVolume 7 - Page 8 books.google.com/books?id=rFAMAAAAYAAJ Plutarch -\n1808" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... being ordered by the senate to repel force with force,\nattacked him, killed several of his men, and lost some of his own. By\nthis action he forseited the favour of the people : Put this was not\nthe only thing that rendered him & autarch's LIVES." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "10. The English portion of the library of the Ven. Francis Wrangham -\nPage 315 books.google.com/books?id=AMURAAAAIAAJ Francis Wrangham -\n1826" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See D'laraeli's autarch of Author/, and tit. Anecd. III. 887." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two Copies only of this Collection were printed on T'ine Paper : of\nwhich one was MM. at Dr. Farmer's Sale in it90, to Mr. Dent for 11.\n16*. ; and the ottrer, his own present to Mr. Reed, ...\n11. The Publishers' circular and general record of British and foreign\n... - Volume 33 - Page 777 books.google.com/books?id=aWVWAAAAYAAJ 1870" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ENGLISH WRITERS. Chapters for Self-Improvement in English" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Literature. DTHER PEOPLES WINDOWS. By the Author of 'Gentle Life.'\nLIBRARY EDITIONS OF STANDARD WORKS. AUTARCH'S LIVES. New Edition. By\nthe late A. H. Clougii.\n12. The whole critical works of Monsieur Rapin ...: Newly done into\n... - Page 398 books.google.com/books?id=UC1JAAAAMAAJ Ren? Rapin,\nThomas Taylor, Thomas Rymer - 1706" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His Know- autarch'' ren^re^ mra sensible of his Ignorance, and\nde Doctr. his Ingenuity prompted him, without Ceremony, Epicur. to\nconfess it. Epicurus had good Talents of Nature, and was a Philosopher\nin his very Pleasures : 'Tis a saying of ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "13. Niles' Weekly Register - Volume 15 - Page 225\nbooks.google.com/books?id=q_IaAAAAYAAJ Hezekiah Niles, William Ogden\nNiles - 1819" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "kiLkh, at t5 run am*um, patari.k in autarch. By th* assistance\nof a supplement, arranged to jiriailt the present regular number, we\nare enabled this week to dispose of the entire reports of Messrs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "HoBiirnnd Graham, on South- American affairs, ...\n14. The European Magazine, and London Review - Volumes 61-62 - Page\n210 books.google.com/books?id=NB8YAQAAIAAJ 1812" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... are of the exact species of writing of the Athente, critical\njustice demands from us, that we should slate of what species they are\n: and here we must refer their origin to a much more ancient prototype\nthan Anthony Woodi we mean, to Autarch, ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "15. Asiatic Journal - Volume 6 - Page 183\nbooks.google.com/books?id=PBQLAQAAMAAJ 1831" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have lost Mr. Creus, the Spanish Consul, and Mr. Autarch!,\nhis interpreter. At Cairo the mortality was less severe. The\nestablishment of the Pacha, the regiments and manufacturers, have\nsuffered most. We huve also to regret the loss of ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "16. Cobbett's Political Register - Volume 10\nbooks.google.com/books?id=iCM8AAAAIAAJ William Cobbett - 1806" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is only under autarch of triumph that you should return." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What! have , we braved the seasons, the seas, and the deserts ; have\nwe triumphed over Europe leagued against us ; have we borneour glory,\nfrom Orient to the Setting Sun, only to ...\n17. Hannah More - Page 76 books.google.com/books?id=8KwEAAAAYAAJ\nCharlotte Mary Yonge - 1888" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What little ornament there is I have bestowed, not injudiciously\nI trow, on the slenderest part. You will find but one episode, and\neven that does not obstruct the progress of the main subject ; and for\nparallels, I will be bold to say Autarch does ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can see there's a lot of Greco-Roman context in the hits, and in\none or two it looks like some sort of error ('autarch of triumph'?) or\nto be someone's name ('Mr. Autarch'). So overall, a very rare word\nindeed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<517025FB.6070209@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-04-18T16:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_\n as\tinfluence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<5170068B.5010404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was already mentioned that autarch means the same as \nautocrator, and\nautocrator was an official title of Byzantine emperors\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autokrator\n\nThe same title (translated into Russian) was among the titles of Russian \nemperors (\"samoderjets\").\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSpeaking of borrowed words, does anyone know of an earlier use of the \nterm \"autarch\" than by James Blish in his Cities in Flight novels? or, \nfor that matter, any other use?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51702EC7.5090009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-04-18T17:35:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_\n as\tinfluence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "<517025FB.6070209@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's a good point. It seems to be a rare secondary form but \ndirectly linked to Byzantium.\n\nI was actually more interested in /literary /usage, which I didn't make \nclear . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2013 12:57 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think it was already mentioned that autarch means the same as \nautocrator, and\nautocrator was an official title of Byzantine emperors\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autokrator\n\nThe same title (translated into Russian) was among the titles of \nRussian emperors (\"samoderjets\").\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of borrowed words, does anyone know of an earlier use of the \nterm \"autarch\" than by James Blish in his Cities in Flight novels? \nor, for that matter, any other use?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51703183.9080204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-04-18T17:46:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Flaubert's _The Temptation of Saint Anthony_ as\n influence on_New Sun_?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's an interesting tool. I'd guess the first real spike around \n1960 is Blish, the second is Wolfe, and the third is post-Wolfe SF, \nmaybe even fan fiction of a sort.\n\nSome of those hits must be \"Plutarch.\"\n\nAsimov's /The Stars Like Dust, /1951, also uses it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2013 12:02 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of borrowed words, does anyone know of an earlier use of the term\n\"autarch\" than by James Blish in his Cities in Flight novels? or, for that\nmatter, any other use?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's surprisingly rare:\nhttp://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=autarch&year_start\u001800&year_end 00&corpus\u0015&smoothing=3&share> http://i.imgur.com/tvf6jCT.png\n\nA direct Google Books search from 1/1/1700 to 1/1/1950 turns up (\nhttps://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22autarch%22&gbv=2&sa=X&ei=yhZwUZbRIMep4AOygoHwDg&ved\fCYQpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbsÍr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1700%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1950&tbm=bks\n), after eliminating obvious duplicates, 17 results (archive of\nresults: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85192141/2013-googlebooks-autarch.html.maff\n):\n\n1. The Edinburgh Review of Critical Journal October 1824...January\n1825 - Page 334 books.google.com/books?id=WmIJAAAAQAAJ\n\n > A Frank having made certain acquisitions, may be raised to the\nrank of Autarch. The election lies with the ... An Autarch, in\naddition to the rights of the Veteran Frank, is privileged from all\nfines ; but he receives no reward. The institution of ...\n2. The Edinburgh Review: Or Critical Journal - Volume 17 - Page 316;\nSydney Smith, Lord Francis Jeffrey Jeffrey, Macvey Napier - 1810\nbooks.google.com/books?id=AMfIvX8uFeAC\n\n > Hence, one of his S^nfcrit nanus, Vrifhndw.ija, li^nifyinj ?\nwhofe enfign is a bull. \"Autarch informs uj, that ' iNilum pattern ac\nfervatorem fu-x re- iJ 4 gicuis, * gionis, ac defluxum Ofiridis\nnominant. ' The Ganges in. Moor's Hindu Pantheon...\"\n3. Public education: plans for the government and liberal instruction\n... - Page 56 Arthur Hill (teacher.) - 1825\nbooks.google.com/books?idúUAAAAAYAAJ\n\n > made certain acquisitions, may be raised to the rank of autarch.\nThe election lies with the conference, the committee, and the previous\nautarchs, either of which bodies has a veto. An autarch, in addition\nto the rights of the veteran frank, ...\n4. History of Greece - Volume 1 - Page 284\nbooks.google.com/books?id=n3sLAAAAYAAJ George Grote - 1849\n\n > ... purified by reason, the aspect of history : in those cases\nwhere it haughtily scorns plausibility and will admit no alliance with\nwhat is probable, I shall beg for indulgent hearers, willing to\nreceive antique Autarch? narrative in a mild spirit2.\n5. Alliteration: An alliterated allocution by the letter A against ...\n- Page 22 books.google.com/books?id=ehIVAQAAMAAJ James Nelson Hulme -\n1882\n\n > Ynd Anglican aldermen and anarclials, A.nd arch-dukes, and\narch-priests, and admirals, Approving Ale, acquired an assuetude \\lish\nf and allowed Ale an amplitude About as ample as asks an autarch, 1\nAs-ttite ' , — Critically examining or ...\n6. Catalog of Copyright Entries. New Series: 1934 - Part 1 - Page 32\nbooks.google.com/books?id=raMhAQAAIAAJ Library of Congress. Copyright\nOffice - 1935\n > 31 Widmark, Lawrence Emil, 1889- An inquiry into the functioning\nof an industrial autarch}', by Lawr. E. Widmark ... cNew York, Albert\nBonnier publishing house, c1934] 3 p. 1., 9-60 p. diagrs. 231cm. \"Is\nmodern business mathematically ...\"\n7. Reflections on the rise and fall of the ancient republicks: ... -\nPage 148 books.google.com/books?id=QE1WAAAAYAAJ Edward Wortley Montagu\n- 1769\n\n > ... has handed down, to us a striking instance of this truth in\nthe case of Aristides, which is too remarkable i& be omitted. c When\nAristides was created Qu?stor, or high Treasurer of Athens, he fairly\nlaid be- * Demades, according to Autarch, ...\n8. The Voyage of Fran?ois Pyrard of Laval to the East Indies, the ...\n- Issue 76, Volume 1 - Page 404 books.google.com/books?id=x4EMAAAAIAAJ\nFran?ois Pyrard, Pierre de Bergeron, J?r?me Bignon - 1887\n\n > These porches or Autarch in front of the houses are for\nreceiving passing strangers, both for giving them meat and drink, and\nalso a place to rest and sleep ; they take them not inside their\nhouses, so that they may depart during the night when ...\n9. Lives, translated from the Greek, with notes critical and ... -\nVolume 7 - Page 8 books.google.com/books?id=rFAMAAAAYAAJ Plutarch -\n1808\n\n > ... being ordered by the senate to repel force with force,\nattacked him, killed several of his men, and lost some of his own. By\nthis action he forseited the favour of the people : Put this was not\nthe only thing that rendered him & autarch's LIVES.\n10. The English portion of the library of the Ven. Francis Wrangham -\nPage 315 books.google.com/books?id=AMURAAAAIAAJ Francis Wrangham -\n1826\n\n > See D'laraeli's autarch of Author/, and tit. Anecd. III. 887.\nTwo Copies only of this Collection were printed on T'ine Paper : of\nwhich one was MM. at Dr. Farmer's Sale in it90, to Mr. Dent for 11.\n16*. ; and the ottrer, his own present to Mr. Reed, ...\n11. The Publishers' circular and general record of British and foreign\n... - Volume 33 - Page 777 books.google.com/books?id=aWVWAAAAYAAJ 1870\n\n > ENGLISH WRITERS. Chapters for Self-Improvement in English\nLiterature. DTHER PEOPLES WINDOWS. By the Author of 'Gentle Life.'\nLIBRARY EDITIONS OF STANDARD WORKS. AUTARCH'S LIVES. New Edition. By\nthe late A. H. Clougii.\n12. The whole critical works of Monsieur Rapin ...: Newly done into\n... - Page 398 books.google.com/books?id=UC1JAAAAMAAJ Ren? Rapin,\nThomas Taylor, Thomas Rymer - 1706\n\n > His Know- autarch'' ren^re^ mra sensible of his Ignorance, and\nde Doctr. his Ingenuity prompted him, without Ceremony, Epicur. to\nconfess it. Epicurus had good Talents of Nature, and was a Philosopher\nin his very Pleasures : 'Tis a saying of ...\n13. Niles' Weekly Register - Volume 15 - Page 225\nbooks.google.com/books?id=q_IaAAAAYAAJ Hezekiah Niles, William Ogden\nNiles - 1819\n\n > kiLkh, at t5 run am*um, patari.k in autarch. By th* assistance\nof a supplement, arranged to jiriailt the present regular number, we\nare enabled this week to dispose of the entire reports of Messrs.\nHoBiirnnd Graham, on South- American affairs, ...\n14. The European Magazine, and London Review - Volumes 61-62 - Page\n210 books.google.com/books?id=NB8YAQAAIAAJ 1812\n\n > ... are of the exact species of writing of the Athente, critical\njustice demands from us, that we should slate of what species they are\n: and here we must refer their origin to a much more ancient prototype\nthan Anthony Woodi we mean, to Autarch, ...\n15. Asiatic Journal - Volume 6 - Page 183\nbooks.google.com/books?id=PBQLAQAAMAAJ 1831\n\n > We have lost Mr. Creus, the Spanish Consul, and Mr. Autarch!,\nhis interpreter. At Cairo the mortality was less severe. The\nestablishment of the Pacha, the regiments and manufacturers, have\nsuffered most. We huve also to regret the loss of ...\n16. Cobbett's Political Register - Volume 10\nbooks.google.com/books?id=iCM8AAAAIAAJ William Cobbett - 1806\n\n > It is only under autarch of triumph that you should return.\nWhat! have , we braved the seasons, the seas, and the deserts ; have\nwe triumphed over Europe leagued against us ; have we borneour glory,\nfrom Orient to the Setting Sun, only to ...\n17. Hannah More - Page 76 books.google.com/books?id=8KwEAAAAYAAJ\nCharlotte Mary Yonge - 1888\n\n > What little ornament there is I have bestowed, not injudiciously\nI trow, on the slenderest part. You will find but one episode, and\neven that does not obstruct the progress of the main subject ; and for\nparallels, I will be bold to say Autarch does ...\n\nWe can see there's a lot of Greco-Roman context in the hits, and in\none or two it looks like some sort of error ('autarch of triumph'?) or\nto be someone's name ('Mr. Autarch'). So overall, a very rare word\nindeed." } ] } ] }