{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6375", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6375, "subject": "Agilus and Agia", "messages": 57, "voices": 11, "first": "2013-05-01T14:54:32+00:00", "last": "2013-05-08T22:03:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-01T14:54:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: I have always wondered about the ribbons above Agilus' ears, though. And\nBorski's explanation doesn't satisfy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember Borski's explanation on the ribbons but I think there are a number \nof subtle hints to be found in the various attributes and acoutrements of these two. \nFor example, Agia mentions inheriting a \"misericorde\" from her mother. This is a slim \nblade used for the purpose of battlefield mercy killings. This is enough for me to \nconclude that their mother was a Pelerine, though I'm sure not all would concur. For\nme these clues plus others help me place the twins within Severian's family tree.\n\nAgia is observed scratching out a depiction of a \"jurupari\". This is the name for a \ncertain S.A. fish whose name translates to \"demon eartheater\" and also a S.A. mythical\nmonster that swallows its human prey whole so that they think they are in a cave. I think\nthis is a foreshadow of the man-ape cave to which Agia leads Severian and helps explain\nthe enormous being Severian senses below it. (it connects to the Fish Mouth/Fomalhaut \ntheme also)\n\nWith regard to Agilus' apparently painted on head stripes, my best guess is that this\nforeshadows and connects to the face and body painting of the Jungle Sorcercers. They, \nlike Agilus, use trickery in an attempt to take Terminus Est from Severian.\n\nMoreover these clues plus others (e.g. the black bean or seed) seem to connect these twins,\nlike the Jungle Sorcerers, to an anti-New Sun cult which is likely connected to the \nmegatherians curently ruling Urth. As the caloyer of Saltus tells us, such beings will\nbe swept away by the coming of the New Sun. Agia and Agilus are part of a series of traps\nor tests which have been set for Severian to encounter on his journey. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1367423145.41594.YahooMailNeo@web84503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-01T15:45:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find those points difficult to argue with. I also had not considered the misericorde-Pelerine connection---it seems strong.\n\n\nIt reminds me that one of the things that makes BNS hard to sort out is that Wolfe's archaisms can hide correspondences. If one woman has a stiletto or a rondel and another a misericorde, we think at first read that the author is merely being pedantic. But the symbolism of the misericorde cannot be set aside. Wolfe used that term for its precise meaning: mercy.Terminus Est is also a misericorde of sorts, but Severian is a kind of misericorde for Urth. Several characters seem to have an unhealthy fascination with death, in sharp contrast with Severian's professional demeanor; is it much surprise that Agila and Hethor end up together?\n\n\nI think Agilus is definitely intended to be read as a wearer of masks. The ribbons stay on because he keeps them on, ready to put on another mask at a moment's notice. He wears a mask (with the same ribbons) under his septentrion's helm---whether it's the same death's head mask or not---and this is of course a clue that it's him. The wearing of masks points to the warlocks. I don't think the ribbons need to be painted on---such behavior does not correlate with anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:54 AM\nSubject: (urth) Agilus and Agia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aaron: I have always wondered about the ribbons above Agilus' ears, though. And\nBorski's explanation doesn't satisfy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember Borski's explanation on the ribbons but I think there are a number \nof subtle hints to be found in the various attributes and acoutrements of these two. \nFor example, Agia mentions inheriting a \"misericorde\" from her mother. This is a slim \nblade used for the purpose of battlefield mercy killings. This is enough for me to \nconclude that their mother was a Pelerine, though I'm sure not all would concur. For\nme these clues plus others help me place the twins within Severian's family tree.\n\nAgia is observed scratching out a depiction of a \"jurupari\". This is the name for a \ncertain S.A. fish whose name translates to \"demon eartheater\" and also a S.A. mythical\nmonster that swallows its human prey whole so that they think they are in a cave. I think\nthis is a foreshadow of the man-ape cave to which Agia leads Severian and helps explain\nthe enormous being Severian senses below it. (it connects to the Fish Mouth/Fomalhaut \ntheme also)\n\nWith regard to Agilus' apparently painted on head stripes, my best guess is that this\nforeshadows and connects to the face and body painting of the Jungle Sorcercers. They, \nlike Agilus, use trickery in an attempt to take Terminus Est from Severian.\n\nMoreover these clues plus others (e.g. the black bean or seed) seem to connect these twins,\nlike the Jungle Sorcerers, to an anti-New Sun cult which is likely connected to the \nmegatherians curently ruling Urth. As the caloyer of Saltus tells us, such beings will\nbe swept away by the coming of the New Sun. Agia and Agilus are part of a series of traps\nor tests which have been set for Severian to encounter on his journey. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-01T17:21:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1367423145.41594.YahooMailNeo@web84503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face paint, thus\nrelated to the jungle sorcerers. I also agree that Agilus is portrayed as\na wearer of masks and as a result, is not to be trusted. Perhaps this was\nSev's way of hinting about the twins' true nature. It also makes me think\nof the masks worn by the Hierodules. I cannot remember if any of this was\ncovered in UotNS as it's been so long since I read it. It is a book that\nbegs a re-read, and a much under-appreciated work of Wolfe's. I do\nremember it being dense and heavy at times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:45 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI find those points difficult to argue with. I also had not considered the\nmisericorde-Pelerine connection---it seems strong.\n\nIt reminds me that one of the things that makes BNS hard to sort out is\nthat Wolfe's archaisms can hide correspondences. If one woman has a\nstiletto or a rondel and another a misericorde, we think at first read that\nthe author is merely being pedantic. But the symbolism of the misericorde\ncannot be set aside. Wolfe used that term for its precise meaning: mercy. Terminus\nEst is also a misericorde of sorts, but Severian is a kind of misericorde\nfor Urth. Several characters seem to have an unhealthy fascination with\ndeath, in sharp contrast with Severian's professional demeanor; is it much\nsurprise that Agila and Hethor end up together?\n\nI think Agilus is definitely intended to be read as a wearer of masks. The\nribbons stay on because he keeps them on, ready to put on another mask at a\nmoment's notice. He wears a mask (with the same ribbons) under his\nseptentrion's helm---whether it's the same death's head mask or not---and\nthis is of course a clue that it's him. The wearing of masks points to the\nwarlocks. I don't think the ribbons need to be painted on---such behavior\ndoes not correlate with anything.\n\n ------------------------------\n *From:* Lee Berman \n*To:* \"urth at urth.net\" \n*Sent:* Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:54 AM\n*Subject:* (urth) Agilus and Agia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aaron: I have always wondered about the ribbons above Agilus' ears,\nthough. And\nBorski's explanation doesn't satisfy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember Borski's explanation on the ribbons but I think there are\na number\nof subtle hints to be found in the various attributes and acoutrements of\nthese two.\nFor example, Agia mentions inheriting a \"misericorde\" from her mother.\nThis is a slim\nblade used for the purpose of battlefield mercy killings. This is enough\nfor me to\nconclude that their mother was a Pelerine, though I'm sure not all would\nconcur. For\nme these clues plus others help me place the twins within Severian's\nfamily tree.\n\nAgia is observed scratching out a depiction of a \"jurupari\". This is the\nname for a\ncertain S.A. fish whose name translates to \"demon eartheater\" and also a\nS.A. mythical\nmonster that swallows its human prey whole so that they think they are in\na cave. I think\nthis is a foreshadow of the man-ape cave to which Agia leads Severian and\nhelps explain\nthe enormous being Severian senses below it. (it connects to the Fish\nMouth/Fomalhaut\ntheme also)\n\nWith regard to Agilus' apparently painted on head stripes, my best guess\nis that this\nforeshadows and connects to the face and body painting of the Jungle\nSorcercers. They,\nlike Agilus, use trickery in an attempt to take Terminus Est from Severian.\n\nMoreover these clues plus others (e.g. the black bean or seed) seem to\nconnect these twins,\nlike the Jungle Sorcerers, to an anti-New Sun cult which is likely\nconnected to the\nmegatherians curently ruling Urth. As the caloyer of Saltus tells us, such\nbeings will\nbe swept away by the coming of the New Sun. Agia and Agilus are part of a\nseries of traps\nor tests which have been set for Severian to encounter on his journey.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<518161F3.2060708@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-01T18:41:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\nI think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face paint, thus\nrelated to the jungle sorcerers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and make-up as \nwell? That would explain the elongated eyes..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-01T20:38:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<518161F3.2060708@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the stripe above\nAgilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an indication of Agilus'\ndishonesty, that he is a man who wears many masks, what is the plowman's\nmeaning here? The only plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the\nface paint of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\nscribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but little else. I am\nstill not satisfied with the explanation, but it will serve as a\nplaceholder as it has for years. I still can't shake the relation to the\nmasks of the Hierodules. Perhaps someday I will come across a better\ntheory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face paint, thus\nrelated to the jungle sorcerers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and make-up as\nwell? That would explain the elongated eyes...\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51818C22.1080207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-01T21:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be a ribbon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:\nNot so sure about hair, but something has to explain the stripe above \nAgilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an indication of Agilus' \ndishonesty, that he is a man who wears many masks, what is the \nplowman's meaning here? The only plausible, however far-fetched, \nexplanation is the face paint of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the \nevidence of Agia's scribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, \nbut little else. I am still not satisfied with the explanation, but \nit will serve as a placeholder as it has for years. I still can't \nshake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules. Perhaps someday I \nwill come across a better theory.\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated eyes...\n\n\n -- \n Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com \n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-01T22:29:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<51818C22.1080207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be, but a ribbon wouldn't just hang there suspended. Think about\na string or ribbon that holds up a mask. Remove the mask and the ribbon\nwould just fall off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:41 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt could be a ribbon.\n\n\nOn 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the stripe above\nAgilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an indication of Agilus'\ndishonesty, that he is a man who wears many masks, what is the plowman's\nmeaning here? The only plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the\nface paint of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\nscribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but little else. I am\nstill not satisfied with the explanation, but it will serve as a\nplaceholder as it has for years. I still can't shake the relation to the\nmasks of the Hierodules. Perhaps someday I will come across a better\ntheory.\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated eyes...\n\n\n -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com \n\n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5181A66A.9060806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-01T23:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not if it's tucked over/behind the ears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/1/2013 6:29 PM, aaron wrote:\nIt could be, but a ribbon wouldn't just hang there suspended. Think \nabout a string or ribbon that holds up a mask. Remove the mask and \nthe ribbon would just fall off.\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:41 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n It could be a ribbon.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the\n stripe above Agilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an\n indication of Agilus' dishonesty, that he is a man who wears\n many masks, what is the plowman's meaning here? The only\n plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the face paint\n of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\n scribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but little\n else. I am still not satisfied with the explanation, but it\n will serve as a placeholder as it has for years. I still\n can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules.\n Perhaps someday I will come across a better theory.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson\n \n >>\n wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated eyes...\n\n\n -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\n >\n\n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T03:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5181A66A.9060806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose. I guess it's just a feeling that there is something I'm missing\nabout Agilus that has yet to be explained to my own satisfaction. For me,\nnone of the theories presented fit. Are they possible? Sure they are.\nBut they don't feel right. And the same goes for the character of Father\nInire. Don't even get me started on that subject. I even asked Wolfe\nabout Inire's appearances (or lack of) in TBotNS, and he basically just\nsaid \"Maybe he's there, maybe he's not.\" Cute, huh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNot if it's tucked over/behind the ears.\n\n\nOn 5/1/2013 6:29 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It could be, but a ribbon wouldn't just hang there suspended. Think\nabout a string or ribbon that holds up a mask. Remove the mask and the\nribbon would just fall off.\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:41 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n It could be a ribbon.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the\n stripe above Agilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an\n indication of Agilus' dishonesty, that he is a man who wears\n many masks, what is the plowman's meaning here? The only\n plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the face paint\n of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\n scribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but little\n else. I am still not satisfied with the explanation, but it\n will serve as a placeholder as it has for years. I still\n can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules.\n Perhaps someday I will come across a better theory.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson\n \n >**>\n\n wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated eyes...\n\n\n -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\n >\n\n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5181DCF3.5090403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-02T03:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Schrodinger's vizier?\n\nNow I'll have to lie awake considering the ramifications of Father \nInire's potential nonexistence . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/1/2013 11:10 PM, aaron wrote:\nI suppose. I guess it's just a feeling that there is something I'm \nmissing about Agilus that has yet to be explained to my own \nsatisfaction. For me, none of the theories presented fit. Are they \npossible? Sure they are. But they don't feel right. And the same \ngoes for the character of Father Inire. Don't even get me started on \nthat subject. I even asked Wolfe about Inire's appearances (or lack \nof) in TBotNS, and he basically just said \"Maybe he's there, maybe \nhe's not.\" Cute, huh?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:34 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Not if it's tucked over/behind the ears.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 6:29 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n It could be, but a ribbon wouldn't just hang there suspended.\n Think about a string or ribbon that holds up a mask. Remove\n the mask and the ribbon would just fall off.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:41 PM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n It could be a ribbon.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the\n stripe above Agilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an\n indication of Agilus' dishonesty, that he is a man who\n wears\n many masks, what is the plowman's meaning here? The only\n plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the\n face paint\n of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\n scribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but\n little\n else. I am still not satisfied with the explanation,\n but it\n will serve as a placeholder as it has for years. I still\n can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules.\n Perhaps someday I will come across a better theory.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson\n \n >\n >>>\n\n wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the\n stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but\n do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated\n eyes...\n\n\n -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\n \n > \n\n >>\n\n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\n Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T05:49:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5181DCF3.5090403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome to my personal Hell. Have fun!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSchrodinger's vizier?\n\nNow I'll have to lie awake considering the ramifications of Father Inire's\npotential nonexistence . . .\n\n\nOn 5/1/2013 11:10 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose. I guess it's just a feeling that there is something I'm\nmissing about Agilus that has yet to be explained to my own satisfaction.\n For me, none of the theories presented fit. Are they possible? Sure they\nare. But they don't feel right. And the same goes for the character of\nFather Inire. Don't even get me started on that subject. I even asked\nWolfe about Inire's appearances (or lack of) in TBotNS, and he basically\njust said \"Maybe he's there, maybe he's not.\" Cute, huh?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:34 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Not if it's tucked over/behind the ears.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 6:29 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n It could be, but a ribbon wouldn't just hang there suspended.\n Think about a string or ribbon that holds up a mask. Remove\n the mask and the ribbon would just fall off.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:41 PM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n It could be a ribbon.\n\n\n On 5/1/2013 4:38 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n Not so sure about hair, but something has to explain the\n stripe above Agilus' ear. While I don't doubt it is an\n indication of Agilus' dishonesty, that he is a man who\n wears\n many masks, what is the plowman's meaning here? The only\n plausible, however far-fetched, explanation is the\n face paint\n of the Jungle Sorcerers. We have the evidence of Agia's\n scribbling the symbol on the floor of the dungeon, but\n little\n else. I am still not satisfied with the explanation,\n but it\n will serve as a placeholder as it has for years. I still\n can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules.\n Perhaps someday I will come across a better theory.\n\n\n On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson\n \n >\n >**>>\n\n wrote:\n\n On 5/1/2013 12:21 PM, aaron wrote:\n\n I think I have read somewhere about the\n stripes being face\n paint, thus\n related to the jungle sorcerers.\n\n\n So Agia and Agilus don't just play dress-up, but\n do hair and\n make-up as well? That would explain the elongated\n eyes...\n\n\n -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\n \n > \n\n >**>\n\n Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\n Texarkana\n < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<16FFDB3C13674D95AC4B223AEF815827@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T11:04:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me the interesting aspect of Agia/Agilus is how Agia becomes entwined in \nSeverian's story, becoming in some sense his Nemesis. It would have been \npossible to leave her at the end of the first book, but instead she becomes \na recurring villain, and eventually becomes as Vodalus was to the previous \nAutarch.\n\nI'm not inclined to pay too much heed to the masks and whether they imply a \nconnection to sorcerors etc. Agilus's mask is, after all, the modus \noperandi [somehow I want to make a fake singular 'operandum'] of the con \ngame which we know they have played on travellers before. They want to \nseparate Severian from his valuable sword, at the cost of his life if \nnecessary.\n\nBut the question remains, why so *many* tests and trials. We expect the \nhero to have to overcome certain difficulties on his journey, but does \nSeverian suffer more than we would expect, and do they more commonly than we \nwould expect take the shape of tests and trials, which of course resonates \nwith the overarching plot. Obviously some element that can be interpreted \nin this way exists in all hero stories, and I think one would have a hard \ntime *proving* that there is more of it in BotNS. But let us say such a \nseries of tests is intended: then who is setting them?\n\nThe Hierodules have motive, but unless everyone is their direct puppet it is \nhard to see how they could organise tests of a specific kind. Abaia might \ntempt Severian, or Agia try to kill him, but both are seemingly operating \naccording to their own motives. The same goes for Typhon, the sorcerors and \nthe rest. It doesn't seem feasible that *someone* is orchestrating events \ndirectly.\n\nBut suppose we consider a more science-fictional explanation, based on the \ncyclic universe concept. Severian is not the first Severian - so he \ndeclares himself, and the adventures of the first Severian were different in \ndetail. Perhaps there was a series of iterations [considered as a series in \nsome kind of pseudo-time dimension, obviously] of which the history of the \nbook's Severian is the final successful case [an interesting opposite to the \nstory in 5HOC].\n\nOver the successive iterations, the moving parts become enmeshed in a \nmachine that leads to the Severian who will bring the New Sun. It is the \nNew Sun - or Whatever is behind it - which ultimately selects the history \nthat brings about its creation. No personality or group in the story, not \neven the Hierodules, are controlling events. The New Sun creates reality - \ntimelines that are incompatible with it - such as the timeline of Master Ash \nor the first Severian - fade away.\n\nObviously the Hierodules understand this process, but they themselves are \nmoving parts like all the rest. The tests and trials are as they are \nbecause that is the series of trials that will create the Severian who \nbrings the New Sun. Agia plays her part, but she is not directly motivated \nin any way to set tests. But this is the Agia who happens to set the right \ntests. In other iterations there were other Agias who acted somewhat \ndifferently and perhaps had more or less success.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T12:07:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<16FFDB3C13674D95AC4B223AEF815827@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The wearing of masks points to the warlocks. I don't think the\nribbons need to be painted on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it must have been Borski who suggested the ribbons were painted on. But if\nthe mask itself ties Agilus to the Jungle Sorcerers I don't have much of an opinion\neither way. Agia's use of the \"athame\", the warlock's blade, also fits into this\nconnection. So after Agilus' death, Agia replaces one warlock with another, Hethor. \n\n(just learned that the athame is the sword which is represented in the four suits of\ntarot cards- wands, cups and pentacles being the other three. Interesting.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: I still can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the demonic connection we get for Agilus and Agia, I think the relationship of\nthese sets of masks is quite apt. There is some veiled recognition in UotNS that Biblical\nangels are the same sort of beings as demons, except that the latter are fallen. There\nwill always be some connections between the two.\n\nSo if the servants of the angels wear masks on Urth, we may expect the servants of\ndemons, like Agilus and the Jungle Sorcerers, to do likewise in symmetry. (of course \nSeverian also wears a mask when performing his guild's work....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I even asked Wolfe about Inire's appearances (or lack of) in TBotNS, and he basically \njust said \"Maybe he's there, maybe he's not.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D.S.: Schrodinger's vizier? Now I'll have to lie awake considering the ramifications of \nFather Inire's potential nonexistence . . .\n\nHeh! Well, Inire does write Severian a letter and he appears in the stories of several \nother characters so I think his non-existence isn't a well supported theory.\n\nIn my opinion, Father Inire's appearances are a mystery along the same lines as identifying\nSeverian's family. There are a few very strong, highly likely examples. Then there some\nmoderately strong examples which are a bit harder to spot. Finally, there are a handful of \npossible but very tenuously evidenced examples. I think Wolfe wrote these mysteries \ndeliberately that way and it is accurate, even for him, to say \"maybe, maybe not\" for the \nfinal group.\n\nFWIW, I think the strongest examples of family members are Dorcas and Ouen while the strongest\nInire appearances are the cowled servitor in House Absolute and the masked jungle guide. Some\nmoderately supported family members are Catherine, Cyriaca and Agia/Agilus while some moderately \nsupported Inire appearances are Isangoma, the old boatman and the baboon who checks in on Severian \nafter avern wound. (I'm tempted to include Hethor also because the mirror/monster and young girl\nattaction are such compelling connections to Inire for me. But not for many others, I think) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<51825926.7050306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-02T12:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<16FFDB3C13674D95AC4B223AEF815827@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/2/2013 7:04 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFor me the interesting aspect of Agia/Agilus is how Agia becomes \nentwined in Severian's story, becoming in some sense his Nemesis. It \nwould have been possible to leave her at the end of the first book, \nbut instead she becomes a recurring villain, and eventually becomes as \nVodalus was to the previous Autarch.\n\nI'm not inclined to pay too much heed to the masks and whether they \nimply a connection to sorcerors etc. Agilus's mask is, after all, the \nmodus operandi [somehow I want to make a fake singular 'operandum'] of \nthe con game which we know they have played on travellers before. \nThey want to separate Severian from his valuable sword, at the cost of \nhis life if necessary.\n\nBut the question remains, why so *many* tests and trials. We expect \nthe hero to have to overcome certain difficulties on his journey, but \ndoes Severian suffer more than we would expect, and do they more \ncommonly than we would expect take the shape of tests and trials, \nwhich of course resonates with the overarching plot. Obviously some \nelement that can be interpreted in this way exists in all hero \nstories, and I think one would have a hard time *proving* that there \nis more of it in BotNS. But let us say such a series of tests is \nintended: then who is setting them?\n\nThe Hierodules have motive, but unless everyone is their direct puppet \nit is hard to see how they could organise tests of a specific kind. \nAbaia might tempt Severian, or Agia try to kill him, but both are \nseemingly operating according to their own motives. The same goes for \nTyphon, the sorcerors and the rest. It doesn't seem feasible that \n*someone* is orchestrating events directly.\n\nBut suppose we consider a more science-fictional explanation, based on \nthe cyclic universe concept. Severian is not the first Severian - so \nhe declares himself, and the adventures of the first Severian were \ndifferent in detail. Perhaps there was a series of iterations \n[considered as a series in some kind of pseudo-time dimension, \nobviously] of which the history of the book's Severian is the final \nsuccessful case [an interesting opposite to the story in 5HOC].\n\n*Over the successive iterations, the moving parts become enmeshed in a \nmachine that leads to the Severian who will bring the New Sun. It is \nthe New Sun - or Whatever is behind it - which ultimately selects the \nhistory that brings about its creation. No personality or group in \nthe story, not even the Hierodules, are controlling events. The New \nSun creates reality - timelines that are incompatible with it - such \nas the timeline of Master Ash or the first Severian - fade away. *\n\n*Obviously the Hierodules understand this process, but they themselves \nare moving parts like all the rest. The tests and trials are as they \nare because that is the series of trials that will create the Severian \nwho brings the New Sun. Agia plays her part, but she is not directly \nmotivated in any way to set tests. But this is the Agia who happens \nto set the right tests. In other iterations there were other Agias \nwho acted somewhat differently and perhaps had more or less success. *\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I absolutely agree. The Hierodules merely manage the iterations---they \ndon't direct them. It's time/history/chance/evolution that \"directs\" \nthem to the extent they are directed at all. The New Sun creates itself \nin the process, and it is the \"head\" of the process. I suppose you could \nsay it looks back on its creation and judges it \"good.\"\n\nIt's bigger than Inire, that's certain. It's not just a huge conspiracy \nrun by some tentacle-faced little man behind a curtain. And that's a \ngreat observation about contrast with 5HOC, especially given recent \ndiscussion about the relation/opposition between it and BNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T12:34:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<51825926.7050306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Over the successive iterations, the moving parts become enmeshed in a \nmachine that leads to the Severian who will bring the New Sun. It is the \nNew Sun - or Whatever is behind it - which ultimately selects the history \nthat brings about its creation. No personality or group in the story, not \neven the Hierodules, are controlling events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent post Gerry. I am reminded of the Pelerine who tells Severian that his (and \nUrth's) story is more than just a conflict between good and evil. I am also reminded\nof Tzadkiel who compares humans to sentient pawns who can only move in a forward\ndirection and with a single step through time. Presumably, Tzadkiel is like a queen\nwho can move in multiple directions and multiple spaces in time.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe means us to extend the analogy and recognize that above the angels is\na presence which has an understanding of the game which goes far beyond that of a \nqueen. One which not only understands the purpose of each piece's movement but the\nmovements of all pieces on both sides of the chess board. And even beyond that to an \nunderstanding of all the movements of all the pieces of all chess games ever played.\n\nI think it is interesting that the answer you present as an SF answer seems actually to \ndelve into theology. Perhaps we agnostics must be careful getting too deeply into Wolfe\nand risk becoming believers. ;-) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T13:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But the question remains, why so *many* tests and trials. We expect \nthe hero to have to overcome certain difficulties on his journey, but \ndoes Severian suffer more than we would expect, and do they more \ncommonly than we would expect take the shape of tests and trials," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the nature of this story almost requires it to be a series of trials and tests,\nthough we, being almost as ignorant as Severian, don't really know that until we are\ndone reading and have had time to ponder.\n\nA first person-told-tale could be about the narrator's personal relationships in life \nbut with Severian, it eventually becomes clear that those are not important. Severian\nis meant to be alone in the universe and his trials and tests and eventual destination\nend up mattering even more than he does or the people who are important to him.\n\nThus is it with all Campbellian heroes, including Jesus. They have the Marys and Judases\nthe Ariadnes and the Andromedas in their lives but they are incidental to the trials and \ntribulations our hero passes through. We are meant to admire and even worship these heroes,\nbut we know that they are essentially a different breed than we are. Their purpose in life \nis to serve as our savior, eschewing a normal life, sacrificng their own personal human \nneeds so that we may fulfill ours. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<51826CCC.4040207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T13:40:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<16FFDB3C13674D95AC4B223AEF815827@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (02-05-2013 12:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the New Sun - or Whatever is behind it - which ultimately selects the\nhistory that brings about its creation. No personality or group in the\nstory, not even the Hierodules, are controlling events. The New Sun creates\nreality - timelines that are incompatible with it - such as the timeline of\nMaster Ash or the first Severian - fade away.\n\nObviously the Hierodules understand this process, but they themselves are\nmoving parts like all the rest. The tests and trials are as they are\nbecause that is the series of trials that will create the Severian who\nbrings the New Sun. Agia plays her part, but she is not directly motivated\nin any way to set tests. But this is the Agia who happens to set the right\ntests. In other iterations there were other Agias who acted somewhat\ndifferently and perhaps had more or less success." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just that I find this perspective essentially ungreat." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T14:05:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never considered that Hethor and Father Inire might in some way be\nrelated. It seems so obvious now that you mention it. Oh, to D.S.-\nWolfe's response was in answer to the question of Father Inire's on- stage\nappearance in the Book. I never doubted the character's existence, but\nhis non-appearance is something that has intrigued me for some time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: The wearing of masks points to the warlocks. I don't\nthink the\nribbons need to be painted on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it must have been Borski who suggested the ribbons were painted\non. But if\nthe mask itself ties Agilus to the Jungle Sorcerers I don't have much of\nan opinion\neither way. Agia's use of the \"athame\", the warlock's blade, also fits\ninto this\nconnection. So after Agilus' death, Agia replaces one warlock with\nanother, Hethor.\n\n(just learned that the athame is the sword which is represented in the\nfour suits of\ntarot cards- wands, cups and pentacles being the other three. Interesting.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aaron: I still can't shake the relation to the masks of the Hierodules." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given the demonic connection we get for Agilus and Agia, I think the\nrelationship of\nthese sets of masks is quite apt. There is some veiled recognition in\nUotNS that Biblical\nangels are the same sort of beings as demons, except that the latter are\nfallen. There\nwill always be some connections between the two.\n\nSo if the servants of the angels wear masks on Urth, we may expect the\nservants of\ndemons, like Agilus and the Jungle Sorcerers, to do likewise in symmetry.\n(of course\nSeverian also wears a mask when performing his guild's work....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I even asked Wolfe about Inire's appearances (or lack of) in TBotNS, and\nhe basically\njust said \"Maybe he's there, maybe he's not.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "D.S.: Schrodinger's vizier? Now I'll have to lie awake considering the\nramifications of\nFather Inire's potential nonexistence . . .\n\nHeh! Well, Inire does write Severian a letter and he appears in the\nstories of several\nother characters so I think his non-existence isn't a well supported\ntheory.\n\nIn my opinion, Father Inire's appearances are a mystery along the same\nlines as identifying\nSeverian's family. There are a few very strong, highly likely examples.\nThen there some\nmoderately strong examples which are a bit harder to spot. Finally, there\nare a handful of\npossible but very tenuously evidenced examples. I think Wolfe wrote these\nmysteries\ndeliberately that way and it is accurate, even for him, to say \"maybe,\nmaybe not\" for the\nfinal group.\n\nFWIW, I think the strongest examples of family members are Dorcas and Ouen\nwhile the strongest\nInire appearances are the cowled servitor in House Absolute and the masked\njungle guide. Some\nmoderately supported family members are Catherine, Cyriaca and Agia/Agilus\nwhile some moderately\nsupported Inire appearances are Isangoma, the old boatman and the baboon\nwho checks in on Severian\nafter avern wound. (I'm tempted to include Hethor also because the\nmirror/monster and young girl\nattaction are such compelling connections to Inire for me. But not for\nmany others, I think)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5182792C.1040800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-02T14:33:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/2/2013 10:05 AM, aaron wrote:\nNever considered that Hethor and Father Inire might in some way be \nrelated. It seems so obvious now that you mention it. Oh, to D.S.- \nWolfe's response was in answer to the question of Father Inire's on- \nstage appearance in the Book. I never doubted the character's \nexistence, but his non-appearance is something that has intrigued me \nfor some time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whew! That's better.\n\nWolfe's answer is accurate, then---Inire's appearances ARE like the cat \nin the box: he's both there and not there. It's interesting that he \ndoesn't seem to do anything at these suspected appearances; for the most \npart, he's just \"there.\" (Or not.) They're nonessential clues. We can \ntake them or leave them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T17:27:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5182792C.1040800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: Never considered that Hethor and Father Inire might in some way be related." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I appreciate that you put it that way. Just saying \"Hethor is Father Inire\" is a \nshorthand but misleading way of saying it. Like Shadow Children and The Neighbors,\nI think we are dealing with plural beings, a difficult concept for we humans to \ngrasp. But likely drawn from Biblical angel descriptions and the multi-persona\nabilities of ancient mythological gods.\n\nThe best illustration we get of it in BotNS is with Tzadkiel and his multi-size,\nmulti-species, multi-gender incarnations. We are shown that he can be at least \ntwo characters at once when she pinches off one of her fingers which reforms to a\nhuman size and shape (and the fairy sized Tzadkiel we see soon after).\n\nI think we are given every reason to believe the same thing is happening on Urth\nwith Abaia, undines etc. Tzadkiel is an angel analog and undines are specifically \nidentified as demons/fallen angel analogs at the end of UotNS. I think certain \n(roughly) human shaped and sized characters such as Typhon and Father Inire also \nfall into the same category." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Wolfe's answer is accurate, then---Inire's appearances ARE like the \ncat in the box: he's both there and not there. It's interesting that he \ndoesn't seem to do anything at these suspected appearances; for the most \npart, he's just \"there.\" (Or not.) They're nonessential clues. We can \ntake them or leave them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. Brings up the interesting point for me of what Father Inire is actually doing\nat each of his (ostensible) anonymous appearances. I think it is structured like\nThe House Absolute/Secret House (and BotNS itself). There is an open and rather\nbanal purpose to each appearance and a hidden purpose which can be revealed by \nknowing who and what Father Inire is.\n\nThe bent, little cowled servitor is merely an assistant who takes Severian to \nwhere he wishes to go, a festival called the \"thiasus\". This word most specifically\nrefers to a festival devoted to the god Dionysus. I didn't catch the significance of\nthat until I had read RttW and was told by Wolfe about the significance of \nDionysus, Pan and the connection with The Outsider, to this universe. (could there\nbe a connection to Master Ash's otherwise unexplained longing for \"Vine\"?)\n\nThe bent, little old boatman is supposedly looking for the body of his long dead\nwife, whom we don't learn is Dorcas until the end of CotA. This surprise is enough\nto divert us from remembering what a ridiculous coincidence it is for Severian to\nfind that exact body for resurrection, not to mention that it happens to be his\ngrandmother. If we recognize the bent, little guy as Father Inire, the concidence\nis revealed not to be one at all. Severian was guided to that body and was having\nhis power of resurrection tested on a woman who was very important to both of them.\n\nThe baboon who checked on Severian could be just a bizarre delusion. But if it was\nFather Inire, again, Severian's power of resurrection was being investigated. Likewise\nwith Hethor's multiple attempts to kill Severian. Nothing mystical about his escapes\nfrom Hethor's creatures except that they keep happening. Is it a higher power \nintervening?\n\nThe Old Leech in the ziggurat tells Severian he is there to learn secret knowledge which\ncannot be obtained even by the eating of the dead. We are led to believe this\nexplains his experiments on the boy Mamas, but then left unexplained is why he is\ntending to near-death Severian. Again I think the learning the secret of resurrection is \nthe key to understanding the purpose of the character's appearance.\n\nThen there are the necromancers Ceryx and The Cumaean. They can raise the dead but not\nin the wholesome manner that Severian is able to accomplish. I think both deliberately\npositioned themselves in Severian's path to learn his secrets. That The Cumaean is female\nshould not be a troublesome fact in understanding beings who are fallen versions of \nTzadkiel.\n\nIsangoma and the jungle shaman don't seem to be involved in resurrection but if they are \nconsidered versions of Father Inire, some interesting conclusions can be drawn. Same for Fechin. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-02T22:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yo mention Fechin at the end of your post. Another character who is named\ntoo many times to be of so little apparent importance. Anyone have any\ngood theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\naaron: Never considered that Hethor and Father Inire might in some way be\nrelated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I appreciate that you put it that way. Just saying \"Hethor is Father\nInire\" is a\nshorthand but misleading way of saying it. Like Shadow Children and The\nNeighbors,\nI think we are dealing with plural beings, a difficult concept for we\nhumans to\ngrasp. But likely drawn from Biblical angel descriptions and the\nmulti-persona\nabilities of ancient mythological gods.\n\nThe best illustration we get of it in BotNS is with Tzadkiel and his\nmulti-size,\nmulti-species, multi-gender incarnations. We are shown that he can be at\nleast\ntwo characters at once when she pinches off one of her fingers which\nreforms to a\nhuman size and shape (and the fairy sized Tzadkiel we see soon after).\n\nI think we are given every reason to believe the same thing is happening\non Urth\nwith Abaia, undines etc. Tzadkiel is an angel analog and undines are\nspecifically\nidentified as demons/fallen angel analogs at the end of UotNS. I think\ncertain\n(roughly) human shaped and sized characters such as Typhon and Father\nInire also\nfall into the same category." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Wolfe's answer is accurate, then---Inire's appearances\nARE like the\ncat in the box: he's both there and not there. It's interesting that he\ndoesn't seem to do anything at these suspected appearances; for the most\npart, he's just \"there.\" (Or not.) They're nonessential clues. We can\ntake them or leave them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. Brings up the interesting point for me of what Father Inire is\nactually doing\nat each of his (ostensible) anonymous appearances. I think it is\nstructured like\nThe House Absolute/Secret House (and BotNS itself). There is an open and\nrather\nbanal purpose to each appearance and a hidden purpose which can be\nrevealed by\nknowing who and what Father Inire is.\n\nThe bent, little cowled servitor is merely an assistant who takes Severian\nto\nwhere he wishes to go, a festival called the \"thiasus\". This word most\nspecifically\nrefers to a festival devoted to the god Dionysus. I didn't catch the\nsignificance of\nthat until I had read RttW and was told by Wolfe about the significance of\nDionysus, Pan and the connection with The Outsider, to this universe.\n(could there\nbe a connection to Master Ash's otherwise unexplained longing for \"Vine\"?)\n\nThe bent, little old boatman is supposedly looking for the body of his\nlong dead\nwife, whom we don't learn is Dorcas until the end of CotA. This surprise\nis enough\nto divert us from remembering what a ridiculous coincidence it is for\nSeverian to\nfind that exact body for resurrection, not to mention that it happens to\nbe his\ngrandmother. If we recognize the bent, little guy as Father Inire, the\nconcidence\nis revealed not to be one at all. Severian was guided to that body and was\nhaving\nhis power of resurrection tested on a woman who was very important to both\nof them.\n\nThe baboon who checked on Severian could be just a bizarre delusion. But\nif it was\nFather Inire, again, Severian's power of resurrection was being\ninvestigated. Likewise\nwith Hethor's multiple attempts to kill Severian. Nothing mystical about\nhis escapes\nfrom Hethor's creatures except that they keep happening. Is it a higher\npower\nintervening?\n\nThe Old Leech in the ziggurat tells Severian he is there to learn secret\nknowledge which\ncannot be obtained even by the eating of the dead. We are led to believe\nthis\nexplains his experiments on the boy Mamas, but then left unexplained is\nwhy he is\ntending to near-death Severian. Again I think the learning the secret of\nresurrection is\nthe key to understanding the purpose of the character's appearance.\n\nThen there are the necromancers Ceryx and The Cumaean. They can raise the\ndead but not\nin the wholesome manner that Severian is able to accomplish. I think both\ndeliberately\npositioned themselves in Severian's path to learn his secrets. That The\nCumaean is female\nshould not be a troublesome fact in understanding beings who are fallen\nversions of\nTzadkiel.\n\nIsangoma and the jungle shaman don't seem to be involved in resurrection\nbut if they are\nconsidered versions of Father Inire, some interesting conclusions can be\ndrawn. Same for Fechin.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T12:01:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of \nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some \ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits, \nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like, \nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and \nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a painting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T13:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, Encyclopedia Brown! I loved those growing up. I think Rudesind is the\nmost blatant Inire-like character. It is from his mouth we first hear the\nname Fechin, if I'm not mistaken. It is also Rudesind who knows the true\ncontext of the Astronaut picture . Rudesind is next seen in the House\nAbsolute, seemingly unsurprised at Severian's presence there--as if he\nexpected Sev. It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House\nAbsolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances\nof his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\naaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a\npainting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T13:55:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And while we're on the Subject of Father Inire, how do you (and anyone else\non the list, as well) pronounce the name? I find myself reading it as\nIn-Ire, just like the two words. The audiobook reader says In-Eerie. That\nmakes no sense to me. Just curious about this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, aaron wrote:\nAh, Encyclopedia Brown! I loved those growing up. I think Rudesind is\nthe most blatant Inire-like character. It is from his mouth we first hear\nthe name Fechin, if I'm not mistaken. It is also Rudesind who knows the\ntrue context of the Astronaut picture . Rudesind is next seen in the House\nAbsolute, seemingly unsurprised at Severian's presence there--as if he\nexpected Sev. It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House\nAbsolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances\nof his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "aaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a\npainting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T15:28:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I pronounce it In-EAR-ay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:55 AM, aaron wrote:\nAnd while we're on the Subject of Father Inire, how do you (and anyone\nelse on the list, as well) pronounce the name? I find myself reading it as\nIn-Ire, just like the two words. The audiobook reader says In-Eerie. That\nmakes no sense to me. Just curious about this.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, Encyclopedia Brown! I loved those growing up. I think Rudesind is\nthe most blatant Inire-like character. It is from his mouth we first hear\nthe name Fechin, if I'm not mistaken. It is also Rudesind who knows the\ntrue context of the Astronaut picture . Rudesind is next seen in the House\nAbsolute, seemingly unsurprised at Severian's presence there--as if he\nexpected Sev. It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House\nAbsolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances\nof his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "aaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that\nFechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next\nto\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a\npainting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T17:14:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House\nAbsolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances\nof his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that art gallery seems to extend across a very long distance from Nessus\nto the House Absolute. I think the implication is that it is a passageway which\ndoes not fully exist in real space-time. Severian does compare Inire's passageways\nto the one on Tzadkiel's ship (the one to Brook Madregot).\n\nThe other somewhat funky Inire-Rudesind connection is that Rudesind is the one who\nbrings Severian the letter from Father Inire, soon after he is elevated to Autarch. Inire\nis acknowledged to have been in the Ascian jungles to the north, so how does the letter\nmanage to find Rudesind so quickly. And if haste was necessary why choose old Rudesind \nto deliver it? If Rudesind isn't really an old man and in fact is Father Inire himself,\nthose questions disappear.\n\nAlso is the unexpected and cryptic announcement at this meeting by Rudesind that he is \nthe \"advocate for the dead\". Where does that come from? Pretty mysterious but perhaps\nthe answer lies in this excerpt from Wikipedia on Dionysus: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His cult is also a \"cult of the souls\"; his maenads feed the dead through blood-offerings, \nand he acts as a divine communicant between the living and the dead.[13]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Dannehy-Oakes: I pronounce it In-EAR-ay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, me too. Borski identifies Inire as a Latin name, along with The Cumaean, Famulimus and\nBarbatus, which I agree does perhaps imply some sort of kinship among these beings. I think\nBorski identifies \"inire\" as a form of the verb meaning \"to enter\". Personally I don't\nthink he goes far enough with this, ignoring that a more specific meaning is \"sexual\nentrance\" and is associated with the god Inuus (known for beastiaity), who is an epithet of \nFaunus who is associated with Pan (Pas) and Quadrofrons/Janus who are all associated with \nDionysus. Add those to \"the Green Man\" and (the Town That Forgot) Fauna and a couple others \nand you have a nice collection of Dionysian references across the 12 book Sun Series.\n\n(FWIW, inuus is also a species of non-tailed, baboon-like monkeys called barbary apes) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A074D3B-09E1-4E15-8518-3B6FE4EA30C2@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2013-05-03T17:16:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it as \"Ih-NEAR-ay.\" Let's play with the idea that pronunciations have changed over the millenia!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 3, 2013, at 8:28 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nI pronounce it In-EAR-ay.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:55 AM, aaron wrote:\nAnd while we're on the Subject of Father Inire, how do you (and anyone else on the list, as well) pronounce the name? I find myself reading it as In-Ire, just like the two words. The audiobook reader says In-Eerie. That makes no sense to me. Just curious about this.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, aaron wrote:\nAh, Encyclopedia Brown! I loved those growing up. I think Rudesind is the most blatant Inire-like character. It is from his mouth we first hear the name Fechin, if I'm not mistaken. It is also Rudesind who knows the true context of the Astronaut picture . Rudesind is next seen in the House Absolute, seemingly unsurprised at Severian's presence there--as if he expected Sev. It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House Absolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances of his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a painting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T17:49:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<3A074D3B-09E1-4E15-8518-3B6FE4EA30C2@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Based on Lee Soong, I've mostly assumed unknown names are written as they are pronounced. I can't really use anything else than 'in ire'. I don't find the 'going in' Latin connection linguistically persuasive. \n\n\nNo dia 03/05/2013, ?s 18:16, Allan Anderson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read it as \"Ih-NEAR-ay.\" Let's play with the idea that pronunciations have changed over the millenia!\n\nOn May 3, 2013, at 8:28 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I pronounce it In-EAR-ay.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:55 AM, aaron wrote:\nAnd while we're on the Subject of Father Inire, how do you (and anyone else on the list, as well) pronounce the name? I find myself reading it as In-Ire, just like the two words. The audiobook reader says In-Eerie. That makes no sense to me. Just curious about this.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, aaron wrote:\nAh, Encyclopedia Brown! I loved those growing up. I think Rudesind is the most blatant Inire-like character. It is from his mouth we first hear the name Fechin, if I'm not mistaken. It is also Rudesind who knows the true context of the Astronaut picture . Rudesind is next seen in the House Absolute, seemingly unsurprised at Severian's presence there--as if he expected Sev. It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House Absolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other instances of his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them.\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "aaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a painting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T19:33:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 07:01, Lee Berman wrote:\naaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zrQ1ChEuE/USAfEKlT9YI/AAAAAAAAOzs/bzABfvMstzg/s1600/fechin+self+portrait1.jpg\nMy not-so-good theory is that Fechin is another incarnation of\nFather Inire. Like Borski, I think that Inire's absence is an\ninvitation for the reader to find him, wherever he might appear,\nthough I do think I have a better explanation for why Inire would appear\nso many times.\n\nThe tools we are given to conduct the search are the constellation\nof things we know about Inire: appearing small, bent, old, monkey-like,\nan association with art and museums, a lech for young human women, and\nperhaps a few others. Each appearance of Inire will demonstrate some\nof the characteristics, but none will display all of them. That's the\npuzzle I think we are presented.\n\nWith Fechin we have the characteristics of art, old, monkey-like and\nthe lech. Moreover we have Rudesind as a bridging character between\nFechin and Father Inire, speaking of both as though they were his master.\n\n(not to ignore that Rudesind himself is small, old, bent, monkey-like and\nassociated with art and museums. Rudesind describes a painting that Fechin\nmade of him when he was a boy. The painting has paintbrushes shown next to\nhim. It is an old mystery-solving trope, e.g. Encyclopedia Brown or\nHardy Boys, where the mystery is solved when it is recognized that a\npainting\nof someone with paintbrushes is a self-portrait)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can buy Rudesind being Fechin, or at least having taken Fechin's\nidentity. But I don't recall Fechin being old, and a handsome teenage boy\ngaining carnal knowledge of a teenage girl hardly sets him apart." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1b014c8fe785fdd00ad64393349a300f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T19:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 07:01, Lee Berman wrote:\naaron: Anyone have any good theories about Fechin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good theories? I don't know about that. But I think it is a\nreasonable guess to think that Wolfe based part of\nthe character on Russian artist Nicolai Fechin. It took some\ndigging but I think I have determined, from younger self-portraits,\nthat both Fechins have red hair.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nhttp://farm3.staticflickr.com/2142/5732351770_766b0948aa_z.jpg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no paint unless that's a palette in the subject's right hand, but is\nthere a black cat at the top left? And other figurines on the fireplace\nmantle?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-03T20:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In-EAR-ay, huh? Makes sense. The meaning of the name's source being\nentrance seems to jive with Inire's overall agenda, as well. He does\ncreate entrances with the specula using some arcane method or other. Good\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\naaron: It always seemed to me as if Rudesind implies that the House\nAbsolute and The Citadel are connected. There are probably other\ninstances\nof his Inire-y behavior, but I am too lazy at the moment to think of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, that art gallery seems to extend across a very long distance from\nNessus\nto the House Absolute. I think the implication is that it is a passageway\nwhich\ndoes not fully exist in real space-time. Severian does compare Inire's\npassageways\nto the one on Tzadkiel's ship (the one to Brook Madregot).\n\nThe other somewhat funky Inire-Rudesind connection is that Rudesind is the\none who\nbrings Severian the letter from Father Inire, soon after he is elevated to\nAutarch. Inire\nis acknowledged to have been in the Ascian jungles to the north, so how\ndoes the letter\nmanage to find Rudesind so quickly. And if haste was necessary why choose\nold Rudesind\nto deliver it? If Rudesind isn't really an old man and in fact is Father\nInire himself,\nthose questions disappear.\n\nAlso is the unexpected and cryptic announcement at this meeting by\nRudesind that he is\nthe \"advocate for the dead\". Where does that come from? Pretty mysterious\nbut perhaps\nthe answer lies in this excerpt from Wikipedia on Dionysus:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His cult is also a \"cult of the souls\"; his maenads feed the dead through\nblood-offerings,\nand he acts as a divine communicant between the living and the dead.[13]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Dannehy-Oakes: I pronounce it In-EAR-ay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, me too. Borski identifies Inire as a Latin name, along with The\nCumaean, Famulimus and\nBarbatus, which I agree does perhaps imply some sort of kinship among\nthese beings. I think\nBorski identifies \"inire\" as a form of the verb meaning \"to enter\".\nPersonally I don't\nthink he goes far enough with this, ignoring that a more specific meaning\nis \"sexual\nentrance\" and is associated with the god Inuus (known for beastiaity), who\nis an epithet of\nFaunus who is associated with Pan (Pas) and Quadrofrons/Janus who are all\nassociated with\nDionysus. Add those to \"the Green Man\" and (the Town That Forgot) Fauna\nand a couple others\nand you have a nice collection of Dionysian references across the 12 book\nSun Series.\n\n(FWIW, inuus is also a species of non-tailed, baboon-like monkeys called\nbarbary apes)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-04T03:30:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I can buy Rudesind being Fechin, or at least having \ntaken Fechin's identity. But I don't recall Fechin being old," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if he is really an immortal, shapeshifting alien then the \nhuman concept of \"age\" doesn't really apply. \n\nBut presented as a standard BotNS character, Fechin should be old\nas are his contemporaries, such as Rudesind, the old person in Casdoe's\nhouse, and (I think) the old boatman. We are never actually told that\nFechin died...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and a handsome teenage boy gaining carnal knowledge of a teenage girl \nhardly sets him apart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I question the handsomeness. It doesn't seem to go easily with\nlong, hairy, monkey-like arms. I suspect we are meant to understand the\nhandsomeness is in the eye of the beholder and storyteller here.\n\nBut I kinda go along with somebody's (Borski?) idea that the teen girl\nFechin seduces is Dorcas. That's probably an unnatural stretch but not \nso much for me if Fechin=the old boatman=Rudesind=Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no paint unless that's a palette in the subject's right hand, but is\nthere a black cat at the top left? And other figurines on the fireplace\nmantle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I picked that younger self-portrait by Nicolai Fechin because it shows\nhis hair to be a bit more red. This more famous, older self-portrait does\nshow him holding a paintbrush.\nhttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-shcjDerM3oE/USlESDOGOmI/AAAAAAAAPQM/V0-0es69axU/s1600/fechin+self+portrait2.jpg\n\nPerhaps the paintbrushes in the painting of Rudesind by Fechin were not\nmeant to signify a self-portrait and were just a bit of literary decoration.\nBut it is fun to consider they might represent a clever puzzle piece." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: In-EAR-ay, huh? Makes sense. The meaning of the name's source being\nentrance seems to jive with Inire's overall agenda, as well. He does\ncreate entrances with the specula using some arcane method or other. Good\nstuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yikes! Specula is the latin word for mirrors but were you implying word play \nwith the gynecological speculum? That's a tool which both functions to enter\nopen and as a mirror. What IS that naughty Father Inire really up to? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-04T05:36:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't claim that I was implying anything with the word specula,,, but who\nknows if Wolfe was?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: I can buy Rudesind being Fechin, or at least having\ntaken Fechin's identity. But I don't recall Fechin being old," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if he is really an immortal, shapeshifting alien then the\nhuman concept of \"age\" doesn't really apply.\n\nBut presented as a standard BotNS character, Fechin should be old\nas are his contemporaries, such as Rudesind, the old person in Casdoe's\nhouse, and (I think) the old boatman. We are never actually told that\nFechin died...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and a handsome teenage boy gaining carnal knowledge of a teenage girl\nhardly sets him apart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I question the handsomeness. It doesn't seem to go easily with\nlong, hairy, monkey-like arms. I suspect we are meant to understand the\nhandsomeness is in the eye of the beholder and storyteller here.\n\nBut I kinda go along with somebody's (Borski?) idea that the teen girl\nFechin seduces is Dorcas. That's probably an unnatural stretch but not\nso much for me if Fechin=the old boatman=Rudesind=Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see no paint unless that's a palette in the subject's right hand, but is\nthere a black cat at the top left? And other figurines on the fireplace\nmantle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I picked that younger self-portrait by Nicolai Fechin because it\nshows\nhis hair to be a bit more red. This more famous, older self-portrait does\nshow him holding a paintbrush.\n\nhttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-shcjDerM3oE/USlESDOGOmI/AAAAAAAAPQM/V0-0es69axU/s1600/fechin+self+portrait2.jpg\n\nPerhaps the paintbrushes in the painting of Rudesind by Fechin were not\nmeant to signify a self-portrait and were just a bit of literary\ndecoration.\nBut it is fun to consider they might represent a clever puzzle piece." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aaron: In-EAR-ay, huh? Makes sense. The meaning of the name's source\nbeing\nentrance seems to jive with Inire's overall agenda, as well. He does\ncreate entrances with the specula using some arcane method or other. Good\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yikes! Specula is the latin word for mirrors but were you implying word\nplay\nwith the gynecological speculum? That's a tool which both functions to\nenter\nopen and as a mirror. What IS that naughty Father Inire really up to?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<518504B7.5020003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-04T12:53:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who knows how much Inire has to do with the seraglio and the women held \nthere, but if he does, there's a parallel to Doctor Crane, who \npresumably would have used a vaginal speculum quite a bit. And this is \nprobably taking the wordplay too far, but I have to note this from the wiki:\n\nA vaginal speculum is also used in fertility treatments, particularly \nartificial insemination, and allows the vaginal cavity to be opened and \nobserved thereby facilitating the deposit of semen into the vagina.\n\nSo, hmm. We have no details on the methods of cloning (or half-cloning, \nas Thomas suggests?) used by the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/4/2013 1:36 AM, aaron wrote:\nI won't claim that I was implying anything with the word specula,,, \nbut who knows if Wolfe was?\n\n\nOn Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n >Jeff Wilson: I can buy Rudesind being Fechin, or at least having\n >taken Fechin's identity. But I don't recall Fechin being old,\n\n Well, if he is really an immortal, shapeshifting alien then the\n human concept of \"age\" doesn't really apply.\n\n But presented as a standard BotNS character, Fechin should be old\n as are his contemporaries, such as Rudesind, the old person in\n Casdoe's\n house, and (I think) the old boatman. We are never actually told that\n Fechin died....\n\n >and a handsome teenage boy gaining carnal knowledge of a teenage girl\n >hardly sets him apart.\n\n Actually, I question the handsomeness. It doesn't seem to go\n easily with\n long, hairy, monkey-like arms. I suspect we are meant to\n understand the\n handsomeness is in the eye of the beholder and storyteller here.\n\n But I kinda go along with somebody's (Borski?) idea that the teen girl\n Fechin seduces is Dorcas. That's probably an unnatural stretch but not\n so much for me if Fechin=the old boatman=Rudesind=Inire.\n\n >I see no paint unless that's a palette in the subject's right\n hand, but is\n >there a black cat at the top left? And other figurines on the\n fireplace\n >mantle?\n\n Well, I picked that younger self-portrait by Nicolai Fechin\n because it shows\n his hair to be a bit more red. This more famous, older\n self-portrait does\n show him holding a paintbrush.\n http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-shcjDerM3oE/USlESDOGOmI/AAAAAAAAPQM/V0-0es69axU/s1600/fechin+self+portrait2.jpg\n\n Perhaps the paintbrushes in the painting of Rudesind by Fechin\n were not\n meant to signify a self-portrait and were just a bit of literary\n decoration.\n But it is fun to consider they might represent a clever puzzle piece.\n\n >aaron: In-EAR-ay, huh? Makes sense. The meaning of the name's\n source being\n >entrance seems to jive with Inire's overall agenda, as well. He does\n >create entrances with the specula using some arcane method or\n other. Good\n >stuff.\n\n Yikes! Specula is the latin word for mirrors but were you implying\n word play\n with the gynecological speculum? That's a tool which both\n functions to enter\n open and as a mirror. What IS that naughty Father Inire really up to?\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T12:25:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<518504B7.5020003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Who knows how much Inire has to do with the seraglio and \nthe women held there, but if he does, there's a parallel to Doctor Crane, who \npresumably would have used a vaginal speculum quite a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. Anyone know of other gynecological references in Wolfe's work?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, hmm. We have no details on the methods of cloning (or half-cloning, \nas Thomas suggests?) used by the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this similar to 5HoC. All we have is a closed door lab and some\ncircumstantial evidence of the results. Naturally Number Five doesn't \nremember the details of his own birth (or whatever). I think this aspect of\nhis narrator unreliability is the primary reason Wolfe chose to use him\nas first person narrator instead of Maitre. He might have told us how human \ncloning is done. Number Five can't (yet). \n\nI think this is in parallel to our own normal birthing experience Which is pretty \nmessy and not something we think about much when we think of ourselves. And if we \nread stories from older time periods (or even our own), we are not likely to get \ngraphic descriptions of how birth happens. We are more likely to get passing references \nwhich assume the reader will fill in the missing details with their own level of knowledge.\nThus do clones feel about their own genesis. \n\nI think cloning in BotNS is like Typhon's science chamber with its mysterious machines, \nBaldander's lab, with its gruesome results, the Witches tower with its hairless, crippled \ncreatures and wherever Inire produces his dog men and cat women. Blood sharing also. We\ndon't know how khaibits and their mistresses do it and Severian is maddeningly vague in\ntelling us about the old Leech linking his bloodstream to Mamas'. Not giving us the\nscientific/clinical details helps add to the sense of horror Wolfe always seems to want \nto maintain at a certain level. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<61ED0AB5-0512-44CA-86CE-3A47F063FFA1@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T13:24:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The unhatched chick between Jolenta's legs. Anyway, we know something of number five's first cloning efforts. He takes unfertilized frog sex cells and doubles the chromosomes, producing a viable 2n cell to then differentiate and split naturally. Could be a similar technique for Maitre, or perhaps more advanced parthenogenesis\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 6, 2013, at 5:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Who knows how much Inire has to do with the seraglio and \nthe women held there, but if he does, there's a parallel to Doctor Crane, who \npresumably would have used a vaginal speculum quite a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. Anyone know of other gynecological references in Wolfe's work?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, hmm. We have no details on the methods of cloning (or half-cloning, \nas Thomas suggests?) used by the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this similar to 5HoC. All we have is a closed door lab and some\ncircumstantial evidence of the results. Naturally Number Five doesn't \nremember the details of his own birth (or whatever). I think this aspect of\nhis narrator unreliability is the primary reason Wolfe chose to use him\nas first person narrator instead of Maitre. He might have told us how human \ncloning is done. Number Five can't (yet). \n\nI think this is in parallel to our own normal birthing experience Which is pretty \nmessy and not something we think about much when we think of ourselves. And if we \nread stories from older time periods (or even our own), we are not likely to get \ngraphic descriptions of how birth happens. We are more likely to get passing references \nwhich assume the reader will fill in the missing details with their own level of knowledge.\nThus do clones feel about their own genesis. \n\nI think cloning in BotNS is like Typhon's science chamber with its mysterious machines, \nBaldander's lab, with its gruesome results, the Witches tower with its hairless, crippled \ncreatures and wherever Inire produces his dog men and cat women. Blood sharing also. We\ndon't know how khaibits and their mistresses do it and Severian is maddeningly vague in\ntelling us about the old Leech linking his bloodstream to Mamas'. Not giving us the\nscientific/clinical details helps add to the sense of horror Wolfe always seems to want \nto maintain at a certain level. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5187B3D0.7090804@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-05-06T13:44:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<61ED0AB5-0512-44CA-86CE-3A47F063FFA1@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was \nknown when the books we discuss were written?\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe unhatched chick between Jolenta's legs. Anyway, we know something of number five's first cloning efforts. He takes unfertilized frog sex cells and doubles the chromosomes, producing a viable 2n cell to then differentiate and split naturally. Could be a similar technique for Maitre, or perhaps more advanced parthenogenesis\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 6, 2013, at 5:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: Who knows how much Inire has to do with the seraglio and \nthe women held there, but if he does, there's a parallel to Doctor Crane, who \npresumably would have used a vaginal speculum quite a bit.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True. Anyone know of other gynecological references in Wolfe's work?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, hmm. We have no details on the methods of cloning (or half-cloning, \nas Thomas suggests?) used by the Commonwealth.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find this similar to 5HoC. All we have is a closed door lab and some\ncircumstantial evidence of the results. Naturally Number Five doesn't \nremember the details of his own birth (or whatever). I think this aspect of\nhis narrator unreliability is the primary reason Wolfe chose to use him\nas first person narrator instead of Maitre. He might have told us how human \ncloning is done. Number Five can't (yet). \n\nI think this is in parallel to our own normal birthing experience Which is pretty \nmessy and not something we think about much when we think of ourselves. And if we \nread stories from older time periods (or even our own), we are not likely to get \ngraphic descriptions of how birth happens. We are more likely to get passing references \nwhich assume the reader will fill in the missing details with their own level of knowledge.\nThus do clones feel about their own genesis. \n\nI think cloning in BotNS is like Typhon's science chamber with its mysterious machines, \nBaldander's lab, with its gruesome results, the Witches tower with its hairless, crippled \ncreatures and wherever Inire produces his dog men and cat women. Blood sharing also. We\ndon't know how khaibits and their mistresses do it and Severian is maddeningly vague in\ntelling us about the old Leech linking his bloodstream to Mamas'. Not giving us the\nscientific/clinical details helps add to the sense of horror Wolfe always seems to want \nto maintain at a certain level. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T14:14:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5187B3D0.7090804@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was known \nwhen the books we discuss were written?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That it would most likely progress quickly?\n\nWhat I mean is that a SF author in the '80s could safely postulate easy and \nadvanced cloning, since there are no obvious impassable physical or \nbiological barriers to it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5187BC44.8030400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-06T14:20:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Learning to do it on an industrial scale is a different matter, \nbut in the 1980s cloning was always seen as inevitable, just like tiny \ndigital computers with massive storage were. We just didn't know who \nwould accomplish it or how." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/6/2013 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was \nknown when the books we discuss were written?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That it would most likely progress quickly?\n\nWhat I mean is that a SF author in the '80s could safely postulate \neasy and advanced cloning, since there are no obvious impassable \nphysical or biological barriers to it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T15:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5187BC44.8030400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Anyway, we know something of number five's first cloning efforts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, I remember the frog experiments. But that's a far cry from producing a human \nclone, especially considering the mysteries of birth. How did Number Five feel\nabout the process, when he finally mastered it? Probably somewhat divorced from it\neven though it produced him. Rather as we tend to divorce ourselves from thinking \nabout sex and even birth as related to the way each of us entered the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The unhatched chick between Jolenta's legs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, yep. I remember one of the early (and very few) female contributors to this\nlist cited that line as an example of how Wolfe can be clumsy in dealing with \nsexual issues. At the time I tended to agree.\n\nNow, I instead think it is another example of Wolfe's cleverness with words and \nhis ability to wring multiple meanings from them. The line might serve to illustrate\nSeverian's sexual clumsiness. But I think it also serves as a textual clue, especially\nsince it was a common trope back in those days (remember M*A*S*H) that to determine a\nwoman's true hair color, you had to check her pubic hair.\n\nAs the waitress, Jolenta's hair is pointedly introduced without color as \"straggling\".\nLater, her hair is hammered home to us as \"red-gold\". So which was her original color?\nGiven a chick's color I think we can conclude gold, while the red has been added. \n(significant of course that the addition was done by vulpine Dr. Talos).\n\nBorski finds great significance in gold hair color to Severian's family tree and in \nthis case I tend to agree.\n\nA similar mystery can be found with Typhon, I think. We know one of his heads is\nblond haired and the other dark haired, but we are not told which is Typhon's and\nwhich is Piaton's. We are able to deduce later that Typhon is blonde and this \napparently insignificant fact becomes important in establishing identity in \nLong Sun and Silk's paternity plus the identify of the big blond guy steering the\nship at the end of RttW. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002C849B-8B4D-4C61-A96F-A2BC69D15143@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T15:17:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5187BC44.8030400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The book does say that number five doubts his father is capable of the feat of human cloning at one point. Of course, he is. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 6, 2013, at 7:20 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI agree. Learning to do it on an industrial scale is a different matter, but in the 1980s cloning was always seen as inevitable, just like tiny digital computers with massive storage were. We just didn't know who would accomplish it or how.\n\nOn 5/6/2013 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was known when the books we discuss were written?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That it would most likely progress quickly?\n\nWhat I mean is that a SF author in the '80s could safely postulate easy and advanced cloning, since there are no obvious impassable physical or biological barriers to it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5187D56F.6010809@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-05-06T16:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant that GW could not know some technical details and difficulties \nof cloning that we know now. These details\nwere discussed in some posts. Of course he could assume that cloning \nwill be easy and advanced,\nbut I don't think he would have in mind such details.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was \nknown when the books we discuss were written?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That it would most likely progress quickly?\n\nWhat I mean is that a SF author in the '80s could safely postulate \neasy and advanced cloning, since there are no obvious impassable \nphysical or biological barriers to it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5187D717.1060906@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T16:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<61ED0AB5-0512-44CA-86CE-3A47F063FFA1@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/6/2013 8:24 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe unhatched chick between Jolenta's legs. Anyway, we know something of number five's first cloning efforts. He takes unfertilized frog sex cells..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ewwww. The line is, \"I freed her breasts, each nearly as large as her \nown head, and those wide thighs, which seemed to hold a new-hatched \nchick between them.\"\n\nChicks can be numerous colors:\n\nhttp://n3.cc/var/albums/domestic-animals/2_IMGP5516.jpg?m=1338592809\n\nbut Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D0D7CBE3A3A4D0E94E1A4FBC659DED9@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-05-06T16:16:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5187BC44.8030400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Learning to do it on an industrial scale is a different matter, \nbut in the 1980s cloning was always seen as inevitable, just like tiny \ndigital computers with massive storage were. We just didn't know who would \naccomplish it or how." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course Wolfe was cautious with regard to digital computers in 5HOC. Mr. \nMillion requires a train of large cabinets to support a core capacity that \nis less than that of a cheap Android tablet. (His programming is obviously \nmore advanced, though.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/6/2013 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And don't forget that cloning is progressing very quickly. What was known \nwhen the books we discuss were written?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That it would most likely progress quickly? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2013-05-06T23:21:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 6 May 2013, Lee Berman wrote:\n...the Witches tower with its hairless, crippled creatures" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought they were using a microscope." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51883BAC.2060608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-06T23:24:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me, too. But they plainly are engaged in research into something \nbiological, and they're not the Bear Tower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/6/2013 7:21 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 6 May 2013, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...the Witches tower with its hairless, crippled creatures" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always thought they were using a microscope.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-07T02:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<51883BAC.2060608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Chicks can be numerous colors:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well sure, but a google search for \"baby chicks\" \nproduces images of golden chicks in large majority.\nhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw\u001006&bihh1&q=chicks&oq=chicks&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1699.3578.0.3611.6.6.0.0.0.0.987.3668.0j1j5-1j3.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.img.wN8u0Rxxc1I#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&qºby+chicks&oqºby+chicks&gs_l=img.12...0.0.2.4896.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..12.img.EkEO2fUZsRc&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&fpŸ795c746bf69be2&biw\u001006&bihh1\n\nMoreover we are dealing with a metaphor here, not\nthe real world. Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair \nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember this mention. Any chance you have the exact\nlocation of it? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<40082EE2-402E-4437-8FE4-3C9102048CFF@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2013-05-07T02:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 6, 2013, at 7:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair \nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It evokes more of a texture than a color to me. Not that I wanted my kiddie memories at the feed store associated with sensual moments between a woman's legs. Thanks, guys." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51886BF8.2000602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-07T02:50:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Female chicks are typically yellowy-white; males more brown. (If we're \ntalking about chickens.) But who knows what color Wolfe thought it would \nmean to his readers. Presumably not white." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/6/2013 10:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Chicks can be numerous colors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well sure, but a google search for \"baby chicks\"\nproduces images of golden chicks in large majority.\nhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw\u001006&bihh1&q=chicks&oq=chicks&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1699.3578.0.3611.6.6.0.0.0.0.987.3668.0j1j5-1j3.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.img.wN8u0Rxxc1I#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&qºby+chicks&oqºby+chicks&gs_l=img.12...0.0.2.4896.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..12.img.EkEO2fUZsRc&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&fpŸ795c746bf69be2&biw\u001006&bihh1\n\nMoreover we are dealing with a metaphor here, not\nthe real world. Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair\nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember this mention. Any chance you have the exact\nlocation of it? \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5188D763.7050506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-07T10:28:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<51886BF8.2000602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3283/2931392960_882130a963.jpg\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (07-05-2013 03:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Female chicks are typically yellowy-white; males more brown. (If we're\ntalking about chickens.) But who knows what color Wolfe thought it would\nmean to his readers. Presumably not white.\n\nOn 5/6/2013 10:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Chicks can be numerous colors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well sure, but a google search for \"baby chicks\"\nproduces images of golden chicks in large majority.\nhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw\u001006&bihh1&q=chicks&oq=chicks&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1699.3578.0.3611.6.6.0.0.0.0.987.3668.0j1j5-1j3.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.img.wN8u0Rxxc1I#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&qºby+chicks&oqºby+chicks&gs_l=img.12...0.0.2.4896.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..12.img.EkEO2fUZsRc&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&fpŸ795c746bf69be2&biw\u001006&bihh1\n\n\nMoreover we are dealing with a metaphor here, not\nthe real world. Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair\nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember this mention. Any chance you have the exact\nlocation of it?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5188D8E9.8080605@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-05-07T10:35:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5188D763.7050506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Newly hutched chicks also usually are humid -\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nhttp://farm4.staticflickr.com/3283/2931392960_882130a963.jpg\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (07-05-2013 03:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Female chicks are typically yellowy-white; males more brown. (If we're\ntalking about chickens.) But who knows what color Wolfe thought it would\nmean to his readers. Presumably not white.\n\nOn 5/6/2013 10:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Chicks can be numerous colors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well sure, but a google search for \"baby chicks\"\nproduces images of golden chicks in large majority.\nhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw\u001006&bihh1&q=chicks&oq=chicks&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1699.3578.0.3611.6.6.0.0.0.0.987.3668.0j1j5-1j3.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.img.wN8u0Rxxc1I#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&qºby+chicks&oqºby+chicks&gs_l=img.12...0.0.2.4896.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..12.img.EkEO2fUZsRc&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&fpŸ795c746bf69be2&biw\u001006&bihh1 \n\n\n\nMoreover we are dealing with a metaphor here, not\nthe real world. Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair\nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "but Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't remember this mention. Any chance you have the exact\nlocation of it?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5188FA00.9010805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-07T12:56:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<5188D763.7050506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hah!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/7/2013 6:28 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nhttp://farm4.staticflickr.com/3283/2931392960_882130a963.jpg\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (07-05-2013 03:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Female chicks are typically yellowy-white; males more brown. (If we're\ntalking about chickens.) But who knows what color Wolfe thought it would\nmean to his readers. Presumably not white.\n\nOn 5/6/2013 10:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Chicks can be numerous colors:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well sure, but a google search for \"baby chicks\"\nproduces images of golden chicks in large majority.\nhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw\u001006&bihh1&q=chicks&oq=chicks&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1699.3578.0.3611.6.6.0.0.0.0.987.3668.0j1j5-1j3.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.img.wN8u0Rxxc1I#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&qºby+chicks&oqºby+chicks&gs_l=img.12...0.0.2.4896.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..12.img.EkEO2fUZsRc&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.dmQ&fpŸ795c746bf69be2&biw\u001006&bihh1 \n\n\n\nMoreover we are dealing with a metaphor here, not\nthe real world. Perhaps we can agree Wolfe was not\nusing the chick metaphor to suggest Jolenta's pubic hair\nwas in numerous colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "but Sev mentions her red-gold hair looked brown justbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't remember this mention. Any chance you have the exact\nlocation of it?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a88a561f65c5ebf25791620a9067057.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-07T20:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<51883BAC.2060608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 6, 2013 18:24, David Stockhoff wrote:\nMe, too. But they plainly are engaged in research into something\nbiological, and they're not the Bear Tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly, or the hairless, crippled animals could be the way people appear\nwith some kind of security scanner they are using, similar to the way they\nlook with our recent backscatter devices, early IR, or even fluouroscope. \nWolfe would certainly be familiar with these sorts of devices and their\nimages from their use in industry for troubleshooting, quality control,\nprocess improvement, etc." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1367960181.23172.YahooMailNeo@web84506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-07T20:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<9a88a561f65c5ebf25791620a9067057.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean some kind of farseeing or scrying? That's possible. \"Hairless and crippled\" is not much to go on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 4:38 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Agilus and Agia\n\n\n\nOn Mon, May 6, 2013 18:24, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me, too. But they plainly are engaged in research into something\nbiological, and they're not the Bear Tower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly, or the hairless, crippled animals could be the way people appear\nwith some kind of security scanner they are using, similar to the way they\nlook with our recent backscatter devices, early IR, or even fluouroscope. \nWolfe would certainly be familiar with these sorts of devices and their\nimages from their use in industry for troubleshooting, quality control,\nprocess improvement, etc.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<32aa52632cf071233050d9fa73932d3c.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-07T21:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1367960181.23172.YahooMailNeo@web84506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 7, 2013 15:56, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nYou mean some kind of farseeing or scrying? That's possible. \"Hairless and\ncrippled\" is not much to go on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean any kind of technology that lets them see hidden things. Or it\ncould be both, ultrasound and X-rays have medical uses as well as\nindustrial and spying applications. The Witches could be the clone\nkeepers, with the homunculus in the ancient Autarchial suite a souvenir of\ntheir success in replicating the technique after Typhon's followers\nfled/stopped returning." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T12:17:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<32aa52632cf071233050d9fa73932d3c.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: Newly hutched chicks also usually are humid -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson: It evokes more of a texture than a color to me\nNot that I wanted my kiddie memories at the feed store . associated \nwith sensual moments between a woman's legs. Thanks, guys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, yep, I had considered the moistness and textural components to \nthe metaphor also. But, as mentioned, focusing on it as a reference to\nhair color and possible identity clue also serves to absolve Wolfe from \nthe accusation of using purple (and rather awkward) sexual prose. I'd\nrather think the best of him, if the opportunity is afforded :-). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<518ACBC0.3060202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-08T22:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agilus and Agia", "in_reply_to": "<32aa52632cf071233050d9fa73932d3c.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/8/2013 1:09 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, May 7, 2013 21:12, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or maybe the face has lived on to be fit to a new owner. Sev's twin\nsister\nwas taken in by the witches and who took a bit at a time and the woman\ncalled Merryn who looks like an old woman with a young girl's face is\nexactly that. It totally would fit for the alien Cumaean to be working\nthrough a coven of rhinoplastic ghouls the way FB&O work through a\nvivisectionist and Inire through a succession of brain-eating bawds and\nlechers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That it would. But simply stealing a young face seems too horrible even\nin that context, and it would leave the hypothetical sister dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They don't have much of a standard to live up to:\nThe torturers seem to expend more than a few apprentices, and Sev recalls\nthe grinding poverty he was subjected to, yet there is somehow money for\ntrips to Echopraxia and to support Brother Porter who is able bodied but\napparently does nothing other than sit by the tower door. We know that the\nolder apprentices are allowed to bully the younger. Who knows what happens\nto the boys who aren't bright or strong or quick enough?\n\nWell, we do know. Little bones, anywhere one digs in the yard...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. Not quite the same as systematic murder, but I don't want to \nbe guilty of underestimating Wolfe's capacity for depicting evil. He \ndoes bring up those bones fairly quickly, even if part of the point is \nthe depth of time, not just the brothers' callousness.\n\nAs you suggest, inevitably this brings us to the Vodalarii. As far as we \nknow---having nothing to go on but Severian's feast and suggestions that \nthey do a lot of exhuming---they don't murder their victims. However, \nthe talk of some of the participants leaves room for doubt. I think \nthere must be consistency in the Citadel: if the witches murder for \nbeauty and the Bear Tower people rape animals and the Torturers do \npretty much everything if without much relish, then the Vodalarii must \nmurder for their rituals. There can be no bottom. These people do all \nthe worst things Wolfe could think of.\n\nAt points like this I feel one of the big threads of inspiration for BNS \nmust have been a contemplation of how Cthulhu's worshipers would act if \nthey were real. That is, if Cthulhu himself is merely ravenous and \namoral, it is his followers who are truly and deliberately evil---that's \ntheir response in the face of the amoral hunger of the void. (Then you \nhave the very Catholic question of whether there is real evil in the \nworld at all, i.e., Satan.) How low can humans sink in a fallen \nuniverse, and can it be depicted in a novel that subordinates this \ndepiction to a moral scheme rather than glorifying it?\n\nSometimes Urth doesn't seem too bad---the Autarch seems kind, and \nVodalus honorable enough. Even Typhon appears almost a straight shooter. \nSeverian seems unaware of the depths of evil around him, and it's hard \nfor us to see it too, with all the decadent ornamentation.\n\nSo to turn it around, if the Vodalarii kill, then the witches can't \nsimply be volunteering their precious fluids in exchange for later \nbeauty. They must cannibalize their own for it. That's how Merryn can be \nSeverian's sister without being named Severa." } ] } ] }