{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6380", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6380, "subject": "The Cumaean", "messages": 26, "voices": 10, "first": "2013-05-08T13:15:00+00:00", "last": "2013-06-17T12:07:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T13:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 7, 2013 15:56, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: You mean some kind of farseeing \nor scrying? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That's possible. \"Hairless and crippled\" is not much to go on. I mean any \nkind of technology that lets them see hidden things. Or it could be both, ultrasound \nand X-rays have medical uses as well as industrial and spying applications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This discussion got me thinking. I think if we are to solve this mystery, the answer\nmight come from a better understanding of The Cumaean. We first learn she is the Seeress\nwho lives in a cave, which surely invokes the Cumaean Sybil of roman myth. That her cave\nimpossibly stretches to the other side of Urth might be a suggestion of Ouroboros, the \nworld-spanning snake whose mouth resembles a cave.\n\nLater we learn of her snake-like nature. This could be suggesting the Cumaean Sybil's\npredecessor, the Pythian Oracle. But given that we have a character nameed \"Typhon\", \na snake-woman living in a cave is highly suggestive of mythological Typhon's wife,\nEchidna. \n\nMythological Echidna was, interestingly, a \"guardian of the vineyard\". But mostly she\nwas the \"mother of all monsters\" and prone to eating people whole. I think this jibes\nwith Long Sun's Echidna enjoying human sacrifice and Short Sun's Mother drowning and\neating sailors. In addition to the snake association, mythological Echidna is sometimes\ncalled the \"Tartarean lamprey\" thus adding a fishy aspect to her nature.\n\nWhen Severian sees the Cumaean's true snakey nature, he also sees multiple, enraptured\nhuman faces appearing on her back. This could symbolize the Cumaean Sibyl's cave which\nhad a hundred mouths, all whispering prophesy. But given that the Cumaean invokes a\nbeing from the star Fomalhaut, I think she must be associated with the theme of the\nFish's Mouth that we see over and over in BotNS. \n\nThe Jurupari, the man-ape cave, the Ouroboros story, the Alzabo and Casdoe's family are\nall references to or depictions of people being eaten then continuing to have consciouness \nand some sort of life within the belly of the beast. perhaps this is what is going on with\nthe faces we see on The Cumaean's back.\n\nSo perhaps the hairless, crippled animals in an artificial landscape that Severian sees\nis somehow a depiction of what is going on inside The Cumaean. Half-digested people living\ntheir lives within a mentally constructed environment.\n\nIgnoring earthly and Biblical analogy for now, perhaps the Fish's Mouth theme and the\nsnakey-fish \"Abaia\" is a metaphor for the great beast(s) which have swallowed Urth whole \nand which now lives on within the dark belly of the beast. Perhaps Jonas (Jonah?) was named\nfor one who escaped that belly.\n\nMoreover, I had previously wondered how Severian bringing a flood could vanquish ocean-\ndwelling giant creatures. But if those creatures are understood in terms of dark-loving, \ncave-dwelling, murky depth creatures such as eels, lampreys and jurupari, I can see how\nrestoring the sun might do it. There is much description of golden light flooding the \nocean as Severian swims through it after the New Sun has arrived. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T13:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While having all this \"belly of the beast\" stuff in mind, it reminded me of another\nidea. Did anyone ever get the impression that perhaps the whole Ship might be Tzadkiel?\n\nWhen Severian first sees the angelic being in the mirror book, he recognizes it as being\nas big as an island. And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature to the interior\nof the ship.\n\nWas the choice of light sails as propulsion for the ship to invoke the idea of angel\nwings? I guess Cherubim have four sets of wings and Seraphim have six sets. I think we \ndon't know how many Archangels have. I forget the architecture of Tzadkiel's ship. Do\nwe know how many sets of sails there are? Is the whole ship supposed to be seven-sided?\nI think there are seven Archangels.\n\nJust throwing some ideas out there. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1368022259.75440.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-08T14:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 9:15 AM\nSubject: (urth) The Cumaean\n\n\nIgnoring earthly and Biblical analogy for now, perhaps the Fish's Mouth theme and the\nsnakey-fish \"Abaia\" is a metaphor for the great beast(s) which have swallowed Urth whole \nand which now lives on within the dark belly of the beast. Perhaps Jonas (Jonah?) was named\nfor one who escaped that belly.\n\nMoreover, I had previously wondered how Severian bringing a flood could vanquish ocean-\ndwelling giant creatures. But if those creatures are understood in terms of dark-loving, \ncave-dwelling, murky depth creatures such as eels, lampreys and jurupari, I can see how\nrestoring the sun might do it. There is much description of golden light flooding the \nocean as Severian swims through it after the New Sun has arrived. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n_______________________________________________\n\n\nHow did we miss this? Not only is the New Sun already well established as a big deal, the Old Sun must leave the ocean depths even darker than usual, and so the New Sun would bring more light there as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0ac59ae41f73de47a7b77bb43f54b2db.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 08:45, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnd there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior\nof the ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there are seven Archangels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Usually four." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:17:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<0ac59ae41f73de47a7b77bb43f54b2db.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Usually 7.\n\nGabriel ,\nMichael\n,Raphael ,\nUriel\n, Raguel ,\nRemiel\n and Saraqael ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 08:45, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior\nof the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there are seven Archangels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Usually four.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:29:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "G, M, and R are scriptural, and Uriel/Ariel is the extrascriptural name\nusually given to the scriptural Destroryer.\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 15:17, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUsually 7.\n\nGabriel ,\nMichael\n,Raphael ,\nUriel\n, Raguel ,\nRemiel\n and Saraqael .\n\n\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 08:45, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior\nof the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there are seven Archangels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Usually four.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:32:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but (like me) Wolfe is a Catholic and not bound by \"it ain't in\nScripture.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nG, M, and R are scriptural, and Uriel/Ariel is the extrascriptural name\nusually given to the scriptural Destroryer.\n.\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 15:17, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Usually 7.\n\nGabriel ,\nMichael\n,Raphael ,\nUriel\n, Raguel ,\nRemiel\n and Saraqael .\n\n\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 08:45, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior\nof the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think there are seven Archangels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Usually four.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1368045414.76410.YahooMailClassic@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:36:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Am I confusing the ship with the Hyperion Cantos, or is there a sense of the Yggdrasil world tree as a ship? does that story at all come into reference in Urth of the New Sun? Been a while since I looked over the ship part. When Lif and Lifthrasi come to Ragnarok, only they will survive by hiding inside the branches of Yggdrasil.\n\nThe bellowing fire will not scorch them;\nit will not even touch them,\nand their food will be the morning dew.\nThrough the branches they will see a new sun burn\nas the world ends and starts again\n\n--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Cumaean\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 1:29 PM\n\n\n\nG, M, and R are scriptural, and Uriel/Ariel is the extrascriptural name\nusually given to the scriptural Destroryer.\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 15:17, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUsually 7.\n\nGabriel ,\nMichael\n,Raphael ,\nUriel\n, Raguel ,\nRemiel\n? and Saraqael .\n\n\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 08:45, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior\nof the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there are seven Archangels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Usually four.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a4aff08ef4a5eaffc00cafcb1e67db5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T20:41:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<1368022259.75440.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 09:10, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 9:15 AM\nSubject: (urth) The Cumaean\n\n\nIgnoring earthly and Biblical analogy for now, perhaps the Fish's Mouth\ntheme and the\nsnakey-fish \"Abaia\" is a metaphor for the great beast(s) which have\nswallowed Urth whole\nand which now lives on within the dark belly of the beast. Perhaps Jonas\n(Jonah?) was named\nfor one who escaped that belly.\n\nMoreover, I had previously wondered how Severian bringing a flood could\nvanquish ocean-\ndwelling giant creatures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aside from the New Sun's light illuminating the depths, floods are never\npermanent, and whenever people survive to view the aftermath of the\ndeluge, they see all sorts of unknown creatures beached inland, left\nbehind by the receding waters. When continents founder even Leviathan may\nbe left high and dry." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6420dee92fa5888bf008ac6229e976f7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-08T23:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 15:32, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nYes, but (like me) Wolfe is a Catholic and not bound by \"it ain't in\nScripture.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But are the others capital-A Archangels of that most exalted rank, or\narchangels as in higher than the average angel? Do the additional names of\nthe archangels come with better provenance than Caspar and Melchior?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-09T00:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<6420dee92fa5888bf008ac6229e976f7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are of the higher rank. There are traditionally nine ranks of angels;\naccording to Thomas Aquinas, these would be:\n\nSeraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones (the First Choir)\nDominions, Virtues and Powers (the Second Choir)\nPrincipalities, Archangels, and Angels (the Third Choir)\n\nSeraphim are the highest, Angels the lowest.\n\nThe bit about seven doesn't mean that there are only seven total; it means\nthat there are seven significant ones, perhaps the seven who stand in the\npresence of God in Revelation.\n\nOddly, the 7th Day Adventists believe that Michael is Jesus in disguise or\nsomething like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 15:32, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but (like me) Wolfe is a Catholic and not bound by \"it ain't in\nScripture.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But are the others capital-A Archangels of that most exalted rank, or\narchangels as in higher than the average angel? Do the additional names of\nthe archangels come with better provenance than Caspar and Melchior?\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1368069681.5250.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-05-09T03:21:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<1a4aff08ef4a5eaffc00cafcb1e67db5.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 09:10, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Moreover, I had previously wondered how Severian bringing a flood could\nvanquish ocean-dwelling giant creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from the New Sun's light illuminating the depths, floods are never\npermanent, and whenever people survive to view the aftermath of the\ndeluge, they see all sorts of unknown creatures beached inland, left\nbehind by the receding waters. When continents founder even Leviathan may\nbe left high and dry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the flood brought by the New Sun was caused by the melting of ice caps, which would make it permanent till the climate cooled again. Am I remembering wrong?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-09T04:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<1368069681.5250.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 8, 2013 22:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI thought the flood brought by the New Sun was caused by the melting of\nice caps, which would make it permanent till the climate cooled again. Am\nI remembering wrong?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The passing of the white fountain causes unprecented tides, earthquakes,\nand tsunamis, drowning Nessus and the House Absolute before the expanded\nicecaps have time to melt back into the sea.\n\nThe renewed Sun doubtless melts them, raising sea levels, but everything\nnear the coasts would already be wrecked and then some." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1368109625.66471.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-05-09T14:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 22:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought the flood brought by the New Sun was caused by the melting of\nice caps, which would make it permanent till the climate cooled again. Am\nI remembering wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The passing of the white fountain causes unprecented tides, earthquakes,\nand tsunamis, drowning Nessus and the House Absolute before the expanded\nicecaps have time to melt back into the sea.\n\nThe renewed Sun doubtless melts them, raising sea levels, but everything\nnear the coasts would already be wrecked and then some." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, it's been a while.\n\nNot to throw cold water (sorry) on a promising speculation, but apparently \nin clear areas of the ocean, 90% of sunlight is absorbed in the first 33 m, whereas in biologically productive areas, that depth is in the \nsingle digits.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=pride+ourselves+in%2Fpride+ourselves+on&year_start\u001800&year_end 00&corpus\u0018&smoothing=3&share\nSo even if the New Sun was ten times brighter than Old Sun (Leigh Brackett moment there), the sea monsters wouldn't have had to move much deeper. Of course if they were caught by surprise, stunned by those tides and \nearthquakes, and the like...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<518BCBE6.5060001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-09T16:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<1368109625.66471.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (09-05-2013 15:27):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn Wed, May 8, 2013 22:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought the flood brought by the New Sun was caused by the melting of\nice caps, which would make it permanent till the climate cooled again. Am\nI remembering wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The passing of the white fountain causes unprecented tides, earthquakes,\nand tsunamis, drowning Nessus and the House Absolute before the expanded\nicecaps have time to melt back into the sea.\n\nThe renewed Sun doubtless melts them, raising sea levels, but everything\nnear the coasts would already be wrecked and then some." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, it's been a while.\n\nNot to throw cold water (sorry) on a promising speculation, but apparently\nin clear areas of the ocean, 90% of sunlight is absorbed in the first 33 m, whereas in biologically productive areas, that depth is in the\nsingle digits.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=pride+ourselves+in%2Fpride+ourselves+on&year_start\u001800&year_end 00&corpus\u0018&smoothing=3&share>\nSo even if the New Sun was ten times brighter than Old Sun (Leigh Brackett moment there), the sea monsters wouldn't have had to move much deeper. Of course if they were caught by surprise, stunned by those tides and\nearthquakes, and the like..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still, what happens in the upper levels influences what happens below. I'm \nnot sure what Abaia lives on, but there would be consequences for the whole \nfood chain, even if it meant just some adjustments, see the diagram at \nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient_cycle#Ecological_recycling." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T00:38:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<518BCBE6.5060001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And there does seem to be a somewhat organic nature\nto the interior of the ship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: .I agree, it might even be made largely of wood!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, well, there is that which I had considered (IIRC, ostensibly\nthe wood decks are supposed to be for cold resistance?)\n\nBut I was thinking more about how the inside of the ship changes and\nadjusts to its current inhabitants, how Tzadkiel's voice when first\nheard by Severian seems to emanate from everywhere and also that\nflying thing which sprays Severian with what is later called digestive\nfluid.\n\nInitially I assumed the flying thing wanted to eat Severian itself,\nthough it doesn't. But what if it served the Ship as an analog to the \ngastric parietal cells which secrete acid in our stomach. That might make \nSidero analogous to an immune cell while jibers would be analogous\nto cancer cells, etc. Ah, well, I guess it all hinges on whether the Ship\nlooks like an island-sized angelic being when seen from a distance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When continents founder even Leviathan maybe left high and dry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm yep. Also, there are suggestions that some of the megatherians on\nUrth live in/under the continents, not just in the ocean. Had be a way\nof getting rid of them also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: So even if the New Sun was ten times brighter than Old Sun \n(Leigh Brackett moment there), the sea monsters wouldn't have had to move much >deeper. Of course if they were caught by surprise, stunned by those tides and \nearthquakes, and the like..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I do think the BotNS was intended, in part, to bring a bit of science\ninto the stories of ancient mythology and the Bible. But how Noah's flood was able to rid the earth of ancient evil, demonic beings and the Nephilim offspring is not covered so clearly in this story. We are given the continents foundering, the \"waves of gravitation\", the flood waters themselves, the warmth, the light of the New Sun, and perhaps even the suggestion of a massive change in salinity of the oceans. I guess we'll have to make due with those\nthings.\n\nWhen we first meet Juturna, she is a fresh-water \"fish\" so maybe that's how she survives in the de-salinized waters of Ushas. Of course mythical Abaia is specifically a fresh-water eel....And The Mother seems to be doing well in the golden light of Blue.....I dunno.\n\nOh well, anyway... I think science will only take us so far on this question. I think we ultimately just have to say, \"well, Noah's Flood worked in such and such a way on earth so Severian's Flood worked in a similar physical/spiritual way on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<518C43D2.4050600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-10T00:48:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/9/2013 8:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHeh, well, there is that which I had considered (IIRC, ostensibly\nthe wood decks are supposed to be for cold resistance?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If so, I smell an homage to /Scanners Live in Vain./" } ] }, { "message_id": "<518C6949.7080208@btconnect.com>", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T03:28:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<518C43D2.4050600@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "???? I don't see it - can you explain?\n\nhartshorn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/05/2013 01:48, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIf so, I smell an homage to /Scanners Live in Vain./" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3709a92d6f9f53e25675b12a445d9f21.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T05:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<518C6949.7080208@btconnect.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 9, 2013 22:28, Andy Robertson wrote:\n???? I don't see it - can you explain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the story, ships travel through a medium that inflicts horrible, almost\nuniversally fatal pain that requires frozen passengers to travel under the\ncare of crewmen with nigh-perpetual nerve blocks until it is discovered\nthat ship hulls lined with lesser living things shield the interior while\nthe bunnies or oysters or whatever die instead; wood/trees perhaps in\nTzadkiel's case.\n\nhttp://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/1416521461/1416521461___5.htm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T12:19:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<3709a92d6f9f53e25675b12a445d9f21.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: In the story, ships travel through a medium that inflicts horrible, \nalmost universally fatal pain that requires frozen passengers to travel under the\ncare of crewmen with nigh-perpetual nerve blocks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny how perceptions have changed. When I was young, the assumption was that \nhuman space travel was so important and necessary we'd have to suffer any long, cryogenic \nsleep, mutating cosmic rays, interstellar pain, or other miseries to accomplish the goal.\n\nIn more recent days, G.W. Bush is practically laughed out of office for suggesting we put\na man on Mars. And despite all the SF of my childhood, and the amazing accomplishment of \nearly space travel, I must concur with the majority: human bodies are terribly impractical \nspace cargo. We might as well let the robots do that job. Send Jonah and Ossipago and Sidero\nand chems and taluses out there and keep the people on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7663E0B3E8484CBD91850AE1666B4948@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T13:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In more recent days, G.W. Bush is practically laughed out of office for \nsuggesting we put\na man on Mars. And despite all the SF of my childhood, and the amazing \naccomplishment of\nearly space travel, I must concur with the majority: human bodies are \nterribly impractical\nspace cargo. We might as well let the robots do that job. Send Jonah and \nOssipago and Sidero\nand chems and taluses out there and keep the people on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of people are willing to sign up for a one-way trip to Mars (though I \nthink they are optimistic if they assume their life expectancy there would \nbe high).\n\nWhat I always find a little odd is that there is not anything like the same \ninterest in colonising the sea-bed. You'd think that would be easier, and \npossibly more useful. Are martians just that much cooler than mermen?\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<518CF5CA.9000008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-05-10T13:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<7663E0B3E8484CBD91850AE1666B4948@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/10/2013 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In more recent days, G.W. Bush is practically laughed out of office \nfor suggesting we put\na man on Mars. And despite all the SF of my childhood, and the \namazing accomplishment of\nearly space travel, I must concur with the majority: human bodies \nare terribly impractical\nspace cargo. We might as well let the robots do that job. Send Jonah \nand Ossipago and Sidero\nand chems and taluses out there and keep the people on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A lot of people are willing to sign up for a one-way trip to Mars \n(though I think they are optimistic if they assume their life \nexpectancy there would be high).\n\nWhat I always find a little odd is that there is not anything like the \nsame interest in colonising the sea-bed. You'd think that would be \neasier, and possibly more useful. Are martians just that much cooler \nthan mermen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it IS dark down there. You won't be bringing home any snapshots of \nsunsets. But you're right---a voyage to either place would be a \nclaustrophobic nightmare for many people, with one trip much shorter \nthan the other." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T16:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<518CF5CA.9000008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What I always find a little odd is that there is not anything like the same \ninterest in colonising the sea-bed. You'd think that would be easier, and \npossibly more useful. Are martians just that much cooler than mermen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think they must be. But I've always thought the same thing; if we really needed\nmore space to live, we've already got 75% of the earth's surface available, not to \nmention the depth factor. How deep would you have to go to be safe from storms but still\nget significant sunlight?\n\nOf course we really have no shortage of living space for humans on earth as the view from \nan airplane flight makes clear. Our population is limited by arable land, not space to live.\nPerhaps one day, the oceans will serve us in that capacity.\n\nDid a little research just for fun and if my calculations are correct, the entire 7 billion \nhuman population of the world could live fairly comfortably within the land area of France and\nGermany combined.\n\n(my definition of comfort was based on the population density of Los Angeles (7500/sq. mi.),\nwhich is a more comfortable place to live than New York (27,500/sq. mi) and far less crowded \nthan insane places like Delhi (75,512/sq. mi). or Manila (111,500/sq. mi)\n. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0BBA50B356534826A5AF240F135CF9A5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-05-10T17:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did a little research just for fun and if my calculations are correct, the \nentire 7 billion\nhuman population of the world could live fairly comfortably within the \nland area of France and\nGermany combined.\n\n(my definition of comfort was based on the population density of Los \nAngeles (7500/sq. mi.),\nwhich is a more comfortable place to live than New York (27,500/sq. mi) \nand far less crowded\nthan insane places like Delhi (75,512/sq. mi). or Manila (111,500/sq. mi)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With enough technology, perhaps arcologies would make even the higher \ndensities tolerable.\n\nThen there is _Stand On Zanzibar_ by John Brunner, though perhaps it has \ndated.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20130611175119.UMWG14322.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo305>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2013-06-11T17:51:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:28 PM 5/8/2013, Dan'l wrote:\nOddly, the 7th Day Adventists believe that Michael is Jesus in \ndisguise or something like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just happened to catch this. According to exegetes in many \ntraditions, in the Bible, \"Micha-el\" is simply the name of the Angel \nof Yahweh, who incarnate is Jesus Christ. This can be established by \nseveral lines of argument, the chief of which is comparing Jude verse \n9 with Zechariah 3:2. \"Archangel\" means \"chief messenger/angel,\" and \nreally there is only One of these.\n\nMichael is the name given to the Angel of Yahweh as the Angelic \nOverlord of Israel. A separate angel, Gabriel, is Angelic Overlord of \nthe empire set up in Daniel 2 that is ruled successively by Babylon, \nPersia, Greece, and Rome. It is in Luke, the gospel to the gentiles, \nthat Gabriel appears by name.\n\nConfusion over all this has led to Michael's being regarded as a \ncreaturely angel, and then the addition of new \"archangels\" like \nRaphael. Of course, if one wishes, he can have it both ways, since \n\"Micha-El\" is simply a name, and could be that of preincarnate Christ \nand another creature as well. Wolfe, being Roman Catholic, is \nunlikely to disagree with his liturgy and so would regard Michael as \na created angel, even if he also agreed that in the Bible the name is \ngiven to the preincarnate Christ.\n\nFWIW\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-06-17T12:07:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cumaean", "in_reply_to": "<20130611175119.UMWG14322.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo305>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan: Michael is the name given to the Angel of Yahweh as the Angelic \nOverlord of Israel. A separate angel, Gabriel, is Angelic Overlord of \nthe empire set up in Daniel 2 that is ruled successively by Babylon, \nPersia, Greece, and Rome.,,,,, Of course, if one wishes, he can have it both ways,\nsince \"Micha-El\" is simply a name, and could be that of preincarnate Christ \nand another creature as well. Wolfe, being Roman Catholic, is unlikely to disagree\nwith his liturgy and so would regard Michael as a created angel, even if he also \nagreed that in the Bible the name is given to the preincarnate Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is very interesting. My first thought was about the notable fact that Dr. Talos\nplays Gabriel in his own play. I think his red hair and fiendish genius in the arts \nand sciences, plus his superhuman knowledge of Urth's history and future connect him \nto a couple other shadowy characters (Fechin and Inire). His vulpine nature might\nconnect to the Thracian worship of Dionysus which involved the fox. And surely Father\nInire is the de facto ruler of The Commonwealth for the past thousand years or so.\n\nWhen I hear about an angel being given dominion over an earthly realm, I think this \nsurely must be a fallen angel. It is my understanding true and lofty angels must \ngenerally remain in the heavenly realm (sorta like B, F and O). An angel would have \nto fall to get very deeply involved in non-spiritual human affairs on earth. Yet how \ncould Gabriel be a fallen angel/demon?\n\nI think Wolfe addresses this issue in BotNS with Tzadkiel being (like angels) a\nplural being. One aspect of him/her can rule on Yesod while another rules on the \nShip (while another aspect rules on Urth, imho).\n\nIn regard to Michael being a \"preincarnate Christ\" I can't help but think that is\nrelevant in that I think the whole of BotNS is meant to represent the pre-christian\nperiod of earth (Urth being a technologically advanced but spiritually stunted \nversion of earth). Of course the subject of this thread is named for one of the\nreputed earliest harbingers of the coming of Christ. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }